1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: All media welcome. It could happen here. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: A podcast that is in many cases about organizing. I 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 2: AnGR host Mel Wong and with me is one of 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: the most experienced organizers I know, Margaret Kiljoy. 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Oh no, hi, I'm a little out of practice, but 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: I have done it a lot. 7 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 2: You know, Margaret says this and also has been doing 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 2: shit for like one bazillion years, and this is, this 9 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: is and I will say this. The sign of you 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 2: that you are running into a good organizer is when 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: you talk to them about their organizing and they immediately 12 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 2: start downplaying it. 13 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: That's when you know that you haven't catched a good organizer. 14 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: If they started immediately going I'm the best fucking organizer 15 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: in the world, run like hell, this is an asshole 16 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: who sucks someone who's like, ah, like I did this 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: a million years ago, I'm not good at it and 18 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: it didn't matter and blah blah blah blah. 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: Very good organizer, thank you. Yeah. I remember once I 20 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: went to a thing wait that was put on and 21 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: there was this, uh they were kind of turfy people 22 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: who are coming through and we didn't totally know that 23 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: right away, and their pitch about why they were such 24 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: a good experienced organizers, as one of them was like, 25 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: and this person has been organizing for more than three years, 26 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: and it was just like, Okay, every person you are 27 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: giving this talk to has done this for at least 28 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: three times as long as that. And don't get me wrong, 29 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: if you're listening and you've been organizing for three years, 30 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: you've learned a lot. I'm not trying to tell you 31 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: you're bad organizer. You might be a better organizer and 32 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: someone's been doing it longer, but don't use that as 33 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: your selling point anyway. That's very funny. 34 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So okay, this episode, we were asking you a 35 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: very very important question. Okay, you want to change something 36 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: about the world. I don't know what that thing is 37 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: that is up that is for you to determine. The 38 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: question that you need to be asking is are you 39 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 2: organizing because you want to feel cool? Or are you 40 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: organizing because you want whatever you're doing to fucking work? 41 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: And if you want you're organizing to work, literally, no 42 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: matter what it is. You actually need to listen to 43 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 2: this episode and you need to have some rudimental knowledge 44 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: of the thing we are about to talk about, because 45 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: if you do not, your organizing will fail. If you 46 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: cannot do this, the thing we're going to talk about 47 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,839 Speaker 2: in this episode, If you cannot do this, everything else 48 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 2: you know, all of your experience, all of your knowledge, 49 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: all of your passion, all of it is fucking useless 50 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: because the actual work of organizing is incredibly unglamorous. It 51 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: is un sexy, a lot of it is very time consuming, 52 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: a lot of it is not cool. It is you 53 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: sitting there and talking to a bunch of people. Yeah, 54 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: and if you want your movement to succeed, you have 55 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 2: to be able to do this kind of like groundwork, 56 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: logistical work, because if you don't, it won't work. So 57 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 2: what we are going to teach you the very very 58 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 2: very very basics of in this episode is a social 59 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 2: technology that has been developed over the course of literal 60 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: centuries of movements. 61 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: Right. 62 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: This is something that has been passed down and refined, 63 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,079 Speaker 2: like through generations and generations of organizers. I mean, I 64 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: could do a genealogy of this. A lot of the 65 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: modern stuff sort of came through the Quakers, moved through 66 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: the civil rights movements, moved through the anti war movements, 67 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 2: moved through like in Vietnam, moved to a whole bunch 68 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: of other movements like to be passed down to you today. 69 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 2: This is a complicated social technology. It does not sound complicated. 70 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 2: If you do not know how to do this, it 71 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: is impossible to try to replicate on the fly. And 72 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: that is we are going to explain to you the 73 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 2: very basis of how to run a meeting. 74 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like this way of phrasing it that 75 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: it's it's a technology, Like it's a way of applying 76 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: ideas to get something to happen. Even if a lot 77 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: of it is instinctive, there is an art to it, 78 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, no, there's stuff you can like learn 79 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: and apply and it's Yeah, technology is a good way 80 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: of framing it. 81 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's one of these things where you know, 82 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 2: you can kind of if you don't know how to 83 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 2: do this and you have people, you can kind of 84 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: sort of maybe approximate something that is a little bit 85 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: functional and the moment it runs into a stress point, 86 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: it will collapse completely. And this is a thing that 87 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: like you know, I have talked to I have done 88 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: a lot of these. I have talked to a lot 89 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: of people who've done this. I have like I have 90 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: been in rooms of people knew how to run meetings. 91 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: I've been in rooms people didn't know how to run meetings. 92 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: I have talked to a bunch of people who have 93 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: been in rooms who don't know how to run meetings, 94 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: and like there are rooms of people with collectively hundreds 95 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 2: of PhDs and because nobody in the room knew how 96 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 2: to fucking run a meeting, complete disaster they're organizing didn't work. 97 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, you have to be able to do this. 98 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 2: And it doesn't really matter, you know, we're not going 99 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: to get that much into like what mechanism are using 100 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: to make decisions because this is this is like even 101 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: like a layer below that, and so this is not 102 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 2: that you can use it, you know, regardless of whether 103 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: you're doing consensus and like, you know, like and I 104 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: think that like, if you're trying to make a decision 105 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: as a group, right and you're trying to get everyone 106 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: to want to do the thing and do it, I 107 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: think that some version of consensus is a good idea. 108 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: But this can be for a sort of just like 109 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: a you know, like a majority of world democratic process, 110 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: whatever process you were using to decide things. You need 111 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: some kind of structure thing there otherwise it's just not 112 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: going to function like none of it will. 113 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: What's wild to me is that it's almost like the 114 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: important thing is that there is a structure. There's so 115 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: many different structures you can use. Like when we come 116 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: at this, I don't actually know I'm the podcast idiot 117 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: on this episode and me is going to explain something, 118 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: but like there's a lot of different ways to do this, 119 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: and the important way, the important thing is is that 120 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: you do one of them. Like there are ways that 121 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: I think are better or worse, right, but you do 122 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: actually need to create a structure and move forward with 123 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: that structure in order to get anything done, which is 124 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: the whole secret of organizing. Like that is what organizing is. 125 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: Is you actually have to say, not only do I 126 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: want something to get done, but I'm going to figure 127 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: out the steps by which to get that done. And 128 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: it also applies to metians. 129 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and like that kind of undergirting thing of 130 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: figuring out how how you're going to do it, right, 131 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: Like that that's the part of organizing that as you're saying, 132 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 2: it's like nothing works without it, because it is like 133 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 2: of what organizing is, and otherwise you were just saying 134 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: things into the wind. And admittedly my job is to 135 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: say things into the wind. So I hope you do 136 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 2: it so like, you know, I have a little bit 137 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: of respect to that. But also you need to have 138 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: some way of getting other people to do things. 139 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a when you sit around with your 140 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: friends and like, oh, someone should do this. No one's 141 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: actually named someone. Yeah you know, I mean somewhere, there's 142 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: a non binary person somewhere. But shout out to someone. 143 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 144 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're listening to someone, congratulations, you're a master 145 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: level troll. But like my friend, don't ask their name was, 146 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: don't ask. It's great anyway, whatever, but someone needs to 147 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: get something done. And if you leave a thing being like, 148 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: oh someone should do this, you didn't organize, you have 149 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: to say, yeah, this is what following people are doing. Yep. 150 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: Also shout out also to everyone who has been in 151 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: meetings with me and are like Smark, I'm insufferable in meetings. 152 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: I try really hard, but anyway, whatever. 153 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: Oh god, okay, okay. So this largely is going to 154 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: be like how to run a meeting? 155 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: What a one. 156 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: We're going to start at like zero zero zero, which 157 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: is you need a place to meet, and that place 158 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: to meet has to be accessible to everyone who's trying 159 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: to go to the meeting. This is a thing that 160 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: people screw up a lot. It is not that hard 161 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: to find the place as accessible for everyone to go. 162 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: You can do this. 163 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: There are lots of places you can have meetings, depending 164 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: on how sensitive the meeting is, you know, how formal 165 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: and formal it is. I've done meetings and restaurants and 166 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 2: meetings and bars of them in libraries, people use churches sometimes, 167 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 2: like queer centers, union halls, parks. 168 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: I want to shit talk bars really quickly. Yeah, I 169 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: don't think bars is a great idea, but I don't 170 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: think it's accessible to people who are under twenty one, 171 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: and I don't think it's accessible to people who have 172 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: problems being around drinking. That said, they happen there, and 173 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say you're bad for having had 174 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: meetings there, but I just want to say that, yeah, 175 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: Bars is one that like people go to a lot. 176 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: And like, yeah, there's definitely issues with it, right, But 177 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: I don't know, like you can have them people's houses. 178 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: Sometimes you can like go into like a mesa or 179 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: whatever and you can go have am meeting there. You 180 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 2: can get people to just like go out somewhere and 181 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: do it. 182 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, I don't know like you. 183 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 2: You are capable of thinking of lots of places where 184 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: you can have meetings, but you actually do need to 185 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: have a location. And this is actually again I've talked 186 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: about this before, but it's like one of the organizing 187 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: things that is actually really important is like knowing how 188 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: to get a room for a meeting or get it 189 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: room for something to happen. You have to be able 190 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: to do this. This is like zero o zero, like okay, 191 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 2: you know, okay, so you've now achieved this, and congratulations, 192 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: you clowns have now achieved a location. I am going 193 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: to stick a provisional thing in here, which is this 194 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: is this has jumping the gun a little bit, but 195 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: I need to put in here. Do not use Robert 196 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: rules of order. One of the things you will be told, 197 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: and if you have been in organizations before, a lot 198 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: of them use the thing called Robert rules of Orders, 199 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: which is this old, like incredibly allaborate set of parliamentary procedures. 200 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: Do not use them. They suck. 201 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: And this gets into before we can even talk about 202 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: what a meeting is right and how you do it. 203 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: You really really do not want your meetings to get 204 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 2: bogged down in everyone having to learn one million lines 205 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 2: of parliamentary procedure. And this is a problem for any 206 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 2: meeting technology that you use, because they all do involve 207 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: a little bit of technical stuff because you have to 208 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 2: get people to be able to do things okay, But 209 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 2: one thing with Robert Tools of Order is that like, 210 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: it's like hundreds of pages, right, and in those hundreds 211 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 2: of pages are the recipe for one asshole to derail 212 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 2: your entire meeting by doing a whole bunch of unhinged 213 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: parliamentary shit. I have seen this happen. It sucks. This 214 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: is something that you can technically do in any meeting structure. 215 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: But the more pique the rules of the meeting are, 216 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: the easier the shit is to do and the harder 217 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 2: it is to be Like please stop. 218 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to have a a certain amount of 219 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: flexibility in the way that you do things because every system, 220 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: it's the problem with law as a concept, right, is 221 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: every system can you can find loopholes. And anyone who's 222 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: been in a lot of meetings has seen people learn 223 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: how to abuse the process in order to get their 224 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: position to win by making everyone else too tired to 225 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: continue or to use up all of the space in 226 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: the room, or you know whatever. But I think that, yeah, 227 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: this idea that the rules that are used in your meeting, 228 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: I think that a very a good facilitator, which is 229 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: something that I tend to believe in for meetings, is 230 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: capable of explaining the process in such a way that 231 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: even when a lot of people come who are not 232 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: familiar with the process, they will leave familiar with the process. Yeah. 233 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, like to that sort of end, if you need 234 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: a like, okay, we need a written procedure thing, the 235 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: thing I would recommend is called Rusty's Rules of Order, 236 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 2: which is an unbelievably paired down version of Robert Rools 237 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: of Order that was like specifically developed to be used 238 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: not in like union circles, in activist circles. And it's 239 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: like the total PDF of it is twenty five pages. 240 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: That makes it sound way longer than it actually is. 241 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,199 Speaker 2: Like several of those pages are like a glossary, and 242 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: like the cover, it's very easy to read. It's easy 243 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: to understand if you have to use a like this 244 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: is a formalized procedure. Do Rusties, don't do Roberts, This 245 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: is just a I need to do this before we 246 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: say anything else, because a bunch of people are going 247 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 2: to push you to use this and it sucks. So 248 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: having gotten that out of the way, we can now 249 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 2: get into okay things from meetings. 250 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: I was supposed to make a joke about at the 251 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: top of all this. I'm sorry everyone. Everyone has been 252 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: waiting for me to make this joke. I'm certain, but mio, 253 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: which one of us is going to keep stack during 254 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: this meeting so that we know who can talk products 255 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: and services support this podcast? 256 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 2: Are gonna keep stack and we're gonna go to the 257 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: right the foot Now. 258 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: We are back, and I really just want to say, 259 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: as timekeeper, I'm a little bit upset about how much 260 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: time that those ads used during the meeting and if 261 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: we can not fucking damn it. 262 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 2: Okay, we will explain what a stack is and what 263 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 2: time is in a second. However, comm so things you 264 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 2: need to do at the very start of a meeting. 265 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: You need to take like two minutes to do this, 266 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: but you need to explain how the meeting fucking works, 267 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: and you need to assign everyone roles, and you can't 268 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: assume that everyone who is going to be in this 269 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: meeting understands how the rules work, like you cannot. And 270 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 2: there's something I've run into is like you can't assume 271 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: that everyone understands what your hand signals are, or even 272 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: just basic like everyone has been in a thing before 273 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: and understands what a stack is, right, you can't assume 274 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: that unless you know everyone in the room. And more 275 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 2: than that, like unless you know everyone's love experience in 276 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: the room and you've been in meetings with them before, Like, 277 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: you can't assume the level of knowledge that everyone has. 278 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: And I have watched these processes not work because people 279 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 2: just did that and then a bunch of people in 280 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 2: the room were like, what the fuck is going on? 281 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: So you need to at the start of the meeting 282 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: explain how the meeting is going to work, like at 283 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 2: least a little bit. It doesn't have to be super formal. 284 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: This can be like fucking two minutes of like we're 285 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 2: gonna have a stack blah blah blah blah blah. 286 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: And for anyone just say, you know what we're saying 287 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: right now, we'll explain stack. More. That is the order 288 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: in which people talk. It is a way of like 289 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: keeping track of the line of who's gonna talk when. 290 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm realizing this explanation is jumping around a little bit. 291 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: But you need to make sure that everyone understands how 292 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 2: the meeting is supposed to work, and you know, usually 293 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: that's really quick. Sometimes someone will just not know something 294 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: and then okay, you explain it to them and that's 295 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 2: like fine and chill, and like, I don't know. I 296 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: remember being a little tiny baby anarchist and like not 297 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: knowing anything and going to my first meeting and like 298 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 2: people were talking about restorative justice and I was like, Hi, 299 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: what's your storative justice. I'm like a little tiny child, 300 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: I don't know anything. And they explained it and it 301 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: was like chilling, good and you can just do this 302 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: and it helps people feel included and yeah. 303 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: Totally okay. 304 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 2: So general meeting facilitation things you need. You need one 305 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 2: an agenda. An agenda is what the fuck are you doing? 306 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 2: And generally speaking, secondarily, you want to try to have 307 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: time planned out because one of the one of the 308 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: failure modes of a meeting is the meeting goes for 309 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 2: fucking thirty hours and everyone's miserable. So you generally want 310 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: to have an agenda that has what you're going to 311 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: talk about and then kind of guidelines roughly for how 312 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: long you think it'll take to talk about the thing. 313 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 314 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: We'll get more into that in a second. Sometimes people 315 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 2: create the agenda beforehand. Sometimes you start you set the 316 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 2: agenda at the beginning of the meeting, but like you 317 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: do want an agenda so people know what you're doing, and. 318 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: It should be similar that everyone can see a whiteboard 319 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: or like I guess in a zoom meeting notes or 320 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: a dock that everyone has open. Yeah. 321 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, you want to make sure everyone has it, okay, 322 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: And this is the point where we need to talk 323 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: about roles. So part of the technology this right and 324 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: the stack is a big piece of technology to keep 325 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: track of who's talking. But a big part of what 326 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: the technology of this is is a bunch of roles 327 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: that you assign people and that ideally everyone rotates through 328 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: so you learn how to do all of them, and 329 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 2: so to prevent people from sort of concentrating power by 330 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 2: like monopolizing one role. So the first role we need 331 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: to talk about, and this is I don't know if 332 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: the big one is the right one, but this is 333 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: the one that I think people know kind of. I 334 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: don't know if intuitively understand is the right word, but 335 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: like this is the one that there are usually versions 336 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 2: of in a meeting, and a lot of those versions 337 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: are bad. 338 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: Is a facilitator? 339 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so okay my explanation of what a facilitator is, 340 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: and Margaret, I'm going to ask you for yours too, 341 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: because I don't know. So, as a facilitator, your job 342 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: is to like point to the agenda and go, okay, 343 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: we're talking about this. Your job is to move people 344 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: through discussions. Your job is to try to get people 345 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: to a consensus on what you're doing. And your job 346 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 2: is to stop people from giving speeches. And this is 347 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: I'm gonna take a little digression here, which is, Okay, 348 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 2: we've been talking about way's meetings fail, right. Number One, 349 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: no one can go to it. That's way meeting fails. Two, 350 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 2: you don't have an agenda and everyone it just goes 351 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 2: off the rails and no one has any idea what 352 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: you're supposed to be meeting about. Three, and this is 353 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: a huge one, is that one of the biggest ways 354 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 2: of meetings fail and I have seen this in every 355 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 2: single context I have ever worked in, is that someone 356 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: and it is usually a dude it's almost always a dude. 357 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: It cannot be a dude, but it's usually a dude 358 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 2: just keeps talking and keeps talking and keeps talking and 359 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: will not shut the fuck up, and nothing gets done 360 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: because the entire meeting is one hour of this guy 361 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: just yabbering. 362 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: Yep. 363 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: And one of your most important jobs as the facilitator, 364 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 2: and this is genuinely a huge part for social technology 365 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: of the structure of meetings is to make sure that 366 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: your meeting is not one person talking. Yeah, this is 367 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: why this exists. 368 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 369 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: And you know, if you want to get into the 370 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 2: sort of dire this right, if you do not stop 371 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: all of your meetings from being one annoying guy talking, 372 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: your projects will fail. 373 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: You must do this. 374 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,479 Speaker 2: This is the one thing here that is like, you 375 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: absolutely positively must get this guy to stop talking. 376 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: I think that the important thing to think about a 377 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: facilitator is that most people come from a background of 378 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 1: assumed authoritarian politics, assumed politics where someone is in charge. 379 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: Even our democracies are built around this idea that you 380 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: elect someone to tell you what to do. When we 381 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: talk about meetings, we are talking about building bottom up structures. 382 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: Even when we later I think will end up talking 383 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: maybe a different episode or something about larger structures you 384 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: can build up out of these sort of local assemblies 385 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 1: and meetings. The idea is that everyone is empowered, and 386 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: so because we're really used to this competitive decision making 387 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: around who is in charge, we struggle a little bit 388 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: adapting to egalitarian meetings and also to consensus isn't the 389 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: only way to make decisions, but people struggle with consensus 390 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: because they'll think of that at meaning one hundred percent 391 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: vote where everyone votes for the same thing, and that's 392 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: a mistake. And so we think of the facilitator accidentally 393 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,159 Speaker 1: as the leader, and they are a leader in the 394 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: sense of a whatever. You could use the word leader 395 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, and some of them are 396 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: positive and not authoritarian, and so in that context they 397 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: are leading people through the meeting. But they are absolutely 398 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 1: not only not the decision maker, they are less the 399 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: decision maker than everyone else. Choosing to be a facilitator 400 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: of a meeting is choosing to go in and say 401 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: I'm not actually even going to push for my side 402 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: unless you are in a like tight knit enough group 403 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: where everyone knows each other and everyone kind of knows oh, 404 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: in this group, Margaret's opinion is always going to be this, 405 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: and so and Soo's opinions always going to be this. 406 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: If you know people really well, you can kind of 407 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: still be both facilitator and a participant. But by and large, 408 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: when you are the facilitator, your job is to help 409 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: the decision form. It is to help take what people 410 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: are saying and say, Okay, this seems like what we're saying. 411 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: Is this the Is this the proposal? And not say 412 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: I think this is the proposal, but say is this 413 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: the proposal? And yeah. It is to keep people on track, 414 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: and every meeting is gonna have different I really like 415 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: a strong facilitator. I really like someone who's going to 416 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: shut me up. I really like someone who's like, yeah, 417 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: that's not what we're talking about right now. And it's 418 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: hard because your feelings get hurt, like especially for example, 419 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: someone says a joke and then someone else is a 420 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: joke and then you're the third person and you say 421 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: the joke too, and the facilitator's like, yeah, that's enough 422 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: of that. We got to keep going. You're the third 423 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: person who said the joke, and you're like, why am 424 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: I getting yelled at? And the other two people didn't Yeah, 425 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: and that's the wrong way to look at it. We're 426 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: not yelling at anyone. We're trying to keep things moving forward. 427 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: And you're absolutely right also about the people grandstanding. And 428 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: you know, a particular habit that men often have, especially 429 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: since men, is that they'll come in and be like, 430 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: they'll listen to what someone else says and then repeat 431 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: it louder and then be like yeah, yeah, right, and 432 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: as if it's their idea and they don't even realize 433 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: they're doing it. It's kind of cute. But there's a 434 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: lot of that you can learn about yourself by going 435 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 1: into these meetings and learning about your own habits and 436 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: what you've been and culturated to do. And it shouldn't 437 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: be about shaming people around this as long as people 438 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: are able to like kind of get called in and 439 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: listen to it. And one of the things that I 440 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: think when you teach the meeting, at the beginning of 441 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: the meeting, you also explain some of this social stuff 442 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: and you say, like, you know, we believe in a 443 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: step up, step back thing. If you're someone who generally 444 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: feels comfortable talking in large groups, we invite you to 445 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: step back a little bit, and if you're not someone 446 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: who generally feels comfortable expressing your opinion in groups, we 447 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,919 Speaker 1: invite you to step up. Do you know what also 448 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: needs to learn to step up? Is I actually think 449 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: we don't get enough advertising in our lives. I think 450 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: that the people who are afraid to take up space 451 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: are the people who pay a lot of money. Physical 452 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: block a physical block. All right, babe, isn't consensus. Here's 453 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: ads we are back. 454 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: I think this saucer, you know, as we've talked about 455 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: sort of in some way, in a lot of ways, 456 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 2: like how important the role the facilitator is. This is 457 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: a role you need to rotate because that is a role. 458 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 2: It's like those are skills that everyone needs. Like if 459 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: everyone knows, did you just do the hand I did? 460 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: I did? I don't know whether people still do it 461 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: metal hands versus twinkle fingers. 462 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: Sorry, okay, this is completely Unfortunately podcasting is an audio medium, 463 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 3: So all of you just missed me losing my mind 464 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: because Margaret, Margaret did one of my hand signs for agreements. 465 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: I was like, shit, God, damn it. Okay, we're talking 466 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: about meetings that just came naturally. 467 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 2: Well, well, we'll get the hand signed, but like you know, 468 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: you actually do you all of these things should be 469 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 2: road hitting and you should be teaching everyone to be 470 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: able to do all of the facilitation roles because a okay, 471 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 2: there's there's lots of reasons for this, right one. Facilitation 472 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: in particular can be kind of dangerous because there's a 473 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: real risk of someone who is facilitating deciding that they 474 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 2: are the leader and they're going to steer how everything 475 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 2: goes and they're going to make their decisions. And by 476 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 2: rotating that around, it becomes a lot easier to not 477 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 2: have that happen. And also, doing a role makes you 478 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: a more active participant in the meeting. A lot of 479 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: times it depends on the role obviously, but like it's 480 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: a way to get people to keep everyone. 481 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: Engaged in a thing. That's a good point. Thank you. This. 482 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 2: I stole this from my friend who is going to 483 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: remain nameless. But if you're out there, I love you. 484 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 1: Your friend's name is nameless, I understand. Yeah, friends saying 485 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: this the nameless child to somewhere there's someone whose name 486 00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: is the whole last kid and anyway whatever, anyway, okay, okay, yeah, 487 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: But the other thing about it, right is the more 488 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: everyone knows about these skills, the more effective of a participants, 489 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: and the more effective you can be making decisions in 490 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: the meeting. 491 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 2: Like that, the more everyone understands how the process works 492 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: and knows how to do it and knows how to 493 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 2: because like being in a meeting and being in community 494 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: with other people and making decisions together is a skill, 495 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: and we don't have it. There's this great David Graeber, 496 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: the anthroologist, David Graeber, who actually spent a lot of 497 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: time like writing about these meetings in a way that 498 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: doesn't usually happen. 499 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: As like as as an anthropologist. 500 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, as an anthropologist, right, because he was both 501 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 2: both an activist and an anthropologist. And he has this 502 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 2: great line where he says Americans are great at communism 503 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: and terrible at topocracy, which is that they're really really 504 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: good at like doing things each according to their need 505 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,360 Speaker 2: and from each according through ability. Like if you try 506 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: to organize a barbecue, everyone can do the things through 507 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 2: the barbecue, but no one knows how to make decisions together, 508 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 2: because that's a skill. And the more you're rotating through 509 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: all the roles and the more you understand how everything works, 510 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: the more you understand, you know, how to do the 511 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: facilitation stuff of like getting everyone to figure out what 512 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 2: the thing that they want is and how to express 513 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 2: that and how to like how to work together. The 514 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 2: more you understand that as like a person who's not facilitating, 515 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 2: the more you can understand like how to actually do democracy. 516 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it rules. And it's also the fact that like, 517 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: if you are indispensable to your group, you've actually failed 518 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: your group. Yeah, especially when you're talking about stuff like activism, 519 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: that has a certain risk. If you are the only 520 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: medic in your affinity group, that is a problem because 521 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: if you get arrested, now there's no medic. If you're 522 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: the only facilitator who is a very skilled facilitator, what 523 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: happens when you're sick or in jail and you all 524 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,239 Speaker 1: have a very intense meeting that you have to do, 525 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,640 Speaker 1: and you need a skilled facilitator. Not that everyone needs 526 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: to be equal in all skills within in a given group, 527 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 1: but you need to learn to If you are very 528 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: good at something, your job is to make someone else 529 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 1: very good at it too. 530 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: That's the thing both for meetings on the way it 531 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 2: was explained, same me, and this is a more kind 532 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: of I don't know what term be't used for, but 533 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 2: it was taught to me as your job is to 534 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 2: organize yourself. 535 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: Out of a job. Yeah, totally, okay, So. 536 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: We're going to move on to the second roll, which 537 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: is the stack taker. So okay, the stack. This when 538 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 2: I first started talking about this is as a social technology, 539 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 2: the thing I specifically meant was the stack, and then 540 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 2: eventually I was like, no, it's actually the whole process is. 541 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 2: But the stack very very simple invention, but if you 542 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 2: don't have it, it's a disaster. The stack, as we 543 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 2: said before, is just literally a list of names of 544 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: who's going to talk in what order. Someone raises their hand, 545 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 2: they could add to the stack. 546 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: Yep. 547 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: That is very simple. It is also absolutely crucial to 548 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: making sure a meeting runs at all. Most groups tend 549 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: to use some variation of what's called a progressive stack, 550 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: where you know, this is part of we were talking 551 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 2: about earlier, like step forward and step back, But when 552 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: you're compiling a stack, you want to have the people 553 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: who speak less in front m M. And this works 554 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: sort of in two ways, right. One is it's okay, 555 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 2: so if there's someone who's not like a cis white dude, 556 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 2: and who is trying to say something, you probably want 557 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 2: them to say something because they are less likely to 558 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: be the one who says something. Yeah, just because of 559 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: the way that sort of whiteness is structure, because of 560 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: the way that like masculinity structure, because of the way 561 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 2: that these things work. So you want to give opportunities 562 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 2: to speak to people who like don't usually get heard. 563 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 2: And then also if someone just like hasn't been talking 564 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 2: in a meeting and they want to say something, and 565 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 2: that's also a part of the sort of facilitation. And 566 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 2: sometimes I know this is the thing that like a 567 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: role that I've seen passed out between a bunch of 568 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: different roles, and I guess everyone kind of has a 569 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,440 Speaker 2: responsibility to do this. But if there's someone in a 570 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 2: meeting who has not been saying anything, it's generally a 571 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: good idea to be like, hey, are you okay? And 572 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: also like more important lead to some extent than there 573 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: are you okay? Of like what do you think about this? 574 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, although I do think that there's a little bit 575 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: of a like some people don't want to specifically be 576 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: called on in that way, and so that's kind of 577 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: a like learning to read the room skill definitely about 578 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: when you want to encourage people to step up versus 579 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: other people are like, no, I don't have anything particular 580 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: to say, and I don't want to get, you know, 581 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: singled out. I think that in smaller meetings sometimes the 582 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: facilitator can keep stack. Larger meetings, that's a terrible plan. Yeah, 583 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: it's large meetings. You need to you can't. Yeah, I've 584 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: been put to be during it. Yeah, because you need 585 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: someone keeping track of who's raising their hands when and 586 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,440 Speaker 1: things like that. Sometimes you're actually even writing the stack 587 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: on a whiteboard so people can see yeah, yeah, you 588 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: look a piece of paper. Yeah. I have been in 589 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: meetings that sort of self facilitate fairly effectively in smaller groups, 590 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 1: where a thing that people can do is if they 591 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: have a thing they want to say, they hold up 592 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: one finger and they keep that finger up, and if 593 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: someone else is something that they want to say, they 594 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: put up two fingers, and then if someone else is 595 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: something they want to say, they put up three fingers. 596 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: And so you can have this method by which people 597 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: track their own stack. But this is a small group thing. 598 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: This is not a and this is a people who 599 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: know each other and know how to do the balancing 600 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: that we're talking about about making sure everyone gets heard. 601 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think part of this also it's important 602 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 2: to remember, is like this is like one oh one. 603 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sorry, as an advanced scale. 604 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 2: Kind of And I'm introducing some things that are probably 605 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: more advanced than one on one, like like like they like, okay, 606 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 2: figuring out why someone is uncomfortable talking on a like 607 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 2: this person wants to talk, doesn't feel comfortable to and 608 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: if you ask them, they will say something. And this 609 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: person doesn't feel comfortable talking because they don't want to talk. 610 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 2: That's kind of a more advanced thing. Fair enough, I 611 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 2: guess we should talk about hand gestures here, which is 612 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 2: that okay, over the course of these beings one of 613 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: over the course of like movements, one of the things 614 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 2: that is built up is hand gestures because they can 615 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 2: be a very effective way of, you know, someone expressing 616 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: something without having to talk over someone else. This is 617 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, this is the one on one. I'm 618 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: not going to teach hand gestures because everyone has different ones, 619 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: and there are some that are pretty universal. But like 620 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 2: the number of different gestures I've seen for like direct 621 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 2: response mm hmm and ship like it's the thing that 622 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 2: like like hand gestures can work and can be really 623 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 2: fish Yeah. 624 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: See you're doing one of the head you're doing one 625 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: of the. 626 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: Make a triangle your hands. Fuck, I forgot about point 627 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: a process. Oh no, well so there's all of this 628 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: very very complicated stuff. It's not that complicated, but like, 629 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: like point up process sucks like that, she's actually complicated. 630 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: I'm actually derailing again. I'm so sorry. This is an example. 631 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: If there was a facilitator in this call, they would 632 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: be making me shut up. That's what's happening. Yeah, no, 633 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: but but but this is actually like this this this 634 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: is this is the one time I've ever wished there 635 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: was like videos you could see the hand gestures because 636 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 2: like the thing about this, right is once you are 637 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: good at meetings, and like if you have people who 638 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: do this and you talk about what the hand gesters 639 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 2: are beforehand, that's also important. You can't even if if 640 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: you're very good at meetings and you're still listening to 641 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: this episode for some reason. 642 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know it. 643 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 2: It's a good episode, but like, you can't assume that 644 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 2: everyone knows what your hand gestures are. Yeah, and sometimes 645 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: people have different hand gestures for different things. Sometimes you 646 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: have contextual hand gestures for like like there are like okay, 647 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 2: like you're if you are trying to meet in the dark. Yeah, 648 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 2: your your hand gestures don't work, right. This is also 649 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 2: stolen from another friend, right, Like sometimes you need to 650 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 2: use snaps for that because so that you can hear, right. 651 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: Like what all of this is to say that, like 652 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 2: the stuff with hand gestures, it can make your meetings 653 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: a lot more effective. This is the thing you can 654 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 2: do if everyone in the group understands how they work. 655 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: I'm not going to be like teaching you sets of 656 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: hand gestures here because I can't guarantee that any gesture 657 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 2: I teach you will be the one that people use. 658 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,040 Speaker 1: Can I can? I though, like speed run the concepts 659 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: of some of them, because I think they are useful 660 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: to understand. Yeah. Yeah, because it's hard to imagine when 661 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: you imagine meetings. I think about this a lots. I 662 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,719 Speaker 1: write meetings into fiction, which is a very hard thing 663 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: to do and make them entertaining because they're also hard 664 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: to be entertained and by when you're in them, unless 665 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: they're contentious. But there are certain things that you learn 666 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: derail meetings. And there are ways in which by using 667 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: hand gestures you can avoid having more people speak. And 668 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: the single most important and common one is a way 669 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: of saying I agree, and so that way people when 670 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: they really want to say something but they're not on 671 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: stack and they get really frustrated, they can do that 672 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: hand gesture, which you know is very easy to make 673 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: fun of. You know, when I was coming up, it 674 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: was twinkle fingers, where you waggle your fingers, and then 675 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: we were like punk, so we did metal fingers instead, 676 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: which was literally the same thing but reverse. It's kind 677 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: of like the look that you do when you like, 678 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: really like music, and it's actually sort of like mimicking 679 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: playing a guitar. And so that's a very important concept. 680 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: And sometimes people use snaps, although sometimes people prefer non 681 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: audio and other people prefer audio. 682 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and and and so's that's likely and that's 683 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 2: that's posture. 684 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: While I was talking about like. 685 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: Like that's that's dependent on who's in the room and 686 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: what the room is, and. 687 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: Like, but I think that a I agree without needing 688 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: to say anything is essential. Yeah, Yeah, that's a good one. 689 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: Other ones to just know of is that there are 690 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: things like people will say like, please move this along. 691 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: It's a way of saying, hey, facilitator, please shut this 692 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: person up usually or can we talk about something else. 693 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: There's ones that are direct response, which is saying I 694 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: would like to jump stack because this person has just 695 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: insulted the honor of my family or whatever, and it's 696 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: up to the facilitator to decide whether to do these. 697 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: Another one is point of process, which is saying like, hey, 698 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: I actually don't want to talk about the thing we're 699 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: talking about. I want to talk about how the meeting 700 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: is going. Meetings get real meta and it's real frustrating anyway, 701 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: So it's worth knowing that this is part of the technology. 702 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: It seems cringey from the outside, but like are other options. 703 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean, there are other technologies about decision making that 704 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: people have developed, but like actually living democratic lives in 705 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: which we all have a say in our decisions sometimes 706 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: means that we go to meetings and we can actually 707 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: kind of learn to I'm talking shit on meetings, but 708 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: that's Meetings are also a ways to get to know 709 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: your friends and express yourself and get things done. 710 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, as much I've been talking about being boring, 711 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 2: like I've had things that were technically organizing meetings that 712 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 2: were like some of the most transformational experiences in my 713 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: life totally because me and a bunch of people who 714 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: you know, a bunch of people are really close to me, 715 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 2: like came together and we figured out how to do something, 716 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,719 Speaker 2: and there is a beauty there that is and this 717 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: is personal to why it's hard to talk about these things, 718 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: right because like the technical process of it, like the 719 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: technical description of what we're saying, is at the same 720 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: time being used to do something that can only be 721 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 2: described instead of poetic terms. Yeah, Like, the the actual 722 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: experience of like you and a bunch of other people 723 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: coming together to do something and figure out how to 724 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: do it and fucking doing it is it is a 725 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 2: transcendent act of creation. 726 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 727 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: And these are like you know, yeah, like it doesn't 728 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 2: like the fucking hammers and shovels and like fucking slide 729 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 2: rules that you use to construct something don't look very 730 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 2: pretty and then at the end of it, you've built 731 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: something together and it's beautiful. 732 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's it's the other side of the coin 733 00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: of the first time you watch the police run away 734 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: from you. Yeah, it is a way of coming together 735 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: with other people to accomplish something and make something powerful 736 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: is meetings. And it is also it's interesting because we 737 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: talk about how men will often take up too much 738 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: space in meetings. This is not a universal thing anytime 739 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: we say this kind of thing, but it is actually 740 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: often feminized labor because it's this invisibilized labor that happens 741 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: behind the scenes that is not as sexy, right and 742 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: is about just actually hearing people out. It is like 743 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: conflict resolution speed run. Anyway, I accidentally went off on 744 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: the meta of meetings also. 745 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: But no, it's good. Well, and I think there's an 746 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 2: important thing here too, because like we're talking about the 747 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 2: politics of like meetings themselves, right of like the you know, 748 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: the actual political angle of what it means to have 749 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: a democracy where what democracy means you make decisions together. Yeah, 750 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 2: and this is something There's also a very important actual 751 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 2: procedural meeting note here, which is that one of the 752 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 2: things you will learn over the course of doing meeting 753 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: is that a lot of times people wage battles over 754 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: the content of political ideology in the form of fighting 755 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 2: over how a meeting works. Yeah, totally, And you can 756 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 2: see this everywhere from like your fucking local organizing meeting 757 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: and people yelling about who's on stack or whatever all 758 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,879 Speaker 2: the way up to like, you know, when like when 759 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 2: like the Democrats are saying that, like like in Congress 760 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 2: that like the parliament the budget parliamentarian won't let them 761 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: like raise the minimum wage. 762 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: That's what they're doing. 763 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 2: They're using an argument over procedure to like disguise the 764 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 2: fact that what they're really arguing about is like it 765 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 2: is an actual political argument. Yeah, but this is also 766 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 2: a thing where like the way you structure a meeting 767 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: is political. It doesn't seem like it, right, But you 768 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: can have a meeting where, you know, it's like the 769 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 2: fucking plenipotentiary meeting of like the Executive Committee of I 770 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 2: don't know, the People's Congress, the Chinese Companies Party or whatever. 771 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: Those are not the right words. I'm on five hours 772 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: of sleep. 773 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 2: But you can have a meeting where it's like, yeah, 774 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 2: the way the meeting works is one guy stands out 775 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 2: there and he gives a speech and he tells everyone 776 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 2: what to say, and then everyone votes yes. Yeah, that's 777 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 2: the way you can do a meeting, right, And that's political, 778 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: and it fucking sucks, and We're trying to teach you 779 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 2: how to do a meeting where you know, we do democracy, 780 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: where everyone comes together and we like do a thing. Yeah, 781 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,799 Speaker 2: and we will get to more roles next week. This 782 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: was originally planned to be one episode. It is not 783 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 2: one episode. It is now two episodes. But the upside 784 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: is that we solved a bunch of the fundamental logistical 785 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 2: problems about how to build a free society. So stay 786 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: tuned for that, stay tuned for more roles you want 787 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 2: in your meetings. And yeah, it's been It can happen here, 788 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,239 Speaker 2: and thank you Mark for coming on the show. 789 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,240 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 790 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 791 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 2: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 792 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 793 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 2: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here 794 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 2: listed directly, an episode descripts. 795 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,