1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:22,396 --> 00:00:26,156 Speaker 2: It's July nineteen sixty one, an official ceremony at the 3 00:00:26,156 --> 00:00:30,436 Speaker 2: White House. President Kennedy stands at the microphone. Dark sued 4 00:00:30,676 --> 00:00:35,076 Speaker 2: white shirt, thin black tie. Next to him is a 5 00:00:35,116 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 2: second man, shorter, wide through the chest, large square head, 6 00:00:40,356 --> 00:00:44,116 Speaker 2: hair parted triumphantly just off the middle, a thicket of 7 00:00:44,196 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 2: decorations on the left breast of his uniform. 8 00:00:47,836 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 3: I want to express our great pleasure at the assumption 9 00:00:54,076 --> 00:00:55,916 Speaker 3: of this responsibility by General. 10 00:00:55,676 --> 00:00:58,636 Speaker 2: Le May Curtis Emerson LeMay. 11 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:03,036 Speaker 3: He was one of the or distinguished combat commanders in 12 00:01:03,076 --> 00:01:07,476 Speaker 3: World War Two. He played a most instrumental role in 13 00:01:07,556 --> 00:01:13,996 Speaker 3: developing who its present death. I pete as the great 14 00:01:14,036 --> 00:01:17,036 Speaker 3: shield of the United States in the free world. So, General, 15 00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:21,796 Speaker 3: you want to say that, speaking personally and also as president, 16 00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:24,916 Speaker 3: that it's a great pleasure to welcome you as the 17 00:01:25,036 --> 00:01:27,396 Speaker 3: new Chief of Staff the United States Air Force and 18 00:01:27,436 --> 00:01:28,756 Speaker 3: member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. 19 00:01:33,676 --> 00:01:36,556 Speaker 2: The old cliche says that history is written by the victors, 20 00:01:36,996 --> 00:01:39,596 Speaker 2: and that line of Kennedy's he was one of the 21 00:01:39,636 --> 00:01:43,756 Speaker 2: most distinguished combat commanders of World War II is exhibit A. 22 00:01:44,916 --> 00:01:48,116 Speaker 2: Distinguished refers to the events of nineteen forty five when 23 00:01:48,156 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 2: LeMay ordered a bombing campaign that resulted in the deaths 24 00:01:51,516 --> 00:01:55,236 Speaker 2: of half a million Japanese civilians. In a candid moment, 25 00:01:55,476 --> 00:01:58,716 Speaker 2: LeMay once told one of his subordinates, if we lose 26 00:01:58,756 --> 00:02:02,156 Speaker 2: this war, we'll be tried as war criminals, which is 27 00:02:02,196 --> 00:02:04,636 Speaker 2: almost certainly true. But they didn't lose. 28 00:02:05,316 --> 00:02:05,676 Speaker 4: They won. 29 00:02:07,156 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 2: After the war, LeMay joined the Strite Air Command Sack, 30 00:02:11,196 --> 00:02:14,756 Speaker 2: where he was responsible for most of America's nuclear arsenal 31 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:17,836 Speaker 2: at a time when war with the Soviet Union seemed imminent. 32 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 2: Then in nineteen sixty one, he became head of the 33 00:02:21,596 --> 00:02:25,836 Speaker 2: whole Air Force. Standing next to Kennedy on the podium. 34 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 5: I surprised. I appreciate very much they're taking a time 35 00:02:30,556 --> 00:02:33,876 Speaker 5: out from your busy schedule to participate them and this ceremony. 36 00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:40,156 Speaker 5: I'm sure you realize that a number beyond services, I've 37 00:02:40,196 --> 00:02:42,596 Speaker 5: become a Chief assaff as his service as the highest 38 00:02:42,596 --> 00:02:45,636 Speaker 5: honor that can come to him. 39 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:49,316 Speaker 2: LeMay didn't get tried as a war criminal. He got promoted. 40 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:58,756 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 41 00:02:58,956 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 2: my podcast about things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This is and 42 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:14,116 Speaker 2: final installment in my miniseries about Curtis le May and 43 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 2: the super weapon known as Napalm. I never intended to 44 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:22,516 Speaker 2: devote four episodes to this story. I was originally going 45 00:03:22,516 --> 00:03:25,996 Speaker 2: to do just one. Then one episode became two, and 46 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 2: two became three, and then I was at four because 47 00:03:29,076 --> 00:03:31,436 Speaker 2: I kept expecting the story to come to some kind 48 00:03:31,476 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 2: of appropriate resolution and it didn't. I mean, if you 49 00:03:36,716 --> 00:03:41,196 Speaker 2: kill half a million civilians, something should happen, shouldn't it. 50 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:49,716 Speaker 2: And then in the middle of everything, I went to 51 00:03:49,756 --> 00:03:53,356 Speaker 2: Tokyo for another reason entirely and decided to visit a 52 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:58,036 Speaker 2: little private museum off a side street, the only museum 53 00:03:58,036 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 2: in the world dedicated entirely to the bombing campaign that 54 00:04:01,396 --> 00:04:05,996 Speaker 2: burned Tokyo in nineteen forty five. And upstairs, in a 55 00:04:06,036 --> 00:04:09,356 Speaker 2: plain room with linoleum floors that looks like a public 56 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:14,316 Speaker 2: school classroom, there's a long scroll on the wall, beautiful 57 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:23,396 Speaker 2: Japanese calligraphy that broke my heart. 58 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 6: Sank. 59 00:04:35,796 --> 00:04:39,116 Speaker 2: The clear eyed military rationale for the fire bombing of 60 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:43,676 Speaker 2: Tokyo goes something like this. The United States had no 61 00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:48,156 Speaker 2: better option, nor did Japan. There was only one alternative 62 00:04:48,156 --> 00:04:50,316 Speaker 2: to le Maay's long summer of burning down the cities 63 00:04:50,356 --> 00:04:53,076 Speaker 2: of Japan. With napalm. That would have been a ground 64 00:04:53,076 --> 00:04:56,756 Speaker 2: invasion of Japan by American troops that fall, and that 65 00:04:56,796 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 2: would have been worse, far worse. 66 00:04:59,676 --> 00:05:03,396 Speaker 7: I actually gave a presentation in Tokyo about the incendiary 67 00:05:03,436 --> 00:05:07,316 Speaker 7: bombing of Tokyo to a Japanese audience, and at the 68 00:05:07,396 --> 00:05:09,956 Speaker 7: end of the presentation at one of the your Japanese 69 00:05:09,996 --> 00:05:12,276 Speaker 7: historians there stood up and said he said, in the end, 70 00:05:12,356 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 7: he said, we must thank you Americans for the firebombing 71 00:05:15,876 --> 00:05:16,996 Speaker 7: and the atomic bombs. 72 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:20,116 Speaker 2: This is the military historian Conrad Crane. 73 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:23,396 Speaker 7: That kind of took me aback, and then he explained, 74 00:05:23,436 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 7: he said, we would have surrendered eventually anyway, but he 75 00:05:27,796 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 7: said the impact of the massive firebombing campaign atomic bombs 76 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:33,236 Speaker 7: was that we surrendered in August. 77 00:05:33,716 --> 00:05:37,196 Speaker 2: No fire bombs and no atomic bombs, and the Japanese 78 00:05:37,196 --> 00:05:40,756 Speaker 2: don't surrender, and if they don't surrender, the Soviets invade, 79 00:05:41,076 --> 00:05:44,236 Speaker 2: and then the Americans invade and Japan gets carved up 80 00:05:44,516 --> 00:05:47,116 Speaker 2: just like Germany and the Korean Peninsula eventually were. 81 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:49,036 Speaker 7: And the other thing that would have happened is there 82 00:05:49,076 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 7: would have been millions of Japanese that would have starved 83 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:54,036 Speaker 7: to death in the winter because what happens is when 84 00:05:55,036 --> 00:05:57,596 Speaker 7: by surrendering on August, that gives MacArthur time to come 85 00:05:57,596 --> 00:06:02,516 Speaker 7: in with his occupation forces and actually feed. 86 00:06:02,356 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 2: Japan General Douglas MacArthur, the supreme Allied commander in the Pacific. 87 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:10,396 Speaker 2: He was the one who accepted the Jetjapanese Emperor's surrender. 88 00:06:10,996 --> 00:06:13,636 Speaker 7: I mean, that's one of MacArthur's great successes, bringing in 89 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:16,316 Speaker 7: massive amount of foods to avoid starvation in the winter 90 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:17,396 Speaker 7: of nineteen forty five. 91 00:06:18,436 --> 00:06:22,156 Speaker 2: Much later, in nineteen sixty four, the Japanese government accorded 92 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:25,316 Speaker 2: le May one of its highest honors, the Grand Cordon 93 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 2: of the Order of the Rising Sun, for his help 94 00:06:27,556 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 2: rebuilding their air force after the war. There was a 95 00:06:30,716 --> 00:06:33,636 Speaker 2: debate in the Japanese parliament about whether the award was 96 00:06:33,636 --> 00:06:35,956 Speaker 2: a good idea, but none of it centered on his 97 00:06:36,076 --> 00:06:40,396 Speaker 2: campaign to burn Japanese cities with napalm. The Japanese government 98 00:06:40,596 --> 00:06:47,716 Speaker 2: had moved on. Everyone moved on. Remember Hoyt Hoddel from 99 00:06:47,756 --> 00:06:51,396 Speaker 2: the second episode in this series. He's the MIT scientist 100 00:06:51,516 --> 00:06:54,396 Speaker 2: Washington brought in to manage the bomb bakeoff. To find 101 00:06:54,436 --> 00:06:57,556 Speaker 2: the very best possible fire bomb to use against the Japanese. 102 00:06:58,756 --> 00:07:01,516 Speaker 2: Hoddle put together a committee of the biggest names in 103 00:07:01,596 --> 00:07:06,076 Speaker 2: chemistry to create the world's greatest incendiary And after the 104 00:07:06,116 --> 00:07:07,636 Speaker 2: war they scattered. 105 00:07:09,116 --> 00:07:14,036 Speaker 8: Amazing how fast people wanted to get out. They were 106 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 8: fed up on war. 107 00:07:17,636 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 2: Fire was still Hoddle's passion, but not burning things down, 108 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 2: not anymore. Now his passion became stopping things from burning down. 109 00:07:27,076 --> 00:07:34,236 Speaker 8: I was so saturated with fire as a weapon of destruction. 110 00:07:35,756 --> 00:07:40,196 Speaker 8: When I was asked to be on a peacetime fire 111 00:07:40,316 --> 00:07:46,036 Speaker 8: research committee by the Army, I was happy to say yes. 112 00:07:47,516 --> 00:07:50,596 Speaker 2: The mandate of the fire Research Committee was to prevent 113 00:07:50,676 --> 00:07:56,156 Speaker 2: an unquoting large urban fires and forest fires. Hoddle ran 114 00:07:56,196 --> 00:08:00,756 Speaker 2: that committee for eleven years until his retirement. And what 115 00:08:00,796 --> 00:08:03,676 Speaker 2: about Louis Feezer. He was the winner of the bakeoff, 116 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:07,236 Speaker 2: the co inventor of napalm. He went back to Harvard 117 00:08:07,476 --> 00:08:11,716 Speaker 2: and resumed his duties, trained the next generation of American chemists, 118 00:08:12,196 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 2: wrote the definitive College Chemistry textbook with his wife. As 119 00:08:17,356 --> 00:08:21,396 Speaker 2: for his fellow inventor, Eb Hirschberg, the wizard of the laboratory, 120 00:08:21,996 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 2: Hirshburg went to work for the Shearing Corporation, a pharmaceutical 121 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 2: company in New Jersey. 122 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 9: My father was not a violent person, he's a pacifist. 123 00:08:30,556 --> 00:08:31,596 Speaker 9: He didn't believe in war. 124 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:32,076 Speaker 7: Uh. 125 00:08:32,356 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 9: I'm quite sure it is to be avoided. 126 00:08:35,396 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 2: Robert Hirschberg, Eb's sun also a scientist. He would call 127 00:08:40,076 --> 00:08:42,516 Speaker 2: his father every evening and they would talk about their 128 00:08:42,556 --> 00:08:46,596 Speaker 2: day in the laboratory. What would your father have when 129 00:08:46,596 --> 00:08:49,596 Speaker 2: he looked across his entire career, what would he have 130 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:52,116 Speaker 2: considered his finest accomplishment. 131 00:08:52,276 --> 00:08:55,316 Speaker 9: Without doubt, I think it would be prednisone and prinis 132 00:08:55,316 --> 00:08:57,556 Speaker 9: alone pregmozone. 133 00:08:57,876 --> 00:09:01,996 Speaker 2: It's an anti inflammatory agent and amino suppressant, one of 134 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 2: the most widely prescribed drugs in the world. I don't 135 00:09:05,076 --> 00:09:07,276 Speaker 2: know how to quantify how many lives have been saved 136 00:09:07,276 --> 00:09:10,796 Speaker 2: by that drug, hundreds of thousands. It was a crucial 137 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:13,636 Speaker 2: part of the very first breakthrough in drug therapy for cancer, 138 00:09:14,396 --> 00:09:17,876 Speaker 2: Amo Freireich's defeat of childhood leukemia in the nineteen sixties, 139 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:23,836 Speaker 2: a combination therapy using methachrekx eight six mp vin Christine 140 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:33,516 Speaker 2: and prednozone. Eb Hirschberg led the team that developed it 141 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:38,036 Speaker 2: was prednazone, Hirschberg's atonement for napalm. Like Hoyt Hoddle's work 142 00:09:38,076 --> 00:09:42,436 Speaker 2: on the Fire Research Committee. Maybe, but no one seems 143 00:09:42,476 --> 00:09:47,236 Speaker 2: to have discussed it or considered it. A few years ago, 144 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:51,476 Speaker 2: the historian Robert nir went searching for a definitive account 145 00:09:51,716 --> 00:09:54,836 Speaker 2: of the birth of the world's most powerful incendiary. 146 00:09:54,916 --> 00:09:58,356 Speaker 10: So I started looking, and it was with a kind 147 00:09:58,356 --> 00:10:01,916 Speaker 10: of growing sense of disbelief that I discovered that actually 148 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:04,676 Speaker 10: there was no history of napalm. And the more research 149 00:10:04,756 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 10: that I did on it, the more I discovered that actually, 150 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:09,996 Speaker 10: really it was true. There was no not even an 151 00:10:10,116 --> 00:10:12,876 Speaker 10: article that was There was no like even a sort 152 00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:16,316 Speaker 10: of academic journal article that was this is a comprehensive 153 00:10:16,356 --> 00:10:17,236 Speaker 10: history of napalm. 154 00:10:17,676 --> 00:10:20,916 Speaker 2: Robert Near would go to the Widner Research Library at Harvard, 155 00:10:21,076 --> 00:10:23,916 Speaker 2: one of the great libraries in the world. He would 156 00:10:23,956 --> 00:10:27,676 Speaker 2: see shelves of books on atomic weapons, the glamorous bomb, 157 00:10:27,916 --> 00:10:31,396 Speaker 2: built a great expense by the smartest people in the world. 158 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:36,756 Speaker 10: But this particular weapon, there was no history background about 159 00:10:36,756 --> 00:10:37,396 Speaker 10: it at all. 160 00:10:37,916 --> 00:10:41,396 Speaker 2: He would end up writing that history himself. It's called Napalm, 161 00:10:41,476 --> 00:10:46,076 Speaker 2: an American Biography. What's even stranger, of course, was that 162 00:10:46,076 --> 00:10:48,236 Speaker 2: he was looking for a history of napalm in the 163 00:10:48,276 --> 00:10:52,356 Speaker 2: Harvard library and didn't find anything. Because Harvard was where 164 00:10:52,476 --> 00:10:57,276 Speaker 2: napalm was invented. Robert Neir took me to the place 165 00:10:57,356 --> 00:10:58,956 Speaker 2: on campus where napalm was born. 166 00:10:59,636 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 10: We think this is the converse laboratory right here, which 167 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:06,076 Speaker 10: is where they did the initial experiments in the basement 168 00:11:06,196 --> 00:11:09,076 Speaker 10: window wells with Jeldenson. 169 00:11:09,636 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: We're looking at them. 170 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:13,396 Speaker 2: I assumed there would be some indication of which of 171 00:11:13,436 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 2: the labs along the basement hallway have belonged to Louis Feeser, 172 00:11:17,396 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 2: But no. We peered in one window after another and 173 00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:26,076 Speaker 2: had to guess. It's all very chemical lab here, like 174 00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 2: a zillion pipes and the ceiling. There don't really window 175 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:33,236 Speaker 2: wells on this side. No, so it is this side. 176 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:36,196 Speaker 10: Were close, assuming that it hasn't ever been, you know, 177 00:11:36,316 --> 00:11:38,676 Speaker 10: dramatically changed. But I think we're quite close in the 178 00:11:38,716 --> 00:11:40,676 Speaker 10: spiritual sense at least absolutely. 179 00:11:40,876 --> 00:11:41,076 Speaker 8: Yeah. 180 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:47,516 Speaker 2: There are long lists of things. Harvard is eager to 181 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:52,556 Speaker 2: take credit for the transgenic mouse, nuclear magnetic resonance imaging, 182 00:11:53,036 --> 00:11:58,236 Speaker 2: the pacemaker defibrillators, all important, But on the weapon that 183 00:11:58,236 --> 00:12:00,516 Speaker 2: played a decisive role in the biggest war of the 184 00:12:00,516 --> 00:12:03,996 Speaker 2: twentieth century that burned close to half a million Japanese 185 00:12:03,996 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 2: alive in the summer of nineteen forty five, it's not 186 00:12:07,356 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 2: on the list. It's not even a plaque. And at Harvard, 187 00:12:12,076 --> 00:12:15,276 Speaker 2: I'll point out, they'll put a name on anything. There 188 00:12:15,276 --> 00:12:17,636 Speaker 2: are multiple buildings at Harvard named in honor of the 189 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:21,636 Speaker 2: Sackler family, whose drug company gave the world OxyContin. So 190 00:12:21,716 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 2: it's not like Harvard is squeamish just about napalm. Napalm 191 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:31,636 Speaker 2: has simply disappeared. And that is the final of napalm's 192 00:12:31,676 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 2: many crimes, because it didn't actually disappear. Quite the opposite. 193 00:12:45,436 --> 00:12:48,036 Speaker 2: Five years after the end of the Second World War, 194 00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:52,236 Speaker 2: after the surrender of Japan, the communist back government of 195 00:12:52,236 --> 00:12:57,276 Speaker 2: North Korea invaded South Korea June twenty fifth, nineteen fifty. 196 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:01,876 Speaker 2: The United Nations condemned the invasion and responded with a 197 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:05,956 Speaker 2: show of force led by the United States. And what 198 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 2: was the strategy adopted by the US Air Force in Korea. 199 00:13:09,756 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 2: Basically the strategy pioneered by Curtis le May over Japan. 200 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:17,796 Speaker 2: Firebomb the North Koreans with napalm until they surrender. 201 00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 3: Napalm again, how does the living engines. 202 00:13:24,876 --> 00:13:26,636 Speaker 2: This is a newsreel the Navy put out in the 203 00:13:26,636 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 2: middle of the war called this is Korea, directed by 204 00:13:29,796 --> 00:13:31,076 Speaker 2: the legendary John Ford. 205 00:13:32,516 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 11: Fry them out, burn them out, cook them, fry them, 206 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 11: burn them, cook them Korea in three sentences. 207 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:47,436 Speaker 2: If you go through oral history archives, you'll find countless 208 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:51,276 Speaker 2: interviews with pilots who remember what that bombing campaign was like. 209 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:55,596 Speaker 12: Oh, a lot of napalm dropped, which it was supposed 210 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:56,356 Speaker 12: to be top secret. 211 00:13:57,076 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 2: The flight crews came up with the idea of strapping 212 00:13:59,596 --> 00:14:03,076 Speaker 2: canisters of napalm to wooden pallets, then pushing them out 213 00:14:03,076 --> 00:14:05,796 Speaker 2: the back of the airplane on rollers. 214 00:14:05,716 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 12: And then the parachutes would open up the stone of 215 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:11,796 Speaker 12: descent to where you were trying to drop it. 216 00:14:12,676 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 2: This is a pilot named Robert Billion, interviewed in nineteen 217 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:18,716 Speaker 2: ninety five for the Rutgers Oral History Archive. 218 00:14:19,276 --> 00:14:22,476 Speaker 12: What they did. They went after personnel centers where they 219 00:14:22,996 --> 00:14:27,436 Speaker 12: congregated the troops in North Korea when they come over, 220 00:14:27,476 --> 00:14:31,156 Speaker 12: and they would let go with thirty six times fifty 221 00:14:31,396 --> 00:14:35,996 Speaker 12: fifty gallon drops, and they figured they killed thousands North 222 00:14:36,076 --> 00:14:39,796 Speaker 12: Korean not burning them, they suffocated them because it burned 223 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:41,516 Speaker 12: all the oxygen up in the mediate area. 224 00:14:43,036 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 2: Napalm was engineered to burn down Japanese houses, which had 225 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:49,876 Speaker 2: allowed for the pretense that it was intended to destroy buildings, 226 00:14:50,276 --> 00:14:54,956 Speaker 2: not people. In Korea. That pretense was dropped. It turned 227 00:14:54,956 --> 00:14:57,316 Speaker 2: out napalm was very good at destroying people. 228 00:14:58,236 --> 00:15:04,996 Speaker 13: The North Koreans were such vicious enemies and so brutal, 229 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 13: but we took care of them, and power in that 230 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:12,516 Speaker 13: war was predominant. 231 00:15:13,116 --> 00:15:16,636 Speaker 2: This is Bill Sinclair, Korean War pilot, interviewed in two 232 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 2: thousand and four by the Library of Congress's Veterans History Project. 233 00:15:21,356 --> 00:15:24,556 Speaker 2: I will warn you the story he tells is not pleasant. 234 00:15:25,396 --> 00:15:33,796 Speaker 13: I remember a particular mission when we caught a mixed 235 00:15:34,036 --> 00:15:41,036 Speaker 13: Chinese and North Korean division in the open, and we 236 00:15:41,276 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 13: just attacked them with napalm, and we killed hundreds and 237 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:49,396 Speaker 13: hundreds of Chinese and North Korean soldiers. I couldn't see 238 00:15:49,436 --> 00:15:52,556 Speaker 13: how they could possibly stand in the midst of all 239 00:15:52,596 --> 00:16:00,356 Speaker 13: this conflagration. I remember distinctly one soldier standing under a 240 00:16:00,396 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 13: little tree, and around him was just devastation. Bodies everywhere. 241 00:16:06,956 --> 00:16:09,076 Speaker 2: And here's an interview with a pilot named Leonard Lee 242 00:16:09,236 --> 00:16:12,036 Speaker 2: Conia from the Korean War Legacy Foundation. 243 00:16:12,756 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 4: But it worked, it worked well. 244 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:19,076 Speaker 14: The burning, yeah, yeah, it'll just hit and then it 245 00:16:19,196 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 14: just spreads. Well, we were close enough that when we 246 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:25,476 Speaker 14: call it, you could feel the heat from the from 247 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 14: the nap bomb and if you get too close. You 248 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:31,356 Speaker 14: don't have to be right in it, but if you 249 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:33,516 Speaker 14: get too close it burns the oxygen out of the air. 250 00:16:34,076 --> 00:16:34,796 Speaker 15: You can't breathe. 251 00:16:38,076 --> 00:16:41,916 Speaker 2: These stories go on and on. There's one so graphic 252 00:16:41,956 --> 00:16:44,516 Speaker 2: I'm not going to play it for you. It's about 253 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:47,876 Speaker 2: a US pilot carrying a load of napalm who crashes 254 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:50,396 Speaker 2: before he can drop it on someone else, and his 255 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:53,516 Speaker 2: fellow airman run up to the crash site and can 256 00:16:53,516 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 2: only watch as he burns to death. In the end, 257 00:16:58,756 --> 00:17:02,596 Speaker 2: the Air Force in Korea ran out of targets. Literally, 258 00:17:03,596 --> 00:17:06,436 Speaker 2: they had nothing left to bomb because they'd burned down 259 00:17:06,596 --> 00:17:09,756 Speaker 2: and bombed out virtually everything that could be burned down 260 00:17:09,996 --> 00:17:10,796 Speaker 2: a bombed out. 261 00:17:15,476 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 7: The destruction on a North Korean the urban structure is massive. 262 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 2: Historian Conrad Crane says the consequences of that bombing campaign 263 00:17:25,596 --> 00:17:26,956 Speaker 2: were enormous. 264 00:17:26,996 --> 00:17:29,156 Speaker 7: And in some extent that's I think a legacy we're 265 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 7: dealing with today because part of the motivation for the 266 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 7: North Korean pursuit of nuclear weapons is to have some 267 00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:38,036 Speaker 7: kind of deterrent to make sure that never happens again. 268 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:40,756 Speaker 2: We've heard a lot in the West about how the 269 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:46,436 Speaker 2: North Koreans are duplicitous, distrustful, irrational, secretive. Not so much 270 00:17:46,476 --> 00:17:49,996 Speaker 2: about how in three short years the United States reduced 271 00:17:49,996 --> 00:17:53,956 Speaker 2: their country to an ash heap. But then again, we've 272 00:17:53,996 --> 00:17:56,956 Speaker 2: never talked much about napalm and the Korean War. We've 273 00:17:56,956 --> 00:18:00,156 Speaker 2: never talked much about the Korean War period. It was 274 00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 2: all pushed aside. In fact, the most significant monument of 275 00:18:04,596 --> 00:18:13,996 Speaker 2: that war was probably a television show, the sitcom Mash. 276 00:18:14,396 --> 00:18:18,276 Speaker 2: Mash ran for eleven seasons on CBS nineteen seventy two 277 00:18:18,516 --> 00:18:22,756 Speaker 2: to nineteen eighty three. It was about a mobile medical 278 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:25,796 Speaker 2: unit on the front lines of the Korean War. If 279 00:18:25,836 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 2: you're old enough, you'll remember the names of the characters, 280 00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:33,596 Speaker 2: Hawkeye Pierce, Colonel Potter, Trapper, John Rader, O'Reilly hot Lips, 281 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:37,876 Speaker 2: Hulihan Clinger. It was one of the most remarkable television 282 00:18:37,916 --> 00:18:44,116 Speaker 2: shows in history. Funny, dark, moving. So what does Mash 283 00:18:44,196 --> 00:18:47,996 Speaker 2: have to say about napalm? I wondered very little, it 284 00:18:48,036 --> 00:18:51,996 Speaker 2: turns out, with one exception. The most famous Smash episode 285 00:18:52,036 --> 00:18:58,516 Speaker 2: of all, the series finale, February twenty eighth, nineteen eighty three, Goodbye, Farewell, 286 00:18:58,556 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 2: and Amen, was watched by one hundred and six million Americans, 287 00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:06,476 Speaker 2: the highest rated non sports television event in history. 288 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:11,116 Speaker 1: The night the last episode was shown, we watched it 289 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:13,916 Speaker 1: on a big screen at the studio, and then we 290 00:19:13,956 --> 00:19:15,836 Speaker 1: went out to dinner to celebrate. 291 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:20,716 Speaker 2: I talked to Alan Alda about it. He played Hawkeye, 292 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:22,716 Speaker 2: the show's central character. 293 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:28,276 Speaker 1: And on the way to the restaurant, Loretta Stwood was 294 00:19:28,316 --> 00:19:30,356 Speaker 1: in the car with me, and I said, Loretta, look, 295 00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:35,036 Speaker 1: the streets are empty, and it suddenly dawned on us 296 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:38,436 Speaker 1: that a lot of people were probably home watching the 297 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:41,996 Speaker 1: show at that time. And what I read in the 298 00:19:41,996 --> 00:19:44,756 Speaker 1: paper the next day was that in New York the 299 00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:48,396 Speaker 1: waterworks were threatened because everybody went to the bathroom at 300 00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:50,476 Speaker 1: the same time during the commercial break. 301 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 2: The final episode runs two hours. It is beautiful and moving. 302 00:19:57,116 --> 00:19:59,996 Speaker 2: I remember where I was when I watched it, packed 303 00:20:00,036 --> 00:20:02,596 Speaker 2: into the basement TV room at my college in Toronto 304 00:20:03,076 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 2: with what must have been one hundred other people. So 305 00:20:08,036 --> 00:20:10,956 Speaker 2: after all those years, I went back and watched it 306 00:20:10,996 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 2: again because I remembered that this was the episode that 307 00:20:14,556 --> 00:20:18,196 Speaker 2: finally dealt with Napon. It comes just after the halfway 308 00:20:18,196 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 2: point in the show, at the one hour and seven 309 00:20:20,556 --> 00:20:21,156 Speaker 2: minute mark. 310 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:26,836 Speaker 9: Colonel look at that sunset. 311 00:20:27,796 --> 00:20:30,796 Speaker 11: What a beautiful ending for a beautiful day. 312 00:20:31,396 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 2: Corporal Clinger is looking up at the sky when Colonel Potter, 313 00:20:35,036 --> 00:20:37,676 Speaker 2: the Mash unit's commanding officer, walks by. 314 00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 11: Yeah, it'd be a nice sunset of it were setting 315 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 11: over there. What do you mean? Ever since I've been around, 316 00:20:44,436 --> 00:20:47,836 Speaker 11: the sun's always set in the west. And what's that? 317 00:20:48,556 --> 00:20:50,596 Speaker 11: What saw that same kind of glow in the yard 318 00:20:50,676 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 11: end forest? Next day? There wasn't any forest left. You 319 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:56,476 Speaker 11: better get on the phone, die car. That fire is 320 00:20:56,516 --> 00:20:57,996 Speaker 11: headed this way. We're headed out. 321 00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:02,116 Speaker 2: Klinger runs back to the barracks. Potter stands and watches 322 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:05,996 Speaker 2: the sky. We see the fire start to rage, rabbits 323 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:07,036 Speaker 2: running for safety. 324 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:10,756 Speaker 11: It was started by incendiary bombs. It's coming straight at us. 325 00:21:10,836 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 15: Butt out. 326 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:16,036 Speaker 10: All personnel but out. 327 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:21,276 Speaker 2: The mass Unit has to evacuate because of a nearby 328 00:21:21,356 --> 00:21:25,156 Speaker 2: napalm attack. I asked Alan Alda about that plot point 329 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:28,476 Speaker 2: in the show. He directed the episode and was one 330 00:21:28,516 --> 00:21:29,476 Speaker 2: of its writers. 331 00:21:29,756 --> 00:21:30,196 Speaker 1: I had a. 332 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:35,276 Speaker 2: Very specific question with that episode, and that is when 333 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:40,316 Speaker 2: you have to evacuate the camp because of the fire. Yeah, 334 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:45,236 Speaker 2: from vincendier bombs. It's left unstated whose bombs they are. 335 00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: I got a call on a Saturday morning that a 336 00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:53,036 Speaker 1: fire had raged through the canyon where we were shooting 337 00:21:53,076 --> 00:21:56,036 Speaker 1: and the whole shed had burned down. So I put 338 00:21:56,076 --> 00:22:01,756 Speaker 1: the phone down and calmly went about writing what we 339 00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:04,036 Speaker 1: called the bugout. I think they called it a bug 340 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,116 Speaker 1: out in those days. When the mass unit had to 341 00:22:06,156 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: move and we moved to another location, so I had 342 00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 1: to put a fire into the script to justify the move, 343 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 1: but I forgot what the justification was was that a 344 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:26,076 Speaker 1: bomb had caused the fire. 345 00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 2: Scendiary bombs. Radar says, there's a fire on the way 346 00:22:30,396 --> 00:22:31,796 Speaker 2: from incendiary bombs. 347 00:22:32,556 --> 00:22:35,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you wonder which side they're from. Well, it 348 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 1: kind of doesn't matter. 349 00:22:36,676 --> 00:22:44,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's right, absolutely right. The great moral innovation of 350 00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:48,956 Speaker 2: MASH was that it spoke out against war without taking sides. 351 00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,236 Speaker 2: But all I could think about is that this show 352 00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:55,396 Speaker 2: is what's left of America's memory of the Korean War. 353 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 2: And when MASH finally comes around to mentioning napalm, the 354 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:03,756 Speaker 2: weapon that reduced North Korea to ashes, it gets history 355 00:23:03,796 --> 00:23:09,916 Speaker 2: exactly backwards. It has Americans as Napalm's victims, not the Koreans, 356 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:13,596 Speaker 2: and the show doesn't mention where the napalm came from 357 00:23:13,756 --> 00:23:16,276 Speaker 2: as if it could as easily have come from anywhere, 358 00:23:16,916 --> 00:23:19,396 Speaker 2: when in truth it could only have come from the 359 00:23:19,476 --> 00:23:23,876 Speaker 2: US Air Force dropping their Harvard engineered payloads from high 360 00:23:23,876 --> 00:23:30,156 Speaker 2: in the sky. Later in the episode, Colonel Potter returns 361 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 2: to the mash camp after it's been destroyed by napalm. 362 00:23:34,516 --> 00:23:37,996 Speaker 2: The MASH unit is packing up, The doctors and nurses 363 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:38,996 Speaker 2: are all going home. 364 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 16: It is now two PIM. In exactly eight hours, the 365 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:47,676 Speaker 16: Korean War will be officially over. It's a time for 366 00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:49,516 Speaker 16: a summing up, and these are the most up to 367 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:52,076 Speaker 16: date figures we have. The cost of the war to 368 00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:55,356 Speaker 16: the United States has been placed at twenty two billion dollars. 369 00:23:56,956 --> 00:23:58,836 Speaker 15: Oh, look at me, I only get three hundred a month. 370 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:02,276 Speaker 2: Potter goes one last time to the place they had 371 00:24:02,356 --> 00:24:05,796 Speaker 2: lived for so many years and wanders among the ashes. 372 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:13,196 Speaker 2: Wreckage is still smoking. Potter takes off his helmet and 373 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:16,876 Speaker 2: looks around in shock. He bends over, picks up a 374 00:24:16,876 --> 00:24:18,996 Speaker 2: blackened bottle, stands up again. 375 00:24:21,076 --> 00:24:22,276 Speaker 11: Okay, let's get to work. 376 00:24:26,516 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 2: That's it, We're done, let's move on. I was one 377 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 2: of millions of viewers who choked up at that moment, 378 00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:39,596 Speaker 2: But if I were North Korean, I would have thrown 379 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:57,116 Speaker 2: a brick at the television. General Curtis LeMay disapproved of 380 00:24:57,116 --> 00:25:01,196 Speaker 2: the way the Pentagon fought the war in Korea. He 381 00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:04,036 Speaker 2: was in charge of the Strategic Air Command by that point, 382 00:25:04,516 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 2: a step removed from day to day control of the war. 383 00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 2: But they were using his tactic and his warhorse to 384 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:15,276 Speaker 2: be twenty nine, along with his incendiary weapon of choice, napon. 385 00:25:16,476 --> 00:25:20,396 Speaker 2: So he had opinions. He thought the whole business on 386 00:25:20,556 --> 00:25:23,676 Speaker 2: the Korean Peninsula dragged on for far too long. 387 00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:29,676 Speaker 15: Going in the war as a serious business, a serious decision. 388 00:25:31,076 --> 00:25:33,716 Speaker 15: If you have a responsibility for doing it, you better 389 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:39,276 Speaker 15: buy God makes them careful evaluation before you come to 390 00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,476 Speaker 15: the conclusion that war is the illness solution to your problems. 391 00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:46,316 Speaker 2: This is le May in retirement, holding forth on how 392 00:25:46,316 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 2: he thought the Korean War ought to have been handled. 393 00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:52,196 Speaker 15: I once you come to bus solusion that you'd better 394 00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:55,796 Speaker 15: be ready to go all the way. It's im moral 395 00:25:55,956 --> 00:25:58,836 Speaker 15: not to use too much if you have the capability 396 00:25:58,836 --> 00:26:04,996 Speaker 15: of winning, and winning rapidly because you saved life, property, destruction, suffering, 397 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:06,716 Speaker 15: and the quicker you're going to. 398 00:26:06,756 --> 00:26:11,556 Speaker 2: End the war cold blooded, hyperrational very Curtis to May, 399 00:26:12,236 --> 00:26:15,476 Speaker 2: and he thought the Pentagon botched it in Korea, dragged 400 00:26:15,516 --> 00:26:18,556 Speaker 2: it out too long, didn't come in hard and fast enough. 401 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:22,356 Speaker 15: So we kind of slipped the note under the door 402 00:26:22,396 --> 00:26:25,636 Speaker 15: under the Pentagon and said, look, why don't we well 403 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 15: burned down four or five of those towns up in 404 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:31,556 Speaker 15: North Korea, and I mean, they'll stopped this nonsense, only 405 00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 15: mean business. And the answer came back under the door. 406 00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:38,996 Speaker 15: This is too horrible. He knock off a bunch of 407 00:26:38,996 --> 00:26:40,796 Speaker 15: women and children, non combatants. 408 00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:41,796 Speaker 4: Too horrible. 409 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 2: The Pentagon couldn't stomach it. Now there are one hundred 410 00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 2: ways to tell the story of the Korean War. This 411 00:26:49,996 --> 00:26:53,716 Speaker 2: is the Curtis le May version. The military ignored his suggestion, 412 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:57,076 Speaker 2: and so what should have been an intense summer fire 413 00:26:57,076 --> 00:26:59,996 Speaker 2: bombing campaign stretched out over many years. 414 00:27:00,556 --> 00:27:04,076 Speaker 15: We burned down every town in North Korea and South 415 00:27:04,156 --> 00:27:09,076 Speaker 15: Korea too, every one of them. Now, during all this time, 416 00:27:09,196 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 15: and what we do kill off twenty percent of the 417 00:27:11,236 --> 00:27:16,716 Speaker 15: Korean population through direct casualties of war, are indirect due 418 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:22,716 Speaker 15: to exposure, disease and malnutrition and so forth. Now, over 419 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:26,396 Speaker 15: a period of four and a half years, all of 420 00:27:26,396 --> 00:27:29,356 Speaker 15: these highly moral people are willing to kill off twenty 421 00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:32,076 Speaker 15: percent of the Korean population over this period of time. 422 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:35,516 Speaker 15: But it's immoral to kill off a few people to 423 00:27:35,596 --> 00:27:39,676 Speaker 15: start with to save life, property and suffering. In the 424 00:27:39,716 --> 00:27:44,356 Speaker 15: long run, that's im moral kill a few people to 425 00:27:44,356 --> 00:27:44,876 Speaker 15: prevent that. 426 00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:53,916 Speaker 2: Curtis the May on his high horse. If you spend 427 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:56,316 Speaker 2: enough time with le May, you start to see things 428 00:27:56,356 --> 00:28:00,116 Speaker 2: his way. Yes, Japan was better off for being fire bummed. 429 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:04,476 Speaker 2: It spared them starvation in the Soviets. Yes, and maybe 430 00:28:04,476 --> 00:28:06,876 Speaker 2: a summer of intense pain in Korea would have made 431 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:08,956 Speaker 2: more sense than dragging things out of a four years. 432 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:12,196 Speaker 2: There's a reason LeMay rose as far and fast as 433 00:28:12,196 --> 00:28:15,196 Speaker 2: he did in the US military. He could be awfully 434 00:28:15,236 --> 00:28:19,036 Speaker 2: persuasive when he needed to be. But then comes Vietnam, 435 00:28:19,636 --> 00:28:21,796 Speaker 2: and what does LeMay want the Air Force to do? 436 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:24,956 Speaker 2: More napalm, more bombing. 437 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:29,236 Speaker 8: Military police contain the crowd, but clashes soon break out. 438 00:28:29,596 --> 00:28:32,356 Speaker 8: Federal Marshall's arrest several who attempt to break through the 439 00:28:32,396 --> 00:28:33,396 Speaker 8: protective line. 440 00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:36,556 Speaker 2: There were anti war protests in the streets about the 441 00:28:36,556 --> 00:28:40,036 Speaker 2: Air Force's use of napalm and Vietnam. From his laboratory 442 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:43,556 Speaker 2: at Harvard, the chemist Louis Feeser sent a horrified letter 443 00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:47,796 Speaker 2: to President Nixon, it seems to me desirable. The co 444 00:28:47,876 --> 00:28:51,436 Speaker 2: inventor of napalm wrote to try to promote an international 445 00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:56,036 Speaker 2: agreement to outlaw further use of napalm or napalm type munitions. 446 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:00,876 Speaker 2: LeMay would have none of it. In his memoirs, published 447 00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:04,076 Speaker 2: just before his retirement in nineteen sixty five, he wrote 448 00:29:04,156 --> 00:29:08,196 Speaker 2: this about how to defeat North Vietnam. Quote. My solution 449 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:10,916 Speaker 2: to the problem would be to tell them, frankly, that 450 00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 2: they've got to draw in their horns and stop their regression, 451 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:21,556 Speaker 2: or we're going to bomb them back into the stone age. 452 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:23,636 Speaker 2: Le Maay was saying the same thing in the nineteen 453 00:29:23,716 --> 00:29:27,116 Speaker 2: sixties about Vietnam that he did in the nineteen fifties 454 00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:31,796 Speaker 2: about Korea and the nineteen forties about Japan. Heavy bombing 455 00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:36,036 Speaker 2: could lead to unconditional surrender, and unconditional surrenders save lives 456 00:29:36,036 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 2: in the long run, even though, of course, the great 457 00:29:39,276 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 2: lesson of Vietnam was that bombing didn't work, that air 458 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:46,076 Speaker 2: power could not defeat a determined guerrilla force in an 459 00:29:46,156 --> 00:29:51,116 Speaker 2: underdeveloped country. Le May was a problem solver, but he 460 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:54,996 Speaker 2: could not conceive of solutions that did not involve bombs 461 00:29:55,596 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 2: and airplanes. Remember, what le May wrote about seeing his 462 00:29:59,676 --> 00:30:04,956 Speaker 2: first airplane as a little boy in Ohio. Suddenly in 463 00:30:05,036 --> 00:30:08,476 Speaker 2: the air above me appeared a flying machine. It came 464 00:30:08,516 --> 00:30:11,756 Speaker 2: from nowhere. There it was, and I wanted to catch it. 465 00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:19,716 Speaker 2: And then he goes on, children can muster enormous strength 466 00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:24,476 Speaker 2: in ideal and idea, in all their effort to grasp 467 00:30:24,516 --> 00:30:28,036 Speaker 2: the trophy they desire. And nobody was holding me back. 468 00:30:28,876 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 2: No one was standing closed to say, Look, you're just 469 00:30:31,796 --> 00:30:34,996 Speaker 2: a little child. That airplane is away up there in 470 00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:37,636 Speaker 2: the air, and no matter how fast you run, you 471 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 2: can't keep up with it. You can't reach high enough 472 00:30:40,396 --> 00:30:46,596 Speaker 2: to seize it. Little Curtis ran across neighbors, backyards, vacant lots, 473 00:30:47,036 --> 00:30:54,556 Speaker 2: down sidewalks, then it was gone. It's wonderful sound and 474 00:30:54,636 --> 00:30:58,436 Speaker 2: force and the freakish illusion of the thing, a thing 475 00:30:58,756 --> 00:31:08,836 Speaker 2: made of wood and metal piercing the air, that in 476 00:31:08,876 --> 00:31:12,916 Speaker 2: fact satuation carried LeMay all the way from working class 477 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:16,356 Speaker 2: Columbus to the command of the US Air Force. But 478 00:31:16,476 --> 00:31:21,116 Speaker 2: leaders need at a certain point to move beyond their infatuations. 479 00:31:21,996 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 2: And the great tragedy of Curtis LeMay is that he 480 00:31:25,236 --> 00:31:25,556 Speaker 2: could not. 481 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 15: I hate this word strategy. 482 00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:33,596 Speaker 2: That's le May in nineteen seventy one. By strategy, he meant, 483 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 2: all of those things that you do when you're not 484 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 2: dropping bombs from a plane. 485 00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:42,836 Speaker 15: Sure you should do some planning, and you should do 486 00:31:42,956 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 15: some thinking, lots. 487 00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:45,156 Speaker 5: Of it. 488 00:31:47,436 --> 00:31:52,076 Speaker 15: About what might happen when you get into war. But 489 00:31:52,316 --> 00:31:56,236 Speaker 15: anyone who thinks that he can set down and with 490 00:31:56,396 --> 00:32:00,476 Speaker 15: a few learned individuals plan a strategy for the country 491 00:32:00,556 --> 00:32:02,276 Speaker 15: that's going to keep them all the trouble and win 492 00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:06,556 Speaker 15: the wars as well as in Lexi, it's not going 493 00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:12,076 Speaker 15: to happen, So don't defend on strategy and all depend 494 00:32:12,196 --> 00:32:13,996 Speaker 15: on planking a lot. 495 00:32:15,196 --> 00:32:18,836 Speaker 2: And then he says, instead of strategy, instead of thinking, 496 00:32:19,396 --> 00:32:22,236 Speaker 2: what you really need is some hardware to back you up, 497 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 2: a thing made of wood and metal piercing the air. 498 00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:33,676 Speaker 2: I said way back in the first installment of this 499 00:32:33,756 --> 00:32:37,716 Speaker 2: story that Curtis le May was a type, a prototype 500 00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:42,396 Speaker 2: of the modern problem solver, the unshakable belief in technology, 501 00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 2: the narrowness of focus, the ironclad self confidence. You can 502 00:32:47,596 --> 00:32:51,196 Speaker 2: find versions of le May everywhere these days, all equally 503 00:32:51,236 --> 00:32:55,516 Speaker 2: well intentioned, all equally successful in their chosen field of battle, 504 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:59,596 Speaker 2: all equally applauded by the world around them. I applaud 505 00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:03,436 Speaker 2: them too sometimes and profit from their victories as much 506 00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:06,876 Speaker 2: as you do. It's just that I would have thought 507 00:33:07,156 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 2: that the events of March ninth and tenth, nineteen forty 508 00:33:10,116 --> 00:33:21,676 Speaker 2: five would have given us pause just a little. Curtis 509 00:33:21,876 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 2: May died in nineteen ninety of a heart attack. He's 510 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 2: buried in the US Air Force Academy Cemetery in Colorado Springs, 511 00:33:29,676 --> 00:33:33,676 Speaker 2: where he belongs alongside his fellow airmen. 512 00:33:42,356 --> 00:33:45,356 Speaker 4: So it's an exact photo after Tokyo air raid. 513 00:33:45,956 --> 00:33:46,316 Speaker 1: This is it. 514 00:33:46,596 --> 00:33:49,716 Speaker 4: It's Asa, and so here it's a summita river, and 515 00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:52,996 Speaker 4: so this area is a Hondo, and this area and 516 00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:54,276 Speaker 4: so here it is Asa. 517 00:33:55,236 --> 00:33:58,356 Speaker 2: In East Tokyo, on the edge of the Fukugawa District, 518 00:33:58,716 --> 00:34:02,076 Speaker 2: there's a small museum. It's called the Center of the 519 00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:05,796 Speaker 2: Tokyo Raids and War Damage. It's on a side street, 520 00:34:06,316 --> 00:34:09,556 Speaker 2: two stories brick, looks like there should be a dentist 521 00:34:09,636 --> 00:34:12,516 Speaker 2: office in it. You walk in and there's a little 522 00:34:12,516 --> 00:34:15,516 Speaker 2: gift shop to the side, more like a few bookshelves, 523 00:34:15,836 --> 00:34:18,036 Speaker 2: and what looks like a classroom with a bunch of 524 00:34:18,036 --> 00:34:20,796 Speaker 2: folding chairs where an introductory video. 525 00:34:20,556 --> 00:34:28,516 Speaker 3: Plays stops the str name Jeraskara. 526 00:34:28,156 --> 00:34:28,956 Speaker 1: Tokyo are. 527 00:34:30,996 --> 00:34:34,396 Speaker 2: The museum is the only permanent memorial that tells the 528 00:34:34,436 --> 00:34:38,396 Speaker 2: story of the devastation of Tokyo on March ninth, nineteen 529 00:34:38,476 --> 00:34:41,996 Speaker 2: forty five, one of the deadliest nights in human history. 530 00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:45,796 Speaker 2: There's a scale model of a B twenty nine hanging 531 00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:48,876 Speaker 2: from the ceiling and an M sixty nine bomb casing 532 00:34:48,956 --> 00:34:53,156 Speaker 2: opened for display, and maps. Maps showing where the bombs 533 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:56,716 Speaker 2: fell and where people ran, and which way the winds 534 00:34:56,756 --> 00:34:59,316 Speaker 2: blew and where the bodies were found. 535 00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:05,116 Speaker 4: So many people escaped to the elementary school and Osamo 536 00:35:05,196 --> 00:35:06,076 Speaker 4: High School. 537 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 2: Our guide caru Ito, talked about one of the spots 538 00:35:10,076 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 2: on a map. There was an elementary school in the 539 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:15,796 Speaker 2: heart of the area bomb that night, one of the 540 00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 2: only concrete buildings in the district. So people ran there 541 00:35:19,756 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 2: because they thought they would be safer than in the 542 00:35:21,916 --> 00:35:23,836 Speaker 2: wooden buildings on fire all around them. 543 00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:28,236 Speaker 4: They escaped to the concrete the brooding, but so inside 544 00:35:28,276 --> 00:35:32,436 Speaker 4: it was a birding, so they also carried the Pisa sheet. 545 00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:36,516 Speaker 2: They were killed by the heat from the burning nape bomb. Outside. 546 00:35:36,956 --> 00:35:40,796 Speaker 2: A concrete structure in the midst of a firestorm becomes 547 00:35:40,796 --> 00:35:44,676 Speaker 2: an oven. Then Ito told us the story of one 548 00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:47,956 Speaker 2: of the few survivors that night. He was a teacher 549 00:35:48,076 --> 00:35:50,516 Speaker 2: at the school, and he had been manning the front gate, 550 00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:54,996 Speaker 2: but so many people rushed in that he was knocked down, trampled. 551 00:35:56,116 --> 00:35:58,956 Speaker 2: There were people on top of him. He heard screaming. 552 00:35:59,476 --> 00:36:03,156 Speaker 2: He passed out. Then hours later came two. 553 00:36:06,436 --> 00:36:10,716 Speaker 4: So he noticed many people so done into the cab 554 00:36:10,996 --> 00:36:14,916 Speaker 4: on him, like like. 555 00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:20,316 Speaker 2: The people who had trampled him had turned the carbon. 556 00:36:22,796 --> 00:36:26,876 Speaker 4: People on him. So tye into the cab, so with 557 00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:32,996 Speaker 4: our sheet and a fire and so only him. 558 00:36:34,356 --> 00:36:38,996 Speaker 2: She survived under a mound of carbon. 559 00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:54,116 Speaker 6: Thank you, Oh that was left to a brick. There's 560 00:36:54,236 --> 00:36:55,556 Speaker 6: no greater suddenness. 561 00:36:57,676 --> 00:37:01,196 Speaker 2: The teacher later became an artist. He made a scroll 562 00:37:01,236 --> 00:37:04,396 Speaker 2: to memorialize what happened that night. It hangs on the 563 00:37:04,396 --> 00:37:07,916 Speaker 2: wall of the Tokyo Raids Museum. You're hearing a recitation 564 00:37:07,996 --> 00:37:11,076 Speaker 2: of it. 565 00:37:12,356 --> 00:37:17,036 Speaker 6: The survivors who were despondent, you're able to find neither voice. 566 00:37:20,156 --> 00:37:23,636 Speaker 6: What reason can one have to kill innocent people? 567 00:37:28,356 --> 00:37:30,996 Speaker 2: If you are ever in Tokyo, you should go see 568 00:37:30,996 --> 00:37:34,156 Speaker 2: the scroll. Even if you haven't made up your mind 569 00:37:34,196 --> 00:37:37,196 Speaker 2: about everything you've just heard about the things done in 570 00:37:37,236 --> 00:37:38,916 Speaker 2: the name of problem solving. 571 00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:46,476 Speaker 6: So could I need t How could I have a 572 00:37:46,596 --> 00:37:51,156 Speaker 6: wipe from my memoriness, the cries, the agony of men, 573 00:37:51,836 --> 00:37:55,676 Speaker 6: women and children I had at that time. 574 00:38:08,756 --> 00:38:14,876 Speaker 2: M Revision's history is produced by Meila Belle and Leeman Gestou, 575 00:38:15,076 --> 00:38:19,636 Speaker 2: with Jacob Smith, Alouise Linton and Annaim. Our editor is 576 00:38:19,756 --> 00:38:24,796 Speaker 2: Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Gara, mastering by Flon Williams, 577 00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:28,516 Speaker 2: fact checking by Beth Johnson. Special thanks to the Pushkin 578 00:38:28,596 --> 00:38:34,196 Speaker 2: Crew Hedefane, Eric Sandler, Carl Migliori, Maya k Nick, Maggie Taylor, 579 00:38:34,316 --> 00:38:41,476 Speaker 2: Jason Gambrel, and of course Jacob Weisberg. Special thanks also 580 00:38:41,596 --> 00:38:45,116 Speaker 2: to our voice actor Yoshia Mao Jesse money Hunt for 581 00:38:45,116 --> 00:38:49,916 Speaker 2: his help with Japanese translation, the Science History Institute, the 582 00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:53,396 Speaker 2: Oral History Program Collection at the University of North Texas, 583 00:38:53,396 --> 00:38:58,276 Speaker 2: Special Collections, the Air Force Historical Research Agency, the Air 584 00:38:58,316 --> 00:39:01,796 Speaker 2: Force Academy, Oral History Project at the Oral History of 585 00:39:01,876 --> 00:39:06,556 Speaker 2: Archives at Columbia University, McDermott Library at the US Air 586 00:39:06,556 --> 00:39:14,716 Speaker 2: Force Academy, and the Rutgers Oral History Archive. Thank you 587 00:39:14,756 --> 00:39:23,156 Speaker 2: for listening. I'm Malcolm Gaba.