Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Girl. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to I Choose Me. I am back with doctor
Speaker 1: Paul Conti, author of What's Going Right, diving a little
Speaker 1: deeper into these internal drives we all have because I
Speaker 1: feel like there's so much more to uncover. So let's
Speaker 1: get into it. Let's jump right back into the deep end.
Speaker 1: In a minute, we're going to sort of break down
Speaker 1: your concept of our inner drives. But first let's start
Speaker 1: out with this big question right now, in this world,
Speaker 1: in this moment, what do you think people should be
Speaker 1: most aware of when it comes to taking care of
Speaker 1: our mental health.
Speaker 2: Well, I think everyone should be aware that there is
Speaker 2: a way to understand ourselves and we can bring that
Speaker 2: understanding to creating change that we don't have to be
Speaker 2: afraid of our mental health. If a person says physical health,
Speaker 2: often others respond in a way that's interested, Oh, what
Speaker 2: are you doing to take care of yourself? Here's what
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and there's an exchange. But mental health creates
Speaker 2: a reflux of stigma, and I'm often trying to get
Speaker 2: away from that. And that comes because we don't anticipate
Speaker 2: understanding or helpful change or I think knowing that we
Speaker 2: can understand ourselves, we can bring change, just as we
Speaker 2: can in our physical health.
Speaker 1: There's hope. There's hope in that, and I like that. Okay,
Speaker 1: let's make the drives that you talk about even easier
Speaker 1: to understand. So if you could please summarize the assertion drive,
Speaker 1: the pleasure drive, and the generative drive.
Speaker 2: So classically, it has been thought in the field that
Speaker 2: we have two drives that each human has borne into
Speaker 2: that person, an assertion drive, which was often called aggression,
Speaker 2: and a pleasure drive. And these drives sometimes get a
Speaker 2: little bit stereotype, like a caveman wants to club someone
Speaker 2: and drag them back to the cave, or drag the
Speaker 2: food back to the cave, or you know, people who
Speaker 2: are doing things that are not healthy and that are
Speaker 2: not right in the world. And often it's not that.
Speaker 2: It's not that, it's that we all want to be
Speaker 2: a presence in the world and have our and have
Speaker 2: our presence felt in the world. We want to be
Speaker 2: able to change the world around us, We want to
Speaker 2: be able to make our way in it by asserting ourselves,
Speaker 2: and we want pleasure, which isn't always things that we
Speaker 2: classically associate with pleasure. It can be the pleasure of safety,
Speaker 2: of having a roof over our heads, having enough food.
Speaker 2: These these are the ways that we gain pleasure in life.
Speaker 2: And the thought has been, okay, we have this assertion
Speaker 2: and aggression and pleasure drive, and again that's often led
Speaker 2: us to places that become that sort of look at
Speaker 2: the worst in humans. It's not really what it's saying,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't. It's a surprising that it ends up
Speaker 2: there because it's missing the point that we can't just
Speaker 2: have those two drives. It would not explain the survival
Speaker 2: of the species. It doesn't explain altruism. It doesn't explain
Speaker 2: doing anything that's not directly about the self. It doesn't
Speaker 2: explain creating art, or creating beauty, or enjoying someone else's
Speaker 2: enjoyment of something. That there's a generative drive in all
Speaker 2: of us that is there in us to create and
Speaker 2: to grow and to make the world better. It's not
Speaker 2: just asserting ourselves in the world. It's wanting things to
Speaker 2: be better, wanting there to be beauty where there wasn't before,
Speaker 2: Wanting someone who's sad and down on the ground metaphorically
Speaker 2: to be able to stand back up and be back
Speaker 2: on their feet. When we see through that lens, which
Speaker 2: I think are literature and philosophy across hundreds of years
Speaker 2: of human experience across thousands, I think it bears out
Speaker 2: that we can't just be aggression and pleasure, that there's
Speaker 2: something else going on inside of us. And I think
Speaker 2: it's so clear that that something else is this generative
Speaker 2: drive to create and to make the world a better place.
Speaker 2: It's why we build, it's why we know. It's why
Speaker 2: people go into labs and discover cures for illnesses. It's
Speaker 2: why people want other people to learn about things good
Speaker 2: help them. There's so much that's good in us, and
Speaker 2: when that's governing us, we're healthy. And it's not a
Speaker 2: Pollyannic concept. It's what we do when we ourselves are
Speaker 2: healthy and the groups that we live in, be they
Speaker 2: family units all the way up to states to nations,
Speaker 2: and states are healthy.
Speaker 1: It seems like the generative drive is the most important
Speaker 1: one for me. I just feel it feels like it's
Speaker 1: the most important one. But yes, sometimes the other two
Speaker 1: can kind of take over. So where do we find
Speaker 1: the balance.
Speaker 2: Yes, the generative drive governs the other two, so it
Speaker 2: is the most important drive. So for assertion and pleasure,
Speaker 2: there are ranges that are ideal for each of us
Speaker 2: based upon very complicated factors genes, early life experiences, adult experiences.
Speaker 2: So we have different optimal ranges, but those drives can
Speaker 2: be out of balance. So, for example, think about assertion.
Speaker 2: We can become too assertive now we're trying to over
Speaker 2: control things, or where we act in a way in
Speaker 2: the world that's putting other people down so that we
Speaker 2: can make ourselves feel better. Like there can be just
Speaker 2: too much assertion, which can turn into aggression right, or
Speaker 2: there can be too little assertion where if I want
Speaker 2: something better to happen in my life, but I can't
Speaker 2: get myself up off the couch to do it, there's
Speaker 2: not enough assertion and I'm not going to have the
Speaker 2: outcomes that I want. So there's an optimal range for assertiveness.
Speaker 2: The same way with pleasure, people who are seeking pleasure
Speaker 2: at a very very high level start to seek it
Speaker 2: at the expense of other things that it may be
Speaker 2: easier to eat the thing that's really unhealthy because it
Speaker 2: feels good in the moment, for example. So we can't
Speaker 2: focus too much on pleasure or too little if we
Speaker 2: don't think we're going to get pleasure from anything, we
Speaker 2: don't do it. So so someone who thinks, oh, nothing
Speaker 2: will go I never have a fun when I go out,
Speaker 2: or when I do this or that. Why do it?
Speaker 2: Why buy it? Then there's such a low pleasure drive
Speaker 2: that that's out of balance. So we want assertion and
Speaker 2: pleasure to be in balance, and for them to be
Speaker 2: in balance the aspects of self underneath the structure of
Speaker 2: self and the function of self, those things that are
Speaker 2: analogous to the physical structures in us, they have to
Speaker 2: be in healthy places. Then the assertion drive and the
Speaker 2: pleasure drive can be in healthy places where they're governed
Speaker 2: by the generative drive. The more of the generative drive,
Speaker 2: the better, right, the more the better it keeps those
Speaker 2: assertion and pleasure drives in good places, and it helps
Speaker 2: our structure and function of self stay in healthy places.
Speaker 2: So this is how we can see, Oh, I can
Speaker 2: understand how to be mentally healthy, how to build good
Speaker 2: mental health, just as we can understand how to build
Speaker 2: good physical health. And the generative drive is governing all
Speaker 2: and you can see that born out. When people have
Speaker 2: healthy aging, for example, they governed by the generative drive.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different words we could put to it,
Speaker 2: but they're they're still learning. They feel a sense of
Speaker 2: value of themselves in the world, and they're creating, and
Speaker 2: they have relationships with others. And we know that when
Speaker 2: people are generative, they're happy, and they're they killed they
Speaker 2: instead of destroying.
Speaker 1: Right. So I talk to a lot of women about
Speaker 1: finding their voice, getting comfortable expressing themselves, asserting themselves. I
Speaker 1: guess this would be under the assertion drive. And sometimes,
Speaker 1: like you said, it can get out of balance and
Speaker 1: it becomes too assertive. How do you recommend women in
Speaker 1: general find their voice and how do you recommend that
Speaker 1: we keep it in balance? And do we need to
Speaker 1: think about keeping it in balance?
Speaker 2: I think the first point, I think is to be
Speaker 2: aware of one's right to strive for health and happiness.
Speaker 2: Any demographic that historically has been put by the society
Speaker 2: around us at a disadvantage, or who has been told, oh,
Speaker 2: you know, you're not supposed to do that, you don't
Speaker 2: get to do that, has to be extra careful. Right
Speaker 2: to ground, to the right within each of us, within
Speaker 2: every person, to assert themselves in a good, healthy way,
Speaker 2: to find the pleasures that we want in life, so
Speaker 2: starting from our right, and very often people have had
Speaker 2: put into them that they don't have a right to
Speaker 2: assert themselves in the world. And you see this more
Speaker 2: commonly in women than in men, who often are raised
Speaker 2: in ways not always, of course, but the society around
Speaker 2: us or the unit of people around can lead a
Speaker 2: person to think that as they come to adulthood that
Speaker 2: they don't have quite the rights that others do, and
Speaker 2: they're supposed to do more for others than for self.
Speaker 2: For example, things that can be very very good if
Speaker 2: it's in a certain way, if it's through the generative drive,
Speaker 2: but if it's in a way that says, well, you
Speaker 2: don't get to have as much or you don't get
Speaker 2: to have as much happiness, that's not okay. And we
Speaker 2: have to be aware and ground to the right to
Speaker 2: have a good life, to seek health and happiness. Once
Speaker 2: a person is there, then we're on. Then we become
Speaker 2: kind of on the same footing. Then we're looking at
Speaker 2: ourselves and saying, okay, if a person is, oh, it
Speaker 2: is too much or too little assertive, how might I
Speaker 2: change that? And how did I get there? So, for example,
Speaker 2: some people who are more assertive than is healthy. How
Speaker 2: they get there is because they were told so much
Speaker 2: to not be assertive that they have a reaction against it. Right,
Speaker 2: and people can be too assertive, So we see that.
Speaker 2: So if a person is being more assertive, we look
Speaker 2: at okay, is it a reaction to something? Or if
Speaker 2: a person is being more assertive, right, are they finding that? Hey?
Speaker 2: As I became more assertive, things got better in life. Right,
Speaker 2: I was able to say no to people. Are I'm
Speaker 2: choosing this not that? And then we learn to be
Speaker 2: more assertive and too much of a good thing isn't
Speaker 2: a good thing anymore? Like, we're all so complicated, But
Speaker 2: we can understand ourselves and figure ourselves out. So if
Speaker 2: we start from the right to understand ourselves and to
Speaker 2: build good mental health and to build a good life,
Speaker 2: and then we approach ourselves with compassion and curiosity, then
Speaker 2: we'll figure out what is going on in us and why. Yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, So anybody out there who's listening who doesn't recognize
Speaker 1: that right to happiness and joy and a good life
Speaker 1: should really take that to heart, because we all do
Speaker 1: deserve that.
Speaker 2: We all have that right. Yes, And I would add
Speaker 2: that doing for others, which is a wonderful thing for
Speaker 2: us to do in life, does not have to mean
Speaker 2: that the person themselves is deprived, right, And oftentimes that
Speaker 2: is the messaging that a person or a woman is
Speaker 2: supposed to create goodness for others, but it's okay for
Speaker 2: that to be at the expense of the self, And
Speaker 2: of course that's not okay at all. It's not okay
Speaker 2: for that person, and it doesn't actually help the person
Speaker 2: help others. Right, there are ways we have to start
Speaker 2: with ourselves and say, okay, I get to take care
Speaker 2: of myself. I have a right and even a responsibility
Speaker 2: to myself to take care of myself. And if I
Speaker 2: do that, then what we see is we become healthier
Speaker 2: and stronger, and we're better for ourselves and for others.
Speaker 2: So the idea that a person is built or a
Speaker 2: person's role is to sacrifice for others is is not okay.
Speaker 1: No, it's just an outdated view. And I think that's
Speaker 1: why I loved so much talking and encouraging people to
Speaker 1: remember to choose themselves and in doing so, that is
Speaker 1: when we are more effective in a positive way in
Speaker 1: our world and in other people's lives. Yes, it's so
Speaker 1: beautiful what you're saying, and I fully appreciate all of this.
Speaker 1: Your book is dedicated to your daughters and everything that
Speaker 1: makes them smile. That's what it says. Why did you
Speaker 1: choose to include smiling in that dedication? And what does
Speaker 1: it have to do with what's going right?
Speaker 2: Often, if we're able to smile, if we're able to
Speaker 2: just feel good about something, that's a good symptom that
Speaker 2: things are really going right inside of us and we
Speaker 2: are all seeking we say happiness, because what does that mean?
Speaker 2: What does it mean to be governed by the generative drive?
Speaker 2: It means that we are finding peace, contentment, and delight
Speaker 2: in our lives. We can just be peaceful. We don't
Speaker 2: have to always be be thinking, doing, We can just
Speaker 2: be right. And contentment is being aware of ourselves, of
Speaker 2: our life stories, including the things that we are not
Speaker 2: happy about or the things that may even be tragic,
Speaker 2: but feeling okay about it. It's my life. I'm leading
Speaker 2: it as best I can. That I feel a sense
Speaker 2: of contentment with who I am in my life. And
Speaker 2: we all want to keep the capacity for delight. You know,
Speaker 2: we see delight in children where things can just light
Speaker 2: their faces up. We need to be that way as adults.
Speaker 2: So when I think I want to see them just
Speaker 2: anything that makes them smile makes me happy. That's what
Speaker 2: I feel inside of me is Okay, they're in healthy places.
Speaker 2: You know, they understand all the world that can tell
Speaker 2: us why we're bad or wrong or what's wrong with us,
Speaker 2: why we're not good enough. I think that hasn't gotten
Speaker 2: to them. They're they're healthy, they're balanced, and when something
Speaker 2: comes up to smile about, they can.
Speaker 1: Smile about it, celebrate it, celebrate that smile. So true,
Speaker 1: I can very much relate to that as a mom,
Speaker 1: as a parent, and I think that a lot of
Speaker 1: people will be able to understand that because that is
Speaker 1: like the ultimate food for our generative drive.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's both the ultimate food for it, and it's
Speaker 2: also the ultimate outcome of it, which is why when
Speaker 2: things are going right, and we really kind of double
Speaker 2: down on that. Right, if things are going right, let
Speaker 2: me figure out the things that aren't the way that
Speaker 2: I want them to be. Let's move those into the
Speaker 2: going right category too, And then we find that we
Speaker 2: can have an upcycle of goodness where we're finding more
Speaker 2: empower and agency and humility and gratitude, and the generative
Speaker 2: drive is governing us more and there's more piece contentment
Speaker 2: and delight, which helps us stay in balance and helps
Speaker 2: the generative drive, you know, be fueled. So you can
Speaker 2: see how we can end up at very good places,
Speaker 2: just as we can spiral downward. I mean, we know that,
Speaker 2: but we don't have to focus on that in a
Speaker 2: way that is so cynical or do oriented or fearful.
Speaker 2: We know that can happen to us. But we can
Speaker 2: also spiral upward up, and it's bad that we can control.
Speaker 1: I love that spiral upward. I never thought of that.
Speaker 1: I always, you know, my mind goes to, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: in a downward spiral, or yeah, it's catching you know,
Speaker 1: it's taking hold of me. But instead turn it into
Speaker 1: an upward spiral somehow. That's really important. Your your book
Speaker 1: offers at the at the end a lot of practices
Speaker 1: and questions. Why why do you think practicing is important?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the practicing is really the doing
Speaker 2: of it. That with physical health we want to understand.
Speaker 2: But then if we want more muscle mass, we have
Speaker 2: to go and work out, right, if we want more
Speaker 2: cardiovascular health, we have to you know, we have to
Speaker 2: do something that gets so hard pumping. So there is
Speaker 2: a doing of it, and the book is meant to
Speaker 2: be very practical that there may be people who seek
Speaker 2: outside of the book, you know, the help of others
Speaker 2: or the help of professionals. But the idea is that
Speaker 2: you can at least get a start, and maybe that
Speaker 2: start is what you need. Maybe it gets you there,
Speaker 2: right if you understand, and then you have a way
Speaker 2: of applying that understanding. So that's why it's designed to
Speaker 2: be very practical. And then, of course there are people
Speaker 2: who don't have access to mental health resources. So to
Speaker 2: have something that can both can both create understanding and
Speaker 2: then also say here are practical tools for making change.
Speaker 2: I hope, well, I believe in hope will be of
Speaker 2: help to people who then just don't have access to
Speaker 2: mental health resources and they're just going to be working
Speaker 2: from that. Yes.
Speaker 1: No, there's nothing worse than walking around life with an
Speaker 1: empty tool. It's so important to gain those tools, to
Speaker 1: find them, understand them, and then put them in your
Speaker 1: belt for later use, because we're definitely going to need
Speaker 1: them at some point, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: And to be using them. See I imagine some of
Speaker 2: the tools were in the belt, but the person's got
Speaker 2: a tool in each hand. And you know, that's how
Speaker 2: we want to be living, is have a lot of
Speaker 2: tools in that belt and use them, and then we'll
Speaker 2: see that upcycle of goodness in us.
Speaker 1: We'll see that upward spiral. Doctor Conti's book, What's Going Right,
Speaker 1: a powerful new method for optimizing your mental health, is
Speaker 1: available right now wherever you guys get your books. I
Speaker 1: highly recommend it. It's very interesting. Thank you so much,
Speaker 1: doctor Conti for spending this time with us.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me on. I
Speaker 2: appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It's been my pleasure.