Speaker 1: Why does the brain so easily form in groups and
Speaker 1: therefore out groups, And what differences do we see in
Speaker 1: the brain's circuitry when it thinks about the members of
Speaker 1: one group or the other? Does dehumanization have a basis
Speaker 1: in the brain, and are there any ways to rehumanize
Speaker 1: And in this context of human behavior, what do heroes
Speaker 1: look like? Welcome to Inner Cosmos with me David Eagleman.
Speaker 1: I'm a neuroscientist and an author, and in these episodes
Speaker 1: we launch from the brain to understand why and how
Speaker 1: our lives look the way they do. Today's episode is
Speaker 1: about conflict and in groups and outgroups and dehumanization, and
Speaker 1: I want to take this on in a very human
Speaker 1: way by talking with two people who I have come
Speaker 1: to admire greatly because they are living deep in the
Speaker 1: middle of terrible conflict and they find themselves on opposite sides,
Speaker 1: but they're striving to do something rare, and we're going
Speaker 1: to meet them.
Speaker 2: In just a moment. The first I want to set
Speaker 2: the context.
Speaker 1: The difficulty that we always see with human societies is
Speaker 1: that we are all strapped to our most basic neural
Speaker 1: drives like anger and fear and suspicion, and an appetite
Speaker 1: for revenge.
Speaker 2: And the question that I want.
Speaker 1: To wrestle with today is whether there's a pathway to
Speaker 1: rising above that, Is there a higher level of rationality
Speaker 1: by which we could operate? Are there roads to get
Speaker 1: ourselves out of the networks in our brains that care
Speaker 1: only about short term things and somehow allow the long
Speaker 1: term thinking networks in our brains to gain a foothold,
Speaker 1: because I suspect that humans getting better at this is
Speaker 1: probably our only meaningful solution to all the conflicts that
Speaker 1: constantly convulse our world.
Speaker 2: Now, if you've been listening.
Speaker 1: To this podcast for a while, you know that I
Speaker 1: speak often about in groups and outgroups. Specifically, brains seem
Speaker 1: to be highly predisposed to form these. We attach to
Speaker 1: particular groups, whether by accident of birth, or by political momentum,
Speaker 1: or just from the preferences of our circle of friends
Speaker 1: or mentors or neighbors or parents or whatever. Now, neuroscience
Speaker 1: works to understand how individual brains work, but what we
Speaker 1: summarize as the field of social neuroscience works to understand
Speaker 1: what happens when you get a bunch of brains interacting,
Speaker 1: and things are always more complex than you would predict
Speaker 1: from looking at single brains, in part because of issues
Speaker 1: that emerge, like the spontaneous formation of in groups and outgroups,
Speaker 1: and by the way we find this among other species
Speaker 1: as well. For example, some of my colleagues study this
Speaker 1: kind of fighting in monkey troops. What you'll find is
Speaker 1: that two different troops of monkeys will hate each other
Speaker 1: and fight viciously, sometimes to the death. But every once
Speaker 1: in a while a monkey will get excluded from his
Speaker 1: troop and he'll end up switching sides and he'll get
Speaker 1: accepted in by the other troop, and then he'll fight
Speaker 1: just as hard on the other side. So the details
Speaker 1: of in groups and out groups are malleable. But what
Speaker 1: we find is that primates like us love fighting and
Speaker 1: dying for whichever side we're on, And it's easy enough
Speaker 1: to see this in ourselves, whether with politics or sports
Speaker 1: teams or religions. We tend to have the side that
Speaker 1: we're on and then the wrong side or sides, and
Speaker 1: for a lot of people it gives meaning to their
Speaker 1: lives to fight for their side. And this is all
Speaker 1: possible because of the very limited borders of our internal models,
Speaker 1: which allows each of us to so strongly believe in
Speaker 1: our truths. So behavior becomes complex when you get thousands
Speaker 1: of humans in the same place, or hundreds of thousands,
Speaker 1: or millions. And different research groups, including my lab, have
Speaker 1: done studies on how we perceive pain in another person,
Speaker 1: say a member of your in group versus a member
Speaker 1: of your outgroup. Collectively, we've studied this across religion, race,
Speaker 1: country membership, even things like which sports team you root for.
Speaker 1: I'm going to link a number of those studies in
Speaker 1: the show notes, but for now, the b line is
Speaker 1: that your brain does not care about everyone equally, but
Speaker 1: instead cares much more about those people whom you consider
Speaker 1: part of your in group. If you see pain in
Speaker 1: another person, your brain cares a lot more. It has
Speaker 1: a much bigger reaction if it is a member of
Speaker 1: your in group, and what this translates to is really
Speaker 1: quite shocking. A study from my colleagues, Assana Harris and
Speaker 1: Susan Fisk at Princeton looked at the issue of how
Speaker 1: our brains understand about other people. So if you put
Speaker 1: people into the brain scanner and you show them photographs
Speaker 1: of other people, there's a region of the brain that
Speaker 1: becomes very active, called the medial prefrontal cortex. This is
Speaker 1: an area involved in social cognition. It comes online when
Speaker 1: you're dealing with another person as opposed to an object
Speaker 1: like your phone or laptop or car that.
Speaker 2: Does not activate this region.
Speaker 1: So the medial prefrontal cortex is specific to thinking about
Speaker 1: other people.
Speaker 2: Now, what happens when I.
Speaker 1: Show you pictures of groups of people that maybe you
Speaker 1: don't like very much, maybe you envy them or you
Speaker 1: pity them, Well, you still get medial prefrontal cortex activation.
Speaker 1: You still see them as humans. But if I go
Speaker 1: even further out on the spectrum to extreme out groups,
Speaker 1: that region decreases in its activation to the point where
Speaker 1: it can't even be measured anymore. And what that means
Speaker 1: is that people can look at another human being, but
Speaker 1: it's not like they're viewing another human. Instead, they're viewing
Speaker 1: an object. And by the way, viewing these photos of
Speaker 1: extreme outgroups also activates other brain areas like the insulin,
Speaker 1: the amygdala, which is consistent with disgust. And this kind
Speaker 1: of dehumanization is the standard in warfare because of the
Speaker 1: pain of what some group has done unto you, and
Speaker 1: perhaps because of ubiquitous propaganda, you lose the ability to
Speaker 1: see members of that group as other humans. Your medial
Speaker 1: profneral cortex just doesn't come online, and the areas involved
Speaker 1: in disgust do. And we onays see this in warfare
Speaker 1: from the descriptions that get used for the enemy. They're
Speaker 1: described as viruses or cockroaches or rats or whatever, but
Speaker 1: they're not people anymore, and that's why they can be
Speaker 1: slaughtered with rifles or bombs. You're just taking care of
Speaker 1: a cleaning problem with the brain areas involved in humanization
Speaker 1: out of the equation your moral decision making about other people,
Speaker 1: the people in your outgroup, it just doesn't have the
Speaker 1: normal pro social mechanisms steering your behavior. So it's not
Speaker 1: just that we talk about dehumanization from the point of
Speaker 1: view of politics or psychology.
Speaker 2: We can understand it from the point of view of
Speaker 2: the brain. Now, the reason this is so tragic that
Speaker 2: human brains do this is because when you look at
Speaker 2: people of whatever group, you find that everyone loves their
Speaker 2: families and wants to laugh, It wants to live a
Speaker 2: good life.
Speaker 1: It presumably goes without saying that all people are equipped
Speaker 1: with the same biology on the inside. What pits people
Speaker 1: against one another are local societal issues, and then they
Speaker 1: lose the ability to see one another as humans. Now,
Speaker 1: one way to see how local these issues are is
Speaker 1: to flip open any history book and ask yourself whether
Speaker 1: you would have gotten all worked up over the conflicts
Speaker 1: of previous societies. Does it seem worth it to you
Speaker 1: to fight and die over deities that no one even
Speaker 1: remembers anymore, or whether you think Xerxes should or shouldn't
Speaker 1: be king, Would it be worth it to lose all
Speaker 1: your children over the position of a border between two
Speaker 1: countries that don't even exist anymore, Or just take as
Speaker 1: an example that the history of Europe has been defined
Speaker 1: by the bloody wars between Catholics and Protestants. Now, for
Speaker 1: the majority of the world, which is neither Catholic nor Protestant,
Speaker 1: this seems very difficult to understand why, because Catholics and
Speaker 1: Protestants seem really similar, They have the same deity, They
Speaker 1: just have minor differences in how they perform rituals. But
Speaker 1: that was enough to turn the soil red all over
Speaker 1: Europe for literally hundreds of years. So you look back
Speaker 1: at these historical conflicts where thousands or millions of people died,
Speaker 1: and we find ourselves hard pressed to feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was totally worth it for people to give up
Speaker 1: their one shot at existence and happiness. With a little
Speaker 1: bit of historical distance, it seems tragic that a person
Speaker 1: gave up a life with his family as parents, his
Speaker 1: children because he was so suffused in the moment with
Speaker 1: the notion that he was right and the other group
Speaker 1: was wrong. Now, I'm not making light of these kind
Speaker 1: of decisions, because if we were there, we would presumably
Speaker 1: understand and be fueled by these local reasons, like your
Speaker 1: older brother died from being beaten to death by soldiers
Speaker 1: on the other side, or your parents were murdered by
Speaker 1: the other side, and we can easily understand the way
Speaker 1: that boiling blood can take over your mental landscape and
Speaker 1: define your life trajectory from that moment. I find that
Speaker 1: very easy to understand. I get those feelings. And by
Speaker 1: the way, let's just note that essentially every action movie
Speaker 1: in our diet uses revenge as the plot engine because
Speaker 1: it's so easy for us all to resonate with that.
Speaker 1: So it's not to say that people didn't feel that
Speaker 1: they had good reasons to fight to their mutual deaths,
Speaker 1: but it's critical to assess what turns things around? What
Speaker 1: is required for an entirely different level.
Speaker 2: Of societal maturation.
Speaker 1: Is it possible for individuals in a society to somehow
Speaker 1: override this fundamental instinct for vengeance and to instead bridge
Speaker 1: differences and rebuild a new level of society, a society
Speaker 1: where a generation later the wounds start healing, and a
Speaker 1: generation after that the scars start fading, and at some
Speaker 1: point the anger and the hatred can't even be revivified.
Speaker 2: What is required for that kind of bridge building to begin?
Speaker 1: And what kind of people begin this process by reaching
Speaker 1: their arms precariously across the chasm?
Speaker 2: And this question I've been wondering about.
Speaker 1: Led me recently to two extraordinary people who embody this
Speaker 1: longer term thinking. One is Israeli, the other is Palestinian.
Speaker 1: They both have extraordinary pain in their lives and they
Speaker 1: are fighting, but they are fighting together for the next level,
Speaker 1: for the level of recognizing the common humanity of each other.
Speaker 1: They are coming at the situation with pain and love
Speaker 1: and hope and a mission. They are fighting for the
Speaker 1: future of the region instead of the past. Here are
Speaker 1: Maoziinone and Aziz Abusera. So please tell us about your
Speaker 1: personal stories and how you got to now.
Speaker 3: A mesuelede and fody and years old. I live my
Speaker 3: life in Israel, and I have my life before Tobel
Speaker 3: seventh and after October seventh, I lost both my parents
Speaker 3: and many many of my childhood friends, the parents, the
Speaker 3: children that were killed okay up to Gaza. And since
Speaker 3: then I began from a tour regime entrepreneur into a
Speaker 3: piecing entrepreneur. I've been dialect dialogue in partnering, creating and
Speaker 3: strengthening a new and old friendship with Palastinians from Gaza,
Speaker 3: from Israel, from the West, back with Israelis from the
Speaker 3: dispoa And like I'm saying now, which is completely the
Speaker 3: opposite of what I said in the first few weeks,
Speaker 3: in the first three few weeks after October seventh, I
Speaker 3: said that nothing, nothing can prepare you for losing both
Speaker 3: your parents, so many of your childhood friends. Nothing can
Speaker 3: prepare you doing what to say and out what after
Speaker 3: such an enormous loss and a tragedy. But then I
Speaker 3: realized that all my life was just a preparation. I
Speaker 3: was prepared. I was prepared for tobe the seven, and
Speaker 3: sadly and ironically, I was prepared mostly by my parents.
Speaker 3: My parents prepared me to the moment of the death,
Speaker 3: and I've been going through its spiritual and mind transformation
Speaker 3: in the last it's nearly eight months, and as reason,
Speaker 3: I began partners and very close friends. It's a very
Speaker 3: powerful at least in my eye. And I was in
Speaker 3: for us, for us, very powerful relationship and friendship. And
Speaker 3: I I've been learning three lessons that hopefully we'll have
Speaker 3: time that we I will be able to share the
Speaker 3: three of them and hear it today. And also thank
Speaker 3: you David for evingus. You cannot believe how important our empowering,
Speaker 3: meaningful and supportive it is for us to be here
Speaker 3: with you. I learned about hope, I learned about the future,
Speaker 3: and I learned the importance of forgiveness. So that's on
Speaker 3: a Natchell about myself and as ease.
Speaker 4: I've heard my host tell this story multiple times and
Speaker 4: it's always as powerful to hear it again. So I'm
Speaker 4: from Jerusalem and Palestinian. I grew up in Jerusalem and
Speaker 4: I lost my brother who was killed when I was
Speaker 4: ten years old and he was nineteen years old. He
Speaker 4: was arrested and suspicion of throwing rocks, and he was
Speaker 4: beaten up by soldiers until he would confessed, which resulted
Speaker 4: in his death after he was right after he was released.
Speaker 4: And so I, unlike my Os, I wasn't ready. I
Speaker 4: was ten years old. I wasn't prepared, and I didn't
Speaker 4: know I even had a choice other than if somebody
Speaker 4: kills your brother, you go after them. If somebody hurts
Speaker 4: your family, you go after them. And for the next
Speaker 4: eight years that was my life. I was very angry,
Speaker 4: I was very bitter, and all I saw it was revenge.
Speaker 4: It almost felt like if somebody punches you in the face,
Speaker 4: your first reaction is to punch back. And mine unlike Moos,
Speaker 4: which in a couple of weeks, he was able to
Speaker 4: before even a couple of weeks, within a few days,
Speaker 4: he was able to speak about peace and to speak
Speaker 4: about you know when we talk together after and he said,
Speaker 4: I'm still I'm crying for kids in Gaza, like I
Speaker 4: am crying for my parents right now, saying I don't
Speaker 4: want people to revenge. I didn't have it in me
Speaker 4: for eight years to come anywhere close to that. And
Speaker 4: so I'm always amazed by Maos's bravery and ability to
Speaker 4: do that. But yeah, eight years after, I went to
Speaker 4: study Hebrew in an open not by choice, but because
Speaker 4: if you live in Jerusom don't speak Hebrew, you really
Speaker 4: can't get to work. You can study, you can do anything.
Speaker 4: And I was eighteen, and in that classroom I first
Speaker 4: met Israelis and Jews who were not soldiers. And as
Speaker 4: nice as a soldier could be, he can tell me
Speaker 4: to pass or not, they're carrying a gun. You can't
Speaker 4: really have a dialogue with a soldier. And in that
Speaker 4: classroom I had my first meaningful conversations with people you know,
Speaker 4: see on the other side. And in those conversations, I
Speaker 4: realized that I do have a choice, that actually the
Speaker 4: person who killed my brother was not just killing my brother.
Speaker 4: It was controlling my life for the last eight years.
Speaker 4: And I've let him make the choices for me. Every
Speaker 4: time I chose to be angry, every time I chose
Speaker 4: to hate, every time I chose revenge because of him,
Speaker 4: and I let that anger make me want to do
Speaker 4: something bad. I was being his slave. I was being
Speaker 4: following his choices, not mine, and realizing that I wanted
Speaker 4: to free myself and make my own choices and go
Speaker 4: on a path that is stay is different, that brings
Speaker 4: down those barriers that divide us, the barriers of hate,
Speaker 4: the barriers of anger, the barriers of fear, the barriers
Speaker 4: of you know, all those things, and to reach out
Speaker 4: to people on the other side and realizing we're not
Speaker 4: really unopposite sides, that we can be on the same
Speaker 4: side together. And that's how I see my relationship with Mouths.
Speaker 4: Were not an Israeli and a Palestinian. Yes we are,
Speaker 4: but we're not really an Israelian a Palestinian in a
Speaker 4: nationalist term. We are both together working for the same
Speaker 4: vision and the same mission.
Speaker 1: Why do you suppose it's so rare what you guys
Speaker 1: are doing? And I hope this picts up momentum, this
Speaker 1: bridge building, but at the moment, it's not common.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3: I think it's more common than the media or the public.
Speaker 3: Is a way of especially the public and the discourse,
Speaker 3: the international discourse in Palestin, in Israel, between the rivers
Speaker 3: to the sea, there are so many organizations an individual
Speaker 3: that walking on the ground to create a shared future.
Speaker 3: As this was a co chairman of the Family Circle,
Speaker 3: a group of believed families from both sides in Soneties
Speaker 3: and Plastidia. And there is the competitor for peaces, people
Speaker 3: who decided to choose a different way, not a violence resisted,
Speaker 3: but a non violence resistance. And there is the Women
Speaker 3: of the Sun and Women Watch Peace is Read in
Speaker 3: Palestinian women movements. And we have standing together a Jewish
Speaker 3: arable organization when with Israel that is now protecting humanitarian
Speaker 3: aid trucks that are going to Gaza. So on the
Speaker 3: ground there are so many. But and this is why
Speaker 3: we're so thankful to your David and to do the
Speaker 3: TED organizers for inviting us to open the TED twenty
Speaker 3: twenty four. Because we must have not just our voices
Speaker 3: to be heard and to be amplified and using our
Speaker 3: easier votes, we must be on the table where the
Speaker 3: decisions are being made because we have been overlooked. The
Speaker 3: civil society between the rivel to the to the sea
Speaker 3: has been overlooked for so many years, too many years,
Speaker 3: and we need to be there the decision are being
Speaker 3: made in order to make this the last one. It's
Speaker 3: as simple as that. So this is the journey. It's
Speaker 3: not just the two of us, our coalition. Our partners
Speaker 3: decided to take and to use our thorough our pain,
Speaker 3: our orgony to dialogue, to partner for a better future.
Speaker 4: I agree. I think there's many of us. We might
Speaker 4: not be necessarily the majority right now, but that's because
Speaker 4: right now people are hurt and people are in pain,
Speaker 4: and not everybody. When people are afraid, and when people
Speaker 4: are in pain and when people are suffering, it's hard
Speaker 4: for us, you know, as a humans, to make to
Speaker 4: make rational decisions. That's not only in our case. I
Speaker 4: think that's everywhere in the world. People can cannot think
Speaker 4: rationally in these times. And that's why our voices are
Speaker 4: important this time, me Mas and many others like us
Speaker 4: who are really trying hard. But I'll just agree with
Speaker 4: MOUs it's not easy to get our voices across, whether
Speaker 4: it's in the media, and so we need all the
Speaker 4: help we can to amplify voices like ours. We need
Speaker 4: all the help we can to let the world know
Speaker 4: that we exist, and to let world leaders know we exist,
Speaker 4: and to make sure, like Moos said earlier, we are
Speaker 4: not sidelined. We look every peace agreement and the negotiations
Speaker 4: that have happened beween Israelis and Palestinians so far with
Speaker 4: the US, with Europe, peacemakers like us were not part
Speaker 4: of it, and I think that's one of the reasons
Speaker 4: things havn't worked out well so far. The stuff we
Speaker 4: know about how to build relationships, the stuff we live,
Speaker 4: and we know each other way better than anybody else
Speaker 4: in this country know each other. We spend so much
Speaker 4: time together. We talk, we don't always agree, we work
Speaker 4: through disagreements. We know how to talk through tough communication stuff.
Speaker 4: You know, we were in an event was a nine
Speaker 4: and we've had not the two of us, but the
Speaker 4: group of Palestinians of Israelis at disagreements, had hard moments
Speaker 4: that or even tears, and that's fine. But we know
Speaker 4: how to work through it, and our politicians don't know
Speaker 4: how to work through it. And so if you know,
Speaker 4: I don't want to sound a little too arrogant, but
Speaker 4: if the experts on this are not invited to the
Speaker 4: table when these conversations are happening, we shouldn't be surprised
Speaker 4: that we are where we are today.
Speaker 1: You guys are, of course correct that there are other
Speaker 1: groups on the ground and that we don't hear about
Speaker 1: them very much. One of the other organizations that we
Speaker 1: met at TED this year was an Israeli Palestinian choir
Speaker 1: of children who sing together.
Speaker 2: That was extremely moving.
Speaker 1: But why do you suppose that so many people are
Speaker 1: interested in widening the gap as opposed to bridging the divide.
Speaker 1: I can understand, and in the sense that, for example,
Speaker 1: as he's with your story about the anger, or my
Speaker 1: oles with your story, so many people feel an anger
Speaker 1: that they can never let go. So what can we
Speaker 1: do as a society to bring people from the widening
Speaker 1: divide camp over towards the bridging camp.
Speaker 4: I think I understand people anger. We have to relate
Speaker 4: to people, not to attack them. I you know, somebody
Speaker 4: asked me today, a journalist, how do I call somebody
Speaker 4: in Gaza now and tell them about peace? And I said,
Speaker 4: if I call someone in Gaza right now, I don't
Speaker 4: start lecturing them about peace. If I do that, I'm
Speaker 4: out of touch. I am, I'm being ridiculous If I
Speaker 4: do that. The first thing is starts with listening to
Speaker 4: people paint, listening to where they're coming from, crying with them,
Speaker 4: feeling what they feel. That's very If we not with
Speaker 4: people in their hard moments, then I'm gonna listen to us.
Speaker 4: So that's that's I think a major part. You know,
Speaker 4: one of the stories that was most touching to me.
Speaker 4: I always like to share is this friend of mine
Speaker 4: named antone goodman who works for Rabbis for human rights,
Speaker 4: and right after October seventh, where he had friends being killed,
Speaker 4: and he would go to the funerals and he will
Speaker 4: leave the funerals and drive to the West Bank where
Speaker 4: Palestinians he knew there were being attacked by settlers and
Speaker 4: he would bring them whatever they need because they weren't
Speaker 4: able to buy supplies. They didn't have food, they didn't
Speaker 4: have water, and they were in terrible situation. He was
Speaker 4: leaving a funeral of one of his friends and driving
Speaker 4: into the West Bank and being with these people. And
Speaker 4: that's how you really beat that hate and that fear,
Speaker 4: and that you know, that divide by being there, by
Speaker 4: being with people, by showing that you care. You mentioned
Speaker 4: I always mentioned earlier, standing together and being out in
Speaker 4: the streets. You know, peacemaking isn't just in a room,
Speaker 4: isn't just in a comfort. You're out with people in
Speaker 4: the streets, You're out with them, seeing where the need
Speaker 4: is and saying we will do action together, when when
Speaker 4: Mahos says hope is an action. I look at these
Speaker 4: people and I send those videos to friends of mine, Palatinians,
Speaker 4: friends of mine, and they see it and they they
Speaker 4: are amazed.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I had one Palacinian friend come at ted to the
Speaker 4: meeting with standing together, and I had to convince him
Speaker 4: to come. I was like, come on, it will be
Speaker 4: really good, and this is I don't know if I
Speaker 4: want to hear another.
Speaker 3: Is right now.
Speaker 4: And I kept pushing him and he came with me
Speaker 4: and halfway through Uri was speaking from standing together, and
Speaker 4: halfway through the talk he leansward me and he goes,
Speaker 4: I want this guy to be our president, the Palestinian president.
Speaker 4: And he was amazed by the conversation. He's like the
Speaker 4: way he speaks, the compassion he has, the empathy he
Speaker 4: has so to me, at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: being with people, crying with them, being there, helping wherever
Speaker 4: there is need, but also telling people's stories. You know,
Speaker 4: people who listening to us right now might not be
Speaker 4: able to be underground, but they can pass these stories
Speaker 4: and nothing changes who we are, Nothing really moves us
Speaker 4: more than stories. And John Paul Ledrac, one of the
Speaker 4: fathers of conflict resolution, Field used to say, when you're
Speaker 4: in an intractable conflict and feel nothing is working, you
Speaker 4: still have the stories that you can share and those
Speaker 4: stories will eventually make Those stories will eventually reach people
Speaker 4: hearts and make a change. So people can take my story,
Speaker 4: they can take Masa's story, they can take Antone story,
Speaker 4: they can take standing together stories, they can take there
Speaker 4: are so many of these stories. If they share them,
Speaker 4: we can bring that divide much much less and understand
Speaker 4: that there is a way to work together. And as
Speaker 4: I must say, he's also walking the walk. He's not
Speaker 4: just talking the top because as he approached me on
Speaker 4: the oktob eight sending me a message on my Facebook
Speaker 4: and we ever met before, we met only for two minutes,
Speaker 4: maybe a decade ago, and we knew each other since
Speaker 4: being in the same industry in tourism. But as this
Speaker 4: approached me on What'sapp and said, I'm sending my condolescence
Speaker 4: and I just want you to know that I'm with you,
Speaker 4: and I immediately reply with a broken art And two
Speaker 4: days after, I think we spoke for the first time
Speaker 4: ever one on one on WhatsApp or Google me, and
Speaker 4: then we've done a webinar together, And you cannot believe
Speaker 4: it's very difficult to pay condolescence in general. Okay, if
Speaker 4: it's for your neighbor, a class and made friend, it's
Speaker 4: very difficult to go to a wet ceremony or pick
Speaker 4: up the phone and send your condolescence. So can you
Speaker 4: imagine how difficult I knew how difficult it is for
Speaker 4: a Palestinian to pay its convalescence to me. And the
Speaker 4: only npiece ignested members in Israel that caught my family
Speaker 4: well Arab parliament members.
Speaker 3: None of the Jewish Israeli parliament members ever called us.
Speaker 3: He didn't send us a letter, nothing, what's up message? Nothing,
Speaker 3: So it's this is bravery. This is bravery, and I
Speaker 3: must match it. I just must as a human as
Speaker 3: I had to match it. And of course to start
Speaker 3: this dialogue, very difficult dialogue. And and that's a reason
Speaker 3: I get connected. And we are brothers in pain, in sorrow,
Speaker 3: and and we also brothers in in the know how
Speaker 3: the importance of dialogue, the importance of knowing the other
Speaker 3: side negative, not necessarily agreed not to agree on the
Speaker 3: other side, negative, but just a way that there is
Speaker 3: another narrative. And then together we are building a new narrative,
Speaker 3: a narrative of the future. And this is what we
Speaker 3: are focusing all our energy.
Speaker 1: Now, Moos, you mentioned earlier that you had learned three lessons.
Speaker 2: Tell us about that.
Speaker 3: So the first two lessons I learned from our mutual thread.
Speaker 3: Now Ramsi a Palestinian peace activist and peacemakers, and he
Speaker 3: was interviewed with my brother again to the CNN with
Speaker 3: Christian Aman Paul, and Christian asked him Ramsey, well do
Speaker 3: you find hope? It was after October seven when the
Speaker 3: war on Gazza wage in a dramatic and castostophic numbers
Speaker 3: and news arrived any old there, I don't find it.
Speaker 3: I created hope is an action, and together with hamsi
Speaker 3: as It and others, we came out with a formula.
Speaker 3: A simple formula might be difficult to execute by very simple.
Speaker 3: For how we are creating hope, it's starting that we
Speaker 3: create up together. You can never create up on your own,
Speaker 3: Just like love, you must have partners. And then we
Speaker 3: must envision a better future and act to make this
Speaker 3: future into reality and prove ourselves that our actions are effective.
Speaker 3: That's it. That's how you create hope, because if our
Speaker 3: actions are effective, it means we're going to reach this
Speaker 3: envisioned future. So this is what we are doing now,
Speaker 3: and we help others frame the work and their efforts
Speaker 3: und the notion that they are creating hope. They are
Speaker 3: not coming to us or speaking to us to find
Speaker 3: to look or that will give it them hope. They
Speaker 3: are creating hope the oralization we may, but also so
Speaker 3: many others, and this is our hope is being created.
Speaker 3: This second lesson I let from Ramseh. It was when
Speaker 3: he said that he's willing to forgive about the past,
Speaker 3: he's willing to forgive about the present, but he won't forgive,
Speaker 3: not to himself and to no one else about the future.
Speaker 3: And this is a very fundamental sentence and phrase. What
Speaker 3: does it mean forgive and to whom about the past
Speaker 3: and the present? That's what I ask myself, and I
Speaker 3: realized that in order to build the future, I must forgive.
Speaker 3: The easy answer was I need to forgive. Hamas Hamas
Speaker 3: push the trigger in my narrative, Hamas kill my parents.
Speaker 3: Hamas is a fundamentalist extusimist organization that is oppressing and
Speaker 3: killing his own people and innocent people in general. And
Speaker 3: it was my parents' misfortune and bad luck that Hamas
Speaker 3: kill them. But all my anger, I was seeking revenge.
Speaker 3: I wanted to punish. I was blaming those who I
Speaker 3: held accountable for the killing of my parents and my friends.
Speaker 3: And this is the Israeli government. This is raally government
Speaker 3: has promised us, the Israelis, the Jewish is realiest again
Speaker 3: and again, security and safety, and they didn't do to
Speaker 3: the promise. So I want to punish them. But those
Speaker 3: feelings were destroying me from the inside. I stopped. I
Speaker 3: literally stopped functioning as a father, as a husband. I
Speaker 3: become sick physically and mentally. But after listening to Hamsey,
Speaker 3: I said, maybe I need to forgive them in order
Speaker 3: to cure myself not to be sick. So I've decided
Speaker 3: it's a decision forgiveness. Unlike reconciliation, forgiveness is something you
Speaker 3: can do on your own. It's not a dialogue. You
Speaker 3: can make a decision to forgive. Reconciliation is a process
Speaker 3: which we must choose as people. I've decided to forgive
Speaker 3: this is Raelic government, which was for me a breakthrough
Speaker 3: and when I'm telling it to Israelis Jewish Israelis, they
Speaker 3: cannot believe it. They cannot believe it. Like when I'm
Speaker 3: speaking to my friends in Gaza, they say, we will
Speaker 3: never forgive Ramas, we will never forgive from us, but
Speaker 3: we must. We must in order to build the future.
Speaker 3: And the third lesson is about the future. The gap
Speaker 3: between as this story and my stories, this Israeli is
Speaker 3: as Palestinian, has never been as wide as today. It's
Speaker 3: never as been as white. The gap is huge, but
Speaker 3: and it's the biggest but I ever encountered in my life.
Speaker 3: There is a miracle. Our store is meet the Israelies
Speaker 3: and Palestinian store is meat in the future future that
Speaker 3: is based on this only a common ground share principles acknowledged,
Speaker 3: acknowledgment and recognition, equality and dignit, reconciliation and healing, security
Speaker 3: and safety. We meet in the future. And I didn't
Speaker 3: came up with those principals on my own. We built
Speaker 3: it together as Is and myself and seventy others Palestinian
Speaker 3: and Israelis. We gathered for seventy two hours with a
Speaker 3: two Geneva based organizations, Beto Hope and Principals for peace,
Speaker 3: and we wrote a chilter one page child, but a
Speaker 3: very profound, very inspiring one chilter that is dealing only
Speaker 3: with the principles of the future and now what we
Speaker 3: should do. And David, I sis, our well parties, we
Speaker 3: need together to take our people there, to take humanity
Speaker 3: to this future. And I don't believe that it's possible.
Speaker 3: I know that it's possible.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm going to link the Charter for
Speaker 1: the Future sure in the show notes so everyone can
Speaker 1: access this and see this. And the really amazing news
Speaker 1: is that what you guys are doing is working. It's
Speaker 1: catching fire. You both recently met with a world leader.
Speaker 1: Tell us about that.
Speaker 4: An amazing world leader. We both met with Pope Francis.
Speaker 4: Didn't just meet him, We got to hug him, which
Speaker 4: is you know, I was telling my os the night
Speaker 4: before we met him, as I know, we barely probably
Speaker 4: gonna touch, you know, go and like shake his hands,
Speaker 4: but my dream is to hug the pocon and he
Speaker 4: pulled us in to do that. But it was very meaningful.
Speaker 4: It was very meaningful because he is a very influential man.
Speaker 4: He's a you know, billions of people listen to his
Speaker 4: voice and what he has to say, and world leaders
Speaker 4: listen to him. He's going to be attending the G
Speaker 4: seven meeting, for example, and so we wanted to have
Speaker 4: our voices and our stories presented to him, and he
Speaker 4: responded in such a powerful way.
Speaker 3: He hugged us.
Speaker 4: He told people to take a moment of silence and
Speaker 4: reflect and how they can help us. There were over
Speaker 4: twelve thousand people in the gathering in an arena depache
Speaker 4: in Verona. He then talked about how war is not
Speaker 4: a solution, how war only creates more misery and more suffering,
Speaker 4: which is exactly what we believe and realize. We align,
Speaker 4: We align fully, and so we very grateful and honestly,
Speaker 4: the question is why other leaders are not inviting us
Speaker 4: to talk to them as well. This is you know,
Speaker 4: G seven going to be discussing Israel and Palestine, but
Speaker 4: our voices are not there as of now, and we're
Speaker 4: hoping that they realize how important it is to hear
Speaker 4: people like Malos and me and others. It doesn't have
Speaker 4: to be the two of us, but somebody should be
Speaker 4: there from our community, and the absence of that voice
Speaker 4: is not helpful at all, so, yeah, I was how
Speaker 4: they feel for humans.
Speaker 3: It's I'm still digesting was happening there on the stage seriously,
Speaker 3: But now I'm honest and humid enough to say that
Speaker 3: this was a life changing event for me. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, we made this story because the pope
Speaker 3: a message was so profound about the importance of conflict
Speaker 3: in order to rise, to evaluate, to improve humanity. But
Speaker 3: it's up to us, humanity, humans to choose how to
Speaker 3: solve those conflicts through war or through dialogue, and it's
Speaker 3: our decision to make and if we choose, and again
Speaker 3: it's in the family life, in business, partnership, neighborhood and
Speaker 3: between nations. When we choose to solve the conflicts through dialogue,
Speaker 3: it's empowering. We are rising, were evolving through this dialogue
Speaker 3: and hearing pop Forensics saying that gave me so much energy,
Speaker 3: just believing in as Seas and I, but in our
Speaker 3: coalition and organization that we are working with the strength
Speaker 3: the strengths of the past. We choose, and we choose
Speaker 3: the path of dialogue, of reconciliation, of partnership. And before
Speaker 3: the going on stage, we were asked by many of
Speaker 3: the Italian journalists, is peace possible? And we kept telling
Speaker 3: them you are the answer. The twelve thousand piece builders,
Speaker 3: that they are the departure of the answer, because eighty
Speaker 3: years ago there was one wedging in Europe. Millions, tens
Speaker 3: of millions were killed in Europe, and we came to
Speaker 3: every honor from Brassel and everywhere you go, you see
Speaker 3: the same flag of the EU. Everyone are getting ready
Speaker 3: for the U election. You don't pass any border control,
Speaker 3: no passports between the EU that are being stamped using
Speaker 3: the same currency. So Europe is the answer. And we
Speaker 3: told them you're the answer that now we need your guidance,
Speaker 3: your support to envision with us the future between the
Speaker 3: river and the sea. And it was very very powerful moment.
Speaker 1: When we look around right now, what we see are
Speaker 1: young people taking clear sides. But what do you guys
Speaker 1: think is the right way to get young people to
Speaker 1: take the side of bridge building and think about how
Speaker 1: to do that.
Speaker 4: I actually want to start on kind of building and
Speaker 4: what ma O's mentioned a bit earlier in answering that one.
Speaker 4: I'm always happy when young people are active. I'm a
Speaker 4: bit disagree when people say, oh, they shouldn't protest, they
Speaker 4: shouldn't be out. We want the compassion, We want them
Speaker 4: to care, we want them not to be apathetic. But
Speaker 4: we also want to try to help guide that momentum
Speaker 4: into making a change and making sure it doesn't lead
Speaker 4: into hatred, it doesn't lead into more polarization. And there's
Speaker 4: a thin line between one sometimes and the other. And
Speaker 4: so we want to be part of making sure that yes,
Speaker 4: people are out, people are expressing their opinions. Look, I'm
Speaker 4: very grateful for the Israelis for protesting. So I always
Speaker 4: say the faces when I see somebody like my o's
Speaker 4: and somebody like standing together and somebody like women wish
Speaker 4: peace out in the street, that gives me straight, That
Speaker 4: gives me hope. And so I can't come to America
Speaker 4: and tell people, well, but you shouldn't do it. But
Speaker 4: let's think together what makes a difference. So I would
Speaker 4: start with what Mao's mentioned. I think narratives are so important.
Speaker 4: Understanding the narratives, understanding the stories, get yourself to know
Speaker 4: where where the sides are coming from, and understand that
Speaker 4: are difference. But let's think not only of the differences
Speaker 4: of the past, but also of how can we move
Speaker 4: together towards the future, making sure we work together Jew's, Muslims,
Speaker 4: Christians and not be this is a Muslim group, and
Speaker 4: this is a Jooshi group and so on. And I
Speaker 4: know this because in my in my journey, learning the
Speaker 4: Israeli narrative was extremely, extremely important. This is why I
Speaker 4: started Measurey tours where I take people with the all
Speaker 4: narratives and get people to understand the two narratives. And
Speaker 4: I watch people who are angry one sided Israelis or Palestinians,
Speaker 4: pro Israelis or pro Palestinians come in the tour and
Speaker 4: leave really transformed, not necessarily changing every political view, but
Speaker 4: having more compassion and having more empathy. So that's where
Speaker 4: you start. You start with learning the narrative. And secondly
Speaker 4: you start learning what you can organize and how you
Speaker 4: can organize in a way that can make pressure and
Speaker 4: can make a difference. And so I've been working actually
Speaker 4: with some of the campuses, being talking to people who
Speaker 4: work in those campuses, talking to few conflict resolutions experts,
Speaker 4: and I think in some campuses it has worked incredibly.
Speaker 4: A dialogue has worked well between the university and the
Speaker 4: universities and the students and the administration. I was involved
Speaker 4: in one before this that was, you know, as speaker
Speaker 4: was invited that the students didn't like, and so that
Speaker 4: speaker is very anti Palestinians, and they wanted to make
Speaker 4: it clear that the university that they're not happy about
Speaker 4: the choice. The administration didn't know really what to do
Speaker 4: and reached out. I worked with the president of the
Speaker 4: university and with my colleagues and negotiating between the sides,
Speaker 4: and we ended up coming out with really an amazing
Speaker 4: solution where the students were recognized for their objection of
Speaker 4: the speaker, but they had a space to do that
Speaker 4: within the program, where before the speaker got unstaged, they
Speaker 4: were told, you know, we understand you have some concerns.
Speaker 4: You're not happy about our choice, and we know that
Speaker 4: some of you don't feel comfortable being here with the
Speaker 4: commencement speaker for this year, and if you would like
Speaker 4: to leave, we understand that. And their grievance is were
Speaker 4: shared with everyone in the room. Some of them got
Speaker 4: up and left, The speaker got on stage did her talk.
Speaker 4: There were not a one disturbance through the whole time,
Speaker 4: and everyone was happy about that resolution. I think we
Speaker 4: jumped very quickly into accusations and into positions, and into
Speaker 4: even sometimes looking and those stories of like the one
Speaker 4: story we don't like and instead of looking for how
Speaker 4: do we negotiate and come up with solutions that works
Speaker 4: for everyone. If you have concerns, you're not happy, that
Speaker 4: is fine. We should respect that, and let's talk about
Speaker 4: how can we work together and what can be done
Speaker 4: and what the university can be with the students and
Speaker 4: for the students to be also paragmatic, and you know
Speaker 4: which is harder to do sometimes on eighteen and nineteen
Speaker 4: year old I remember myself in those times. But honestly,
Speaker 4: there's so much possibilities of solutions that are just not
Speaker 4: being executed. And partially because on American campuses it very
Speaker 4: quickly became a political big thing and every leader of
Speaker 4: every party, every extremeists start showing up and campuses and
Speaker 4: you have people shouting at each other and you don't
Speaker 4: come to solutions doing that.
Speaker 3: Also, David, if it's okay, I'm inviting universities and students
Speaker 3: to approach us. It can be as easy I through
Speaker 3: our social media or it's very very easy to find
Speaker 3: us and reach out, and it's not just as easy.
Speaker 3: And I there are so many now that we have
Speaker 3: like an intelligation teams, but are still in his realities
Speaker 3: that can come all through webinars, all physically to your universities,
Speaker 3: to all communities, to your walking place, and we can
Speaker 3: help you because then you will lelp us. It's it.
Speaker 3: We are all in it together. So please, this is
Speaker 3: exactly what we want to offer. Also because we think
Speaker 3: we know from our own experience the importance of dialogue,
Speaker 3: the importance of knowing the other side narrative, not to agree,
Speaker 3: but knowing the other side negative in order to build
Speaker 3: a shared society. Those who say we are pro Israelis,
Speaker 3: we are poor partistans. We are produced, we are brought that.
Speaker 3: I always tell them, you're right, and you choose the
Speaker 3: right side. Of course, you choose the right side. By
Speaker 3: choosing the right side, we are ensuring the wall will continue.
Speaker 3: It's as simple as that. It's very sad, but it's
Speaker 3: as simple as that. If you want the bloodshed to end,
Speaker 3: the world to end, you must choose the peacemakers. You
Speaker 3: must choose humanity, you must choose dialogue. And this is
Speaker 3: what so many of us, between the evidence to the
Speaker 3: sea already have decided to choose the world with But
Speaker 3: if will be amplified, if we'll be supported by others,
Speaker 3: we're going to reach and lasting sooner. So it can
Speaker 3: be done and it's not that difficult.
Speaker 4: So yeah, we've been We've been going to like corporates,
Speaker 4: we've been going to universities, We've been doing a lot
Speaker 4: of webinars as well, and talking about how to have
Speaker 4: a hard conversation. How do you deal with what is Islamophobia?
Speaker 4: What is anti Semitism? How do we counter that? How
Speaker 4: do we make sure we have those conversations without falling
Speaker 4: into these tropes. And that's important because many of us, honestly,
Speaker 4: this expectation that everyone knows what is what is ridiculous.
Speaker 4: We have hard questions to ask and I enjoy doing,
Speaker 4: for example, the Islamophobia training because I realized so many
Speaker 4: people go like, part of the discussion is people going
Speaker 4: so if I say this, so if I think that,
Speaker 4: but what about this idea? And you have an honest
Speaker 4: and transparent discussion and those you know, the teams, that
Speaker 4: intervention teams that Maos is talking about. That's what we're
Speaker 4: doing is going around saying we want to help instead
Speaker 4: of fighting and arguing and all of that, please invite us.
Speaker 4: We can support you, We can be there for you
Speaker 4: in those kind of situations, and we have people who
Speaker 4: are the best at doing that. It's not fortunately, it's
Speaker 4: not just mouths and eye because that's not enough. There
Speaker 4: are others who are doing incredible work with us and
Speaker 4: incredible theams.
Speaker 2: So tell me what you guys are doing right now then.
Speaker 3: So now, after envisioning the future and sharing the dream
Speaker 3: of peace between the river and the sea and reaching
Speaker 3: a common ground and shared values, we are broadening our coalition.
Speaker 3: Now this is the third step, is to broad out coalition.
Speaker 3: So we walk on the ground between the river and
Speaker 3: the sea, and we are also being supported and reached.
Speaker 3: We are reaching out to international community like would lead there,
Speaker 3: like pop puances, but we are reaching out too many
Speaker 3: more to broad out coalition of the future. This is
Speaker 3: what we are do talking about about a better future.
Speaker 3: And we have a world map, a blueprint, a plan
Speaker 3: how to reach this future, and we put some milestones.
Speaker 3: There are some milestones that we are going to. First
Speaker 3: milestone is amplifier voices. Amplify our voices, share our tato,
Speaker 3: share this podcast, share our meeting, and the only ad
Speaker 3: with the Pope, so people, more and more people throughout
Speaker 3: the world will know that there are more and more
Speaker 3: people that believe that peace between the river and disease possible.
Speaker 3: And the second milestone is to build legitimacy to the
Speaker 3: priest process and to ask as reason myself to but
Speaker 3: also to our coalition members, build legitimacy as the leaders
Speaker 3: of the future. And in order to also do that
Speaker 3: on the ground, we are doing in Israel the biggest
Speaker 3: piece event that was held in two decades. We oriented
Speaker 3: the biggest indoor arena in Tel Aviv, and on July first,
Speaker 3: we're gonna do event that is going to be branded
Speaker 3: It's about time. It's about time to make peaces. It's
Speaker 3: a people processed But we are also being supported and
Speaker 3: protected by some of the most influential people in the world.
Speaker 3: And we're walking simultaneously in Palestine and in Israel, and
Speaker 3: we still Chrohnaze between us and in order if you
Speaker 3: won't wish and are ready to help and join us,
Speaker 3: join one of the organizations we mentioned before. We do
Speaker 3: so many webinars, we do so much walk on the
Speaker 3: ground and online, So join us and also and support us.
Speaker 4: And I'll add only a couple of things. I agree obviously,
Speaker 4: every thing in the amplifying our voices. We are working
Speaker 4: and having short videos that will be released, some of
Speaker 4: them starting next month, of voices like oz and mine,
Speaker 4: and we need people to share those. We need people
Speaker 4: to amplify those to make sure they get to everybody.
Speaker 4: We're not just saying share my voice and US's voice.
Speaker 4: We want to make sure people know it's not just
Speaker 4: the two of us. So please do that, and to
Speaker 4: do that, follow us, and we will keep you posted
Speaker 4: on it. I would say, invite us to invite your
Speaker 4: community and do a webinar with some of the people
Speaker 4: we mentioned. We have this one person who reached out
Speaker 4: to us a couple of months ago and she said, look,
Speaker 4: I don't have a lot of money to donate, I
Speaker 4: don't have a lot of things I can do, but
Speaker 4: can I organize a webinar? And you know, I'll help
Speaker 4: you with the donation to do that, but I'm going
Speaker 4: to invite twenty of my friends, and those twenty that
Speaker 4: attended ended up, each one of them inviting their own friends.
Speaker 4: And this one person, starting with the twenty fifteen twenty people,
Speaker 4: is now reaching potentially hundreds of people, and who knows
Speaker 4: how many more because she took that initiative, and really
Speaker 4: just people being willing to take an initiative. Our work
Speaker 4: is heavily focused on making our voices heard and educational
Speaker 4: and if we can everyone can help with that. And
Speaker 4: I think maybe maybe I'll just add one more thing.
Speaker 4: We both are travel entrepreneurs, right. We both want to
Speaker 4: invite people, which I know now maybe is a bit harder,
Speaker 4: although we are doing a couple of trips a year
Speaker 4: to just still bring people and listen to us. I
Speaker 4: found this poem and I want to read it and
Speaker 4: Noma as if you heard it before. It's by something
Speaker 4: I'll class them, and it's about traveling, and I like
Speaker 4: it because it's it speaks kind of our story, but
Speaker 4: I think it speaks to everyone, and it says that
Speaker 4: they am killed.
Speaker 3: My killer.
Speaker 4: Rifling through my pockets will find travel tickets, one to peace,
Speaker 4: one to fields and the rain, and one to the
Speaker 4: conscience of a humankind. I beg you, my dear killer,
Speaker 4: don't ignore them, don't waste such a thing, but take
Speaker 4: and use the tickets.
Speaker 3: Please.
Speaker 4: I beg you to go traveling. And I love this
Speaker 4: ticket with this poem because Like I said, we both
Speaker 4: are travel entrepreneur. We're all about traveling, but the traveling.
Speaker 4: We want to encourage everyone who listening to us, regardless
Speaker 4: where they come from, even the killers of our loved ones,
Speaker 4: to travel like somethingle clossoms say, to travel to peace,
Speaker 4: to travel to the consciousness of a humankind, to travel
Speaker 4: to do something good and change even the meaning of
Speaker 4: what travel is.
Speaker 1: Thank you both so much and together, let's keep amplifying
Speaker 1: the message as is.
Speaker 3: You took my word the way. I just want to
Speaker 3: tell you that I love you.
Speaker 4: I love you too, man, it's all I'm always happy
Speaker 4: when I see your face.
Speaker 3: Thank you, bud It.
Speaker 1: That was Aziz Abusa and Mao Zion, two extraordinary men.
Speaker 1: There are lots of opinions on the conflict in the
Speaker 1: Middle East, and there's no shortage of really tough and
Speaker 1: angry feelings. But to me, this feels like the mature
Speaker 1: conversation that needs to be had.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: You may be surprised that I just did an episode
Speaker 1: on the Middle East conflict and didn't propose any.
Speaker 2: Particular political solution. That is on purpose.
Speaker 1: The Middle East has a particularly complex relationship, and this
Speaker 1: is evidenced by a fact that we've all seen that
Speaker 1: you can reach in and pull out many paths, many
Speaker 1: narratives from the history as far as what should happen next.
Speaker 1: Many of you will have opinions, conflicting strong opinions, and
Speaker 1: some of you will write to me and tell me
Speaker 1: that I'm blind, and that you know which side is
Speaker 1: right and the other is wrong. I'll receive the arguments
Speaker 1: on both sides of this, and you know what, You're right,
Speaker 1: whatever your.
Speaker 2: Opinion, You're all correct. There have been lousy, murderous, vengeful
Speaker 2: decisions on all sides of this. But the fact is
Speaker 2: we have human beings on all sides of this, and
Speaker 2: almost all of them are people who care about their families,
Speaker 2: who want to be with their friends and the sun
Speaker 2: and laugh, people who have dreams and hopes, and they
Speaker 2: want to contribute and they want to play. And the
Speaker 2: reason I'm less interested in the emails from all sides
Speaker 2: telling me I'm wrong is because there's only one thing
Speaker 2: that matters, and that is where we go from here.
Speaker 2: Can we build a better future or not.
Speaker 1: Some people on the extremes of both sides envision that
Speaker 1: the optimal future is the murder the total erature of
Speaker 1: the other side, and that's easy enough to come to
Speaker 1: that conclusion if your prefrontal circuitry is so suppressed that
Speaker 1: you see the people on the other side like objects,
Speaker 1: not worthy of all the consideration that we give other
Speaker 1: human beings.
Speaker 3: But people like.
Speaker 2: Azis and Maos are operating at a higher level.
Speaker 1: Political solutions will come out eventually, but meaningful solutions are
Speaker 1: only going to come from people who start with a
Speaker 1: position of common humanity. It hurts, there's so much pain
Speaker 1: on both sides, but we have to find our way
Speaker 1: to this position of bravery if we ever hope to
Speaker 1: get out of this mess. Maos and Azis are excellent
Speaker 1: examples of the height to which we all need to
Speaker 1: up level our dialogue if we want to work through
Speaker 1: tough problems as twenty first century citizens, because you cannot
Speaker 1: get to a solution if you are two people shouting
Speaker 1: each other from opposite sides of the negotiating table. Instead,
Speaker 1: the only way to get somewhere is to scoot your
Speaker 1: chairs around so that you're sitting with one another, both
Speaker 1: facing the problem.
Speaker 2: So while it's felt that much of the world.
Speaker 1: Is interested in separating people into binary categories, today's episode
Speaker 1: is about.
Speaker 2: Asking the question of how we can expand our very
Speaker 2: limited internal models.
Speaker 1: To take into account what we have in common, to
Speaker 1: expand our notion of in groups just a little bit
Speaker 1: so that we can actually simulate the emotions of the
Speaker 1: other person. And for those of us at a distance
Speaker 1: from the Middle East, how can we support two sides
Speaker 1: seeking threads between them which they can develop through hard
Speaker 1: work into bonds of friendship and eventually love, cranking up
Speaker 1: each other's prefrontal cortices so they can be seen once
Speaker 1: again as people with similar desires and a shared story.
Speaker 1: Go to eagleman dot com slash podcast for more information.
Speaker 1: In case you're moved by what you heard from Azis
Speaker 1: and Moos, I'm posting several links for ways that you
Speaker 1: can throw your weight into their momentum. Please send me
Speaker 1: an email at podcast at eagleman dot com with questions
Speaker 1: or thoughts or ideas to help, and check out and
Speaker 1: subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each
Speaker 1: episode and to leave comments.
Speaker 2: Until next time. I'm David Eagleman, and this is Inner Cosmos.