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Speaker 1: March twenty five, a woman notices a barefoot figure lying

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Speaker 1: on a neighbor's lawn. Just a few doors down. That

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Speaker 1: figure a beautiful young woman, Eve Wilkowitz, last seen boarding

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Speaker 1: a late night train home from work. To this day,

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Speaker 1: the mystery surrounding Eve Wilkowitz goes on, I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is crime Stories, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. She

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Speaker 1: was very sweet. She loved twice as twice is with

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Speaker 1: her passion. She loved to Eve was the older one,

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Speaker 1: and the two sisters were living in Oakdale when they

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Speaker 1: endured the loss of their mother to breast cancer. Eve

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Speaker 1: later wanted some independence and moved out to live with

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Speaker 1: a boyfriend in Bay Shore. She was afraid of him.

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Speaker 1: She felt something wasn't right. But Eve had started to

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Speaker 1: find a life in Manhattan with a promising job at

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Speaker 1: McMillan Publishing. A young writer there took an interest in Eve,

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Speaker 1: and he was the one who dropped her at Penn

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Speaker 1: Station for the last train to Bay Shore on that

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Speaker 1: Friday night in Marchall the other thing I know she

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Speaker 1: got on a train from Penn Station. That we know

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Speaker 1: she was on the train. Eve Wilkewitz made a final

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Speaker 1: trip on the Long Island Railroad to Bay Shore. The

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Speaker 1: ride to our south Shore town should have taken less

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Speaker 1: than ninety minutes. You are hearing our friends at pix

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Speaker 1: eleven in New York, Mary Murphy, Eve Wilkewitz. All you

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Speaker 1: have to do is Google to pull up her gorgeous photo.

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Speaker 1: I'm may and see Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us, with me an all star

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Speaker 1: panel starting with Newsday journalist Tony DeStefano, Cheryl a Point,

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Speaker 1: genetic genealogist, the gene hunter John Cardillo, hosts America Talks

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Speaker 1: on Newsmax TV, former NYPD and renowned former Chief Medical

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Speaker 1: Examiner doctor Chris Sperry. But joining me right now and

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Speaker 1: first is not only a colleague, but a very dear friend,

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Speaker 1: the father of slain jogger Carina Vatrono, Phil Vatronto. Her

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Speaker 1: father was dragged out of Corrina's general in order to

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Speaker 1: give DNA to help catch her killer. And he did

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Speaker 1: it happily. He did it happily, And that is an

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Speaker 1: example of a crime victim, a loving parent trying to

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Speaker 1: find whoever killed his daughter. But now the fight is on,

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Speaker 1: Phil the n Why is twenty year old even Wilto,

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Speaker 1: it's so important to you. Well, I think this is

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Speaker 1: all I have left to do, you know, like sort

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Speaker 1: of like John Walsh when Adam was killed. I tried

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Speaker 1: to continue my life the way it was, Buddy, I

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Speaker 1: just couldn't. And I had heard this story. I had

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Speaker 1: got a little email from Rob Harmon out in California,

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Speaker 1: and he said it would be a good idea for

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Speaker 1: SS testing. And I decided that this is what's going

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Speaker 1: to happen. We're gonna get this tested and we're going

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Speaker 1: to try to find to help, you know, find who

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Speaker 1: killed Irene. Insist to Eve because it's forty forty years

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Speaker 1: and that's a long time without any answers. And now

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Speaker 1: that wound never healed. Oh my stars still, Oh oh

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Speaker 1: how awful. I mean you My fiance was murtyred, his

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Speaker 1: killer was caught and prosecuted. You suffered both ways, for

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Speaker 1: the many many months you did not know who Karina's

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Speaker 1: a murderer was, and then the fight to get him convicted.

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Newsday journalist Tony Stephan O'tony, let's

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Speaker 1: start at the beginning with Eve Wilkowis. Who is she?

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Speaker 1: Tell me about her? Eve Wilcowits was a twenty year

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Speaker 1: old woman originally from Long Island, and she was working

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Speaker 1: in New York City at a publishing house. This is

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty. I were talking March of nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: when this all transpired. But she was living, you know,

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Speaker 1: working in Manhattan and living back on Long Island, the

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Speaker 1: town of Bay Shore, and doing a commuting life. She

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Speaker 1: had a boyfriend in the city and she was living

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Speaker 1: in Bay Shore, and you know, she was a young

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Speaker 1: girl starting off in a secretarial career. He's actually living

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Speaker 1: with an old boyfriend in a rather platonic situation. They

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Speaker 1: were remained friends and they shared an apartment together. And

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Speaker 1: she took the train home at Friday night and the boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: the current boyfriend at the time, put her on the train,

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Speaker 1: star off and that was it. She got on the train.

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Speaker 1: People know she was on the train. She got off

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Speaker 1: of Okay, right, let me just stop you right there,

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Speaker 1: Tony to Stephanoe Newsday journalists. Are we sure she got

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Speaker 1: on the train? Was she observed by anybody other than

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend? Yes? The conductors, okay, the train conductor and

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Speaker 1: they had her. They knew she was on They were

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Speaker 1: remembered and recalled her being present on the train. You know,

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Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends at p I X eleven, missus Mary Murphy. Three

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Speaker 1: days after Eve Wilkewitz failed to come home from Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: her body was discovered here at the Bay Shore, a

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Speaker 1: Long Island railroad station, her original destination. As she was strangled,

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Speaker 1: I know her hands would tie the rope burns, I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty sure around her hands the whole. The police told

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Speaker 1: Eve's family she'd been held alive for three days before

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Speaker 1: she was killed. Whoever they could find. They interviewed the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend she was living with. Did the police tell you

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Speaker 1: they ruled him out? Yeah? I believe so. The murder

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Speaker 1: was long before the evolution of DNA testing and in

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Speaker 1: the years that followed. Irene Brassner didn't talk much about

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Speaker 1: the case to her daughter Dara and son Evan. My

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Speaker 1: mother explained to me and that I was named after

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Speaker 1: her Eve. It was definitely an honor to be named

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Speaker 1: after her. You're hearing our friend Mary Murphy, along with

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Speaker 1: Irene Welcowitz Bossner and brother Evan Brossner. To doctor Chris Sperry,

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Speaker 1: renowned former chief medical examiner, Doctor Sperry, how would the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner no that she was held alive for three

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Speaker 1: days before she was murdered. I think the medical examiner

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Speaker 1: would be able to give an estimation like that based

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Speaker 1: upon probably the absence of decomposition, the absence of the

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Speaker 1: changes that would be present if she had been dead

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Speaker 1: all that period of time. If her body would appear

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Speaker 1: to be very fresh and there was no decomposition, no

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Speaker 1: blurting or gas accumulations, the things that occur after death

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Speaker 1: or the passage of time, then I mean that's a

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Speaker 1: very reasonable conclusion. Okay, Not to Chris Berry, and just

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Speaker 1: break it down for me, just for a moment. And

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Speaker 1: I'm going into this in depth because it matters. And

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Speaker 1: I'm also doing this because I don't have her family

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Speaker 1: member on because this would certainly cause them a lot

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Speaker 1: of sorrow and agitation. But not to Chris Berry. Explain

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Speaker 1: to me how you can tell a body is, as

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Speaker 1: you say, fresh. I've never really heard it referred that way,

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Speaker 1: but okay, go ahead, doctor Sperry, you're the m E

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Speaker 1: just a JD. Tell me the ways you can look

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Speaker 1: at a dead body and almost almost automatically know it

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Speaker 1: is fresh. As opposed to having been lying out the

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Speaker 1: elements for three days. Well, the first thing would be

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Speaker 1: evaluation of the writer wardis, or the stiffness in the

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Speaker 1: muscles and joints that develops after death. And this will

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Speaker 1: begin at room temperatures, usually about twenty to thirty minutes

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Speaker 1: after someone dies, but then progress and by twelve hours

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Speaker 1: the body will be very, very stiff, and over the

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Speaker 1: next maybe twelve to twenty four hours, all that begins

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Speaker 1: to pass, so that the stiffness is lost. And so

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Speaker 1: it evaluating a body that has been found outside like this,

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Speaker 1: The degree if any of stiffness the joints, the presence

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Speaker 1: of rigor mortis, or the absence of it is to

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Speaker 1: indicate that it is passing, gives at least a broad

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Speaker 1: estimation of perhaps how long the body has been out.

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Speaker 1: And one thing you said, which is very important, that is,

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Speaker 1: if a deceased body is put out in the elements,

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Speaker 1: then lots of other things start to happen. Insects will

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Speaker 1: find the body and lay eggs. And because this is

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Speaker 1: just this is part of nature. This is how the

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Speaker 1: natural world takes care of any dead organism by other

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Speaker 1: bugs of the creatures really make food out of it

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Speaker 1: then breed. And if finding a body outside, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: if the person has been missing for three days but

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Speaker 1: yet there's no evidence of any fly larvae on the body,

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Speaker 1: any maggots, anything that indicates insect activity, then that means

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Speaker 1: the body has been somewhere else and probably the person

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Speaker 1: very likely could have been alive if there's no other

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Speaker 1: changes like decomposition, bloating, gas accumulation, slippage of the skin,

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Speaker 1: and all of the things that occur again with the

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Speaker 1: passage of time. So if someone if a body is

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Speaker 1: found and there's no evidence of any insect or animal predation,

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Speaker 1: no maggots, there's no swelling, no bloating. All of these

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Speaker 1: different factors work together to really give the ability to

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Speaker 1: say that the person not only hasn't been outside for

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Speaker 1: three or four days, but also wasn't probably alive. Time

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, hear of music through the walls

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Speaker 1: all the time, the Beatles, Elton, John Billy Joel. To

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Speaker 1: this day, when Irene bros Senor of East Meadow, here's

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Speaker 1: a Billy Joel's song or a Beatles classic, She's flooded

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Speaker 1: with emotions. Growing up in Oakdale, Irene and her older

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Speaker 1: sister Eve were close. They remained that way until March

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Speaker 1: twenty fifth, nineteen eighty. That's when twenty year old Eve

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Speaker 1: Wilkowitz's lifeless body was found just blocks away from the

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Speaker 1: Bay Shore train station. After thirty six years, her death

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Speaker 1: still remains an unsolved mystery, even though she expressed concern

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Speaker 1: to her family just a week before she was murdered.

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Speaker 1: She's saying that I think someone's been following me. Eve

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Speaker 1: commuted to and from Manhattan, where she worked as a

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Speaker 1: secretary for a publishing house. At night, she routinely made

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Speaker 1: the ten minute walk from the station to her Bay

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Speaker 1: Shore apartment. Suffolk Police believe she was abducted while walking home.

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Speaker 1: Detectives interviewed multiple suspects, but never made an arrest. Bush

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Speaker 1: reports at the time suggested that Eve was most likely

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Speaker 1: held captive for three days and sexually abused. You're hearing

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Speaker 1: our friends at News twelve Long Island. That was Rich

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Speaker 1: Babbie speaking on her way home from work. She was

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Speaker 1: a commuter, gets off the train and has never seen

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Speaker 1: alive again. Days later, her body is found. Now we

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Speaker 1: are learning right now that it's believed her hands had

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Speaker 1: been tied based on burnmarks on her hands and that

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Speaker 1: she had been sex abused. What really happened to twenty

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Speaker 1: year old Eve? Can you imagine the torture of being

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Speaker 1: held alive for days on end only to be murdered,

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Speaker 1: your body discarded. I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. To John Cardillo, former

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Speaker 1: NYPD host America talks on Newsmax, John, again, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. That sounds like a well thought

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Speaker 1: out plan for some or would it be a crime

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Speaker 1: of opportunity, someone possibly seeing her on the train and

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Speaker 1: suddenly deciding to attack her. But there is one clue

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Speaker 1: that suggests this was long planned. Listen, I just figured

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Speaker 1: any day now, you know, we'll hear closure, and you know,

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Speaker 1: any days now. Therey six years later and still and

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Speaker 1: my dad never saw closure, and you know, he died

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Speaker 1: in twenty ten, so he never guidances. It's that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that makes me most sad. You know

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Speaker 1: so well. I know she was out with her friend

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Speaker 1: in the city. She was working with McMillan Publishing in Manhattan,

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Speaker 1: and she was having dinner with her friend and she

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Speaker 1: was going to go on the train to come home.

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Speaker 1: And never made it home. I don't if my dad

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Speaker 1: heard it, but I know I did. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'm making enough. All these years, I still kind of

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Speaker 1: remember saying I think someone's been following me. I think

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Speaker 1: that was one of the last times I saw her.

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Speaker 1: Is that less conversation saying that I think someone's been

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Speaker 1: following me. Okay, that's not enough to just send chills

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Speaker 1: down your spine. I don't know what is to think

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Speaker 1: someone's following you. That's our friend at Newsday speaking along

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Speaker 1: with sister Irene. Back to you, John Cardillo, the fact

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Speaker 1: that you believe someone is following you? Is that real?

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Speaker 1: Or is that just the stuff that novels are made up? No,

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Speaker 1: I absolutely think the family they're gut instinct than yours.

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Speaker 1: Nancy is in the right place for your our listeners.

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Speaker 1: Viewers that don't live in the New York area aren't familiar.

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Speaker 1: That's a crowded train. The Long Island Railroad line from

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Speaker 1: Manhattan and Bay Shore is incredibly crowded. More importantly, a

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Speaker 1: lot of police officers, a lot of firefighters live out there.

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Speaker 1: They're on that train. So first instink thirty thousand foot view.

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Speaker 1: I agree. I think this was pre planned. You certainly

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Speaker 1: wouldn't commit the abduction on the train. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: she was a rush hour commuter, but that particular line,

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Speaker 1: those train cars are pretty crowded even eight thirty nine o'clock,

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Speaker 1: ten o'clock at night. People have afterward dinners in the city,

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. So my initial instinct says she

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Speaker 1: was followed off the train and abducted somewhere in a

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Speaker 1: dark part of the Bay Shore station, or maybe walking

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Speaker 1: to a vehicle, walking to a cab stand, something like that.

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Speaker 1: And that's somebody certainly who tracked her, who followed her,

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Speaker 1: who planned this out, who knew her movements, who knew

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Speaker 1: her schedule. It's unlikely that on that crowded Long Island

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Speaker 1: Railroad line the abduction would have happened on the train.

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Speaker 1: So I think the family's instincts are dead on point

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Speaker 1: to Tony to Stephano News a journalist, Tony, she actually

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Speaker 1: told family members and maybe others she felt someone had

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Speaker 1: been following her, But did she ever give a description

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Speaker 1: or who she thought was following her. Well, she may

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Speaker 1: have given enough of a description because the police subsequent,

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Speaker 1: many years subsequent, told me that there was a person

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Speaker 1: that they focused on who they belief was following her,

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Speaker 1: and they cleared that person from involvement, you know, through

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Speaker 1: DNA testing. So I think she did relate enough of

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Speaker 1: that to allow law enforcement to focus in on somebody eventually.

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Speaker 1: But that person turned out to be non culpable, as

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Speaker 1: it were. So you know, this was not a freagment

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Speaker 1: of her imagination. I don't believe, Okay, So that was

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Speaker 1: not made up. She actually gave a description and told

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Speaker 1: several people she felt she was being followed. I'm just

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Speaker 1: only as she worked at macmillan Publishers, which is a

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Speaker 1: huge book publishing company headquarters in Manhattan. They have very

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Speaker 1: prominent imprints, sell books all around the world, award winning

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Speaker 1: books for children and adults in every category. I remember

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Speaker 1: growing up some of our textbooks or books that we

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Speaker 1: had at school where McMillan. That opens up a whole

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Speaker 1: plethora of potential suspects. If she worked in a skyscraper

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Speaker 1: in downtown Manhattan, was going in and out at lunch

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Speaker 1: for coffee breaks, who could have seen her or who

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Speaker 1: could have been watching her on her train. Now this

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Speaker 1: is someone we believe was following her, and that makes

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Speaker 1: a big difference joining me, the dad of jogger Karina Vatrono.

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Speaker 1: Feel Vatrono is with us, you know, Phil, there's a

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Speaker 1: big difference between someone that's been stalking you and someone

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Speaker 1: that just happens upon you at that moment, and it's

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Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, Feel Vatronto. Yeah, And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure that Koreans killer just happened to be there. I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure. We're never gonna know. We're never gonna know

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Speaker 1: for sure, but I kind of believe he was looking

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Speaker 1: for her, and because just to be at that exact

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Speaker 1: place at that exact time hidden so well. And I

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Speaker 1: think he was there the week prior when I was

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Speaker 1: on vacation. But you know, questions like that are never

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Speaker 1: going to be answered. Time stories with Nancy Grace so well,

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Speaker 1: I know she was out with her friend in the city.

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Speaker 1: She was working in Smith Mellen Publishing in Manhattan, and

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Speaker 1: she was having dinner with a friend and she was

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Speaker 1: going to go on the train to come home and

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Speaker 1: never made it home. I don't know if my dad

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Speaker 1: heard it, but I know I did, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think I'm making enough all of these years, I still

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Speaker 1: kind of remember saying I think someone's been following me.

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Speaker 1: I think that was one of the last times I

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Speaker 1: saw her. Is that less conversation saying that I think

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Speaker 1: someone's been following me. You are hearing the sister Irene

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Speaker 1: Wilkewitz brusson her speaking on a newsday interview. John Cardilo

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Speaker 1: hosts America Talks on Newsmax TV former NYPD. I always

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Speaker 1: say there's no coincidence in criminal law, and I find

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Speaker 1: it very difficult to believe that this young girl, Eve

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Speaker 1: Wilco is just twenty years old, believe somebody's following her.

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Speaker 1: She tells family members and maybe others about it, then

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Speaker 1: she ends up dead, having been kept alive for three days.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that's the coincidence. John Cardilo, No, I

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Speaker 1: don't at all. But unfortunately the police can't act on

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Speaker 1: a near gut feeling, right. That's the scary part of this.

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Speaker 1: Even if she had said to her family, I think

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Speaker 1: I'm being followed. There's a guy with brown hair and

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Speaker 1: blue eyes. Well, if they interview that guy, even if

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Speaker 1: he turned out to be the purp and he says, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I get off the same train she does every day.

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Speaker 1: I take it from Manhattan like she doesn't we walk

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Speaker 1: the same direction to our vehicles. There's nothing the police

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Speaker 1: can do, So even if that person subsequently turns out

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Speaker 1: to be the bad guy, it doesn't. It's not an

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Speaker 1: indictment of the police or of her family not taking action.

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Speaker 1: There was really no crime to report other than a

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Speaker 1: gut suspicion prior to her abduction and subsequent murder. Eve

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Speaker 1: Wilco It's twenty years old, working at a publishing house

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Speaker 1: when her body was found near the Bay Shore train station.

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Speaker 1: I'm learning it was about a ten minute walk from

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Speaker 1: the station to where she lived in her apartment with

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Speaker 1: her friend. To Tony, to Stephano newsday journalists, what else

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Speaker 1: can you tell me about Eve's body? What was discovered? Well,

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Speaker 1: she was discovered by a housewife looking out the window.

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Speaker 1: She was making coffee and so you know, the body

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Speaker 1: on the on the ground. Uh. She uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: there had been signs. Uh it was clear that she

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Speaker 1: had been raped. That came out subsequent. Family didn't know

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Speaker 1: this until very recently, but the police obviously did know. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And and there was evidence of uh that she had

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Speaker 1: been bound and uh, and there was asphyxia, she was strangled, uh.

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Speaker 1: And there she was, you know, dropped off like a

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Speaker 1: like a sacapatatus on the side of the road. Pretty chilly.

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Speaker 1: The fact that she was raped. Cheryl a point joining

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Speaker 1: a genetic genealogist, the Jane Hunter. Obviously they have not

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Speaker 1: been able to match up DNA found in and on

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Speaker 1: her body to the killer. Explain to me what is

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Speaker 1: familial DNA, So, Nancy, familial DNA is actually a process

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Speaker 1: that she used to run through the coded system looking

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Speaker 1: for a familial match to the DNA that they have.

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Speaker 1: We can an exact match would find the perpetrator. But

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Speaker 1: many states now allow familial DNA, and that allows you

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Speaker 1: to run that DNA through the coded system, which has

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Speaker 1: the DNA of criminals and convicted felons, and you can

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Speaker 1: look for a family member, a parent, a child, or

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Speaker 1: a sibling which show up with familial DNA, and lots

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Speaker 1: of times that leads police to an area where they

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Speaker 1: can actually find who the criminal is. To Tony to Stephano,

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Speaker 1: Newsday journalist, tell me about what you know regarding DNA

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Speaker 1: found on or in Eve's body. Well, it was enough.

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Speaker 1: I think it was robust enough to take a sample

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Speaker 1: run it through codas. Of course, they got an hits

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Speaker 1: on that, compare it with possible suspects such as boyfriends,

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriends and other people and come up with no hits.

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Speaker 1: As it were, it would just uh, you know, was

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Speaker 1: explained to us that you know, the sample was good

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Speaker 1: enough for that and what they have in terms of

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Speaker 1: the profile of the unknown male, they are now going

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Speaker 1: to try to take and run it through the genealogical

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Speaker 1: searching and also through familial searching, so there's enough fare

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Speaker 1: for them to do the searching and it was a

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Speaker 1: good enough sample. Sometimes the sample is enough, very good,

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Speaker 1: and they can't do familial searching or any other kind

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Speaker 1: of searching. New York State sometimes rejected I think probably

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Speaker 1: about a dozen or so samples they got from law

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Speaker 1: enforcement over the years, but recently because the samples are

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Speaker 1: just not good, you know, there's not enough to compare well.

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Speaker 1: This is what I know. New DNA methods could crack

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Speaker 1: this case. When the Golden State killer case was cracked

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Speaker 1: wide open based on familial DNA, the remaining relatives of

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Speaker 1: Eve Wilkowitz thought it would crack their case wide open

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Speaker 1: as well. We do know that Wilkowitz's relatives contacted a

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Speaker 1: private DNA group Now this private DNA group used this

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Speaker 1: investigated genealogical technique to solve violent crimes, and it sparked

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Speaker 1: interest in the technique parabond they did not do. The

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Speaker 1: Golden State killer case has since helped dozens of cases

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Speaker 1: become solved, and they are led by the company's genetic

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Speaker 1: genealogist ccmore. Now here's the problem. New York regulates private

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Speaker 1: companies performing DNA forensic tests. Cheryl a point genetic genealogist,

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Speaker 1: the gene hunter Shara, How difficult would it be too

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Speaker 1: if you got DNA? How much do you need? What

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Speaker 1: quality does it have to be? Not degenerated? How can

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Speaker 1: we do this, Nancy? This DNA would have to be

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Speaker 1: put in what we call a sniff file, and it

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Speaker 1: would have to be uploaded to the genealogical sites that

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Speaker 1: we use, the same sites that I use daily to

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Speaker 1: help adoptees find their biological family. You put that information

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Speaker 1: in there and you look for connections, biological connections to ancestors.

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Speaker 1: It would I believe this case definitely could benefit from

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Speaker 1: this process. We would look for shared ancestors. I build

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Speaker 1: a family tree, and I find common lines and give

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Speaker 1: leads to law enforcements that hopefully would direct them to

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Speaker 1: someone who is connected to this criminal. Share a point.

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Speaker 1: I've got a question for you for people that want

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Speaker 1: to do, for instance, ancestry dot com or whatever it

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Speaker 1: is they want to do, is there a way that

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Speaker 1: they make their names secret? Do they get false ID

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Speaker 1: so it makes it harder to track them down? Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: You can use aliases on any of these directed consumer

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Speaker 1: DNA testing companies, and oftentimes it is difficult for us

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Speaker 1: to find out who a match is. And again, all

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Speaker 1: we get is a name of who the matches are.

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Speaker 1: We don't see anyone's genetic code. We just get names.

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Speaker 1: So it's very possible to keep that information private. On

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Speaker 1: the site that law enforcement uses white jed match, we

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Speaker 1: have to actually enter an email to upload your information.

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Speaker 1: So that's how I have been contacted in the past

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Speaker 1: by law enforcement looking at matches that could possibly help

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Speaker 1: them with cases. And I know now that law enforcement

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Speaker 1: cases have to be specifically tagged for law enforcement use.

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Speaker 1: So unless you opt in or agree to law enforcement

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Speaker 1: using that, you won't be seen by law enforcement. You're right,

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Speaker 1: So that's another hurdle that will have to be crossed

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Speaker 1: to host of America Talk Ste's Next TV former NYPD

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Speaker 1: John Cardillo, What about it, John Cardillo, Well, look in

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Speaker 1: New York State we were talking about there's something very

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Speaker 1: bizarre going on there politically. You can see it with

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Speaker 1: their new no cash bail. New York State politicians and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to come out and say it, and I'll

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Speaker 1: take credit for it, are pro criminal. There's no other

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Speaker 1: way to phrase it, because the evidence supports it. We're

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Speaker 1: letting in New York State armed robbers, guys with four

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Speaker 1: to five bank robberies out on bail. And recently a

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Speaker 1: ninety two year old woman was raped and murdered by

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Speaker 1: a repeat offender set three hours after arrest because of

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Speaker 1: no cash bail. And so when you've got that pro criminal,

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Speaker 1: anti criminal justice, anti law and order mentality in New

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Speaker 1: York State, why would they deploy familiar DNA, which is

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Speaker 1: a travesty because it works, it's constitutional, investigatively sound, and

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Speaker 1: it's putting bad guys in prison. And I think the

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Speaker 1: people in New York State should be very, very alarmed

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Speaker 1: at what's going on. To fill the Toronto father of

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Speaker 1: slain jog Or Karina a Toronto, you pushed at New

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Speaker 1: York State to allow familial DNA correct correct and it

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Speaker 1: is allowed, And there were fourteen cases brought to New

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Speaker 1: York State Policy News Justice that were approved for use

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Speaker 1: of familiar DNA testing. So it's not the governor who's

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Speaker 1: putting the brakes on this. It's a very slow process,

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Speaker 1: but I'm trying to find out what he's taking them

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Speaker 1: so long. I mean, I've even heard that they've gotten

428
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: a few leads, you know, a few hits where it

429
00:28:50,920 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: might be a relation crime stories with Nancy grace A.

430
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: New York requires private companies that want to do familial testing,

431
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 1: although if it's been allowed in New York, the crime lab,

432
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: the state crime lab, should be doing it. But private

433
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: companies before they can do DNA forensic testing, they have

434
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: to get what is called a forensic identity permit from

435
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: the New York State Department of Health. And that requires

436
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: just private companies to make sure they're up to snuff

437
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: before they hand over any DNA. But you don't want

438
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: to lose a DNA or damage the DNA for future testing.

439
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 1: Doctor Chris Sperry, a former chief medical Examiner for the

440
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: entire state of Georgia. Doctor Sperry can't you reproduce DNA

441
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: in the lab. Say you've just got a tiny bit

442
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: of DNA, can it be regenerated so you can then

443
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: share some of that whether they I have a testing

444
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: company like peribond, Well you can amplify DNA, that is,

445
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: using special techniques. You can take a very very tiny

446
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: quantity of DNA and really amplify it or at large

447
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: it so you have more to work with. But it's

448
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: you know, it's a very tricky process as well, and

449
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: it's in order to do that and then share it

450
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: with other companies. That's you know, there's also room for

451
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: error if DNA is transferred from one one place to another.

452
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: The best process really is to collect as much specimens

453
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: as possible. Initially, say with the autopsy has done and

454
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: the examination of the victim has done, is collect all

455
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: the clothing, take multiple swabs from everywhere on and in

456
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: the body, especially in a suspect of where a rape

457
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: has been suspected, and then be very careful about testing

458
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: because only a tiny amount of specimen is really necessary, uh,

459
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: you know these days to do good accurate testing so

460
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: that those are that's part of the quality control aspects

461
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: of doing DNA testing is um, that one has to

462
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: be very careful. Unfortunately, today, very very very tiny quantities

463
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: are highly reliable. I mean they're dependable. So even tiny

464
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: amounts are dependable. And I think I'm hearing what you're

465
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: saying correctly or understanding it correctly. Doctor Sperry. Are you

466
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: saying that DNA cannot be reproduced but you can amplify

467
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: it or make it bigger so you have more to

468
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: test with. Yes, exactly, that's done. That's that's the part

469
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: of the routine process. I guess. I want you to

470
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at newsday so well,

471
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: I know she was out with her friend in the city.

472
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: She was working to end Mith Mill and Publishing in Manhattan,

473
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: and she was having dinner with her friend, and she

474
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: was going to go on the train to come home.

475
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: And I made at home and my kids, I worry

476
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: every little time they go out to do of my

477
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: last words then all times, be careful. You know, I

478
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: love you. I make sure I tell them every time

479
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: after I see you know when I see them, you

480
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: don't be careful to be safe? You know, you know

481
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: it's you just never know. How could he have lived

482
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: with himself all these years and not have turned himself

483
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: in or whatever he used to or how could he

484
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: you know, another human being do that's another human being.

485
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: It's just beyond my h you know, how it could,

486
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: how people could think all of it and anymore? What

487
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: are you waiting for? You know, this is the time.

488
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: You know, life is too short, too precious to you know,

489
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: let's help help my family find answers. It's just crazy already.

490
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: Well likely because the killer, the rapist wants to save

491
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: his own skin. He may have even committed more rapes

492
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: and murders to Tony to Stephana, Newsday journal is joining

493
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: as Tony, what is the hold up? Well, I still said,

494
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: you know it is allowed, And the problem is that

495
00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: there's a process that's a little bureaucratically cumbersome. Police agencies

496
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: have to sign with the state a memorandum of understanding.

497
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: And this became big flash point with the NYPD, and

498
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: which has no role in this case, the NYPD in

499
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: the state. But it's it's a process. You got to

500
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: sign us memorandom. You've got a year to certain processes

501
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: and practices. You also have to have your people go

502
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: through certain training. Uh. And you also have to get

503
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: a sample that is acceptable to the state. I don't

504
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: think that's a problem in this case, the Wilkowits case.

505
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 1: So again, hold up, I don't know all that. What

506
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: do you think up? Yeah, I think that the probable

507
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: hold up to me is that somewhere along the line

508
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: they haven't done these bureauratic things, that either they haven't

509
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 1: signed a memorandum of understanding or they haven't put enough

510
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: people through through training. The police commissioners said that they're

511
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: working on it's a process, and okay, that's that's what

512
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: she's doing. But it's a process. Take a listen to

513
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 1: our friends at Newsday. So I have been in contact

514
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: with the FBI on this case, in particular brief the moment,

515
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: and they are interested and they will open up an

516
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: investigation on their end, and then we'll collaborate together. Okay, say,

517
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: reason to be a little uptimistic now that the FBI

518
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: is getting involved, and maybe just maybe they'll be closure

519
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: not restricted by the Department of Health regulations on unlicensing

520
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: of outside laboratories. So they bring a myriad, as you know,

521
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: of resources to a case, that being one of them,

522
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: and and we're obviously going to pursue every available avenue

523
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: that we have and this is this is something that

524
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: we're very interested in pursuing my sister. This technology may

525
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,439
Speaker 1: became it just the right time. Their timeline is slow.

526
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: They do one case per month around the state moment,

527
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: so it's that's a little challenging for us, but for

528
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: we have we definitely take advantage of that. I wonder

529
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: how that makes as family feel. Listen to Mary Murphy

530
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,800
Speaker 1: picks eleven. The memories can be crushing for Irene Brassoner,

531
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: who started running after her mother died. She was later

532
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: diagnosed with a painful stomach condition, Crohn's disease. She started

533
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: doing half marathons to fundraise. I really didn't have any

534
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: friends whatsoever. With the sixteen challenge, the event the most

535
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: amazing people. When I'm running, that's my only time that

536
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 1: my mind is completely like at peace. Still, Brostner's own

537
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: medical challenges have continued in just two years. Had always

538
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: diagnosuppress cancer and had a bilateral messat to me, so

539
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,879
Speaker 1: I'm cancer for you. I think I sn't it right now,

540
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: And at fifty three, Brassener said it's time to speak

541
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: out for her sister. Her beloved father died in twenty

542
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: ten without getting justice. What is your hope now, Well,

543
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: it's a fine tif we did this to her. I

544
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: know we can't bring her back or anything. I have

545
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: to be her voice. It has to be now. If

546
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: you have information, call eight hundred two two to eight

547
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: four seven seven, repeat eight hundred two two zero eight

548
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 1: four seven seven and Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off,

549
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,