1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: A morning. This episode contains language and depictions of violence 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 1: that may be disturbing to some listeners. I was charged 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: with nine counts of aggravated murder. Almost one year after 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: the April nineteen ninety three Lucasville Uprising, Keith Lamar twenty 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: five learns he's been indicted by a grand jury for 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: the deaths of five men. I was shocked that it came. 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: It was about nine to ten of them, and it 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: came on ceremony backs to me. The authority and the 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: huttered up around my sale and hand me its document 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: by you know, four or five inches thick, and you know, 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: and it's like Keith Lamar, you know, so the whole 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: range could hear and everything, you know, And I read 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: just enough to see the nine counts, and I just 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: kind of lost my ship. But yeah, this disbelief, shock 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: bewildered compus in denial in the Angle Game, in the 16 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: Angler Stay, I'm Leah Rothman. This is the real Killer? 17 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: Episode three? Who is Keith Lamar? It's Friday morning. I'm 18 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: heading out to go see Keith, starting route to Ohio 19 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: State Penitentiary. My stomach hurts, My stomach hurts. I don't 20 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: feel good, but I'm looking forward to meeting Keith in person. 21 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: It's just the whole prisoned aspect of it that's quite daunting. 22 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: At the next top sign, turn night. The destination is 23 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: on your right. Ohio State Penitentiary. Aved Okay, I'm here. 24 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: I turned off the big microphone because I'm afraid of 25 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: getting in trouble. They have cameras everywhere I am about 26 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: to go into the prison. Damn, it's a scary looking place. 27 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: As a producer, I've been inside many prisons, but this 28 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: time it's different, and I'm surprised how nervous I am 29 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: from the outside. The Ohio State Penitentiary, a supermax prison, 30 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: which I've also heard people call a super deprivation prison, 31 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,839 Speaker 1: is like no prison I've ever seen before. It's an 32 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: absolute fortress. I walk from the parking lot to a small, 33 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: outdoor steel cage. I'm buzzed in. The door slams behind me. 34 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm essentially locked in that cage until they let me out. 35 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: I will not be allowed to record my meeting with Keith. 36 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: I'm not even allowed to bring in pen and paper. 37 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Once I get through security, I take an elevator to 38 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: the visiting room. While I wait I talk with a 39 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: corrections officer. I'm sure his body camera is recording me 40 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: as I answer all of his questions about why I'm 41 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: there and how I know Keith. About twenty minutes later, 42 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: Keith appears, handcuffed and escorted by two officers. He walks 43 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: into his side of our glass and metal enclosed visitors room, 44 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: Room Number sixteen. The officer's uncuff Keith through a hole 45 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: in the door, then leave. Keith reaches through the small 46 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: opening in the glass that separates us to shake my 47 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: hand and we say our first in person hellos. Keith 48 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: is tall, like six three and fit. He's bald, clean shaven, 49 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: and has a salt and pepper short mustache and goatee. 50 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: He's wearing a blue short sleeved shirt over a navy 51 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: long sleeved thermal shirt, navy pants, and brown boots, and 52 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: he has black framed glasses. Also, he has a nice 53 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: smile and an infectious laugh. Even though we've talked more 54 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: than six hours up until this point, meeting in person 55 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: could be weird, but it's not. I'm at ease with 56 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: him right off the bat. We have coffee and Keith 57 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: eats a chicken sandwich and a Caesar salad that I 58 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: buy from the vending machines. I'm way too wound up 59 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: to eat. We talk for about three and a half hours, 60 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 1: mostly about his case. I share with him a little 61 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: bit about my background. He shares some of his with me. 62 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: I tell him about Melissa and Rodney from our first 63 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: season and why I wanted to tell their story, and 64 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,559 Speaker 1: we laugh about the one guard who tried to trick 65 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 1: me into leaving him the prepaid debit card I put 66 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: money on for my visit with Keith. There's this one 67 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: really awkward moment when we're leaving. He's facing me being 68 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: cuffed by officers, and I'm not sure if I should 69 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: leave or wait for him to leave first, so I 70 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: start backing up doing this weird sort of stuttard goodbye dance. 71 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: Keith laughs and tells me it's okay to go, so 72 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: I do. When I get back to the car, I 73 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: immediately turn on the microphone. I'm pretty flustered. Okay, oh 74 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: my god, I just got out of the prison. Super Max, 75 00:05:53,440 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: absolutely terrifying place. The level of secure purity is crazy, 76 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: but the place it's like, I mean, the time with 77 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: Keith was so easy, you almost forget you know, and 78 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: he even said it's like it's really really bad in 79 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: parts of the prison. What else, Let's see. He was 80 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: funny and thoughtful, and it was a real conversation. I 81 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: mean it was hours and hours. It feel like stuff 82 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: is going to come to me when I get back 83 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: to my hotel. I remember something interesting, Keith said, so 84 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: I turned the mic back on. He thinks that he 85 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: may know of a different motive for why the four 86 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: in L six were killed, and he wants me to 87 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:59,039 Speaker 1: look into it. Remember, Keith's been accused of leading a 88 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: death squad in the early hours of the uprising, supposedly 89 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: going sell to sell in L six, killing four snitches 90 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: who had been locked up for their own protection. But 91 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: he says not so fast. Keith wonders whether those alleged 92 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: snitches were snitches at all. Maybe they were murdered because 93 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: they were actually child molesters or rapists, the most hated 94 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: in the prison population, or maybe the state decided to 95 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: label the victims snitches so they would appear more sympathetic 96 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: to a jury. I don't know if there's anything to this, 97 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: but I'm going to look into it regardless. In the meantime, 98 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: I learned from Keith on our next call. My exit 99 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: that day looked as awkward as it felt hopefully for 100 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: one hundred years. Like, you know, that was like a movie, 101 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, like that was going off to the arm 102 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: me going apply the war and yeah, what do most 103 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: people do? Just walk away? They say, you know, I don't. Yeah. Yeah, 104 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: it was nice. It was a really nice Yeah, it 105 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: was a nice visit. And it's a confusing feeling I 106 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: still can't shake. I mean, how can this seemingly gracious 107 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: and kind man be capable of the vicious murders he's 108 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: been accused of? And look, I've worked in true crime 109 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: long enough to know that some of the most infamous 110 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: killers are charming as hell. But we as humans want 111 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: to believe the best in people, right, I know I do. Anyway, 112 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: after that visit with Keith, the next day, I head 113 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: out to meet with someone else. Starting route to Athens, 114 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: proceed to Columbus Road and turn left. I drive three 115 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: plus hours to Athens, Ohio to meet Herman Carson, one 116 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: half of Keith's trial attorney team. The destination is on 117 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: your left. Herman and I meet in a conference room 118 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: at one of the local hotels right around checkout time. Yeah, 119 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: there's the vacuum. Yep. How's it killing your recording? It's 120 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: killing it. Herman Carson, a father of three daughters and 121 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: grandfather of seven, was a defense attorney for almost twenty 122 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: nine years. Why did you want to become an attorney? 123 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 1: What about the law intrigued you or excited you. I 124 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: don't know that any of it excited me. I see 125 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: it and still see it as a helping profession. Herman 126 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: was also the head of the local Public Defender's office 127 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: under the director of a ten county branch for the 128 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,079 Speaker 1: Office of the Ohio Public Defender before retiring in twenty nineteen. 129 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: Primarily timed my retirement to being able to travel to 130 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: Kentucky to watch my two oldest grandsons play soccer. The 131 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: other half of Keith's trial attorney team is k Robert Toy, 132 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: also from Athens. I speak with him separately over zoom. 133 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 1: What does the case stand for? Kung Fu? Oh, that's 134 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: a joke. That stands for Carrie k r r Y. 135 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: Now that's a female's name. So when I grew up 136 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: it was a name my parents like. But when I 137 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: went with my family, I'm Carrie. But when I jerked around. 138 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: It's kung fu. In nineteen ninety four, Bob and Herman 139 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: will team up, which is new territory for them. In 140 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: the ten years before that, they faced off in the courtroom, 141 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: Herman as a defense attorney and Bob as a prosecutor. 142 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: I was more a persecutor than I was a prosecutor. 143 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 1: You were tough, to say the least. Oh. Yeah. After 144 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: spending fourteen years as a prosecuting attorney, Bob was appointed 145 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: as the Athens County prosecutor in the summer of nineteen 146 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: ninety two. Later that year, he ran for public office, 147 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: but narrowly lost, so he opened up his private practice. 148 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: The judge who is assigned to Keith's case, Judge Fred Crowe, 149 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: knows Bob professionally and asks him if he'll represent Keith. 150 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: Bob says yes, then asks Herman to be his co consul. 151 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: Their first order of business is to meet with their client. Well, 152 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: I told Bob, I said, you know, I said, this 153 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: may not go very well. I said, because we're going 154 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: to be telling mister lamar Hi. I were two white 155 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: guys that the government has sent to help you, I said, 156 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: And I don't think it'll go over very well. We'll 157 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: see Herman isn't wrong. Keith is leery of them both, 158 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: I mean Herman's carlson. My initial impression was that he 159 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: was just because you look like a typical redneck at 160 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: the handlebar. Must ask the cowboy, must ask Robertian know 161 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: struck me as one of those slippery types. That's hardly 162 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: a vote of confidence. But they're all he's got. Unfortunately, 163 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: neither Herman nor Bob feel optimistic about the case. Here's Herman. 164 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: When they dealt the cards, we didn't get any good ones. 165 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: It's a highly publicized situation. The only positive thing you 166 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: could say is at least they didn't charging with participating 167 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: in the killing of the correctional officer. That was the 168 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: only plus I could think of. At least we're not 169 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: charged with that. But that's yeah, it was pretty much 170 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: stacked against you. The prosecutors offered him what we thought 171 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: was a fantastic deal, which would be two murders to 172 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: be concurrent with the murder he was already doing. And 173 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: I know my conversation with Keith was, Keith, hey, if 174 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: we got a parking ticket out here when we come 175 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: to visit you, our penalty would be worse than yours. 176 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: And you know, he stood up and he's a stand 177 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: up guy, and he says, no, I'm not going to 178 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 1: because I did not do it. Herman Carson and Bob 179 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: Toy will be representing Keith when he goes on trial. 180 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: What physical evidence did they have against Keith? Lamar zero. 181 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: They had zero physical evidence. Five brutal killings, just nothing. 182 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: So if there's no physical evidence tying Keith to the 183 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: crimes he's been charged with, how did he end up here? 184 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: Here's Herman. My belief is that Keith in a small 185 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: core group pardon my language, but when they were approached 186 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: in the investigation, they said, fuck you, we're not talking. 187 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: It don't matter what we know, we're not doing it. 188 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: And from there it was like, Okay, I'll put this 189 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: on somebody. You're going to be the target, targeted or not. 190 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: What the state has in their arsenal are those interviews 191 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: conducted by the Ohio State Highway Patrol with prisoners who, 192 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: unlike Keith, did cooperate, and in those interviews, several of 193 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: them eventually point the finger at Keith and name him 194 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: as the quote leader of the death squad. On the surface, 195 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't look great for Bob and Herman's defense, but 196 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: their preparation for trial isn't just about sifting through whatever 197 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: evidence there may or may not be. The also need 198 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: to learn more about Keith. Here's Hermann. I want a 199 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: lot of times to see Keith by myself, to get 200 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: to know him, and to get to know his background. 201 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, he was out on his own 202 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: when he's fifteen or sixteen, yet an apartment in the 203 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: projects was dealing drugs and more like the serious crime 204 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: that sends Keith at age nineteen to prison in the 205 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: first place. But to understand how Keith got there, you 206 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: first have to understand where he comes from. By the way, 207 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: Keith's audio coming up isn't great. Keith believes that from 208 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: time to time people at the prison will listen in 209 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: and purposely mess with the phone lines or interrupt the 210 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: Wi Fi. There's no way of knowing if that's true 211 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: or not. Let's talk about like early stuff. Can you 212 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about your childhood? Yeah. I 213 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: was born in nineteen sixty nine May thirty, Flush, nineteen 214 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: sixty nine to a single mother, a third of four kids. 215 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: My older brother Nelson, the second oldest brother, Blair, who 216 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: died when I was when he was eight years old 217 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: leukemia being missing myself. And then I have a younger sister, Princess, 218 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: who grew up in this place called Village, my enclave 219 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: on the east side of Cleveland, made up of working 220 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: class people who were working for the most part, and 221 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: the steel meals in factory that was adjacent to our community. 222 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: My grandfather worked at this place called Republic Steal bought 223 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: his own house for twelve thousand dollars in nineteen sixty 224 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: from what I understand, And so yeah, that was our 225 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: home here in this little neighborhood. And it was a 226 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: community where, you know, everybody knew each other, just a small, 227 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: tight knit neighborhood. And I stayed there too. I was 228 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: around I would say, nine years old. You know. By then, 229 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: my mother had been every four a few years to 230 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: this man named Larry Morris, my stepdad. Describe your mom 231 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: for me in those early years. My mom, whose name 232 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: is Katherine Lamar, she was just, you know, a sweet 233 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: woman and the woman you know, but you know that 234 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: tenderness was something that she doled out and and um 235 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: in pieces, you know. So you know, one time in particular, 236 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: I was around nine or ten years old. I was 237 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: sick and stayed home from school. Her and I watched 238 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: this movie called Sparkle was Dinah Ross, and we watched 239 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: it over and over. We had a few, you know, 240 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: experiences along those lines. She wasn't like a terrible person, 241 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: she just was terribly trouble. I remember my earliest memories 242 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: of my mother. She was always in some form or 243 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: another intoxicated. She was always on you know, various peals, 244 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: sleeping peals, diet pills, pay a little. He says he 245 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: didn't learn a lot of this until after his mother 246 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: passed away in twenty fourteen, but he does remember one 247 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 1: early and awful memory quite clearly. In fact, you know, 248 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: when I was around five, four or five years old, 249 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: we live in this real stuffy, King Kennedy housing projects. 250 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: And one night, you know, I came to I heard 251 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: somebody knocking on the door, and I went to open it. 252 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: You know, the guy bribed me, slid some money under 253 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: the bottom of the door, and I opened the door, 254 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: released the latch, and this man ended up raping my 255 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: mom that night. M Yeah, and you know, um, and 256 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: several days after that, this man was killed by one 257 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: of my mother's boyfriends. And you know, his body was 258 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: blind beneath my beardroom window. And I'm, you know, four 259 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: or five years old, and I you know, we call 260 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 1: somebody standing behind me and asked, look at what he did. 261 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: Keith is told he is the reason that man was dead. 262 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: How does a child that young even process something like that? 263 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: How can it not leave a lasting effect? Around age nine, Keith, 264 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: his mom, stepdad Larry, and siblings move away from his 265 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: grandparents in the village. Keith says, that's when the real 266 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: struggles begin. I'm growing up with the lights being cut off, 267 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: the heat being cut off. We grew up, you know, 268 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: going through parsal. We didn't have food. And it's around 269 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: this time Keith meets a new friend, Sherman Whaley. Even 270 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 1: though their homes aren't far in proximity, their lives are 271 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: worlds apart. Focus parentsly are together lived and like this 272 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: wife ticket sense type situation going on. And somehow we 273 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 1: became friends in the sixth grades, best friends because he 274 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: was kind of exercised too, because he was short. I 275 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: was out sad because I was dirty, and so you know, 276 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: he and I became Queans, short and dirty, you know, 277 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: and we hung at the other every day. His mother 278 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: became like my said logant mother, and I spent the 279 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: night over the house quite a bit. We did everything together, 280 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: you know. He would ride his bike to our house 281 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: pretty much every day. That's Sherman Whaley today. He's a 282 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: park police officer for Cleveland Metroparks and a married father 283 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: of four daughters. We played on the same baseball team, 284 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: so my mom would go pick him up and he 285 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: would spend the night. She would, you know, make us breakfast, 286 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: and you know, sometimes she would wash his clothes. I 287 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: remember he had such lovely manners. He never walked in 288 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: my home that he didn't speak. High, mister Whaley, High 289 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: missus Whaley, how were you? That's Carmen Whaley, Sherman's mother, 290 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: also a doting grandmother, writer of poetry and short stories, 291 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: and honestly one of the sweetest women I've ever met. 292 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: And I just remember them always laughing. They were always 293 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,199 Speaker 1: happy together, and they played well together. He didn't have 294 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: a mean bone in his body. I mean, he was 295 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: just the type of kid that was just radiated happiness, 296 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: and I just enjoyed having him in my home. We 297 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: used to put hot dogs and hamburgers on the girl 298 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: when he'd be here, and I had fruit, bananas and 299 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: strawberries and cherries and whatnot and bags of chips. He 300 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: ate good. Yeah. I always took Keith home, and I 301 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: always there was always a feeling of sadness when I 302 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: felt sad when I dropped him off. I don't know, 303 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: it was just there that I felt. You just know 304 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: that things aren't the way they really should be. You 305 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: just have that inner feeling, that innate feeling, because because 306 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: when you're a mother, you just know certain things. And 307 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: if I could have nurtured him for a long time, 308 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: I would have done it. But he had a mother, 309 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And he had a family 310 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: and home and whatnot, so you know, I had to 311 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: stay within my parameters and whatnot. One of the most 312 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: dominating and traumatizing figures in Keith's family is his stepfather, 313 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: Larry Morris. He passed away in the late nineties. So 314 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: tell me some of your earliest memories of Lariot. He 315 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: was a musician, he was a drummer, He was from 316 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: New Orleans. He was working, you know, blue collar type person. 317 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: But in terms of his personality and his sensibility, there 318 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: was a lot of mental physical abuse. Do you remember 319 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: the first time Larry you Now, it seemed like it 320 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,959 Speaker 1: just you know, Um always was present, and you know, 321 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 1: the beatings were so rampant and arbitrary in my household 322 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: that you know, I really kind of developed was the 323 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: kind of hyper visionlanth Um young person, because I didn't 324 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: know what would result in me being beaten. You know, 325 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: I was playing football with one of my neighbors who 326 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: had asthma, and I was running drills because I was 327 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: a quarter back and he had an asthma attack, and 328 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: somehow I was blamed for that and it was beaten 329 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: to the point, you know where it was it crossed 330 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: over to like a major assault. The bell buckle struck 331 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: me on the right side of my face and I 332 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,359 Speaker 1: can't with the mark even to this day. It wasn't 333 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: even outraged, It was just shock. You know that you 334 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: can be just walking along and all of a sudden 335 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: a trapdoor offense and you just, you know, in a 336 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: different place. What did your mom do or say when 337 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: Larry would hit you? I mean, sadly, she was the 338 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: one who kind of set it up, you know, going 339 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: in the room away on your father to come home, 340 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: and so I can hear the car when they pull 341 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: up in the driveway, to hear the keys turning in 342 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: the door, and I can hear him, you know, mumbling 343 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: with my mother, and I can hear him taking his 344 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: belt off. I can hear all that, you know what 345 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: I mean. Even right now, the only way he feels 346 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: he can fight back against his stepdad is through the 347 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: one thing that matters to him, my stepfather. He loved football. 348 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: He was a fanatic and playing you know, football, being 349 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: a star athlete, you know, seemed to you know, give 350 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: him something to be proud of, at least doing that 351 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: particular football season, and that, you know, of course made 352 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 1: me happy. You know, when I was twelve thirteen years old, 353 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: when the beatings, you know, kind of increase in intensity team, 354 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: I quit football to kind of punish him. And I 355 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: think that, you know, was probably one of the biggest 356 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: mistakes that I made in my life in terms of 357 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: being able to go to college, being able you know, 358 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, to stay out of trouble. But yeah, I 359 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: did that. I stopped playing as a way to punish 360 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: myself father. So with football no longer his focus, Keith 361 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: takes on another hobby of sorts, shoplifting, but it doesn't 362 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: start the way you might think. I started working two 363 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: years old. I had two paper rounds, and this in 364 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: addition to cutting grass in the summertime or shoving the 365 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: snow in the winter, because I had to buy my 366 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: own clothes, you know, school clothes for us. For at least, 367 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: my brother and I wore a pack of six packer 368 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: two stocks and some underwear. That's what we got full school. 369 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: You know, you go to school to learn how to 370 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: do math, read books, and learn about history, but you 371 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: also are learning from your peers. Was socially acceptable how 372 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: to be popular. And one of the lessons that you 373 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: learned coming out of schools that what you have is 374 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: more important than who you are. That was a lesson 375 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: that was driven home to me when I was twelve 376 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: years old. My classmates, all of them, you know, took 377 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: the time to point out to me that, you know, 378 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: my clothes was less than shabby, that I was a 379 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: whole bowl. A bump, called me a bump, you're a bomb. 380 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: You know. The summer of my fifth grade, you're going 381 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: into the sixth grade, I saved up all my money 382 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: and I bought me five hour fits and I was 383 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: saving up, you know, for some shoes, these shoes called creepers, 384 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: black net shoes with a big gum bottom, real cheap shoes, 385 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: but they were in style at this at this particular time, 386 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: and I was saving up. That was the last piece 387 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: to my whole you know, remake, And I'm saving up, 388 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: and I was, you know, putting my money in a 389 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: pickle jar above the third shelf in the kitchen counter, 390 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: and turn that my brother had found it, took all 391 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: the money out of it and took my sister to 392 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 1: the mall for pizza in video game. Now. I was 393 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 1: devastated because school was starting a week after that, and 394 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: because now the only way I think at these shoes 395 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: is to steal them because I don't have the money. 396 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: And you know, of course, you know I had that 397 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: called stealing the shoes. You know, I wasn't a thief yet. 398 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: That took time, That took repeated try you know a 399 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: few years before I became a thief. But you know, 400 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: that was my first attempt. Keith gets busted shoplifting by 401 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: store managers from time to time. Going to mall jail 402 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: is one thing. Being arrested by Cleveland police and facing 403 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 1: an actual judge is something very different. I was called 404 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: Joey Ryan and the stolen vehicle with six other individuals 405 00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: who had multiple conviction. That I then became an official 406 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: criminal in terms of being in the system, lags into 407 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: you know, the system as a cartie. You know. At thirteen, 408 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: Keith is sent to juvenile detention for six months. I 409 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: was being told what to do in a way that 410 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: I understood. I didn't really have a choice in the matter, 411 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: but everything was ultimately being done to provide structure and 412 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: provide some sense of agency and whatnot. So when I 413 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: came home from the juvenile place and from this situation 414 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: of structure, I was a straight A student. But I 415 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: came home to the same economic situation. In fact, it 416 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: was worse. When I came home, my family had moved 417 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: into a two bedroom department, you know, one board room 418 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: from my parents, one room from my sister, and you know, 419 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: my brother and I would had to live in an 420 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: uninsulated attic you know, electricity or whatever. Needing money, Keith 421 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: turns to a family member for help. I went to 422 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: a favorite undermined and it told her that I wanted 423 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: to start selling marijuana. She of course tried to convince 424 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: me against you know, going down that path. But I 425 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: was determined and I think she saw that, and I 426 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 1: kind of made the plea that listen, if you don't 427 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: do this for me, I'm a guard here and somebody 428 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's going to cheat me out of 429 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: my money, you know what I mean. So if you 430 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, if you want to help me now at 431 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: the time, if she altomately relined taught me, you know, 432 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: how to you know, bag it up and everything, and 433 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: you know I didn't look back after that. Kevin Lowry 434 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: knows Keith Lamar better than almost anyone. So tell me 435 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: you and Keith are cousins, right, okay? Um? In reality, uh, 436 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: Keith's brother Nelson Lamar is my my cousin and because 437 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: of that affiliation, we grew up as cousins. On this 438 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: hot and humid night, Kevin, a businessman with a law degree, 439 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: and his wife, Ramona, a civil engineer for the city 440 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 1: of Cleveland, invite me into their beautiful home in an 441 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: affluent suburb of Cleveland to talk about Keith. Kevin and 442 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Ramona have been together thirty six years and our parents 443 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: to a daughter and son. Tragically, less than one month 444 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: after this interview is recorded. Kevin dies unexpectedly. Multiple people 445 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: would tell you that they were Keith's best friend, but 446 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: we considered ourselves to be best friends during that time. 447 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: Keith family, you know, they were known throughout the neighborhood. 448 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: Our homes were kind of volatile. You know, I'm not 449 00:30:54,400 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: trying to disparage, but we came from an area that 450 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: how can I put it, during the time when we 451 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: came up that some criminal activity wasn't looked down on. 452 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: And obviously Keith had issues at his home that he 453 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: didn't talk about, you know, And so when you would 454 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: see him or I on the street, you know, he 455 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: was always cracking jokes. You know they say people wear 456 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: many masks. He wore a mask at that time, as 457 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: if life was grand. You know, that he was living well, 458 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: that he was doing good. Sometimes people laugh and smile 459 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: to keep from crying. Kevin's wife, Ramona, meets Keith the 460 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: same night. She meets Kevin at a neighborhoods skate and 461 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: dance club called the Plush. She's fifteen at the time. 462 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: People's goofy. During that time, there were quite a few 463 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: nightclubs for kids to go to. So I would see 464 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: him at all thought. So when he said dancing, was 465 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: he a good dancer? He was a good dancer. It 466 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: was just before the break dance era, and he was 467 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: really good at dancing. But Kevin's close relationship with Keith 468 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: causes some problems in Kevin and Ramona's budding romance. Keith 469 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: and I never had any type of like negative words, 470 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: so whenever we were around each other, it's always cords 471 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: a good conversation. So it was more Kevin and I 472 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: bumping heads because I'm saying, hey, let's go do this 473 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: and said, oh, but Ma, Keith are going to go 474 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: do this, And so it was more about him saying, 475 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: I'll see you another day. I'm about to go and 476 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: hang with Keith. I remember one of the areas that 477 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: Keith lived in, which was off one hundred and twenty 478 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: third and Angelus here in Cleveland, and they lived in 479 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: a corner house had a third floor. It was a 480 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: store underneath. Keith lived there with his mom and Larry 481 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: and his sister and brother, and Keith and his brother 482 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: slept in that third floor, you know, fighting against the 483 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: elements hot in the summer, freezer cole in the winter, 484 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: you know, And that's when he ended up leaving home. 485 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: But it's not just the elements. Keith is fighting. After 486 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: another horrible altercation with his stepfather Larry, Keith, who is 487 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: fifteen at the time, has had enough. He moves out 488 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: of his parents attic and in with a friend. He 489 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: already had a place, and we were more or less 490 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: used in that place to sell drugs. So I moved 491 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: into the apartment. Around this time, Keith also drops out 492 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: of school. Can you describe a little for me what 493 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: it was like though, being a teenager living in that 494 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: environment in the projects. The attitude was, you know, okay, nothing. 495 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: You know, life isn't fair, so why should we be fair? 496 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: Why should we live while cold where we see that 497 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: you know, it has been already been violated. I started 498 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: carrying a gun when I was about sixteen years old, 499 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: and it was really deep off into the drug trade. 500 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: I was selling cocaine and started snorting cocaine. So I 501 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 1: got hooked. What I was a drug added without even 502 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: really fully appreciating that I was hooked on drugs, and 503 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: you know, I was, you know, robbing jewelry stores, and 504 00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: so a lot of money passed through my hands. You know, 505 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: I had marchdes Bins, Calillaca. I was living really on 506 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: the edge, twenty four seven around the clock. Then a 507 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: devastating event changes everything. It's December second, nineteen eighty eight. 508 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 1: Keith is nineteen years old. Can you tell me about 509 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: what happened? Oh? Yeah, talking, yeah, yeah, So well, I 510 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: had been robbed several times and so in that particular day, 511 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: I was dropped off some drugs and I was in 512 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: the back bedroom counting the money and somebody knocked on 513 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: the door and I heard that and the guy who 514 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: was in the h It was several people in the 515 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: house with me, but one of the guys opened up 516 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: the door and I heard a lot of commotion and 517 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: so I came out. I had my gun in my hand. 518 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 1: I came out as soon as the guy who was 519 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 1: in the front ken yat. As soon as he saw me, 520 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: he was raised his gun up and I shot him 521 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: and they would ran out of the department because the 522 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: bullets was lying. Then I got shot in my right 523 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: and I made it to the bottom of the project building, 524 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: so on third floor, but the totter. I made it 525 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,919 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the hallway and I sat down 526 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: on the stairs and my brother called an ambulance and 527 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 1: then I woke up in the hospital room the next morning, 528 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: handcuffed to the bed. But that's the kind of thing 529 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: those out the kind of things that can happen to 530 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: you in that world. You know, you could be ride 531 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: in the hide one moment and literally the next moment, 532 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 1: you could be dead. And of course you know I 533 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: was stilling illegal drugs. There was no argument that I 534 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: can make when I'm at the court that I was 535 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 1: standing in my ground or that I was self defense. 536 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 1: But I was selling drugs. And you can't if your 537 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: hands are dirty. And his name YadA, Kenyada Collins, Yeah, 538 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: that's why. And was he he was a childhood friend 539 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: or you had known him from when you got he 540 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: was he was a friend. I would call him that. Yeah, 541 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: we walked to school together, played basketball together. But he 542 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: was a friend of proximity, if you understand what I mean. 543 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: Twenty year old Kenyada Collins dies as a result of 544 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 1: two gunshots. When you realized that Kenyada Collins died, yeah, 545 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: what did you feel? No for For certainly on that 546 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: day and for a long time after that, I was 547 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: blocked by the ideal that he was my enemy somebody 548 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: who had came to do me harm, and so I 549 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: was entitled to feel a certain way about what has 550 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: happened between us. I was reaching for some kind of 551 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,479 Speaker 1: justification so that I won't have to feel so bad 552 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: about this thing I've done. Keith pleads guilty and its 553 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: sentenced eighteen years to life. In nineteen eighty nine, Keith 554 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: begins serving his time at Lebanon Correctional Institution in southern Ohio. 555 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: When I first got to Lebanon, I met this guy 556 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: and he took me on his wing, taught me how 557 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: to play chest, taught me how to box, you know, 558 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: and then that, you know, really gave me a foundation 559 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: to start, you know, building up how I wanted to 560 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: kind of live my life. So I got my ged 561 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: I wrote to the college pokeground, and at Lebanon, Keith 562 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: finds a small piece of home. It was only a 563 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: handful of people from Cleveland who was down at if 564 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,319 Speaker 1: you were to Cleveland was hung out together. One of 565 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: those guys is George Fazon. You met him in the 566 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 1: last episode. We both were basically, I don't like the 567 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: same products of our environment. It's just environment we grew 568 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 1: up in, you know, within a lot of Brigan homes, 569 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: a lot of illegal things going on around us, and 570 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: unfortunately we did succumb to some of those situations that 571 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 1: were going on in our environment. Tokyo Morgan is there too, 572 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: Irking says elementary school. I ain't ain't gonna lie. Only 573 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: thing change is weight and the height. The guy's a 574 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: very humorous guy. In the end, he got a beautiful 575 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: this position. If a situation go down bad Obat, that's 576 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: what he all said. Man, it ain't even work. So 577 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: he's an ark away and I do the same thing. 578 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: But something happens at Lebanon that challenges that very notion. 579 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: We were starting to have problem with this other group 580 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,240 Speaker 1: of guys from Daton, Ohio. A friend of Keith tells 581 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,919 Speaker 1: him one of the Dayton guys has threatened to kill 582 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 1: him in prison. That can't go unanswered. A huge fight 583 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: breaks out between the Cleveland guys and the Dayton guys, 584 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: and when it's all over, Keith, George, Tokyo, and some 585 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 1: of the others are transferred to Lucasville. It's a horrible 586 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: twist of fate. Really turns out Keith's friend's life never 587 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 1: had been threatened, that fight never needed to happen it 588 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 1: but based on a lie. Ultimately he said things in 589 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,240 Speaker 1: motions that resulted in us being at you know, arriving 590 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: down Lucasville. Lucasfield was like alcatrash. You went there to die. 591 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: When I got there, a friend of my brothers gave 592 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: me a two hour to play about tour. I mean 593 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: he showed me where all the knives or barry. You know, 594 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,719 Speaker 1: they had knives planted in the ground on the recreation 595 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: yard and they had these little ribbons on the end 596 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: of them, so you can see them before the edge 597 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: of grass or you know, against the defense post or 598 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: wherever they were hid. And knives in the hallways, knives 599 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: in the kitchen. So that let me know, you know, 600 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: like why I need all these knives. That's telling you 601 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 1: the world that you have entered it into. Prior to 602 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: the uprising, did you have any disciplinary write ups or 603 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: a Lucasville Yeah, but I think I had several somebody 604 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 1: stole phase on properties. It's clothes and sweatsuits and tennis shoes, 605 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: and we jumped this guy in the kitchen. I got 606 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: it to several fights down in Lucasville. Whenever something did 607 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: happen like when you know, George and I confronted this 608 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: guy about still in his property. That was something that 609 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 1: obviously we had to respond to because in prison, if 610 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: you don't respond to things like that, now you become 611 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: known for that. People if they want to take something 612 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: from somebody, go take it from Piece and George, they 613 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,359 Speaker 1: won't do anything. If you do something, you could get 614 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: in trouble. But if you don't do something, you're also 615 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 1: a target. And did you damned if you do, you 616 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: damned if you don't. Exactly, I'm not an angel, and 617 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: so you know I won't shy away from saying about 618 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: telling you about all them sort of shit I've done 619 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,200 Speaker 1: in my life, things that I regret. A lot of regret, Yeah, 620 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: a lot of ship. I wish I can go back 621 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,840 Speaker 1: and we can do. But does matter. He's been accused 622 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: of doing something that you know he hadn't done. But 623 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: you have the answer to work for the rest of 624 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: your life. Keith says, when he's guilty, he admits he's guilty. 625 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,919 Speaker 1: But ever since the Lucasville uprising almost three decades ago, 626 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,080 Speaker 1: he's been adamant that he was not the leader of 627 00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: the death squad, and he did not kill those five men. 628 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,480 Speaker 1: Defending his life begins in June of nineteen ninety five. 629 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: There was nothing that I can really say, because I've 630 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 1: made the same They didn't have any evidence to Pools 631 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 1: that I killed these five people. You know, that's the cremer, 632 00:41:52,480 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: that's the system is a nutshell. Next time on the 633 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: real killer. How did you feel about your case? Oh, 634 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,239 Speaker 1: I thought he's going to get convicted. Keith Lamar goes 635 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: on trial and some say the state's witnesses are singing 636 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: for their supper. I felt that they were lying and 637 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,759 Speaker 1: they had plunting incentive to lie. Reliving it almost thirty 638 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: years later is anything but easy. He's still there basically. 639 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: You know, I've already back in nineteen ninety five in 640 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 1: this courtoro Roundatis envisioning the ship. This se is observed. Man, 641 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: it's just like these fucking people. Man, you know, my god. 642 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: We would like to extend our deepest condolences to Kevin 643 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,360 Speaker 1: Lowry's wife, Ramona. They're chill, dren friends and family. In 644 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: the short time I knew Kevin, he was so funny, 645 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: welcoming and warm, and he let me know how important 646 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: it was for us to get together so he could 647 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,400 Speaker 1: share his memories of and love for his cousin Keith. Again, 648 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: to all who knew and loved Kevin, we are very 649 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: sorry for your loss. The Real Killer is a production 650 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,600 Speaker 1: of AYR Media and iHeartRadio, hosted by me Leah Rothman. 651 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: Executive producers Leah Rothman and Eliza Rosen for AYR Media. 652 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: Written by Leah Rothman, Executive producer Paulina Williams, Senior associate producer, 653 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: Jill Pesheznik, Coordinator George Faum. Editing and sound design by 654 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: Cameron Taggy. Mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggy. Audio engineering 655 00:43:55,600 --> 00:44:01,640 Speaker 1: by Matt Jacobsen. Studio engineering by Anna Moolish. Legal counsel 656 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:07,720 Speaker 1: for AYR Media, Gianni Douglas. Executive producer for iHeartRadio, Maya 657 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: Howard