Speaker 1: Hey there, folks, do you have a problem. Hey, if
Speaker 1: snow White is not white, welcome to this episode of
Speaker 1: Amy and TJ. What is the big Well, Robes, this
Speaker 1: is a huge, big production this week, the big movie
Speaker 1: coming out Snow White with a character that is not
Speaker 1: white as the lead.
Speaker 2: You had a problem, And do you know what? I
Speaker 2: hesitate because I feel like, yes.
Speaker 1: And no, it's not black or white.
Speaker 2: That is actually the truth, you know, because it isn't
Speaker 2: that simple, and a lot of it for me is
Speaker 2: the why behind it. And yeah, yeah, and also look,
Speaker 2: I think we all agree, everyone agrees there needs to
Speaker 2: be more stories with people of different races and religions
Speaker 2: and creeds and background so that people can look to
Speaker 2: and have characters to rally behind and see themselves in.
Speaker 2: But I'm all for creating these new stories. And if
Speaker 2: you want to tell stories of female empowerment and showing
Speaker 2: girls and boys with different backgrounds succeeding and winning and thriving,
Speaker 2: and that's awesome. Who wouldn't love that? But rewriting and
Speaker 2: changing and you're just going to cause controversy, You're going
Speaker 2: to piss people off. And I just don't know why
Speaker 2: it's necessary to retell old stories and change them and
Speaker 2: then expect people to embrace them.
Speaker 1: See that is where okay to that point, So let's
Speaker 1: just stick with snow White. We have, there's plenty to
Speaker 1: get there. Let's just stick with the beloved snow White.
Speaker 1: If you change and again, Rachel Zeckler is the lead
Speaker 1: character here. She's playing snow white, young lady of Polish
Speaker 1: and Columbian descent. I got that right, But no, her
Speaker 1: skin is not white as snow. This has been going
Speaker 1: on for years. When he announced she was the lead character,
Speaker 1: people took issue with Disney. People took issue with her.
Speaker 1: She was the lot of hate was directed her way,
Speaker 1: certainly unfairly.
Speaker 2: She was a breakout star, a young star for being
Speaker 2: cast in Steven Spielberg's rendition remake of West Side Story,
Speaker 2: where she played Maria, a girl of Hispanic descent. That
Speaker 2: makes perfect sense. She was perfectly cast for that role.
Speaker 2: She's an amazing talent, incredible voice, and she fit the
Speaker 2: role as it was traditionally written. And that works.
Speaker 1: Okay, So she comes along. Of course, a lot of
Speaker 1: people just upset, why do you have to take this story?
Speaker 1: And when Disney announced they're doing a live action version.
Speaker 1: Why do you have to take this lead character and
Speaker 1: make her something other than what we know her as
Speaker 1: remember her as, and she historically was a character who
Speaker 1: had skin as white as snow now, so let me
Speaker 1: just stick with that initial thing. Should snow white ever
Speaker 1: be played ever by anyone other than someone who looks
Speaker 1: like they have white skin?
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that. I really don't.
Speaker 2: I just I don't like the idea of them doing
Speaker 2: it deliberately to be woke. That is annoying to me.
Speaker 2: I think there was incredible success. We talked about this
Speaker 2: with what Linn Manuel did with Hamiltons. I thought that
Speaker 2: was so cool. You made history interesting when you only
Speaker 2: have a bunch of white men, and now you make
Speaker 2: them cool honestly by giving a different kind of music,
Speaker 2: a different kind of reflection on history. That all made
Speaker 2: brilliant sense to me. This feels contrived and like almost
Speaker 2: deliberately controversial and woke it. They had plenty of people
Speaker 2: they could have.
Speaker 1: Chosen deliberately placating. Is that yes?
Speaker 2: And I think that is what's irritating.
Speaker 1: Okay, plenty of people they could have chosen. Here'sn't a
Speaker 1: thought what if she was the best.
Speaker 2: Then that's different.
Speaker 1: What if they were I don't know this, No one
Speaker 1: has said that. But what if they were able to
Speaker 1: look through all of their options and she actually crushed
Speaker 1: it and was the best option for this role. I
Speaker 1: do not know that. I don't know when Disney first
Speaker 1: set out to do a remake, if they said we
Speaker 1: don't want snow White to be white, I don't think.
Speaker 1: We don't know that was said. Was it open to everybody?
Speaker 1: I certainly would embrace if they open casting for snow
Speaker 1: White and they said everybody's welcome. Sure, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2: I don't have a problem with that either. I really don't.
Speaker 2: And I think if she is, and she may have
Speaker 2: been the absolute best person for the role, it just
Speaker 2: no one's said that. And I just wonder how deliberate
Speaker 2: it was to find someone specifically who was not white
Speaker 2: because they thought that would be cool. And that is
Speaker 2: at this point, that is I don't know how to
Speaker 2: feel about that. Look. I don't think that we have
Speaker 2: to stick to exactly look castings. We know from movies.
Speaker 2: You have a role, whoever wrote the role or wrote
Speaker 2: the screenplay has an idea of who the character is,
Speaker 2: and oftentimes if you look at scripts, they have a
Speaker 2: description of what the character looks like, so I don't
Speaker 2: obviously we know this was a character that was specifically
Speaker 2: written for a specific looking person, and therefore her character's
Speaker 2: name is snow White because as you pointed out, her
Speaker 2: skin was as white as snow. So this was a
Speaker 2: role that was written for that look. I can see
Speaker 2: why some people would take issue with it, because is
Speaker 2: this going too far? I think there is oftentimes when
Speaker 2: there is a need for diversity and a need for
Speaker 2: bigger and better and more interesting and more complete stories
Speaker 2: to be told, that's so true. But when you feel
Speaker 2: like it's an overcorrection, or if it's a decision made
Speaker 2: to be woke, that's when it feels inauthentic and a
Speaker 2: little icky. But I don't know. I don't know what
Speaker 2: the decision was behind it.
Speaker 1: Having a non white snow and white does it? No
Speaker 1: matter what? Is it ultimately going to do more good
Speaker 1: than it does harm in that there are going to
Speaker 1: be a lot more little girls looking at snow White
Speaker 1: and seeing themselves in this character, seeing themselves reflect it.
Speaker 1: Does this widen that full of inspiration? I think a
Speaker 1: little girl of color can certainly be inspired by seeing
Speaker 1: a white character and in the reverse, of course, but
Speaker 1: does that it help in that way? It can't hurt, obviously,
Speaker 1: but does it take away from is anybody turned off
Speaker 1: because snow white skin isn't white as snow in a
Speaker 1: movie opening this week?
Speaker 2: I think some people are turned.
Speaker 1: Off, I mean to be upset by I think so far. Okay,
Speaker 1: obviously they are, and that controversy has been out there
Speaker 1: now we're talking about just going back and forth on
Speaker 1: just what they call, I guess race switching, race swapping
Speaker 1: or something in Hollywood. But this movie has been in
Speaker 1: trouble for a number of reasons. Now Rachel Zegler and
Speaker 1: Gal Goadote, who stars in the movie as well. Look,
Speaker 1: they are worried now about this movie because these two
Speaker 1: actresses have said some things that have turned some people off.
Speaker 1: I guess Robes, as you have gotten more into it,
Speaker 1: I guess Rachel Zegler has more of a history of
Speaker 1: some comments that really turned people off.
Speaker 2: So it's interesting. Recently we've been hearing all about Gal Gadot,
Speaker 2: so that is what I know. She is an Israeli actress,
Speaker 2: and she has made pro Israel comments, which actually isn't
Speaker 2: that to me controversial. Given where she is from and
Speaker 2: where she was raised, it's not surprising her allegiances would
Speaker 2: be to her home country. However, that of course has
Speaker 2: brought the ire from Palestinian folks who say, hey, you
Speaker 2: need to also show some empathy and show some concern
Speaker 2: for the Palestinians in this conflict. So I get that controversy.
Speaker 2: What I hadn't realized until I really started digging a
Speaker 2: little bit deeper is Rachel Zegler's comments that have caused
Speaker 2: controversy have dated back since I believe many many years,
Speaker 2: because this has been a film in the work since
Speaker 2: twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, she's twenty three, is you know, so a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff she was a very old.
Speaker 2: She was young, and so she has put some things
Speaker 2: out on what's now known as X and then had
Speaker 2: to delete them. But yes, she has made some comments
Speaker 2: that have drawn ire in reference to modernizing the story
Speaker 2: of Snow White, and in reference to her political beliefs
Speaker 2: in this country and to her feelings on the Middle
Speaker 2: East conflict. So she's got a trifecta of comments that
Speaker 2: have caused some controversy.
Speaker 1: First of all, those are the three things your publicists say,
Speaker 1: don't touch these three things.
Speaker 2: So where do you want to do? You want to
Speaker 2: start with.
Speaker 1: What, you know, what I was the comments. Let me
Speaker 1: let me go with the specifically about the movie. First
Speaker 1: of all. Okay, and so if people didn't already give
Speaker 1: her much favor and our snow white fans, this didn't.
Speaker 2: Help correct So she well, first of all, the first
Speaker 2: tweet that I know that she had to delete on
Speaker 2: X was when she said, yes I am snow white. No,
Speaker 2: I am not bleaching my skin for the role. She
Speaker 2: had to delete that. That brought a lot of hate
Speaker 2: her way, as she said. Then she said, speaking of
Speaker 2: the original film, she said they were going to modernize it,
Speaker 2: but she said, but our version is a refreshing story
Speaker 2: about a young woman who has a function beyond someday
Speaker 2: my principle come. She's dreaming about the leader. She knows
Speaker 2: she can be all right. But then she went to
Speaker 2: go on and say that the nineteen thirty seven original
Speaker 2: version had a big focus on her love story with
Speaker 2: a guy who literally stalks her. Weird, weird, So we
Speaker 2: didn't do that this time. She also said she was
Speaker 2: scared of the original film. She watched it once, but
Speaker 2: she could never watch it again. So she for people
Speaker 2: who love the film, who grew up with the film,
Speaker 2: who feel a real sense of nostalgia about the film,
Speaker 2: she just kind of spit in their faces.
Speaker 1: So Prince Charming is his name? Yes?
Speaker 2: Correct?
Speaker 1: Is this the right guy?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Okay, he's a stalker, That's what she said. We have
Speaker 1: all come up with this dude, and he was a stalker.
Speaker 2: Do you know what? This reminds me of a beloved
Speaker 2: Christmas song that people now call a rape song. It's
Speaker 2: you know in I think we have to at least
Speaker 2: give some of these stories, even that song, a little
Speaker 2: bit of perspective that those times and look, even as
Speaker 2: someone my age I was, I grew up looking for
Speaker 2: Prince Charming. I understand why that narrative is outdated. I
Speaker 2: understand I have two daughters where we want to empower
Speaker 2: our young girls. But what's is it something so terrible
Speaker 2: to dream about a prince? Is it so terrible to
Speaker 2: have a prince kit with a kiss? Wake you up?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I get we're all trying. Like
Speaker 2: even Frozen went on to say that the love story
Speaker 2: was between sisters, not about a guy, and we're doing
Speaker 2: that a lot. We're seeing that a lot, and that's wonderful.
Speaker 2: But is it so wrong for a girl to fall
Speaker 2: in love with a guy and to be happy. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I just feel like sometimes we go too
Speaker 2: far in the other direction. So that upset a lot
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 1: So now those were tough, Well, those were tough. It
Speaker 1: almost sounds as if and you and I have been
Speaker 1: watching this a lot recently, guy, in anticipation. We've been
Speaker 1: watching some of the comments and the updates and the
Speaker 1: interviews she's been given, and it's one of the things
Speaker 1: she does was make sure she gives absolute respect to
Speaker 1: that previous version. Now she does, Now she does. She's
Speaker 1: so careful in what she says, and that poor thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know she's got to be terrified at
Speaker 1: this point because this is a two hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: million dollar movie. Yes, that is possibly in a little
Speaker 1: bit of trouble because of controversy.
Speaker 2: So she had all of that controversy right, and then
Speaker 2: when the elections were held just a few months ago,
Speaker 2: after November, she went back on to X and she
Speaker 2: had to delete this tweet. But I'm going to go ahead.
Speaker 2: Can I just say the expletive I'm sure they'll just
Speaker 2: leap me out.
Speaker 1: Well, if you have to ask, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2: Gonna say so. After the election, she put this out
Speaker 2: on x She tweeted, this is Rachel Zegler Trump and
Speaker 2: made Trump supporters and Trump voters and Trump himself never
Speaker 2: know peace.
Speaker 1: Okay, all those Trump supporters are moviegoers. You can't turn
Speaker 1: off half the country by Okay, maybe she made a mistake.
Speaker 1: I don't know what she was in her moment, but
Speaker 1: obviously she knows that was a.
Speaker 2: Bad she did oologized later. She deleted the post and
Speaker 2: said she let her emotions get the best of her. However,
Speaker 2: it's really hard to unsay some things like that. And
Speaker 2: to your point, more than half the country voted for
Speaker 2: President Trump. And now you're asking the entire country and
Speaker 2: frankly the world to come to your movie.
Speaker 1: Okay, what's the last one on the Then? Yes?
Speaker 2: And so. Then she also posted this on X She posted,
Speaker 2: free Palestine. I can't watch children die. I don't think
Speaker 2: that should be a hot take.
Speaker 1: Did she take that one down?
Speaker 2: I didn't see that she took that one down. And yes,
Speaker 2: she doubled down when asked about it to a magazine.
Speaker 2: That's when she said I can't watch children die. I
Speaker 2: don't think that should be a hot take, but yeah,
Speaker 2: she posted free Palestine.
Speaker 1: So as much was we talking about the movie. Getting
Speaker 1: back to what our debate really is about, is is
Speaker 1: it okay if snow White ain't white? And I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's gotten hotter because of her, not because
Speaker 1: she's non white, but because she's all right, we already
Speaker 1: don't like that you got the role, but now you're
Speaker 1: just giving us easy little bait to take here. Is
Speaker 1: it hotter because of some of that stuff?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think you know you pointed out her age.
Speaker 2: I have a daughter who is one year younger than her,
Speaker 2: and she's also very passionate about her beliefs. And I
Speaker 2: just think especially this younger generation. I sound old now,
Speaker 2: but with the empowerment of social media and TikTok and
Speaker 2: just feeling like you are protected by others who think
Speaker 2: like you and you don't recognize that there are so
Speaker 2: many others who don't think like you, and the backlash
Speaker 2: that that can create. I think there's a I don't
Speaker 2: want to be patronizing to say that she's naive, but
Speaker 2: she's twenty three and aren't you just inherently naive, even
Speaker 2: if you've been a movie star, and even if you've
Speaker 2: been in the public eye, you don't really understand fully
Speaker 2: the weight of your words. Perhaps, and maybe she is
Speaker 2: learning that the hard way, But I think there's this
Speaker 2: sense of empowerment. I can say what I want. It's
Speaker 2: my voice needs to be heard. I need to speak up.
Speaker 2: And so I'm sure she felt passionate and felt like
Speaker 2: she was doing something and speaking on behalf of people
Speaker 2: in her generation who aren't afraid to speak out.
Speaker 1: So to this point, with her as a lead character,
Speaker 1: we've seen this several times in some very famous and
Speaker 1: very controversial cases. But I asked that question at the top,
Speaker 1: is that, okay, if snow white isn't white? And I
Speaker 1: don't think this is a blanket question either, as I
Speaker 1: ask it, can anyone play anyone? Can any actor no
Speaker 1: eligibly play anyone? No, that is no a question? But
Speaker 1: why right? Based on I don't want to go with age,
Speaker 1: I mean, just.
Speaker 2: Take marginalized communities.
Speaker 1: I mean, where right Johnny Depp played Tanto?
Speaker 2: How long ago was that?
Speaker 1: Ten plus? I mean what was that? Probably fifteen?
Speaker 2: Exactly? The world has changed significantly when it comes to wokeism.
Speaker 1: In the last wint And played the ancient one in
Speaker 1: Doctor Strange that wasn't that long ago. What I'm saying is,
Speaker 1: when we go, when we think about it, sometimes there
Speaker 1: is a whitewashing that takes place that we don't necessarily
Speaker 1: get the same screaming and yelling about when it But
Speaker 1: when it's a white character, a famous white character that
Speaker 1: they tweak, there is a different type of backlash. I
Speaker 1: think folks would really understand why.
Speaker 2: Certainly, well, you've got snow white, then you've got like
Speaker 2: black Panther, right, so obviously it would never be okay
Speaker 2: if there was any kind of a remake where a
Speaker 2: white person would play anyone in Black.
Speaker 1: Panther, I would watch that show.
Speaker 2: But let me, what do you think about it? You know,
Speaker 2: do you feel like there is that anyone can play
Speaker 2: any role?
Speaker 1: Okay, let me throw a couple of factors in for you.
Speaker 1: Does it matter if it's a fictional or a real character.
Speaker 1: Does that actually make a difference? Possibly it does. Do
Speaker 1: you care if the race has changed if that character
Speaker 1: is a fictional character, a Superman, a whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: an Ariel, yeah, okay, versus a real person like Thomas Jefferson,
Speaker 1: George wash Ch Hamlin, that kind of a thing. It's
Speaker 1: tough to I hate to put Hamilton into this conversation
Speaker 1: because even Lynn Manuel admited this was a They weren't
Speaker 1: playing the guys necessarily. They had the names, but they
Speaker 1: were new, totally new iterations, so it was hard to
Speaker 1: just say he's You're not given Thomas Jefferson's words. So
Speaker 1: that's a hard comparison. But we saw an easy switch,
Speaker 1: and plus you had hip hop. That's kind of a
Speaker 1: different beast. But does it make a difference, Right, nobody's
Speaker 1: gonna a white guy's not gonna play Malcolm X, right,
Speaker 1: and that kind of a thing.
Speaker 2: Use we're talking about race right now. But you can
Speaker 2: also now there is a huge, huge push in Hollywood
Speaker 2: that a gay person should play a gay character, and
Speaker 2: a trans person should play a trans character, and you
Speaker 2: should not. You know, a deaf character should be played
Speaker 2: by a deaf actor. So I guess there is a
Speaker 2: question about art too, because aren't actors. Isn't that this
Speaker 2: whole point that you step into the role or into
Speaker 2: the world of another person and you learn it and
Speaker 2: you craft it. It's not about playing someone like you,
Speaker 2: or someone who looks like you, or someone who acts
Speaker 2: like you, but actually someone who's completely different than you.
Speaker 2: That's part of the craft, that's part of the skills.
Speaker 2: So we're getting into a point and I'm some of
Speaker 2: this is necessary, and so I'm not. But you do
Speaker 2: get to a point where who can play what roles?
Speaker 2: And why I don't I don't know the answer.
Speaker 1: You hadn't made a good You made a good point
Speaker 1: on earlier about the motivation matters, right, if it's coming
Speaker 1: from a good place, there's thought put into it, and
Speaker 1: even the appearance or the background of the character is
Speaker 1: put into the story, woven in some way. That's one thing.
Speaker 1: It's another of just let's make a black just because,
Speaker 1: and we're trying to appear to be more diverse.
Speaker 2: That's a different feeling as a Black American. Would you
Speaker 2: prefer to have new stories told with black characters or
Speaker 2: people from different colors and backgrounds, or is it the
Speaker 2: same to take old stories and retell them using like
Speaker 2: Does one make a bigger difference than the other. Because
Speaker 2: I have read online that there are plenty of black
Speaker 2: people who are offended by this, saying don't throw us
Speaker 2: a bone or placate us, or say you're showing diversity
Speaker 2: by taking a white story and just putting black actors
Speaker 2: in there? Is that offensive in any ways?
Speaker 1: It depends certainly on how it's done. I was saying earlier,
Speaker 1: but I don't think it's done well. We have too often.
Speaker 1: But Black Panther, right, that was a phenomenon, and a
Speaker 1: lot of folks didn't get why that was such a
Speaker 1: big deal to us. But for some a black, certainly
Speaker 1: a man, to get superhero treatment in that way is
Speaker 1: just unheard of. Look, I'm sitting here at forty seven now,
Speaker 1: but I was into my thirties before I ever dreamed
Speaker 1: that this country could have a black president. I grew
Speaker 1: up not looking at a Barack Obama. I didn't have
Speaker 1: that as an example. So I love the original and
Speaker 1: the idea of possibility of black stories. Black Panther is
Speaker 1: the best example you can come up with in recent history.
Speaker 1: But Jesus' criminy. The problem is that was twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here with you at twenty Yes, it was
Speaker 1: that long.
Speaker 2: Ago, but it was more impactful for you to have
Speaker 2: a black panther.
Speaker 1: Looking at that that that's me a reflection. It is
Speaker 1: not just putting my skin tone on somebody you created
Speaker 1: to be white.
Speaker 2: Right, so if you made a Superman is black, it
Speaker 2: would not have had I don't think the same impact
Speaker 2: as Black Panther.
Speaker 1: No, I just don't want to see a black Superman
Speaker 1: flying a while around just because now I think that
Speaker 1: could be a great film and and it's done well.
Speaker 1: If we get to a point that him being black
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with the story, that he's not
Speaker 1: asked a single question during the press junket about being
Speaker 1: a black man. If we get to that point, hell, yes,
Speaker 1: But until we get there that yes, to your point,
Speaker 1: Black Panther meant more to me because it is a
Speaker 1: black story versus just throwing my skin tone on somebody
Speaker 1: you have always imagined to be white. Now there is it? Okay?
Speaker 1: We talk about Ari's album is a good example of
Speaker 1: people really thought it was a possibility he could be
Speaker 1: the next James Bond. You know I Love Me from
Speaker 1: James Bond. Does that character matter? He was fictional in
Speaker 1: the British Secret Service, always been depicted as white. Does
Speaker 1: it change a thing to see a black man or
Speaker 1: any other color man playing that role? To me?
Speaker 2: I would just want that man to play that role
Speaker 2: to be British.
Speaker 1: That's it, That's all with you right there.
Speaker 2: For me, that keeps true to the character. His skin
Speaker 2: color or skin tone doesn't matter too much as much
Speaker 2: to me as the fact that he's British.
Speaker 1: That's a very good point, So Zendaia, I think you
Speaker 1: mentioned her here at the beginning, played MJ and Superman.
Speaker 1: MJ was traditionally but pale skin, redheaded. Yep, right, yes,
Speaker 1: did that make a difference at all in that movie
Speaker 1: To not see a white, redheaded MJ didn't mix.
Speaker 2: To me at all.
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 2: So, and this is where we get Halle Bailey.
Speaker 1: Some different territory, Halle Bailey, ariol that was all she
Speaker 1: got so much.
Speaker 2: So much because there's a oh, you know, white skinned
Speaker 2: mermaid Ariel, who is this famous iconic and yes she
Speaker 2: was animated, but even in Broadway, you know, anytime anyone
Speaker 2: wore an Ariel costume to school, which I think my
Speaker 2: girls might have one time for it was the red
Speaker 2: wig and the so yes, it was such an iconic girl.
Speaker 2: People really had a hard time wrapping their heads around that.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at another one here. There's a lot of redheads. Annie.
Speaker 1: There was a remake not too terribly long ago, probably
Speaker 1: past ten years, Black Girl play Danny. Does that character
Speaker 1: need to keep that red hair and that pale, freckled face.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, it's just so iconic with the role.
Speaker 1: That the look of that character goes with that. Yeah. See,
Speaker 1: that's the question. If the race plays you being, whatever
Speaker 1: ethnicity plays, is a factor in the identity of that character,
Speaker 1: then it needs to stay in that race.
Speaker 2: I would say, I feel like it's just it doesn't
Speaker 2: feel like what is the reasoning behind it that again,
Speaker 2: if you can tell me why, then that's fine.
Speaker 1: But not just a reimagining. Is that enough?
Speaker 2: I just would prefer another story to be told, a
Speaker 2: different story to be told. I don't know why we
Speaker 2: have to to rewrite.
Speaker 1: Was that one different enough? It was Jamie Foxx playing
Speaker 1: the billionaire in town.
Speaker 2: Daddy Warbucks. I actually so, I saw that on Broadway
Speaker 2: and I thought it was amazing. So I was actually
Speaker 2: gonna say Daddy Warbucks didn't. But Annie and her iconic
Speaker 2: red hair with a there's just something about that look,
Speaker 2: you know what. I did see it on Broadway and
Speaker 2: it didn't bother me at all. But I can understand
Speaker 2: why it sometimes rubs people the wrong way because they're
Speaker 2: wondering if you're doing it just to do it, just
Speaker 2: to get the controversial comments, just to get people to
Speaker 2: watch it. But if there's good that comes from it,
Speaker 2: what harm did it actually do? Not very much? You know,
Speaker 2: That's how I look at it.
Speaker 1: Y Are Shahiti played tinker Bell in a recent Peter
Speaker 1: Pan and Wendy, a remake of a classic. Michael B.
Speaker 1: Jordan played Johnny Storm Fantastic Four, historically been a white character. Now,
Speaker 1: there was an updated Scooby Doo that was on HBO
Speaker 1: Max that Minnie Kling was behind and it was called Velma,
Speaker 1: and so it was the whole crew together, but the
Speaker 1: crew did look like the crew that we grew up
Speaker 1: with on Scooby Doo. Velma is act actually bisexual and
Speaker 1: of South Asian descent. Shaggy is now a black man,
Speaker 1: and then one other character is Asian, I believe as well.
Speaker 1: Now to diversify that crew, that's an iconic crew for
Speaker 1: all of us coming up, Scoofy, Shaggy for that crew,
Speaker 1: love Love Love. Do you update it for a new generation?
Speaker 1: Does it matter? I haven't seen the show so I
Speaker 1: can't say what those roles play into their characters.
Speaker 2: And the way for me, having a new round, a
Speaker 2: new generation love the same type of goofy storytelling that
Speaker 2: was silly, family fun does not bother me at all
Speaker 2: of the If the new characters, yeah they're not going
Speaker 2: back and doing the same episodes and redoing them, but
Speaker 2: just switching out skin tones. That feels strange, but yeah,
Speaker 2: when you're retelling it and you've got it, so you're
Speaker 2: getting an entire new generation to see different stories. I'm
Speaker 2: sure there are slightly different scenarios. If it weren't for
Speaker 2: those what are they meddling kids, I would have gotten
Speaker 2: away with it. I'm sure hopefully they can. Honestly, I'd
Speaker 2: be more upset if they somehow took that line out.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that it is. So if you close
Speaker 1: it to your point, it just closed your eyes and
Speaker 1: everybody can imagine the crew from Scooby Doo yep, now
Speaker 1: Shaggy just make them black, Just color them in black
Speaker 1: and give them a fade like that type of thing.
Speaker 1: Just putting the color on top, doesn't it feels inauthentical.
Speaker 1: You have to have a good story. So yes, it
Speaker 1: was a retelling to your point, which makes more sense
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 2: And so I think that is what Disney was trying
Speaker 2: to do with this snow White, because they did change
Speaker 2: the story slightly. They did take out snow White and
Speaker 2: the Seven Dwarves, which is what it was originally called,
Speaker 2: correct and now it's just snow White. So they did
Speaker 2: say it was a retelling, and perhaps in that vein
Speaker 2: with exactly the argument we are making, I guess they're saying, see,
Speaker 2: that's what we were doing. That's what we are doing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So yes, if that is what they're doing, and
Speaker 1: they're trying to open this up and show change the
Speaker 1: story a little bit and have it more about empowerment
Speaker 1: and female empowerment and not having to be saved by
Speaker 1: a prince and all these things, and they're going to
Speaker 1: make no ideaverse. But Peter Dinkledge says, wait a minute, Disney,
Speaker 1: then why the hell did you do this to the
Speaker 1: Seven Dwarfs.
Speaker 2: So there are two issues with the Seven Dwarfs. First,
Speaker 2: they didn't use little people, so they didn't use actual actors.
Speaker 2: They used CGI. So there are plenty of little people
Speaker 2: who are in acting who are available. You couldn't find
Speaker 2: seven amazing little people who can act to actually give
Speaker 2: them roles, iconic roles that they were literally meant to play.
Speaker 1: You just broke my heart. I didn't think about it
Speaker 1: that way. There's gotta be a shortage of roles already
Speaker 1: for them. Yes, this is one where there are seven
Speaker 1: there are star seven starring roles, and we don't want
Speaker 1: you all for any of them. I'm thinking about it
Speaker 1: that way. This would not just because those are a
Speaker 1: lot of options, seven roles available, but it's on the
Speaker 1: biggest stage possible. What that could have meant exactly?
Speaker 2: So that was to me, that's a huge missed opportunity,
Speaker 2: and that was a huge part of Yes, some of
Speaker 2: the criticism, but it's not just that. And Peter Dinklage,
Speaker 2: I love this man. I mean he is one of
Speaker 2: the most brilliant actors ever, I believe, not just because
Speaker 2: I love Game of Thrones, but he's just please, elf,
Speaker 2: I don't even get me started. I love Peter ding.
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get you started on that man.
Speaker 2: Oh he's an angry ye okay, sorry, what's the one
Speaker 2: about the meat in the chair. He's like, you're not Santa,
Speaker 2: you smell like meat.
Speaker 1: And cheese, you sit on a throne. That's the one.
Speaker 2: Yes. Anyway, I sorry that will say that for a
Speaker 2: Christmas episode. But so the other thing is, this is
Speaker 2: what Peter Dinkliche said. He said, you know, so if
Speaker 2: you're talking about the film and it's heroin being modernized,
Speaker 2: the fact that you still have seven dwarves with names
Speaker 2: like Dopey, you know that has to be questioned as well.
Speaker 2: So I'm going to quote Peter Dinklisch there. He said,
Speaker 2: I was a little taken aback. They were very proud
Speaker 2: to cast a Latina actress a snow White, but you're
Speaker 2: still telling the story of snow White and the seven Dwarves.
Speaker 2: Take a step back and look at what you're doing there.
Speaker 2: It makes no sense to me. You're progressive in one way,
Speaker 2: but you're still making that looking backward story about seven
Speaker 2: dwarves living in a cave together. Have I done nothing
Speaker 2: to advance the cause? From my soapbox? I guess I'm
Speaker 2: not loud enough.
Speaker 1: Wow, I mean from him, Okay, I mean, how you
Speaker 1: take issue with that? And I didn't think about it
Speaker 1: that way until I actually ended up seeing his comments.
Speaker 1: That's devastating.
Speaker 2: You can't modernize one group and say we're woke on
Speaker 2: this issue. But you know what, the other big part
Speaker 2: of this story, we're not even gonna give you acting roles,
Speaker 2: and we're gonna still have you called dopey and grumpy
Speaker 2: and so like. If you're gonna change the story, it's
Speaker 2: a slippery slope because if you're gonna try to make
Speaker 2: one character or some characters look better in the world
Speaker 2: we live in and empower them, but you don't do
Speaker 2: that for another huge part of the story, which happens
Speaker 2: to be a very marginalized community who has overlooked in
Speaker 2: so many ways and completely overlook them while making this film.
Speaker 2: That's hard to defend.
Speaker 1: You to that even I think they did. I can't
Speaker 1: remember the actors. I'm trying to look it up here,
Speaker 1: but he is a little person who did some voice work.
Speaker 1: I believe you know what I'm talking about, all I do.
Speaker 1: He was upset about a lot of the premieres and
Speaker 1: a lot of things being canceled because of controversy, and
Speaker 1: again they didn't get the role in the movie. But
Speaker 1: now here's an opportunity to walk a red carpet, to
Speaker 1: be out there to talk about it and they're not
Speaker 1: getting that opportunity either. That's that's Peter Dinklis. He is
Speaker 1: he is, Yes, he is the one. He has been
Speaker 1: out there. But to his point, are certain people screaming
Speaker 1: louder than others? Are certain people's voices being value? The
Speaker 1: answer is yes.
Speaker 2: The answer is yes, and certain voices are heard more
Speaker 2: than others, and you are. I mean, I think that
Speaker 2: he just nailed it when he said that.
Speaker 1: So I don't know before all of this we've been
Speaker 1: talking about several weeks. Now that's coming out. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it would have been on my list of
Speaker 1: things to watch, but it might be now out of
Speaker 1: curiosity and quite frankly, I hear the movie is good,
Speaker 1: like it's a great Disney spectacle. They know how to
Speaker 1: put on a movie like.
Speaker 2: This, and Rachel Zegler can sing, oh there's talent, she
Speaker 2: can say beyond how did you find? Oh? Yes, I
Speaker 2: do so. The little person who he was on one
Speaker 2: hand defending Disney because he said it gave him his life,
Speaker 2: it gave him his career and he was able at
Speaker 2: least to voice grumpy. His name is Martin Klebba and
Speaker 2: he was in the Pirates of the Caribbean. So he's
Speaker 2: done a lot of work with Disney, so he didn't
Speaker 2: want to throw them under the bus, so to speak.
Speaker 1: But and folks, you know his face. As soon as
Speaker 1: you see him, you say, oh, yeah, you can't remember
Speaker 1: what he was in, but he was very prominently featured
Speaker 1: in the.
Speaker 2: Parts of the Caribbean. Yes, so you know, he just said, yeah,
Speaker 2: you could have tried to find seven little people, and
Speaker 2: he you know, so it's hard to not say you
Speaker 2: can't say that they couldn't have. Of course they could have,
Speaker 2: and they chose not to. That was a decision. So
Speaker 2: that's you know, there are just we were starting down
Speaker 2: this podcast path by saying, okay, wow, is it okay
Speaker 2: to have snow White not be white? And then you
Speaker 2: start looking at all the other controversies. This has been
Speaker 2: a lightning rod and it's coming at it from so
Speaker 2: many different places. I have a question for you. It
Speaker 2: just dawned on me while we were talking snow White
Speaker 2: being played by a Latina actress, and people are that's controversial, right,
Speaker 2: Could snow White be played by a black actress?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Would it be? Would the controversy be any different?
Speaker 1: I very similar? Certainly intense, but I think it would
Speaker 1: be intense from two sides, right. I think we are
Speaker 1: just there's a dearth of roles for black folks in
Speaker 1: these very prominent ways. Now, I am I would be
Speaker 1: more on board if it was a black actress and
Speaker 1: there's a retelling I am putting a black one. I
Speaker 1: am very glad it's not a black woman that's being
Speaker 1: put in this role right now. A retelling. And we
Speaker 1: were talking about this earlier. We haven't said it yet
Speaker 1: before we started Brandy Cinerelli playing Cinderella. Yes, it was
Speaker 1: a black Cinderella, but the whole story.
Speaker 2: Rudy Houston was the fairy Godmother and they retold it
Speaker 2: and it came from a black lens, and so it
Speaker 2: made sense to cast.
Speaker 1: Black brothers Wizard of the Wiz the Wiz best favor
Speaker 1: again telling it's a retelling of the story. So no,
Speaker 1: I don't just want to see a black actress there.
Speaker 2: The music was changed, the cultural significance of it all
Speaker 2: a shame, so it made sense. It didn't feel inauthentic.
Speaker 2: It was an authentic retelling of a parallel story. And
Speaker 2: I think that's super cool, and I think that's an
Speaker 2: awesome thing for everyone to see and witness.
Speaker 1: There's a do you know there was a Rapunzel coming,
Speaker 1: There's a Tangled. They're doing a live action version, and
Speaker 1: this young lady just believe Indian actress in the American
Speaker 1: I believe I have that right. Just her being rumored,
Speaker 1: everybody came after her, just being rumored possibly to be
Speaker 1: a part of Rapunzel Entangled. People came after her.
Speaker 2: Well, that's not kind or fair at all. That's terrible
Speaker 2: and awful. Again, I do believe that is the role
Speaker 2: of an actor to assume different characters and different roles
Speaker 2: and make them your own. And I think that's one
Speaker 2: of the cool things about the art and craft of acting.
Speaker 2: But I do think that when you do and when
Speaker 2: you're a company and you make a choice to remake
Speaker 2: a traditional story, and especially something like snow White, you're
Speaker 2: going to have to expect people to be upset when
Speaker 2: you change it so much that it doesn't even maybe
Speaker 2: feel like the original, and yet you're trying to tell
Speaker 2: an original story. It's not the Whiz, it's not Brandy sindirect.
Speaker 2: It's that those are yes, those are very different. Now
Speaker 2: we haven't seen snow White and we were going to
Speaker 2: see it correct. I think we have to know.
Speaker 1: This has nothing to do about a criticism of the movie,
Speaker 1: nothing at all. This is just this debate that continues
Speaker 1: to happen and probably will continue to happen, that it's
Speaker 1: okay we hate to leave a white character white, and
Speaker 1: it's also sometimes okay to make that white character not
Speaker 1: white anymore. It really is a case by case basis,
Speaker 1: but sometimes it feels like forced diversity. You don't like that.
Speaker 1: I don't like that. I don't like this push. And
Speaker 1: if you're just putting a black character up there, and
Speaker 1: then every producer, every writer, every grip guy, everybody on
Speaker 1: set is still majority white, you're not diversifying anything. You're
Speaker 1: just trying to make people out there think you're diverse.
Speaker 1: I ain't on board with that.
Speaker 2: It's patronizing.
Speaker 1: Yes, that doesn't feel good, but this will continue to
Speaker 1: come up.
Speaker 2: And who Like we were just in La we saw
Speaker 2: the protests around the you know, the skilled back.
Speaker 1: We didn't need Opening night.
Speaker 2: We didn't even know because.
Speaker 1: It was blocked off with these huge bushes. You couldn't
Speaker 1: even tell that there was a premiere happening. Yes, all
Speaker 1: the stars we walked right past where it was happening.
Speaker 2: Had no idea.
Speaker 1: Because the only reason we had a general idea is
Speaker 1: because there were protess on the corner.
Speaker 2: So it's been you know, massively scaled back. And then
Speaker 2: we saw gal Gado getting her star. We saw them
Speaker 2: literally buffing it. We were walking by, and then we
Speaker 2: saw them set up the tents as we were leaving
Speaker 2: for her big moment, her big star on the Hollywood
Speaker 2: Walk of Fame. But so that controversy was so fresh
Speaker 2: in my mind because we were hearing about the Palestinian
Speaker 2: conflict with Hamas and Gaza. But when you really start
Speaker 2: taking a look at this movie, it has It has
Speaker 2: been under fire for years now.
Speaker 1: And that's too bad because a lot of people did
Speaker 1: good work on this movie for sure, and again from
Speaker 1: all accounts, it is a good movie.
Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to see how it does.
Speaker 1: Go up for it is the thing. It's gotten me interested.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to see it now. I wouldn't have gone.
Speaker 1: I'm just not my jam.
Speaker 2: I am so excited. You're gonna go see it with me?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, No, we're in Okay, call him up.
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to go see it. But are people going
Speaker 1: to now go see it because of the controversy. Are
Speaker 1: people going to sit out because of the controversy? Do
Speaker 1: you think any little white girl is looking at this now? Oh,
Speaker 1: she's not white anymore. I'm not interested.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I don't think that's going
Speaker 2: to stop any little girl. And frankly, as a mom
Speaker 2: my girls are grown, but that would never ever say
Speaker 2: they aren't telling the story right, Nah, But I think
Speaker 2: there is some eye rolling and we'll know how people
Speaker 2: feel when we see what this opening weekend ends up being.
Speaker 1: Well, we've had actually all day today as we're recording here,
Speaker 1: we're in the living room and we have had Snow
Speaker 1: White on, had it playing on the original y is
Speaker 1: the original just during the day. There's still something about it. Yes,
Speaker 1: obviously there were issues with it, but there's still something
Speaker 1: nostalgic about it. It makes you go just ah, I just
Speaker 1: look up and see grumpy and whistle.
Speaker 2: Why you work?
Speaker 1: I mean, there's something about it that still brings true
Speaker 1: to your heart, makes you smile.
Speaker 2: It's nostalgia. It's your childhood's We all grew up watching
Speaker 2: it and singing it. And you know what, maybe this
Speaker 2: new movie will have a whole new generation loving it
Speaker 2: for lots of different reasons, and us old people can
Speaker 2: just go away.
Speaker 1: And shut up. Old people go away to shut up.
Speaker 1: Now we will go see it, probably won't come back
Speaker 1: and do a review, but we kind of want to
Speaker 1: intentionally talk about this before we went to see it,
Speaker 1: so we wouldn't have been because we're gonna love Rachel
Speaker 1: in it, and then we would come back and say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she didn't mean to sing that, okay, but
Speaker 1: we wanted to get this out ahead of time, so
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Watch it if you want to enjoy it.
Speaker 1: But for now I'm teaching.
Speaker 2: And I'm Amy. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Put the Guts