1 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Odd Blocks podcast. 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenfal and I'm Tracylliwin Tracy, here's something funny. Um, 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm laughing. Sorry, no, uh, we 4 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: actually we're kind of have a little bit of a 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: theme going here because on today's episode we're going to 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: be talking about the same thing we talked about last week, 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: Bitcoin and making and losing a lot of money off 8 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: of bitcoin. Yeah, pretty much, pretty much exactly that. You 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: know what's funny, Like a like a year and a 10 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: half ago or a couple of years ago, when bitcoin 11 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: and other cryptocurrencies were like surging to the moon all 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: the time. I remember people complaining to us, They're like, oh, 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: you should do more bitcoin episodes, because we actually didn't 14 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: do very many in uh, and now bitcoin and others are, 15 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: you know, in the toilet price wise, the bubbles over 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 1: and now we have two in the rows. So maybe 17 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: we're contrarians, or maybe our sense of timing is just 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: completely off on what the market wants. Maybe having done 19 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: the podcast for two years almost at this point, we 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: are simply running out of ideas. Yeah, that's it's just 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: gonna be bitcoin, Bitcoin, episodes from here on out, But 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 1: this time I think it's gonna be a little different. 23 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: So last time, last week, we talked to a trader 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: who wrote the bubble all the way up and then 25 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: all the way down, And this time we're going to 26 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: be talking to someone who's also still very active in it, 27 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: but more on the development side and some of the 28 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: interesting technological innovations that are happening in the bitcoin world, 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: even amid uh the Bitcoin winter, so to speak, the 30 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: Bitcoin winter. I like that. But the general theme is 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: similar to the last episode in that we are talking 32 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: to someone and who still very much believes in the 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: future of bitcoin and who is in fact actively working 34 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 1: to make bitcoin work. Is that right? Yeah, exactly, So 35 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: another die hard bitcoiner who has been with it a 36 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: long time. And one of the things I want to 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 1: explore on this one is, you know, people, even during 38 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 1: the ups and downs, people are like, when are people 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: actually gonna use bitcoin? When will people use it to spend? 40 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,519 Speaker 1: When will it become a medium of transaction? And that 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: is something that our guests UH this week is working 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: on directly in terms of building out the technologies and 43 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: the layer on top of the sort of core bitcoin 44 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: blockchain to actually make it a useful currency for spending. 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: So it should be an interesting conversation. Great, I'm looking 46 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: forward to it all. Right. On that note, our guest 47 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: this week is Pierre Rochard. He is at Bitcoin Advisory, 48 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: which is a firm he launched to help investors do 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: their due diligence when buying bitcoin, and he is also 50 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: involved in bitcoin development. So, Pierre, thank you very much 51 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 1: for joining us. Thanks for having me on, Joe and Tracy. So, 52 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: before we get started, how long if you you know, 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: I follow you on Twitter. I have for a long time. 54 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: You're one of a hardcore bitcoin maximalist. You don't double 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: another cryptocurrency. You've had a consistent pro bitcoin message for 56 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: a very long time. You weren't just someone who got 57 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: in the party in seventeen. So tell us a little 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: bit about your history and background with bitcoin. Sure, So 59 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: late two thousand twelve, I was wrapping up my master's 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: degree and accounting at the University of Texas at Austin. 61 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: Hook Them, Hook Them, and at that point I was 62 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: I was hanging out with crazy libertarians, as you know, 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: Michael Goldstein and Daniel crewis there on Twitter as well. Uh, 64 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: and we were. We were debating fractional reserve banking as 65 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: libertarians do. Uh, and I at the time, I was 66 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: a gold bug, sound money, a hundred percenters are banking 67 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: type person. Hopefully we won't get into that debate today. 68 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: And to get skip nail fast forward and I as 69 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: part of our debate, bitcoin came up. And I had 70 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 1: heard about bitcoin in the context of the Silk Road, 71 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: but I didn't really think much of it. But in 72 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: this context we started we were talking about bitcoins, you know, 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: twenty one million bitcoins, it's a monetary policy quinquin, and 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 1: that that captivated my imagination and I went down the 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: rabbit hole at that point. So Joe described you as 76 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: a bitcoin maximal list, which means that you sort of 77 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: don't believe in other um cryptocurrencies or coins. What's the 78 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: attraction for bitcoin? Is it a sort of first mover 79 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: adoption advantage or is it something about the underlying technology 80 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: what attracts you to it? Yeah? So, uh, at first, 81 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: it was really that I had in high school. I'd 82 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: been interested in Linux and open source free software, and 83 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 1: when I opened up bitcoin, I realized that this is 84 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: in the same vein as as that, and it really 85 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: spoke to the authenticity of it, essentially, which was that 86 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: the person who created this was a not someone trying 87 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: to get rich quick. They were actually trying to build 88 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: a piece of software that would lead to a money 89 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: in payment system that was decentralized. And that I found 90 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: to be fascinating because that's kind of the only guarantee 91 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: that we have for for for bitcoin maintaining its properties. 92 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: It has to remain decentralized. If it becomes centralized, then 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: all bets are often will either get shut down or 94 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: it'll change its properties in terms of its monetary policy 95 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: or censoring people or whatever it is. And I'm deeply 96 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: skeptical that other cryptocurrencies that are being promoted will be 97 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: able to maintain their their properties and be remained decentralized. 98 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: So let's just let's explore that a little bit further. 99 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: We talked about maintaining their properties. So you mentioned the 100 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: fact that there will only ever be twenty one million bitcoin. Now, 101 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: theoretically that could change, the code could change, but what 102 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: you say is that it's pretty unlikely given the origin 103 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: and the community, but that other coins where there may 104 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: be a specific founder who faces political pressure or ideological pressure, 105 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: those properties could change over time, and so in your view, 106 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: the bitcoin maximalist view is Bitcoin has the best chance 107 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: of essentially staying what it is forever, right, And you 108 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: you hit the nail on the head when you said 109 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: that the code can be changed, because the code can 110 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: be changed, and lots of people have changed the code 111 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: and either released it as their own version of bitcoin, 112 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: you know, giving it a different name, or the an 113 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,359 Speaker 1: all coin, or creating new code from from scratch. But 114 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: ultimately you have to have other people run that code 115 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: and run it on their computer and consider that code 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: to be Bitcoin. And that is the biggest challenge is 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: persuading others to run your code. And the code is UM. 118 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: You know, it's called a node, a Bitcoin node, and 119 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: this node is going to communicate with this peer to 120 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: peer network and essentially the lower the cost of running 121 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: a node, the more likely it is that people will 122 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: run one and thus make it decentralized. So let's talk 123 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: about the current price slump in bitcoin. What actually has 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: accounted for that fall? And you know you're talking about 125 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: this idea of UM replicating the code and the Bitcoin forks, 126 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: do you think that played into it at all? Honestly, 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't. Uh, there's the people have been creating knockoffs 128 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: of bitcoin for years now. Um, I think that what 129 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: accounts for the fall is that the price went up 130 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:46,559 Speaker 1: a lot, and uh, it went from the bull Sorry, 131 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: the previous bear market bottomed out about two dollars and 132 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: from there it rocketed up to twenty dollars in a 133 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: period of eighteen months or a little bit longer than that. 134 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: But um, essentially you can't have a go straight up 135 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: like that and not expect a severe correction. Uh, it 136 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: was not at twenty dollars long enough for me to 137 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: get used to it. So four thousand dollars still feels 138 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: very rich. But there's differing views on that. All right, 139 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: let's talk about one of the biggest criticisms of bitcoin, 140 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: and it's something you're working and others are working on 141 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: to address. As they say, Okay, obviously it's a mode 142 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: of speculation and people like to trade it, but no 143 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: one actually uses it, and if they do want to 144 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: use it for a typical purpose, it's very difficult. It's cumbersome, 145 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: it's slow. It takes a long time to confirm that 146 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: a transaction has even gone forth. If the network is busy, 147 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: then fees can be very high, which places many everyday 148 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: purchases completely out of reach. Um that existing payment systems 149 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: do very well for most of the things we want 150 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: to buy. Um, you so are all the first of all, 151 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 1: are these criticisms in your view? Fair? Absolutely? And Uh. 152 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: In response to those criticisms, Uh, there's they're in a 153 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: kind of a bifurcation. On the one hand, if there's 154 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of bitcoiners who entirely can see those 155 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: criticisms and say, bitcoins a store value. Uh, And so 156 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: it's it's more like holding gold, right was So you're 157 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: not transacting in gold day to day, you know, shaving 158 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: off scraps of gold to pay for your coffee. Um, 159 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: it's a store value. And so I think the and 160 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: that's essentially a narrative because I don't think that it 161 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: matches up to uh, the whole reality. It's certainly a 162 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: part of the reality, which is that there are a 163 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of people who hold bitcoin in the same way 164 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: that they would hold gold, and they're not actually even 165 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: remotely interested in in finding out whether it's easy to 166 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: transact in or not. They just understand that they are 167 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,599 Speaker 1: able to receive bitcoin and send bitcoin. Uh. To an exchange, 168 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: and and then the speculat sation certainly exists and it 169 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: is a big part of the market as well. Um 170 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: of essentially momentum traders seeing it going up or down. UM. 171 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: Now there's a growing sense that there's a group of 172 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: individuals who want to transact with bitcoin and UM part 173 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: of it is people who they see the price go 174 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: up to x and they want to essentially cash out. Uh. 175 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 1: And you can cash out by going to an exchange, 176 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: or it might be more convenient for you to cash 177 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: out when you're, for example, using an e commerce website 178 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: and you're buying something and they have the option to 179 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: pay with bitcoin, so you say, well, I already have 180 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: too many bitcoin, let's lighten up my bags here and 181 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: I'll use that option. So that's kind of on the 182 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: demand side for for making payments. On on the other side, 183 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: you have merchants that maybe they want to be accumulating bitcoin, 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: and accumulating bitcoin by accepting it in the course of 185 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: commerce is has more privacy and possibly a lower cost 186 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: than going out to an exchange and buying it, so 187 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: that that's happening. On top of that, we have this 188 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: phenomenon of existing payment processors censoring individuals based on either 189 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: political reasons or they're they're just de risking, right. Uh. 190 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: And because they're they're complying with k y c mL 191 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: regulations and they don't want to be on the wrong 192 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: side of the regulators, so they're cutting people off even 193 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: though they don't have uh you know, the person has 194 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: not done anything wrong, you know. And it's across the 195 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: ideological spectrum, right, because we have people who are running 196 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: marijuana shops in Colorado and you know that's probably more democrat, 197 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, left leaning, and then on the other side, 198 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: you have people saying politically incorrect things on the Internet 199 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: and getting shut down, and that's sheneringly more on the right. Uh. 200 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: So I think that across the ideological spectrum our our 201 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: politics has gotten so polarized that the corporations get dragged 202 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: into it and they get lobbied to kick people off 203 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: their platforms. Uh. And that opens up an opportunity for 204 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: using bitcoin in in actual transactions. So here's my question, Like, 205 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: if we back up to the moment when bitcoin was 206 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: created and you were talking about the underlying technology, if 207 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't supposed to be a store of value or 208 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: a tool for speculation. Then why didn't we sort of 209 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: have a process embedded into it from the very beginning 210 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 1: to make transactions easier, Because it's not like people didn't 211 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: see this idea of database sprawl or you know, a 212 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: really long ledger sort of hanging back and forth and 213 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: really bulking up transaction time is coming, right, that's correct, 214 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: and Citaian Documento had a he had included a feature 215 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: that wanted to be lightning, but uh, he didn't have 216 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: it fully thought through, and so his his first iteration 217 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: on essentially and well, let's let's get into this right, 218 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: which is that bitcoin is a a global broadcast system 219 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: where you are having all of the nodes agree on 220 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: the ledger and that imposes a huge amount of cost 221 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: on the nodes, where essentially it's a negative externality. Every 222 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: transaction is adding data to the ledger that everyone has 223 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: to verify, so that doesn't scale very well. It's uh, essentially, 224 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: what the result is that fewer and fewer people run 225 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: notes and then it becomes centralized. So we needed a 226 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: system that allowed us to send payments without globally broadcasting 227 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: and that's so so Tocia had had this in mind, 228 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: but uh, the way he clemented, it just didn't work. 229 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: Before we get further, I just want to sort of 230 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: make sure people understand this concept of global broadcasting and 231 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 1: why it's so cumbersome. Because we blockchain technology. You often 232 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: hear people say, oh, it's really efficient and it's gonna, 233 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, reduce all these costs. But it's inherently, at 234 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: least in this version, very inefficient in the sense of 235 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: you imagine I was sending you a text message during email. 236 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: I think people could imagine a system in which the 237 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: only way I could do that is to then send 238 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: a copy of that email to everyone who has ever 239 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: gotten an email ever, so they can all see it. 240 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: We can all see why that's just insanely inefficient. It 241 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: happens to be necessary so that uh, for the decentralization purposes, 242 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: that there's no centralized database. We all have degree on 243 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: the emails we've sent. But as uh, you know, as 244 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: a system that just accumulating data, extraordinary negative externalities exactly, 245 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: and thankfully there there's an opportunity here to solve that problem. 246 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: With a paper that was released back in two thousand 247 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: fourteen describing what's called the Lightning network today and the 248 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: Lightning network essentially says Okay, let's let's use this global 249 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: broadcast system as a a system of last resort, essentially 250 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: as a supreme court. And when when you're doing business, uh, 251 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: you don't take your contract to court every time that 252 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: you are relying on that contract. UH. You only take 253 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: it when there's a dispute uh to the court. Uh. 254 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: And that's otherwise it would be a completely unmanageable uh 255 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: judicial system. So that's the idea behind lightning, is that 256 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: you only go on chain when there's a dispute about 257 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: the state of your what's called a lightning channel. And UH, 258 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: this lightning channel, you you open it up by doing 259 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: an on chain transaction and once it's open, now you 260 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: can send value back and forth and you can be 261 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: routing value around without having to trust your counterparties and 262 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: while maintaining a lot of the same properties of of bitcoin. 263 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: There are trade offs, but we can get into it, well, 264 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: so what are the tradeoffs exactly? And you know, if 265 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: I could be cynical about it, it sounds like you're 266 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 1: sort of creating an additional layer on top of a 267 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: system that has at various times already been criticized for 268 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: being sort of unwieldy in various ways. Yeah. Absolutely. So 269 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: the main trade off today is that you have to 270 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: keep your bitcoins online, and there's been a lot of 271 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: user education about not keeping your bitcoins online and putting 272 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: them into what's called cold storage, right, which is either 273 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: a hardware wallet. Uh. There are a few popular ones, 274 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: including a treasure and ledger, or just printing it down 275 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: on a piece of paper, writing down your mnemonic seed 276 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: and putting it into a bank safe deposit box, which 277 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: is also a little uh iron But so with with Lightning, 278 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: you're you're asking users to keep their funds on their 279 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: computer or on their phone, and really there it's just 280 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 1: about managing ricks. So it's I think of it as 281 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: a checking account. You wouldn't put your entire fortune on it. Uh, 282 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: it's just so a way of being able to have 283 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: some walking around money. Um. Now, in terms of the 284 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: complexity from the user's perspective, that's a fair criticism. And 285 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 1: I think that there's there's a lot of energy within 286 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: the Lightning community into having a very seamless user experience, 287 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: so that you don't even know that you're you're on Lightening. 288 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: It's all abstracted away, so it feels like you're on 289 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: on Venmo or on a square cash app. Does that 290 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: exist currently or is that what you're working on? Essentially, 291 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: Like I know that the Bitcoin core software is probably 292 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: unrealistic for most people to download and run on their computers. 293 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: Is the software to run eatening so that I could 294 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: theoretically one day go into a Starbugs and pull up 295 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: my phone and scan a QR code and make a 296 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: payment for a two dollar coffee and it would instantly 297 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: take it out of some bitcoin wallet that I have. 298 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: Is that going to be easier and less cumbersome? Yes, 299 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: we have a very clear path to that, and it's 300 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: just a matter of executing on it. So at this 301 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: point in time, you do need to be running a 302 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,920 Speaker 1: Bitcoin node that then connects that you're lightning, so you're 303 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: running two notes, a Bitcoin node and a Lightning note. 304 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: And that's the software I've been writing to to help 305 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: with that. And uh, the software I have called the 306 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: node Launcher works on desktop and laptops And essentially the 307 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 1: main drawback there is that you have to download two 308 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: gigabytes of data. You don't necessarily have to store it, 309 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: but you've got to download it. And here in New 310 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: York city. That's fine because we have fiber and everyone 311 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: has a good internet connection, But once you get into 312 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: rural parts, even in America, uh, that that's just not 313 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: even an option. They can't download transer giarbytes. Thankfully, we 314 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: have a an innovation that has been worked on for 315 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: a long time now that's going to be out this year. 316 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: It's called Neutrino, and Neutrino allows you to not have 317 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: to download the entire two untrigearbytes uh. And it will 318 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: make it so that you can use lightning on your 319 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: mobile wallet without using a bitcoin note per se. So 320 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: I have a sort of existential question which is, let's 321 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: assume that you you figure out a way, um, you 322 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: know that this way of transacting and bitcoin is more efficient, 323 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: it is easier for people to use. Does that end 324 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: up solving the speculative problem which we've seen for bitcoin 325 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: um And by that I mean, you know, a reluctance 326 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: of people to use it in day to day transactions 327 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: because they think that the price is going to shoot 328 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: up to the moon at some point. And there's a 329 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: specific example that I have in mind, which is, of course, um, 330 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: the infamous pizza a. You know, like I think it 331 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: was eight or nine years ago or something when we 332 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: had one guy who paid for pizza using a bunch 333 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: of bitcoins that, you know, a year ago would have 334 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: been worth millions of dollars, and it's kind of funny, 335 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: but people also sort of made fun of him about 336 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: it and said, Oh, I can't believe you did that, 337 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: and you wasted so much money. How do you overcome 338 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,479 Speaker 1: that problem? So I think Lightning is going to make 339 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: that problem worse because ultimately people's anticipation or their projection 340 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: of where the bitcoin price is going is based on 341 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: the technology and the fundamentals that are going to be 342 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 1: driving the adoption that would cause the price to go 343 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: to that level. And so if if we with Lightning, 344 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: if we demonstrate that it's going to be a very 345 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: efficient system that's going to attract a lot of adoption, 346 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: then we can expect the price to to go up 347 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: even more than it otherwise would. So I think that 348 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: it makes the problem worse in that regard. And really 349 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: I think that the solution is just going to be time. 350 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: And what I've seen is that people who have owned 351 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: bitcoins for a while, they are essentially overexposed to bitcoin, 352 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: and they're always looking for ways to spend bitcoin. UH. 353 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: So I think that will will see essentially, the people 354 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: who bought it twenty thousand dollars in two thousand seventeen, 355 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: they might be in the hottele mindset for another decade UM. 356 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: But people who who bought it five dollars or a 357 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, uh, they might be thinking about how how 358 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: to uh you know, buy a hard drive on on 359 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: online to um or. And the other aspect of it 360 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: is that, um, you people who even who are buying 361 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: it today, UM, they want to experiment. They are fascinated 362 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: by the technology, uh, and they they're very bullish on 363 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: the price, but they're also interested in educating themselves and 364 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: improving their under standing of bitcoin. And uh, I have 365 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are very new to bitcoin 366 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: who um want to learn more about lightning because they 367 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: just find the idea of a decentralized payment system to 368 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: be fascinating. So I think that you'll have people who 369 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: both are hoddling bitcoin and also transacting in it in 370 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: an experimental way but on some level. And I think 371 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of implicit in what you're saying and when 372 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: you describe the people who use it now using bitcoin 373 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: isn't a way as a means of transacting, even if 374 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: it were really smooth, it's still a sort of um, 375 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: kind of a medium of exchange of last resort. In 376 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: other words, if all you're doing is going to Starbucks 377 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: and buying a coffee, even if it were incredibly simple, Uh, 378 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: you know, just scanning your phone across a thing, and 379 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: it's still like, there's not much reason to do it 380 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: for transaction like that, even in the most simplistic scenario. No, 381 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: there isn't. You could make arguments about privacy. For example, 382 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, do you want visa knowing that you go 383 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: to Starbucks every day? I think that most people don't 384 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: care about that at all. Um, And yeah, that's that's 385 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: exactly right. It is a I think that the most 386 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: underrated aspect of bitcoin is optionality, right, and owning a 387 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: little bit of bitcoin and having a little bit on 388 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: your phone gives you an extra option. Uh. And it's 389 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: it's that it's kind of a form of insurance from 390 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,959 Speaker 1: a payment system perspective. I want to go back to 391 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: something you just said about You say, people are um 392 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: who are getting into bitcoin now it feels like obviously 393 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: interest in bitcoin is significantly less than it was a 394 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: year ago. I think it's safe to say. But in 395 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: your world of people who are super into the technology 396 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: and hacking away at lightning and building this out, do 397 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: you still see growth in that community? Yes, to my surprise, 398 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: I do. I hope stay podcast the noted Bitcoin podcast, 399 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: and uh, I joked that we're not getting any new listeners, 400 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: and then on Twitter the next day I got a 401 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: d M of Hey, I'm a new listener, so keep 402 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,959 Speaker 1: it up. Um, So there's definitely there's new developers and 403 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: new users coming in all the time, and I'm still 404 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: accumulating followers on Twitter to my surprise. But um, I 405 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: think that there's a a sense, you know, we just 406 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: had Bitcoin's tenth birthday, and uh, there's a growing sense 407 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: that like this isn't going away, and this is here 408 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: to stay and it will at least be here for 409 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: another decade. So there's a surprising amount of continued interest 410 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: in it, even at the depths of what people see 411 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: as a bear market, even though I still feel like 412 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: we're in a bull market. So what would it take 413 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: for you, as a bitcoin believer, bitcoin maximalist in fact, 414 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: what would it take for you to sort of lose 415 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: faith in bitcoin and change your mind. Yeah, I think 416 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: the if h if bitcoin became um centralized enough to 417 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: the point where people were making changes to it that 418 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: I thought were unwise, and um that that almost happened 419 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand seventeen. We almost had a hard fork 420 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: that I thought was misguided. Um. And if if that 421 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: hard fork had succeeded, then I I would have likely 422 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: lost faith in in bitcoin. Uh. Thankfully it did. It 423 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: failed miserably, So Uh, that was a moment of victorious joy. Um. 424 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: But that's not a guarantee that it won't happen in 425 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: the future. So there's that aspect of it. Um. And 426 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: then from from the price perspective, I think that I 427 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: would question, uh, my, my understanding of what is driving adoption. 428 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: If the price got down to you know, below a 429 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: thousand dollars for an endless period of time, you know, 430 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: for a couple of years or something, then I would 431 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: I would question if the adoption drivers that I had 432 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: analyzed had disappeared or I was under you know, a 433 00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: euphoric case. Well, uh, we'll come back and have you 434 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: back on the podcast. If bitcoin is stay, does stay 435 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: for under a thousand dollars for a while and uh, 436 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: we'll see if you've reassessed your euphoricques. Pierre Rochard, thank 437 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us, Thanks for having me out. 438 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: Thanks Pierre. That was great, Tracy. I really like that conversation. 439 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: And you know, what I felt was my favorite part 440 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: was actually the analogy between contracts and the court system. 441 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: I've never really thought about that before. That all businesses, 442 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 1: all transactions have some sort of contract, and the there 443 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: is the implicit backing of the court system saying yes, 444 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: this is who's on the right and wrong side of 445 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: the contract. But if we had to actually have the 446 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: courts adjudicate every contract, um, it would never work. And 447 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,239 Speaker 1: I thought that was a really interesting analogy that I 448 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense in this context that 449 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: I just never thought about before. Yeah, I really like 450 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: that one too. But I guess my the one question 451 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: I have having listened to that conversation is there's so 452 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: much effort being put into bitcoin and other crypto related projects, 453 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: either you know, to roll them out in terms of 454 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: adoption or to make transaction easier, And sometimes I just 455 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: wonder why, right, Like, why why put all this time 456 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: and energy and money into a project to create a 457 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: decentralized form of money, and you know, Pierre sort of 458 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: touched on the libertarian arguments there, and then I start wondering, well, 459 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: you know, if bitcoin did actually take off, is there 460 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: not a point at which governments do actually revolt against 461 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 1: it and crack down anyway? Anyway, those are my thoughts, 462 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: shower thoughts on crypto. Yeah, on the flip side, I 463 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: do think it's very interesting that I think when a 464 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: lot of people, and I would say certainly the media 465 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: and speculators and Wall Street in particular, have sort of 466 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: given up on bitcoin or lost interest, and you certainly 467 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 1: don't hear very much about institutions wanting to buy in 468 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: anymore these days, that there is this community that continues 469 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: to grind away at the core project of building out 470 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: the technology and making it more usable and making it 471 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: more decentralized. And I think that it's sort of very 472 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: um and I don't I don't mean, not bullish in 473 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: the price sense, but bullish in the longevity of the project, 474 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: since that regardless of the price swings, they're just the 475 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: people who are still building it out. Yeah. Absolutely, I 476 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: mean that this is basically what we've been talking about 477 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: for two episodes now there are very dedicated crypto believers, 478 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: and there's a very dedicated crypto community. And you and 479 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: I both remember at this point, I think twice now, 480 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven and two house and thirteen, we did 481 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: have a big run up in the bitcoin price on 482 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: a relative scale and a big drop, and each time 483 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: we had a bunch of people saying, Oh, this was 484 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: the end of it, this is the end, It's going 485 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: to die, and yet it continues on and people still 486 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: really really have faith in it. Yeah, And to your 487 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: question about, like, well, one, what happens when there is 488 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: the real government crackdown and they really get aggressive about 489 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: trying to stamp it out. In theory, the technological work 490 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: that's being done now to make it more robust and 491 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: more decentralized and more able for people to run their 492 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: own nodes will make that that eventual crackdown even harder 493 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: to execute. Yeah, Joe, do you have bitcoins that you 494 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: can use to buy me pizza? Uh? Why would you? 495 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: Why would you want to have pizza? But um, there's 496 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: got to be something better to buyan pizza? Right, that's true, 497 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: That's very true. When I'm in New York next Okay, 498 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: all right, well, this has been another episode of the 499 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me 500 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wi isn'hal. 501 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwarts, and 502 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: you should follow our guests on Twitter. Pierre Rochard, He's 503 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: at Pierre Underscore Rochard, and you should follow our producer 504 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: on Twitter tofur Foreheads. He's at foreheads T, as well 505 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: as the Bloomberg head of podcast Francesco lead at Francesco Today. 506 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.