1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. This summer, I was so excited to have 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: Nora McNerney, the host of the wonderful podcast Terrible, thanks 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: for asking join me for a live taping of Family 6 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: Secrets at Rizzoli Bookstore in New York City. This is 7 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 1: part one of our conversation. Well, hey, everybody, very exciting 8 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: for me because you know you you make podcasts kind 9 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: of a loaner with one other person in a tiny, 10 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: little dark space. UM. And this is the first live 11 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: event that I've done for Family Secrets. UM. So that's thrilling. 12 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: And what's particularly thrilling is to have Norah with me, 13 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: because I have to say that when I was starting 14 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: to think about doing a podcast, I knew nothing about 15 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: how to do a podcast. I listened pretty regularly to 16 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: some podcasts that I liked a lot. I live in 17 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: rural Connecticut, I drive a lot, and I would listen 18 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: to podcasts in my car. UM. And I knew what 19 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: I liked and I knew what I didn't like, But 20 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily really think or discern why. UM, when 21 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: I read. I've spent my life as a writer, so 22 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: when I read, I know what I like or what 23 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: I don't like and why, or what's good or what 24 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: I don't think is as good and why. But I 25 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: didn't know with podcasts. And then I was in conversation 26 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: with the podcast producers who I ended up partnering with, 27 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: and someone in one of those phone calls said, have 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: you listened to Terrible? Thanks for asking? Do you know 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: Nora mcinner me? And since I was sort of a 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: podcast virgin um and late to the party, I had 31 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: not yet listened to Terrible Thanks for Asking? And then 32 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: I basically binge listened to Nora for weeks and weeks 33 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: because I thought, Oh, I think I do know how 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: to do this. I think I want to do this 35 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 1: the way that she does this, in the sense of 36 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: holding a story, like holding being someone who has actually 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: is not just a just but you know, is not 38 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: a journalist or am an observer or doesn't have any 39 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: skin in the game, but someone who is actually um, 40 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: like on the path that is the same path that 41 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: um she's asking her guests to walk. And so there's 42 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,679 Speaker 1: something very different about that and very intimate about that, 43 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: and then in addition to that, the artfulness and the 44 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: way that there is the story of the guest, but 45 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: then there is the host and the host holding the story, 46 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: which is the way I always think of it. So Nora, 47 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: thanks for doing this with me. Oh and I should 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: also add that this conversation took place. Oh yeah, also 49 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: thank you for having me. But more importantly, this conversation 50 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: took place with each of us in our cars, and 51 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: within five minutes, I was like, I mean, listen to 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: your voice. You should absolutely have a podcast. Like I 53 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: was like, I feel like I don't even know what 54 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: you said for the past five minutes, but like I'm 55 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I will download that podcast. I would listen 56 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: to you say anything. And um, I stand by that statement. Well, 57 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: thank you and thank you for being my brabbi. I 58 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: uh what what What Nora's leaving out is that when 59 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: I listened to her podcast binge listened to it, I 60 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: was like, I need to talk to her. I need 61 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: I need to find out like what am I in for? 62 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: Like what is this thing? And and and Nora gone 63 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: on the phone with me and us we were in 64 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: our cars, like she has at a car wash and 65 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: at the car dealer. I was sitting outside this UM 66 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: cafe where I go work in the country. UM, just 67 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: like sitting in my car in like you know, dead 68 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: of winter with the engine running, kind of just looking 69 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: out over a waterfall and just having like these a 70 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: couple of long conversations, UM that were these deep dives 71 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: into And I guess this is a lot of what 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: I would love to talk with you about today. UM. 73 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: What it is two experience something you know on a 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: human scale, very very difficult UM. In your case, UM, 75 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: having been widowed at a shockingly young age, the loss 76 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: of your husband Aaron, and a lot of loss compounded 77 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: all at once, and then a moment where or tell 78 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: me if it's a moment but a feeling where in 79 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: which you need to do something with it other than 80 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: sit with it. It was kind of a series of 81 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: moments for me. But for those of you who don't 82 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: know my very um uplifting story, my husband Aaron died 83 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: when he was thirty five. He had brain cancer for 84 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: three years and I was thirty one and we had 85 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: almost two year old child together, and he died right 86 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: after my dad died of cancer. But my dad had 87 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: cancer very briefly, which was like rude, like Aaron already 88 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 1: has cancer, Like you can't also get cancer, you can't 89 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: die first. Um. And then my dad had died right 90 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: after I had miscarried my second child with Darin. So UM, 91 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: just set in the tone for a fun evening out 92 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: for you, for you all welcome. And I I had 93 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: always been a person, even when I was very little, 94 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: and I know you were too, who was always like 95 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,159 Speaker 1: very observant, very attuned to the other the emotions of 96 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: the other people. Um, in my life and in my orbit. 97 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: And I I had never had anything that I thought 98 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: was important to write about, which if if you ever 99 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: feel that way, like literally you can write about anything 100 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: like and truly you don't have to have you don't 101 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: have to have, like a disaster happened to you. Um. 102 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: But I always thought, like, what would I write about? 103 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: You're supposed to write what you know. I don't know anything. 104 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:18,239 Speaker 1: Nothing's ever happened to me. And Aaron had a seizure 105 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: at work a year after we started dating, and I 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: met him at the hospital and we were both like, man, 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: we gotta get you out of here. It's Halloween. We 108 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: gotta hand out candy. It just did not register to 109 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,200 Speaker 1: us that this this was the thing, This was a 110 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: serious thing, both of us. Instagram had just come out. 111 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: This was a simpler time. This was like you know, 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: we were He was like, take a picture, take a 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: picture of me, like laying in the e R. And 114 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, that's that's funny, that's cool. Um, 115 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: He's like take a picture. They have to put me 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: in a wheelchair. It's like that's great, it's great. It's 117 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: got two likes. So it's me and it's you. What 118 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: did you? I liked my own photo just to get 119 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: the get that content rolling. Um. But I always had 120 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: notebook with me. It was always filled with very important 121 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: work things. I worked in advertising, so like truly life 122 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 1: or death kind of stuff happening every day. And I 123 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: remember Aaron being pushed into the mri I room and 124 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: him giving me the thumbs up and the door closing, 125 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: and that hitting me like, oh, this is this is 126 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: a moment. This is an important moment, and there will 127 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: be before this moment and there will be after it, 128 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: whatever happens, Like this is this is a big thing. 129 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: And I sat in that hallway and I wrote everything 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: that had happened, and I didn't think that it was 131 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: for anybody else, but a part of me knew, and 132 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: I wrote this in that same notebook that I had 133 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: to keep my eyes open for this, even though I 134 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: didn't want to. I didn't want to remember seeing him 135 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: going going like this. Um from that room, I didn't. 136 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: I just wanted to go home and hand out Halloween candy. 137 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: And at first, when I started writing about it again, 138 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: this was a simpler time. I used tumbler dot com 139 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: and uh, I password protected it. I don't want anyone 140 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: knowing all my secret feelings. Nobody cared. And then, um, 141 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: I just got tired of writing group emails to people, 142 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: which I'm sure you've written quite a quite a lot 143 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: of group emails lately. You have to keep so many 144 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: people updated when when your life turns upside down. And 145 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: I took the password off it, and I was like, 146 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: I'm only going to be writing here. And it was 147 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 1: immediately not updates about Aaron's cancer. It was observations about 148 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: what it was like to be alive with him, because 149 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: I didn't want him to be a sad story, and 150 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: I could feel that from people. I could feel people 151 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: just like pitying us and feeling bad for us, and 152 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: I hated it, and I truly thought the only people 153 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: who would read something like that would be the people 154 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: who knew us and already and cared about us. But uh, 155 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: it started to be parent that more people were reading 156 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: it than I knew personally. I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, 157 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: and so I know, I mean, I know most of 158 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: the city. There's a good chance I'm related to like 159 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: most people I encounter there. UM, But not everybody knew us, 160 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: But people could understand that feeling, that feeling of being 161 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: so out of control of your life and having your 162 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,959 Speaker 1: life go so off the path that it's supposed to 163 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: when you meet someone and you fall in love, like 164 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: it's just supposed to be good. You know, that's supposed 165 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: to like immediately turned into UM an episode of Gray's Anatomy. 166 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: So when people would begin to respond and and they 167 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: went beyond the people that you knew in Minneapolis, UM, 168 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: was that a feeling of UM supporting community UM? Or 169 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: did you feel in any way like WHOA you know? 170 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: Was there any sense of privacy being invaded? Or you 171 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: know a lot of people know stuff about me and 172 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know them, but they feel they 173 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: know me? Or or did it feel like a good thing. 174 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: I think that if the same thing were to unfold now, 175 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: it would look so drastically different, Like the difference between 176 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen internet and Internet is crazy. It's not even 177 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: it's not even the same world. And so the people 178 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: who were reaching out, we're literally just leaving comments. They 179 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: were um like it was such a it was such 180 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: a smaller system. Does that make sense now? It would 181 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: be there would just be so many ways to access 182 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: that information, and it would be so much more direct. 183 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: And I think that thirty six year old me in 184 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: Internet probably wouldn't do it that same way. But I 185 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: was seven, and it was the year, and I did 186 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: it the way that I knew how, and that felt 187 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: natural all for how I was, And it did feel 188 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: so amazing to have people care, because it's so lonely 189 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: to be sick or to have someone you love be sick, 190 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: and to automatically inhabit this different version of the world 191 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: where you are, where your calendar has all the normal 192 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: stuff on it, like you have a nine am conference 193 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: call and then at one pm you have to go 194 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: pick up your husband and take him to get chemo infusion, 195 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: and your friends care, but they also just don't know 196 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: what that's like. They just don't know. So having people 197 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: from really all over be able to say, I know 198 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: how that feels, I know how you feel like I 199 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: care about this thing that feels too big for you 200 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: to even like talk to anybody face to face about. 201 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: The Internet gave me away to to say the things 202 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: that I could not say to the people who cared 203 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: about me face to face, because it's just so much. 204 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 1: It's so much for a casual conversation ship. When you 205 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: run into a friend of a friend at the co op, 206 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: that's a lot you knows as you're talking. I was 207 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:14,559 Speaker 1: thinking about the difference between writing a book and UM 208 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: and beginning to post online and and ultimately then what 209 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: leads to making a podcast, right, So writing a book, 210 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: which is something you do alone in a room in 211 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: this way, I mean when I when I was writing Inheritance, UM, 212 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: I rented an office that was out of my home. UM. 213 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: And just briefly for anyone who doesn't know what my 214 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: book is about, I UM made the discoveries three years ago, 215 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: almost exactly three three years ago, that my dad who 216 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: raised me had not been my biological father. I had 217 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 1: never known this. UM it was a secret that was 218 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: very much kept from me by my parents. And so 219 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: it was just like identity shifting, um massive shock that 220 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: that happened in my life. Very very different on your story. 221 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: But as I was beginning to work on inheritance, I 222 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: rented an office because I couldn't be in my home 223 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: with all this research that had to do with early 224 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: reproductive medicine in this country, and just some kind of 225 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: crazy details about what people were told and not told, 226 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: and it was very disturbing. It's very disturbing to be 227 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: told that you would be considered an abomination in your 228 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: face because because in Judaism they didn't, you know, rabbis 229 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: didn't believe in artificial insemination, donor insemination and so forth. 230 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: So I would be in this office and I would 231 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: go in every morning, and it was in an empty house. 232 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: A friend who was a lawyer had recently moved his 233 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: law offices and the house was just sitting there for sale. 234 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: But the real estate broker said to me, no one's 235 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: ever going to buy it. You'll be fine, you can 236 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: have every years. And I would go into this completely 237 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: empty house and I would go up the stairs and 238 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: I would unlock the door to my office, and in 239 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: the office there was a beatle, a bug a beatle, 240 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: and it was the only living thing in this house. 241 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: And I would like look forward to seeing the beetle, 242 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: and I would wait for the beetle to make itself 243 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: known each day. And they're like, oh, there's the beetle. Wow, 244 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: the beatles finding something to eat here. It's like, still, 245 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: there's my beetle. That's how solitary it was, right, So 246 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: it's like in a way, And then the experience of 247 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 1: writing a book and publishing a book even is that 248 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: you're not seeing people read it. They're not responding in 249 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: real time. Every once in a while, someone on Instagram 250 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: posts a picture of like, look, there was somebody on 251 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: the subway reading your book. And it's the most amazing 252 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: thing when that happens. But it's not that sense of 253 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: immediate response that that you're describing the feeling of putting something, 254 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: putting a raw and complicated thought out there, and then 255 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: immediately having this world of some version of me too. Yeah, 256 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: And I think that's part of like the addictive nature 257 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: of the Internet. And I will usually say, oh God, 258 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: I hate the Internet. Somebody should find it and unplug 259 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: it and we should all just write each other letters 260 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: and make phone calls on landlines and um. And I 261 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: usually stand by that. And also some of the most 262 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: amazing things that have come out of this experience would 263 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: not have existed without the Internet and without social media. 264 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: I I was never posting things trying to accumulate followers. Um. 265 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: Internet celebrity hadn't wasn't a thing I would say in 266 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: at least not a thing in in my life and 267 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: my world. But what I remember about Aaron being diagnosed 268 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: is immediately googling it, regretting googling it, and committing to 269 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: never looking it up again. Never, never, never, Because the 270 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: only thing that I found out he had stage four 271 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: glioblastoma was that he was going to die. And that 272 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: um when I when I looked, even just just I 273 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: was like, maybe there's something on the second page of 274 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: Google like that would be like, no, we won't UM. 275 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: So I went looking for the like he's not going 276 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: to die page, and all I found was forums of 277 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: of women. This is a cancer that mostly affects men, 278 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: young men. Pages and pages of forums of women who 279 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: were just chronicling their husband's cancer, just their just their sickness, 280 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: the treatment that he was getting the pill, that he 281 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: was taking, the doctor that he had seen, the specialists 282 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: that they had they had gone to for a second opinion, 283 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: and I thought, I don't want that. I don't want that. 284 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: I don't want that life. I don't want Aaron to 285 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: have that life. I want to be people. I want 286 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: everybody who reads anything about us to know that we 287 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: are people and that this is our life. And when 288 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: I look back at those early posts, I was truly 289 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: creating a manual for the people who knew us and 290 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: those who didn't, to say, this is who we are, 291 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: and this is how you should in age with us. 292 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: Do not feel bad for us, you can feel with us. 293 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: And the people who found me were the same women 294 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: who did the same Google search I did, but my 295 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: blog went to the top of those search results, and 296 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: they would just see two people and then eventually a baby, 297 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: also living, just living. I never wrote about what Aaron 298 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: was taking. When people asked me what Aaron was taking, like, frankly, 299 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. For a long time, I thought one 300 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 1: of his infusions was I don't know where I got 301 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: this information, Danny. I was certain. I was like, oh, yeah, 302 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: Aaron goes on Wednesdays, he gets like a vitamin. This 303 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: doctor was like, what that's chemo. I was like, well, 304 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 1: someone once explained to me that it was vitamin drip. 305 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: And he's like, no one ever said that to you. 306 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, that's how I heard it. And guess 307 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: what he felt great after it to be adaptive, right, 308 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: I was like, well, looks, I mean, it's kind of 309 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: the color of a vitamin. I maybe I assumed. I 310 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: don't know, um, very medically minded. Um. I can't remember 311 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: where that story was going. My train of thought is 312 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: literally just a jet ski and so we're going to 313 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 1: go a lot of places, and so let me guide 314 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: you a little yea. So wait, yeah, should be a 315 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: jet ski, I think they have. I think a train. 316 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: I also don't know. I've never been on one, but 317 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: I've seen people use them, and they seem they see 318 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: even a fully dangerous and out of control. So here 319 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: I am so the way that, you know, when people 320 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: have been asking me about family secrets and how it 321 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: came to be, I keep on describing it as some 322 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: combination of um, this very organic thing. I never thought, 323 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: oh podcast, I listened to them, I should make one 324 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: also kind of a happy accident, like some combination of 325 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: like an organic happy accident. And so I guess I'm 326 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: wondering what the moment was for you when you moved 327 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: from I'm posting these, um these bullets like bulletins, this 328 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: kind of in a way educating people in how to 329 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: how to be with me and how to be with Aaron, 330 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: um and maybe even really how to be with anyone 331 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: who's ill into something that you make that's artful and 332 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 1: that um, and then that becomes terrible. Thanks for asking. Yeah, 333 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: I I also didn't set out to be like, oh 334 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: my weight, so my husband has a brain tumor, looks 335 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: like I finally have a book. Um. It wasn't like 336 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: great and he's gonna die awesome, Um great, Um. That 337 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: was not that I really wanted to write a book 338 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,239 Speaker 1: when I was younger. That was about a girl who 339 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: moves to New York and wants to be a writer 340 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: but instead finds herself like in a different kind of 341 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: job and her boss is crazy, and um, that book 342 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: is the devil worst product. Tragically, tragically, it was made 343 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: into a classic film featuring Anne Hathaway, And so I 344 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: was like, well, I guess I'll never be able to 345 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: write a book. Someone beat me to the one story 346 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: I have, And um, I didn't write my blog like 347 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: necessarily hoping that it would be a book. I still 348 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: had a job, you know, I was working every day 349 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: writing tweets for discount hair care companies. Uh seven nine haircuts. 350 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: That's a full tweet, by the way, seven en haircut, 351 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: seven nine haircut this weekend link. Um got paid the 352 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: big books for that. Um. So it's not as if 353 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: I was sitting there, you know, calculating how this could 354 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 1: be a thing. So this is how it happened. This 355 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: is like my origin story. Is that everything that I 356 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: ever posted Aaron read. Aaron saw every picture, he read 357 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: every caption, he read every post. Because it wasn't my story. 358 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: It was the story of our family. And my dad died, 359 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: which I already told you, But guess what my dad's 360 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: dad must say? As many times I can. My dad 361 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: died and I had to write his obituary. And we 362 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: have I have three siblings, and you know, I write 363 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: a draft, they all edit it. It's very it's it's 364 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: the worst collaborative effort that you can imagine. And because 365 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: we're like, I don't know what is important to dad 366 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: like my brother's like, I don't think that's that part's important, Like, well, 367 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, to me, it felt like that was a 368 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: really you always write somebody's obituary customarily after they die, 369 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: which does make sense because it's kind of a bummer 370 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: to right. But I didn't want to go through that again. 371 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to be the person who wrote 372 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: the final word on what Aaron's life meant, because he 373 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: was so unique, he was so funny. And the night 374 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: that he entered hospice and we had no idea what 375 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: that meant other than you can't have any more chemo vitamins. Um. 376 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: We went home and we put our baby to bed, 377 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: and I opened up my laptop and I said, uh, 378 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: I think we have to write your obituary right now, 379 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: and he was like, okay, Um, I really wanted to 380 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: watch Game of Thrones and like, we'll get to that. 381 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: We will, we will do that. And we paused Game 382 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: of Thrones and we sat down and we wrote his 383 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: obituary together, and the first line of it is per 384 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: mort Aaron Joseph Age died on November fourteen due to 385 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: complications from a radioactive spider bite, and UH revealed his 386 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: identity as Spider Man and gave you know, shout out 387 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: to his first wife, Gwen Stefani, and it mentioned, you know, 388 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: the the band that he was in in high school, 389 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,439 Speaker 1: a local a local band called the Asparagus Children. Anyone 390 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: heard of it? Weird? Okay? Where that didn't get past 391 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: Anoka County, Minnesota. Oh strange. And I didn't think that 392 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: they would a blish it, but we wrote it, and 393 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: turns out they will publish it because in obituary is 394 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: an advertisement for your death, so they will you pay 395 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: for it, They'll they'll publish whatever you want. So take 396 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 1: that knowledge home tonight. And they published it after Aaron 397 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: died and it went viral like crazy everywhere on the internet. 398 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: That I that I looked for distraction from planning his funeral, 399 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: which actually he planned so I really didn't have much 400 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: to do but implementing those plans. Um, he was there, 401 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: his face was there, and it's because it was so 402 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: true to who he was, and that is so rare. 403 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: That's not something that you see all the time. It 404 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: was people. People loved that. And a woman named Jessica 405 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: Regal emailed me and said, I'm so sorry about your husband. 406 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: Um and you know, I'm a I'm an agent. Maybe 407 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: in like five years, you'd want to write a book. 408 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: And I replied and I was like, I probably would 409 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: write it now, honestly, And she was like, that sounds insane. 410 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: We'll talking in five years, and I was, no, I 411 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: really do I want to write it now, because I 412 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 1: there are so many books written from distance of time, 413 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: and those are wonderful. A lot of them helped me 414 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: when I was when Aaron was diagnosed, after Aaron had died, 415 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: and I wanted to write something while I was in it, 416 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: while I was in all of that chaos, because being 417 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: in something is also a perspective. And so I two 418 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: months after Aaron died, I was here in New York City, Uh, 419 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: wearing so many I was wearing like an outfit from 420 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: Jay Crew, like on the on the I can't think 421 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: of the word mannequin. That's the word where you know 422 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: they dressed Jay Crew models or mannequins, and many layers. 423 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: It's it's too many layers. Was it winter? It was winter, 424 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: but not that winter, not like a sweater shirt and 425 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: a jacket winter. It was too much. I thought I 426 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: was going to die, but instead I sold a book 427 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: we're going to pause for a moment. Let's let's go 428 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: to the idea of immediacy for a minute, because I 429 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: think that that's actually really UM, I think it's key 430 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: to both of our stories and both of our experiences. 431 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, Inheritance is my tenth book I owe and 432 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: fifth memoir, and I always believed that it was impossible 433 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,120 Speaker 1: to write anything good out of immediate experience, out of 434 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,360 Speaker 1: sort of the raw immediacy, and UM, and I think 435 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 1: it's it's definitely like you know the commercials say, like, 436 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 1: you know, don't try this at home, or because I, 437 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: for me, UM, the story of Inheritance, I didn't want 438 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: to tell from my rocking chair someday. I wanted to 439 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: capture it as it was unfolding, or maybe was a 440 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: half a step away from it enough to have a 441 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: little bit of a way of pivoting toward it and 442 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: away from it. But it felt essential that it be 443 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 1: told that way. UM, And I wonder whether to take 444 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: it a step further than in podcasting. There's such intimacy 445 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 1: in in podcasting. It's intimate in the way that it's made, 446 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: in the conversations that you know that you have with 447 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: your guests, or that I have was my guests is 448 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: intimate in the way that it's listened to. Uh, at 449 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: least his intimate is reading because you know, you've got 450 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: these you know, air pods in or whatever they're called, 451 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: and you know, or you're in your car alone. People 452 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: don't have like podcast listening parties, at least not yet. 453 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: I mean maybe a little become a thing, um, but 454 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: it's something that people do by themselves. And so there's 455 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: this there's this voice in literally become the voice in 456 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 1: someone's head. So so then how does how does it 457 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: go from you know, you're in these j crue layers 458 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: and you sell the book and it's two months after 459 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: Aaron died to um it becoming the birth of a podcast. 460 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: Did you intend for that to happen? Because another thing 461 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: that I think that happens with people a lot um 462 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: when they see see something that works a book, a 463 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: short story, an essay, a podcast, there's always like retrospective intentionality, like, oh, 464 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: this must have been the plan all along and that's 465 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: why it's a thing. And as about me, it's so flattering. 466 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: Everyone thinks, right, it was on it was on a 467 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: list of this is how you're going to be about it. 468 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: It's almost never the case that that's what it is now. 469 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: I uh. I was unemployed, so an unemployed widowed mom 470 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: with a toddler and a mortgage. I sold a book. 471 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,679 Speaker 1: I started trying to do freelance copyrighting on the side. 472 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:42,719 Speaker 1: But I had this other full time job, which was 473 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: managing the emotions of anyone who had read that obituary, 474 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: and anybody whose husband was sick, and anybody's husband who 475 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: had died, and they would email me. It would email 476 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: me because I was a person who had said something 477 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: about it, and their friends and family didn't know how 478 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: to talk about it, and so they weren't talking about it. 479 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: And so I spent every night going through my emails 480 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: and replying to every single person so that they would 481 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: feel like someone out in the world heard them and 482 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: felt with them, and that they weren't so alone, because 483 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: you have to be pretty alone in this world to 484 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: spill your guts to an absolute stranger over email. UM 485 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night. And I know because 486 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: I've done that. I have done that, Cheryl Strait, you 487 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: got gotten several messages for me like UM. I did not. 488 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 1: I did not think, oh, like this would make a 489 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: this would make a great podcast everything that I've done, 490 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: because I also feel I am a lucky person. Aaron died, 491 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: he did not have life insurance. I quit my job 492 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: by not going, which was I don't advise that, UM, 493 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: but I was like, oh my god, I've forgotten, and 494 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: also I don't want to do it. UM. But so 495 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: many people, if you are lucky enough to be employed 496 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: full time time and in benefits, go ahead tonight and 497 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: read them because you probably have three to five business 498 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: days of bereavement leaf if your husband dies, if your 499 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: wife dies, you have no time. You have to get 500 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: back to real life. And many many women who I 501 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 1: was talking to her fielding their their emails, they didn't 502 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: have that. They had nothing, They had even less than nothing. 503 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: Aaron did not have life insurance. But I had a 504 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: mom who was still alive, who had a house that 505 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: it could and did end up living in as a 506 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: thirty one year old mom. That felt great. We were 507 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: not the best of roommates, but I still do love 508 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: her UM and mostly it's mutual. I do feel but terrible. 509 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for asking was like the next the thing that 510 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 1: I could do that seemed like it would it would 511 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: help it would it would help all of these people 512 00:29:53,840 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: feel less lonely. So the first season is every single 513 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: story is from my inbox. My first season, all ten 514 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: episodes are all people who had emailed me before I 515 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,719 Speaker 1: had a podcast, before I had anything, people who had 516 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: just sent me a message about something. I replied to 517 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: them and said, so, if I had a podcast, which 518 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 1: I don't, um, would you want to be on it? 519 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: And they were like that sounds great. The title is 520 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: a rejected title for my first book, right, um, So 521 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: I had a title, I had an inbox full of 522 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: sad stories, and I had um nothing more to lose, 523 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: And so I sent out a tweet and I said, 524 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: who in Minnesota makes podcasts? Great? Didn't even google it? Okay, 525 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: I was like, right to right to Twitter, And if 526 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I saw that tweet, I would be like google it, 527 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: dou fas. But someone who's nicer than me was like, 528 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: there is there is someone who makes podcasts in Minnesota. 529 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: His name is Hans Buto, and that man became my 530 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: producer and we created this show together and and that's 531 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: that's how it all happened. And I do, I do. 532 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: I would love to be able to say like this 533 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: was all the plan. But really I do know one thing, 534 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: which is that the plan was to at least make 535 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: a thing. Every episode is a thing that somebody can 536 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: point to and say like, it felt like this, or 537 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: it parts of it, it feels like at five minutes 538 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: and thirty eight seconds, that's how I feel. That's how 539 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: I feel. So you and I talked on the phone 540 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: the other day about whether this kind of work is 541 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: therapeutic or cathartic. People will often say about writing memoir 542 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: and they will also say about um, this kind of 543 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: podcast either family secrets or terrible things for asking a 544 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: feeling of um. Is this somehow like a form of 545 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 1: therapy or um? I remember years ago, as a memoirist, 546 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: somebody for the first time asking me a question about 547 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: my first memoir, the it must feel so cast a question, 548 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: and at the time I actually found it like I've 549 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 1: bristled at it. It was like, it's not catharsis, it's 550 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: art um. And of course these are not mutually exclusive, 551 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: but I wonder and I actually don't find writing memoirkus arctic, 552 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: but I do and have found the conversations that I 553 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: have um either when I'm I mean the various places 554 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: where I record family secrets, my basement in Connecticut and 555 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: my son's old playroom, like hunched over my recording equipment 556 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: with like the big stuffed you know, hippopotamus from when 557 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: he was to sitting in the corner and like you know, 558 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: baseball paraphernalia and stuff like that very glamorous, or in 559 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: the studio with my guest on the phone, or with 560 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: my guest in the room. Um, and it almost doesn't 561 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: matter where or even whether the guest is in the room. 562 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: And actually I remember you saying to me early on, 563 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: it can feel even more intimate when the guest is 564 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: not in the room. You're just in this kind of 565 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: cocoon of just voices and silence and pauses and um. 566 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: And this this interaction that can feel almost like a 567 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: confessional booth in some way. And to me that has 568 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: felt I don't like words like cathartic or or therapeutic, 569 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: but there's something that happens that really feels transformative, both 570 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: hopefully for the guest but for me. So I'm wondering. 571 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: You know, you were talking about starting it thinking I 572 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: want to give something to all these people who are 573 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: flooding my inbox. But what has it done for you also, 574 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: people who listen to your podcast find it therapeutic, and 575 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: that's a very good I know a lot of sobbing. 576 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: Sobbing by the side of the road over everyone's looking 577 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: for a way to cry in their car or on 578 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: the subway, whatever is available to you. A big fan 579 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: of like a good public cry. The first season sounds 580 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: so different than the current season, and that is because 581 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: it was my form of therapy. I was. I mean, 582 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: so much was happening in my life that had not 583 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: been included in the book, because it happens. You write 584 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: a book and then life has happened after you turned in, 585 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: after you turned in the final draft, and after it 586 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 1: comes out, and all of these things had happened. I 587 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: had um met a man and I had fallen in 588 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: love with him, and we had I had gotten pregnant, 589 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: not in that order, and uh and we blended this 590 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: family and it was so wonderful. And also for the 591 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: first time I had stopped moving since Aaron died, and 592 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: I was present with love and with like this newness 593 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: and it was my grief just catching up with me. 594 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: And you can hear that in the first season for sure. 595 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: Is that all of the things that I thought that, um, 596 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 1: that I had processed by writing a book or by 597 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: starting you know this nonprofit, uh still kicking that that 598 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: honors my husband and anybody going through something hard by 599 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:13,879 Speaker 1: just staying busy. I felt like maybe maybe I wouldn't have. Yeah, 600 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: I felt like I would avoid the grief like it 601 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: would expire and I'd have like I would have just 602 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: avoided it like a genius. Like I don't know why 603 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: everybody doesn't do that, Like you just stay really busy. 604 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: Time passes and like you've ducked down and the grief 605 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: has shot overhead. It totally missed you, and instead it 606 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: had completely just decimated me. And so much of that 607 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 1: first season is me digging through that, along with my 608 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: guests and their stories that are about not that at all. 609 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: You know. What's so interesting nor though, is it's possible 610 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 1: for something to be as beautifully produced as your show 611 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: is and to be stark ly honest. They're not, They're 612 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive. Um. I think we sing to go 613 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: back to Instagram and social media like that. The more 614 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,480 Speaker 1: produced something is, the more it means that it's kind 615 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: of burnished and therefore somehow not real, not true. Um. 616 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: And yet I think that. When I first heard your show, 617 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: I thought, oh that I want. I want to do 618 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 1: something that's going to be beautifully produced, that can be 619 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: heard and listened to and shaped and there there's there's 620 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: music in there, and they're sound in there, and there's 621 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: real artfulness in there. And at the same time it's 622 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: it's true, and there's rawness, and there's honesty, and there's 623 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,760 Speaker 1: vulnerability that often overused word, but it's really there within 624 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: the container of this um beautifully produced thing. Yeah, Danny 625 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: is like really smart. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, I completely agree. 626 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: It is art. We're going to open it up to 627 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: questions in a minute. The tempt someone posted a picture 628 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: of us at a different event and was like the 629 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: Queen the Joker, and I was like, it was accurate. 630 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: It was not me. I reposted it because I was like, 631 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: that's actually, it's actually very accurate. And in the picture, 632 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, Danny's like, we're talking about a book. I'm like, 633 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: are we um? So episode zero of my podcast is 634 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: was not planned. We were not making an episode zero. 635 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: We're supposed start with number one. But I had a 636 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 1: baby right before the podcast was supposed to come out. 637 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: I had not told anybody that I was pregnant, including 638 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: the people who worked on my podcast, because I do 639 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: believe the world to be like an inherently sexist place, 640 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: and I just was like, I don't know, if anyone 641 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: knows I'm pregnant, they're really going to try to promote 642 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: a show made by a woman who just had a baby. 643 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I'm not being generous enough, but 644 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: that's what I did. And you can hear in that episode, um, 645 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: I'm holding a baby. I'm holding a two day old 646 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: baby and recording a podcast. And because it just felt 647 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: like I wanted to put something out there that was 648 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: that was real and that was produced, I did it 649 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,120 Speaker 1: in a studio. I took my baby with no immune 650 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: system out into the world. I was like, honey, the 651 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: world needs this content. Um. But because I've been so 652 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: deeply depressed during my pregnancy and I was automatically just 653 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: had postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression, and I wanted to 654 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: tell that story that sometimes it is more complicated than 655 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: it looks, because from the outside, at the time my 656 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: life did look and was it was really good. Like 657 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: it's hard to write a better happy ending than a 658 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 1: widowed mom meeting a divorce dad and all the kids 659 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: falling in love and then you moved to the suburbs 660 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: and you get a minivan and a rescue dog. That's 661 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: a pretty good story. And also I was so sad, 662 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,359 Speaker 1: it was just so sad. So um, so yes, I'll 663 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: and plus i'll smart things to Danny. So yeah, so 664 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 1: I think, you know, i'd love to you know, when 665 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 1: it comes to I mean, everything that we're talking about, 666 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about life, um, and I think both of 667 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,319 Speaker 1: our shows are really about that, really about life. And 668 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: we talked a lot um earlier about again the kind 669 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,960 Speaker 1: of burnishment of social media and all that stuff. And 670 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: I feel like there are these places out there that 671 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: are like respites from that, you know, that are you know, 672 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: like it's really not um. I mean, I know for 673 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: myself that I am constantly working against. I don't want 674 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: people to mistake my life for being um perfect, fabulous, 675 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: photoshopped in some way. And I mean these days there's 676 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: probably not much of a chance of people doing that, 677 00:39:55,320 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: but it's happened a lot over time. And my only 678 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,280 Speaker 1: is to kind of move into that place of let's 679 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: talk about the and here, you know, not the either 680 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: or but the like this and this, you know that 681 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: the you you have talked a lot about um and 682 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: early early in the first season you you you talk 683 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,800 Speaker 1: about loving two men, you know, having two husbands, having 684 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: a child with each of them, and it's this great 685 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 1: you know, comic of course because it's you, but also 686 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: a very very real sort of introduction to this is 687 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 1: this messy, complicated, beautiful, painful, tragic, which is to say, 688 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: human life. And I think that that's what you know, 689 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: that's what resonates about these kinds of stories. And I 690 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: think it's like that for most people, but we just 691 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: don't know it typically, especially in marketing UM marketing books 692 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: like this book is it's on. It's an escape from 693 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 1: every day. But the reason that podcasts like this work 694 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,520 Speaker 1: and are popular is because what you need an escape 695 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: from is this oppressively optimistic American um social media in 696 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 1: uh uh faned But just like this, this oppressively optimistic 697 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 1: point of view, which is that if something happens, then 698 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:25,759 Speaker 1: the next thing that happens is like you get over it. 699 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,760 Speaker 1: If somebody hits you in the face with the lemon 700 00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: it turned to lemonade on your face, or like a 701 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: nice vitamin c Serum while it was on there, um 702 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,320 Speaker 1: like you're you're definitely supposed to find the silver lining 703 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: as soon as possible so that people can feel inspired 704 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: by you. And we need stories that are not just bummers. 705 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: Nobody's interested in in a story that is just a 706 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,800 Speaker 1: sad story. And also nobody's story is just a sad story, 707 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: even if your story makes people really sad, even if 708 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: people are like, Danny, your dad wasn't your dad? Like 709 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: your story is also a story about love and and 710 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: and life in all of its complications. And I do 711 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: want my kids to know more than anything that this 712 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,439 Speaker 1: is not the exception to the rule, like at all, 713 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,319 Speaker 1: Like this is just the rule. Actually, like really really 714 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: bad things are going to happen in your life and 715 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: also really good things, and then most of it is 716 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 1: going to be so dull you won't remember it. Like 717 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,680 Speaker 1: today on the airport, on the airport, on the airplane, 718 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: I looked over there's a woman sitting next to me 719 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm sorry, did I stand up 720 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: to let you in or did you have to climb 721 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 1: over me? And she was like you stood up? And 722 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: I was like, I have no memory, no memory of 723 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 1: standing up for you just want to make sure I'm 724 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,839 Speaker 1: not the worst person on this plane. That is how 725 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: dull most of our lives are. Like I was like, 726 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: I don't even remember standing up for you, lady. That's 727 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,239 Speaker 1: a little of an impression. Like, so anytime like and 728 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: it's all temporary, and most of it is going to 729 00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: be just like a five, and that's a pretty good day. 730 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: And so when you're having a one, like, you'll be 731 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: at a five soon enough. When you're at a ten, like, 732 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: savor the flavor because you're gonna be leveling out all 733 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: over again. Virginia Wolf describes that as the cotton woolf. 734 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: It's like the cotton woolf of daily existence. That's what 735 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: we're in most of the time. And there's one thing 736 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: that I want to like, just and this part of 737 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:29,399 Speaker 1: the conversation with which is terrible, thanks for asking. There's 738 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: also there's I have this dear friend Buddhist teacher or 739 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,359 Speaker 1: some of you may uh no or have encountered named 740 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: Sylvia Borstein um and um. Sylvia's version of that when 741 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: somebody says how are you is couldn't be better? Always true, 742 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,240 Speaker 1: not couldn't be better, but just couldn't be better. Can't 743 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,560 Speaker 1: be better than I am right now, so maybe that's 744 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: the sequel. This equal pretty okay, pretty all right? Thank 745 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:11,360 Speaker 1: you for inquiring. Ah. I'd like to thank Rizzoli Bookstore 746 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: for hosting the live taping of Family Secrets and Derrek 747 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: Clemens for recording it. And i'd like to thank Nora mcinnerney. 748 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: If you haven't already, be sure to check out and 749 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: subscribe to her podcast, Terrible Thanks for asking. Family Secrets 750 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:40,040 Speaker 1: is an i Heeart Media production. For more podcasts for 751 00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, visit the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 752 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,