1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dix Podcast. 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 2: Today, we're going to talk about a tough subject that 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 2: I think probably almost every family in the United States 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: has touched or been touched by in some way, and. 5 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: That is addiction. 6 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 2: Addiction comes in many different forms, and there's many different 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: things that people can be addicted to, but ultimately, too 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: often addiction ends in some sort of a tragedy or 9 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: jail time, and that's something we want to go through today. 10 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: We're going to talk to a few different people. Pat 11 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: Russ is with us. 12 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: She is a liberal university professor, and interestingly, we have 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 2: Christina Dent and she is a conservative, evangelical Christian, which 14 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 2: just goes to show that people who maybe have differences 15 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: when it comes to the political spectrum can come together 16 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: when it cause it when there's a problem that needs 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: to be solved. And both of these moms are working 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: to understand and solve addiction and overdose and I think 19 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: it's just great that they're willing to come together and 20 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 2: chat about this. First, I just want to remind you, 21 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 2: guys before we get into this about my partners at IFCJ. Remember, 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: since the terror attacks on October seventh, anti Semitism has 23 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: been on the rise, not just in Israel, but sadly 24 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: here at home as well and around the world. And 25 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: that's why I've partnered with the International Fellowship of Christians 26 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: and Jews. And today I'm coming to you, my audience, 27 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 2: to ask that you stand with us and IFCJ to 28 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: raise your voice just as Oscar Schindler and Carrie ten 29 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 2: Boom did. I'm sorry, Corey ten Boom. This pledge is 30 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: asking Christians to stand with their Jewish brothers and sisters, 31 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: to never be silent, to show the Jewish people they 32 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: are not alone, that they have God and Christians on 33 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 2: their side. So for the month of June, we're asking 34 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 2: Christians to sign this pledge, which will be delivered to 35 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: the President of Israel, to show that Christians in America 36 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: are not only standing in solidaria solidarity, but they're also 37 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: speaking up to So let's take a stand with the 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: International Fellowship of Christians and Jews to let the Jewish 39 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 2: people know they're not alone. If you want to sign 40 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,279 Speaker 2: the pledge, please go to support IFCJ dot org. Again 41 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: that support IFCJ dot org to take a stand today. 42 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: Now I want to bring in pat Rus because your 43 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 2: story I was reading about your story, and it is 44 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: so impactful and it reminds me of some things that 45 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: have happened in my own family. We talked a little 46 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 2: bit about before we started recording, but you lost your 47 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 2: son to a drug overdose. I think the most fascinating 48 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: part about your story was how young you realize that 49 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: he was suffering with anxiety. If you can just kind 50 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 2: of introduce that. 51 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 3: Sure, Alex was just the most wonderful son that you 52 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 3: could imagine, and he was just one of those kids 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 3: who laughed all the time and you just loved being around, 54 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 3: and we had so many friends. But when he was 55 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 3: twelve years old, he was diagnosed with anorexia, and it 56 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 3: came out of the blue. We had no inkling that 57 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: he was suffering from anything of the sort. And then 58 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 3: when he was twelve years old, he basically stopped eating. 59 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: And I think it's which is something that could be 60 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 3: a precursor or was, in Alex's case, a precursor to 61 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 3: addiction that he developed later on. But just it was 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: the sort of most normal thing. We were the most 63 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 3: you know, we were basically a good family, a normal family, 64 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden we had a son who 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: stopped eating, and we you know, as I was looking 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: back on it, I saw that he just stopped smiling. 67 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: You know, lots of pictures in our scrap books, like 68 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: everybody has scrap books, lots of pictures just to show 69 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: him laughing and sitting on his dad's lap, and he 70 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 3: had a wicked sense of humor. And then as I 71 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 3: looked back, he just stopped smiling. And we took him 72 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: to a eating disorder unit when he was twelve. He 73 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: spent months there, both inpatient and then out of patient, 74 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 3: and he got better. Behavioral therapy worked, and he came 75 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: back and we were a good family once more until 76 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 3: he started drinking and taking drugs later. And you can 77 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 3: sort of have a direct line from the kinds of 78 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 3: insecurities and anxiety that was overtaking him when he was 79 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: twelve and thirteen, and then later developed again once he 80 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 3: was in high school and in college, and then ended 81 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 3: up having the addiction issues that he had once he 82 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: got out of college. 83 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that you talk about the fact 84 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: that he learned about anorexia and bulimia at school and 85 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: came home and asked you about it, and then this 86 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: kind of sort of manifested in his own life, and 87 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: it was sort of when you see people that have anxiety, 88 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: they look for a way to have something they can control, 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: and we know that's kind of how anarexia and bulimia work. 90 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: We had a similar situation at school with my daughter. 91 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: She went to school and they started talking about germs. 92 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: This is before COVID, but just regular stuff that you 93 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: talk about in kindergarten, first grade, and they started talking 94 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 2: about germs, and she came home and she was asking 95 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: us how bad are germs? Like how much do I 96 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 2: need to worry about this? And I didn't think anything 97 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: of it, and then she started obsessively washing her hands 98 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: to the point where her hands were just like alligator 99 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 2: skined and it took We went to the doctor. We 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: tried to talk to her about it. You don't have 101 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 2: to be this concerned about it. But she definitely is 102 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 2: my anxious kid. So when I read that, I could 103 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: kind of, as a parent compare it in my own 104 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 2: life and I just kind of think, well, okay, but 105 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 2: if I see this, then what do I do to 106 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 2: make sure I'm watching I don't know how to because, 107 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: like I noticed, you said, probably five times we were 108 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 2: a good family. 109 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: And that's the thing. It doesn't discriminate. 110 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: Doesn't discriminate at all. We have heard so many good families, 111 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: so many of us are good families, and it just 112 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: happens to anyone. I always say that if it happened 113 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: to my family, it can happen to any family, across 114 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 3: the political spectrum, across the socioeconomic spectrum. I mean, to 115 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 3: hear you talk about your daughter, this is exactly how 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 3: it started with Alex. He was worried about mad cow 117 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 3: disease and my husband studied studies worst cases, and that 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: was one of the things he studied, and he started 119 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 3: worrying about it, West Nile virus. These are the things 120 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 3: that he started worrying about at a very young age. 121 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: So you know, we knew then that he was anxious 122 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 3: and he was subject to those kinds of issues. But 123 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 3: you never know whether or not it will develop into 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: something more serious. But I think the one thing that 125 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: I really want your listeners to know is that it 126 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 3: could happen to any family. And so just I think, 127 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 3: you know, as a sociologist, I tell people think about 128 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: those larger systemic issues, psychological issues, socioeconomic issues, and determine 129 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 3: whether or not these are issues that could be affecting 130 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: your family and be aware of them, because it really 131 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: could happen to any family. 132 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: And you talk about how inexpensive is to get heroin 133 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: and fentanyl, and that also shocks me. 134 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: Christina. 135 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 2: I want to bring you in because I think that 136 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: your perspective was interesting before you knew, because you were 137 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: a foster mom of a baby who had a drug 138 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: addicted mother, and I just the way you describe it 139 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: as she ran up to the baby for the first 140 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: meeting and kissed the baby all over, and you thought, 141 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: this is not what I thought drug addiction was. I 142 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: thought drug addiction was kind of like a selfish thing. 143 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: You went off on your own. You didn't have love, 144 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: you didn't go after your young people around you and care. 145 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: It was just like that wasn't the person that becomes 146 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: drug addicted. And you found out what we were just saying, 147 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 2: It can happen to anyone, and you kind of came 148 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 2: together on this journey and you found that this is 149 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: a beautiful woman that had a vice that had controlled 150 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: her for many, many years. Tell us a little bit 151 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 2: about that journey from the perspective of someone who. 152 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: Was like, oh, this is all I think. 153 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 2: You said, people do drugs, and a pregnant mother who 154 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: does drugs must be the worst, and you really got 155 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: a lesson that that's not the case, right. 156 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: Yes, I did, Yes, I did. Yeah. 157 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 4: You know, I grew up. I've been a lifelong Mississippian 158 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 4: and grew up in a conservative Christian home. Continued that 159 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 4: trajectory in my adult life as well, and those values, 160 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 4: and so I just grew up with that way of thinking. 161 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 4: You just make good decisions and don't get involved with drugs, 162 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 4: and then bad things won't happen to you. It's not 163 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: that I couldn't see some nuances in other parts of life, 164 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 4: but I did not see them in this area, and 165 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 4: so I really did kind of carry on that bad 166 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 4: people use drugs, you know, worst people become addicted to them. 167 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 4: When we became foster parents. 168 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: I couldn't. 169 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 4: I was a mom myself at that point, and I 170 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 4: could not understand how a mom who loved their child 171 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 4: could be using drugs while they were pregnant. I had 172 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 4: no category for that. And part of that case from 173 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 4: the way that we've handled drug use primarily has been 174 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 4: through the criminal justice system. It has been if someone's 175 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 4: using drugs, they should be arrested and put in jail. 176 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: That's what they need. 177 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 4: They need that sort of adult version of a hard spanking. 178 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 4: This is a behavior issue. This is a choice. You know, 179 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: they're making bad choices, and if we just make life 180 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 4: painful for them, they'll stop making those bad choices and 181 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 4: kind of shape up and act right. And So when 182 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 4: we became foster parents and we got the call that 183 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 4: we were going to be fostering this baby whose mom 184 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: had been struggling with an addiction while she was pregnant, 185 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 4: I didn't have any other way of understanding that other 186 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 4: than she falls into that category. And yet, like you said, 187 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: when I met her, she showed me this overwhelming love 188 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: for her child. It wasn't just a one time experience. 189 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 3: You know. 190 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 4: After that day when when she met him for the 191 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 4: first time since he had been removed from her custody, 192 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 4: which was straight from the hospital, he never went home 193 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 4: with her after the hospital. He came straight to our house. 194 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 4: She went to in patient drug treatment. She had been 195 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 4: using for about twenty years at this point, and she 196 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 4: would call me and she'd ask me about him. She 197 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 4: got one phone call a day. She could call me, 198 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: and she'd asked me to put her on speaker phone 199 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 4: and she would sing to him over the phone. I 200 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,079 Speaker 4: can be standing in my kitchen listening to her singing 201 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 4: Jesus Loves Me to her son, and that wrestling in 202 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 4: me between what I've always thought about people like her 203 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 4: and what I'm actually seeing lived out because she allowed 204 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 4: me to see that. She allowed me to see this 205 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 4: struggle in her own life of simultaneously deeply loving her 206 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 4: son and wanting to be there for him and struggling 207 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 4: with this addiction that she had struggled with for many years. 208 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 4: And that was the beginning for me of separating those 209 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 4: things in my mind to say, can this can exist 210 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 4: in the same person. This isn't an. 211 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: Addiction. 212 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 4: Isn't the result of this sort of moral corruption in 213 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 4: a person. They just don't care, They just want to 214 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 4: be bad. They just don't care about hurting the people 215 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 4: around them. This is much different because she desperately wanted 216 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 4: to be there for him. She had wanted to be 217 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 4: a mother her whole life, thought she would never be 218 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 4: able to be a mom, and when she had a baby, 219 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 4: even though she desperately wanted him, she still could not 220 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 4: be that addiction at the time, and so that started 221 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 4: me on a learning journey. Pat's learning journey took her 222 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 4: kind of in a from a very different starting point, 223 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 4: and we've ended up at the same kind of solutions point, 224 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 4: even though we come from, like you said, very different 225 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: backgrounds and ways of thinking about the world and all 226 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 4: of those things. And yet when we started to dig 227 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 4: in and look at what works and what doesn't work, 228 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 4: we've both become convinced. And she writes about it in 229 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 4: her book Surviving Alex about this is the reason these 230 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 4: solutions haven't worked for us is because we have miscategorized 231 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 4: this issue of drug use and addiction. We have seen 232 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: it as this moral issue that needed discipline rather than 233 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 4: a very complex health issue, maybe spiritual issue. There might 234 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 4: be all kinds of things wrapped up into that mental 235 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 4: health issue that will not be solved by increasing the 236 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: amount of pain and disconnection and trauma in a person's 237 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 4: life through and arrest and all of the things that 238 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 4: tend to follow that. 239 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: It's so interesting because in all the stories that I've 240 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: heard about people that have gone through addiction and drug addiction, 241 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: there's never been a lack of love. There's been actually 242 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: an abundance of love from not only the person who's addicted, 243 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: who feels this tremendous gait, guilt and pain, but also 244 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 2: the family around them who is desperate to save them 245 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: and bring them back. 246 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,119 Speaker 1: So, Pat just going. 247 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 2: To you with this question, what do you think if 248 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: it's not that we put folks in jail, which I 249 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: believe that has not helped in it. As one of 250 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 2: you mentioned in one of your stories, is that the 251 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: drugs are available in the prison too, what do you 252 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 2: think the solution is going forward? 253 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 3: I think it's so important to recognize that our conventional 254 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 3: approaches are really wrong. And you know, I think about it. 255 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 3: The way most people think about drug addiction is that 256 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 3: it's a choice. And I think Christina and I believe 257 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: so deeply to our soul that this is not the 258 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: correct way to think about it. And people think about 259 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 3: it as well as a brain disease. You know, the 260 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: idea that it's compulsion that we once we take that 261 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: one hit, you know that it's people are gone. You know, 262 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: they might as well just give up. And it's not 263 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 3: that it's not the case at all. It's really about 264 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: of all those people who take drugs, only ten percent 265 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: get addicted. So that's such a small one in ten 266 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: people get addicted, And so I really think about it 267 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 3: as being the context in which we make our decision. Right. 268 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: I never say, I would never say that that individual 269 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: choice is not important, But I do believe, and I'm 270 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 3: trained to believe, that those decisions get made within a 271 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 3: particular context. And that context really takes into account systemic 272 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 3: issues that sometimes are out of our control, psychological issues, 273 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 3: socioeconomic issues like unemployment and racism, and those kinds of 274 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 3: factors that really are around us when we are making 275 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: those kinds of decisions. So I think it's really really 276 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 3: important to take into account those systemic factors that affect 277 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: the decisions that we made, that we make on a 278 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: daily basis. 279 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 280 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. Do you think that, I mean, 281 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: your son went into what almost well, thirteen different programs, correct, 282 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: was it thirteen twelve twelve? 283 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 3: He would have he was on his way to his thirteenth, 284 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: but he refused entry and came back riding New Jersey 285 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 3: Transit right past our house and ended up in Newark. 286 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 3: And so I think that the kinds of choices people 287 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: have nowadays about what to do about addiction are so 288 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: much more than just a decade ago. Right, a decade ago, 289 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: Alex was an active addiction and the only strategies that 290 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: were available were twelve step programs, which worked well for 291 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: some people. Some of Alex's friends and people that I 292 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 3: met along my journey went to twelve step programs and 293 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: they totally believe in it and good, you know, I'm 294 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 3: happy for them. But it doesn't work for everybody. So 295 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 3: I think we need to think in terms of multiple 296 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: paths to recovery. And the other thing that I really 297 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: want to emphasize here is that our treatment systems are 298 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 3: really broken, and the problem is is that people don't 299 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: sometimes treatment programs. More often than not, treatment programs don't 300 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 3: allow for medications. So methodone, I'm sure you've heard about 301 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 3: a MOUD medications for opioid use disorder and sybox on right. 302 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 3: Most of these medications are MAPP is another one you 303 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 3: hear a lot about, are not available in treatment programs. 304 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 3: For all the twelve programs that Alex was at, he 305 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: never once had access to medication. And research suggests very 306 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: strongly nowadays that medication works, So we should be using 307 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:57,439 Speaker 3: those and we should be doing effectiveness evaluations of treatment programs. 308 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 3: None of the programs that Alex was was in had 309 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 3: effectiveness training so for evaluation. So these are things that 310 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 3: are just kind of clear cut, obvious strategies that we 311 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 3: need to make. There are programs that do very well 312 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 3: that are treatment programs for physicians and nurses, and some 313 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 3: of the figures that I've heard is that seventy eighty 314 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 3: percent of those programs work and they were they're very effective. Well, 315 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 3: you know, so where were they when Alex was in? 316 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 3: Weren't was in treatment programs? Right? 317 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: And I would argue where are they now? 318 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 2: Because I've had people in my life who have gone 319 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 2: taken their people from one place to the next place, 320 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 2: and then one place says they get so far and 321 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: they say, oh, we can't help them. We would recommend 322 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: this place, and then that place is out ignormously expensive. 323 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: They can't afford it. There's no way to get this covered. 324 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: There's no help. People talk about mental health care, but 325 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: when you're talking about addiction, there's nobody covering that costs. 326 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: There's no help for people in this. 327 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: I mean, well, that's what the people I've experienced, The 328 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,959 Speaker 2: people I know how have experienced this. They've struggled with 329 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: the financial cost of addiction. Is that something that you've 330 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 2: also experienced. 331 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'll let Christina jump in on this as well. 332 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 3: But we know there has been on the book since 333 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 3: two thousand and eight a parity legislation which is honored 334 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: more in the breach than in anything else. Between physical 335 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 3: health and mental health and substance used, right, those two 336 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 3: are together, and yet many many states do not really 337 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 3: address this issue. Not to mention the lack of really 338 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: sufficient insurance. I always say insurance should be a right, 339 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: not a privilege, and everybody, every American, should have insurance 340 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: that covers physical as well as mental health and substance use. Christina, 341 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: you made. 342 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 4: Well, it's an interesting part of this. So we had 343 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 4: a conference with the nonprofit that I worked for, Ended 344 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 4: for Good last year, and one of our speakers was 345 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 4: Colleen Cowells, who is an attorney, also had sons who 346 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 4: struggled with addiction, and she really got interested in this 347 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 4: financial aspect of it because she's an estate planning attorney 348 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 4: and she began to realize that so many of her 349 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 4: clients were having their net worth decreased in their retirement years, 350 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 4: and she started looking into it of why this was, 351 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 4: and it was because so many of them had children 352 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 4: or grandchildren that were struggling with addiction, and they were 353 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 4: funding tens of thousands of dollars worth of treatment, and 354 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 4: then that was just for one and then that person 355 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,439 Speaker 4: would come back, they might relapse, they go try another one. 356 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 4: A couple, you know, ten twenty thirty forty thousand dollars 357 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:00,160 Speaker 4: more paid out of pocket if insurance wasn't paying for it. 358 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 4: It's a significant cost issue. I was talking with a 359 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 4: doctor and I was telling him a story of a 360 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 4: mom who had called me and said, you know, we 361 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 4: did everything for our daughter. She struggled with a heroin addiction. 362 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 4: She had everything in life, heard her husband were both 363 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 4: very successful in their careers. We sent her to the 364 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 4: best treatment place as possible, and she said, but I 365 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 4: would never send her anywhere that would give her medication 366 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 4: for her addiction. I don't believe in that. And I 367 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 4: was asking the doctor what he thought about that, because 368 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 4: he's an addiction specialist, and he said, he said, you 369 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 4: know that it just makes me sad because they might 370 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 4: have sent her to the most extensive places. But if 371 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 4: they did not offer medication as an option. They weren't 372 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 4: the best in terms of outcomes. If you're looking at 373 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 4: outcomes what Pat was talking about that evaluation, what's actually working, 374 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 4: not what they just tell you they're going to do, 375 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 4: but what's the outcome of that is really what we 376 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 4: need to be looking for. And I would imagine there's 377 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 4: a lot of families who are feeling like they are 378 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 4: underwater it's trying to walk with a loved one through addiction. 379 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 4: Really encourage people to look into something called CRAFT. It's 380 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 4: community reinforcement and family training. It's offered nationally by an 381 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 4: organization called Allies and Recovery. We're not connected to them 382 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 4: in any way. I just think they do great work, 383 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 4: but they offer online training skills groups. 384 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:18,920 Speaker 1: It's a way of. 385 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 4: Interacting with your loved one that has been researched. It 386 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 4: has proven to improve the health of the family as 387 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 4: well as it actually improves the likelihood that their loved 388 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 4: one will make positive changes in their life and eventually 389 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 4: reach out and get help for their addiction. So if 390 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 4: people feel like they are just looking for a life, 391 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 4: RAFT would really encourage them to go check out Alice 392 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 4: and Recovery and get trained in the Craft method. 393 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 3: For a lot of people, it. 394 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 4: Has given them some hope and some stability in what 395 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 4: can be an incredibly challenging environment of trying to walk 396 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 4: with a loved one through addiction. 397 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: Do you think it's kind of a natural. 398 00:22:55,080 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 3: Underscore that craft? It's just excellent and getting exist when 399 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 3: I was going through that and I wish it had. 400 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: Do you think that it's kind of a natural fear? 401 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 2: Though? And Pat, maybe this is for you to think 402 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: that if your child is addicted to a substance, that 403 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 2: putting them on a medication may get them addicted to 404 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 2: another substance. And I say that because I think if 405 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: there are people out there listening, they may want to 406 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: understand why that is helpful, because you know, you hear 407 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: meth and you're like, oh, well they're going to go 408 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: from this to meth, and that's got to be something worse, right, 409 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 2: But it's not that it's getting them off of How 410 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 2: does it exactly work to kind of break that down 411 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: in people's minds who are going, no. 412 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: No, I don't want them on a different med. 413 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,479 Speaker 3: No, not myth, you don't want them on myth, but 414 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 3: MA or methadone, Right, methadone is not the same thing 415 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: as meth. Right, Meth is another kind of drug one 416 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: does not want to be addicted to. But methadone is 417 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: a long proven resource that's been available for decades and 418 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 3: the problem nowadays is that meth is not as readily 419 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: available as we would like it to be. Right. But 420 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 3: it's not just methadone, right, it's Syboxon the longest period 421 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 3: of time that Alex was ever sober was when he 422 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 3: was on suboxone. So that works. But all of the medications, 423 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 3: medication assisted treatment, those are those are the kind of 424 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 3: medicines that are that are really work and scientists have 425 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: established those as being medications that really work. And so 426 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: we have to believe in the science in this way 427 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: and saying if scientists have h have proven, have established 428 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 3: that they work, that we need to give our kids 429 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 3: or not just kids, it's but you know, we're talking 430 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: about addiction to alcohol as well, So we're talking about 431 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 3: moms and dads and you know, brothers and sisters and 432 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 3: lots and lots of people who are addicted and have 433 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 3: history as of addiction. So you know, and there are 434 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 3: other there are other kinds of strategies that we don't 435 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: know about UH, such as a friend of mine UH 436 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 3: has talked about UH. And the FDA recently approved a 437 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 3: procedure that is called net an e T and it's 438 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: being it's being evaluated right now, but it's already been 439 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: approved for by the FDA for use. And UH there's 440 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 3: a small little rehab in Kentucky that's actually doing these 441 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 3: studies and UH it sounds remarkable. I saw a documentary 442 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 3: on it, and UH, at the end of the documentary, 443 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 3: I was furious and crying because here was a strategy 444 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: that's been around for decades and they can't find people 445 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: because they can't find a kind of financial incentive that 446 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 3: would get people to try this strategy. 447 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 4: And I think part of what's important for people, especially 448 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 4: family members, to really try to look at full in 449 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 4: the face is what are the options. So it might 450 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 4: be that they would prefer that their child was not 451 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 4: using any substance at all, medication, nothing. I mean, I 452 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 4: think I resonate with that. I have teenagers myself, so 453 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 4: you know that thought of like I just I don't 454 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 4: want them using anything, but what we have are better 455 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 4: and worse outcomes that can happen. And for one hundred 456 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 4: thousand families a year. Right now, that outcome is a 457 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 4: funeral home instead of any opportunity for their loved one 458 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 4: to be able to continue down a path of recovery, 459 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 4: even if it takes them longer to find it. And so, 460 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 4: you know, another friend of mine lost her son to 461 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 4: an overdose and she went to a doctor to get 462 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 4: medication for him, to get the box in for him, 463 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 4: and the doctor yelled at her and he said, do 464 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 4: you realize your son could be on this for the 465 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 4: rest of his life? And while she was trying to 466 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 4: find a doctor to prescribe it, her son relapsed to 467 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 4: use drugs he bought off the street, contaminated, couldn't dose 468 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 4: them appropriately, and passed away. And so she says, now, 469 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 4: what was the the option? There was? Sure he could 470 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 4: be taking medication. People take medication for all kinds of things. 471 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 4: Long term, he would be alive. Wouldn't I much rather 472 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 4: have my son alive and just taking a medication like 473 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 4: many people take medications, And oftentimes those medications allow people 474 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 4: to not have to deal with the cravings that they're 475 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: experiencing for the drug they're addicted to, which allows them 476 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 4: to have enough mental space and physical calmness to be 477 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 4: able to rebuild a life outside of that chaotic substance 478 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: use that they might be engaged in. So thinking about 479 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 4: it more as how can we help people take stare steps? 480 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 4: How can we kind of let go of this quantum 481 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 4: leave idea that someone is going to go yesterday chaotic 482 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 4: addiction and this morning they're going to wake up and 483 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 4: they're going to be employed and abstinate and healthy family relationships. 484 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 4: That's what we want, That's what a lot of our 485 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 4: treatment models have been built on. Is making this shift 486 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 4: incredibly rapidly. We know the vast majority of people about 487 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 4: ninety percent, will relapse who try an abstinence based approach, 488 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 4: and so how do we help fewer of them die 489 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 4: when they have that experience? Well, medication can be a 490 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: part of that journey to really help people stay alive 491 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 4: and be able to build that thriving life back. 492 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 493 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: a Tutor Dixon podcast. 494 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: Families who are listening right now and they're at that 495 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: point where they say, I need something, I need something 496 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 2: to know that I can that this person has a 497 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: chance at recovery. Give us some success stories of what 498 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: recovery looks like because even now listening to this, I 499 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 2: think some people might say, well, it's recovery, just that 500 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: they're always still struggling, that they can never get a job, 501 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 2: They're just on a different medication. 502 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: What does true recovery look like? 503 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 4: This makes me think about to Beckham with the baby 504 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 4: that we fostered. His mom, Joanne is the one who 505 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 4: really changed my heart and sent me on this learning 506 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 4: journey that ended up changing my mind as I read research. 507 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 4: And we went to his one year old birthday party. 508 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 4: She had been sober since. 509 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: He was a baby. 510 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 4: He's yeah, eight years old now. But we went to 511 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 4: his one year old birthday party and we sat down 512 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 4: across from one of her family members who had been 513 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 4: part of her family this whole twenty year chaotic journey 514 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 4: of her drug use since she was thirteen or fourteen 515 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 4: when she started using. And she looked at me, her 516 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: family member did, and you know, here was Joanne and 517 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 4: Beckham and we're celebrating rale, eating pizza and ice cream 518 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 4: together and seeing happy birday. And she looked across the 519 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 4: table and she said, can you believe that we're here? 520 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 4: This is unbelievable that's not just Joanne. It is possible. 521 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 4: It took her a long time to find that journey. 522 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 4: I just met someone at a conference a couple weeks 523 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 4: ago who went to treatment nineteen times before he was 524 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 4: able to find a pathway to recovery. He's now rebuilt 525 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 4: his relationship with his son and is working in helping 526 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 4: other people find recovery. So it is possible. It often 527 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 4: takes time. It is not something that is easy to overcome. 528 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 4: But we know research wise that many people recover. Many 529 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 4: people recover even if they don't go to treatment, if 530 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 4: we can keep them alive long enough to reach that 531 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 4: point where they're able to get some perspective in their 532 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 4: life and be able to make some different choices. It 533 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 4: can be really hard to wait out for a family, 534 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 4: but it is possible. Joanne has been sober now for 535 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 4: eight years after twenty years of using. She's parenting her son. 536 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 4: He's an extraordinary little drummer. He drums with bands all 537 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 4: over their region in northern Mississippi at eight years old, 538 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 4: and they're doing wonderfully. That's no guaranteed outcome, but it 539 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 4: could only happen because she was able to find that 540 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 4: path of recovery, and she didn't end up in prison 541 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 4: or jail while he was growing up without her, and 542 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 4: she was able to have that health centered approach to 543 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 4: her addiction and they've been able to build a life 544 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 4: that is really just remarkable and beautiful. 545 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, Christina, that's so true, because we do 546 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 3: know that people age out of addiction and the statistics 547 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 3: show that. And so I mean Alex Steyde when he 548 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 3: was twenty five years old, his prefrontal cortex was not 549 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 3: fully developed, and you know, he was a remarkable kid. 550 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 3: What could he be doing now? Right? And so I 551 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 3: end my book with a counterfactual inquiry, which is something 552 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 3: that historians do, and I say, what, you know, what 553 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: would our journey look like if, in fact, we lived 554 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 3: in a compassionate harm reduction world as opposed to the 555 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 3: punishment criminal justice kind of strategy that we've been living 556 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 3: in for so many years through the War on drugs, 557 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: which we've you know, which was has never been found 558 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,440 Speaker 3: to be successful. And you know, I look at that 559 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 3: and I think, oh my god, you know, oh my gosh. 560 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: You know, if we could have lived in a harm 561 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: reduction world that was compassionate, and you know, would have 562 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 3: given him more time to address his issues, his psychological issues, 563 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 3: his substance use issues. You know, I still think. I 564 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 3: say in my book that if I could that I 565 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 3: think if I had to, if I was able to 566 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 3: do it over again, and I lived in such a world, 567 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 3: I would do things differently. But back ten years ago, 568 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 3: right there weren't the kind of strategies that exist now. 569 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: And so I recommend that people look at and follow 570 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 3: up on the kind of strategies that Christina's talking about. 571 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 3: I have a section of my book that gives resources, 572 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 3: and on my web page patroost dot com, I give resources. 573 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 3: Then I recommend that people take a look at and 574 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 3: it is you know, it has gotten better. It's still 575 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 3: problematic in a lot of ways. But there are available 576 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: resources that didn't exist when I was going through this. 577 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: I was a college professor and I was really good 578 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 3: at research, and I couldn't find the right kind of 579 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 3: treatment programs because they didn't really exist back then. And 580 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 3: so there are strategies now and people should take advantage 581 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,439 Speaker 3: of them and learn what they are and follow them 582 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 3: and follow you know, there are good web pages available now, 583 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 3: moms for all paths to recovery is a great one. 584 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 3: There's a lot of other ones as well, and I 585 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 3: encourage people to I learn, you know, every time I 586 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 3: go on the Mom's page, I learned something different, and 587 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: so I really encourage people to do that as well. 588 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 2: I think it's amazing that you stay involved, that you 589 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 2: keep doing this, because I do think that there are 590 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 2: so many parents out there that feel alone in having 591 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 2: someone that fully understands it is so important to have 592 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 2: somebody that can at least show you the path they 593 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 2: walked and what path that you will maybe walk, or 594 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 2: how to walk a different path with your own child. 595 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: I have seen it seems like there's been an influence 596 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 2: from folks like you in government, because I will say 597 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 2: just having had major surgery in twenty fifteen, and then 598 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 2: my last major surgery was in twenty nineteen, I in 599 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen went home from the hospital with a giant 600 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 2: bottle of pills of opioids I would never in my 601 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 2: life get through. And then the surgery that same surgery 602 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 2: I had in twenty nineteen, I went home with a 603 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 2: few like big Yberprofen. They were like the giant horse pills, 604 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: but still just Iyberprofen and I was fine and it 605 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: just like those little changes that you see in how 606 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: doctors are prescribing. It feels like that's coming from I've 607 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 2: talked to even doctors who've been like, we've been working 608 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 2: with Congress to try to change things. And so I 609 00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 2: want people to know that the work that you do 610 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 2: is so important and that if other people get involved, 611 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 2: it helps to move these things forward, and not just 612 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 2: moving something like that forward. But also you talk about 613 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,919 Speaker 2: incarceration and Christina, I think you make such a good 614 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 2: point about Joanne. What if she had been put in 615 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 2: prison and her son then doesn't have the benefit of 616 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: knowing her, this woman who runs up to her baby 617 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 2: boy and kisses him all over even as she's struggling. 618 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 2: That is not the right answer. And to your point, 619 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 2: I don't think I realized that either, And as I 620 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 2: saw some of these people being let out of prisons 621 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 2: and saying, was it the best thing to put them 622 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: in prison for this drug charge? 623 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: Is there another answer? 624 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 2: Man? Without people like you, we don't get to know, 625 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,759 Speaker 2: we don't even get to talk about. 626 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 4: It, and without people like you, we don't get an 627 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,240 Speaker 4: opportunity to come and talk about it. So really thankful 628 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 4: for that. I think people don't recognize the power of 629 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 4: their voices. People who are made making the decisions are listening. 630 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 4: They're listening to the people around them. They're listening to 631 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 4: their constituents. If they're an elected official, They're trying to 632 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 4: put their finger on what path should we be taking 633 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 4: here in Mississippi, we often have legislation that's put forward 634 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 4: to increase penalty. So as fentanyl came in, there was legislation, 635 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 4: let's increase penalty, you know, penalties for fentanyl possession. And instead, 636 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 4: what Mississippi's legislature did last year was, instead of passing 637 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:35,360 Speaker 4: legislation to increase criminal penalties, they passed legislation to legalize 638 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,400 Speaker 4: fentanyl testing strips so that people who were going to 639 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 4: use a drug that they had bought from a non 640 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 4: pharmaceutical entity so they didn't really know what was in it, 641 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 4: they could test it and know whether or not it 642 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 4: was going to be contaminated. And the legislature passed that unanimously, 643 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 4: went to the governor's desk. Mississippi is a very conservative, 644 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 4: very religious state, and we have been able to make 645 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 4: this mental shift away from the answer to this problem 646 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 4: is going to be more people in prison, and the 647 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 4: answer is not going to be that. It's going to 648 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 4: be How can we think about saving lives? How can 649 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 4: we think about helping more people have the best opportunity 650 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 4: to live a productive and thriving life. So you've seen 651 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 4: in some states like Michigan last year did a huge 652 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 4: automatic expungement program. Maryland just did it for cannabis just 653 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 4: a week or two ago from some of those convictions 654 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,280 Speaker 4: of in Maryland. It was a pardon, not a full expungement, 655 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 4: but beginning to think about even like the workforce impact 656 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 4: of so many people with criminal records for low level 657 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 4: drug charges. And you know, on the one hand, I 658 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 4: think about kind of the messaging I grew up hearing 659 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 4: and it was like, well, look, you know, you make 660 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 4: your bed and you got to lie in it. You 661 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,399 Speaker 4: made a bad decision, you got to pay for it. Well, 662 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 4: how long do people have to pay for that? How 663 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 4: much do the rest of us want to pay for it? 664 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 4: Because here in Mississippi, one in four adults has a 665 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,720 Speaker 4: criminal record of some kind. We are not that dangerous 666 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 4: of a state to live in, but we have had 667 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 4: this over reliance on the criminal justice system to try 668 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 4: to solve all of our problems. That's not just here, 669 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 4: that's everywhere. America has had a long history of relying 670 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 4: on the criminal justice system for issues that it's not 671 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 4: well suited to deal with and actually can create a 672 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 4: lot of issues when it tries to deal with that. 673 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 4: And so we think about, Okay, how is this going 674 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 4: to impact people's ability to provide for themselves and their families. 675 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 4: That's a high value. How is it going to impact 676 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 4: parents in the home raising their children? Another value? We want, 677 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 4: We want families to be intact. 678 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: So I think you mentioned the trusting strips, and that 679 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: to me is interesting because it just goes to show 680 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 2: that if people are willing to use that they don't 681 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,720 Speaker 2: actually want to die. And I think too many people 682 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 2: believe that, well, if you're out there doing drugs, you 683 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 2: don't care if you live or die. But you know interesting, 684 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,760 Speaker 2: One of my relatives worked at a clinic health clinic 685 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 2: in Kentucky and in the mornings they would often find 686 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 2: people in the parking lot. 687 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:07,399 Speaker 1: Oh deed, in the parking lot. 688 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 2: They took the drugs there because they knew doctors would 689 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: come in the morning, And it just goes to show 690 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 2: that they didn't want to die. They had an addiction 691 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 2: it was a demon. They couldn't fight it, but they 692 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 2: didn't want to die. And I think that's powerful. 693 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, How can we shift to thinking about that 694 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 4: number one issue? How can we keep them alive? How 695 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 4: can we help more people stay alive? A father and 696 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 4: I tell his full story over a couple of chapters 697 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,000 Speaker 4: in my book Curious. He says, you know, he also 698 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 4: lost his son to an overdose. And he says, you know, 699 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 4: when you have to look at what's possible full in 700 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 4: the face, when you have to realize I really could 701 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 4: lose my loved one, you begin to realize there's a 702 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 4: whole lot of options that you might not have considered 703 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 4: before that begin to look really compelling. Because when you 704 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 4: think that the worst that could happen is just you know, 705 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 4: they make another bad decision, they use again. Well, then 706 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 4: you know, for him, it was I'm going to yell 707 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 4: at my son. I'm going to tell him how much 708 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 4: he's disappointing the family. I mean, that's just very common 709 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 4: because we think of this as a behavior problem that 710 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 4: needs correction. And he said, you know what, I wouldn't 711 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,720 Speaker 4: give to go back now and handle my son's addiction differently. 712 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 4: Now that I understand it much better. And for parents 713 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 4: who haven't yet had that experience, they haven't lost their 714 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: child yet, there's still time to shift that approach, to 715 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 4: understand what's really going on with their child, and to 716 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 4: look at the solutions, whether they're policy solutions or familial 717 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 4: solutions of how you handle it inside of your family, 718 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,760 Speaker 4: that can really reduce harm, that can really save lives. 719 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 4: We need to be open, and I think that's what 720 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 4: Pat's goal in writing Surviving Alex and my goal in 721 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 4: writing Curious was to say, there's other solutions out there. 722 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 4: Let's look at them quickly, because we can save more lives. 723 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,359 Speaker 4: We can help more people survive that addiction and come 724 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 4: out the other side and be able to contribute and 725 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 4: all the amazing ways that they're able to. 726 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: To this world. 727 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 4: We need them, we want them. We do not want 728 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,240 Speaker 4: to lose more people. 729 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 2: I think that's key is how to look at it quickly, 730 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 2: because I feel like when parents and loved ones are 731 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 2: going through this, they always feel like that clock is ticking, 732 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 2: like that bomb can go off at any moment, and 733 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 2: they're chasing. 734 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,760 Speaker 1: It's a race against time. What's going to get them first? 735 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 2: And so if you can both tell people where to 736 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,640 Speaker 2: get your books, and then how else to support you 737 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 2: or to find those resources before we go. 738 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:34,760 Speaker 1: That would be great. 739 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 3: Sure, I'll start so I can buy Surviving Alex anywhere 740 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 3: you buy books, and definitely, when you have the book, 741 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,919 Speaker 3: take a look at that resources section, because I think 742 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 3: that's the thing. I spent a long time making sure 743 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,919 Speaker 3: that that was available, because every day that I sat 744 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 3: down and wrote my book, I was thinking about people 745 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,720 Speaker 3: like me, right, people like me who are still going 746 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 3: through this and still dealing with the insanity of addiction 747 00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,080 Speaker 3: or what I ended up calling the carousel ride from hell. 748 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 3: Like nobody who is in that position wants to be 749 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 3: in that position, not the person who's doing drugs, but 750 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 3: the families in particular. You know, the families are so 751 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 3: at loss about what to do, and so I just 752 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 3: think that people want. I want those moms and dads 753 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 3: and to be to know they're scene right, that somebody 754 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,720 Speaker 3: sees them, because when I went through that, I felt 755 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:49,879 Speaker 3: so alone that there was really nobody, no medical facility, 756 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 3: you know, nobody who was really doing much to help me. 757 00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 3: Certainly not treatment programs and certainly not psychiatric hospitals. But 758 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 3: I want my book to be something that that that 759 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 3: I don't want to really lambast all of these programs. 760 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 3: I want to say, we can all do better. And 761 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,240 Speaker 3: that's what I would love it if my book could 762 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 3: help psychiatric hospitals and treatment programs and do better and 763 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,319 Speaker 3: moms and dads and family members to know that they're 764 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,680 Speaker 3: not alone. 765 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely. You can get a copy of Curious on Amazon. 766 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 4: And it's just my it's my learning journey growing up 767 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 4: here in Mississippi. It's written as a memoir, includes a 768 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 4: lot of other people's stories that takes people on this 769 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 4: this learning journey of how I completely shifted my my 770 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 4: thinking on this the solutions that would best align with 771 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 4: my values as a conservative Christian, and they're not the 772 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,279 Speaker 4: ones I thought I would end at. But the book 773 00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 4: takes people on that that journey and what I think 774 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,840 Speaker 4: is a hopeful path forward. And you can see the 775 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 4: rest of our work at end it for Good dot com. 776 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 4: And it for Good is a nonprofit I started after 777 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 4: I just became really passionate that we can really help 778 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:11,720 Speaker 4: a lot more people if we change how we approach 779 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 4: drugs and addiction. 780 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:13,960 Speaker 1: Well, I just love that. 781 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 2: I love the fact that you say that your mind 782 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,160 Speaker 2: changed and you saw things differently. I think right now, 783 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 2: we live in this society that is black and white, 784 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 2: and you're either on this side or you're on that side. 785 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,040 Speaker 2: And to see both of you come together and say, hey, 786 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,399 Speaker 2: you know what, we can meet in the middle. There's 787 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,640 Speaker 2: different ways we can approach different people and different problems. 788 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: It's just very refreshing. So thank you both for being 789 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: here today. 790 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for doing it right. Christina, Yes, absolutely try 791 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 3: to breach that political divide and to get people talking 792 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 3: about it, focusing on this issue that is so important 793 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:50,319 Speaker 3: to each of us. 794 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 2: There's really I say all the time, and we talk 795 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 2: about it here all the time. 796 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 1: We're really not that far apart on most things. 797 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,799 Speaker 2: Like most Americans, our core values are very but we 798 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,400 Speaker 2: get torn apart by these you know. It's like infotainment 799 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 2: can make us want to, oh, I want to be 800 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 2: on this side, I want to be on that side. 801 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,680 Speaker 1: And then you get really entrenched in ideas. 802 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,120 Speaker 2: So Pat Russ and Christina Den, thank you for coming 803 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 2: together and not letting yourself get entrenched on one side. 804 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: I just really appreciate it. 805 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 2: Thank you too, Thanks for having us absolutely, and thank 806 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 2: you all for joining us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. 807 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 2: Check out Tutor dixonpodcast dot com or iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 808 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts. You can subscribe right there 809 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 2: and join us next time on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. 810 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: Have a blessing,