WEBVTT - Ep62 "Is it possible to rehumanize the enemy?" 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:09.320 Why does the brain so easily form in groups and 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.640 therefore out groups, And what differences do we see in 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.200 the brain's circuitry when it thinks about the members of 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.400 one group or the other? Does dehumanization have a basis 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:25.000 in the brain, and are there any ways to rehumanize 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.640 And in this context of human behavior, what do heroes 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:35.559 look like? Welcome to Inner Cosmos with me David Eagleman. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.480 I'm a neuroscientist and an author, and in these episodes 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.560 we launch from the brain to understand why and how 0:00:43.960 --> 0:00:58.560 our lives look the way they do. Today's episode is 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:03.600 about conflict and in groups and outgroups and dehumanization, and 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:05.880 I want to take this on in a very human 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:09.400 way by talking with two people who I have come 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:13.200 to admire greatly because they are living deep in the 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:18.319 middle of terrible conflict and they find themselves on opposite sides, 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.560 but they're striving to do something rare, and we're going 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:23.360 to meet them. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.520 In just a moment. The first I want to set 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:26.360 the context. 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:31.080 The difficulty that we always see with human societies is 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.880 that we are all strapped to our most basic neural 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:39.600 drives like anger and fear and suspicion, and an appetite 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:40.479 for revenge. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:42.440 And the question that I want. 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.399 To wrestle with today is whether there's a pathway to 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.880 rising above that, Is there a higher level of rationality 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.360 by which we could operate? Are there roads to get 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.640 ourselves out of the networks in our brains that care 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:02.800 only about short term things and somehow allow the long 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:06.919 term thinking networks in our brains to gain a foothold, 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.000 because I suspect that humans getting better at this is 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:16.480 probably our only meaningful solution to all the conflicts that 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.720 constantly convulse our world. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.040 Now, if you've been listening. 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.080 To this podcast for a while, you know that I 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:29.320 speak often about in groups and outgroups. Specifically, brains seem 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:34.400 to be highly predisposed to form these. We attach to 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:39.560 particular groups, whether by accident of birth, or by political momentum, 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.040 or just from the preferences of our circle of friends 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:49.840 or mentors or neighbors or parents or whatever. Now, neuroscience 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:54.799 works to understand how individual brains work, but what we 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:59.720 summarize as the field of social neuroscience works to understand 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.200 what happens when you get a bunch of brains interacting, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:06.880 and things are always more complex than you would predict 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.519 from looking at single brains, in part because of issues 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:15.519 that emerge, like the spontaneous formation of in groups and outgroups, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.760 and by the way we find this among other species 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:22.600 as well. For example, some of my colleagues study this 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:26.760 kind of fighting in monkey troops. What you'll find is 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.119 that two different troops of monkeys will hate each other 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:33.920 and fight viciously, sometimes to the death. But every once 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:37.040 in a while a monkey will get excluded from his 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.960 troop and he'll end up switching sides and he'll get 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.840 accepted in by the other troop, and then he'll fight 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.880 just as hard on the other side. So the details 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.640 of in groups and out groups are malleable. But what 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.880 we find is that primates like us love fighting and 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.240 dying for whichever side we're on, And it's easy enough 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.560 to see this in ourselves, whether with politics or sports 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:04.840 teams or religions. We tend to have the side that 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:08.480 we're on and then the wrong side or sides, and 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.119 for a lot of people it gives meaning to their 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.960 lives to fight for their side. And this is all 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:19.360 possible because of the very limited borders of our internal models, 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:24.040 which allows each of us to so strongly believe in 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:30.000 our truths. So behavior becomes complex when you get thousands 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.800 of humans in the same place, or hundreds of thousands, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.520 or millions. And different research groups, including my lab, have 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:42.320 done studies on how we perceive pain in another person, 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.280 say a member of your in group versus a member 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:51.160 of your outgroup. Collectively, we've studied this across religion, race, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.400 country membership, even things like which sports team you root for. 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.720 I'm going to link a number of those studies in 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.039 the show notes, but for now, the b line is 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.000 that your brain does not care about everyone equally, but 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:10.760 instead cares much more about those people whom you consider 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.919 part of your in group. If you see pain in 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.400 another person, your brain cares a lot more. It has 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.400 a much bigger reaction if it is a member of 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.280 your in group, and what this translates to is really 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.279 quite shocking. A study from my colleagues, Assana Harris and 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.680 Susan Fisk at Princeton looked at the issue of how 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:35.200 our brains understand about other people. So if you put 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.880 people into the brain scanner and you show them photographs 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.560 of other people, there's a region of the brain that 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.520 becomes very active, called the medial prefrontal cortex. This is 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:49.720 an area involved in social cognition. It comes online when 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.640 you're dealing with another person as opposed to an object 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.200 like your phone or laptop or car that. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:57.440 Does not activate this region. 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.760 So the medial prefrontal cortex is specific to thinking about 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:02.719 other people. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:04.960 Now, what happens when I. 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:08.440 Show you pictures of groups of people that maybe you 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.279 don't like very much, maybe you envy them or you 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:15.280 pity them, Well, you still get medial prefrontal cortex activation. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:18.800 You still see them as humans. But if I go 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.240 even further out on the spectrum to extreme out groups, 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:28.679 that region decreases in its activation to the point where 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.560 it can't even be measured anymore. And what that means 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.800 is that people can look at another human being, but 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.680 it's not like they're viewing another human. Instead, they're viewing 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.760 an object. And by the way, viewing these photos of 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.719 extreme outgroups also activates other brain areas like the insulin, 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:52.560 the amygdala, which is consistent with disgust. And this kind 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:58.360 of dehumanization is the standard in warfare because of the 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.080 pain of what some group has done unto you, and 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:06.200 perhaps because of ubiquitous propaganda, you lose the ability to 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:10.920 see members of that group as other humans. Your medial 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:15.040 profneral cortex just doesn't come online, and the areas involved 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:18.720 in disgust do. And we onays see this in warfare 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.200 from the descriptions that get used for the enemy. They're 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:27.200 described as viruses or cockroaches or rats or whatever, but 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.400 they're not people anymore, and that's why they can be 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.520 slaughtered with rifles or bombs. You're just taking care of 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:39.360 a cleaning problem with the brain areas involved in humanization 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.040 out of the equation your moral decision making about other people, 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.960 the people in your outgroup, it just doesn't have the 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:53.280 normal pro social mechanisms steering your behavior. So it's not 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.640 just that we talk about dehumanization from the point of 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.440 view of politics or psychology. 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.720 We can understand it from the point of view of 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.160 the brain. Now, the reason this is so tragic that 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.120 human brains do this is because when you look at 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.400 people of whatever group, you find that everyone loves their 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.240 families and wants to laugh, It wants to live a 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:15.840 good life. 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:19.160 It presumably goes without saying that all people are equipped 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.360 with the same biology on the inside. What pits people 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:28.400 against one another are local societal issues, and then they 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:33.040 lose the ability to see one another as humans. Now, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.280 one way to see how local these issues are is 0:08:36.320 --> 0:08:39.480 to flip open any history book and ask yourself whether 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.080 you would have gotten all worked up over the conflicts 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.360 of previous societies. Does it seem worth it to you 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.760 to fight and die over deities that no one even 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:55.400 remembers anymore, or whether you think Xerxes should or shouldn't 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.360 be king, Would it be worth it to lose all 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.240 your children over the position of a border between two 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.360 countries that don't even exist anymore, Or just take as 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.239 an example that the history of Europe has been defined 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.840 by the bloody wars between Catholics and Protestants. Now, for 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.199 the majority of the world, which is neither Catholic nor Protestant, 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:22.720 this seems very difficult to understand why, because Catholics and 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.360 Protestants seem really similar, They have the same deity, They 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:29.800 just have minor differences in how they perform rituals. But 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.680 that was enough to turn the soil red all over 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.280 Europe for literally hundreds of years. So you look back 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.840 at these historical conflicts where thousands or millions of people died, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:46.880 and we find ourselves hard pressed to feel like, yeah, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.760 that was totally worth it for people to give up 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:54.360 their one shot at existence and happiness. With a little 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.840 bit of historical distance, it seems tragic that a person 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:01.559 gave up a life with his family as parents, his 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:05.840 children because he was so suffused in the moment with 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:09.680 the notion that he was right and the other group 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:14.040 was wrong. Now, I'm not making light of these kind 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.960 of decisions, because if we were there, we would presumably 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:22.439 understand and be fueled by these local reasons, like your 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.439 older brother died from being beaten to death by soldiers 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.040 on the other side, or your parents were murdered by 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:33.040 the other side, and we can easily understand the way 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:37.960 that boiling blood can take over your mental landscape and 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.760 define your life trajectory from that moment. I find that 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.400 very easy to understand. I get those feelings. And by 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.360 the way, let's just note that essentially every action movie 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.840 in our diet uses revenge as the plot engine because 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.960 it's so easy for us all to resonate with that. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.920 So it's not to say that people didn't feel that 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.800 they had good reasons to fight to their mutual deaths, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:10.720 but it's critical to assess what turns things around? What 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:15.160 is required for an entirely different level. 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:16.800 Of societal maturation. 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.560 Is it possible for individuals in a society to somehow 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:28.600 override this fundamental instinct for vengeance and to instead bridge 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:34.240 differences and rebuild a new level of society, a society 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:39.120 where a generation later the wounds start healing, and a 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.280 generation after that the scars start fading, and at some 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:48.240 point the anger and the hatred can't even be revivified. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.720 What is required for that kind of bridge building to begin? 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:58.240 And what kind of people begin this process by reaching 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.760 their arms precariously across the chasm? 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:04.439 And this question I've been wondering about. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:09.280 Led me recently to two extraordinary people who embody this 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:14.079 longer term thinking. One is Israeli, the other is Palestinian. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:19.280 They both have extraordinary pain in their lives and they 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:24.319 are fighting, but they are fighting together for the next level, 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:29.400 for the level of recognizing the common humanity of each other. 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.959 They are coming at the situation with pain and love 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.200 and hope and a mission. They are fighting for the 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:43.160 future of the region instead of the past. Here are 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:53.400 Maoziinone and Aziz Abusera. So please tell us about your 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.760 personal stories and how you got to now. 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.640 A mesuelede and fody and years old. I live my 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.880 life in Israel, and I have my life before Tobel 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.840 seventh and after October seventh, I lost both my parents 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.080 and many many of my childhood friends, the parents, the 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:17.319 children that were killed okay up to Gaza. And since 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.000 then I began from a tour regime entrepreneur into a 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:28.000 piecing entrepreneur. I've been dialect dialogue in partnering, creating and 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:34.120 strengthening a new and old friendship with Palastinians from Gaza, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.000 from Israel, from the West, back with Israelis from the 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:44.640 dispoa And like I'm saying now, which is completely the 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.760 opposite of what I said in the first few weeks, 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.600 in the first three few weeks after October seventh, I 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.840 said that nothing, nothing can prepare you for losing both 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.280 your parents, so many of your childhood friends. Nothing can 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.360 prepare you doing what to say and out what after 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:07.680 such an enormous loss and a tragedy. But then I 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.880 realized that all my life was just a preparation. I 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.440 was prepared. I was prepared for tobe the seven, and 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:21.160 sadly and ironically, I was prepared mostly by my parents. 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:25.440 My parents prepared me to the moment of the death, 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:31.600 and I've been going through its spiritual and mind transformation 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.800 in the last it's nearly eight months, and as reason, 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:38.560 I began partners and very close friends. It's a very 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.120 powerful at least in my eye. And I was in 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:45.760 for us, for us, very powerful relationship and friendship. And 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.000 I I've been learning three lessons that hopefully we'll have 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.480 time that we I will be able to share the 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.640 three of them and hear it today. And also thank 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:59.760 you David for evingus. You cannot believe how important our empowering, 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:04.880 meaningful and supportive it is for us to be here 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.440 with you. I learned about hope, I learned about the future, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:13.920 and I learned the importance of forgiveness. So that's on 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.720 a Natchell about myself and as ease. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:22.560 I've heard my host tell this story multiple times and 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:27.000 it's always as powerful to hear it again. So I'm 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.320 from Jerusalem and Palestinian. I grew up in Jerusalem and 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.480 I lost my brother who was killed when I was 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:39.040 ten years old and he was nineteen years old. He 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:43.200 was arrested and suspicion of throwing rocks, and he was 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:46.800 beaten up by soldiers until he would confessed, which resulted 0:15:46.840 --> 0:15:51.000 in his death after he was right after he was released. 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.280 And so I, unlike my Os, I wasn't ready. I 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:59.240 was ten years old. I wasn't prepared, and I didn't 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.960 know I even had a choice other than if somebody 0:16:03.080 --> 0:16:06.320 kills your brother, you go after them. If somebody hurts 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.960 your family, you go after them. And for the next 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.680 eight years that was my life. I was very angry, 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.800 I was very bitter, and all I saw it was revenge. 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.640 It almost felt like if somebody punches you in the face, 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:25.240 your first reaction is to punch back. And mine unlike Moos, 0:16:25.280 --> 0:16:28.160 which in a couple of weeks, he was able to 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.080 before even a couple of weeks, within a few days, 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:34.440 he was able to speak about peace and to speak 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:37.840 about you know when we talk together after and he said, 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.920 I'm still I'm crying for kids in Gaza, like I 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.840 am crying for my parents right now, saying I don't 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.040 want people to revenge. I didn't have it in me 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.240 for eight years to come anywhere close to that. And 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:55.600 so I'm always amazed by Maos's bravery and ability to 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.320 do that. But yeah, eight years after, I went to 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:01.920 study Hebrew in an open not by choice, but because 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.440 if you live in Jerusom don't speak Hebrew, you really 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:08.160 can't get to work. You can study, you can do anything. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.760 And I was eighteen, and in that classroom I first 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:17.120 met Israelis and Jews who were not soldiers. And as 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.159 nice as a soldier could be, he can tell me 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.160 to pass or not, they're carrying a gun. You can't 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.600 really have a dialogue with a soldier. And in that 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:32.040 classroom I had my first meaningful conversations with people you know, 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.240 see on the other side. And in those conversations, I 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:40.720 realized that I do have a choice, that actually the 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.280 person who killed my brother was not just killing my brother. 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.919 It was controlling my life for the last eight years. 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.120 And I've let him make the choices for me. Every 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:52.960 time I chose to be angry, every time I chose 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:56.680 to hate, every time I chose revenge because of him, 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:59.600 and I let that anger make me want to do 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:04.280 something bad. I was being his slave. I was being 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.960 following his choices, not mine, and realizing that I wanted 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:14.760 to free myself and make my own choices and go 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.280 on a path that is stay is different, that brings 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.840 down those barriers that divide us, the barriers of hate, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.320 the barriers of anger, the barriers of fear, the barriers 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:29.040 of you know, all those things, and to reach out 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:31.879 to people on the other side and realizing we're not 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:35.320 really unopposite sides, that we can be on the same 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.280 side together. And that's how I see my relationship with Mouths. 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.440 Were not an Israeli and a Palestinian. Yes we are, 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.480 but we're not really an Israelian a Palestinian in a 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.960 nationalist term. We are both together working for the same 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:51.240 vision and the same mission. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:06.200 Why do you suppose it's so rare what you guys 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.679 are doing? And I hope this picts up momentum, this 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.440 bridge building, but at the moment, it's not common. 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:14.800 Why do you think that is? 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.760 I think it's more common than the media or the public. 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:24.600 Is a way of especially the public and the discourse, 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:29.520 the international discourse in Palestin, in Israel, between the rivers 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:34.159 to the sea, there are so many organizations an individual 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.840 that walking on the ground to create a shared future. 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:42.080 As this was a co chairman of the Family Circle, 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.200 a group of believed families from both sides in Soneties 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:51.600 and Plastidia. And there is the competitor for peaces, people 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:56.760 who decided to choose a different way, not a violence resisted, 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.840 but a non violence resistance. And there is the Women 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.240 of the Sun and Women Watch Peace is Read in 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:09.000 Palestinian women movements. And we have standing together a Jewish 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:15.200 arable organization when with Israel that is now protecting humanitarian 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:19.439 aid trucks that are going to Gaza. So on the 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.440 ground there are so many. But and this is why 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:27.320 we're so thankful to your David and to do the 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:32.320 TED organizers for inviting us to open the TED twenty 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.800 twenty four. Because we must have not just our voices 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.800 to be heard and to be amplified and using our 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:44.480 easier votes, we must be on the table where the 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.919 decisions are being made because we have been overlooked. The 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:53.280 civil society between the rivel to the to the sea 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:57.520 has been overlooked for so many years, too many years, 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.320 and we need to be there the decision are being 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.760 made in order to make this the last one. It's 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.880 as simple as that. So this is the journey. It's 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.680 not just the two of us, our coalition. Our partners 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:18.520 decided to take and to use our thorough our pain, 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.720 our orgony to dialogue, to partner for a better future. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.880 I agree. I think there's many of us. We might 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.040 not be necessarily the majority right now, but that's because 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.639 right now people are hurt and people are in pain, 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.359 and not everybody. When people are afraid, and when people 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.240 are in pain and when people are suffering, it's hard 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:45.040 for us, you know, as a humans, to make to 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.119 make rational decisions. That's not only in our case. I 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.920 think that's everywhere in the world. People can cannot think 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:57.160 rationally in these times. And that's why our voices are 0:21:57.200 --> 0:22:01.000 important this time, me Mas and many others like us 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.439 who are really trying hard. But I'll just agree with 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.760 MOUs it's not easy to get our voices across, whether 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.480 it's in the media, and so we need all the 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:16.800 help we can to amplify voices like ours. We need 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.159 all the help we can to let the world know 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.840 that we exist, and to let world leaders know we exist, 0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.119 and to make sure, like Moos said earlier, we are 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:32.760 not sidelined. We look every peace agreement and the negotiations 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:35.679 that have happened beween Israelis and Palestinians so far with 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:40.440 the US, with Europe, peacemakers like us were not part 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.640 of it, and I think that's one of the reasons 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:48.040 things havn't worked out well so far. The stuff we 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:51.040 know about how to build relationships, the stuff we live, 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:55.200 and we know each other way better than anybody else 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:57.720 in this country know each other. We spend so much 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.840 time together. We talk, we don't always agree, we work 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:04.800 through disagreements. We know how to talk through tough communication stuff. 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:06.960 You know, we were in an event was a nine 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.800 and we've had not the two of us, but the 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.400 group of Palestinians of Israelis at disagreements, had hard moments 0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:16.320 that or even tears, and that's fine. But we know 0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:19.359 how to work through it, and our politicians don't know 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.199 how to work through it. And so if you know, 0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:25.359 I don't want to sound a little too arrogant, but 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.159 if the experts on this are not invited to the 0:23:28.200 --> 0:23:32.040 table when these conversations are happening, we shouldn't be surprised 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:34.439 that we are where we are today. 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:37.120 You guys are, of course correct that there are other 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.399 groups on the ground and that we don't hear about 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.080 them very much. One of the other organizations that we 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:46.800 met at TED this year was an Israeli Palestinian choir 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:48.439 of children who sing together. 0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:50.760 That was extremely moving. 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:53.720 But why do you suppose that so many people are 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:58.760 interested in widening the gap as opposed to bridging the divide. 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.320 I can understand, and in the sense that, for example, 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.960 as he's with your story about the anger, or my 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:08.760 oles with your story, so many people feel an anger 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.399 that they can never let go. So what can we 0:24:11.480 --> 0:24:15.520 do as a society to bring people from the widening 0:24:15.560 --> 0:24:19.480 divide camp over towards the bridging camp. 0:24:20.080 --> 0:24:22.880 I think I understand people anger. We have to relate 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:27.080 to people, not to attack them. I you know, somebody 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:29.959 asked me today, a journalist, how do I call somebody 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.480 in Gaza now and tell them about peace? And I said, 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:35.040 if I call someone in Gaza right now, I don't 0:24:35.080 --> 0:24:38.880 start lecturing them about peace. If I do that, I'm 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:41.879 out of touch. I am, I'm being ridiculous If I 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.720 do that. The first thing is starts with listening to 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:49.000 people paint, listening to where they're coming from, crying with them, 0:24:49.200 --> 0:24:52.159 feeling what they feel. That's very If we not with 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:55.600 people in their hard moments, then I'm gonna listen to us. 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:58.320 So that's that's I think a major part. You know, 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:00.800 one of the stories that was most touching to me. 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:04.440 I always like to share is this friend of mine 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:07.560 named antone goodman who works for Rabbis for human rights, 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:11.919 and right after October seventh, where he had friends being killed, 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:15.720 and he would go to the funerals and he will 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:19.119 leave the funerals and drive to the West Bank where 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:23.760 Palestinians he knew there were being attacked by settlers and 0:25:23.840 --> 0:25:27.000 he would bring them whatever they need because they weren't 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:29.800 able to buy supplies. They didn't have food, they didn't 0:25:29.840 --> 0:25:33.119 have water, and they were in terrible situation. He was 0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:36.200 leaving a funeral of one of his friends and driving 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:39.080 into the West Bank and being with these people. And 0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:42.560 that's how you really beat that hate and that fear, 0:25:42.600 --> 0:25:46.120 and that you know, that divide by being there, by 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:48.920 being with people, by showing that you care. You mentioned 0:25:49.440 --> 0:25:53.159 I always mentioned earlier, standing together and being out in 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:56.640 the streets. You know, peacemaking isn't just in a room, 0:25:56.840 --> 0:25:59.720 isn't just in a comfort. You're out with people in 0:25:59.800 --> 0:26:02.760 the streets, You're out with them, seeing where the need 0:26:02.920 --> 0:26:06.280 is and saying we will do action together, when when 0:26:06.280 --> 0:26:09.680