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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to Steffan

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Speaker 1: ever told you a protection of iHeartRadio, And welcome to

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Speaker 1: another edition of our sub sub sub segment Fictional win

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Speaker 1: around the world. Because this is May Star Wars, stuff abounds,

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Speaker 1: and today we are talking about Rose Tycho. You can

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Speaker 1: see the episode that we did on Star Wars sequel trilogy.

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Speaker 1: I've also been thinking, Samantha, I feel like we should

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Speaker 1: have a Star Wars playlist.

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Speaker 2: Well probably at this point that in the last of us,

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Speaker 2: like you need two separate playlists, to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Because I think it would be interesting to hear how

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Speaker 1: I went from like pre pandemic. I don't know too

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Speaker 1: much about this Star Wars too.

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Speaker 2: Whoa who we are? Here we are?

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be interesting, that's fair. But we'll see

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Speaker 1: about that. We'll see about that. But we haven't talked

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Speaker 1: about this before, so let's jump into it. Rose Tycho

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Speaker 1: is played by Kelly Marie Tran and was first introduced

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Speaker 1: in mainstream Star Wars media in the twenty seventeen film

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Speaker 1: The Last Jedi. If you somehow have not heard our

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Speaker 1: past Star Wars episodes, this was and continues to be

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Speaker 1: a very controversial movie people still like fighting about it woo.

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Speaker 1: Though of note, a not insubstantial amount of things like

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Speaker 1: review bombing was carried out by Butts. Again, you can

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Speaker 1: see that past episode.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: That being said, and we'll get into all of this.

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Speaker 1: She was forced off social media due to the sexist

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Speaker 1: and racist hate she received for this role. The character

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Speaker 1: has nonetheless appeared in the Rise of Skywalker. More on

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Speaker 1: that too, Oh comics cartoons often voiced by Trent, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of rare that the actors from the movies

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Speaker 1: will do the voices in the cartoons, but.

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Speaker 2: She has but okay.

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Speaker 1: The last Edi starts with Rose's sister Page dying while

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Speaker 1: fighting for the resistance. Rose works in maintenance and engineering,

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Speaker 1: and through this Workshane counters Finn, which is John Boyega's character,

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Speaker 1: and is at first in awe of him since he's

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Speaker 1: viewed as a hero due to his actions in the

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Speaker 1: previous film, but she soon realizes he's planning on what

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Speaker 1: seems to be deserting, so she's not cool with that.

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Speaker 1: She stuns him and turns him in through a series

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Speaker 1: of events that largely involve Finn trying to contact Ray,

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Speaker 1: which is Daisy Ridley's character and Poe author Isaac's character.

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Speaker 1: Not trusting the Resistance leader, they make their way to

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Speaker 1: Canto Bite, which is basically like space Las Vegas, but

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Speaker 1: it's a whole planet because that's what Star Wars does,

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Speaker 1: and I do love that to make contact with the

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Speaker 1: master Codebreaker. I could, I could explain it more, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter here. So Rose at this point shares

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Speaker 1: some of her past with Finn of seeing this excess

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Speaker 1: and being underpaid and coerced people making that excess happen,

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Speaker 1: never being seen, and they free the what we shall

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Speaker 1: call space horses to make an escape. A distraction, this

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Speaker 1: is that section. People complain about that section a lot.

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Speaker 2: To me. That is like a video game side quest.

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Speaker 1: I get why people are mad, but like, that's so

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Speaker 1: many big action movies do that now where they have

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Speaker 1: It's like it feels like a video game. You have

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Speaker 1: to go to this place and accomplish this thing and whatever.

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Speaker 1: So the Codebreaker betrays them to the First Order, which

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Speaker 1: is the Empire uh and they are tortured. They are

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Speaker 1: able to fight their way out, but the Resistance ends

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Speaker 1: up in a really dire situation. Finn goes out to

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Speaker 1: face enemy forces and certain death, but Rose stops him,

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Speaker 1: saying that's how we're gonna win, not fighting what we hate,

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Speaker 1: saving what we love, and they kiss. Rose is injured

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Speaker 1: during this whole thing, and in a mirror of her

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Speaker 1: previous saving of Finn, Finn saves her somewhere in her healing,

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Speaker 1: they decide to remain friends. A lot of this all

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Speaker 1: happens in the comics, so I would not blame you

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Speaker 1: for big Like wait what? So once healed, Rose helps

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Speaker 1: out Leah setting up communications, and she helps Ray with

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Speaker 1: the right that Ray is trying to complete, and she

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Speaker 1: is promoted.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all of this.

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Speaker 1: After all of this, she starts studying the technical specs

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Speaker 1: of star destroyers and is present during the assault on Exagal,

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Speaker 1: which is like the cult planet I guess we'll say,

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Speaker 1: against the resurrected Emperor and Imperial Remnant forces. So here

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Speaker 1: quick backstory. Rose's family grew up in an impoverished mining colony.

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Speaker 1: Her and her sister were very close and they enjoyed

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Speaker 1: holodramas and racing. Eventually, the First Order, which is again

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Speaker 1: the Empire, took over their mining colony and forced the

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Speaker 1: constituents to mind materials for their weapons. Rose and her

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Speaker 1: sister Page fought against them and eventually went on to

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Speaker 1: join the Resistance officially. Soon after this, they learned that

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Speaker 1: the First Order had killed their people, Essentially, General Leah

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Speaker 1: Organa approaches them and they decide to stay and work

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Speaker 1: with her. Thanks in part to her sister's meddling, Rose

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Speaker 1: proves herself to be a really great mechanic. One of

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Speaker 1: her first experiments didn't work at first, but she kept

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Speaker 1: trying with encouragement from Leah, and when it did work,

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Speaker 1: she and her sister went out racing. Page disappeared, Rose

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Speaker 1: blamed herself and set out in search of her. She

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Speaker 1: was able to find her, in part with the help

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Speaker 1: of birds that she named squawks. Rose saved Page and

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Speaker 1: discovered the reason why their communications were jammed, which is

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Speaker 1: really really important. Eventually, Page got assigned as a gunner

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Speaker 1: while Rose worked as a mechanic, but they remained close

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Speaker 1: and they wore matching pendance. That's in the last shot out.

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Speaker 1: It's a pretty big plot point. Rose helped save star

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Speaker 1: pilot po Dammarin in part due to reading something that

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Speaker 1: her bully mocked her for. Strange. Okay, so, as we've

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Speaker 1: discussed before, there is a lot of controversy and legacy

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Speaker 1: to this character. This is a character like people love

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Speaker 1: or hate, which I find fascinating. According to The Last

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Speaker 1: Jedi director Ryan Johnson, he created Rose to be someone

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Speaker 1: who would challenge Finn because he believes that Poe, who

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Speaker 1: was originally slated to go on the whole trip to

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Speaker 1: Canto Bite, would be boring. When it came to dialogue

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Speaker 1: from Tran, Rose is not an amazing pilot or a Jedi.

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Speaker 1: She's strong in a different way, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: kind of how she holds her own. She has this

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Speaker 1: fangirl experience. Then they started realizing the two of them

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Speaker 1: have abilities that nobody else has that they could really

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Speaker 1: help the Resistance if they were to work together. Interestingly,

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Speaker 1: some have complained she was too boring, but this is

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Speaker 1: what I liked about her. I liked that she was

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Speaker 1: normal quotes, she wasn't a Jedi, and she did these

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Speaker 1: amazing things, and she picked up and she still kept going.

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Speaker 1: And she also speaks to the hope that is so

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Speaker 1: key to the series. Some of you have written in

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Speaker 1: about this, and I think it was a really salient

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Speaker 1: criticism that in a lot of movies like this, the

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Speaker 1: martyrrism is really lauded. But when she has that line

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Speaker 1: with Finn after her sister died in this like sacrificial

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Speaker 1: act at the front, she's saying like, no, we got

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Speaker 1: to survive, That's what this is for. And I thought

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Speaker 1: that was really powerful and I liked that a lot. However,

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Speaker 1: there was a huge backlash against her character that again

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Speaker 1: pushed this actress off social media and resulted in her

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Speaker 1: character's screen time being greatly reduced to one minute in

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Speaker 1: the following film, The Rise of Skywalker. Now, the writers

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Speaker 1: have said this has to do with the cost of

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Speaker 1: putting cgi Carrie Fisher slash Leo or gone in the

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Speaker 1: film because she had died. The actor had and essentially

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Speaker 1: they had a lot of scenes together, but they couldn't

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Speaker 1: achieve the quality of photorealism that they wanted with Lea.

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Speaker 1: But at this point, Carrie Fisher had died several years earlier,

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Speaker 1: and they later clarified that these were rumors and weren't true.

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Speaker 1: So hmmm, and I really hate this explanation because reportedly

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Speaker 1: Carrie Fisher was super into working with Tran, even saying

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Speaker 1: that they needed space jewelry, which was part of the

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Speaker 1: inspiration between the pentons that rose in page where, So

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Speaker 1: I don't like her getting used in this way. Another

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Speaker 1: quote from Tran. It wasn't their words, it's that I

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Speaker 1: started to believe them. Their words seemed to confirm what's

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Speaker 1: growing up as a woman and a person of color

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Speaker 1: already taught me that I belonged in margins and spaces,

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Speaker 1: valid only as a minor character in their lives and stories.

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Speaker 1: Their words reinforced a narrative I had heard my whole

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Speaker 1: life that I was other, that I didn't belong, that

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Speaker 1: it wasn't good enough simply because I wasn't like them,

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Speaker 1: And that feeling, I realized now was and is shame,

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Speaker 1: A shame for the things that made me different, a

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Speaker 1: shame for the culture from which I come from. And

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Speaker 1: to me, the most disappointing thing was that I felt

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Speaker 1: it at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Also, we did talk about this in our discussion of

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Speaker 1: the Seagull trilogy. But to be clear, the creators, like

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Speaker 1: jj Abrams, kept saying how much they loved her, but

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Speaker 1: really did not do anything to prevent the harassment she

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Speaker 1: was getting online. Right, and wrote, I mean you still

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Speaker 1: wrote the story.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Here's a quote from nerdist. But if inspiring her to

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Speaker 1: abandon Twitter felt like a petty victory for the franchise's

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Speaker 1: least deserving fans, the choice to minimize her role in

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Speaker 1: the Rise of Skywalker gave them a much bigger one.

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Speaker 1: They won't see The Rise of Skywalker as bad storytelling,

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Speaker 1: but as vindication they were right about the character and

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Speaker 1: the actress. In spite of insisting he was grateful for

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Speaker 1: the character, even as Kelly Marie had been extraordinarily generous

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Speaker 1: to him, jj Abrams rewarded the hostile and deeply insensitive

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Speaker 1: individuals who tortured her. Yep, and I thought this was interesting.

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Speaker 1: George Lucas recently ish said about his selling of lucasfilm

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Speaker 1: to Disney, Why would I make any more Star Wars

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Speaker 1: movies when everybody yells at you all the time and

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Speaker 1: says what a terrible person you are? This this I

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Speaker 1: mean if George Lucas, the white guy creator, is like, no, thanks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm done with y'all. Y'all are the worst. I

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Speaker 2: don't work this anymore. This is a current meme in

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Speaker 2: Star Wars.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen it, but it's like,

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Speaker 1: we love George Lucas until we hated him.

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Speaker 2: We love Dave Filoni until we hated him. Like it's

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Speaker 2: all right.

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Speaker 1: It was celebrated for about two seconds, and then when

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Speaker 1: half of us disagreed, we all hate him.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly.

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Speaker 1: When this character was introduced, she was seen as symbolic

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Speaker 1: of all the quote woke things wrong.

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Speaker 2: With Star Wars.

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Speaker 1: And I've spoken before about the difference between legitimate critique

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Speaker 1: between weak writing and just being a racist, sexist whole.

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Speaker 1: The storyline this character was given in the last Jedi

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Speaker 1: was uneven. It had its strengths and it had like

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Speaker 1: really interesting ones and its weaknesses. But that's not unique

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Speaker 1: to Rose. But she's the one right that gets this reaction,

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Speaker 1: her and Ray. When I was researching this, many of

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Speaker 1: the top results were people asking, I don't get why

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Speaker 1: people hate her, and the number one response was her

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Speaker 1: plotline uselessness. So again, I think that a section people

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Speaker 1: are complaining about which does as I said, full very

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Speaker 1: video gamy to me, is not something we should blame

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Speaker 1: on the character or the actor. I've been thinking about

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Speaker 1: this a lot lately about how male writers, when they

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Speaker 1: write women, we blame the women who are playing that character.

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Speaker 1: Right as opposed to the people who write them. But

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Speaker 1: that's not generally the case for male actors in my experience,

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Speaker 1: Like we weren't coming for like po damn.

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Speaker 2: Rin right, they were all like why would they do that?

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Speaker 2: Then the exactly.

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Speaker 1: They didn't do him justice. They didn't do him justice.

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Speaker 1: But for women it's like, how are you actress? Who

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Speaker 1: plays her right? And yes, you can see our episode

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Speaker 1: on Mary Sues and there's this whole section. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the final it's the final chapter of every book.

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Speaker 1: It's about Mary Sues for more on this and Ray

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Speaker 1: and all the heat.

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Speaker 2: That character got.

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Speaker 1: Oh, this is also an issue of all of the

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Speaker 1: other material that aren't the movies. I got a disagreement

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Speaker 1: with a friend about this recently, because most people only

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Speaker 1: see the movies and maybe some of the shows, and

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Speaker 1: I totally get that. So there's a lot of other

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Speaker 1: stuff explaining huge plot points that are in aren't in

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Speaker 1: the movies, which.

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Speaker 2: It just I have been to me.

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Speaker 1: Like, wait, in what comic did it happen that this

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Speaker 1: huge movie plot point you explained it a comic somewhere.

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Speaker 2: That I haven't read.

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Speaker 1: I love the comic, So I think there's also just

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Speaker 1: a mess of that happening on the very small silver

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Speaker 1: lining side. Fans at conferences have chanted her name when

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Speaker 1: Tran appears on a panel. She does still do a

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Speaker 1: lot of the voice acting for the character, and there

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Speaker 1: are despite all this negativity, there are plenty of people

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Speaker 1: a large contingent I would say, actually love her. It's

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Speaker 1: just sad that again these terrible fans who aren't really

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Speaker 1: fans in my get such a like.

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Speaker 2: So much space and make things worse for all of us.

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Speaker 2: The yep wow.

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Speaker 1: I would love to know if people have thoughts about this.

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Speaker 1: If you have read the comic of which I speak,

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Speaker 1: I please point me in.

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Speaker 2: The right place direction.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to email us, you can. Our

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Speaker 1: email is Stephandia mom Stuff at iheartdia dot com. You

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Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at Stephane Never Told You. We're

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Speaker 1: also on YouTube. We have a tea public store, and

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Speaker 1: yes we do have a book. Thanks as always too,

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Speaker 1: our super producer, Christina, our executive producer, my In, our

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Speaker 1: contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening.

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Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You is production of iHeart Radio

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Speaker 1: for a podcasts or my heart Radio. You can check

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Speaker 1: listened to your favorite shows,