1 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: While on this episode of Newsworld. In his new book 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: While Israel Slept, Yakov Katz tells the gripping inside story 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: of how Hamas, Israel's weakest enemy, succeeded in launching a 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: surprise attack on one of the world's most powerful militaries. 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: Through a detailed examination of the events leading up to 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: October seventh, twenty twenty three, Katz exposes the intelligence and 7 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: strategic failures that enabled this devastating invasion. He explains how 8 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: years of complacency, mistaken intelligence analysis, and a misguided policy 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: of containment enabled Hamas to prepare for an assault that 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: Israel did not believe was possible and they would change 11 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: them at least. Katz unveils the dramatic events the night 12 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: before the attack, highlighting the cracks in Israel's military and 13 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: political leadership, and provides unprecedented details on how key warnings 14 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: were missed. While Israel Slap offers a sobering account of 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: how overconfidence and complacency paved the way for disaster, while 16 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: underscoring the critical lessons Israel must embrace to safeguard his future. 17 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: Here to discuss his new book, I'm really Pleased to 18 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: welcome back my guest Jakov katz. He is the former 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: editor in chief of the Jerusalem Post. He writes for 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: Newsweek and the Jewish Chronicle. Host the JPPI Weekly podcast 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: has appeared on CNN and BBC. Jakoff, welcome and thank 22 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: you for joining me again on news World. 23 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, mister speaker. It's great always to 24 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: be with you. 25 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: If you start with some current events, several countries including Belgium, France, 26 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia are preparing a formal recognize 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: Palestine at the eightieth UN's General Assembly. From your standpoint, 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: what does this mean for Israel? 29 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: Look, this is a very complicated and dangerous period to 30 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: some extent politically and diplomatically for Israel. As the war 31 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: in Gaza drags on, almost nearing the two year anniversary, 32 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 2: which will be coming up in just about a month 33 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: on October seventh, Israel finds itself today increasingly isolated on 34 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: the global stage. The go all of Western Europe pretty 35 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: much has walked away from Israel and has said that 36 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: they no longer support Israel's war, that they want the 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: war to come to an end, and Israel's only real 38 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: ally today in the world that it can rely on 39 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: as the United States, and is the administration of President 40 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: Donald Trump that continues to stand with Israel despite what 41 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 2: can only really be described as a diplomatic tsunami with 42 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: all these countries like France, the UK, Spain, Belgia and 43 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: others Canada, Australia. We're all threatening and saying that they 44 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: plan to unilaterally declare their support for an independent Palestinian state. 45 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: And while there's definitely a legitimacy to some extent in 46 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 2: their vision of what they would like to see happen 47 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 2: one day in this land and in that battle that 48 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: has gone on for I think for everybody too long 49 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 2: between Israel and the Palestinians. To do this now, mister speaker, 50 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: to give recognition today to the Palestinians of their state 51 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: is to reward terrorism. Think of Jamas for a moment. 52 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: Hamas is still holding forty eight hostages, twenty believed to 53 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: hopefully still be alive. They are still holding on to 54 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: the Gaza strip and trying to survive and remain the 55 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: governing entity. And Hamas says, one second, the world is 56 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: with us and against Israel. We still have the hostages. 57 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: Why would they end the war. What incentive do they have? 58 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 2: Israel is isolated, we might as well continue what we're doing. 59 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: I think it's not just dangerous, it's very stupid policy. 60 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: This whole thing exploded on October seventh, and I was 61 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: really surprised, given the scale of the training and the preparation, 62 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: that it hadn't been picked up. You're pretty tough. You're right. 63 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: The Israeli government and military failed the people of Israel 64 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: on October seventh, twenty twenty three. And you're you what 65 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: was the core of this? What was the most consequential failure. 66 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 2: I went into this because just as you were surprised, 67 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: and I think so many people around the world were surprised. I, 68 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: someone who has been writing about the Israeli military for 69 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: the last quarter of a century, has written multiple books 70 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: on the military, has had probably, you know, the greatest 71 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: access that a journalist can have into the corridors of 72 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: decision making in the defense establishment and in the political echelon. 73 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 2: And I was just shocked. How did this happen? To 74 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 2: even magnify the question or amplify it, we look at 75 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 2: what Israel did with Iran recently in June, when it 76 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: took out its uranium Richmond facilities created aerial superiority, eliminated 77 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: a large batch of their ballistic missile capability. We look 78 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,239 Speaker 2: at what Israel did against his Bellah with the pager 79 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: attacks and how that decimated that terrorist organization. Israel has 80 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: amazing capabilities. So what happened here against the weakest of enemies, comeus, 81 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: the one that was just supposed to be a nuisance, 82 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: the one that we believed we could contain in Gaza. 83 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: How did we not see what was happening. I've come 84 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: to call it the fairytale that Israel started to believe 85 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: in a fairytale that you could live alongside a genocidal 86 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: terrorist organization on your border that calls for your destruction, 87 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 2: that says it's coming to abroduct people, It's coming to 88 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: commit the worst to atrocities. We know, and we, the 89 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 2: people of Israel, the government, the military, say no, you 90 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 2: don't mean what you're saying. You actually you want money, 91 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: So we'll arrange and organize for the Qataris to bring 92 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: in suitcases of cash. No, you don't mean what you're saying. 93 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 2: You just want people from gods that to come into 94 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: Israel and work. We thought we knew better than what 95 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: they were openly saying. What they declared is what they 96 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: ended up doing. We were looking for so many different 97 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: pieces of intelligence. It was all out there. They were 98 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,599 Speaker 2: telling it to us, but we weren't willing to listen. 99 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: So when I look at the failure, to me, it's institutional, 100 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: it's systematic, it's collective, it's everything. It's the politicians who 101 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: set the policies, who believed that you could pay off 102 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 2: a terrorist organization. If I told you today that we 103 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: will end the war, and the way we will end 104 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: it is by giving comas every month thirty million dollars, 105 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: you would think I'm insane. But that's what Israel did 106 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: for years. Why did that make sense now? Then people 107 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: thought it was the right thing. Today we now know 108 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: that was crazy. Then people thought, we'll just build up 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: a bigger fence. We'll create the Iron Dome missile defense system, brilliant, 110 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: all amazing technology can swat away rockets like a mosquito. 111 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: But it only created a false solution of security. It 112 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,119 Speaker 2: just kept the threat contained in a specific area until 113 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: it exploded on our border. So that's what we went 114 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: on to pursue and to try to understand how did 115 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: a country like Israel, which is so vigilant when it 116 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: comes to national security, how did it fall asleep at 117 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 2: the wheel? 118 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: Were there indicators that were pretty clear that were just ignored, 119 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: or oh did they not pick up the indicators. 120 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: We go into great detail the first chapters of the book. 121 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 2: What happened exactly between October sixth and October seventh, What 122 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: was going on through the night. It seemed in the 123 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: beginning of the immediate aftermath of the attack that Israel 124 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: was completely taken by surprise, knew nothing, that nothing was amiss, 125 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: nothing was happening, nothing was being planned. What we discovered 126 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: through reporting and meeting with all the different officials, there 127 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 2: was a flurry of activity in pretty much the twenty 128 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: four hours proceeding Already on Friday, there were indicators that 129 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 2: something was off. There was the Hamas fighters in Gaza 130 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 2: who took out their Palestinian cellular sim cards and replace 131 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 2: them with Israeli cellular sim cards. This was all because 132 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,559 Speaker 2: if they're crossing into is well, they need to be 133 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: able to remain in touch and contact and have communications. 134 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: That what this did was it would have enabled them 135 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: to do that. Why did suddenly one hundred Israeli sim 136 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 2: cards go live on the grid in Gaza during the night. 137 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: There were indications and alarm bells went off of rocket 138 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: launchers underground being uncovered. There were reports of bunkers being 139 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 2: prepared for the top Rahmas commanders like Muhammadef the elusive 140 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: mysterious military commander. There were many different indications. There were 141 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: reports that had been collected in the weeks running up 142 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: to October seventh by those female surveillance soldiers who sat 143 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: along the border watching what was happening in the area 144 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: of operations, and they saw that things were off, things 145 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: were different. More people were coming to the border, different 146 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 2: people that weren't usually there, and it was all there, 147 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: but it wasn't digested the right way, It wasn't analyzed 148 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: the right way. What happened. The chief of staff of 149 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,599 Speaker 2: the IDF was speaking with his generals, the head of 150 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 2: the Shinbet, the intelligence agency, was talking with his division commanders, 151 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: and they were all trying to process what was happening. 152 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 2: And the real dilemma was is this a drill or 153 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: is this an attack? And if it is an attack, 154 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 2: what is the scale and scope of the attack. But 155 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: in the end they didn't make the right decision, and 156 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: they fell on the side of this potentially being just 157 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: a drill. 158 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: There's a pattern you see in some campaigns where one 159 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: side engages in a behavior over and over until it 160 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: becomes normal and nobody takes it seriously. But in fact 161 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're preparing for the attack. It 162 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: says that they looked like they're well, we've seen them 163 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: do that before. To what he sent was Hamas actually 164 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: modeling what it was going to do in a way 165 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: that was seen over time. We just discounted. 166 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: By the way, you're one hundred percent right, because when 167 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: we look back now and we can do the autopsy 168 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 2: so called, we see the Kamas was doing activity along 169 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: the border. Those were those protests. They were flying kites 170 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 2: across the border, they were sending projectiles across the border. 171 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: They were sending hundreds, if not thousands of people to 172 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 2: burn towires next to the border. What they were doing, 173 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: we now know, is normalizing being alongside the border, and 174 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: that got Israelis to think these really security forces, it's 175 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 2: not out of the ordinary. If they're getting too close 176 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: to an area that in the past they would never 177 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,199 Speaker 2: get too close to. That was one the second thing 178 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 2: that they did was they built these mock bases inside 179 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: the Gaza Strip, which they created and used to drill 180 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: and to train for raiding military bases and what that 181 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 2: would look like and how they would abduct soldiers. And 182 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: it seemed more sometimes like it was just a theater, 183 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 2: like it wasn't real, because the idea that Kamas would 184 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: be able to cross in such a way was seen 185 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: as so far fetched as never being possible. You know, 186 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: you talk about the tunnels inside Gaza as an example. 187 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 2: Israel's whole focus, and we tell this in the book 188 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: was about the cross border tunnels, the tunnels that were 189 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 2: potentially could cross into Israel and be used to then infiltrate, 190 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 2: carry out terrorist attacks, potentially kidnap soldiers and bring them 191 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: back to Gaza. But inside the tunnels inside Gaza, Israel 192 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 2: never focused on. It focused all its efforts on stopping 193 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 2: those cross border tunnels, but not the hundreds of miles 194 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,960 Speaker 2: of tunnels that were literally dug all throughout crisscrossing the 195 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: Gaza Strip. Why was that because it wasn't seen as 196 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: a threat. What would ever happen? Why would Israel ever 197 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: need to deal with that? No one ever imagined that 198 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 2: you'd have two hundred and fifty people who would be 199 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 2: held by Hamas inside those very tunnels. So when the 200 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: war began and Israel launches its offensive towards the end 201 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: of October of twenty twenty three, it knew that there 202 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: were tunnels everywhere. It knew that Holmes had hatches. But 203 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: just because you know where the hatches doesn't mean you 204 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: know what the route of that tunnel is. Now you've 205 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 2: got to go map it all out. And still today, 206 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: almost two years into this war, Israel is continuing to 207 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 2: discover tunnels that did not know of their existence Instaid Gaza. 208 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: And I know that sounds crazy when you think about 209 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 2: how much time Israel has operated there, how long it's 210 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: been there, what it's done there, and it's still be surprised, 211 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: shows just how extensive this was by Hamas. 212 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: Are you a little surprised that after two solid years 213 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: of war we have not had greater success. 214 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: I'm not overly surprised, because I think what we have 215 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 2: seen is the way that Hamas created its infrastructure, the 216 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: way it embedded itself in civilian infrastructure, Just how protected 217 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: it created for itself to have its bases and its 218 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: main command post, under hospital, schools, inside homes, under homes. 219 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: This is super complicated. 220 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: Now. 221 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 2: I also think that had there not been hostages, the 222 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: war could have ended much earlier. The hostages added a 223 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 2: whole other dimension of complexity, because you and I could 224 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,719 Speaker 2: have had this conversation in October eighth and you could 225 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: have said to me, you know what, Yakov, the war 226 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 2: will end in a victory. Israel will get back the hostages, 227 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 2: but Kamas will unfortunately remain in control of Gaza. And 228 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: I would say to you, speaker Gingrich, that's crazy. And 229 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: I could have said to you, mister speaker, we're going 230 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: to win the war because we're going to bring down Hamas. 231 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: They're no longer going to control Gaza. We will destroy them, 232 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: but the hostages will be lost forever. And you could 233 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: have said to me, Yakov, that's crazy. The hostages added 234 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: a complexity that there's no possibility for an end to 235 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: the war and a victory for Israel without retrieving them 236 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: and bringing them home. So even if Israel says, look, 237 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: I've done enough militarily, I have degraded Hamas to the 238 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 2: greatest extent possible, and now is the time to insert 239 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 2: the political resolution, because, as we know, military is just 240 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: a way towards the political resolution. We can't do that 241 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 2: as long as hostages are still there. Israelis cannot move 242 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: on from this as long as hostages are still there. 243 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:10,479 Speaker 1: So why do you think Hamas has been so desperately 244 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: sustaining hostages in ways that if the world was even 245 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: a tiny bit fairer, the brutality and the horror of 246 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: the hostage treatment by Hamas would condemn them permanently. And 247 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: yet they do things that have to be totally alienating 248 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: from an Israeli standpoint. 249 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: Hamas is very much focused on how it can survive 250 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: this war. That is its ultimate objective. I think tragically 251 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: what we've seen happen is that Hamas does not care 252 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: about the people of Gaza. It does not care about 253 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 2: the infrastructure in Gaza, and from its perspective, the more 254 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: people who die and are killed, the better it is. 255 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: Because this leads to the isolation of Israel, to the 256 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: condemnation of Israel, to Israel being dragged before or the 257 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 2: ICC and the ICJ and the criminal courts all over 258 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: the world. This is what Hamas wanted, and Hamas continues 259 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: to hold on to a belief that potentially it can 260 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: outlive this and it can't survive this campaign by Israel 261 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: against the terrorist infrastructure in Gaza. The hostages are something 262 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: of an insurance card, and they are held by Hamas, 263 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: which believes that as long as it has had these 264 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: hostages in its hands, Israel's hands will be tied and 265 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 2: what Israel is able to do will be severely limited. 266 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: The issue, though, I think that we have to keep 267 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: in mind, and this leads us to actually where we 268 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: are right now in this war is that Israel which 269 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: is on the verge potentially of an offensive now in 270 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: Gaza City, which is highly criticized by different people, especially 271 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: the families of the hostages, who say, why are you 272 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: expanding the war when you should be making a deal 273 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: and bringing our loved ones home. They're right, But at 274 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: the same time, the Prime Minister is right when he 275 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 2: says we need military pressure to even get Kamas to 276 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: agree to a potential deal. So it's not a zero 277 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: sum game. It's very complex. 278 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: In your mind. Here's it for all practical purposes, impossible 279 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: to destroy Hamas. 280 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 2: I think it's possible. You can never destroy every fighter, 281 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: you can never collect every collection CUV ak forty seven. 282 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: You can't kill the ideology out of people. But what 283 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: you can do, I believe, is achieve potentially two objectives. One, 284 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 2: you can degrade them to the level at which they 285 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 2: will no longer have the desire to fight and they 286 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: understand that it is no longer in their interests and 287 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: they no longer have the capability to really do anything. 288 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 2: You will still need an entity, whether it is you, Israel, 289 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 2: it's a new governing entity, whatever that entity is. You 290 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: need someone on the ground who is going to prevent 291 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: them from rebuilding and reconstituting. But there's another thing that 292 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 2: is just as important that that is the deradicalization that 293 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 2: has to take place in Gaza. You have to deradicalize it. 294 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: That requires changes to the education system, to the culture institutions, 295 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: to the political establishment. It's almost a generational shift. Deradicalization 296 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: has to come with this war because if they won't 297 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 2: make the decision on their own to deradicalize, it will 298 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: have to be forced on them, and that's very difficult 299 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: to do. So you have to hope that through the 300 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,239 Speaker 2: military victory, that they've been beaten so badly, they will 301 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: willingly or maybe be more complicit to undergo that deradicalization 302 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: that is needed. We need a generation that is not 303 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 2: raised to want to kill me and my kids right now. 304 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: That's how people are taught in the schools of the 305 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: Gaza Strip. That has to change. We need a generation 306 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: of Palestinians who aren't celebrating the life of what who 307 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: they call martyrs and you and I would call murderers. 308 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: That has to change. And until that changes, I don't 309 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: know how we have the stability that we all want. 310 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: Seems to me, any negotiation should include the radicalization and 311 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: you're done that. The diplomats focus on that at all. 312 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: The diplomats don't focus on it, and I think the 313 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: tragically people today's world want quick wins. They want quick 314 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: results and solutions, because what you and I are talking about, 315 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: we're talking about something that will take years till it 316 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: actually changes. Could take fifteen years, could take twenty years. 317 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 2: But if you really want everlasting peace here and chance 318 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: for that to life last and to exist, you have 319 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: to insist on it because otherwise, if the culture continues, 320 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,959 Speaker 2: we'll find ourselves back here in five years tens. If 321 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: they're determined to rebuild, they'll get weapons somehow, it might 322 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 2: take longer, they might not be able to rebuild to 323 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: the same force that they had on October six, twenty 324 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 2: twenty three, but they'll get close to what they had, 325 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: and then what and then we'll be in another war, 326 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: another conflict. Isn't this the time to potentially end it 327 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: once and for all? But that has to come with 328 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: strong leadership on the Israeli side, on the Palestinian side, 329 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: and around the world. And right now, unfortunately, what we're seeing, 330 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 2: and we started with this, what we're seeing out of Europe, 331 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: that is not the leadership that's going to lead to that. 332 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the Europeans are busy appeasing their own 333 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: Muslim populations. But it seems to me that any long 334 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: term solution, it isn't just a truce between wars, has 335 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: to involve very profound changes. And since Hamas was founded 336 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: explicitly on the destruction of Israel, in a very real sense, 337 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: you're asking them to give up who they are as 338 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: a matter of identity. 339 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think what we need to see happen here 340 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 2: is for the people of Gaza to recognize that Hamas 341 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 2: has only brought upon them disaster. You look at the 342 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 2: tragedy that has fallen on Gaza, and it's a tragedy. 343 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 2: I have no problem saying that it's tragic what's happened, 344 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 2: the destruction, the number of people killed. I don't accept 345 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 2: the number that is put out by the Hamas Health Ministry, 346 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 2: although the way they call it in the mainstream media, 347 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: the Palestinian Health Ministry, of the Gaza Health Minstry, No, 348 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 2: this is Hamas people. No one would believe the Isis 349 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: Health Ministry or the al Qaeda Health Ministry. For some reason, 350 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: we accept as if it's gospel, the Hamas Health Ministry. 351 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: But even if I go with that number, or even 352 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 2: if I don't accept it, there are people who have 353 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: been killed in the crossfire, men, women and children. War 354 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: is terrible. This is why Israel tried to avoid it 355 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 2: for so long. It's why Israel fell asleep, fell into 356 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: a state of complacency, and believed that it might be 357 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 2: possible to actually kick the can down the road and 358 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 2: not to have to deal with it. But I think 359 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: that ultimately, I want to hope that the people of Gaza, 360 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 2: which who had voted for Hamas in multiple elections, who 361 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: when polling showed, continued to support Kamas even after October seventh, 362 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 2: maybe they can wake up and change. We could talk 363 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 2: about deradicalization, but deradicalization is only possible with decisive victory. 364 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 2: It won't happen on its own. You have to beat 365 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 2: it out of them. 366 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: That will require a continuing level of violence and repression 367 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: for a pretty long time. 368 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,239 Speaker 2: That's the tragedy, or the sad part, at least from 369 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 2: the Israeli perspective. If I think about it, is that 370 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: what it means for the long term are two stark conclusions. One, 371 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 2: the war will not just end. This will be a 372 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: battle that will continue. It will be a battle that 373 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 2: will continue, because if we look at Israel's National Defense 374 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: Doctor in over decades, Israel never really used preemptive military action. 375 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: It only did so when dealing with nuclear threats, so 376 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 2: the bombing of O c Raq in nineteen eighty one, 377 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: the Racki reactor, the bombing of l k Bar in 378 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, the Syrian reactor, But it never 379 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 2: did it for the conventional threats. It never preempted against 380 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: the Syrian army or preempted against his Billah, which was 381 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 2: amassing one hundred and fifty thousand rockets and missiles or 382 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 2: come outs for that matter. But the lesson of October 383 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 2: seventh is you can't live like that. You can't say, oh, 384 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: I see a rocket, I'll write down where it is, 385 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: I'll add it to my bank target or target bank, 386 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: and I'll deal with it one day. You have to 387 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: deal with it now, because one becomes one hundred, becomes 388 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 2: a thousand, becomes ten thousand, becomes one hundred thousand. It 389 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: has to be dealt with now for the time being. 390 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 2: Isroe's holding by this new policy. That is the dramatic 391 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: change that we're seeing now in the region. We're continuing 392 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: to see strikes in Lebanon even after the ceasefire went 393 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: into effect in September. This is part of that dramatic 394 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 2: shift in Israel's understanding that it can't sit by and 395 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: let them rearm and reconstitute themselves. But what that means 396 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: is that my kids are going to have to continue 397 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 2: to fight for many years to come, as well many 398 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: other millions of Israelis. And that's hard to come to 399 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: terms with, mister speaker, because what it means is that 400 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 2: we the people of Israel, who want to see ourselves 401 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 2: as part of the Western world, who see ourselves our 402 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 2: cultural ties, our trade ties. It's with the US, it's 403 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: with Europe. We don't consume Indian or Chinese movies and media. 404 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: We look at ourselves as part of the Western world. 405 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: But it means that we won't be able to live 406 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 2: like that because we are going to have to fight someone. 407 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 2: I once heard a good line. Israelis want to think 408 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: they live in Luxembourg, but they refuse to recognize is 409 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 2: that their neighbors are not France and Belgium, it's Hamas 410 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 2: his Blah, Syria and Iran. These are the countries they 411 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: have to deal with in their surroundings. You're not going 412 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 2: to be Luxembourg when you have those neighbors on your borders. 413 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: From your perspective, the next generation or two will still 414 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: require a level of militancy could be sustained inside a 415 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,920 Speaker 1: democratic crime work in a way which will be sort 416 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: of a constant strain on the population. 417 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: It will continue to be a strain, and it will 418 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: be a strain because what we're already seeing is the 419 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: way the reservists are called up. The Israeli army is small, 420 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: the standing army. It relies on the reserves, and the 421 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 2: reserves have been called up and called on in a 422 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 2: way that we have never seen before. I have friends 423 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: family that have been serving hundreds and hundreds of days 424 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 2: since October seventh? What about their jobs? What about their families? 425 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 2: And this is not over. 426 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: How does that affect the economy? Israel said, an astonishing economy. 427 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: Can you sustain that low also mobilizing. 428 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 2: You can't sustain that over time? The Israeli economy is 429 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 2: for the time being stable, but it won't last. We're 430 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 2: seeing a downturn in investments in Israel, of course because 431 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: of the war. Who's coming now to Israel to an 432 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 2: invest There are pockets of excellence and stories of amazing 433 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 2: startup and high tech exits. There was just two in 434 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 2: the last year and the twenty five billion dollar mark, 435 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: which were remarkable. One bought by Google, another company bought 436 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: another one, Palo Alto bought one. But these are huge. 437 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 2: But for the long term, when you have tourism non existent, 438 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 2: when you have airlines that are not flying to Israel 439 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: still because of the war, when you have investment dropping, 440 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: it's going to hit the country and it's going to 441 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: hurt the economy. And when you have people who have 442 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: lost their jobs because of the reserve service or small 443 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: businesses that have collapsed because the owners are not able 444 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 2: to work, they're only in reserves. This is going to 445 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: create a new class in Israel, and the economists are 446 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 2: very concerned. 447 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: One other things was I think intensified by the pressures 448 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 1: of the war, which is you did have a faction 449 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: of Israelites who basically argued that they were exempt from everything, 450 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: mayn't have to serve in the military, than net to 451 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: pay taxes. My impression is that under the pressure cooker 452 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: of this continuing intense struggle, that the society has reached 453 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: a decision that they have to be integrated into the 454 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: society at large, whatever it does to their religious beliefs. 455 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: It isn't that a very profound moment in Israeli history. 456 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: It's a very profound moment. You're touching out. A very 457 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 2: difficult moment too. There is a segment of Israeli society 458 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 2: what are known as the ultra Orthodox, the strictly observant 459 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: men and women from the community. There's about now one 460 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: point three million. They make up just over about thirteen 461 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: percent of Israel's population. Let them live how they want. 462 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 2: I think you and I can both appreciate religion and 463 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: religious observance, but that doesn't mean that you don't have 464 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 2: to serve your country, and especially a country like Israel well, 465 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: which is so beaten down and surrounded by so many threats. 466 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: The historical beginnings were in the founding of the state, 467 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: when then it was just a few hundred and a 468 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: few thousand. David Ben Gurion, the founding Prime Minister of Israel, 469 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: agreed to a request by one of the leading rabbis 470 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 2: let them stay in their academies and what are known 471 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: as the Yeshivas, and Israel agreed and the Prime minister, sorry, agreed, 472 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 2: but that community because of high birth rate, which is great, right, 473 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: that's good for the numbers, but it blew up and 474 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 2: with that the exemption increased. If you look at, for example, 475 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: my home in Jerusalem, the largest city in the country, 476 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: about a million people, half of the kids who started 477 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 2: first grade on September first were ultra Orthodox kids. What 478 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 2: that means is that half of the kids in the 479 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: schools are not going to be serving in the Israeli 480 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: military right now, as the laws are and as the 481 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 2: current system is, that's not sustainable. The country can't sustain it. 482 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: The reservists are being called on in the way that 483 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: they're being called on because of people who are not serving. 484 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 2: That has to change. And I think that what we 485 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: learned in October seven is that the military is not 486 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 2: big enough. The military needs more soldiers and there is 487 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: a sector in society that could step up and could 488 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: lend its hand. And this is so important today now. 489 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: As I understand that the legislation is moving forward. 490 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: The legislation is moving forward, it's rocking a very strong way. 491 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 2: Prime Minister in Natanio's coalition. Right now, the Israeli Parliament, 492 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,719 Speaker 2: the Canesset, is on recess similar to Congress, and it 493 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: will really shake things that are happening. The question of 494 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: what happens when they return from that recess just after 495 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 2: the Jewish high holidays in October will test whether this 496 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 2: coalition can last, and if it can't, we'll go to 497 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: an earlier election. Elections are supposed to be held in 498 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 2: October of twenty six, but I would predict that they 499 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 2: will be held earlier because of this exact issue, because 500 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: it will be very hard for n Atenno to keep 501 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: these people in his coalition, these ultra orthodox, and give 502 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: them a bill that will satisfy them. 503 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: Well, the opposition parties unite with the other elements of 504 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: Netnyahu's coalition to pass this kind of legislation. 505 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: That I'm not sure that's a good question. Not many 506 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: people are like you who know how to rally the votes, 507 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 2: swip the votes together. It's not going to be simple. 508 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: On the one hand, there's an opportunity and some people 509 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: in the opposition, Israel's leader of Opposition has actually extended 510 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: an olive branch of sorts to the Prime Minister and said, listen, 511 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: forget about the extremist senior coalition, those on the right 512 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: and the ultra Orthodox. We will give you the support 513 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: from the outside. Make the deal to bring the hostages 514 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: home and pass the IDF draft bill, and we'll help 515 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: you pass it, and we will agree together on a 516 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 2: agreed upon date for elections. Natanio does not trust him, 517 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: of course, and that makes sense in politics. But I 518 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: think what we're talking about is that this war, what 519 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 2: October seventh did was not just shake Israel at its 520 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: core and create trauma and fear of what is to come. 521 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: And the trauma is still real as the hostages languish 522 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,959 Speaker 2: in Hamas captivity, but It also highlighted and showcased the 523 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: real social divisions that we have that have to be 524 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: dealt with, like this one. We can't neglect and ignore 525 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: it anymore until October seventh. Had you asked me, mister Speaker, 526 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: I would have said, you know, it's an issue. We 527 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 2: got to deal with it. It's not the end of 528 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 2: the world. We'll survive without them. Today, I think it's 529 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: one of the most important issues for the future of 530 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: the State of Israel, and if it's not dealt with now, 531 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 2: this country will not be sustainable in just a few decades. 532 00:32:58,080 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 2: It just won't be. 533 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: Even all the things as we've discussed and all the problems, 534 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: all the challenges. Are you an optimist or a pessimist 535 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: of an Israel's future? 536 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 2: I am a total optimist and I'll tell you why. 537 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: And my book, While Israel Slept, does focus on the 538 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: failures and what led to that horrific day and to 539 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 2: the war that continues to drag on today. But it's 540 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: only one side of the coin. The other side of 541 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: the coin is the re engineering of the Middle East 542 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 2: that has taken place. Heran's nuclear and Richmond facilities have 543 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 2: been destroyed asad in Syria has been toppled, his Belah 544 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: has been beaten back, Hamas has been degraded. The state 545 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: of Israel is today more safe and more secure than 546 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: it was on October sixth. From a military perspective, yes, 547 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: today we are facing a diplomatic isolation from places, definitely 548 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: in Europe. But I predict that will change, hopefully, please God, 549 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: when this war is actually over and we bring back 550 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 2: the hostages. But I think that this reality on the 551 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: ground creates amazing opportunities. Can we reach an agreement with 552 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 2: the new regime in Syria, as President Trump is trying 553 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: to brok her? Can we reach an agreement potentially with 554 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,959 Speaker 2: the government in Lebanon, which, for the first time ever 555 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 2: is trying to rein in his bla and collect the 556 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,319 Speaker 2: illicit arms that his Belah has. Is it possible in 557 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: the aftermath of the Israelian American attacks on Iran that 558 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 2: a new, better, more robust nuclear deal is possible with 559 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: the Iranians? And when I look at the region and 560 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: I see Israel's deterrence restored its military strength intact, I 561 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 2: think that people know that this is a strong country. 562 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 2: Yes it fell, yes it was surprised, but in the 563 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: big picture in the scheme of things, Israel's winning, so 564 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: it gives me hope. We need to remain vigilant, but 565 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 2: we also have to take advantage of these opportunities, and 566 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 2: that requires something that you know a lot about political leadership. 567 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 2: We need politicians who are willing to take those risks 568 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,240 Speaker 2: and take the decisions. Hold the sword in one hand, 569 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: but keep an outstretched hand that's looking for opportunities with 570 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: the other. And right now I don't see it the 571 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: way it should be. I want to hope that we 572 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:23,439 Speaker 2: get there. 573 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: That's very encouraging, a largely how I feel, Yakava. I 574 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: want to thank you for joining me. Your new book, 575 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,800 Speaker 1: While Israel Sleap Halhamas Surprised, the Most Powerful Military and 576 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: Middle East is available now on Amazon and in books 577 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: showers everywhere, and when our listeners know, they can find 578 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,399 Speaker 1: out more about your work, which goes on every day. 579 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: You do an amazing job. I read your material all 580 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: the time, and all of our listeners can go to 581 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: your website at yakovcats dot com and stay up with 582 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: all the things because I'm certain as things evolve, you're 583 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 1: going to write and analyze and briefests and informosts so 584 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm delighted you would take this time. Thank you so much. 585 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: It was always great to be with you. 586 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Yakov Kutz. You can get 587 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, Well Israel Slap 588 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: on our show page at neutorld dot com. Newtorld is 589 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: produced by Gengish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 590 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: is Guernsey Sloan. Our researchers Rachel Peterson. You artwork for 591 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 592 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: the team at Gingish three sixty. If you've been enjoying 593 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: news World, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and 594 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: both greate us with five stars and give us a 595 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about. Right now, 596 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: listeners a neut World consign. Up for my three free 597 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: weekly columns at gingrishree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 598 00:36:46,920 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: net Gingrich. This is neutral s