WEBVTT - The Real Killer Season 2: Ep. 3, Who Is Keith LaMar? 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:07.680 A morning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.959 that may be disturbing to some listeners. I was charged 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.360 with nine counts of aggravated murder. Almost one year after 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:21.040 the April nineteen ninety three Lucasville Uprising, Keith Lamar twenty 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.840 five learns he's been indicted by a grand jury for 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:29.160 the deaths of five men. I was shocked that it came. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.400 It was about nine to ten of them, and it 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:35.120 came on ceremony backs to me. The authority and the 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:39.040 huttered up around my sale and hand me its document 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.519 by you know, four or five inches thick, and you know, 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.240 and it's like Keith Lamar, you know, so the whole 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:48.120 range could hear and everything, you know, And I read 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.920 just enough to see the nine counts, and I just 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:54.400 kind of lost my ship. But yeah, this disbelief, shock 0:00:55.080 --> 0:01:01.960 bewildered compus in denial in the Angle Game, in the 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:15.680 Angler Stay, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer? 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:29.280 Episode three? Who is Keith Lamar? It's Friday morning. I'm 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:39.920 heading out to go see Keith, starting route to Ohio 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:53.320 State Penitentiary. My stomach hurts, My stomach hurts. I don't 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:58.720 feel good, but I'm looking forward to meeting Keith in person. 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.720 It's just the whole prisoned aspect of it that's quite daunting. 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.359 At the next top sign, turn night. The destination is 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:22.480 on your right. Ohio State Penitentiary. Aved Okay, I'm here. 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.440 I turned off the big microphone because I'm afraid of 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.880 getting in trouble. They have cameras everywhere I am about 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:33.600 to go into the prison. Damn, it's a scary looking place. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:41.760 As a producer, I've been inside many prisons, but this 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:46.520 time it's different, and I'm surprised how nervous I am 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.560 from the outside. The Ohio State Penitentiary, a supermax prison, 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.240 which I've also heard people call a super deprivation prison, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.839 is like no prison I've ever seen before. It's an 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:03.920 absolute fortress. I walk from the parking lot to a small, 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:10.920 outdoor steel cage. I'm buzzed in. The door slams behind me. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.160 I'm essentially locked in that cage until they let me out. 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.160 I will not be allowed to record my meeting with Keith. 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.040 I'm not even allowed to bring in pen and paper. 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.600 Once I get through security, I take an elevator to 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.800 the visiting room. While I wait I talk with a 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:34.520 corrections officer. I'm sure his body camera is recording me 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.119 as I answer all of his questions about why I'm 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:41.080 there and how I know Keith. About twenty minutes later, 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:47.120 Keith appears, handcuffed and escorted by two officers. He walks 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:51.240 into his side of our glass and metal enclosed visitors room, 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.520 Room Number sixteen. The officer's uncuff Keith through a hole 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.840 in the door, then leave. Keith reaches through the small 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.520 opening in the glass that separates us to shake my 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:08.040 hand and we say our first in person hellos. Keith 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:13.280 is tall, like six three and fit. He's bald, clean shaven, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.480 and has a salt and pepper short mustache and goatee. 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.279 He's wearing a blue short sleeved shirt over a navy 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:25.080 long sleeved thermal shirt, navy pants, and brown boots, and 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.760 he has black framed glasses. Also, he has a nice 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.840 smile and an infectious laugh. Even though we've talked more 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.320 than six hours up until this point, meeting in person 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:40.760 could be weird, but it's not. I'm at ease with 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.640 him right off the bat. We have coffee and Keith 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:47.159 eats a chicken sandwich and a Caesar salad that I 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:51.000 buy from the vending machines. I'm way too wound up 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:55.000 to eat. We talk for about three and a half hours, 0:04:55.040 --> 0:04:58.599 mostly about his case. I share with him a little 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:02.359 bit about my background. He shares some of his with me. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:05.599 I tell him about Melissa and Rodney from our first 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.920 season and why I wanted to tell their story, and 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:11.559 we laugh about the one guard who tried to trick 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.599 me into leaving him the prepaid debit card I put 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.120 money on for my visit with Keith. There's this one 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.200 really awkward moment when we're leaving. He's facing me being 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.880 cuffed by officers, and I'm not sure if I should 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.039 leave or wait for him to leave first, so I 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.200 start backing up doing this weird sort of stuttard goodbye dance. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.960 Keith laughs and tells me it's okay to go, so 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:38.880 I do. When I get back to the car, I 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:46.160 immediately turn on the microphone. I'm pretty flustered. Okay, oh 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:52.680 my god, I just got out of the prison. Super Max, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:06:01.960 absolutely terrifying place. The level of secure purity is crazy, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.640 but the place it's like, I mean, the time with 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:13.280 Keith was so easy, you almost forget you know, and 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:18.560 he even said it's like it's really really bad in 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:24.360 parts of the prison. What else, Let's see. He was 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:31.599 funny and thoughtful, and it was a real conversation. I 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.400 mean it was hours and hours. It feel like stuff 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:36.720 is going to come to me when I get back 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.760 to my hotel. I remember something interesting, Keith said, so 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.320 I turned the mic back on. He thinks that he 0:06:44.480 --> 0:06:49.159 may know of a different motive for why the four 0:06:49.400 --> 0:06:53.080 in L six were killed, and he wants me to 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:59.039 look into it. Remember, Keith's been accused of leading a 0:06:59.160 --> 0:07:03.240 death squad in the early hours of the uprising, supposedly 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.640 going sell to sell in L six, killing four snitches 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.760 who had been locked up for their own protection. But 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:14.760 he says not so fast. Keith wonders whether those alleged 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:19.320 snitches were snitches at all. Maybe they were murdered because 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:23.520 they were actually child molesters or rapists, the most hated 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:28.280 in the prison population, or maybe the state decided to 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.560 label the victims snitches so they would appear more sympathetic 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:34.960 to a jury. I don't know if there's anything to this, 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:39.040 but I'm going to look into it regardless. In the meantime, 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.480 I learned from Keith on our next call. My exit 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:52.600 that day looked as awkward as it felt hopefully for 0:07:52.720 --> 0:07:55.560 one hundred years. Like, you know, that was like a movie, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:59.920 you know, like that was going off to the arm 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:09.080 me going apply the war and yeah, what do most 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:23.240 people do? Just walk away? They say, you know, I don't. Yeah. Yeah, 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:30.040 it was nice. It was a really nice Yeah, it 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.760 was a nice visit. And it's a confusing feeling I 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.640 still can't shake. I mean, how can this seemingly gracious 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.800 and kind man be capable of the vicious murders he's 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.160 been accused of? And look, I've worked in true crime 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.400 long enough to know that some of the most infamous 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.800 killers are charming as hell. But we as humans want 0:08:50.840 --> 0:08:55.960 to believe the best in people, right, I know I do. Anyway, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.360 after that visit with Keith, the next day, I head 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:05.200 out to meet with someone else. Starting route to Athens, 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:09.680 proceed to Columbus Road and turn left. I drive three 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.080 plus hours to Athens, Ohio to meet Herman Carson, one 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:19.000 half of Keith's trial attorney team. The destination is on 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:23.760 your left. Herman and I meet in a conference room 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:29.000 at one of the local hotels right around checkout time. Yeah, 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.000 there's the vacuum. Yep. How's it killing your recording? It's 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:37.280 killing it. Herman Carson, a father of three daughters and 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.600 grandfather of seven, was a defense attorney for almost twenty 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.520 nine years. Why did you want to become an attorney? 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.319 What about the law intrigued you or excited you. I 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.720 don't know that any of it excited me. I see 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.440 it and still see it as a helping profession. Herman 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.000 was also the head of the local Public Defender's office 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.880 under the director of a ten county branch for the 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.079 Office of the Ohio Public Defender before retiring in twenty nineteen. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.079 Primarily timed my retirement to being able to travel to 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.040 Kentucky to watch my two oldest grandsons play soccer. The 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:18.960 other half of Keith's trial attorney team is k Robert Toy, 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.319 also from Athens. I speak with him separately over zoom. 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:27.080 What does the case stand for? Kung Fu? Oh, that's 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:31.040 a joke. That stands for Carrie k r r Y. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.800 Now that's a female's name. So when I grew up 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.800 it was a name my parents like. But when I 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.840 went with my family, I'm Carrie. But when I jerked around. 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.920 It's kung fu. In nineteen ninety four, Bob and Herman 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.520 will team up, which is new territory for them. In 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:53.040 the ten years before that, they faced off in the courtroom, 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.240 Herman as a defense attorney and Bob as a prosecutor. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.000 I was more a persecutor than I was a prosecutor. 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:05.319 You were tough, to say the least. Oh. Yeah. After 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.400 spending fourteen years as a prosecuting attorney, Bob was appointed 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.560 as the Athens County prosecutor in the summer of nineteen 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.960 ninety two. Later that year, he ran for public office, 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:20.000 but narrowly lost, so he opened up his private practice. 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:25.120 The judge who is assigned to Keith's case, Judge Fred Crowe, 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.000 knows Bob professionally and asks him if he'll represent Keith. 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.199 Bob says yes, then asks Herman to be his co consul. 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:38.200 Their first order of business is to meet with their client. Well, 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.000 I told Bob, I said, you know, I said, this 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.160 may not go very well. I said, because we're going 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.960 to be telling mister lamar Hi. I were two white 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.560 guys that the government has sent to help you, I said, 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.480 And I don't think it'll go over very well. We'll 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:56.320 see Herman isn't wrong. Keith is leery of them both, 0:11:56.960 --> 0:12:00.440 I mean Herman's carlson. My initial impression was that he 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.199 was just because you look like a typical redneck at 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:08.640 the handlebar. Must ask the cowboy, must ask Robertian know 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.920 struck me as one of those slippery types. That's hardly 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:17.720 a vote of confidence. But they're all he's got. Unfortunately, 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:23.720 neither Herman nor Bob feel optimistic about the case. Here's Herman. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.200 When they dealt the cards, we didn't get any good ones. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:33.960 It's a highly publicized situation. The only positive thing you 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.920 could say is at least they didn't charging with participating 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:40.600 in the killing of the correctional officer. That was the 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.920 only plus I could think of. At least we're not 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.880 charged with that. But that's yeah, it was pretty much 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.480 stacked against you. The prosecutors offered him what we thought 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.880 was a fantastic deal, which would be two murders to 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.760 be concurrent with the murder he was already doing. And 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.960 I know my conversation with Keith was, Keith, hey, if 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.800 we got a parking ticket out here when we come 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.760 to visit you, our penalty would be worse than yours. 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.480 And you know, he stood up and he's a stand 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.720 up guy, and he says, no, I'm not going to 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:30.560 because I did not do it. Herman Carson and Bob 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.680 Toy will be representing Keith when he goes on trial. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.840 What physical evidence did they have against Keith? Lamar zero. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:47.520 They had zero physical evidence. Five brutal killings, just nothing. 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.200 So if there's no physical evidence tying Keith to the 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.000 crimes he's been charged with, how did he end up here? 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:04.800 Here's Herman. My belief is that Keith in a small 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:08.960 core group pardon my language, but when they were approached 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:15.400 in the investigation, they said, fuck you, we're not talking. 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.560 It don't matter what we know, we're not doing it. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.920 And from there it was like, Okay, I'll put this 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:29.440 on somebody. You're going to be the target, targeted or not. 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.840 What the state has in their arsenal are those interviews 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.560 conducted by the Ohio State Highway Patrol with prisoners who, 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:42.160 unlike Keith, did cooperate, and in those interviews, several of 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.360 them eventually point the finger at Keith and name him 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:49.760 as the quote leader of the death squad. On the surface, 0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.360 it doesn't look great for Bob and Herman's defense, but 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:57.280 their preparation for trial isn't just about sifting through whatever 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.560 evidence there may or may not be. The also need 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:05.240 to learn more about Keith. Here's Hermann. I want a 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.400 lot of times to see Keith by myself, to get 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.680 to know him, and to get to know his background. 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.000 I mean, you know, he was out on his own 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.160 when he's fifteen or sixteen, yet an apartment in the 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:22.960 projects was dealing drugs and more like the serious crime 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.160 that sends Keith at age nineteen to prison in the 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:30.760 first place. But to understand how Keith got there, you 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:35.520 first have to understand where he comes from. By the way, 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.800 Keith's audio coming up isn't great. Keith believes that from 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:41.960 time to time people at the prison will listen in 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.080 and purposely mess with the phone lines or interrupt the 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:49.440 Wi Fi. There's no way of knowing if that's true 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.800 or not. Let's talk about like early stuff. Can you 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.440 tell me a little bit about your childhood? Yeah. I 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.280 was born in nineteen sixty nine May thirty, Flush, nineteen 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.320 sixty nine to a single mother, a third of four kids. 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:08.360 My older brother Nelson, the second oldest brother, Blair, who 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.200 died when I was when he was eight years old 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:16.200 leukemia being missing myself. And then I have a younger sister, Princess, 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.920 who grew up in this place called Village, my enclave 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.400 on the east side of Cleveland, made up of working 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.720 class people who were working for the most part, and 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:32.480 the steel meals in factory that was adjacent to our community. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:37.240 My grandfather worked at this place called Republic Steal bought 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.680 his own house for twelve thousand dollars in nineteen sixty 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.640 from what I understand, And so yeah, that was our 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.600 home here in this little neighborhood. And it was a 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.240 community where, you know, everybody knew each other, just a small, 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.160 tight knit neighborhood. And I stayed there too. I was 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.800 around I would say, nine years old. You know. By then, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.120 my mother had been every four a few years to 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:05.960 this man named Larry Morris, my stepdad. Describe your mom 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.480 for me in those early years. My mom, whose name 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.600 is Katherine Lamar, she was just, you know, a sweet 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:17.240 woman and the woman you know, but you know that 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:23.280 tenderness was something that she doled out and and um 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:28.240 in pieces, you know. So you know, one time in particular, 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:30.119 I was around nine or ten years old. I was 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.000 sick and stayed home from school. Her and I watched 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.040 this movie called Sparkle was Dinah Ross, and we watched 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.840 it over and over. We had a few, you know, 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:43.359 experiences along those lines. She wasn't like a terrible person, 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:48.399 she just was terribly trouble. I remember my earliest memories 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.040 of my mother. She was always in some form or 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:56.000 another intoxicated. She was always on you know, various peals, 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:01.639 sleeping peals, diet pills, pay a little. He says he 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.800 didn't learn a lot of this until after his mother 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:07.920 passed away in twenty fourteen, but he does remember one 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:13.719 early and awful memory quite clearly. In fact, you know, 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.119 when I was around five, four or five years old, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:21.840 we live in this real stuffy, King Kennedy housing projects. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.400 And one night, you know, I came to I heard 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.080 somebody knocking on the door, and I went to open it. 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:30.800 You know, the guy bribed me, slid some money under 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:32.600 the bottom of the door, and I opened the door, 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.960 released the latch, and this man ended up raping my 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:42.040 mom that night. M Yeah, and you know, um, and 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.520 several days after that, this man was killed by one 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:48.000 of my mother's boyfriends. And you know, his body was 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:52.760 blind beneath my beardroom window. And I'm, you know, four 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.080 or five years old, and I you know, we call 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.160 somebody standing behind me and asked, look at what he did. 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:02.600 Keith is told he is the reason that man was dead. 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:06.480 How does a child that young even process something like that? 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:19.200 How can it not leave a lasting effect? Around age nine, Keith, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.080 his mom, stepdad Larry, and siblings move away from his 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.960 grandparents in the village. Keith says, that's when the real 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:31.560 struggles begin. I'm growing up with the lights being cut off, 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.840 the heat being cut off. We grew up, you know, 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:37.760 going through parsal. We didn't have food. And it's around 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:42.080 this time Keith meets a new friend, Sherman Whaley. Even 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:45.880 though their homes aren't far in proximity, their lives are 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:50.200 worlds apart. Focus parentsly are together lived and like this 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:55.119 wife ticket sense type situation going on. And somehow we 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.199 became friends in the sixth grades, best friends because he 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:01.560 was kind of exercised too, because he was short. I 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:05.119 was out sad because I was dirty, and so you know, 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:08.520 he and I became Queans, short and dirty, you know, 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:13.680 and we hung at the other every day. His mother 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:15.920 became like my said logant mother, and I spent the 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:20.840 night over the house quite a bit. We did everything together, 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.800 you know. He would ride his bike to our house 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:29.480 pretty much every day. That's Sherman Whaley today. He's a 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.600 park police officer for Cleveland Metroparks and a married father 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.080 of four daughters. We played on the same baseball team, 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.439 so my mom would go pick him up and he 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.440 would spend the night. She would, you know, make us breakfast, 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.879 and you know, sometimes she would wash his clothes. I 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:51.199 remember he had such lovely manners. He never walked in 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:54.080 my home that he didn't speak. High, mister Whaley, High 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:58.600 missus Whaley, how were you? That's Carmen Whaley, Sherman's mother, 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:03.080 also a doting grandmother, writer of poetry and short stories, 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.640 and honestly one of the sweetest women I've ever met. 0:21:08.480 --> 0:21:11.600 And I just remember them always laughing. They were always 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:16.199 happy together, and they played well together. He didn't have 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:19.439 a mean bone in his body. I mean, he was 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:24.280 just the type of kid that was just radiated happiness, 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.840 and I just enjoyed having him in my home. We 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.359 used to put hot dogs and hamburgers on the girl 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.480 when he'd be here, and I had fruit, bananas and 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:40.240 strawberries and cherries and whatnot and bags of chips. He 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:48.280 ate good. Yeah. I always took Keith home, and I 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.800 always there was always a feeling of sadness when I 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:57.360 felt sad when I dropped him off. I don't know, 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.639 it was just there that I felt. You just know 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:06.560 that things aren't the way they really should be. You 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.359 just have that inner feeling, that innate feeling, because because 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.320 when you're a mother, you just know certain things. And 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.679 if I could have nurtured him for a long time, 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:18.360 I would have done it. But he had a mother, 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.160 you know what I mean, And he had a family 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.120 and home and whatnot, so you know, I had to 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:32.880 stay within my parameters and whatnot. One of the most 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:37.240 dominating and traumatizing figures in Keith's family is his stepfather, 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:42.119 Larry Morris. He passed away in the late nineties. So 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.639 tell me some of your earliest memories of Lariot. He 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:48.320 was a musician, he was a drummer, He was from 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:54.800 New Orleans. He was working, you know, blue collar type person. 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.480 But in terms of his personality and his sensibility, there 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:02.320 was a lot of mental physical abuse. Do you remember 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:06.119 the first time Larry you Now, it seemed like it 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:10.959 just you know, Um always was present, and you know, 0:23:11.240 --> 0:23:17.919 the beatings were so rampant and arbitrary in my household 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:23.080 that you know, I really kind of developed was the 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:27.919 kind of hyper visionlanth Um young person, because I didn't 0:23:27.960 --> 0:23:32.679 know what would result in me being beaten. You know, 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:35.680 I was playing football with one of my neighbors who 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:38.359 had asthma, and I was running drills because I was 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.159 a quarter back and he had an asthma attack, and 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.639 somehow I was blamed for that and it was beaten 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.560 to the point, you know where it was it crossed 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.600 over to like a major assault. The bell buckle struck 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:53.119 me on the right side of my face and I 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.359 can't with the mark even to this day. It wasn't 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.960 even outraged, It was just shock. You know that you 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.840 can be just walking along and all of a sudden 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:05.800 a trapdoor offense and you just, you know, in a 0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:10.160 different place. What did your mom do or say when 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:13.840 Larry would hit you? I mean, sadly, she was the 0:24:13.880 --> 0:24:16.600 one who kind of set it up, you know, going 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:18.280 in the room away on your father to come home, 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.160 and so I can hear the car when they pull 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:22.680 up in the driveway, to hear the keys turning in 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.200 the door, and I can hear him, you know, mumbling 0:24:26.280 --> 0:24:28.520 with my mother, and I can hear him taking his 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:30.800 belt off. I can hear all that, you know what 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:35.280 I mean. Even right now, the only way he feels 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:37.720 he can fight back against his stepdad is through the 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:42.360 one thing that matters to him, my stepfather. He loved football. 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:45.720 He was a fanatic and playing you know, football, being 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.320 a star athlete, you know, seemed to you know, give 0:24:49.400 --> 0:24:52.520 him something to be proud of, at least doing that 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:55.840 particular football season, and that, you know, of course made 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.320 me happy. You know, when I was twelve thirteen years old, 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:03.560 when the beatings, you know, kind of increase in intensity team, 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.639 I quit football to kind of punish him. And I 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:10.560 think that, you know, was probably one of the biggest 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.800 mistakes that I made in my life in terms of 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.159 being able to go to college, being able you know, 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.560 you know, to stay out of trouble. But yeah, I 0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:19.719 did that. I stopped playing as a way to punish 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:24.560 myself father. So with football no longer his focus, Keith 0:25:24.640 --> 0:25:29.399 takes on another hobby of sorts, shoplifting, but it doesn't 0:25:29.440 --> 0:25:35.159 start the way you might think. I started working two 0:25:35.240 --> 0:25:37.399 years old. I had two paper rounds, and this in 0:25:37.480 --> 0:25:40.720 addition to cutting grass in the summertime or shoving the 0:25:40.800 --> 0:25:42.800 snow in the winter, because I had to buy my 0:25:42.840 --> 0:25:45.520 own clothes, you know, school clothes for us. For at least, 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:47.600 my brother and I wore a pack of six packer 0:25:47.960 --> 0:25:51.800 two stocks and some underwear. That's what we got full school. 0:25:51.920 --> 0:25:53.359 You know, you go to school to learn how to 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.960 do math, read books, and learn about history, but you 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:02.080 also are learning from your peers. Was socially acceptable how 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.720 to be popular. And one of the lessons that you 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:07.520 learned coming out of schools that what you have is 0:26:07.560 --> 0:26:10.000 more important than who you are. That was a lesson 0:26:10.040 --> 0:26:12.320 that was driven home to me when I was twelve 0:26:12.440 --> 0:26:16.640 years old. My classmates, all of them, you know, took 0:26:16.680 --> 0:26:18.760 the time to point out to me that, you know, 0:26:18.840 --> 0:26:21.760 my clothes was less than shabby, that I was a 0:26:21.760 --> 0:26:24.600 whole bowl. A bump, called me a bump, you're a bomb. 0:26:24.800 --> 0:26:27.320 You know. The summer of my fifth grade, you're going 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:30.400 into the sixth grade, I saved up all my money 0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.879 and I bought me five hour fits and I was 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:38.360 saving up, you know, for some shoes, these shoes called creepers, 0:26:38.359 --> 0:26:43.560 black net shoes with a big gum bottom, real cheap shoes, 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.840 but they were in style at this at this particular time, 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:48.919 and I was saving up. That was the last piece 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:53.479 to my whole you know, remake, And I'm saving up, 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:54.960 and I was, you know, putting my money in a 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.919 pickle jar above the third shelf in the kitchen counter, 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:02.720 and turn that my brother had found it, took all 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:05.320 the money out of it and took my sister to 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:08.679 the mall for pizza in video game. Now. I was 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.639 devastated because school was starting a week after that, and 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:14.680 because now the only way I think at these shoes 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:17.879 is to steal them because I don't have the money. 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:20.200 And you know, of course, you know I had that 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:24.520 called stealing the shoes. You know, I wasn't a thief yet. 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:27.840 That took time, That took repeated try you know a 0:27:27.840 --> 0:27:30.840 few years before I became a thief. But you know, 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:37.840 that was my first attempt. Keith gets busted shoplifting by 0:27:37.880 --> 0:27:41.520