1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: What era of feminism do you think we're in right now? 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Is there a new era like in ten years? What 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: do you think we're going to say about this time? 4 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: Looking back? 5 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 2: I have four year old twins. 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 3: I have a boy and a girl, and I see 7 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 3: the ways in which people are raising kids now is 8 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 3: so different from even how I was raised, I'm sure 9 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 3: from how you were raised. Like the ways in which 10 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 3: we teach kids to think about their own bodies, to 11 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 3: think about caring for each other, the ways in which 12 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 3: we teach them to think about what boys and girls 13 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 3: are capable of, and how to be friends with each other. 14 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 2: I don't know. 15 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 3: I mean I have to feel hopeful. You have to 16 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 3: hope that kids are being set up for a future 17 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 3: where they think about each other differently and they respect 18 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 3: each other. 19 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 1: I do think we could be in a moment where 20 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: people really want to they want something new, and it 21 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: almost feels like the times are so desperate for it, 22 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: the way things are shifting, like, I feel a lot 23 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: of hope and optimism. We have the power to shape 24 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: the way we think, to correct the cultural wrongs of 25 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: the past for future generations. 26 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 4: But first we have to. 27 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: Take a long, hard look at what we're untangling ourselves 28 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: from I'm hopewittered and welcome to voiceover a space where 29 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're taught about 30 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: love and relationships. I was born in nineteen ninety six, 31 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 1: the same year Wanna Be By the Spice Girls came out. 32 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: Little did I know that was a turning point in 33 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: culture that meant I would be thrust into a childhood 34 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: inundated with young, beautiful, skinny girls who danced, sang, partied, 35 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: and most importantly, were shiny objects of male desire. At 36 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: least that's what I was told. That's the model of 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: womanhood that I was supposed to achieve. People Brittany Lindsay 38 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: and Paris were the pinnacles of cool girls. I was 39 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: personally looking up to Hillary Duff and Mary Kate n Ashley. 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: I now know that these women's personas were images crafted 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: that portrayed unrealistic standards, that we were so mean to 42 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: these young girls learning to exist in the public eye. 43 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: But what I absorbed about womanhood, sex, and desire at 44 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: this time is still something I'm trying to unlearn. My 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: next guest, Sophie Gilbert, and her new book Girl on 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: Girl made me realize just how ingrained those values are 47 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: in my very being. It looks back to the culture 48 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: of the nineties and early two thousands to examine the 49 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: way it warped womanhood as an experience to be consumed 50 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 1: for men, and how that affected how women see themselves. 51 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: It goes deeper than tabloids and music videos to some 52 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: unexpectedly dark places. I found it so fast and think 53 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: this is critical reading for anyone who's trying to untangle 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: what you actually want from what. 55 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 4: You were taught to want. 56 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I also want to acknowledge during this interview, I was 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: getting over a cold, so my voice sounds a little 58 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: raspier than usual, but it's kind of nice. Here's my 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: conversation with Sophie. I loved reading about the term girl power. 60 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: I loved reading about its origin and how it was 61 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: taken and turned into something so much sweeter and so 62 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: much more marketable for listeners. Can you walk through that 63 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: transition that the term girl power took? 64 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I should say I'm forty two now. So 65 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: I was a little bit too young for Riako. I 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: think I was thirteen in nineteen ninety six one I 67 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 3: when the Spice Girls debut as a band. So that 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: was my first introduction to the term girl power. I'd 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: never heard it in its original in its original iteration, 70 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 3: so it was really interesting to go back and to 71 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: learn about the moment when girl power as a slogan 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: was created, and it was created by two members of 73 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 3: the band Bikini Killed, the punk band, who were trying 74 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 3: to pair two words together that no one would normally associate, 75 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 3: and so they decided to put together girl and power, 76 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 3: and the intention of pairing those words was to make 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 3: people think, like, why don't girls have power? Why do 78 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 3: we assume that girls and power don't go together? Like 79 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 3: it had all this energy behind it, and it had 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 3: sort of a lot of force and intention and rit 81 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 3: Girl as a form of punk music was all about 82 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 3: carving out space for women in music and speaking out 83 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: about sexual assault and misogyny of all different kinds. And 84 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 3: it was this really kind of ferocious activist movement that 85 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 3: was full of intention and power. And then the Spice 86 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: Girls came along, and I described it recently to someone 87 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 3: as that moment in movies when everything goes from black 88 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 3: and white to color, because they were so colorful, they 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: were so vivid, they were so vibrant, and I remember 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: at thirteen just being like ah in thraw wanting to 91 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: buy everything that they were selling, and they were selling 92 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: a lot. They had something like five hundred million dollars 93 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 3: worth of commercial deals within the first year and a 94 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:10,239 Speaker 3: half as a band. 95 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 2: Like they had. 96 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 3: Body spray, they had ry lollipops, they had everything. Someone 97 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: told me on'n too they had a spiceculls toaster. 98 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, of course, I mean, I'm sure, I'm 99 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: sure of court anything you could imagine. 100 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: But back then it was just this moment where they 101 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: were just capitalizing on their massive instant global fame, almost 102 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 3: and they took this slogan girl power and they cleaned 103 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 3: it for themselves, But it was the ways in which 104 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 3: they used it Suddenly it had lost all its activist energy. 105 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: It wasn't about forcing people to think about girls in 106 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: power or society or assumptions about femininity or anything. It 107 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,799 Speaker 3: was just about celebrating what girls are doing in media, 108 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: like it was about celebrating their presence as a band. 109 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: One of the best things I think you wrote about 110 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: that specifically is when you were like girl power was 111 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: now turned into running around like toddlers and knocking everything over. 112 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 3: It's what they do in the video of for Wannabe, 113 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 3: Like they just storm into this event where they're not 114 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 3: invited and they start like throwing things on the ground 115 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 3: and like dancing on tables, and it really reminded me 116 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: of my total is it? 117 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: And of course no, And like immediately I thought that 118 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: visual was like so clear and such a clear way 119 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: to see that transition from like girl power as a punk. 120 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: I don't want to say angry, but a little bit 121 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 1: angry at all, which is good, which is good. Like 122 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: I think when it comes to women in our anger, 123 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: like we are so not allowed to express that anger. 124 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: And the Spice Girls, I think just took everything out 125 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: of it that was difficult. 126 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 4: So much of this book it's like, Okay, I'm shocked. 127 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: I haven't thought about it that way, But now that 128 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about it that way makes sense completely. When 129 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: you talked about how a lot of your research kind 130 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: of came back to the porn industry, can you tell 131 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: me about what made you realize porn had kind of 132 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: infiltrated every piece of our culture and media. 133 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: It was funny because originally I did not think pornan 134 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: would be so prominent throughout the book, But I had 135 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: all these questions, right, like, how did the culture of 136 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 3: the two thousands get so cruel? How were we persuaded 137 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 3: to be so judgmental and so vicious towards ourselves towards 138 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: other women? 139 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: Why was reality TV so cruel? 140 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: Why would we so mean to Brittany in Paris and 141 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 3: Lunday and Amy and all these women who we just 142 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: kind of were stalked by photographers for the best part 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 3: of a decade, and wanting to understand the why of that. 144 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: A lot of the cruelty seemed to keep coming back 145 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 3: to this shift in porn that happened really around the 146 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 3: late nineties, and it was sort of the result of 147 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 3: a lot of things. I think in the book, I 148 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: mentioned the AIDS crisis being one thing that suddenly prompted 149 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: a lot more sort of frank discussion of sexuality in 150 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: media as a matter of public health, Like suddenly people 151 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: couldn't be skittish about sex anymore, Like there was the 152 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: to be a lot more explicit about how, for example, 153 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: AIDS was transmitted as a virus, and that required a 154 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: lot more openness about sex and media. But the nineties suddenly, 155 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: like they were just this kind of heavily sexualized decade, 156 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: like the president had a sex scandal, Like people I 157 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: think previously had never thought about the president's venis. But 158 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 3: you know, I remember learning about blowjobs when Hugh Grant 159 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: was arrested when I was maybe thirteen, twelve or thirteen. 160 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 3: He was arrested for picking up a sex worker in 161 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 3: Los Angeles, and I remember asking my aunt at the time, 162 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 3: like what had happened and her telling me, and me 163 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 3: made my own like I'd never use those terms. But 164 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: it was like this new openness, I think because there 165 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: was so much going on in the media that was 166 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: suddenly so sexual. Not suddenly, but this willingness to sort 167 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: of discuss it in tabloid form was pretty new, I 168 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 3: think for media row And then also, of course, underlying 169 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: everything was the huge rise in the number of people 170 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 3: watching porn as their cultural pastime. I mean, it's hard 171 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: to measure because people don't often confess openly about their 172 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: poor habits, but one statistic in the book is in 173 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: the mid eighties, just when VHS was first launch, there 174 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 3: was something like sixty six million rentals of pornographic vhs 175 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: is in America in a single year, and by the 176 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: mid nineties, it was closer to seven hundred million. Wow, 177 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: that was huge, like tenfold rise in the number of 178 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: people were renting porn just on vhs. And then of 179 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: course the Internet happened, and that was just like really 180 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: massive growth again because it was this whole new world online. 181 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: There was this sense that it was like fun and 182 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 3: it was liberating and it was exciting, and it was 183 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 3: all across culture, like it was in music videos, it 184 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: was in fashion magazines, like everything suddenly was like much 185 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: more sexualized than it had been before. And a result 186 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: of that, I think was that porn, which by its 187 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 3: nature is transgressive, had to become more extreme to get 188 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 3: people to keep paying for it. And so you do 189 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 3: see this sort of shift towards extremity and towards cruelty 190 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 3: that then filtered out, I think, into the culture and 191 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: the rest of the two thousands. 192 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: You bring up American Pie, and I mean, we could 193 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: go a hundred different ways on how to talk about 194 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: like how this specifically impacted culture and mindsets when it 195 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: comes to gender and sex. But can you speak to 196 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: how you think that movie and movies like it shaped 197 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: the way men and women understand sex. 198 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 3: So I just remembered seeing American Pie when I was sixteen, 199 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: I think, in high school and seeing it with a 200 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,199 Speaker 3: bunch of my friends male and female, and not really 201 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 3: thinking much of it, like I think, feeling like, oh, 202 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 3: that's like it was funny, we loved at it, like 203 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 3: there was some raunchie scenes whatever, but it really did 204 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: seem to kind of ignite something among my male friends 205 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: in terms of feelings of entitlement and feelings of it 206 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 3: sort of seemed to give them license, I think, to 207 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 3: think about sex is not just something that is important 208 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 3: in terms of the relationships that you're in and something 209 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: that you discuss with your girlfriend or like it was. 210 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: It seemed to be something much more that you could 211 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: use as bragging rights with other boys. 212 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 2: Totally, and it certainly you. 213 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: See the way in which American Pie, I think portrays it, 214 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: which became very very popular in the movies that came after, 215 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 3: is that it's this kind of heroic path from like 216 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: boy to man, right, and if you lose your virginity, 217 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: it cements your sort of transition into adulthood, your transition 218 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 3: into like full blown masculinity, and it's it's seen as 219 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: this like real, real kind of hero's journey in the 220 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 3: very sort of traditional narrative sense. But what that does, 221 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 3: I think is it kind of takes away agency from 222 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 3: women or it certainly like distracts them from the question 223 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 3: I remember feeling as a girl, like there's much less 224 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: emphasis on what do we actually want, Like what do 225 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 3: you desire? What is important to you as a as 226 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 3: a girl or as a woman in that time. And 227 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 3: I think something that came out of that that I 228 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 3: see more and more now is like this refusal to 229 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 3: accept that women are fully fledged human beings who are 230 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: equal to men, who deserve credit, equal who have like 231 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:58,199 Speaker 3: equal humanity, who have equal agency, who deserve like equal 232 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: respect and attention. I feel so much now. It's certainly 233 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 3: an online culture, this idea that like menages superior, and 234 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: women in so many factions of the internet are just 235 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: not seen as fully human. In some ways, what. 236 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: It brought up for me was the fact that like 237 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: nobody gets to be fully human, Like the men don't 238 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: get to express their softness and like you said, express 239 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: their need for love, where like everybody has to be 240 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: a character. It really takes away everyone's agency, Like to me, 241 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: nobody is winning. 242 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 4: Something you talk about is fairy tale logic. 243 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: Which is this idea that someone needs to break their curse, 244 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: so to speak, and that there has to be some 245 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: villain that is withholding that prize or that ending that 246 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: they want. How do you think that fairy tale logic 247 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: is still kind of showing up today? 248 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: When I went back to look at the movies, it 249 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: was astonishing to see how little movies in the two 250 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 3: thousands cared about women, right, and how women really was 251 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: tootyped in like three ways. They were either sex objects, 252 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 3: or they were like boring skolds, or you know, they 253 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: were like the wives who didn't want their husbands to 254 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: go to Las Vegas. 255 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: Right. 256 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: There was sort of no narrative potential for women. 257 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,599 Speaker 3: And I mean, obviously there are exceptions, but there was 258 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: also this real trend in filmmaking of showing kind of 259 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: these slubby, not super appealing men who didn't have their 260 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 3: lives together and weren't kind of prepossessing in anyway, who 261 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,599 Speaker 3: were redeemed by the love of a woman who was 262 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: much much, much hotter the. 263 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 4: Like. 264 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: There are so many movies that told this story, and 265 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,319 Speaker 3: it really is like kiss a frog storytelling throughout the 266 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 3: course of the two thousands, like I'm thinking obviously knocked 267 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 3: up the forty year Old Virgin. I mean a lot 268 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: of these very funny like in some of these very 269 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,720 Speaker 3: very sweet films, But when you look at the pattern 270 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: that is then created and the culture that is created 271 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: around that pattern, and you see like a good five 272 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 3: year period where all our movies are about sort of 273 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 3: men being redeemed by the love of a super hot 274 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 3: and very forgiving woman, that does send out a message 275 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: that I think people are absorbing. And it was much 276 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: less to me about focusing on any one thing than 277 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 3: about identifying the message and figuring out what it was 278 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 3: telling us and what we in turn took away from it. 279 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: And I think it also says something about like we're 280 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: resonating with it. It did well at the box office, 281 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: so like what foundation had already been laid for that 282 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: movie to come in and be so impactful and then 283 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: to be able to be repeated over and over and 284 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: over again. It's like Chicken or the Egg kind of 285 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: conversation to me. 286 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: And that's the money aspect of it too, Like the 287 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: Spice Girls were so successful that people saw dollar signs 288 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: that sent us away from this era of like empowered 289 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: women in rock towards sort of much more heavily sexualized teenagers. 290 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: I mean, the success of American Pie just meant that 291 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 3: we had like infinite imitations and they go, yeah, I think, 292 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 3: progressively worse as the two thousands went on, and a 293 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: lot more misogynistic. 294 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: And so it's always. 295 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: About kind of trends in any different kind of form 296 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: of media that it always about replications money and trying 297 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: to make more money. 298 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: I want to take a bit of a I guess 299 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: a darker turn. Oh boy, yeah, sorry, I'm unsure if 300 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: American Pie came out before or after nine to eleven. 301 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: But you bring up the war in this book, and 302 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why it's so important is because 303 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: again we've seen this resurgence of women starving themselves, like 304 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: ruining women in the media, like women losing their rights. 305 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: And one of the things that is a common thread 306 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: between these two times is the American impact in the 307 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: Middle East and watching war kind of unfold in front 308 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: of us. I don't want to say I'm glad you 309 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: put it in, because it's difficult to use the word 310 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: glad in the same sentence as this moment in like 311 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: American history, but I do think it shines light also 312 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: on things that are happening right now in the Middle 313 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: East again because of America. So what did you want 314 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: readers to understand about how sex and domination are operating 315 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: not just in culture but also kind of in how 316 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: America sees itself. And what did you want readers to 317 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: take away from bringing up this specific very. 318 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 4: Dark moment in American war crimes? 319 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 2: Oh my god, so dot it like that? 320 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: APPI Grape was a prison camp in Iraq where American 321 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 3: soldiers kept Iraqi prisoners. I think it was around two 322 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 3: thousand and five, two thousand and three, maybe photographs emerged 323 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: of scenes of very heavily sexualized torture of Iraqi prisoners 324 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 3: by American soldiers. And I knew that I had seen 325 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: the images. I'd been appalled by them like contemporaneously back then, 326 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: and I remember Iraqi prison is being hooded and held 327 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 3: on and human pyramids. But what really shocked me when 328 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 3: I went back to revisit the images was how much 329 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: they seemed to be kind of emulating porn. 330 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 2: And then if you look at them. 331 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 3: As sort of photographic archetypes, they seemed to be capturing 332 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: a moment in which the meaning of photographs was changing, 333 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: Like photographs were going from this thing that you did 334 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 3: with your family, its special occasions, like you know, you 335 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 3: take pictures at them, moll, you take pictures at weddings, 336 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,640 Speaker 3: you take pictures at Christmas. Suddenly there was a shift 337 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 3: in technology. It was much easier to capture photos, and 338 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: you would they sort of had it. It changed the 339 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 3: meaning and in the ways in which we were all 340 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 3: taking them and using them and replicating them. 341 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 2: And that obviously had its own. 342 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 3: Impact in terms of I'm sure you remember, like the 343 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 3: rise of sex tapes and the rise of sexual imagery 344 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 3: and nudes being passed around without women's consent, and there 345 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 3: was a sort of photographic imagery where we all had 346 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 3: to figure out like what the boundaries would be, of course, 347 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: and so looking at these pictures in which the American 348 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 3: soldiers were sort of posing with thumbs up, they reminded 349 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 3: me of a lot of not just the porn, but 350 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,199 Speaker 3: also with a lot of fashion imagery shot by a 351 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 3: photographer called Terry Richardson who was known for this very 352 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: like highly sexualized sort of kind of ironic jokey but 353 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 3: like often pictures of his penis, pictures of naked medals, 354 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: like a lot of sexual content in his photographs, and 355 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: I wasn't the only one to notice that. He himself 356 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 3: had written about it in a book of his work, 357 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 3: where he'd mentioned that the Abi Grave images to him 358 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 3: just looked like porn and that was just what people 359 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: did now. They kept like photographs of sexual encounters and 360 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 3: they showed their friends and it was kind of new normal. 361 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 3: But the images from Abbi Groupe seemed to really reflect 362 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: It's something that we had all absorbed, I think, which 363 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 3: was this use of sex as a kind of affirmation 364 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 3: of male dominance and of male power, and the ways 365 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 3: in which that was being used in this Iraqi prison 366 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 3: camp was also something that was being felt across culture 367 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 3: more broadly. So it is a very dark chapter and 368 00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm sorry for everyone, but it felt that 369 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 3: was one of the kind of light bulb moments for me. 370 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 3: Oh and then I think I found from twenty ten 371 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: and American apparel add this stage female models and a 372 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 3: human pyramid that seemed to be directly imitating the Abi 373 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 3: Grave images as well, and that just seemed like this 374 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 3: conflation of I don't know, fashion and sex and abusive imagery, 375 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 3: but also this sense of like some human bodies being 376 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 3: worth less than others was very dominant throughout the media 377 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: of the time as well, so it seemed important to 378 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 3: kind of note it. 379 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you did. I think it was 380 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: a really important thing to shine some light on. And 381 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: like you said, it was like there was no really 382 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 1: rules around like respect when it comes to photo and 383 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: I think that does maybe bleed into the era of 384 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: just like hounding female celebrities, you know, like you get 385 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: into the Britney spears of it all, the Lindsay lowhand 386 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 1: of it all, the paparazzi is so relentless to get 387 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 1: a photo of them no matter what, Like what do 388 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: you think that era did to us when it comes 389 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: to how we see women, especially kind of women who 390 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: are going through some really deep pain, Like how we 391 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: disregarded Amy Winehouse so deeply, and how everyone saw her 392 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: downfall not as something to mourn but as something to 393 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: almost expect and as something to blame on her. Like 394 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: how do you think we're still kind of carrying that 395 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,440 Speaker 1: with us? And what are your kind of extended thoughts 396 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: on that. 397 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: I think one thing you identified that's really important is 398 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: there's this pattern constantly with imaging technology, and I see 399 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 3: it now with AI as well. When some form of 400 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 3: new technology is developed or as launched, people are so 401 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 3: enthusiastic to kind of jump on it and adopt it 402 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 3: and utilize it, there's no time to kind of develop 403 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: ethical frameworks for how to use it or like I said, boundaries, 404 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 3: And so you know, you see it in the rise 405 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 3: of photography. You see it in the rise of the Internet, certainly, 406 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 3: and certainly with regard to sexual imagery, but also just. 407 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: In the tone of the Internet. 408 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 3: And like with suddenly the access that we were being 409 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 3: given almost twenty four to seven towards famous people's lives, 410 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,239 Speaker 3: it was unprecedented and it was wholly new. I think 411 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 3: that suddenly you had this industrial paparazzi complex where they 412 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 3: weren't trained photographers. They were just like often like very 413 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: young men on the back of scooters with cameras that 414 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 3: they'd rented for and best buy, and they were stalking 415 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 3: famous women because there were huge amounts of money to 416 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 3: be made. And I think what that did to all 417 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 3: of us was because we hadn't had this kind of 418 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 3: access before, because we hadn't had this kind of relationship 419 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: or this like real intimate access, I guess to celebrity. 420 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,479 Speaker 3: It made it seem almost like they weren't real people, 421 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: like they were characters in a new form of entertainment 422 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 3: that we were all watching. 423 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 2: In real time. 424 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe that helps me explain why the 425 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: tone of the Internet was so cruel, certainly like the 426 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 3: early days of blogging, but also just the treatment of celebrities. 427 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 3: And I came to understand too that some of it 428 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: was about how the nature of celebrity had changed because 429 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 3: of the Internet, because of reality television. Like before the 430 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 3: two thousands, if you were famous, it was usually because 431 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 3: you were good at something, or you were famous for 432 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 3: a reason that you were an actor or a singer 433 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 3: or a sports star, or there was a talent that 434 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 3: you had that had made you famous. Where suddenly, with 435 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 3: the Internet and with reality TV, all you needed to 436 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 3: be famous was to be visible. And so there were 437 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: people like Paris Hilton who were really good at playing 438 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: up that visibility. Kim Kardashleian obviously in her whole family. 439 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 3: They're really really good at trading visibility for fame and 440 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 3: at knowing what people want to see, and it sort 441 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 3: of seeming relatively untouched by the criticism that they get, 442 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 3: and like that's the bargain of their fame. But I 443 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 3: think what that did for a lot of us, it's 444 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,719 Speaker 3: this real nature of overexposure, right where you see people 445 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 3: so much that you get you get sick of them, 446 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: sort of judgmental in a way that you maybe wouldn't 447 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 3: be if they had another job that they were doing. 448 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 3: Like if they're literally just famous because people take pictures 449 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 3: of them, it's a lot easier to be kind of 450 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 3: scathing in your critique, and that judgment I think is 451 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 3: certainly encouraged, like reality TV, where we're really really encouraged 452 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 3: to sort of hate often on the people that were watching. 453 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the untangling of reality TV in this 454 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: book was so interesting. The Internet was a product of 455 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: reality TV. I thought TikTok was a product of reality TV, 456 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: but your book really shows that, like it's more the reverse, 457 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: Like cam Girls kind of were the first introduction into 458 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: reality TV. 459 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 4: In general, reality TV? 460 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: Would you say good or bad when it comes to representation? 461 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 3: I mean it's so interesting to me as a genre 462 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 3: because I think when it started it had this really 463 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 3: anthropological bent, right, Like it was really curious about human 464 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: nature and if you go back to a lot of 465 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 3: the shows that seem to have inspired reality TV in 466 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: the fifties, like Canda Camera, these shows that were sort 467 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: of staging experiments almost with human people who didn't know 468 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 3: they were being filmed. There was this really sociological need 469 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: to kind of understand what humans were capable of. And 470 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: I remember watching Big Brother in the UK when it 471 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: first launched here, and I don't know, it was fascinating. 472 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 3: It was like watching humans and Human Zoo and all 473 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 3: these manufactured situations to prefer stress and conflict and stuff, 474 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: but at the same time seeing people form relationships and 475 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 3: be pragmatic about working together to like to do the 476 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 3: challenges that they were given and things like that. It 477 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 3: was really really incredible television in a way that I 478 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 3: had never experienced before. But then very quickly again like 479 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: money comes in, there was this wave of producers. It's 480 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 3: always it's the story of the book. Yeah, who realized 481 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 3: how much cheaper reality TV was than making, say, a 482 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: dramatized show with a bunch of factors and makeup and wardrobe. 483 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 2: And camera crew and stuff like. 484 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 3: Instead, you could just film real people who were not 485 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 3: paid union rates, and you quickly had into kind of 486 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 3: the Wild West era. I think there was one special 487 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 3: that I mentioned, the book called Who Wants to Marry 488 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 3: a Multimillionaire that took fifty women and made them compete 489 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 3: for the and in marriage of a supposedly wealthy man 490 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 3: who none of them had ever met. Whereas really like 491 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 3: women being sold off like catty but in a pageant, 492 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 3: you know, so that's like a swim i aportion. And 493 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 3: I think one of the most appealing formats that just 494 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 3: got repeated over and over and over again was this 495 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: idea of pitting women, especially in competition against each other, 496 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: like you see it in The Bachelor, you see it 497 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: in Flavor of Love, and I think you see it 498 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 3: to some extent now and shows like Selling Sunset, this 499 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 3: idea that women all have to compete for limited resources. 500 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,400 Speaker 3: And again it emphasizes like individualism, and it de emphasizes 501 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 3: working together and sisterhood and the sense of like what 502 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 3: women are capable of when we're united. 503 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 2: But yeah, is it good or bad? I don't know. 504 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: It's I don't want to come for anyone's favorites. 505 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: It kind of makes sense that the Girl Boss era 506 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: came after a reality TV Can you talk about what 507 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: the girl Boss era got wrong and was it always 508 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: going to fail like from the beginning, or is it 509 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: another story of capitalism chains everything? 510 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the girl Boss era. 511 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 3: It's sort of hard to define, but it traces back, 512 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 3: I would say to the book by Sophia Marisso who 513 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 3: was the founder of a fashion brand called Nasty Girl, 514 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: and she wrote a memoir in twenty fourteen called Hashtag 515 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 3: girl Boss, which was all about how she had gone 516 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 3: from like a dumpster diving freagin to this founder of 517 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: this business and how it was like a one hundred 518 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 3: million dollar company. And it was very much this idea 519 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 3: of like rags to riches that I think was sort 520 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 3: of intoxicating in culture at the time. 521 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 2: The idea that anyone could make. 522 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 3: It as a founder, as a well you needed was 523 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: an idea in the right work ethic. And a lot 524 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: of this I think you're right was like completely enabled 525 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 3: buy reality television because it was all built on women 526 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 3: as kind of like mottos, almost like. 527 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: Women as icons. 528 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 3: And the Gubbles era was all about women as being 529 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:08,959 Speaker 3: very attached to the brands that they were selling and 530 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 3: being very visible and being in all the imagery and 531 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 3: like wearing the makeup and wearing the clothes and being 532 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 3: on the cover of Forbes. 533 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 1: And also be like being chosen in so many ways, 534 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,400 Speaker 1: being chosen at work, being chosen in love, being chosen, 535 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: like being the one who is above everyone. 536 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: Else and looking the right way. 537 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 3: Of course, like absolutely all of these women were sort 538 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 3: of conventionally attractive in all the right ways, and often 539 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: they were white, and they were good marketing icons for 540 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 3: their brands. And it collided with this moment as well 541 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 3: in which Cheryl Sandberg, the Facebook executive, published lean In, 542 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 3: which was supposed to be a kind of manifesto for 543 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 3: female leadership and female empowerment in the workplace, which also 544 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 3: was just again all about individual power. And it was 545 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 3: this idea of like trickle down feminist that if enough 546 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 3: women could achieve power for themselves, they could then change 547 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 3: things for the women who had come after them. But 548 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 3: it wasn't about like organizing with other women to say, 549 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 3: for parentally or for policies that might actually create meaningful 550 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,879 Speaker 3: change for women in American life. It was all about like, 551 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 3: get that money, get that position, get that power, and 552 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 3: then after that you can, you know, try and do 553 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 3: the best you can to make things better. 554 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 2: For other women. 555 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: So in some ways it was just it was very 556 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 3: much this individualist, like tope, bad kind of feminism that 557 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: was not actually about working to make the world better 558 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 3: for women real large. 559 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: It's really such a patriarchal take on feminism, Like it's 560 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: really such an old school, male dominated like if you 561 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: can act like them, you can be like them, and 562 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 1: you can get money like them. And I remember I 563 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: was in college when Lenin came out, and I am 564 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: such it was such a product of the future is female. 565 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: Like I absolutely was like sixty when Parks and rec 566 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: was on and Hillary Clinton was running and Cheryl Sandberg 567 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,239 Speaker 1: was coming out, and I was like, this is going 568 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: to change everything, you know. So it really kind of 569 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 1: like got me too, and it sells, you know what 570 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: I mean. And it does like separate ourselves from each other. 571 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: And I think when we're separated from each other a 572 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: sort of again, capitalism kind of wins. The systems that 573 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: are in place really win. I was so surprised by 574 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: sort of a piece of the ending of the book 575 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: when you brought up romance as sort of one of 576 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: the ways to fight against what feminism has turned into. 577 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: You quoted Alice Evans and she said one of the 578 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: biggest drivers of gender equality is romantic love, specifically loving 579 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: men who want women to thrive. I know this is 580 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: a bit off topic from lean in, but maybe it's 581 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: connected in a way of like that era of feminism 582 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: does not quite talk about love in the sort of 583 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: bell hooks Eric from type of way when it is 584 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: collective and with respect and with understanding and everything. So like, 585 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: do you think in general as a culture we kind 586 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: of love good men? 587 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: Of course? 588 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: I mean, my god, I've been thinking about this non 589 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 3: stop recently, because when you think about what do women want, 590 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: like this perennial question right when you look at the 591 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 3: men who are the kind of the internet's boyfriend and 592 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 3: anyone given moment, men like I don't know, years ago, 593 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 3: it was ben At, it come about now it's Pedro Pascal. 594 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 3: We've had a like poor Moscows and all these men 595 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: in the interim who we sort of attached to. And 596 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: the one common quality I would say that they all 597 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 3: have is they all seem like they like and respect 598 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 3: women totally, which is such a small thing. You see 599 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 3: this culture and line of like men wanting to get 600 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: jacked and ripped and like to look a certain way. 601 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 3: They're not doing it because it's what women want. They 602 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 3: don't care about what we want. They're doing it to 603 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,479 Speaker 3: compete with each other. Right, What women want, I think 604 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 3: is to feel valued, to feel respected, to feel affirmed, 605 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 3: and to feel like the people who were in relationships 606 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: with cus is fully human. And it's this quality I 607 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: think that is making romantic fiction right now so popular, 608 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: and like you've seen this real rise in the number 609 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 3: of people reading romance novels. Like the thing about romantic fiction, 610 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 3: I would say, more than any other genre of culture, 611 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 3: is that it's always put women first. It's always put 612 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: women in the center, it's always focused on the female gaze. 613 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: It's always thought about. 614 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 3: What women want and what women deserve, and it's been 615 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 3: kind of unapologetic about that throughout its history. 616 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I. 617 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 3: Mean it makes total sense to me, within this moment, 618 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: when there's so much misogyny online and so much misogyny 619 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 3: in our politics, that women especially are being drawn to 620 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 3: this genre of entertainment that is just very firming in 621 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 3: so many ways. Alice Evans, I think it was a 622 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 3: substec she wrote, but it was completely fascinating to me. 623 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 3: Like the idea that you can tell how a society 624 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 3: thinks about women by the significance that it places on 625 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: mantic love. Was really fascinating to me because it proves 626 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: something that I think is like the thesis of the book, 627 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 3: which is like culture is never just about entertainment. It 628 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 3: teaches us what to believe. It teaches us like how 629 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 3: to think about ourselves and how to think about other people, 630 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 3: and how to sort of settle own ambitions and our 631 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 3: own ideas for life. 632 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: Speaking about sort of modern culture cultural icons right now, 633 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you think we're in a new era, 634 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: like we have so many feminist artists Chapel Roone, Sabrina Carpenter, Donci, Like, 635 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: there's so many like beautiful artists right now who are 636 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: strong in their boundaries and who don't really back down 637 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: in the way they express their sexuality. Specifically, I'm wondering 638 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: about Sabrina Carpenter. She's been such a debated figure right now. 639 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: What is your take on Sabrina and her the way 640 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: she's playing into sexuality. 641 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I've been talking about this book for the 642 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 3: most two months now, and I would say every time 643 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 3: I've done a book event or a panel or something 644 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 3: like someone has. 645 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 4: Brought her up. Really she is. 646 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, she's so fascinating and I think she's perplexing to 647 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 3: a lot of people because she presents this version of 648 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: sexuality that in some ways feels very old fashioned, because 649 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 3: it's like fembot blonde, like a lot of pain, a lot, right, 650 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 3: but it seems to be so heavily ironized, and she 651 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: knows exactly what she's doing and she's not worried about 652 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 3: what people think of her. 653 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: I think is the most interesting thing. 654 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 3: Like she's doing exactly what she wants, and she's making 655 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 3: the music that she wants, and she's getting the attention 656 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 3: that she wants, and she's doing what she feels necessary 657 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 3: for her as a form of creative expression, and like 658 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 3: God bless her for it. But at the same time, 659 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: the understanding that none of us exist in a vacuum, 660 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 3: and that there's always the context of her making this 661 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 3: kind of imagery now and in a world where woman 662 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 3: ah like losing rights rapidly and being stereotyped as you know, 663 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 3: sexual objects again in a way that we haven't since 664 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 3: the two thousands. I mean, the contextualization of it was 665 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 3: really interesting to me. I find Chapelone so thrilling because 666 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 3: I think she doesn't think it all about the male 667 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: gaze of menon or how like men are just not 668 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 3: part of her esthetic expiration or creative journey. Like everything 669 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 3: that she's doing, she's sort of Madonna like in that way. 670 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 2: It's all about her. 671 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: It's all about her desires and her sense of fun 672 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 3: and playfulness, and her music is so great. So there's 673 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: so much to be really thrilled with, I think in 674 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: terms of the culture that's being made right now, and 675 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 3: to celebrate and to sort of see how far women 676 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 3: have come and to hope that that leads us somewhere 677 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,120 Speaker 3: near in the future. 678 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,919 Speaker 1: Once again, thank you to Sophie for taking the time 679 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: to talk to me. We are certainly adding this book 680 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: to the Boys Sober syllabus. I think all of this 681 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: is information that will help us along the path of 682 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: healing from the wounds of our cultural past. And on 683 00:34:49,520 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: that note, let's talk next week. Boy Sover is a 684 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Podcasts I'm Your Host, Hope Ordered. Our 685 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: executive producers are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising 686 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: producer is Emily Meronoff. Engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing 687 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: and mastering. 688 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 4: By Aboo Zafar. 689 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 690 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober 691 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get 692 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.