1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: If you could get a kiss from your favorite celebrity, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 1: how long would you want to wait before getting it? 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Why do things seem less meaningful or joyful over time 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: than they were at the beginning. And what does this 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: have to do with Netflix releasing all the episodes of 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: a new show at once so you can binge, Or 7 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: why companies always feel compelled to come out with new 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: and improved products every year, Or why French revolutionaries wanted 9 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: to make a week equal to five days instead of seven. 10 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Inner Cosmos with me David Eagleman. I'm a 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these episodes we 12 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: sail deeply into our three pound universe to understand why 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: and how our lives look the way they do. Today's 14 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:13,199 Speaker 1: episode is about why familiar things can sometimes lose their 15 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: sparkle and what we can do about that. So let's 16 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: start with the fact that when your brain sees something 17 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: new and then sees it again and again, it becomes 18 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: more efficient at processing it and it burns less energy 19 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: on it. So imagine the first time you hear a 20 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: really cool new song playing at the coffee shop. You've 21 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: never heard this before, and your brain is screaming with 22 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: activity processing the tune and the rhythm and the lyrics. 23 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: Why this is because in large part, your brain is 24 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: a prediction machine, and this is a new song, and 25 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: so it is unpredictable. You don't know where the lyrics 26 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: are going or the tune and so on. The song 27 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: is cool and interesting and it holds your attention and 28 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: you can't wait to hear it again. So you jump 29 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: on your cell phone and figure out the name, and 30 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: you play the song from the beginning, and you love it. 31 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: Now you listen again. Okay, it's still good. Are you 32 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: going to listen fourth time? Maybe tenth time? It's not 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: clear you're getting the same enjoyment out of it at 34 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: this point. So this is what economists refer to as 35 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: diminishing returns. You're not getting as much out of it 36 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: as you were at first. And in neuroscience we can 37 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: measure this directly in brain activity, and what we see 38 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: is less and less activity in the brain each time 39 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: the song plays. So the first time your brain is 40 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: on fire with activity, and then the second time we 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: measure slightly less. And as you listen to the same 42 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: song again and again, you have lower and lower activity. 43 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: This is called repetition suppression, which is to say that 44 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: repeating something increasingly suppresses the brain's response. Why, well, it's 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: because we devote attention to things that are surprising. Because 46 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: the brain's job is to make an internal model of 47 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: the world, and the way that you optimize learning that 48 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: model is by ignoring the stuff that you already know 49 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: and just paying attention to surprises. So in the case 50 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 1: of the song at the coffee shop, you're not enjoying 51 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,679 Speaker 1: it less because the music is any different, but because 52 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: you're different, your brain has become more and more efficient 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: at recognizing and processing the song, and that frees up 54 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: its cognitive resources for other tasks. Or just think about 55 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: the first time you walked into your living room when 56 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: you were first shopping for a place to live. The 57 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: first time you entered, you were keenly attending to the 58 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: layout and the colors of the pain and the lighting 59 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: and the smell and the sounds. But now that you 60 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: are an expert on your living room, you don't notice 61 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: any of this. All your brain cares about consciously is novelty. 62 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: In this case, is there anything out of place in 63 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: your living room? Did the couch get shifted over? Or 64 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: is there a stain on the ceiling, or is there 65 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: a candy wrapper on the floor. This is how the 66 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: brain constantly optimizes its function by paying attention to new 67 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: things and not. 68 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: Responding to the familiar. 69 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: Now, this is at the heart of what drives brain plasticity, 70 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: how your brain constantly is reconfiguring its circuitry. And in fact, 71 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: in my book Live Wired, I proposed a new framework 72 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: called infotropism, which is how the brain constantly seeks to 73 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: extract the richest information from the world, which always comes 74 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: from the new things, the things that it didn't already predict. So, 75 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: just like plants do phototropism where they move towards the light, 76 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: so brains grow their circuitry toward the highest new information. 77 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: Now that's what's happening under the hood. But what I 78 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: want to explore today is the consequence of this, how 79 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: that influences our daily lives, Like the fact that familiar 80 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: things like songs and living rooms and relationships and jobs 81 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: and so on lose their color with time, and what 82 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: we might do about that. So for that I called 83 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: up my colleague Tolly share It. She's a neuroscientist and 84 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: professor of cognitive neuroscience at University College London and at MIT. 85 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: And she's recently co authored a book with Cass Sunstein, 86 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 1: the author and legal scholar at Harvard, and this book 87 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: is called Look Again, The Power of Noticing What Was 88 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: Always There. So here is my interview with Tlly. Kelly 89 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: tell us what is habituation. 90 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 3: So, habituation is our tendency to respond less and less 91 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 3: to things that are repeated or that are constant. So 92 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 3: let's take a really easy example. You enter into your room. 93 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 3: It's full of smoke. At first, the smell of smoke, 94 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: maybe it's cigarette smoke, is quite overwhelming. But after twenty minutes, 95 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 3: studies show you can't even detect the smell. You habituated 96 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: to it. And just that you habituate to smells or 97 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: even to a cold you know, you jump into a pool. 98 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: It's really cool at the beginning. After a few minutes 99 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 3: you kind of get used to it. We also habituate 100 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,679 Speaker 3: two kind of more complex things in our life, both 101 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 3: good and bad, and so we have less of an 102 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: emotional reaction to them. Right, So maybe it's a romance 103 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 3: that was exciting at first and you habituated to it 104 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 3: over time. Maybe it's a new house that is really 105 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: brings you joy, but while you kind of stop noticing 106 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 3: it as much. As a consequence, those things that really 107 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 3: should bring us more joy on a daily basis do 108 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: so less because of habituation. And on the other side, 109 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: you also habituate to the bad things. So there might 110 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: be a lot of you know, bad things, even some 111 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 3: terrible things around us. But if they're constant, if they're 112 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 3: there all the time, we stop noticing them. Sexism, racism, 113 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 3: cracks in our personal relationship, inefficiencies at the workplace, and 114 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: if we stop noticing them, that means that we also 115 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: less driven to change them. 116 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: Now, why do you brains habituate? Is it critical for survival? 117 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a few reasons. I mean, first of all, 118 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 3: it's important to say that every animal habituates. It's not 119 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: just humans, right, every single animal and I would say 120 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: probably every neuron in our brain shows this habituation. Right. 121 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: They fire less and less when things are constant. When 122 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 3: you see something that is, you know, in a range 123 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: of species, that's just there's probably a good reason for it. 124 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: There's probably an adaptive reason for this. So a simple 125 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: one is it means that you can save resources. Right, 126 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: So if your Neuren's keep responding to things around you, 127 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 3: but those things don't change. You're kind of like using 128 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 3: resources that you should probably save for the next thing 129 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: that is coming your way. Right, So it's a way 130 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 3: to save resources. That makes sense. If something doesn't kill you, 131 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 3: probably you can stop responding to it, and you might 132 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: need to, you know, respond to something else that's coming 133 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 3: your way. But on a higher level as well, it 134 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 3: does motivate us. So if you imagine your first entry 135 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: level job, you were probably really excited about your first 136 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 3: entry level job, but if you were as excited about 137 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: your entry level job ten years later, you wouldn't be 138 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: motivated to go, you know, and get that next thing, 139 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: get that promotion. Right, So it's a way to keep 140 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 3: us motivated, and that's good, which means that it kind 141 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 3: of dries us to progress, to try new things, to evolve. 142 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 3: And then the third reason is that it is on 143 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: average also good for our mental health, mostly because we 144 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 3: tend to habituate to the bad things in life, which 145 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 3: means we could bounce back. You know, there are things 146 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 3: that happen, perhaps a breakup romantic relationship, a loss of 147 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 3: a job, or you just didn't get a project that 148 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 3: you were wanting to get. If you just continue feeling 149 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 3: bad about this and dwelling in it over and over 150 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: and over, then you won't be able to just go, 151 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: you know, progress and move ahead. So in fact, we 152 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: see that individuals who habituate slower to the negative things 153 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 3: in their life, they tend to have more symptoms of 154 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: depression and in general. In fact, we see that problems 155 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 3: in habituation, different problems of different kinds, are associated with 156 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 3: a whole host of different mental health disorders and psychopathologies. 157 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 2: Got it, okay, So that's habituation. 158 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: We get used to things, our brains establish a model 159 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: of the world, and once they have that model, then 160 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to use much energy to represent it. 161 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: So what is this concept that you've introduced about dishabituation? 162 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:25,680 Speaker 3: Right, So, disabituation means that you suddenly notice something that 163 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 3: you've habituated to, so you're stunnenly starting to respond to 164 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 3: it again. And we have an example. It's a visual 165 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: example which I think kind of makes a point in 166 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: the book. When you open it in the inside cover, 167 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: it's blobs of different colors. You have green, yellow, pink, blue, 168 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 3: with a little fixation in the middle and if you 169 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 3: just fixate on this fixation in the middle and don't 170 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: move your eyes for about thirty second or so, what 171 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: will happen is that those colors will suddenly become great. 172 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 3: You won't be able to see the colors, and if 173 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 3: you're really good at it, the gray eventually becomes white. 174 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 3: That is habituation, and that happens because the same neurons 175 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: are getting the same input of color, and so they 176 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: stop responding. Now the moment you move your eyes, then 177 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: you experience dishabituation. The moment you move your eyes, you 178 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,559 Speaker 3: can see color again. So now different neurons are getting 179 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 3: different input and now you can perceive the color again. 180 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 3: So that's disabituation, being able to feel and notice things 181 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: that perhaps you had stopped noticing because they were there 182 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: all the time and you habituated to them in the past. 183 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: So what are some real life examples of disabituation. 184 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: So let's take kind of like a simple example. We 185 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: habituate to our environment. Right, I'm sitting in my office. 186 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 3: I'm not noticing all the things around me because I'm 187 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: used to them. Right, I'm sitting here many hours many days. 188 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 3: But if I leave my office or even let's say 189 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: I leave my home for a certain amount of time, 190 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 3: perhaps it's a weekend, perhaps it's a week away on business. 191 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 3: When I come back, I will experience, at least for 192 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: a short amount of time, dishabituation. So suddenly I will 193 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 3: start noticing things again and I will appreciate the good. 194 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: So maybe there's nice views out the windows that you know, 195 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 3: now I can see green outside my window, but it's 196 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 3: not really bringing me as much joy because I'm habituated 197 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 3: to it. But if I'm kind of going away and 198 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: then I'm coming back, now I start noticing things again, 199 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 3: even the small things. You know. It could also be 200 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 3: family members you take it's you know, you take them 201 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: for granted they're there, but being away for a week, 202 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: you come back and you're kind of like, oh, you know, 203 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 3: you feel the joy again. There's a wonderful quote from 204 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 3: Jodi Foster, which actually we saw after the book was 205 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:49,559 Speaker 3: already written, so it's not in the book. And the 206 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 3: book we have something else also interesting by Julia Robinson. 207 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: But this this. 208 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: Quote from Jodie Foster. She talks about how she left 209 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 3: her home in La for I think it's six months 210 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: or so. She went on site to film and then 211 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: she says, what happens when she came back? So she says, 212 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: I came back from somewhere that is amazing and beautiful, 213 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 3: but you know, you long for really dumb things that 214 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: you've just used to that six months ago, I'm sure 215 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 3: I was bored by. But right now I'm like, my god, 216 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 3: avocados are amazing. Or I'm so glad I get to 217 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 3: get to go to the gym again. So things that 218 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 3: six months ago were sort of what I was trying 219 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 3: to escape from. Now everything is amazing. Right, So what 220 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 3: she's describing is dishabituation. Right, she comes back and now 221 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: she's disabituated to avocados, she's disabituated to working out in 222 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 3: the gym, and now those things become, you know, something 223 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: that brings hers joy. Of course, this is not going 224 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 3: to last very long, probably just a few weeks. But 225 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: that's that's disabituation. 226 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 1: So what does this have to do with companies putting 227 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: out new and improved products every year, or car manufacturers, 228 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: you know, changing tweaking the model even though the model 229 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: is perfectly great last year. What does all this have 230 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: to do with that? 231 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: Right? So we habituate to material things, right, So when 232 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: you buy that new phone you may be excited at first, 233 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 3: or the new car or the TV. But if they're 234 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: there all the time, you use them every day, the 235 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: joy goes down over time. 236 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 4: Right. 237 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 3: And then when you know they come out with oh 238 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 3: new and exciting, that won't makes you want to get 239 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 3: that new things to get the kind of like joy, right, 240 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: the little boost of joy from this new thing, which 241 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 3: of course you will habituate too after a while. Again, 242 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 3: so it does drive consumption, and in fact it probably 243 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 3: drives over consumption. 244 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: Interestingly, in the book, you talk about disabituation entrepreneurs as 245 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: people who see things that have become normal to everyone 246 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: else and they try to make changes. And one example 247 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: that I've always loved is during the French Revolution, there 248 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: were people who said, look now that we're building a 249 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: new society here, let's change the week from seven days 250 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: where you work five days and have a weekend to 251 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: a five day week where you work for three days 252 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 1: and then you have two days off. And I remember 253 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: that striking me when I was a high school student 254 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: and learned about that, because I was so used to 255 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: the idea of a week being seven days, and it 256 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: never struck me that you could do something different, So 257 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: tell us about dishabituation entrepreneurs. 258 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 4: Right. 259 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 3: So the idea is it's an interesting example that you're mentioning. 260 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: So the examples that we have in our book is 261 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 3: mostly about how we kind of get used to discrimination 262 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 3: in our society or inequality. And the idea is that 263 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 3: if discrimination or inequality or other kind of not so 264 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: great things that our society are around us all the time, 265 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 3: we stop seeing them. In order to see them again. 266 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: One thing is we could have someone to kind of 267 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: like say, well, this is what's happening, which is hard 268 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 3: to do, right, how do you do that? How do 269 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 3: you make people notice these things that are just the 270 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 3: norms have been in society for such a long time. 271 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: And maybe i'll just before I tell you how one 272 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 3: can do that, let me give you an example of 273 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,359 Speaker 3: why we will actually not be able to see discrimination 274 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 3: and in quality if it's been around all the time. 275 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: So the main reason is that our brain is a 276 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 3: statistical machine. So we have experiences in our life, and 277 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: based on these experiences, our brain makes assumption about what 278 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: is a norm, right, what is to be expected? And 279 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: if what you encounter is what you expected, there's no 280 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: surprise signal in the brain, you don't notice it. So 281 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 3: let's take a simple example. You walk into a plane 282 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 3: and you look at the cockpit and the pilot is 283 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 3: a man. And your experience is that in most cases 284 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: when you walk on a plane into a plane, you 285 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: look at the cockpit, most times it is a man, 286 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: and so your brain has made these predictions and the 287 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 3: experience fits your prediction. So now there's no surprise signal, right, 288 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 3: nothing to think about. So we don't notice that. Not 289 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: only does a brain makes predictions based on the experiences 290 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 3: that we've had, but it also makes assumptions about why 291 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 3: we see these things. Right, So maybe the assumption that 292 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 3: you would make is that males are better at handling 293 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: large equipment. And now those assumptions may actually influence your 294 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 3: actions and decisions. So maybe it will influence who do 295 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: you decide to hire, who do decide to promote, And 296 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 3: that is the problem that we're facing. What you want 297 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 3: is a surprise signal, right, What you want is actually 298 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: to go on a plane, and when you see that 299 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: ninety percent of the pilots are man, you want actually 300 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 3: to have a surprise signal to be well, that's unusual. 301 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 3: Why is that the case? So with disapituation entrepreneurs. You 302 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 3: want them to induce a surprise signal. 303 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's get back to this issue about how 304 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: we disabituate in our lives and what we can do 305 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: about it. So you quote the economist T. Boor Satowski 306 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: who says pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires. 307 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: So unpack that for. 308 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 3: Us, yes, okay. So the idea is that pleasure will 309 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 3: reduce when we are encountering things, even if they're super great, 310 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: if we're encountering again and again and again, the pleasure 311 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 3: will be reduced, right. And what we want is we 312 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 3: want to create breaks from those pleasurable things in order 313 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 3: to experience a pleasure again. And let me give you 314 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: first an example of just how pleasure goes down over time. 315 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 3: So I was working with a big travel agency a 316 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: few years ago, and they wanted to know what makes 317 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 3: people happiest on vacations. So we went to resorts and 318 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: we ask people questions to figure out what makes them 319 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 3: happy and when are they the happiest. And what we 320 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 3: found was that people were happiest forty three hours into 321 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 3: a vacation. So forty three hours in that's when like 322 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 3: pleasure was peeking, right, And after that the amount of 323 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: pleasure went down and down and down and down over time. 324 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 3: You know, day eight they were still happy, but they 325 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 3: weren't happy as they were at day two, forty three 326 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: hours in Why is that? Well, forty three hours give 327 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: them some time to unpack, you know, and start focusing 328 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: on fun. But from that time on, pleasure just reduces 329 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: because of habituation. So the things around them are less noticeable, 330 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: so brings less joy. And the other interesting finding here 331 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 3: that when we ask people what was the most fun 332 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 3: part of the vacation that brought you most joy, the 333 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: word that they used more than any other word was 334 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 3: the word first. They said, the first view of the ocean, 335 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 3: the first cocktail I had, the first suncastle that I built. 336 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: Now the second view of the ocean that was still great, 337 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 3: and the second cocktail for the fifth cop that was 338 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: still good, but not as good as a first. And 339 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 3: that is because the first are the new experiences. 340 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 4: Right. 341 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 3: So if you think about, okay, so how can I 342 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: make a vacation more joyful? It suggests that one way 343 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 3: to do it is perhaps to have more frequent vacations 344 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: but shorter ones, and of course sometimes this is not 345 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 3: possible if you're flying to the other side of the world, 346 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: that that will be difficult. But perhaps you can have 347 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 3: vacations that are closer to home, but just have more 348 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: of them. So have more of those firsts, more of 349 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 3: those forty three hours in. Okay, So that's that's talking 350 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 3: about vacations. But let's think about things that are that 351 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 3: are simple, even more you know, simple than a vacation. 352 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 3: So there's a really surprising experiment that looked into when 353 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 3: and why does music bring us joy? So they had 354 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 3: people listen to a song that they liked, and before 355 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 3: they listened to the song, they said, Hey, would you 356 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: like to listen to this song from beginning to end 357 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 3: no internal options? Or would you like to listen to 358 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 3: this song with small interruptions every twenty seconds? I'll stop 359 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 3: the song for ten seconds. What would you prefer, David, 360 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 3: If you had that, it certainly. 361 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: Seems like I want to listen to the continuous version, right. 362 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 3: So ninety nine percent of the people said no breaks 363 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 3: for me, please, right. It is the most intuitive thing. Surprisingly, however, 364 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: when they actually did the test, so they had one 365 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 3: group listened at beginning to end, and the other group, 366 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 3: they had breaks in between. What they found that, in fact, overall, 367 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: people enjoyed the song more with breaks, and they were 368 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 3: willing to pay double to hear this song in concerts. 369 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 3: So why is that, Well, if you're listening to the 370 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: song from beginning to end right no interruption, you're really 371 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 3: enjoying at the beginning, and then perhaps you're enjoying it 372 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: less over time because of habituation. Again, you're enjoying it throughout, 373 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 3: but less versus I break it after twenty seconds, and 374 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 3: now when I start again, so you disabituate. So now 375 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 3: I'm starting again, the joy pops up again, right, and 376 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,919 Speaker 3: then you started habituating. I break it, there's a dishabituation, 377 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: so joy goes up again, and so on and so forth. 378 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 3: And they did that with other things like a massage. 379 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: They asked, hey, do you want a massage beginning to 380 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 3: end no interruptions or would you like interruptions in your massage? 381 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 3: Everyone said, of course, I don't want interruptions in my massage. 382 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 3: But again, when they did the experiment, people enjoyed a 383 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 3: massage more when there were interruptions, because you know, they 384 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 3: habituated to the massage. There was a break they started again, 385 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: Joy pops up and so on and so forth. So 386 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 3: that suggests that we want to break things up right 387 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 3: instead of binging on that Netflix show in one night, 388 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 3: you know, take it a little bit at a time. 389 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: So Netflix recently started a new model where they'll release 390 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: an entire season all at once that people can binge. 391 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: But it sounds like your advice would be different. 392 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: Yes, And in fact, I've heard a lot of discussion 393 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 3: about this. Not only do I think you will enjoy 394 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 3: it more right if you have to one half of 395 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: a week or whatever, wait a week, Not only will 396 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 3: you enjoy the experience at the time, what you're also 397 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 3: gaining is a joy of anticipation. There is I told 398 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 3: you about vacations and how forty three hours in is 399 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: the most joy. In fact, the most most joy tends 400 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 3: to be before you even left your house to go 401 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: on vacation. So in fact, when they looked at people 402 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: for a whole week before they went on vacation, they 403 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: found that people were actually happiest the day before the vacation, 404 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 3: so the day before they even were, you know, going 405 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 3: on the plane. And the reason was that the day 406 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 3: before they were excited, the anticipation of what was about 407 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 3: to come, right, because in their mind the vacation was 408 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 3: so wonderful, And when they went a vacation, it was good, 409 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 3: but it wasn't quite good as it was in their 410 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: mind the day before. So anticipation, I mean, there's wonderful 411 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 3: studies showing that anticipation brings us joy, and often it 412 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 3: brings us more joy than the actual experience, and that 413 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 3: people are actually willing to pay to get this anticipation. 414 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 3: So another wonderful study by George Lowenstein, he had a 415 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 3: group of people come in and he said, pick a celebrity. 416 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: So pick a celebrity, David in your mind. And then 417 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 3: he said okay, and all all the listeners he said, okay, 418 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 3: imagine getting a kiss from the celebrity. So I hope 419 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: you chose a good one. And then he said, how 420 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,880 Speaker 3: much are you willing to pay to get a kiss 421 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 3: from the celebrity if the kiss was to be delivered immediately, 422 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 3: in one hour, one day, three days, a year, ten years, 423 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 3: and so on. And he found that people were willing 424 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 3: to pay the most to get a kiss from a celebrity, 425 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 3: not if the kiss was to be delivered now, but 426 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 3: if the case was to be delivered in free days, 427 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 3: because that gave people free days of like imagining it, 428 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 3: where is going to happen? How is it going to happen? 429 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 3: And that anticipation gave them gave them joy. So back 430 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 3: to our Netflix shows, not only will you enjoy it 431 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: more while you're seeing it because there's less habituation, but 432 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 3: you will also gain the anticipation. There's also, i mean, 433 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 3: specifically related to Netflix and shows, there's also this sense 434 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 3: that some shows have this kind of cultural buzz around them, right, 435 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 3: So you're you're making that longer as well, allowing people 436 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 3: to experience things more at the same time and to 437 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 3: discuss it, you know, you go to work talk about it. 438 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 3: This is I think something that happens less today than 439 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: it did when we were younger, when there was less 440 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 3: of these you know streaming, there was just a few 441 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,239 Speaker 3: channels with a few shows where a show was kind 442 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 3: of a big thing. You know, everyone may have talked 443 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 3: about it, but still it still happens even today. 444 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: Am I remembering correctly that way back in the day, 445 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: movies used to have intermissions halfway through they would just 446 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: stop and then you'd go out and. 447 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 2: Get popcorn and whatever. 448 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder I wonder if that ended up being 449 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: you know, gaining slightly higher ratings as a result of that. 450 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: But what about watching a movie on TV that is 451 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: broken up by commercials that seems really annoying? We don't 452 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: enjoy that more, do we? 453 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 3: So this is something that Daniel Gilbert told me, and 454 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 3: I haven't actually seen the article itself, but the words 455 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: of Daniel Gilbert, he says that there is a study 456 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 3: that shows that overall people enjoy show more with commercials. 457 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 3: I have to go and find this. He said. This 458 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 3: is by Hal Harshfeldt, so we should be able to 459 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 3: find it. But yeah, so that's apparently also a counterintuitive finding. 460 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: So tell us about ways that we can really implement 461 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: this in our lives. In the book, you mentioned when 462 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: you got COVID and you got exiled to the basement 463 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: of your house and you actually you know, enjoyed the 464 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: new bedroom and the you know, seeing things from a 465 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: different point of view. How can we inject this into 466 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: our lives? 467 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 4: Right? 468 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 3: Okay, So there's two things, and one is going back 469 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 3: to this idea of breaks, so inducing breaks into your life. 470 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 3: So yes, you can go away for a weekend or 471 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 3: a week or so, but something you're not always able 472 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 3: to do that, and so perhaps you can take a 473 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 3: break from your life while you're still you know, in 474 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: your house. And so this is indeed a story that 475 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: I tell in the book where I had COVID so 476 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 3: I had to go down to the basement so the 477 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 3: rest of my family won't get it. And surprisingly it 478 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 3: was it was sort of an interesting experience. It wasn't 479 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: that bad. It was a bit like going camping. And 480 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 3: then I was there for maybe three days. When I 481 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 3: when I came back out to the ground floor to 482 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 3: the world, everything seems like they it was resparkling, right, 483 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 3: My life was resparkling, because now I saw it, I 484 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 3: was disabituating, right. I went from the basement up to 485 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 3: my regular home and things just seemed a little bit better. 486 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,800 Speaker 3: So that's it, you know, you might have a little 487 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 3: vacation in your basement. But there's another way, which this 488 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: one we actually heard Lori Stantis talk about, and she said, 489 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 3: close your eyes and imagine your life without your family, 490 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,119 Speaker 3: without your home, without your job, right, try to like 491 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 3: really imagine it with vividness and detail. And that really 492 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: scares people, right obviously, and when you open your eyes. 493 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 3: Then again that can cause some kind of resparkling and 494 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: dishabituation just by using your imagination. And now the other 495 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: way to induce more disabituation less habituation is diversifying your 496 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 3: life life right, inducing more variety into it. And variety 497 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 3: can take many forms. It could be maybe living in 498 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: different places, but it could be more simple like trying 499 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 3: to interact with different type of people if possible at 500 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 3: work working on different projects. Many companies have these rotations 501 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 3: where employees can go actually work in different divisions, right, 502 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 3: And that can cause this a situation and induce variety. 503 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 3: And in fact, when you ask people about what they 504 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: actually want out of life, there are free things that 505 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 3: people usually say. First of all, they say two things 506 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: that they usually say and another for surprising ones. So 507 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 3: the first thing that they usually say is happiness, right, 508 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 3: we all want to be happy, we want to feel joy, 509 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 3: we don't want to be sad. The second thing that 510 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 3: people say is meaning. They want the life to have purpose. 511 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 3: That makes sense as well. However, things that bring you 512 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 3: happiness and things that bring you per usually do so 513 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 3: less over time because of habituation. So even if you're 514 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 3: working in a very meaningful job, like let's say you're 515 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 3: a cancer cancer researcher. Over time, it may feel less 516 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 3: purposeful and less meaningful that it did at the very beginning. 517 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: But then there's this third thing which is overlooked and 518 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 3: which really contributes to a psychological rich life, which is variety. 519 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 3: If you're trying different things and doing different things, you 520 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 3: are inducing this habituation, which means that those things that 521 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 3: make you happy are going to make you more happy, 522 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 3: and those things that have a feeling of purposeful and 523 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: meaningful will do so more because of this variety. And 524 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: what variety also does, it puts you in a state 525 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: of learning. Because if you're changing, you're changing your environment, 526 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: you're changing the people you're talking to, you're changing what 527 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 3: you're working on. You need to learn. You need to 528 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 3: kind of figure out the hierarchy perhaps in the new environment, 529 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 3: how things work. And it turns out that learning induces 530 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 3: joy even more than material goods. So there are quite 531 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 3: a few studies on this wonderful study by Rutledge and 532 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 3: the Blaine shows that when they had participants do a 533 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 3: task and they gave them money for performing well, they 534 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 3: were happy when they got money for performing well, but 535 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 3: in fact they were happiest when they learned something new 536 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 3: about the task. So by having variety, and variety can 537 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 3: be like you can take a new course about something 538 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: that is outside of your field, learning new skill, and 539 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 3: that has been shown to induce joy because people like 540 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: to see themselves progress. When you really feel down is 541 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 3: when you feel that you are in a status quo. 542 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 3: You can even be quite let's say professionally, you can 543 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 3: be really up high, but if you're not moving upwards, 544 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: that can actually induce low mood and even to some 545 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: extent depression. 546 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: You know, this is very interesting because I always recommend 547 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: people pursuing new challenges that are between the levels of 548 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: frustrating but achievable. And I'm telling this from the point 549 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: of view of cognitive fitness, of you know, making new 550 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: roadways in the brain and keeping fit that way. But 551 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: your point adds to that beautifully, which is it also 552 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: brings joy. 553 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 2: You know. 554 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: I just want to mention something that you said a 555 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: moment ago about this idea of closing your eyes and 556 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: imagining that things are gone. I received fortune cookie many 557 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: years ago that said, if you want to love something, 558 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: imagine it is lost, and I thought that was so 559 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: beautiful and powerful because it's exactly the same thing that 560 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: you said, which is, Okay, I'm going to induce variety 561 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: in my life by taking all these things that I've 562 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: totally habituated to, and I'm just going to imagine that 563 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: they're gone, either they died or I never met these 564 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: people in my life or whatever the situation is. And 565 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: then yes, when you when you come back to reality, 566 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: there's more, there's more appreciation there. 567 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 2: Okay, So how do. 568 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: We implement this kind of knowledge in our lives, let's say, 569 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: with relationships. 570 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, in fact, we were listening to Esther Perrell. 571 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 3: What she recommends seems really consistent with this whole idea. 572 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 3: So she says that when she asked people, she surveyed people, 573 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 3: and she asked them when are you most attracted to 574 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 3: your partner. The answers tended to be of two types. 575 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 3: One was when I'm away from my partner and then 576 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 3: I'm coming back, right, So this is exactly the break, right, 577 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 3: So that's when they are very attracted to the partner. 578 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 3: And the second one was when I see my partner 579 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 3: in a new situation. Perhaps they're talking to strangers at 580 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 3: a party, perhaps they're on stage, which I've never seen 581 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 3: them like that. So this is the idea of variety, right, 582 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 3: and novelty. And she talks a lot about how novelty 583 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 3: and I don't know if she says that exact word, 584 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 3: but that a little bit of distance and novelty can 585 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 3: actually induce fire, and too much familiarity can actually reduce it. 586 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: So on one hand, we want shared experiences, of course, 587 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 3: but on the other hand, suddenly seeing your partner in 588 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 3: a different light that you've never had before, according to 589 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: her research, actually increases attraction. So in terms of how 590 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 3: do we do that, how would we implement that in 591 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 3: our relationships? I think two things. One is taking a 592 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: break and I don't mean like breaking up for a while, 593 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 3: I mean like, you know, a night away on your own, right, 594 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,919 Speaker 3: just an evening or a weekend. And the second is 595 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 3: shaking things up by trying different things right, instead of 596 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 3: doing the same thing over and over. We have routines 597 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 3: that those are good too, right to have with your tradition, 598 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,760 Speaker 3: but trying things that are different. 599 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 600 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: And what's interesting is across the animal kingdom there's this 601 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: exploitation exploration trade off, which just means animals spend about 602 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,240 Speaker 1: eighty percent of their time exploiting the things that they 603 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: have learned that they know, and twenty percent of their 604 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: time exploring new things. And they have to do this 605 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: because the world changes and you can't ever be certain 606 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: that the knowledge you have is going to carry you 607 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: distantly into the future. So they spend some percentage of 608 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: their time trying out new things. And it sounds like 609 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: this is exactly what we need to make sure we 610 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: implement purposefully in our lives, because it's so easy to 611 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: land in a routine and keep that up with our careers, 612 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: with our relationships, everything, it's important to seek that variety. 613 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 2: What other pieces of advice would you. 614 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: Have along those lines for not all relationships, but our careers, 615 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: our lives. 616 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, actually, let me just pick up what you 617 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 3: were saying about exploration and exploitation. In fact, in the 618 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,480 Speaker 3: book we talk. 619 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 4: A little bit about explorers and exploiters in the sense 620 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: of relationships as well, because so you said, you know, 621 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 4: on average, perhaps eighty percent of the time we're exploiting, 622 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 4: meaning we're trying, we're doing the same thing over and over. 623 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 3: In twenty percent we're exploring. But of course there's a 624 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 3: lot of individual differences, so there are people who are explorers. 625 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 3: They're like they want to try new things, whether it 626 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 3: is travel to different places, trying new restaurants, right. And 627 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 3: then there are more people who are more exploiters. They 628 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 3: like to do the thing that they know, go to 629 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 3: the same restaurant, have a stay staycation, you know, when 630 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 3: you stay at home. And what this is not based on, 631 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,760 Speaker 3: you know, real data, but what me and my co ofer, 632 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: Cass Sunstein, have noticed in our own lives and the 633 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,479 Speaker 3: people around us. We've noticed that within couples there tend 634 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 3: to be an explorer and exploiter, right, And that would 635 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 3: make sense that that would be a good, good union 636 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 3: because the real optimal point is probably somewhere in the middle. 637 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,399 Speaker 3: You don't want to just explore all the time because 638 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 3: then you won't be exploiting the good things. And you 639 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 3: don't want to just exploit because then you're kind of 640 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 3: what's known is you're going to be stuck in the 641 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 3: local maxima, which means you think you're in a good 642 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 3: place here, but there's all of these other good, you know, 643 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 3: better places around you. And if you are in that 644 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 3: kind of relationship, you're pushing each other exactly perhaps towards 645 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 3: the optimal point. So in Cassa's situation, he thinks of 646 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 3: his self as exploiter and his wife and as an explorer. 647 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 3: In my relationship it's the opposite, meaning I'm the explorer. 648 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 3: My husband is more of an exploiter. And sometimes it 649 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 3: could especially I think at the beginning of a relationship, 650 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 3: it might cause a little bit of friction. You know, 651 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 3: you want to do all these things and the other 652 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 3: person just wants to do the same thing. But if 653 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 3: it's really a successful relationship, it pushes both people perhaps 654 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 3: towards a better place. 655 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: In terms of careers. What advice do you have for people? 656 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 3: Again, there are individual differences, and there are preferences, and 657 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 3: in fact, there's also individual differences in how fast you habituate. 658 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 3: So there are people who habituate way faster than others, 659 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 3: and that will lead to these preferences because I think 660 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 3: if you're habituating faster, then perhaps you feel like you 661 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 3: want more of an exploration. So if you are in 662 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 3: a situation where you are not feeling like you're moving 663 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 3: and learning and progressing, which tends to happen a lot 664 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 3: in middle life, and we can talk about why that 665 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 3: is in a second. So that is perhaps a time 666 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 3: to push a little bit more into the exploration, right, 667 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 3: try new things. It could be simple things like take 668 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 3: a new route to work if you're always driving, try 669 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 3: to bike. It could be simple things like that, or 670 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 3: could be like, let's try a different projects, let's try 671 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,280 Speaker 3: to gain a new skill. The impact of these things 672 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 3: are huge. Oh, back to midlife, Yeah, does it happen 673 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 3: to mid life? So there's this really interesting phenomena which 674 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 3: is the U shape of happiness, which is happiness tends 675 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 3: to be relatively high in kids and teenagers, and then 676 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: it goes down, down, down, down, down, reaches rock bottom 677 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 3: in your midlife on average. Right, there's lots of variations 678 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 3: on average, and then it actually starts going up again, 679 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 3: and it continues going up on average until the last 680 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 3: couple of years of life. But that midlife, that's really 681 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 3: the downpoint for a good number of people. And again 682 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 3: there's variations. I'm sure you have listeners who are no, 683 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 3: midlife is my happiest time. But that's when you look 684 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 3: at you know, thousands and thousands of thousands of individuals. 685 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 3: And we think that there's many reasons for this, but 686 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 3: one is that midlife is really the time where you 687 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 3: have the most amount of sameness. For most people, you've 688 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 3: been in the same relationship for quite a while. On average, 689 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 3: you may have been in the same job quite a while. Average, 690 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 3: perhaps you're at the top of your career, but you've 691 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 3: been there for a while. And partially people you know 692 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 3: they have kids and that act that also limits the 693 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 3: amount of exploration that you could do. If you think 694 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 3: about it, when you're younger, each day is new. I 695 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 3: mean you're learning something new every single day when you're 696 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 3: growing up. When you're young and even in your twenties, 697 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 3: you need to figure out who am I going to 698 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 3: be with. You're exploring all the different options, you're studying, 699 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: you're learning new things, and it's midlife when it's kind 700 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 3: of the sameness. And counterintuitively, later in life is when 701 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 3: you start you need to learn again because that's the 702 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 3: kids are leaving the house, perhaps you're retiring. What are 703 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 3: you going to do with your life? And it's really scary, 704 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,720 Speaker 3: but it jaws people into this new situation, new environment, 705 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 3: and they need to figure it out, so it enhances 706 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 3: learning and often people will try new things. So if 707 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 3: you're stuck in midlife, then you need to start thinking 708 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 3: about you know, how can I induce variety? What can 709 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 3: I change? And change is difficult because it requires effort. 710 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 3: The easiest thing you can do is stick with the 711 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 3: status quo. That's easy, you know how to do it. 712 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 3: It is certain, right If you make a change that's uncertain, 713 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 3: you don't know if it's going to be good or bad. 714 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 3: You're going to put in the effort and you don't 715 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 3: know what you're going to get. If I do the 716 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 3: same thing over and over, I know what I'm going 717 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 3: to get, so at least I'm not anxious and uncertain 718 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 3: about it. I might be unhappy about it, but it 719 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 3: requires less effort, so it changes a little bit. Is hard, 720 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 3: but there are studies showing that all ills being equal, 721 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,240 Speaker 3: change does induce well being and happiness. A great study 722 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 3: by Stephen Levite. He asked people. They went online and 723 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 3: he asked them, is there something that you want to change? 724 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 3: And it could be something small like the color of 725 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 3: my hair, or it could be something bigger, like entering, 726 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 3: exiting a relationship, starting a new job, taking, you know, 727 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 3: learning a new skill. And they wrote down the change, 728 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 3: and then he asked them to flip a virtual coin 729 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,680 Speaker 3: and he said if the coin lands at head, go 730 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 3: ahead and make the change. If it lands on tails, 731 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,800 Speaker 3: stick with the status quill. And he got back to 732 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,439 Speaker 3: them two weeks later and six months later. The first 733 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 3: thing he found is that those people who got heads, 734 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,720 Speaker 3: which means make a change, they were twenty five percent 735 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,400 Speaker 3: more likely to make a change. So something simple as 736 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,439 Speaker 3: a coin flipped induced people to go ahead and make 737 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 3: the change. And the second most important thing he found 738 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 3: that on average, over these thousands and thousands of individuals, 739 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 3: those that made the change were in fact happier in 740 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,799 Speaker 3: their life. And so I think there's two reasons why 741 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,320 Speaker 3: that is. One is, if you're thinking about a change, 742 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 3: there's probably a reason to it, meaning you're probably considering 743 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,960 Speaker 3: it because something is not satisfactory or not optimal, and 744 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 3: so a change is probably needed. It doesn't mean what 745 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 3: kind of change, but a change is probably needed. And 746 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 3: the second reason is you're making a change inducing variety 747 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:06,439 Speaker 3: means this habituation means more learning, aorll things that tend 748 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 3: to increase people's well being tell. 749 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: Us about creativity and dis habituation. 750 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 3: As I mentioned, there's individual differences in how fast people habituate, 751 00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 3: and it turns out that people who habituate slower on 752 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 3: average tend to be more creative. So there's a study 753 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 3: that was conducted where it was shown that people who 754 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,040 Speaker 3: are creative, and specifically these are people who either had 755 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,399 Speaker 3: wrote a book or have a patent under their name, 756 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 3: or had an exhibition of art, they tended to habituate slower. 757 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 3: And the way that they measured it they actually just 758 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,640 Speaker 3: had like a sound. So when you hear a sound 759 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,960 Speaker 3: over and over and over, you get your body response 760 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 3: to it less, and you can measure that by looking 761 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 3: at for examples kings conducts response and so that is 762 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 3: a finding. The question is why why does slow habituation 763 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 3: is why is that related to creativity? And perhaps one 764 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 3: reason is that if you habituate slower to the things 765 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 3: around you, they you're perhaps processing them for a longer 766 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 3: amount of time. So these random pieces of information visuals, sounds, 767 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 3: they stay in your mind for longer, and so these 768 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 3: different pieces of information that usually don't come together are 769 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,080 Speaker 3: more likely to kind of collide, right to collide in 770 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,319 Speaker 3: your brain, to create connections because they are in your 771 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 3: head in a sort of like soup, in a sort 772 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,280 Speaker 3: of mix. And we know that often the most creative 773 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 3: ideas come from unconventional connections. So you can take a 774 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 3: piece of information that's so super like mundane in one domain, 775 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,800 Speaker 3: and another piece of information super mundane in another domain. 776 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 3: You put them together and suddenly you have this creative solution. 777 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,960 Speaker 3: You see that a lot in technology, where people take 778 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 3: rules from biology and they use them in the you know, 779 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,280 Speaker 3: to create some kind of technology. So these these combinations, 780 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,439 Speaker 3: and that's probably one of the reasons. And it could, 781 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 3: I mean, it could be quite confusing to have all 782 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,640 Speaker 3: these pieces of information in your mind, right. It can 783 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 3: be something that can cause a difficulty to focus and concentrate, 784 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 3: but it also enhances creativity. And so how can we 785 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:23,399 Speaker 3: actually use that knowledge to be more creative ourselves. Well, 786 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 3: there's a study showing that one way to do that 787 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:32,000 Speaker 3: is to induce this habituation by going and changing your environment. 788 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 3: So turns out that if you are sitting in your 789 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 3: office and you are just you know, thinking about a problem, 790 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 3: but then you go out and you take a little 791 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 3: walk and then you come back, or vice versa. If 792 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 3: you're thinking about a problem while you're walking and then 793 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 3: you're coming back to the office, any kind of change 794 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 3: or even you're in the office and you're going to 795 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,800 Speaker 3: sit in a cafe or you're going to your kitchen. 796 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 3: Turns out that any change in your environment enhances creative 797 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:05,399 Speaker 3: ideas significantly, so although it only does that for about 798 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 3: six minutes. So if you're changing your environment, then that 799 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 3: will create disabituation and that will enhance creativity for about 800 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,720 Speaker 3: six minutes. After that, you're kind of like habituation again 801 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 3: to your environment. So that is one way to enhance 802 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:28,280 Speaker 3: creativity by just changing the environment and therefore making your 803 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 3: brain more likely to be attentive to all this bits 804 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 3: of information that are around you. 805 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,359 Speaker 1: So that was my interview with Tolly Sherratt about her 806 00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,200 Speaker 1: new book co author with Cast Sunstein, called Look Again, 807 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 1: which is all about how we habituate to things and 808 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: how we can try to dishabituate. And I just want 809 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 1: to add a couple of thoughts. So the first one is, 810 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 1: perhaps because I'm in Silicon Valley, I see lots of 811 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: startup companies doing their things, and I compare these to 812 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: the big established companies, and the big companies have a 813 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: difficult time innovating because they're too stuck in their methods 814 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 1: and hypotheses and ways of doing things and So what 815 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,960 Speaker 1: the clever big companies do is they give birth to 816 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,680 Speaker 1: spin offs. And these spin offs are young and nimble, 817 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,359 Speaker 1: and this, of course is analogous to what humans do. 818 00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 1: Humans drop into the world full of vim and vigor 819 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: and nimbleness, just like a young startup. But after a 820 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: while they accrue these giant rule books, these ways of 821 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 1: doing things. Humans get stuck in their methods and hypotheses 822 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,040 Speaker 1: and ways of doing things, and so what they do 823 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: is they spawn babies to go out and take on 824 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,960 Speaker 1: the next generation. Babies have these clean minds that are 825 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: not already stuck in habit The magic of children is 826 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,520 Speaker 1: that they are not as totally habituated as we are, 827 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: so they can see things in a fresh light. Everything 828 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,080 Speaker 1: is new to them, and so they notice things. 829 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:07,759 Speaker 2: That we have become blind to. 830 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: And in this way, our daily endeavor to disabituate is 831 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:14,560 Speaker 1: to become like. 832 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:15,560 Speaker 2: A child again. 833 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: And the second thing I want to mention is that 834 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:24,440 Speaker 1: I think good science is often about disabituation. Not always, 835 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: but many of the biggest moves in science happen from saying, Okay, 836 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: I grew up with this textbook, and the textbook has 837 00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 1: all the answers, and yet I can't escape the feeling 838 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,840 Speaker 1: that there may be a different way to look at 839 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,959 Speaker 1: this whole thing. In other words, we've all gotten used 840 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: to a particular story, but there may be a more 841 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,960 Speaker 1: powerful one available. So good scientists are always looking to 842 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: shake off assumptions. In my postdoctoral fellowship, I got to 843 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,360 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with Francis Krik, who was 844 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: the co discoverer of the structure of DNA, and what 845 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,200 Speaker 1: I learned from him is that he just assumed that 846 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: about a quarter of the scientific literature he was reading 847 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: was wrong, either because of mistakes or fraud or misinterpretation 848 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. He just assumed that when the community of 849 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: scientists believe in something, it might be true, but it 850 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,640 Speaker 1: might not. That was a very powerful lens through which 851 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,160 Speaker 1: to view the world, because it was essentially a constant 852 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:32,680 Speaker 1: lens of dishabituation, of allowing everything to be questioned, of 853 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,080 Speaker 1: encouraging everything to be questioned. 854 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 2: That is what's needed to do good. 855 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:43,120 Speaker 1: Science, and presumably that's what's needed to live a maximally 856 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: enjoyable life, because one of the most important things the 857 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: brain does is to seek novelty, finding new angles on things. 858 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,319 Speaker 1: This is what builds new roadways in your brain. So 859 00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: that sounds easy, but we always have to fight habitua, 860 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:06,160 Speaker 1: growing used to things. Habituation constantly makes us forget the 861 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: colors of the world that we're in. But it just 862 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:13,080 Speaker 1: takes attention to reverse this. It's one of the simplest 863 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: things you can do to better enjoy your daily life, 864 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,240 Speaker 1: and it's one of the most important things for brain health. 865 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 1: And one of the things we learned today is that 866 00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,440 Speaker 1: you can seek novelty, not by flying across the globe 867 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,040 Speaker 1: and jumping out of planes and fighting bulls, but simply 868 00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,720 Speaker 1: by paying fresh attention to the things around you, simply 869 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 1: by looking again. 870 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,200 Speaker 2: Go to Eagleman dot com. 871 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,720 Speaker 1: Slash podcast for more information and to find further reading. 872 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,440 Speaker 1: Send me an email at podcast at egleman dot com 873 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,759 Speaker 1: with questions or discussion, and check out and subscribe to 874 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each episode and 875 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,960 Speaker 1: to leave comments until next time. I'm David Eagleman, and 876 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,879 Speaker 1: this is Inner Cosmos.