1 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:23,170 Speaker 1: Pushkin. According to survey, seventy one percent of Republicans and 2 00:00:23,210 --> 00:00:26,690 Speaker 1: fifty five percent of Democrats now regard the opposition party 3 00:00:26,690 --> 00:00:31,930 Speaker 1: as a force leading to national decline. In a world 4 00:00:31,970 --> 00:00:36,010 Speaker 1: gone haywire, sometimes art is the only thing that can 5 00:00:36,050 --> 00:00:38,970 Speaker 1: make sense of it all. Survey after survey has shown 6 00:00:38,970 --> 00:00:42,330 Speaker 1: that Republicans and Democrats now view each other not simply 7 00:00:42,370 --> 00:00:47,410 Speaker 1: as wrong, but as malevolent. This is the Chronicles of Now, 8 00:00:47,730 --> 00:00:50,930 Speaker 1: where we ask writers to dream up short stories inspired 9 00:00:50,970 --> 00:00:54,770 Speaker 1: by the news. I'm Ashley Ford. This family ordinarily does 10 00:00:54,810 --> 00:00:59,290 Speaker 1: not talk about politics, but this campaign in election were different, 11 00:00:59,450 --> 00:01:03,250 Speaker 1: and that's adding a whole other, thick, viscous layer of stress. 12 00:01:04,330 --> 00:01:08,410 Speaker 1: Polarization is nothing new in America, and in twenty twenty, 13 00:01:08,570 --> 00:01:12,970 Speaker 1: between pandemic, the recession, and the coming election, things are 14 00:01:12,970 --> 00:01:17,130 Speaker 1: getting really tense out there. Even the simple gesture wearing 15 00:01:17,130 --> 00:01:20,930 Speaker 1: a mosque has become passes on marriages where partners don't 16 00:01:20,930 --> 00:01:26,250 Speaker 1: share well the same political views. There is some treacherous times. 17 00:01:27,010 --> 00:01:32,530 Speaker 1: We are a country divided, and oftentimes that division can 18 00:01:32,570 --> 00:01:37,450 Speaker 1: be seen within one family. That's j Courtney Sullivan. She's 19 00:01:37,490 --> 00:01:40,490 Speaker 1: the author of five novels, and her latest Friends and 20 00:01:40,570 --> 00:01:44,690 Speaker 1: Strangers just hit the New York Times bestseller List. I'm 21 00:01:44,770 --> 00:01:50,130 Speaker 1: always interested in how are the bigger political and world 22 00:01:50,130 --> 00:01:53,490 Speaker 1: events sort of playing out in the lives of everyday people. 23 00:01:54,090 --> 00:01:58,170 Speaker 1: When she turned her attention to America's polarization, her way 24 00:01:58,250 --> 00:02:02,490 Speaker 1: into the topic was through birds. Scientists are out with 25 00:02:02,610 --> 00:02:06,530 Speaker 1: a stark new warning about the disappearance of billions of 26 00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:10,690 Speaker 1: birds in the US and Canada nine, which works out 27 00:02:10,730 --> 00:02:13,770 Speaker 1: to almost three billion birds in less than fifty years. 28 00:02:15,050 --> 00:02:20,010 Speaker 1: Scientists say habitat reduction, pesticides, and cats are the likely 29 00:02:20,050 --> 00:02:25,010 Speaker 1: culprits us. In other words, but like all news today, 30 00:02:25,410 --> 00:02:28,690 Speaker 1: your take on the missing birds likely depends on where 31 00:02:28,730 --> 00:02:32,730 Speaker 1: you heard about it, Fox or CNN, the New York Times, 32 00:02:32,890 --> 00:02:36,810 Speaker 1: or the Daily Caller Rachel Maddow or Tucker Carlson, which 33 00:02:36,810 --> 00:02:40,690 Speaker 1: got Courtney thinking, you can't know what you are not seeing, 34 00:02:41,090 --> 00:02:44,410 Speaker 1: And I don't think many people in this country are 35 00:02:44,530 --> 00:02:49,650 Speaker 1: getting the full picture, including people in our own families. 36 00:03:01,010 --> 00:03:04,650 Speaker 1: My oldest, clearest memory dates back to the summer my 37 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:08,410 Speaker 1: sister and I turn mine and our mother brought down 38 00:03:08,490 --> 00:03:13,890 Speaker 1: her mother's copy of the Birds of North America. It 39 00:03:13,930 --> 00:03:17,570 Speaker 1: was not some child's plaything, but a guide for serious 40 00:03:17,610 --> 00:03:26,930 Speaker 1: adult enthusiasts, beautiful with hand painted watercolor illustrations. The book 41 00:03:27,010 --> 00:03:30,050 Speaker 1: was a bribe, and we knew it. It could be 42 00:03:30,170 --> 00:03:34,090 Speaker 1: ours mine and my sisters if we promised not to fight. 43 00:03:37,170 --> 00:03:41,250 Speaker 1: Door and I could never get along. We shared the 44 00:03:41,330 --> 00:03:44,010 Speaker 1: room with the pink wallpaper at the top of the stairs, 45 00:03:44,810 --> 00:03:48,530 Speaker 1: and in that room we bickered, we hollered. She tore 46 00:03:48,570 --> 00:03:50,850 Speaker 1: out a chunk of my hair, and I put a 47 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:56,810 Speaker 1: pillow over her face while she slept. But our grandmother's 48 00:03:56,810 --> 00:04:00,090 Speaker 1: book intrigued us into behaving, at least for a time. 49 00:04:01,010 --> 00:04:04,490 Speaker 1: We wrote our names inside, right under the spot where 50 00:04:04,490 --> 00:04:08,490 Speaker 1: she had done the same. She died before we were born. 51 00:04:09,130 --> 00:04:13,090 Speaker 1: Our mother had told us how she loved the birds, 52 00:04:13,610 --> 00:04:16,850 Speaker 1: the way they flew free, darting around cows in their 53 00:04:16,850 --> 00:04:21,890 Speaker 1: pens and pastures, lounging on fence posts, asking nothing of her. 54 00:04:23,690 --> 00:04:26,490 Speaker 1: Whenever our mother saw a cardinal through the kitchen window, 55 00:04:26,890 --> 00:04:29,810 Speaker 1: she'd say it was her mother stopping by to say hello. 56 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:36,690 Speaker 1: Dora and I memorize the birds of North America like 57 00:04:36,770 --> 00:04:43,810 Speaker 1: a book of prayers. Starlings and sparrows and robins, blue jays, blackbirds, 58 00:04:43,810 --> 00:04:48,490 Speaker 1: and warblers. By September we knew them all on site 59 00:04:49,850 --> 00:04:55,170 Speaker 1: ever since. Birds are what we have in common, birds 60 00:04:55,210 --> 00:05:03,250 Speaker 1: and not much else. My sister and I have never 61 00:05:03,290 --> 00:05:07,050 Speaker 1: lived more than three miles apart, but we've gone whole 62 00:05:07,210 --> 00:05:12,010 Speaker 1: years without speaking. Dora started watching what she calls the 63 00:05:12,170 --> 00:05:16,410 Speaker 1: news after Harold died. Among the things, she now believes 64 00:05:17,210 --> 00:05:20,050 Speaker 1: that there is a floor at Mercy Hospital just for 65 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:24,530 Speaker 1: Mexicans where they get their treatment for free, that Hillary 66 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:27,650 Speaker 1: Clinton runs a sex trafficking ring out of a pizza 67 00:05:27,690 --> 00:05:32,530 Speaker 1: shop in Washington, DC, That people all over this country 68 00:05:32,530 --> 00:05:39,930 Speaker 1: are somehow aborting babies after they're born. Last Thanksgiving, she 69 00:05:40,050 --> 00:05:43,810 Speaker 1: told some whopper and I said that's not true, and 70 00:05:43,890 --> 00:05:46,370 Speaker 1: she said it is. I saw it on the news 71 00:05:47,050 --> 00:05:50,210 Speaker 1: and I said, that's not the news, it's propaganda for 72 00:05:50,250 --> 00:05:53,490 Speaker 1: people who don't know how to think. She walked right 73 00:05:53,490 --> 00:05:56,170 Speaker 1: out of my house, then came back in to get 74 00:05:56,210 --> 00:06:04,290 Speaker 1: the pie she'd brought, and walked out again. I initiated 75 00:06:04,330 --> 00:06:08,250 Speaker 1: the truce stop talking about it, so we don't have 76 00:06:08,290 --> 00:06:13,010 Speaker 1: to stop talking king altogether. But even polite conversation, if 77 00:06:13,050 --> 00:06:15,690 Speaker 1: you make it long enough, comes back around to the 78 00:06:15,770 --> 00:06:18,530 Speaker 1: question of how to be a person in this world. 79 00:06:20,290 --> 00:06:22,690 Speaker 1: I called Dora this morning when I saw the headline, 80 00:06:23,810 --> 00:06:27,530 Speaker 1: three billion fewer birds on this continent now than fifty 81 00:06:27,650 --> 00:06:33,330 Speaker 1: years ago, three billion. Reading it felt like reaching the 82 00:06:33,410 --> 00:06:35,890 Speaker 1: end of a mystery novel and looking back at the 83 00:06:35,970 --> 00:06:46,930 Speaker 1: clues you missed. Anyone who has lived long enough will 84 00:06:46,970 --> 00:06:51,770 Speaker 1: tell you it isn't like it used to be. Remember 85 00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:56,410 Speaker 1: the bats, how they swooped down at sunset? Dora and 86 00:06:56,490 --> 00:07:02,650 Speaker 1: I have asked one another, Remember bird's song in springtime, 87 00:07:02,890 --> 00:07:05,410 Speaker 1: so loud you had to cover your ears to think. 88 00:07:08,090 --> 00:07:11,330 Speaker 1: Remember when a flow of crows flying overhead would dark 89 00:07:11,450 --> 00:07:21,010 Speaker 1: in the afternoon sky. Of course, Dora was horrified when 90 00:07:21,050 --> 00:07:24,090 Speaker 1: I told her about the three billion birds. But when 91 00:07:24,090 --> 00:07:27,410 Speaker 1: I mentioned, not for the first time, the little Swedish 92 00:07:27,410 --> 00:07:30,130 Speaker 1: girl demanding that we fix it all now, or else 93 00:07:30,170 --> 00:07:34,450 Speaker 1: the legacy we leave will be destruction. Dora said, why 94 00:07:34,490 --> 00:07:40,370 Speaker 1: do you make everything political? Some things just are I 95 00:07:40,490 --> 00:07:43,410 Speaker 1: hung up on her. I won't be the one to 96 00:07:43,450 --> 00:07:51,890 Speaker 1: smooth things over this time either. The city of Des 97 00:07:51,890 --> 00:07:57,170 Speaker 1: Moines used to be just that, beyond it, farmland punctuated 98 00:07:57,170 --> 00:08:00,650 Speaker 1: it every here and there by, a tiny town. Now 99 00:08:00,690 --> 00:08:04,370 Speaker 1: the space between places is full of big box stores 100 00:08:04,410 --> 00:08:08,090 Speaker 1: and big identical houses. Either on. My grandson and his 101 00:08:08,130 --> 00:08:12,610 Speaker 1: wife live in I can never remember which driveway is theirs. 102 00:08:13,450 --> 00:08:18,690 Speaker 1: There are no trees anywhere. The lawns are an unnatural 103 00:08:18,930 --> 00:08:25,570 Speaker 1: chemical green cuts short like military haircuts. My grandson's wife 104 00:08:25,610 --> 00:08:30,050 Speaker 1: sends pictures of deer and wild turkeys wandering lost down 105 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:35,330 Speaker 1: the street. I can't miss what you've never seen. Maybe 106 00:08:35,330 --> 00:08:37,410 Speaker 1: that's why they're not as angry as they should be. 107 00:08:38,850 --> 00:08:42,050 Speaker 1: Makes me want to chain myself to a bulldozer before 108 00:08:42,050 --> 00:08:46,730 Speaker 1: they can plow under one more field. Old age has 109 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:55,490 Speaker 1: turned me into a radical. Some afternoons, the Cardinal alights 110 00:08:55,530 --> 00:08:59,970 Speaker 1: on a tree branch outside my kitchen window. It reminds 111 00:09:00,010 --> 00:09:05,370 Speaker 1: me of my grandmother, my mother on a good day, 112 00:09:05,650 --> 00:09:12,890 Speaker 1: Dora too. What will happen when the proof that any 113 00:09:12,930 --> 00:09:17,050 Speaker 1: of us was ever here only exists between the pages 114 00:09:17,090 --> 00:09:20,970 Speaker 1: of an old book, the provenance of which no one 115 00:09:21,010 --> 00:09:36,410 Speaker 1: alive can recall. Then later on not even that that 116 00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:40,970 Speaker 1: was proof. By j Courtney Sullivan, the narrator with Cindy 117 00:09:41,050 --> 00:09:45,730 Speaker 1: Catz Hi Courtney Hi Ashley. The first thing I want 118 00:09:45,730 --> 00:09:48,610 Speaker 1: to say, honestly, it is just damn girl. You start 119 00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:52,050 Speaker 1: with a story about sisters bonding over birds, but it 120 00:09:52,330 --> 00:09:56,210 Speaker 1: very quickly morphs into a story about political polarization. And 121 00:09:56,250 --> 00:09:59,690 Speaker 1: then you work in our own oblivion right there at 122 00:09:59,770 --> 00:10:04,090 Speaker 1: the end, and it's about two pages. I'm still recovering. Ah, 123 00:10:04,250 --> 00:10:08,130 Speaker 1: thank you. One of the things that I love about 124 00:10:08,210 --> 00:10:10,810 Speaker 1: this story is that the sisters you know, never really 125 00:10:10,970 --> 00:10:14,930 Speaker 1: did get along, yeah by growing up in the same 126 00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:20,290 Speaker 1: environment except for this bond over birds, and their political 127 00:10:20,370 --> 00:10:23,450 Speaker 1: differences actually seem to have a lot more to do 128 00:10:23,570 --> 00:10:28,530 Speaker 1: with the media. Dora consumes, how much blame do you 129 00:10:28,610 --> 00:10:34,290 Speaker 1: put on media for our extreme political polarization in this country? 130 00:10:34,450 --> 00:10:38,730 Speaker 1: Right now? I want to be fair, you know, fair 131 00:10:38,730 --> 00:10:41,370 Speaker 1: and balanced, as Fox News would say, And I actually 132 00:10:41,370 --> 00:10:44,330 Speaker 1: listen to a lot of conservative talk radio and I 133 00:10:44,370 --> 00:10:47,130 Speaker 1: watch Fox News even though it's probably going to take 134 00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:49,650 Speaker 1: years off my life, because I want to see what 135 00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:52,930 Speaker 1: are both sides saying and what are people hearing. But 136 00:10:53,090 --> 00:10:56,610 Speaker 1: I really believe this, not just because I am a 137 00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:59,970 Speaker 1: left leaning individual, but I truly think that Fox News 138 00:11:00,010 --> 00:11:04,530 Speaker 1: has created so much damage to this culture and continues 139 00:11:04,570 --> 00:11:07,850 Speaker 1: to do so. And I have conservative people in my 140 00:11:07,890 --> 00:11:10,930 Speaker 1: own life whom I love, who are very smart, well 141 00:11:11,090 --> 00:11:16,090 Speaker 1: educated people, and they are still kind of reciting talking 142 00:11:16,130 --> 00:11:19,650 Speaker 1: points that they hear on Fox News, and it's terrifying 143 00:11:19,730 --> 00:11:24,010 Speaker 1: to me. One of the things that I loved about 144 00:11:24,010 --> 00:11:27,570 Speaker 1: this story, you know, beyond the sisters and their relationship, 145 00:11:27,730 --> 00:11:29,730 Speaker 1: is the mention of birds. I'll be honest, I'm a 146 00:11:29,730 --> 00:11:33,970 Speaker 1: bird person, but are you a fellow bird person? When 147 00:11:34,210 --> 00:11:39,330 Speaker 1: this news story came out about three billion fewer birds 148 00:11:39,890 --> 00:11:42,930 Speaker 1: for some reason, I was reading the news stories, but 149 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:47,170 Speaker 1: I also was reading the comments. They say, never read 150 00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:49,130 Speaker 1: the comments, but when you didn't write it, you can. 151 00:11:49,330 --> 00:11:54,170 Speaker 1: And I was really amazed because there were so many 152 00:11:54,330 --> 00:11:59,850 Speaker 1: commenters telling stories about the birds of their youth, and 153 00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:03,250 Speaker 1: one detail in particular, which I think ended up in 154 00:12:03,290 --> 00:12:07,250 Speaker 1: the story. You know, someone said, remember when the sky 155 00:12:07,570 --> 00:12:11,290 Speaker 1: would just be darkened by a flock of birds going overhead? 156 00:12:11,770 --> 00:12:14,210 Speaker 1: And I thought, I've no, I don't remember that. This 157 00:12:14,250 --> 00:12:16,250 Speaker 1: person is obviously much older than I am. I never 158 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:19,250 Speaker 1: I never saw that. But I think this idea that 159 00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:22,290 Speaker 1: we can't miss what we don't know exists, we can't 160 00:12:22,330 --> 00:12:25,530 Speaker 1: miss what we've never seen, is very scary when it 161 00:12:25,570 --> 00:12:30,130 Speaker 1: comes to issues of animals and the planet in general. 162 00:12:30,690 --> 00:12:33,130 Speaker 1: You know, you can't fight against what you don't know 163 00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:35,650 Speaker 1: as a problem. Right when I wrote it, I was 164 00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:38,370 Speaker 1: living in Brooklyn, and I guess birds weren't a huge 165 00:12:38,410 --> 00:12:41,970 Speaker 1: part of my life. And we've since moved to the Albany, 166 00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:45,530 Speaker 1: New York area, which is very green, and we have 167 00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:48,090 Speaker 1: so many birds in our yards. Once you start seeing 168 00:12:48,130 --> 00:12:51,810 Speaker 1: them and seeing the variety, it makes you wonder, you know, 169 00:12:52,370 --> 00:12:56,730 Speaker 1: what more there might have been to see. It's immeasurable. 170 00:12:56,970 --> 00:13:00,570 Speaker 1: I think what we lose just by not knowing it 171 00:13:00,650 --> 00:13:03,530 Speaker 1: was there for us, yes, and not knowing it was 172 00:13:03,610 --> 00:13:07,290 Speaker 1: there for us to enjoy. Yes. The sisters seem to 173 00:13:07,330 --> 00:13:11,410 Speaker 1: have suffered a permanent sure in this story, like we 174 00:13:11,450 --> 00:13:13,810 Speaker 1: don't know if they're ever going to talk to each 175 00:13:13,850 --> 00:13:17,290 Speaker 1: other again, but don't we need to be talking to 176 00:13:17,410 --> 00:13:20,570 Speaker 1: the doors of the world? Like that is the position 177 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:23,130 Speaker 1: of quite a few people, is that if we give 178 00:13:23,210 --> 00:13:26,530 Speaker 1: up on the doras we lose everything. Do you think 179 00:13:26,530 --> 00:13:29,570 Speaker 1: it's too late for that? Are we too divide it 180 00:13:29,610 --> 00:13:32,850 Speaker 1: to come back together? I guess I probably have kind 181 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:35,170 Speaker 1: of a pessimistic take on this, you know. I do 182 00:13:35,330 --> 00:13:40,770 Speaker 1: often see this sentiment expressed maybe on Twitter, and you know, 183 00:13:40,810 --> 00:13:44,650 Speaker 1: the sense of like, if you have these conservative people 184 00:13:44,690 --> 00:13:49,530 Speaker 1: in your life, you must convince them. And it's really 185 00:13:49,570 --> 00:13:52,530 Speaker 1: difficult because personally I have those people in my life, 186 00:13:52,570 --> 00:13:56,050 Speaker 1: and if you said to my conservative uncle, don't talk 187 00:13:56,090 --> 00:13:58,530 Speaker 1: to Courtney anymore unless she agrees to vote for Trump. 188 00:13:58,690 --> 00:14:01,210 Speaker 1: I'm never going to He's never going to convince me. 189 00:14:01,730 --> 00:14:04,810 Speaker 1: It's really hard because I want to believe that we 190 00:14:04,850 --> 00:14:07,290 Speaker 1: can talk our way to agreement on a lot of 191 00:14:07,290 --> 00:14:10,450 Speaker 1: these things. But honestly, I don't believe it. I mean, 192 00:14:10,610 --> 00:14:13,810 Speaker 1: and that doesn't mean that there aren't important conversations to 193 00:14:13,890 --> 00:14:16,370 Speaker 1: be had. You know, in my own family, even there 194 00:14:16,450 --> 00:14:19,570 Speaker 1: are people who are conservative, but they're young, much younger 195 00:14:19,570 --> 00:14:23,370 Speaker 1: than I am, and they are reasonable, and I see 196 00:14:23,370 --> 00:14:26,450 Speaker 1: hope there. I see hope in having conversations with them, 197 00:14:26,850 --> 00:14:30,250 Speaker 1: because even though they identify as conservative, there's so much 198 00:14:30,250 --> 00:14:34,090 Speaker 1: common ground and they're not okay with what's happening in 199 00:14:34,130 --> 00:14:38,130 Speaker 1: this country in a lot of ways. So to my mind, yes, 200 00:14:38,210 --> 00:14:40,690 Speaker 1: there are conversations to be had, there's common ground to 201 00:14:40,730 --> 00:14:43,410 Speaker 1: be found, and there are a lot of people who 202 00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:46,770 Speaker 1: we shouldn't like, let go of or just say forget it. 203 00:14:46,770 --> 00:14:49,130 Speaker 1: We're never going to get there. But there are also 204 00:14:49,170 --> 00:14:52,170 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are just there. They're fully baked, 205 00:14:52,170 --> 00:14:54,130 Speaker 1: and I don't think we're going to get them, unfortunately, 206 00:14:54,290 --> 00:14:57,410 Speaker 1: much as they will never get us. We like the truth. 207 00:14:57,610 --> 00:15:03,650 Speaker 1: I dare on the Chronicles of Now. We enjoy good Courtney, 208 00:15:03,770 --> 00:15:06,170 Speaker 1: thank you so much for that story, and thank you 209 00:15:06,250 --> 00:15:08,650 Speaker 1: for coming on the Chronicles of Now. I've really enjoyed 210 00:15:08,690 --> 00:15:11,170 Speaker 1: this common versation me too, thank you for having me. 211 00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:15,650 Speaker 1: You can read my full interview with Jay Courtney Sullivan 212 00:15:15,770 --> 00:15:19,610 Speaker 1: on our website Chronicles dot Fm, where you can also 213 00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:22,890 Speaker 1: read the story you just heard and other short fiction 214 00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:27,170 Speaker 1: torn from today's headlines. Our sound designer and composer is 215 00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:30,970 Speaker 1: Bart Warshaw, our producer is Curtis Fox, and our associate 216 00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:35,450 Speaker 1: producer is Emily Rostick. Tyler Cabott is the executive producer 217 00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:39,210 Speaker 1: and founder of Chronicles of NAP for Pushkin Industries. Our 218 00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:43,730 Speaker 1: executive producer is Leetel Malaud. Special thanks to Jacob Weisberg, 219 00:15:44,130 --> 00:15:48,810 Speaker 1: Carly Migliori, Heather Faine, and Eric Sandler for the Chronicles 220 00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:51,930 Speaker 1: of Now podcast. I'm Ashley Ford. Thanks for listening.