1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 4: He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year 7 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 4: it will be different. 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 3: He'll vote Republican. There is a reason the US government 9 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 3: is so reliant on him. Elon Musk is a scam 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 3: artist and he's done nothing. 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: Anything he does, he's fascinating to people. Welcome to the Elaniing, 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, November twenty sixth. 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: I'm your host, David Papadopolis, And before we get into 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: anything else, I've got an exciting bit of information for 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: all you dear listeners out there, which is that we 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: have created for you an email address in which you 17 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: can ping us your thoughts, your ideas, things you love, 18 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: things you hate about the show, or things you want 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: us to do going forward. It is Eloninc. At Bloomberg 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: dot net and it is open to receive your messages 21 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: as we speak. Right now, I am sitting here in 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: the studio with our man, Max Chafkin. Hey, they're Max. 23 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 3: Hey David. 24 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: Okay, Max, So it's Thanksgiving week here, as you well know, 25 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: you got your turkey ready, Pal. 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 3: I did. 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: I brianed it last night. I started this. I started 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:41,839 Speaker 2: the Brian process. 29 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: Brian is incredibly key until we started brining the Turkey 30 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: years ago. Way too dry. Brianing's gene. 31 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: You do a wet Brian or a dry Brian. 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: Wet Brian. Okay, well done, Max. Now, in addition to 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: the Brianing of the Turkey Thanksgiving, it's just a busy 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: time of the year. So you know, we're pulling the 35 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: recording from the archives this week. Max previously unreleased live 36 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: recording from the tech summit that Bloomberg held in London 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: last month. Great chat about misinformation or on the globe 38 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: X is growing roll in it. But you know, Max, 39 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: before we roll that tape, I can't help but be 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: curious about some recent developments with DOZE. You remember DOGE. 41 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: Max, you're talking about the Department of Government Deficiency that 42 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: may or may not be an actual department. 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: I am talking about the Department of Government Efficiency that 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: may or may not be a department. Correct. I want 45 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: to pick your brain about this, But I also max, 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: I got to get something off my chest first. So 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: you're you're gonna listen to me, now, okay, all right, 48 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: humor me here. 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 3: You've been dying. I know that this take is weeks, 50 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 3: not months. 51 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: You know, there's been a lot of joking about Doge, 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: but you know, I think the macro backdrop is important, 53 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: the macroeconomic backdrop to the rise of Doge, which is 54 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: you know. So one of the clear ways I think 55 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: we can interpret the election results are the American people 56 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: rejecting the inflation spike we saw on saying in loud 57 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: and no uncertain terms, we are voting out the current 58 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: administration because we hated that inflation. And it is also 59 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: a statement of fact that while there were many drivers 60 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: of the inflation spike that we've suffered over the last 61 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: few years, unprecedented budget deficits being run by the government 62 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: starting under Trump in twenty twenty, carried carried on by 63 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Biden in subsequent years are a key part of it. 64 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: And so I think that in the abstract, it stands 65 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: to reason that you say, hey, it's no coincidence that 66 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: something like Doge was launched right now, A group of 67 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: people coming together to say, hey, how can we squeeze 68 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: and tighten government spending, get the deficit under control, and 69 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: try to tame inflation. Now, of course, there's also the 70 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: fact that this incoming administry also talks incessantly about cutting taxes, 71 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: which is true, will only drive the deficit right back up. 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: But let's strip that part of it out for a second, though, 73 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: and just say, hey, when it comes to spending and 74 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: the deficit, they have something of a point, okay, to 75 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: which why do you say they don't. 76 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: I don't say that they don't. I mean, they obviously do, 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 2: but I don't think it's in any way clear that 78 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: there is a plan indaged to deal with it, or 79 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: that voters in fact voted for it. And when you 80 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: start like, yes, voters were very upset about rising prices, 81 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: but Trump also campaigned on a booming economy. He's gonna 82 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 2: pressure whoever runs a federal reserve to lower interest rates, 83 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: you know. 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: So so I don't know that. 85 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: I don't know that it's clear that voters are like, yeah, 86 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: let's let's cut let's cut social security spending, let's cut medicare, 87 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: let's cut the Defense Department. Like none of those things 88 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: are popular and unfortunately that's what it's gonna take. And 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: on top of that, I don't think Elon Musk or 90 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 2: Vivek Ramaswami have really laid out a plan to address 91 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: that spending with the stuff that's largely been talked about. 92 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: Seems like it's more about sort of making very modest 93 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,559 Speaker 2: tweaks or whatever to to how the government operates stuff 94 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: that I don't know is actually gonna move's gonna do anything, right, Like, 95 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 2: I think that this is like another instance of a 96 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: bunch of tech guys attempting to apply themselves. And we're 97 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: actually starting to see like there is some excitement in 98 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: the world of tech for this because Elon is a 99 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 2: big name and there's a sense of possibility under Trump, 100 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: he obviously has a lot of access. I just think 101 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: it's gonna be it's gonna be really hard for them 102 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: to do anything. 103 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: Indeed, we shall see if they manage to come up 104 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: with actual, tangible, meaningful cuts that are politically palatable to 105 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: a majority in Congress to move the needle. But as 106 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: you were just alluding to the team at DOGE, the 107 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: large team at DOGE is starting to take shape. 108 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: I mean, there are some basically some friends of Elon, 109 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 2: some some of his like this guy Steve Davis, who's 110 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: one of his longtime deputies. He worked at SpaceX, he 111 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: worked at Boring Company. He's sort of like Musk's like 112 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: top fixer. 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 3: He was at X for a while. 114 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: There were reports that he was involved in Pennsylvania. He's 115 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: involved with Doge Antonio Grossius, who's one of Musk's good friends. 116 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: He's involved. 117 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 2: Are these guys going to be involved in in a 118 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: full time capacity, Like, I'm not totally sure. I think 119 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: it's gonna be. Musk joked about this, you know, he said, 120 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: you're gonna have to be work, you know, willing to 121 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 2: work like eighty hours a week for like little to 122 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: no pay and and you know, effectively like sleep on 123 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: the floor of the you know, all the. 124 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: Dog Yeah, and in the energy department or something. 125 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: And we know where the Doge office will be. Max. 126 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: My assumption is, well, for now, I think they're based 127 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: in They're in mar A Lago with everybody else who's 128 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: around Trump's orbit. My assumption that it is that it 129 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:02,239 Speaker 2: will be somewhere in DC, although probably the government building. 130 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 3: I think it'll be in a wee work actually there 131 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: we go we work. 132 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: Work, so right. You mentioned Antonio grass Is, Steve Davis, 133 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: Joe Lonsdale I believe has been tell us about him. 134 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 2: Joe Lonsdale is kind of a Peter Teel protege. He's 135 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 2: a co founder of Palenteer. He's an investor I believe 136 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: has a big stake in SpaceX. He's based in Texas. 137 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: He's one of the guys who I think served as 138 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 2: kind of an entree to Elon Musk's like political engagement. 139 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: But I again, I don't know that he is going 140 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 2: to become a full time employee of DOGE. Like it 141 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: really sounds like they're a bunch of a bunch of 142 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: guys who have ideas and they they haven't totally figured 143 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: out how to actually staff this thing or what does 144 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: even staffing it look like. I was talking to somebody 145 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 2: who's had a conversations with people involved with DOGE, and 146 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: they were saying that, you know, it's gonna be maybe 147 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: Elon and Vivek Ramaswami each bring you know, five or 148 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: six people into a five oh one c three so 149 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: so in other words, a privately funded a privately funded 150 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: entity rather than a government program, which makes sense because 151 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: you because Elon Musk is not gonna want to like 152 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: deal with government ethics roles and so on. But again, 153 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: like I don't know how much you really get done 154 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: with that. And again beyond, they're definitely gonna be able 155 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: to make a lot of political noise, and I think 156 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: they're gonna be able to have a role from like 157 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,559 Speaker 2: an advocacy position, perhaps especially given that Trump is listening 158 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: to Elon Musk right now, and there are members in Congress, 159 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 2: both houses of Congress who are saying, yeah, like. 160 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: We're gonna have a Doge caucus. We're gonna like there's 161 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: gonna be a liaison. 162 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: It isn't Marjorie Taylor Green. 163 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, and tg she's she's on board. 164 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: I believe Joni Ernst in the Senate has has indicated 165 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: that she's gonna, you know, be some sort of representative 166 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: or whatever, some somebody who's gonna advocate for this stuff. 167 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: So I think it's we should look at this like, 168 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: I'm sure these guys are technologists. I'm sure they're gonna 169 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 2: try to like do some data stuff. But I think 170 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: this is that we should think of this more as 171 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: a political thing rather than like they're gonna like find 172 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: like lots of narrow efficiencies of government and bring it together. 173 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: They're going to come out and say we should get 174 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: rid of the Department of Education, Congress, go for. 175 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: It or whatever. 176 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: Now, as in as a close listener of citizen Elon 177 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: Max and a big fan, I heard you say the 178 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: other day that you are simultaneously thinking that Doge will 179 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: go nowhere at all, but also could have perhaps you 180 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: also then think an enormous impact. Are you still sort 181 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: of back and forth between the. 182 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Two general I mean, I'm more optimistic about Elon Musk's 183 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 2: chances to have an impact politically than I think almost 184 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: anybody else, including a bunch of the people who talk 185 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: on the podcast. 186 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 3: And I think that's because that's why. 187 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: We cut them all out today. It's just you and Well. 188 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: I mean, here's the thing, like, we all come with biases, 189 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: and a lot of people who've been in Washington a 190 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: long time and who've covered Trump for a long time 191 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: have seen business leader after business leader, you know, get 192 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: into Trump's orbit and sort of crash out in borderline 193 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: humiliating and or career destroying spectacular flame out. People who've 194 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: covered Elon Musk for a long time and have followed him, 195 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 2: have seen him over and over again sort of cajole, 196 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: you know, work his butt off, do whatever it takes 197 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: essentially to succeed and cause his enemies to fall away. 198 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: So like, if you've been following Elon for a long 199 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: time as I have, it's like you think, like, Okay, well, 200 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 2: you know, maybe there's a chance he's gonna figure this out. 201 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: And I do think he has things going for him 202 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: that are underappreciated, like his wallet and his willingness to 203 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: spend in the midterm elections. If that, if that keeps up, 204 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: gives him real leverage over Trump. 205 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Well if the value of these can't and won't keep spending, 206 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 1: and even. 207 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 2: If they as long as as long as the value 208 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: of Tesla doesn't collapse, like he like spending a couple 209 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: hundred million dollars in twenty twenty six, Like he can 210 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: do that very easily, and that's gonna be a huge 211 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 2: asset to the President elect and to the kind of 212 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 2: hard right Republicans who want to buy into this agenda. 213 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: So Max, beyond Elon fretting about as I was earlier, 214 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 1: the evils of inflation that can often be caused by 215 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: out of control budget deficits, what does he want to 216 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: get out of Doge. 217 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: I honestly think that Doge, and we we get into 218 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: this in the Citizen Elon podcast in the last episode, 219 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 2: But I think Doge is just an entree for him 220 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: into Trump World. And I think what he wants is 221 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: to influence government policy in areas that he knows and 222 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: where he is positioned to benefit. So it's government contracts 223 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: like he does, and there are aspects of government procurement 224 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 2: that he has spent lot been exposed to and has 225 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: like big thoughts, and I suppose, like Doge, if you squint, 226 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: has something to do with those. But now I think 227 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: it's more about trying to, you know, push the government 228 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: in the direction that you know that that he thinks 229 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: would be good, which you know consequentially happens to involve 230 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: him getting even richer. 231 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: Yes, I do suppose that would be a nice little 232 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 1: knock on effect, and we'll find out just how far 233 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: Doge gets. We will be talking about it, dear listeners 234 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: again and again and again in coming months, so you 235 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: have that to look forward to. But Max, let's go 236 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: back to London that time we did that show. Remember 237 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: that show we did in London. 238 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 3: I mean it's hazy. You know, I feel like I've 239 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 3: lived a lifetime. 240 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: But but you know, in reviewing it, I do think 241 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 2: that conversation we had is really important. You know, we 242 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 2: talked about disinformation at X and and the ways in 243 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: which governments in particular have started to resist it or 244 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: try to resist it. And you know X as we 245 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: saw with this election, like it's a part of Elon 246 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: Musk's empire. It's the media arm of Elon Inc. And 247 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: if it's weakened either because it sort of goes too 248 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: far and makes some governments in Europe. 249 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 3: Mad or it pisses off its users. 250 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: And they go to Blue Sky or something else, as 251 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 2: we talked about last week, you know that's gonna that's 252 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 2: gonna hurt Elon. It's gonna hurt more than Disney going 253 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: away or whatever. 254 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: Right. 255 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: Wait, wait, so if it's the media armor of Elon ink, 256 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: what the hell are we you think about it? 257 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: I don't know. 258 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: So let's listen to that recording. It's me and you Max, 259 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: and it's a special guest. We had Debica Shanker grand Pierre, 260 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: who's a former social media executive and now a professor. 261 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: We recorded this a week or so before the elections. 262 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: And then, Hey, Max, don't go anywhere, because when we're 263 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: done listening to it, I've got to ping you in 264 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: a couple of other things I've had on my mind, 265 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: as you can say, I've had a lot on my 266 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: mind of Lake. I'm here for you, David. All right, right, 267 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: Hello everyone. I'm David Popadopolis, host of Elon, Inc. Bloomberg's 268 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: weekly podcast and all Things Elon. It's great to be 269 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: here in London for the Bloomberg Tech Summit, and we 270 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: have a great show ahead for you. I'm joined on 271 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,960 Speaker 1: stage by my man Max Chafkin, senior writer at BusinessWeek 272 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 1: and not only a regular on this show, but now 273 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 1: the host of another Elon pod. You're gonna be all 274 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: eloned out very soon, a mini series on his political 275 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: awakening called Citizen Elon that debuts today. We Max Hey. 276 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 1: Also with us is Debica Shanker grand Pierre, tech risk expert. 277 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 4: Now. 278 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: Debica spent over a decade working at large social media 279 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: platforms like TikTok and Meta. 280 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 4: Welcome Debaica, thank you for having me, David. 281 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Okay, given that the theme for today's event is trust, we're 282 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: going to dive into the controversial evolution of X under 283 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: Elon and how his move into politics is drawing every 284 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: greater scrutiny of the platform and is broader global empire. 285 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: By the way, we're recording here, so you know, try 286 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: to you know at some point in time, you know, 287 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: yuck it up. Laugh ten year into it, Debeka, We're 288 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: going to start with you. It's funny. You know, the 289 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: words trust in safety get thrown around a lot. Even 290 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: at the university you teach at in Greece, those words 291 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: figure prominently in the name of one of your winter 292 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: semester courses. So at places like Meta TikTok X, what 293 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: do those terms actually mean? What do those teams do there? 294 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 4: Essentially, trust and safety are the people who keep the 295 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 4: Internet safe. So they do broadly three things. Number one, 296 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: define the rules of acceptable behavior online. Number two enforce 297 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 4: those rules in a consistent, objective, reproducible manner, and number 298 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 4: three come up with innovative ways to make sure that 299 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 4: people can have a safe experience, and of late also 300 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 4: work with regulators and close partnerships to meet with all 301 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 4: of the compliance requirements. So those three four things sort 302 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 4: of boil down to what we broadly mean by trust 303 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 4: and safety in. 304 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: Tech and now, when Musk took over Twitter now X, 305 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: you know he famously gutted a huge part of the 306 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: trust and safety team, something like eighty percent of it 307 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: as part of that, you know, massive chaotic layoffs that 308 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: he did when he first got there. What are the 309 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: risks of doing that and how are we seeing them 310 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: play out now? 311 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 4: So the impact of gutting your trust and safety team 312 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 4: is simply real world consequences. So if you get rid 313 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: of eighty percent of the people who are responsible for 314 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 4: keeping your platform safe, all of us here who use 315 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: X can see and feel for ourselves the level and 316 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 4: type of discourse the endless stream of crypto offers the 317 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 4: only defense ads we see all of that in English now. 318 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 4: If we take those risks that we can feel tangibly 319 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 4: and magnify that by one hundred X, I think we 320 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 4: can begin to have a vague understanding of what the 321 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 4: risks look like in non English speaking countries. 322 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: So do we see these problems proliferating more on X 323 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: now than we would on other platforms? 324 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 4: The problems have felt more acutely on X on account 325 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 4: of not having teams that are responsible for making sure 326 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 4: that the platform is safe in those languages and in 327 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 4: those countries. 328 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 2: When Ela Musk brought back foreign President Trump to his platform, right, 329 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: he did it via a pole and it was like 330 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: he just said, like should I bring President Trump back? 331 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 1: Yes? 332 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 3: Or no? 333 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: Vox popular Vox day, you know, basically like hey, whatever 334 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: you think is cool. And it's such an interesting contrast 335 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 2: to like Facebook, which was so the decision to ban 336 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: Trump and then like what to do with him. 337 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 3: Was so fraught that they created. 338 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 2: This entire like Supreme Court like called the Oversight Board 339 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: literally and they and they wrote this like lengthy brief 340 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: sort of discussing you know, the and and musc of courses, 341 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: just shooting from the hip, I think partly because that's 342 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 2: just how he runs his companies. And he just decided, 343 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, hey, how hard could it be to run 344 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: a social media site, which of course overlooks like a 345 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 2: lot of the problems that Davikas bring up. And then 346 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: you know, and then also has like these political reasons 347 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: to do so that. 348 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,680 Speaker 1: There can be there can be too much intervention from 349 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: these teams, can they're not max? 350 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's the question, there's like a 351 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: philosophical question of like how like how open. 352 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: Should social media companies be? 353 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 2: Like like people talk about free speech and and like 354 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 2: should it be unlimited free speech? So there's there's that, 355 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: there's that question, and then like what that does to 356 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: trust as far as people who use the platform, because 357 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 2: you want people use the platform to feel like it's 358 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: not an arbitrary it's not just like whatever the owner 359 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 2: wants in that particular moment. 360 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 4: The key thing that you want to have as any 361 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 4: platform that like cares about its users and has a 362 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 4: core principle is really you want to make sure that 363 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 4: the decisions that you make are objective, reproducible, and testable. 364 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 4: Like doing a poll on who should come back to 365 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 4: your platform or not? I think maybe fails all three 366 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 4: of those thinky things. 367 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 1: And if you take the position one the pole overwhelming 368 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: that Trump should come. 369 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 4: Back, I mean I would. I think the problem with 370 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 4: that is if you decide, hypothetically speaking, that you're going 371 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 4: to have a digital platform where you make all decisions 372 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 4: based on referendums, let's make up this world where that's 373 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 4: the case, right, you still need to have some sort 374 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 4: of guardrails around how often you're going to do the polls. 375 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 4: Who are the people who are going to vote on 376 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 4: these poles. What results are good is eighty percent goods 377 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 4: seventy percent goods, so that you can apply those in 378 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: a uniform and firm way. And to add on to 379 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 4: what Max said, I think Musk went from its free 380 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 4: speech I like free speech to I like free speech 381 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 4: as long as it's legal, to I like free speech 382 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 4: as long as it's legal, but I'm still uncomfortable about 383 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 4: people who track my jets or people who use terms 384 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 4: lexis gender to I like free speech as long as 385 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 4: it's legal. But if a country like Brazil says that 386 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 4: it's legal, then I'm kind of not okay with it. Well, 387 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: you can't go through those, right, you know, those huge 388 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 4: changes in your position in a very short period of time. 389 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: I think that's It's also weird because Musk right now 390 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: feels like he's falling into many of the same pitfalls 391 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: that he like criticized the you know, the prior regime. 392 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: Like Musk's critique of Twitter was that they were too 393 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 2: captured by Biden and by Democratic politicians. And now you 394 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: have Musk himself, you know, serve acting as a surrogate, 395 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 2: you know, campaigning with the former president, and you know 396 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: along the way having to make all these like very 397 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: difficult decisions, and that kind of erodes trust as well. 398 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: Very much so. And we will get back to that 399 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: issue in a second. I just want to ask you 400 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: to because though I hear what you're saying on some 401 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: of those things in that evolution, that's that's taken part 402 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: in terms of his you know, how he's viewed how 403 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: to treat these issues. But I still I guess I 404 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: wonder if you were to sell your soul, not that 405 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: you would do such a thing, but if you were 406 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 1: to sell your soul and go over the dark side. 407 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin said here, here's a half a million dollars 408 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: a month to help me spread disinformation. What would you 409 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: tell them? You just simply say, just go to X. 410 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: Do it all there. 411 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 4: First of all, I don't think you need half millions. 412 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: I think it's I think he's overpaying. But obviously that's. 413 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: No you I'm offering you. 414 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 4: So I think I would probably say, yeah, go to X, 415 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 4: because if you don't. X doesn't label any any of 416 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 4: the official Russian propaganda state media. There's no labels on 417 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 4: any of them. So people interact with content from Russian 418 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 4: state sponsored points of view without really knowing that that's 419 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 4: who they're interacting with. 420 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: I mean, the odds of getting anything you know, banned 421 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: or removed are pretty low. 422 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 4: Yes, they don't, at least according to the latest transparency report. 423 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 4: No mention of what they're doing around coed influence operations 424 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 4: or specifically disinformation. I think it again ties back to 425 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 4: the original thing around, like, if you don't have anyone 426 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 4: looking at the problem or measuring the problem, then I 427 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 4: suppose you can take the view that there is no problem. 428 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: Correct, Well, you would sell your soul by the way 429 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: easily in a second. But would you also send them texture? 430 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: Do you have some other grand plan to spread disinformation? 431 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think what's so interesting about X 432 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 2: is that it's a relatively small plant. I mean, like 433 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,719 Speaker 2: you know, Facebook, Instagram has a lot more, TikTok has 434 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: more users. The reach is just shrunk now, I do think, 435 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: and there was there's been all this talk around how 436 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: Elon must change. Actually, you know, he famously, as you said, 437 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: laid off all these people and did all these things 438 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: that sent a lot of users, including a lot of 439 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: prominent users, including celebrities and journalists and so on. 440 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 3: You know, essentially running from the hills or you know. 441 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: Defecting to Instagram and threads, which is the you know 442 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: Instagram like you know Twitter version. But on the other hand, 443 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: I think it still remains culturally relevant and like, especially 444 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: in the US, and especially in terms of like conservative politics, 445 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 2: it is like where that political conversation still seems to 446 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: be happening. 447 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 3: And therefore, yes, if I were part. 448 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: Of the half a million dollars media, you know, and 449 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 2: I have no other choice, right, Like, it does seem 450 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: like a pretty effective way to. 451 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 3: Like reach a politically engaged audience. 452 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: And I think, like, I mean, that's obviously bad from 453 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 2: a you know, or not obviously bad. It It might 454 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 2: be bad from a societal point of view, but it 455 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: is in some sense to el must credit because X 456 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: is still relevant. 457 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 4: I think regulators around the world are like waking up 458 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: and realizing, like, what what do we want to signal here? 459 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 4: And exactly around that political conversation in the US, that's 460 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 4: everyone feels that, But like if we just move just 461 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 4: zoom out a bit. Right, Currently, there is an ongoing 462 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 4: conflict standoff diplomatic standoff between India and Canada around the 463 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 4: alleged assault and murder of a sick activist. If you 464 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 4: go on x for understanding or if you just want 465 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: to see what's happening on this specific topic, all of 466 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 4: the top sited algorithmically amplified sources of information are state 467 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 4: media points of view. And why that. 468 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: Is especially media from Russia. 469 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 4: In India, so that Sputnik India are to India, these 470 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 4: are your top sources. And this is why this is 471 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 4: interesting is because the content that Russian state media is 472 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 4: creating in a country like India, it's extremely localized. Its 473 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 4: means it's entertaining and it you seed their point they 474 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 4: see their point of view so effectively in local languages 475 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 4: that it gets picked up by journalists in India who 476 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 4: still use x right for a variety of reasons. And 477 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 4: then that's part of the mainstream conversation conversation and then 478 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 4: it's hard to say it did it starts, hard to say. 479 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: Where it starts, but it does get the people worked up. 480 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk a little bit about the riots 481 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: that broke out here in the UK this summer in 482 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: the wake of the mass stabbing in Southport. The riots 483 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: here were a concrete case of a virtual mob turning 484 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: into an actual mob in the streets, much of that 485 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: virtual mob congregating on x egg don by Musk, who 486 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: was predicting civil war here. So the counterfactual is hard 487 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: to map out and prove. But did the riots take 488 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: place if there was no such thing as social media? 489 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 3: I mean there were riots. 490 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: And this is what if you ask like a social 491 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: media company, like an executive here, like they would say, well, 492 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: there were riots before there, you know, race riots existed 493 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: in the world before social media. Unfortunately, Yet on the 494 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 2: other hand, I don't know. I mean, it's really tempting 495 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 2: to see this, to see this as a case where 496 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: like the influence of these platforms and of our kind 497 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: of just completely broken, like information ecosystems that are very 498 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: entertaining are you know, are spilling on the real world. 499 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: And then it creates this like additional problem when when 500 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: you're like, hey, social media companies, can you perhaps rain 501 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: this in a little bit, you know, maybe you could 502 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: try to help us like figure out how to deal 503 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 2: with this, you know, crisis, and the CEO of one 504 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 2: of them, Elon Musk, is just like, hey, sorry, I'm 505 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: busy posting my own memes about the race riot, which 506 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 2: is what was going on I mean he was not 507 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 2: only ignoring British lawmakers, he was just sort of like 508 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 2: you know, pouring you know, extra gasoline on the fire. 509 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 510 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 4: I think the fire gasoline like sort of contribution to 511 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: the problem and the real world consequences. And it's another 512 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 4: one of those things where you like look at the 513 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 4: entire globe and you see there are parts of the 514 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 4: world where what's on the Internet leads you there is 515 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 4: a direct link between what happens in the real world. 516 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 4: I can give you an example, since we're all the 517 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 4: unfortunate topic of riots. Just a couple of months ago, 518 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 4: Bangladesh had went through this huge period of political turmoil. 519 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 4: The Prime Minister fled the country at extreme short notice, 520 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 4: and there was a claim that one of the beloved 521 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 4: cricketers for everyone who follows cricket, our house was touched 522 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 4: as part of communal violence in Bangladesh. And this was 523 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 4: a claim that originated on x And this was a 524 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 4: time and internet was shut down in Bangladesh as a 525 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 4: response to what can you do to control the risks 526 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 4: and the spread of information? Right, So this claim was 527 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 4: fact checked by multiple fact checkers within I want to 528 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,920 Speaker 4: say five to six hours, but that content that this 529 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 4: is misleading and this was false was not anywhere to 530 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 4: be seen on the platform, and it kind of took 531 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 4: a life of its own, and it spread to the 532 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 4: neighboring countries who then started to make kill lists of 533 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 4: people who belong to minority groups within their local communities, 534 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 4: and they did that on X in languages which are 535 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 4: non English, and you can still probably find a lot 536 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 4: of them under the algorithmically amplified section of X for Bangladesh. 537 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: So the actual contribution to a crisis will riot still happen, yes, 538 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 4: but what is a contribution to that real world consequence 539 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 4: because of technology in different parts of the world. I 540 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 4: think it's quite varied. In some places it's extremely high, 541 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 4: like Myanmar or Bangladesh or India, and in some places 542 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 4: it's more muted. 543 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: There was a sense that Musk is going to be 544 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: called or some of the leaders of acts, we are 545 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: going to be called to the UK and held to 546 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: account and forced to ask answer questions that never happened. 547 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: At the same time, there are do seem like there's 548 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: some forces building here in UK and broader Europe where 549 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: they have a slightly more dim or harsh view towards 550 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: social media than is the case in the US. Are 551 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: we going to see actions taken potentially in the future. 552 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: Is Musk on a collision course with regulators here in Europe? 553 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 4: I think yes, there's a short. 554 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: Answer, He's on a collision course definitely. 555 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 4: I think the slightly longer answer would be, and I'm 556 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 4: sure this is the discussion that is happening at Offcom 557 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 4: and multiple regulators and the European Commission around what is 558 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 4: the message we want to send with regards to compliance 559 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 4: to regulation of social media. So based on where they 560 00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 4: land on that spectrum, I think it's unlikely that it 561 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 4: would be as extreme as. 562 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: Telegram CEO who was arrested. 563 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 4: But it is now up to the regulators to send 564 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 4: the right message, I think, because if there is no 565 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 4: consequence for gutting your team that is responsible for keeping 566 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 4: use digital platforms safe, If there's no consequence, then what 567 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 4: does that What message does that send to other platforms? 568 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 4: What message does that send to startups who might be 569 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 4: creating new platforms, how important the safety to them in 570 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 4: their design? So I think it's definitely on a collision course, 571 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 4: but maybe not as extreme as as Telegram, which is 572 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 4: on the. 573 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: Other end very good we're at a time we need 574 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: to end it there at Devika. Max, thank you very much. Okay, 575 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: that was awesome. It's all. It's all coming back to 576 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: me now. Max, I and I especially remember the drinks, 577 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: those really fancy drinks you and Rayhan got. What were 578 00:30:58,640 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: they called? After this? 579 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: That is one part that has not come back to me. 580 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: Jesus, apparently you had one too many of them. All right, now, 581 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: listen the thing I wanted to ask you about it 582 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: like a fabrication. No, no, it's it's true. I was 583 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: there for it. It was documented. There are pictures. So 584 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: Elon is now joking about buying MSNBC. The Twitter thing 585 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: started with the joke. 586 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 2: Max. 587 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 3: It's true. 588 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: And it's not clear to me that Comcast, which is 589 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: spinning off its cable companies cable networks into a separate company. 590 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: The idea is that both it's like the telecom part 591 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: and the media part will be worth more as two 592 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: different things. It's not clear they'd be willing to like 593 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 2: part with just like one of their cable channels. Of 594 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: course they own a bunch of different cable channels. But 595 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: as you said, I mean, I think in the world 596 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: of like corporate m and a like if someone makes 597 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 2: a huge offer, like they're gonna they're gonna look at it. 598 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 2: Elon I don't think has really been very serious about this, right, 599 00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 2: there's been. 600 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: A any sort of sense of what the dollar value 601 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: of this thing would be. 602 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 2: No, I have no idea, and I think it's there's 603 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: there would be like real questions about how much it's worth, 604 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: Like as a standalone thing, you know there are a 605 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: lot of fixed. 606 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: Costs to Cornaki come with it. 607 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: Well, you'd have to think that the khakis would be 608 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: part of the deal, and. 609 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: That's got to make it worth one hundred or two 610 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: hundred million. 611 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is like like a Twitter was 612 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: a business that Elon Musk understood well. He was a 613 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 2: longtime user. He loved the thing. 614 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: This just you don't think he's ever This feels like 615 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: a troll. 616 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: This feels like meme bait. Now, you know, he's done 617 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 2: stuff that seemed out there before. But I think for now, 618 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: like I'm looking this at this more as a bit 619 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: rather than a actual proposal. But I think it's something 620 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: we should like keep our eyes on because again, you 621 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: never know. You could also imagine him if he's serious 622 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 2: about about broadcast about owning a TV channel, Like, there 623 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: are a handful of other conservative networks you know that 624 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 2: that have been spun up over the past few years 625 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 2: that I'm sure would be you know who would be interested. 626 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 2: You could imagine him going after some kind of big name, 627 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: sort of left media outlet. Maybe it's not a TV station, 628 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: maybe maybe a struggling print magazine or something like that. 629 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: You know, there are a bunch of those, So I 630 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 2: don't know, Like, I don't think it's totally crazy. 631 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 3: He clearly likes media. 632 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: He got something out of his last media deal, and 633 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 2: now he owes Twitter. You could imagine maybe some synergies. 634 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: But I think it's probably pretty hard to operate MSNBC. 635 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: And I'm not an expert on the economics of cable television, 636 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to operate MSNBC as 637 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: a standalone thing that that's going to be outside of 638 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: the Musk's expertise. 639 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: I like, how serious you're taking this question, because you 640 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: know what, No, it's to your point, we would be 641 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: foolish to take anything positive in that sort of way, 642 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: in this case, in the form of a tweet as 643 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: merely a joke to be discarded because he's just he's 644 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: proven to us in the past that he's often deadly serious. 645 00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 3: I mean, there is. 646 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 2: Also the question of like creating a little bit of 647 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: news creating again, like Doge is gonna be hard, so 648 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: so and Elon Musk is kind of a master of 649 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 2: creating new storylines, just like Trump, right, like the ways Trump. 650 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,840 Speaker 2: You know, it's like the Trump presidency is like a 651 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 2: reality show, and and he's really good at like finding 652 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: things for people to focus on. 653 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,359 Speaker 3: So so maybe this is it. 654 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 2: But but again, it just feels like a lot if 655 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: it also feels a little derivative. 656 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 3: You know, the Onion is buying Info Wars. 657 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: It feels like a little bit of a like a 658 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 2: lame sequel slash competing Hollywood studios coming up with like 659 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 2: copycat stories like I don't know, I'm not into it yet. 660 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: Alrighty, fair enough, And Max, of course we need to 661 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: remind everybody again we have our brand new email address 662 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: for our listeners to ping us at what is the 663 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: address again, Max Ewoninc. 664 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 3: At Bloomberg dot net. 665 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 2: You can tell us what you can get the show 666 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 2: and tell us which departments the Doge should cut. We'll 667 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 2: pass it right on to Elon and we'll read it, 668 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 2: you know, on the show if it if it's funny. 669 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: Right, if it's funny, or if it's help well for 670 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: the dose two Max, good luck with that, Brian, that Turkey, Brian, 671 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, Happy Thanksgiving to you, Happy Thanksgiving to you, David. 672 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Masarrakas is 673 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: our editor and Rayhan Harmansi is our senior editor. The 674 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: idea for this very show also came from Rayhan. Blake 675 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: Maples handles engineering, and Emma Sanchez fact checks. Our supervising 676 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The Elan Inc. Theme is written 677 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: and performed by Takea Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiera. Brendan Francis 678 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the 679 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as always to 680 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 1: our supporters Joel Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. 681 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 682 00:35:51,120 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.