1
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't come to stuff.

2
00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:20,279
Speaker 1: I've never told your production of iHeartRadio. So it Samantha.

3
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,079
Speaker 1: The other day, I was talking about this old game

4
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 1: I used to play, um that I'll get into you

5
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: more in a second, but it was a predictive game

6
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,800
Speaker 1: of learning who your husband are, getting a clue who

7
00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 1: your future husband would be. And you had no idea

8
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,440
Speaker 1: what I was talking about. Still don't have you. I mean,

9
00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,839
Speaker 1: did you do anything like that, like where you were

10
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: trying to figure out any cruise about who your future

11
00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,440
Speaker 1: partner would be. I mean we played the match game

12
00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,640
Speaker 1: and then the little uh fortune teller game, the Fortune Teller,

13
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 1: those games. But I've never had a real tradition. I

14
00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: know that there is one for Marty Gras. Is it

15
00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,679
Speaker 1: a Marty Grot cake where they have a baby, a

16
00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,200
Speaker 1: ring and something else in a cake? And if you

17
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,640
Speaker 1: find that then those are supposed to be significant of swords.

18
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 1: Those are the only things that I know, and I

19
00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,199
Speaker 1: don't know if that's Marty Gras. Is it Marty Gros

20
00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,400
Speaker 1: Marty Gras has the baby cake. I believe there is

21
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,039
Speaker 1: a version that has like a ring or something that

22
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 1: I know we did it at a wet like a shower,

23
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 1: and I thought it was really weird because I've never

24
00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,319
Speaker 1: seen that. And that was a college friend who they

25
00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 1: did this for at a bridal shower bridle lunch and

26
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,199
Speaker 1: looking around like what. So I'm still confused. So obviously

27
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,960
Speaker 1: I don't know these traditions very well. Well you are

28
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 1: in four age three Halloween. Oh yeah, it is interesting.

29
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 1: I believe I've heard of that cake thing you're talking

30
00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 1: about two, and I believe it's supposed to predict who's

31
00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: getting married next. Okay, yes, similar to catching the bouquet

32
00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,560
Speaker 1: at a wedding, which is hilarious for because I'm very

33
00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: competitive and I've always caught it and I have no

34
00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,840
Speaker 1: interest in getting married. Oh I'm so competitive. I'm like

35
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 1: the person that's like bending now here we go, and

36
00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,360
Speaker 1: then all these dudes will come up to you afterwards

37
00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,320
Speaker 1: and they're like congratulations, and you're like, yeah, I caught it,

38
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,200
Speaker 1: clearly not what they've been talking about. Oh that's kincakes,

39
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 1: kincakes kinka. Yeah, I mean normally, in my experience kincake

40
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,560
Speaker 1: doesn't have it is already gorod cake, but it doesn't

41
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,919
Speaker 1: have the ring. But yes, I think it's right, it's

42
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 1: a baby. Yeah, okay, but yes, since Halloween is right

43
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: around the corner. As we were recording this and as

44
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 1: you listen to it, if you listen to it right

45
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,040
Speaker 1: when it comes out, we wanted to dig into some

46
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,840
Speaker 1: Halloween traditions that involve women, uh, and some more modern

47
00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 1: takes on these traditions or some more modern things that

48
00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 1: are going on, including games and costumes. And one of

49
00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 1: them is this sort of food tradition of like a

50
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: food predicting who you're going to marry. And it is

51
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 1: one thing that I've been really curious about this idea,

52
00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,720
Speaker 1: and especially around Halloween, of these traditions around women eating

53
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,760
Speaker 1: or using certain foods so that they can figure out

54
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 1: something about their future spouse, and it's usually a husband.

55
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,320
Speaker 1: It's very headro normative. Um. And this is something that

56
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 1: I come across surprisingly regularly over the other podcast I

57
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 1: do Savor, which is all about food and drink. We

58
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: just an episode on Rosemary and there's a highly specific

59
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,799
Speaker 1: game girls used to play, and there's even a more

60
00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:36,440
Speaker 1: modern version where you put like your phone and it

61
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,680
Speaker 1: has to have a picture of Rosemary on the screen

62
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: under your bed. If you do, you'll dream about your

63
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,160
Speaker 1: future husband, but before phones, or you could get a

64
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: printed picture, because that also works. People would put spriggs

65
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 1: of rosemary under their pillow. Girls specifically will put sprigs

66
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,640
Speaker 1: of rosemary under their pillows. And if you dreamt and

67
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: you saw the blurry face of a man, that was

68
00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 1: your future husb been, but if it was a clear face,

69
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 1: that's not him, you stay away from that guy, which

70
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 1: I love because it's so vague. Okay, Yes, Another tradition

71
00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 1: involves a ring hidden in a potato indicating who will

72
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: get married next, or yes, the one I did that

73
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: I mentioned at the top, and I think I've mentioned

74
00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 1: a few times on this show. I used to peel

75
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,560
Speaker 1: an apple and you toss the peel for some reason.

76
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,720
Speaker 1: I remember it specifically being over your left shoulder. But

77
00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,040
Speaker 1: I don't think it matters. Um well, I guess it

78
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 1: really doesn't matter in a lot of ways. But it

79
00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,320
Speaker 1: was supposed to form the initial of the first name

80
00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,240
Speaker 1: of your future husband if you left it outside for

81
00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 1: a couple of hours and I got a D or

82
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,880
Speaker 1: perhaps to see, which I do think are like the

83
00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,400
Speaker 1: easiest letters it was gonna for right, Oh yeah, I

84
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: to someone got a hy. I know someone got a cue.

85
00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,320
Speaker 1: I need to know if someone got like any of

86
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 1: the did you get any of those letters, because that

87
00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,680
Speaker 1: would be more shocking yes for me? Yes? Or how

88
00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 1: many of those people who actually did marry a d

89
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,880
Speaker 1: C R O, which I imagine is z or l

90
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 1: or I like, those are the people we'll see. I mean,

91
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,160
Speaker 1: I got my whole future out of me. Of course,

92
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 1: these are their games, They're just games. It makes sense

93
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 1: to me that girls who we've long taught that getting

94
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,919
Speaker 1: married is the end all be all um and for

95
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: a good portion of history, something their future and security

96
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,359
Speaker 1: and happiness depended on. I would have these rituals around

97
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,200
Speaker 1: predicting who it was they were going to get married to.

98
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,280
Speaker 1: I believe we've talked before about mash like that was

99
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,800
Speaker 1: a really popular thing that right, I played match. Apparently

100
00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,200
Speaker 1: I call it a different thing because I didn't want

101
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 1: to stand for it. And then you want to shack.

102
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,120
Speaker 1: So I got a cabin, So you changed this apartment

103
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,320
Speaker 1: in our house. I love you made the rules fit you.

104
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: I almost love it a check. That's fantastic. I really

105
00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,599
Speaker 1: appreciate it. I mean, my own future, damn it, that's

106
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:17,279
Speaker 1: I love it. Anyway, so many of these games were

107
00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:23,440
Speaker 1: ideally performed on celebratory days when seasons were changing, like Halloween.

108
00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,440
Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of autumn festivals and the

109
00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: maple thing. It's very seasonal as well, like spring, right spring,

110
00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,719
Speaker 1: the summer. Yeah, so when people believe that the veil

111
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,599
Speaker 1: between the living and the dead was thinner, potentially allowing

112
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,040
Speaker 1: them to see into the future to get some sense

113
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,640
Speaker 1: of what was coming Dune Dundune um So Halloween and

114
00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 1: its predecessor festivals in Europe also marked at the end

115
00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:54,120
Speaker 1: of the harvest, beginning of winter less sunlight hours periods

116
00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 1: some worried may one day never end. I feel like

117
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,160
Speaker 1: that's a plot to a show which shows that, Uh.

118
00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,560
Speaker 1: To that end, people would celebrate and make offerings to

119
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 1: gods and spirits, and food was often a part of

120
00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 1: all of this, including something called the dumb cake, though

121
00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,320
Speaker 1: it came around a bit later. Yes, and shout out

122
00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,720
Speaker 1: to Jan who's been listening to all the backlog and

123
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,080
Speaker 1: it's been wonderful to hear here from Jan as they

124
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 1: work through um for bringing this one to our attention

125
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 1: and pointing us out to this very helpful and fun

126
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 1: article over at Atlas Obscura. Written by Anne you Bank

127
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,400
Speaker 1: about this whole thing. Also shout out to listen to

128
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,280
Speaker 1: Renee for calling in about using the word dumb and

129
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: how hurtful it can be in the deaf community. Um,

130
00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 1: and we're gonna do try to do better in the future.

131
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 1: This is the name of this cake, but we're going

132
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: to try to use it as little as possible. But

133
00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,559
Speaker 1: I always appreciate these notes so we can do better.

134
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,119
Speaker 1: Oh bt dubs, because it's just reminded me of the fact.

135
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,240
Speaker 1: So I just rewatched American Horror Story some of the

136
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:00,400
Speaker 1: old seasons and they do talk about Halloween and the

137
00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,800
Speaker 1: fact that during the season of the Witch season, rather

138
00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,200
Speaker 1: where Madame Laurie coming back, and she was like, Oh,

139
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,560
Speaker 1: it's Halloween already, Do I need to say that out

140
00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 1: the lanterns and get ready for the bonfires and the

141
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,040
Speaker 1: festival essentially she talked about. I was like, Oh, yeah,

142
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 1: that used to be the whole Jaqueliner thing. But then

143
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,960
Speaker 1: a listener also pointed out the fact that we forgot

144
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:26,240
Speaker 1: to mention Sarah Paulson being a screen queen. I was like,

145
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,679
Speaker 1: oh yeah, because she has that trend going on TikTok

146
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,920
Speaker 1: saying help me the killer is escaping anyway, This just

147
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,800
Speaker 1: reminded me of all of those things, so I feel

148
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,800
Speaker 1: like I needed to say that, and thank you to

149
00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,520
Speaker 1: our listener for reminding me of that. Keep going. Yes, yes,

150
00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 1: she did appear on on some list Yes, um okay.

151
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,560
Speaker 1: So from the seventeen hundreds to nineteen hundreds, unmarried women

152
00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 1: in the UK and North America would take part in

153
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 1: this baking ritual to divine their future husbands. As far

154
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 1: as games go, it was more of a spook sleepover game,

155
00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: kind of like Blooding Mary, with the goal of seeing

156
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: your future husband in your dreams. That's a recurring scene

157
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:09,840
Speaker 1: is It's like in your dreams you're going to see

158
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,000
Speaker 1: this person. The origins of it are hard to pin down,

159
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,319
Speaker 1: but it was probably first played in or around Scotland,

160
00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: perhaps a riff on eating bread on Shrove Tuesday to

161
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 1: see your future spouse. Though again, different versions of this

162
00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 1: game have existed around the world for pretty much forever,

163
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 1: and listeners we would love to hear if you have

164
00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 1: any experience with any of these, or if you have

165
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: any history in your country with any of these, please

166
00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 1: please let us know. The first known written description of

167
00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,000
Speaker 1: this cake appeared in a book on witchcraft by George

168
00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:49,960
Speaker 1: Sinclair called Satan's Invisible World discovered. Sinclair, a demonologist and mathematician,

169
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,720
Speaker 1: likened it to a very silly and potentially dangerous superstition.

170
00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 1: The world discovered that the whole thing all right. So

171
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,160
Speaker 1: in the early days, they were certainly viewed by Christians

172
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:09,280
Speaker 1: as an unsavory remnants of pagan religions that would bring

173
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,199
Speaker 1: evil down upon any fool to partake in them. You're

174
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:22,239
Speaker 1: full any you're one of those now sorry. For instance,

175
00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,119
Speaker 1: take this quote from the seventeen fifties book God's Revenge

176
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: against the Breakers of the Ten Commandments, that execrable way

177
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: of making what is termed a dumb cake with a

178
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 1: thousand other tricks in order to see or dream of

179
00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,560
Speaker 1: their sweethearts, which are still too much in use among

180
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,840
Speaker 1: young maidens, in orderfy in order to satisfy their insatiable

181
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 1: curiosity and inexcusable impatience. Inexcusable in patience, how dare the

182
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:58,880
Speaker 1: take on some switchcraft? I don't I'm really bad at this. Yeah,

183
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: I thought it is great. I thought it was great.

184
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we should put a note in here,

185
00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,040
Speaker 1: like again, it's really easy to make fun of things

186
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 1: like this because it sounds silly, But I did the

187
00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,840
Speaker 1: same thing, and especially at this time, your whole future

188
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,920
Speaker 1: was really as a young girl writing on this future

189
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,400
Speaker 1: sweetheart or spouse. So it just really really makes sense

190
00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 1: to me. And I know we've talked about witches and witchcraft,

191
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 1: especially women around that, and you know it, violence, It

192
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 1: led to violence, and all the suspicion of of what

193
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,320
Speaker 1: usually just young girls or maybe beliefs that we didn't

194
00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,080
Speaker 1: fit into this very strict idea of Christianity. So it's yeah,

195
00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,079
Speaker 1: just a note, right, this guy, I'm sure it was terrible.

196
00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:50,640
Speaker 1: It sounds like a real piece of work, a real

197
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,600
Speaker 1: piece of work he does. No one's too sure where

198
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 1: the name came from. Either. Some suspect it comes from

199
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 1: an older definition for dumb, meaning silent. Others think it

200
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 1: might be derived from the Middle English definition for doom,

201
00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:11,640
Speaker 1: meaning fate or destiny. But wherever it came from, it

202
00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 1: was incredibly popular for a couple of centuries in the

203
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 1: UK and North America, to the point accounts of it

204
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,640
Speaker 1: appeared in news stories, folklor anthologies, and even research papers.

205
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,120
Speaker 1: These accounts paint a general picture of how it went

206
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 1: late in the night, maybe around midnight, two or three

207
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,600
Speaker 1: girls gathered together to bake a cake in complete silence.

208
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,959
Speaker 1: And side note, I love how many of these games

209
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 1: involved complete silence, almost as if the parents created them

210
00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:48,160
Speaker 1: or something. The ingredients were simple, typically including flour, salt,

211
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,920
Speaker 1: and water. Each girl then wrote their initials into the cake,

212
00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 1: and then it was placed into the oven to bake

213
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,199
Speaker 1: again total silence. Once done, the girls pulled the cake

214
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,520
Speaker 1: out of the oven and broke it, perhaps each taking

215
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 1: a bite. Then they walked backwards to their beds, placing

216
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: their piece of cake under their pillows and going to

217
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,400
Speaker 1: sleep so that they could dream of their future husband.

218
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,800
Speaker 1: So they didn't eat it. They spit it out and

219
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 1: put it under their bed. Sometimes I think they took

220
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 1: a bite, but there was still a piece left to

221
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 1: put under the pillow. Sounds messy. It was a harder

222
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 1: cake than what we're used to. It was kind of

223
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 1: a tough yeah, all right, just just checking. Yeah, And

224
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,480
Speaker 1: as you're talking about, yeah, I can't imagine what these

225
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,240
Speaker 1: processes were like, because if you didn't dream of someone,

226
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:42,160
Speaker 1: that means you're doomed. Right, I'm sure that it wasn't

227
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,640
Speaker 1: a It sounds like, because we're going to get into

228
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,439
Speaker 1: it in a second. It was kind of scary no

229
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: matter what. If you saw someone, it was kind of scary.

230
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,200
Speaker 1: If you didn't see one someone, it was kind of scary.

231
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,480
Speaker 1: There's a lot of fear around it, which again also

232
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,119
Speaker 1: makes sense to me if this was something you truly believed.

233
00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 1: But all so, the Atlas Obscura article I mentioned earlier,

234
00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 1: the author and a friend attempted this and it was

235
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,280
Speaker 1: funny because she was like, I dreamed of nothing, not

236
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 1: a thing. Well, yeah, so that would be the less

237
00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,720
Speaker 1: frightening outcome, right. So in some versions, the husband was

238
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,200
Speaker 1: supposed to show up, and here's a quote from an

239
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,520
Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen description. Man, we have good records on this quote.

240
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,480
Speaker 1: A few minutes after midnight, the husband of her, who

241
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,960
Speaker 1: was to be first married, will appear to lay his

242
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: hand on the part of the cake marked with her name.

243
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 1: That does sound a little why are you in my bedroom?

244
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,640
Speaker 1: Come on? Um? Oh, it's speaking of Sometimes the boyfriends

245
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 1: were pretty annoyed at being summoned in some versions of these,

246
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 1: as in this article about folklore out of England by

247
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,760
Speaker 1: Angelina Parker. Quote, an old lady once told me that

248
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: a girl in this way brought her future husband, who

249
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,320
Speaker 1: was a soldier, into the room, and in passing through

250
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 1: the doorway, he broke his sword in two. The girl

251
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 1: picked up the broken piece and kept it after she

252
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 1: had been married to him some years. In turning out

253
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 1: her trunk, she came across it and showed it to

254
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,920
Speaker 1: her husband, and he was so angry he could hardly

255
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 1: forgive her. He told her he suffered dreadful agonies during

256
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 1: the time she forced him to appear, although he did

257
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:27,680
Speaker 1: not then know the reason. Mmmmm, Now, way to blame

258
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:33,520
Speaker 1: a woman true, true to true these mysterious agonies. It

259
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 1: must have been you. That's the only way. M hmmm.

260
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 1: That could have been a whole plot point. I'm not

261
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,040
Speaker 1: sure I've ever seen, like a horror version story of

262
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,960
Speaker 1: what we think is a romance and then it turns

263
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 1: out to be it was very painful for the other

264
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 1: person involved or something. I think I've seen some fairy

265
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,880
Speaker 1: tale versions that are similar, but not quite mm hmmm.

266
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: In another version of this game, a dark shadow would

267
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 1: appear upon the breaking of the bread, chasing the girls,

268
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 1: and the only salvation from a mysterious but surely terrifying

269
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:25,160
Speaker 1: fate was to dump straight into bed. Again. I love

270
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 1: how many of these. I don't know if I'm right,

271
00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 1: but it just feels like parents trying to get their

272
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 1: kids to go to sleep and be quiet. Get into

273
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,320
Speaker 1: that bed, to straight to bed. Your future husband's gonna

274
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 1: come and chase you, terrify you, and um. At least once,

275
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: making and one of these cakes did lead to disastrous

276
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: real world consequences. Three girls working at an English estate

277
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 1: accidentally made their cake using a poisonous ingredient. That night,

278
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 1: they woke members of the estate with their agonized screaming.

279
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 1: One actually died um the other two survived, only to

280
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 1: be derided in the news as quote too deluded females.

281
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,119
Speaker 1: But again, as one writer put it in eighty nine,

282
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 1: a young maiden will go through a great deal in

283
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 1: order to get some kind of answer to a question

284
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,639
Speaker 1: that so deeply involves her happiness. Here's a description of

285
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:23,240
Speaker 1: the whole thing by Charles Dick from nineteen eleven. Quote.

286
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: The two must go to the larder and jointly get

287
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,920
Speaker 1: the various ingredients. First they get a bowl, each holding it,

288
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: and wash and dry it together. Then each gets a

289
00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,040
Speaker 1: spoonful of flour, a spoonful of water and a little salt.

290
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,920
Speaker 1: When making the cake, they must stin on something they've

291
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,720
Speaker 1: never stood on before. They must mix it together and

292
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 1: roll it. Then they draw a line across the middle

293
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,360
Speaker 1: of the cake and each girl cuts her initials, each

294
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 1: on opposite sides of the line. Then both put it

295
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,919
Speaker 1: in the oven and bake it. It seems like a

296
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 1: really big bonding time. Annie, Should we try this? I

297
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,320
Speaker 1: think we should. I think we should. The silence will

298
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,320
Speaker 1: be hard, and if we have to walk backwards anywhere,

299
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 1: that I'm done for. Yeah, because if I have to

300
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: go down some stairs, so no, no, So this is

301
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: actually the one I believe that the Atlas Obscura article

302
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,640
Speaker 1: that they used, and my favorite part was them trying

303
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 1: to find something to stand on that they've never stood before.

304
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 1: Can we get a piece of carpet that we just buy?

305
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure? Okay, I think I could find things in

306
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: your partment. Yeah. Do I have to go to someone's

307
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 1: house I've never been before and never stand in front

308
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 1: of that place? I think the friend had an easier

309
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,760
Speaker 1: time finding something. Oh no, okay, No, that's too much

310
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,160
Speaker 1: that I gotta put the foot down. Well, if we revisited.

311
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,400
Speaker 1: I think that could be fun. We'll let you listeners

312
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 1: know how it goes if we find out. Yes, yes,

313
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 1: But for now, let's talk about bobbing for apples and

314
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,480
Speaker 1: the related game Snap Apple, which sounds slightly terrifying. I

315
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 1: can't wait to talk about it as a summer slash

316
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,080
Speaker 1: fall fruit especially and here we're talking, we're still talking

317
00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,520
Speaker 1: about mostly European North American traditions. Apples were often involved

318
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 1: in early Halloween celebrations and used ensue saying rituals. On

319
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 1: top of that, they have a long history of being

320
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 1: seen as somewhat magical. I'm sure, like off the top

321
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 1: of my head and already think it's so white. There's

322
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 1: just a bunch of like eve. There's a lot of

323
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 1: imagery around apples. You can go see that as that

324
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,439
Speaker 1: savor did on apples. We go into that um and

325
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: why that is a little bit so if you want

326
00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 1: to learn more. As mentioned earlier, there's the using of

327
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,320
Speaker 1: the apple peel to ascertain the initial of your future spouse.

328
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,119
Speaker 1: Another though um was bobbing for apples, a tradition that

329
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: most likely originated in Europe and perhaps specifically Britain. It

330
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 1: started off a bit differently than what we do. Now.

331
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: Have you ever bought for apples, Samantha, No, Nope. It

332
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 1: just didn't seem sanitary. I think i've I mean especially now,

333
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,480
Speaker 1: I'm like, what were we thinking? Uh? I think I've

334
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 1: only done it once and I was so bad. I

335
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,680
Speaker 1: never got an apple and I hated it. It was

336
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 1: pretty miserable to be honest, have a giant well and

337
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,119
Speaker 1: then also really good teeth, and I do not have

338
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: either one of them. Well, I do have a big mouth,

339
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean now

340
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: now I have with my front seake juice. I would

341
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 1: never ever tip something like this sensitive. I couldn't do it. Yeah,

342
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean it's hard, it like bounces, it bobs away.

343
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 1: But there was never any uh who's your future spouse

344
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: going to be? Element? When I've thought of it, or

345
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: that one time that I played it was just can

346
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: you get the apple? Um? But there did used to be.

347
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: In one version of this tradition, as it used to

348
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 1: go um, girls and women would secretly mark the apples

349
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 1: and put them in a barrel of water. Then potential

350
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 1: matches would dunk their heads into the water and bite

351
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 1: into an apple as a way to look into romantic

352
00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 1: futures or bring people together. However, in some parts of Scotland,

353
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 1: bobbing for apples once and still does listeners please right

354
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 1: in if you know share the same name as the

355
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: practice of dunking women in water to test if they

356
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 1: were witches. Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it's also

357
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: interesting to me. Again, this all makes sense in terms

358
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: of a game people would play, but it's also kind

359
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 1: of like teenagers being shy about asking out somebody. Um,

360
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 1: so there's that element as well. On the other hand,

361
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: there's snap apple. This one is a Halloween tradition also

362
00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: from the British Isles that has roots and paganism. Here's

363
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: how it went. The goal was to snag an apple

364
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: in your teeth without using your hands, instead of dunking

365
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: your head into water. The apple was attached to one

366
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 1: end of a stick, while a burning candle was attached

367
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: to the other end. The stick itself was dangled from

368
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: a string and then the whole thing was spun around.

369
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: The player and then tried to get the apple. But

370
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:08,440
Speaker 1: failure might mean a candle in your face. Oh, getting

371
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: the apple first could either mean you're going to be

372
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 1: happy in love or that you'd be the first to

373
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 1: be married. A similar, related version of this game called

374
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 1: for suspending a hoop from the ceiling. The hoop was

375
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 1: adorned with various candies, peppers, breads, cakes, and apples. Depending

376
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,680
Speaker 1: on what food the player got, it foretold the nature

377
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 1: of their marriage, like spicy or sweet. I don't like

378
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: any of those games. There's some risk involved, for sure.

379
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 1: I guess I would rather have the ladder than but

380
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 1: still yeah yeah um. Well as our friend and co

381
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,400
Speaker 1: worker Laura and likes to say, they didn't have Netflix

382
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: back then, So find your own entertainment, I suppose so.

383
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 1: One tradition claimed that you would take an apple to

384
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,959
Speaker 1: the mirror, shine a candle in it, and eat the apple,

385
00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 1: which would cause your future husband your shoulder to appear.

386
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 1: That sounds like a bloody marry game? Are there? In another,

387
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: you'd cut an apple into nine pieces, and after you've

388
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 1: eaten the eight, your lover would appear to ask for

389
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,959
Speaker 1: the ninth. All of these things are how the hell

390
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: did you get to my house? Bro? They do sound

391
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: I mean for someone who watches a lot of horror movies,

392
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: this doesn't sound romantic. Um. However, like I said, some

393
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: of them were viewed as something like bloody Mary. It

394
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: was kind of freaky. But okay, enough about apples, let's

395
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: talk about nuts. Nuts are also used for seeing into

396
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: the future to figure out who you were going to marry.

397
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: In some places, Halloween may have been called nutcrack Night

398
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: or the Sacrifice of the nuts, because they were used

399
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: so much in these sort of future attempts at seeing

400
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: into the future. Women would name the nuts and put

401
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: them in the fire. If the nuts cooked together and smoothly,

402
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: that was good for your chances with that person the

403
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: nut was named after. If the nuts jumped in cracked,

404
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: not so good, not looking good. Another belief held at

405
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: this time was that if a man brought a woman

406
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: walnuts it was true love, which again it feels like

407
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: if the man knew that, then yeah, it's just like

408
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: paming you, right right, I did. I mean, with all

409
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 1: of these there's a lot of historical distortion of trying

410
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 1: to understand what people believed back at this time, and

411
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: a lot of different accounts. And I did read one

412
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: where it was actually the opposite, and if the nuts

413
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 1: cooked slowly and together, it meant boring times I had

414
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 1: for you with that person. But if they jumped and cracked.

415
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: It's gonna be really exciting and fun. So the bit

416
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: about like him bringing you nuts, it's kind of a

417
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: little more of what I had thought of as a kid,

418
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,239
Speaker 1: like I had two to three spe specific things that

419
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: my future husband would do for me for me to

420
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: know that he was the one. And I did have that,

421
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: and it was very specific. It has not happened. It

422
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,199
Speaker 1: feels like practical territor. You're right, You're right to think

423
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 1: about that. But yeah, as a kid like, these are

424
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: the things that I know that I love. And if

425
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 1: he does these two things, because I had two specific,

426
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: very specific things, then I know he's the one. Which

427
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: makes me kind of gagg a little bit, but hey,

428
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: you whatever, a little bit nauseous on that one. But anyway,

429
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: so let's talk about a cabbage types of cabbage or

430
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: once I feel like this is very Korean for some reason,

431
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: I don't know why. I feel like a lot of

432
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: Asian food just and it just has all the cabbage.

433
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: So I'm like, okay, since this feels right. So it

434
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 1: ties with cabbage were once believed to have Halloween love

435
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: predicting properties to what a delight I love cabbage, So

436
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure about these things. But here's a fun

437
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: vague one. Great women would go into fields pulling up

438
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: stocks of kill, examining them for things like length, girth, taste,

439
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 1: weight to kind of get an idea of what their

440
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: relationship with their future spouse would be like. So, is

441
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: it kind of phallic in my victory this right? Am

442
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: I wrong? Or is it just about the entire relationship?

443
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: But I just have a dirty mind. It could be

444
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: either or the It was a lot of like a

445
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: lot of its word play, right, like if it's long,

446
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: then the relationship will last long. I say that was

447
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: completely dirty. So lots of earth clinging to the roots

448
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: were often interpreted as a substantial dowry. Didn't dowry come

449
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: from the woman? Yeah, I think, yeah, I think so

450
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be the woman's family. Okay, so this

451
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 1: is for guys too, then now I think it was

452
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: like I would assume that would I would at the time,

453
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 1: you would, but that as getting married to somebody higher up. Okay,

454
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: I could ask for a bigger downry. Okay. So if

455
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: a woman was looking to live a bit more on

456
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: the wild side, she could steal a cabbage and see

457
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: who she met on the way home and over in

458
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: Ireland and Newfoundland, the dish colcannon made of cabbage and potatoes,

459
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: people would hide a ring and button underneath it, and

460
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: whoever found the ring was going to get married soon,

461
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: and the button portended you would never marry. That's so

462
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: sad can be. Yeah, I guess so, yes, I don't

463
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: want to be married. That is a really interesting reaction

464
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: from me because it's supposed to be how it's supposed

465
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: to be seen. But yes, I'm absolutely personal, like I

466
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: don't want to be married. That sounds awful. Yeah, well,

467
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean not to harp on this point too much,

468
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: but it was. It's still a big deal now, don't

469
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: get me wrong, but back then it was a much

470
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: bigger The woman's value wasn't marriage? Absolutely yes, and also

471
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: as a game, you know, sort of similar to old Maid.

472
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: And this is still something we have to shape today culturally.

473
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: But like, there's nothing worse or scarier than being old,

474
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: unmarried woman. So I can imagine at a party you're

475
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: on social media being like this is why you're gonna

476
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 1: be alone, Like it's the worst thing to put on someone.

477
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: They're like, okay, cool, it's fine. I'm good. Yeah, I'm

478
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: gonna thanks. Yeah. Um, And that's just a sampling. There

479
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 1: are so many of these and these were Halloween focus.

480
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: But again, listeners, if you've if you've got some, or

481
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: if you played some, let us know. We did want

482
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: to talk briefly about costumes. And we've done several episodes

483
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: in the past around women's costumes and even the history

484
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: of Halloween and especially here in America and the commercialization

485
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: of it and how women were heavily involved in the

486
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: early days. Um, So this is going to be a

487
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: much more modern look. Also, thanks again to Jessica who

488
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: suggested we look into this. So there has been some

489
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: recent research around gender differences in costumes and why these

490
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: differences matter. The researchers deck through costumes and this recent

491
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: research on two online costumes superstore websites, UM sites that

492
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: have a fairly strict line between men's costumes and women's costumes,

493
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: saying with boys and girls, some of the findings of

494
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: this research weren't surprising. Women's costumes are tighter, sexier, and

495
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: if that wasn't what a woman wanted, there weren't many

496
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: options outside of that. We've all heard the arguments. I'm

497
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: sure around, why do women always have to wear sexy costumes?

498
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: It's slut a weird? Oh no. But if the only

499
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: options for women are sexy, which shouldn't really be an issue,

500
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: if that's something the person in question wants to wear,

501
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: then we're limiting what women can dress as and then

502
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: judging them for it. In the words of one of

503
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: the researchers, Aaron Hippel, the issue isn't really that adult

504
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: women are wearing sexy costumes. Women should be allowed to

505
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: choose what we wear all year round. The issues that

506
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: there are limited choices. If one shops on the women's

507
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: side of the Halloween sales floor, divide, the choices are

508
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: very limited. Uh yeah, So it sends this message that

509
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: women and girls should be sexy, that their looks are

510
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: front and center and should be front and center, and

511
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: that their bodies are for consumption for the male gaze. Again,

512
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: if you want to dress sexily, totally should a big

513
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: believer in that. But it's the issue of options, right um,

514
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: And and they've got numbers to back this up to.

515
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: So they found eighty eight percent of women's costumes showed

516
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: skin compared to sixteen percent of men's. Uh. The number

517
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: is sixty eight percent for girls compared to one percent

518
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: of boys. So since for a good chunk of the

519
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: people who are celebrating Halloween are celebrating it in public,

520
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: Halloween falls in cooler months. That means options for comfort

521
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 1: and warmth are limited unless you're like me and you

522
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: get a onesie and you're like, nah, I'm good row

523
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: in my Panda onesie. I have had so many cold Halloween's.

524
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: I remember there was a cold snap in Atlanta when

525
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: I was in college, so, you know, many years ago,

526
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: and just being so cold and uncomfortable and going home

527
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: because my costume was very skimpy. Right, And on top

528
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: of that, of women's costumes were tight, even uncomfortably so

529
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: compared to the twenty eight percent of men's and that's

530
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: of girls versus five percent four boys. Yes, and I

531
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: had a friend that almost passed out once from her

532
00:31:53,920 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: tight Harley Quinn outfit. So you can get really uncomfortably tight. Yeah,

533
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: for those that are just like pre manufactured obviously very

534
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: cheaply made costumes is typically the worst material size, like

535
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: for young prepubescent girls. And the fact that's thin see

536
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: through not necessarily on purpose, it's just the main of

537
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: the way it is. I was like, this is the

538
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: worst combination of costuming, or they're ridiculously expensive, and I'm like,

539
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: I'm not spending a hundred fifty on that antique, right, well, yeah,

540
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: I mean that's another good point is if comfort isn't

541
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: clearly is in a priority for women's costumes, and it's

542
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: again kind of sending this message that it's not about

543
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: you and it's about how you look and how other

544
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: people see you, right so um and interviews, the researchers

545
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: described how they would have to go through several pages

546
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: of women's costumes before finding one that wasn't sexualized, where

547
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: as for men, their very first option wasn't nice. This

548
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: finding put out numbers that demonstrate just how big this

549
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 1: gender gap is. And I was just thinking about this too,

550
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: like if you think about even historical levels of costumes,

551
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: they're all made sexy, and you're like, that was that's

552
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: not what it was, and you kind of had this

553
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: moment of trying to figure out why something that it's

554
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: already nice as begun even beyond and then we won't

555
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: talk about the cultural appropriation that happens within these costumes,

556
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: but how they're also sexualized I was thinking about there

557
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: was just a recent argument on TikTok because I'm now

558
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 1: officially on TikTok all the time and I need to

559
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: ban myself from it. But whatever, the whole idea of

560
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: why people are arguing with other people about why can't

561
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: I dressed up as Pocahuntas, why can't I dressed up

562
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: as Mulan and being there to be like, it's not

563
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: the point that you may have really liked these what

564
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: you know of as Disney characters, but the appropriation of

565
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: what you're doing and what you're trying to do, especially

566
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 1: when we talk about indigenous community, Hey watch it. And

567
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: then especially the overly sexualized tones of these costumes and

568
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: what you're doing it for. It's not because you're doing

569
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: it because you appreciate these individuals and you see them

570
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: as iconic. You're doing them because you'll be in a

571
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,280
Speaker 1: sexy version of something that is known, and that's disgusting

572
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: mm hmm on so many levels. Yeah. Yeah, And it's

573
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: it's interesting how it's such a big accepted kind of

574
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: thing about like women's costumes won't be sexy that I

575
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: think that Just the other day I heard like three

576
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: or four jokes about it, you know, sexy crayons or

577
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 1: sexy just like random object and it's sexy, right, Yeah,

578
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,439
Speaker 1: And I know I've heard, and I suppose there could

579
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: also be an argument that this is one of the

580
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: only times of year women feel it's acceptable to dress

581
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: as sexy as their heart desires, which is also a problem.

582
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: Most likely all these things are going on at once.

583
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 1: I remember one year I addressed in acute what I

584
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: was like modest outfit and went around telling everyone I

585
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 1: was heard of having sexy costumes, only sexy costume options.

586
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: I just remember being at this party and be like,

587
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: already kind of going off. Um, so I'm a proponent

588
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: of being really silly, and that's kind of one of

589
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 1: the things that I try to do for Halloween. And

590
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: there have been some moments of like me trying to

591
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: be sexy did not pull off really well, and I

592
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: was like, I don't feel comfortable and feeling like something

593
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: that I am not on the constant basis, and that

594
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: again the bigger conversation of being sexualized fetishized, as well

595
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: as just not having confidence. So it's all a kind

596
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: of a layered bunch. Um. But a few times that

597
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: I have I'm like, this is really bad. So one

598
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: of the costumes that I did because as an Asian

599
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: person in a white community, I always felt like I

600
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: couldn't dress as anything and be that, Like I couldn't

601
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: be the Asian version of something like that just felt wrong.

602
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: It felt weird, And I will say that because it

603
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: felt like I was trying to put myself in the

604
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: hierarchy trying to be white. Not because I didn't want

605
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 1: to be one of the white people. It was because

606
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: I was ashamed for not being white, so I couldn't

607
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 1: possibly be accepted as white. So that's again a different conversation.

608
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: So I dressed up as a Geisha as being an

609
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: Asian part of like, oh, this is one thing that

610
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: I can be that can be kind of sexy, and

611
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: then coming back to realize, holy, I'm finning into that

612
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 1: same narrative of sexualizing and fetish sizing women with this

613
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: whole moment of the memoirs of Geisha coming out and

614
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: be like, this was written by a white man. Do

615
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: we really want to go into all of this? You know,

616
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: like this is all of those things. But coming back

617
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: to realizing even though it is kind of more accepted

618
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 1: because I am at least an Asian woman doing it.

619
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 1: I had two white friends do it with me, by

620
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: the way, whole big the conversation, and that that wasn't

621
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 1: their fault. It was my idea, I will say to that,

622
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: but it was problematic then and problematic now me going

623
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: back to looking at it and being like, oh, yeah, okay,

624
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: I did bad and even though I am Asian, this

625
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: was bad on me as well. And that bigger narrative

626
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: of why do I feel like the only things that

627
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: are sexy are fantasization of what men think of Asian women,

628
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: which is what it can be dangerous for Asian women.

629
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: I think there's such a bigger narrative of this conversation

630
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: that's okay to be sexy, be the sexy crayon if

631
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: you want to and you feel a thin about it,

632
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: go ahead, you're sexyself in that, but have an understanding that, yes,

633
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: there is a lot of backlash, and that's the bigger

634
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,160
Speaker 1: conversation of what it is, especially for women once again,

635
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: to sometimes feed into the stereotype that can be really harmful.

636
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: Or if you're a white person, be like, but I

637
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 1: want to be a squid games person, Please don't do

638
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 1: the eyes. Please don't do that. Don't be racist. That

639
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: is racist. That is not good. Yeah, no, no, no,

640
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: no no. Um and we have I mean for something

641
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: that feels on its surface level very frivolous. There are

642
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 1: so many aspects to this. And We've talked about a

643
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: fore you before, and I've talked about how sometimes I

644
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: feel really um self conscious when I do like my

645
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: winners sold you outfit, which I don't think is very sexy,

646
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: but it's slightly sexy, and kids see that and it's like,

647
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: you know, I like it and I feel good in it,

648
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: but I know that kids are observing that nerve, observing

649
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: how men might treat me in that, and then that's

650
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,760
Speaker 1: it makes me feel weird, that strange. But that's again

651
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: the conversation of like, why are we not putting the

652
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 1: responsibility on men? Yes, absolutely, m hmm. Right. It shouldn't. Again,

653
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be like, oh, I'm this object for you

654
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: to just treat however you want to treat. But it

655
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: does turn into that, and I hate when kids see

656
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 1: it because it's just like, I don't want to contribute

657
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: rise and you're right, and it becomes that that's the

658
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: lesson of the story, not the other way. Other problem

659
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 1: of the fact that you have been taught as a

660
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: child and or the parent has been teaching the child.

661
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: I'll see the girl, don't do that because she's the problem.

662
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: And that's not that's not the truth and this at all.

663
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: And of course, and I know I'm preaching to the

664
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: choir when we talk about all of this, but this

665
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 1: against same like stripped down of the fact that if

666
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: done appropriately, everything has to be in that caveat. If

667
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: done appropriately and you feel sexy and you feel good

668
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: about it, been wonderful, let's talk about the fact that

669
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: that is not an open invitation for us to be

670
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: if you want to look from afar and appreciate, because

671
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: sure maybe they put some time in that oftfit and

672
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: do want compliments. Okay, if they don't, if they're uncomfortable

673
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: by you, then don't ye yep, never touch, always ask

674
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: for you take a picture anyway, Yes, yes, And I

675
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: was also thinking, I guess there's an argument that in

676
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: our entertainment a lot of women's costumes are more sexualized

677
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: their costuming in general. And if how oween costumes are

678
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: at least in part based on entertainment, then it filters

679
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: into that too. That doesn't explain things like sex the

680
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: burning costume, but it does explain a lot of that's

681
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: sexy Bernie mean costume I saw the other day. Yeah,

682
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: I just saw a sexy ted lasso costume and I

683
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: didn't know I had. I had a moment of huh see, yeah,

684
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: I guess my thing would be, is there a non

685
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: sexy women's ted lassume? I've seen a few, Yes, because

686
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: playing just straight right? But could you bug the store?

687
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: So the sexy I will say, the sexy ted lasso

688
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 1: she made on her own. Good. I'm awesome. But I

689
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: don't know why that It doesn't enter my head to

690
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: do things. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good. Like

691
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: that's all I could think saw in people's minds, that's

692
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: for sure. Um So, going back to this research, these

693
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: are not the only findings they had. They also discovered

694
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: women and girls costumes rarely come with masks. One and

695
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: four percent of women's and girls, respectively come with masks,

696
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: compared to forty six percent of men's and boys. Why

697
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: I Researcher Laurie Hires speculates, we found that girls and

698
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 1: women's costumes provided less coverage and accentuated the wear's own

699
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: physical attractiveness as the character herself rather than her costume character,

700
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: so that she became the featured subject. It seems that

701
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: girls costumes had to fulfill demands for feminine ornamental display.

702
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: She must not simply be a princess. She must display

703
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: herself as pretty in her princess costume. On the other hand,

704
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: costumes were boys and men put the alternate identity and

705
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: character at the forefront. Hires went on. Costumes marketed to

706
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: girls and women consistently promised that she will look cute, sexy, pretty,

707
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: and all eyes will be on her, whereas costumes marketed

708
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: towards boys typically promised that they will be strong and

709
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: tough or scary and gross. And then yeah, I've I

710
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: read another interesting article about this. I wasn't sure how

711
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 1: much of way to put in it, but they were saying, like,

712
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, the original intense of Halloween, which we are

713
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: way off of what it was originally, was that you

714
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: were supposed to hide your face and hide your identity,

715
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: and that was the costume so that you know, ghost

716
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: or spirits can find you. Um, I do think that's interesting,

717
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: and I mean it's just hard to me to make

718
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: that argument in our modern times when we've just gone

719
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: so far away from that. But that is an interesting

720
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 1: point when it comes to these boys costumes having so

721
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: much more coverage and mask whereas women's and girls generally don't. Right.

722
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: I will say one of my favorite costumes that I

723
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: did was the Grudge Ghost, and I just followed people

724
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: around making the noise freaky, and I stay in character,

725
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: so I'm super annoying. Oh I'm sure you know, like

726
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 1: an hour in that noise is no longer scary. It's

727
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 1: just well, no, I still did enough that is freak

728
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: people out, and I'll be like, I appreciate your dedication

729
00:42:58,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 1: than Another study found that costumes of strong feminist historical

730
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 1: icons are lacking when it comes to costume stores, which

731
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: is why you'll find article after article instructing women and

732
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: young girls how to d I y them. I definitely

733
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: saw plenty of like Rosie the Reveter and of course

734
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: RBG with the necklace and all of that. I've seen

735
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: so many of that, But I have also seen amazing

736
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: d I y like these parents are doing for their

737
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: young kids. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. I

738
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 1: knew that costume. I would say that was probably when

739
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: I was researching this. That was a good chunk of

740
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: the articles on the early Google pages where you know,

741
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 1: like I don't want your young girl to wear a

742
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:47,760
Speaker 1: sexy costume. Here's eight costume ideas of famous historical female

743
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 1: figures and how to make them, which is another argument

744
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: that we could make. It has been made. It's that

745
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: that's better for the environments. Right. So yeah, there's a

746
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 1: lot going on this conversation, a lot more than you

747
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: thought Annie. Um. Well, listeners, we would love to know

748
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: if you've got any cool costumes you would like to share. Please,

749
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: please please let us know, um, whether you're celebrating or not.

750
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: We hope you have a lovely, safe weekend. And yes,

751
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: if you would like to email us that you can,

752
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. Our email is

753
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You

754
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or

755
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 1: on Instagram at stuff I Never Sold You. Thanks. It's

756
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: always to our super producer, Christina Appy Halloween scene, Yes,

757
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff I Ever Told

758
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 1: you his production of I Heart Radio. For more podcast

759
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 1: on I Heart Radio, visit I heardio app Apple podcast

760
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,