Speaker 1: I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton and feel bad.
Speaker 1: I compare myself to those who have what I seem
Speaker 1: to think I could get. But the fact that I
Speaker 1: don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton or whoever it is
Speaker 1: and feel inferior shows me that it's not about comparing,
Speaker 1: It's about jealousy. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think, ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life forth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Our guest today is Anna David, American author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and television personality specializing in addiction and recovery as well
Speaker 1: as Relationships. She's the author of Party Girl, Bought, and
Speaker 1: Falling for Me. Anna was the sex and relationship expert
Speaker 1: on G four's Attack of the Show and has been
Speaker 1: featured on countless other TV programs. In two thousand thirteen,
Speaker 1: Anna launched after Party Chat, a website focused on addiction
Speaker 1: and recovery. Let's hear the interview, recorded on location in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, Ianna, Welcome to the show. So fun to
Speaker 1: be here, big fan of the podcast. Well, thank you.
Speaker 1: It's exciting to be here in person in your office
Speaker 1: in the special screening room in Los Angeles. So this
Speaker 1: is fun. Isn't this cool? Yeah? I really like we
Speaker 1: should give a shout out to we work this office
Speaker 1: space because it's amazing. Is a really really cool space. Um. So,
Speaker 1: as you know, our podcast is based on the parable
Speaker 1: of Two Wolves, where there's an old grandfather telling a
Speaker 1: story and he says, in life, there's two wolves inside
Speaker 1: of this. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and love and joy, and the other's a
Speaker 1: bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and fear.
Speaker 1: And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather,
Speaker 1: which one wins, and the grandfather says the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by just asking how
Speaker 1: that parable applies to you in the work you do
Speaker 1: and in your life. Oh, my god, does that parable?
Speaker 1: You know? I think before I got sober, I had
Speaker 1: no idea there were two wolves at all. Um. I
Speaker 1: simply only fed the bad wolf, and and things were
Speaker 1: relatively good. I would say, you know, ignorance is bliss
Speaker 1: in youth, and so it wasn't so debilitating to feed
Speaker 1: the bad wolf. And then I got sober, and I
Speaker 1: was introduced to this idea that we actually have some
Speaker 1: control over our own happiness. And that was a revelation
Speaker 1: to me that that our attitude was really everything that
Speaker 1: you know, my problem wasn't my circumstances, but my reactions
Speaker 1: to my circumstances, and so and so, UM, I think
Speaker 1: I sort of almost got high off of that idea
Speaker 1: that I could, of course, we didn't use the language
Speaker 1: feed the good wolf, but I could, UM, I could
Speaker 1: change my perception of things, and that um, and that
Speaker 1: it was my self obsession that was making me so unhappy.
Speaker 1: And and so I got pretty good at feeding the
Speaker 1: good wolf. And then when you're sober a while, I
Speaker 1: think it gets harder. Uh. And and you know, the
Speaker 1: big thing I struggle with today, as we sort of
Speaker 1: have already discussed, is when I have sadness to process,
Speaker 1: am I feeding the bad wolf? Or am I dealing
Speaker 1: with what I need to deal with? That is definitely
Speaker 1: a challenging one that that line between genuine grief and
Speaker 1: self pity blurs. And I liked what you said earlier
Speaker 1: this morning, because we tend to people in recovery, but
Speaker 1: people in general, we have a we still have a
Speaker 1: I think, and in recovering an addictive relationship to pain.
Speaker 1: I feel pain, so I must end it. I must
Speaker 1: not be doing something right. I must go work with
Speaker 1: the newcomer. I must walk some steps. I must. It's
Speaker 1: pain and I don't want it, so I'm gonna make
Speaker 1: it go away. And I think for me, a lot
Speaker 1: of it has been becoming more comfortable with that pain
Speaker 1: and saying Okay, I can live with this. I don't
Speaker 1: need to make it go away. Yeah. I mean to me,
Speaker 1: alcoholism is I can to see on the way I feel.
Speaker 1: I'll do anything I can to change it. And that's
Speaker 1: how like the fun gets come in and people decide
Speaker 1: to drink. And the thing is I really relate to
Speaker 1: I can't stand this pain. I'll do anything I can
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. Um. I do feel that
Speaker 1: that's not only something that I am that's not gotten better.
Speaker 1: The difference is I know it's temporary. I always know
Speaker 1: it's ephemeral, But that doesn't mean I think I have
Speaker 1: a very low tolerance for pain. Um. And I was
Speaker 1: recently talking to somebody about this. Um. You know, I
Speaker 1: know most people I know, they get depressed and they
Speaker 1: wallow in it and they binge, watch TV and they
Speaker 1: lie in bed and they eat, and I do not.
Speaker 1: The second pain happens, all I do is get active
Speaker 1: and you know, do everything I can to escape it
Speaker 1: because I truly feel that it's more painful. Like if
Speaker 1: you guys were talking about the same pain I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't do that, right, you would. You would get
Speaker 1: the hell out because it's that bad. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: pain and depression effect. It's it's weird the way it
Speaker 1: affects different people. Eftly, there's so many people that it is.
Speaker 1: It's just the effort to do anything becomes overwhelming and
Speaker 1: they pretty much end up in bed We had Andrew
Speaker 1: Solomon on a couple of weeks ago, and he describes
Speaker 1: in his book The Noon Day Demon that he just
Speaker 1: really does a good job at describing how heavy everything gets.
Speaker 1: But I don't understand how people would would be able
Speaker 1: to stand it. Yeah, I agree, I agree with you
Speaker 1: that way. Do you have to get out of it?
Speaker 1: I try really am hard. I mean I do my
Speaker 1: depression though when it comes, like when it's not not
Speaker 1: um episodic, like it's not because this thing happened, it's
Speaker 1: just it's sort of feels like it recurs. That is
Speaker 1: my I'm very mentally dull. I'm very but I've realized that.
Speaker 1: You know, I say, a depression hates and moving targets, right,
Speaker 1: get out and do some thing, because that's the best
Speaker 1: medicine for me for sure. Yeah yeah, um yeah, this
Speaker 1: this thing I'm going through, it's just loss. It's not
Speaker 1: um and losses is not a bad kind of pain
Speaker 1: because it has an endpoint, right, and it's and it's
Speaker 1: it's it's about something real. Yeah yeah, And it's it's
Speaker 1: so different because I used to get depressed, and I
Speaker 1: would be so scared of that depression that I would
Speaker 1: not want to deal with, Oh I'm lonely. Oh I
Speaker 1: feel sad. So I would make up a huge story
Speaker 1: in my head about, oh, I'm going to be alone forever. Oh,
Speaker 1: you know, because my brain would think that that was
Speaker 1: a more effective way of dealing with my loss or
Speaker 1: whatever it was than just dealing with it. And so
Speaker 1: now the big changes I deal with it. I touched
Speaker 1: the pain. I go, oh, I'm sad about this, but
Speaker 1: it's new for me. Like, that's not something I got
Speaker 1: right away when I got sober, right I. I think
Speaker 1: that's a that's a maturing process through recovery or personal
Speaker 1: development or call it what you will. That being willing
Speaker 1: to it is the opposite of I'm going to change
Speaker 1: every feeling I have, and that, like we said to
Speaker 1: start it off, that point, that line of where that
Speaker 1: is is a really tricky one, which I think is
Speaker 1: why the serenity prayer resonates so strongly. It is the
Speaker 1: most seminal sort of thing I've ever heard, that oh,
Speaker 1: some things I can change and I should and other
Speaker 1: things I can't and I shouldn't. And how on earth
Speaker 1: do I know? It is the tricky part? Well, and
Speaker 1: not to mention, you know, sometimes depression is awareness of
Speaker 1: changes we need to make in our lives, and it's
Speaker 1: process that it's morning. Oh, I've wasted all of this
Speaker 1: time not dealing with this, And that's very real, and
Speaker 1: that's very necessary because otherwise we just exist, you know,
Speaker 1: without making radical changes to our lives. And sometimes we
Speaker 1: need to. I agree, we do need that, absolutely need
Speaker 1: that pain or and that's what I always I do
Speaker 1: wrestle with. And I think on the show we end
Speaker 1: up getting into some of these themes that have come
Speaker 1: up over and over again because I think they fascinate me.
Speaker 1: Are that one of them being sort of the surrendery
Speaker 1: prayer we just talked about, and when in life do
Speaker 1: you when in life do you go, this is the
Speaker 1: situation it is, and I'm going to accept it, And
Speaker 1: when in life do I need to try and change it?
Speaker 1: And that's how I'm just fascinated by how hard that
Speaker 1: is to sort out. And one of the things that
Speaker 1: in the Andrew Solomon interview that in his book that
Speaker 1: he said that just hit me so clearly was that
Speaker 1: people who know they cannot change their circumstances there's no
Speaker 1: way it could be different, cope with them far better
Speaker 1: and because it's so much of I think this ties
Speaker 1: into another thing. I think a lot about it. I I
Speaker 1: think so much of what we go through is this
Speaker 1: the In Buddhism they call it the second arrow. So
Speaker 1: the first arrow is we got shot, and we've got
Speaker 1: some pain, you've got some lost right. The second arrow
Speaker 1: is all the stories we tell ourselves about what that means.
Speaker 1: I shouldn't feel this way if I was really sober,
Speaker 1: as long as I would, I wouldn't be upset about this.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. My life shouldn't be like this. My and
Speaker 1: that layer we put on top of everything is at
Speaker 1: least for me, what what the idea of suffering is
Speaker 1: versus pain? Right exactly exactly, and it's and it's it's yeah,
Speaker 1: because a little self pity does come into pain, you know,
Speaker 1: because uh, you know, ego, Because my losses aren't death.
Speaker 1: It's something that I feel I played a big part
Speaker 1: in and so and so did I, you know, And
Speaker 1: it's like, oh I caused this um or maybe I didn't,
Speaker 1: you know, but I do think, um, we're you know,
Speaker 1: so many recovery lessons are about look at your part
Speaker 1: and don't blame the other. And so my natural instinct
Speaker 1: is to think that I did it. Yep, I I
Speaker 1: have that too, to an extreme. I think the look
Speaker 1: at my part in it totally discount the other person's part.
Speaker 1: I think the other thing that has been that the
Speaker 1: extreme is and recover. They talk so much about. I
Speaker 1: don't remember what pages this page about acceptance is the
Speaker 1: answer to everything and for for what was the former
Speaker 1: page for for? And I don't believe that's true. I mean,
Speaker 1: I actually don't believe that that is the truth, because
Speaker 1: that means it's I mean, you can get very philosophical
Speaker 1: about and say, well, you have to accept it and
Speaker 1: then you have to change it. But I'm altogether too
Speaker 1: willing sometimes in life to be like that. Screw it.
Speaker 1: I think that's good. I envy that. I don't think
Speaker 1: it is, though I don't think it always is. I
Speaker 1: don't think. I mean it's the old you know, hammer
Speaker 1: is not the right tool for every job, or laying
Speaker 1: down like some of it is. Like I've got a kid,
Speaker 1: there are times I need to stand up and advocate
Speaker 1: on his behalf when it feels like it be easier
Speaker 1: to go I don't care, and so and I've had
Speaker 1: that's something that took me a long time going through
Speaker 1: recovery to even start to see that idea that that
Speaker 1: I was that I need. I needed to pay more
Speaker 1: attention to the courage part of the serrity prayer. And
Speaker 1: I think there are other people have to pay a
Speaker 1: lot more attention to the acceptance part. And that one
Speaker 1: strikes me that way. And I happened to love that
Speaker 1: story in in the literature. Um, and acceptance is the
Speaker 1: answer because I need that, and um, you know, you
Speaker 1: know he goes on to say, you know, if I'm upset,
Speaker 1: I'm finding I'm finding trouble with God's world, and until
Speaker 1: I can find peace with that, I can't be happy.
Speaker 1: And and so you know, I think it's interesting because
Speaker 1: it really speaks to me because that's what I really need.
Speaker 1: I don't it's not like, oh I'm so grageous, but
Speaker 1: I don't really struggle with the trying to change it.
Speaker 1: And that's and that's good. But a lot of a
Speaker 1: lot of your life is that is you were clearly
Speaker 1: one of your best attributes and probably one of your worst,
Speaker 1: right And that's the you know, you just I saw
Speaker 1: your gorgeous apartment and had you not had you just accepted.
Speaker 1: Oh I never heard from them right. You never would
Speaker 1: have got it right. So the flip side would be,
Speaker 1: had you spent, you know, four months pasting the woman
Speaker 1: until she called the police on you, that would be
Speaker 1: an example of it's always that middle. Yeah, it is,
Speaker 1: it is. I do it. I think it's interesting. I've
Speaker 1: just been dealing with this a little bit. I do
Speaker 1: it because I think I can change the circumstances by
Speaker 1: by uh trying, but trying harder. And it's interesting because
Speaker 1: these two losses I suffered were because I reached out
Speaker 1: thinking I could get the answer I wanted, and I got,
Speaker 1: in both cases the answer I did not want. And
Speaker 1: I'm god, damn it, what you know? I'd rather know
Speaker 1: than no. But I hear it's better to know, and
Speaker 1: I know that it is one of the things that
Speaker 1: and we we started the podcast talking about I read
Speaker 1: an article you wrote where you reviewed the the book
Speaker 1: ending Addiction for Good and there was a line in
Speaker 1: there that you quoted that I absolutely love and thought
Speaker 1: was perfect for the podcast because I think it it
Speaker 1: talks about addicts, but I think it applies to everybody
Speaker 1: and what we're talking about in the show. It says
Speaker 1: the addicts mind is negative. When it's unguarded, the idea
Speaker 1: has the power to change his thoughts whenever he'd like,
Speaker 1: how does that You want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: more about what spoke to you in that line, Well,
Speaker 1: it's exactly what we've been talking about. You know. I
Speaker 1: think that that's true once you processed something. UM. I
Speaker 1: do think the the addicts mind is is focused on
Speaker 1: the negative. And that's where it's like, when is it
Speaker 1: addiction and what is it depression? UM? What is it normal? Human?
Speaker 1: And when it is that human? Right? Yeah, because there's
Speaker 1: a lot of that I think. But you know, and
Speaker 1: I can only really speak for me. UM. I mean,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the friends I've had and and
Speaker 1: girls I've sponsored, UM where you know, we do go
Speaker 1: to the negative first and UM, and we do have
Speaker 1: the ability. You know. The big revelation for me, one
Speaker 1: of the big revelations when I got sober was that,
Speaker 1: you know, I thought you'd get depressed and you're there
Speaker 1: for like maybe it's a year, maybe it's three years.
Speaker 1: And I remember having the experience of of feeling depressed
Speaker 1: in the morning and then changing my thoughts and feeling
Speaker 1: fine by the afternoon. I had never known that was possible. Um,
Speaker 1: but but it's just interesting that we're doing us when
Speaker 1: I'm like sort of going going through it. I always
Speaker 1: want to do it when I'm not going through something,
Speaker 1: you know, whenever I'm asked to speaking of meaning, it's
Speaker 1: like always the time when I'm in the middle of
Speaker 1: a challenge. Well, that's the that's sort of the proof
Speaker 1: is in the putting of a spiritual way of life
Speaker 1: is how do you how do you handle it when
Speaker 1: not perfect? Because it's pretty easy. I was talking with
Speaker 1: a friend of mine who I'm out here with and
Speaker 1: he's going through a through a heartbreak and he's sort
Speaker 1: of like I was, just I felt like I was
Speaker 1: totally open to whatever would happen. Like it's easy to
Speaker 1: be open to whatever will happen when the things that
Speaker 1: are happening are good. The minute they turn really bad,
Speaker 1: that's the when it's really challenging to Yeah, and his
Speaker 1: big thing is a little bit like we talked about,
Speaker 1: adding that pain on top of pain. He feels like
Speaker 1: he shouldn't feel the way he does. Right, of course
Speaker 1: you should, right, heartbright everybody gets their heartbroken. It's a
Speaker 1: natural thing. It's unpleasant as hell. But you don't need
Speaker 1: to feel bad about yourself now. If you're having the
Speaker 1: same conversation and you're in the same place in six months,
Speaker 1: then maybe we need to evaluate, you know, should you
Speaker 1: be taken you know, should you be doing some things differently.
Speaker 1: The thing I liked about that line, the addics mind
Speaker 1: is negative when unguarded, is that I think it applies to.
Speaker 1: It's the reason I started the podcast because my mind,
Speaker 1: you know, unguarded or left to its own devices, just
Speaker 1: is not focused on the things that end up bringing happiness.
Speaker 1: And I think that goes addicts are an extreme example
Speaker 1: of it, but I see it everywhere in our culture
Speaker 1: because our culture isn't pointing us in that direction. And
Speaker 1: one of the best definitions I ever heard of spirituality
Speaker 1: was because it's a weird term, I don't even know
Speaker 1: what to do with it, but was that spirituality is
Speaker 1: simply the understanding that happiness doesn't come from outside things,
Speaker 1: and so that's not the message we get day to day.
Speaker 1: So the reason that I started the podcast and I
Speaker 1: like that line is that I just need to be reminded.
Speaker 1: I know how to do a lot of those things,
Speaker 1: how to how to move into a better space. I
Speaker 1: just don't do. It doesn't occur to me, right. I
Speaker 1: can go days weeks believing that happiness really is this
Speaker 1: thing out there right right, It's not. I mean, societally,
Speaker 1: that's you know, the American way is acquire, whether it's
Speaker 1: material stuff or a family or mostly career. And you know,
Speaker 1: I was really raised in a family that believed that,
Speaker 1: and that was in our blood and um, and so
Speaker 1: it is. It's a constant struggle for me to remember
Speaker 1: that it's not about that and um and that it's
Speaker 1: okay to want those things, right, but they can't feed us, right.
Speaker 1: They're perfectly natural things, and they there is pleasure in
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff. It's just it's just if
Speaker 1: that's what you think the basis. And we were talking
Speaker 1: with Lewis how Is the other the day he talked
Speaker 1: about his dream had been to be an All American,
Speaker 1: and he's an All American. He's sitting at the ceremony.
Speaker 1: He feels completely empty. Right. And I've had that experience
Speaker 1: of getting the thing that I thought I wanted. I
Speaker 1: worked so hard to get it, and I get it
Speaker 1: and it's kind of flat. And I realized that the
Speaker 1: time working towards it was the profound time. Well that's
Speaker 1: interesting because if if I think about this business that
Speaker 1: I built, it was horrible, building it horrible. I doubt
Speaker 1: the first six months were good, and then the second
Speaker 1: six months I just thought, this is a disaster. Everything
Speaker 1: I've worked for has been and then I and then
Speaker 1: when I sold it, it's been so satisfied on every level.
Speaker 1: But I also think that's because, um, this this is
Speaker 1: my dream, you know, to be able to do this
Speaker 1: work around around you know, sharing a positive message around
Speaker 1: recovery and I and it was so hard that that
Speaker 1: the satisfaction of somebody seeing merit in it and paying
Speaker 1: me to do it has been so sweet. I'm sure,
Speaker 1: and and it but it's not an endpoint, right It wasn't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't I got this thing you're I think, what
Speaker 1: if I hear you write A lot of what you're
Speaker 1: saying is the joy is in the fact that you
Speaker 1: get to keep doing it with more support. Yes, absolutely,
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Yeah, you could say I'm still in the
Speaker 1: building phase, so it is enjoyable. But I did want
Speaker 1: to say I'm ending Addiction for Good is an amazing book.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of Richard Tate and Connie Sharp,
Speaker 1: who wrote that I've not read it, but based on
Speaker 1: the review you gave, it strikes a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a believer that like, oh, all
Speaker 1: you need is the twelve steps and you're good. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm just not. I sometimes wonder. I sometimes wonder are
Speaker 1: we doing a disservice to people? Because there are mental,
Speaker 1: there are physical, There are a lot of different things
Speaker 1: I think that are really important in recovering you. Just
Speaker 1: you can't even really find large talk about that stuff
Speaker 1: in in a lot of medians. Right, that's not in
Speaker 1: the book. Done right. Yeah, I think that. I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's l a sobriety or or what, but
Speaker 1: but I do think in meetings you you hear that,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you even noticed that this
Speaker 1: morning that it was completely fine. You know, a friend
Speaker 1: of mine talked about she really needed outside stuff, she
Speaker 1: really needed outside help because it's not enough. I think
Speaker 1: it can find enough. The fact that she has to
Speaker 1: qualify that and speak of it as if it's something
Speaker 1: special shows that there's a stigma against it, at least
Speaker 1: somewhere still in the culture. Yes, So I guess so
Speaker 1: I don't feel that stigma in L a. M. I
Speaker 1: think I did when I lived in New York. But
Speaker 1: but but I think that that it's completely it's it's
Speaker 1: very accepted that I think the twelve steps can be enough. Um,
Speaker 1: if you don't have any trauma, Yeah, but I most
Speaker 1: alcoholics I now have trauma. Ye, there does seem to
Speaker 1: be be a lot of that. Speaking of trauma, you
Speaker 1: you mentioned your childhood a little bit, and there was
Speaker 1: something you talked about in one of your books that
Speaker 1: I wanted to spend a couple of minutes talking about,
Speaker 1: and you said, Um, you sometimes think it's your duty
Speaker 1: to save or take care of people if they're the
Speaker 1: slightest bit uncomfortable or sad, and that leaves you believing
Speaker 1: that relationships are oppressive. Yeah. I mean I don't remember
Speaker 1: writing that, but but I relate to it a lot. Um.
Speaker 1: I think because uh, you know, I grew up in
Speaker 1: the Staniley where my dad is very depressed and my
Speaker 1: mom was always trying to manage and control that, and
Speaker 1: I saw their relationship as tragic and as the last
Speaker 1: thing on earth I would ever want would be a
Speaker 1: marriage because look at what that looks like. And they
Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of friends, so I didn't see
Speaker 1: examples my formative years of any other way doing it.
Speaker 1: And so and I think that that has been my
Speaker 1: big burden and challenge in life, is that I desperately
Speaker 1: want that now and I don't think I know how
Speaker 1: to get it because for so long it was not
Speaker 1: something I wanted, you know, in early you know, when
Speaker 1: I was much younger, I I had this amazing, loving
Speaker 1: relationship and I sort of thought, oh, who wants this?
Speaker 1: There's a whole life to go get right and I
Speaker 1: could have better, and you know, it turns out so
Speaker 1: far that's not true. And and that's the constant heartbreak
Speaker 1: is that I had that and I don't know how
Speaker 1: to have it again. Yea, that that idea that there's
Speaker 1: something better out there is so painful. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: such a painful way to live. Yeah, it ends in
Speaker 1: so much pain. And I'm you know, I've written songs
Speaker 1: about it where it's just that idea, you know, the
Speaker 1: grass is always greener, and it's and it it keeps.
Speaker 1: It's like being on the fence perpetually. And what I've
Speaker 1: realized is that that very placement of being on the
Speaker 1: fence effect. Like you said, it's sort of a self
Speaker 1: fulfilling prophecy. Prophecy, right, I'm not really in the situation
Speaker 1: bringing everything that I am, And yes, then it's probably
Speaker 1: not going to work because I'm not really there. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I got my eye. I've got one of my eyes
Speaker 1: on the door the whole time to some degree. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think mind comes from the fact that I
Speaker 1: always felt that my mom settled for my dad and
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I just sort of said, I'm never going
Speaker 1: to do that, and I'm going to be financially independent
Speaker 1: so that I don't have to do that. That's probably
Speaker 1: not a bad strategy. The last part of that, it's
Speaker 1: not a bad strategy. I mean, all of it is
Speaker 1: not a bad strategy, but it it certainly makes you
Speaker 1: start to doubt at a certain point if it was
Speaker 1: such a good strategy, right, if you don't have it yet. Right.
Speaker 1: What I really liked about that part that we talked about,
Speaker 1: because it just it really it floored me. It's the
Speaker 1: best way I've ever heard anybody say it is that
Speaker 1: you always feel like I have to take care of
Speaker 1: the people that are around me and how they're feeling
Speaker 1: and That's why that experience can be so as you
Speaker 1: used oppressive to me. Why it feels like work, why
Speaker 1: it feels heavy, It's because I feel like I've got it.
Speaker 1: I'm always I'm on duty in some way. I'm on
Speaker 1: duty to make sure you feel okay. And so of
Speaker 1: course I don't want to be on duty, which is
Speaker 1: why I want to run off of me by myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think mine is is this Uh, it's
Speaker 1: sort of not. It's just trying to it's controlling ultimately
Speaker 1: because I'm trying to make sure. I mean, mine manifests
Speaker 1: itself as sort of talking a lot because I it's
Speaker 1: my own discomfort too. But I also want to make sure,
Speaker 1: and I know comes from my childhood. I want to
Speaker 1: make sure because my dad is also silent, it doesn't speak.
Speaker 1: And so the way to make sure everyone's okay is
Speaker 1: to take on that burden every time. Just do all
Speaker 1: the talking and do all the yeah, make sure everyone's
Speaker 1: comfortable and that and that's why, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: that was just a really profound insight. Um you had
Speaker 1: another thing that you talked about was your your comfort zone,
Speaker 1: and we talked a lot on the show about Um
Speaker 1: you know, comfort doesn't equal happiness. You kind of need
Speaker 1: to get out of your comfort zone. But I loved
Speaker 1: what you said where you you talked about you hate
Speaker 1: for the reason that you get reason being outside your
Speaker 1: comfort zone is so hard is that you hate to
Speaker 1: see anybody seeing you try. Yeah, like that, if you're
Speaker 1: making an effort, you're you're exposed or you're vulnerable. Do
Speaker 1: you want to tell me more about this? Yes, because
Speaker 1: it even happened this morning, and it was when I
Speaker 1: was trying to share and couldn't. I was like, I
Speaker 1: was humiliated that you were witnessing that, and it's so ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It's so ridiculous. But it's this this uh, this this
Speaker 1: fear of looking vulnerable right um is so real in
Speaker 1: me that I want everything to appear It's okay that
Speaker 1: you know I worked hard for something in the past,
Speaker 1: as long as you didn't have to see it. I
Speaker 1: relate with that so much. It's like I can speak
Speaker 1: very candidly about all my emotional states when they're done
Speaker 1: and I figured out how to solve them, and I
Speaker 1: can tell you how wise I was applying these principles,
Speaker 1: but in the moment, I can't, I can't get there
Speaker 1: with another person. Hell no. And and also it's like
Speaker 1: I'm really clear about you know, I also not to
Speaker 1: make this I saw pity at all. But one of
Speaker 1: the things that that was that my dad used to
Speaker 1: do is if I ever cried, he would always laugh,
Speaker 1: And then my mother, who was never used to seeing
Speaker 1: her depressed as and laugh, would laugh. And then my brother,
Speaker 1: who had never seen his parents be happy before, would
Speaker 1: laugh too. And so I know that's what it comes from.
Speaker 1: I'm I feel humiliated when I'm struggling and there are witnesses. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a pretty awful thing to have happened. And I
Speaker 1: can see why, given the way you're dead, was everybody
Speaker 1: else sort of piled on, not out of any sort
Speaker 1: of meanness, but out of like, oh, hell, there's actually
Speaker 1: a light moment in this house. Well yeah, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of the thing we were just talking about about
Speaker 1: discomfort and then feeling like they had to um take
Speaker 1: care of my dad, because that was always the focus
Speaker 1: is make sure this guy's okay and also give him
Speaker 1: free reign. You know, if if I have any reactions
Speaker 1: to sort of abuse from childhood, my mom will sort
Speaker 1: of say, well, but you're you know he's special. You know,
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to have feelings about that because he's not.
Speaker 1: Really he doesn't have the same ability to deal with
Speaker 1: the world that the normal people do, right. I think
Speaker 1: the thing about that that's is it doesn't mean it's
Speaker 1: anybody's fault. It doesn't take away the fact that it
Speaker 1: has an impact on who we've become, regardless of whether
Speaker 1: they because you can look at anybody and find a
Speaker 1: reason why they do what they do, and they may
Speaker 1: be reasonable, but it doesn't change the end result of
Speaker 1: the impact it has on the person that's on the
Speaker 1: receiving end. And I don't think that's reasonable. I don't
Speaker 1: think there's any reason a lot, even mental illness to
Speaker 1: laugh at your kids. I would agree. I mean, I
Speaker 1: hear things. I mean, my son is the most important
Speaker 1: thing in the world to me. I can't fathom. I mean,
Speaker 1: I just can't fathom. Also that the weird part is
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean I'm not important to my dad. My
Speaker 1: dad is like obsessed with me absolutely, So you know
Speaker 1: that's the part where you know he didn't intend to
Speaker 1: damage me. Well, I think that's what mental illness or
Speaker 1: you know, addiction problems. I mean, the things that people
Speaker 1: do in those states are are awful and they don't
Speaker 1: mean it. That's why we that's why we all like
Speaker 1: the idea to some degree of or why the concept
Speaker 1: of addiction is a disease is so helpful because we
Speaker 1: can I don't think we let ourselves off the hook
Speaker 1: with that, but it gives us a way to deal
Speaker 1: with some of the stuff we did that might be
Speaker 1: soul crushing. Otherwise, if you felt like this is who
Speaker 1: I am. Yeah, I'm a person that does that stuff. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's but it's tough if somebody is not ever
Speaker 1: willing to acknowledge that, um and change, it is tough.
Speaker 1: Do you think that if your if your dad did
Speaker 1: get better and acknowledge it, that that would make a
Speaker 1: difference in how you react to life? Or do you
Speaker 1: feel like those patterns at this point are pretty deeply
Speaker 1: conditioned and it's your job to decondition them both because
Speaker 1: I think that it's not that it would change, you know,
Speaker 1: my reactions. I believe everything important happens between zero and seven,
Speaker 1: and we spend eight to the rest of our lives
Speaker 1: trying to undo that damage. If there was damage, um,
Speaker 1: So I don't know that being said, I've you know,
Speaker 1: grown and my reactions and things that's gotten better. But
Speaker 1: it would certainly change my relationship with him and with
Speaker 1: the rest of my family, because you know, I don't
Speaker 1: have a relationship with him because it's not because I'm angry.
Speaker 1: It's because he doesn't know how to not abuse me.
Speaker 1: So it's not I'm not safe. I can't be re
Speaker 1: traumatized around him, right, Yeah, I absolutely would make a
Speaker 1: big difference in your in your relationship. Yeah. One of
Speaker 1: the things that came up in the meeting we were
Speaker 1: at earlier, and you said in uh in the book,
Speaker 1: is you know, the familiar ache rises in me, the
Speaker 1: feeling that someone close to me is something I'm scared
Speaker 1: I'm not ever going to get. And in the meeting,
Speaker 1: they were talking a lot about comparing despair. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: never heard that phrase. Never heard that phrase comparing despair.
Speaker 1: I've heard you know, don't compare your insides to somebody
Speaker 1: else's outsides. But I've been thinking a lot about that
Speaker 1: concept lately, even before I heard it in that meeting,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how poisonous that comparison is because
Speaker 1: and you can you can always look up at something
Speaker 1: you don't have it, and you can always look down
Speaker 1: at something you have that somebody else doesn't. But what
Speaker 1: I've realized is that neither of both those things do
Speaker 1: is keep me disconnected from people. So I'm just curious.
Speaker 1: And you you were honest enough in the meeting to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: you still wrestle with that, any thoughts on how to
Speaker 1: wrestle with it? Yeah, I mean it's a big, big
Speaker 1: thing for me, and it used to be very focused
Speaker 1: on career and and it was really painful. Also I
Speaker 1: love my mother dearly, but she's so competitive with me,
Speaker 1: and so I really grew up believe you know. And
Speaker 1: and and you know, my dad was just like you've
Speaker 1: got to be the best. You've got to be the best.
Speaker 1: And there was like he would bribe us to get
Speaker 1: good grades with them, he would never pay us, so
Speaker 1: you know, so it was it was definitely yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but and I think it's like also growing up like
Speaker 1: Jewish American, you know, they're this sort of past genetic
Speaker 1: history of we were oppressed, means we have to be
Speaker 1: the best and um, and so I I actually took
Speaker 1: steps to try to alleviate that in my career life
Speaker 1: because I saw every woman who was a writer as
Speaker 1: my competition, and I could never be happy for them,
Speaker 1: and all I ever saw with their successes was my failures.
Speaker 1: And so I started this storytelling show specifically to deal
Speaker 1: with that, so that it was all women. They were
Speaker 1: all successful writers. I had five of them a month
Speaker 1: for two years, and I started to understand that their
Speaker 1: success was my success because I would want them they
Speaker 1: were in my show, I would want them to succeed,
Speaker 1: and when they did, and when they were quote unquote
Speaker 1: better than me, it felt good. And um, it was
Speaker 1: amazing because it really cured that part of me it
Speaker 1: saw them as competition because especially you know, we're talking
Speaker 1: about the hell of writing books. Um, you know, anybody
Speaker 1: succeeding with a book in any way is a victory
Speaker 1: for us all because so few of us do. Um,
Speaker 1: and so many people outside of bookwriting, Thank you sold
Speaker 1: the book. You must be how dare you complaining? And
Speaker 1: it's this sort of pain that only people who write
Speaker 1: books talk about because we can commiserate with each other
Speaker 1: because your publishers make you feel like such a failure.
Speaker 1: You know, you you're not writing fifty Shades of Gray,
Speaker 1: and you know most people don't read you. I think
Speaker 1: independent musicians can share the same pain. It's that that
Speaker 1: is a top down model. It's like for every you know,
Speaker 1: for every Mariah Carey, there's a hundred bands tramp a thousand.
Speaker 1: But the one other thing I want to say about that, uh,
Speaker 1: is that you know, I don't compare myself to Hillary
Speaker 1: Clinton and feel bad. I compare myself to those who
Speaker 1: have what I seem to think I could get. And
Speaker 1: there's this I always wish I could find it. Someone
Speaker 1: once mentioned to me that Freud has a saying about that,
Speaker 1: like the comparison to the one near you or something
Speaker 1: like that. I've googled and I cannot find it. So
Speaker 1: if you find it, tell me. But but you know,
Speaker 1: it's that's the that's where it really gets painful. And
Speaker 1: so by the fact that I don't compare myself to
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton or Arianna Huffington's or whoever it is and
Speaker 1: feel inferior shows me that it's not about comparing. It's
Speaker 1: about jealousy, you know, it's about wanting you have specifically UH,
Speaker 1: and and not about anything else. But you you you
Speaker 1: solved that by it sounds like I'm trying to think
Speaker 1: of what's the principle underneath what you did, because what
Speaker 1: you did was a pretty specific action, was actually connecting
Speaker 1: with those people, building a real connection with them. It
Speaker 1: was building and it was it was making it so
Speaker 1: that their success was my success, and it kind of
Speaker 1: gave me this feeling of solidarity rather than this feeling
Speaker 1: of alienation. And it was also rather than seeing them
Speaker 1: as getting stuff I couldn't get, I get to know
Speaker 1: them when we start talking and they're dealing with the
Speaker 1: same exact thing. And so those stories we make up
Speaker 1: in our head, um is you know, those are the lies?
Speaker 1: You know. Did you ever read Sumbling upon Happiness? You'd
Speaker 1: love it? I don't think. Well, I think I did,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember a lot of it. That's my
Speaker 1: favorite book about happiness is that Dan Gilbert. I think
Speaker 1: so I can't remember their name is always on the
Speaker 1: same these guys who write these happiness books. But but
Speaker 1: it was about the thing that I remember is is
Speaker 1: basically just comparing our inside to other people's outsides. We never, um,
Speaker 1: we can't see the full picture. And it's interesting we're
Speaker 1: talking about a handicapped friend because he specifically uses that
Speaker 1: we look the general public looks at someone who's handicapped
Speaker 1: and says, oh my god, their life must be so tragic.
Speaker 1: I can't imagine because we are not inside their life
Speaker 1: feeling joy about certain things, and and um and and
Speaker 1: the full breadth. And that's that's always true. As we
Speaker 1: can make up these stories about how perfect someone's life is,
Speaker 1: but you know, life deals everybody paying. Yeah. That was
Speaker 1: one of the remarkable things about Andrew Solomon's latest book,
Speaker 1: Far from the Tree, because it's about parents of children
Speaker 1: who have heat exceptional, whether that exceptional will be down
Speaker 1: syndrome or autism, or being a genius or being a criminal.
Speaker 1: And but what he fought The theme he seems to
Speaker 1: tie together through all that is that a lot of
Speaker 1: those people have really wonderful lives, and it's about their
Speaker 1: decision to embrace that life and and uh and that
Speaker 1: they all go through some degree of I wish my
Speaker 1: life looked like that, but they by inhabiting their own
Speaker 1: life deeply, they're able to find meaning and happiness within it.
Speaker 1: But then, aren't you saying, then and acceptance is the
Speaker 1: answer to all my problems today, A sort of because
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is that and Andrew and I talked
Speaker 1: about this was this is where the line the people
Speaker 1: who whose situations are unchangeable end up being the happiest.
Speaker 1: And he says, so, he says, obviously, if you have
Speaker 1: a situation that you can easily change, you do that.
Speaker 1: And if you have a situation you know you can't change,
Speaker 1: you don't. And that whole gray area in between is
Speaker 1: where the sort of struggle, you know, the wisdom point is.
Speaker 1: I do think acceptance is the answer to a lot
Speaker 1: of things. I think it's a middle ground. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that's why the serenity prayer is so powerful.
Speaker 1: Is it says, Look, these are two these are the
Speaker 1: two states. You can't have one or the other. You
Speaker 1: need both and you got to figure out that wisdom.
Speaker 1: And I just keep hoping somebody's gonna be able to
Speaker 1: give me that wisdom. And you know, one simple trick
Speaker 1: to you know, it's not it's not out there. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just not it's just not out there. But it's
Speaker 1: a compelling question to me. Yeah yeah, And you know,
Speaker 1: ideally a sponsor of someone who can do that, yep, yep.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the taking it outside of just sponsorship.
Speaker 1: But that's or just recovery. That's the lure of the guru,
Speaker 1: of the spiritual teacher, the pastor the you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it is really nice to have somebody say here's what
Speaker 1: you should do. Yeah, because being an adult is freaking
Speaker 1: Can you believe it? Can you believe how how ill
Speaker 1: prepared most of us are for that? Yeah? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it is amazing. It's I'm sometimes amazed by how well
Speaker 1: people do in general, because if you really got But
Speaker 1: I hate to keep bringing up Andrew Solomon, but he
Speaker 1: talks for people who have depression, what they believe is
Speaker 1: they're finally seeing the real world. They're seeing the you know,
Speaker 1: the veil has been pulled back, and there's all sorts
Speaker 1: of tests that say depressed people are far more capable
Speaker 1: of making good judgments in factual things. That's so awful,
Speaker 1: I know, I know. It's like they put them through
Speaker 1: this game where they're like they have to go play
Speaker 1: video game and kill lots of things or shoot things,
Speaker 1: and at the end they asked them how many things
Speaker 1: do they think they killed? And the depressed people are
Speaker 1: usually pretty accurate, and the the happy, optimistic people are like,
Speaker 1: you know, off by a factor of six or something, Right,
Speaker 1: they're just delusional. But there's something to be said for
Speaker 1: that delusion. I mean, it's it's uh. I take it
Speaker 1: by the way I would tell you know, I have
Speaker 1: a friend we always talk about, you know, she has
Speaker 1: she has some friends who are who are sort of
Speaker 1: happy and don't wrestle with these feelings and and it's
Speaker 1: just because they're not thinking about them. And how can
Speaker 1: we be those people? I would take it to I
Speaker 1: don't think it's in the cards for me at all.
Speaker 1: I just that's not the way I'm I'm I'm wired.
Speaker 1: Henry James William James m has you know, the varieties
Speaker 1: of religious experience, but he describes there's two kinds of people.
Speaker 1: There's firstborn people. I may not be getting this exactly right,
Speaker 1: but they basically come out and they know how to
Speaker 1: be happy, and they know how to function in life,
Speaker 1: and they go on their way and there you would say,
Speaker 1: they're relatively shallow and because they don't have any need
Speaker 1: to not be, they just know how to live life.
Speaker 1: And then there's the second born people, which is the
Speaker 1: people who come out and really are just the world's
Speaker 1: a you know, a clusterfuck to them, right, they don't
Speaker 1: know what to do, and they eventually find the thing
Speaker 1: that gives them the ability to cope with that, and
Speaker 1: they tend to be very um, they tend to be
Speaker 1: very thoughtful, they tend to be very but it's it's
Speaker 1: because they just had to. I'm definitely the ladder in
Speaker 1: that group too. I mean, there's just there's no doubt
Speaker 1: about it. But that's said, I'm clearly a far better,
Speaker 1: more functioning version of that that ladder than I have
Speaker 1: been at different points in my life where you know,
Speaker 1: the bad wolf is totally running the show. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely suffer from second child syndrome and um and
Speaker 1: you know, I guess you get to say, Okay, we've suffered,
Speaker 1: so we're deeper thinkers. Who cares. I don't need deep thoughts, right,
Speaker 1: all right, Well, I think we are about at the
Speaker 1: end of our time. This has been fun. It's fun
Speaker 1: to sit in person, and it's one of the few
Speaker 1: times I've relied on my notes almost none at all,
Speaker 1: because he didn't know it's good. That's good. So thank
Speaker 1: you very much and thank you. We will talk soon.
Speaker 1: All right bye. You can learn more about this podcast
Speaker 1: and Anna David at one you feed dot net. Slash
Speaker 1: Anna