WEBVTT - The Standard Case 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:19.956 --> 0:00:23.236 On February eighteenth, two thousand and eight, on the first 0:00:23.316 --> 0:00:26.956 day of spring training, a Major League Baseball player named 0:00:26.996 --> 0:00:31.396 Andy Pettitt held a press conference. He was a pitcher who, 0:00:31.436 --> 0:00:34.076 over the course of a long and brilliant career, played 0:00:34.076 --> 0:00:37.156 for the New York Yankees and the Houston Astros. A 0:00:37.196 --> 0:00:40.836 straight arrow, a beloved teammate, one of the good guys. 0:00:41.716 --> 0:00:45.116 But now an investigation by Major League Baseball had found 0:00:45.156 --> 0:00:50.396 that Pettit had, on several occasions used performance enhancing drugs. 0:00:51.476 --> 0:00:54.276 I want to apologize to the New York Yankees and 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:58.676 to the Houston Astros organizations, and to their fans, and 0:00:58.756 --> 0:01:02.076 to all my teammates and to all of baseball fans 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:06.516 for the embarrassment I have called them. 0:01:06.916 --> 0:01:09.596 He reads from notes, his head bowed and shame. 0:01:10.716 --> 0:01:13.756 I also want to tell anyone that is an anti 0:01:13.796 --> 0:01:15.436 Pettitt fan, I am sorry. 0:01:16.396 --> 0:01:22.516 Pettit wanted to come clean, sort of. I'm not that 0:01:22.636 --> 0:01:25.196 much of a baseball fan, but I have to say 0:01:25.436 --> 0:01:28.476 I've always been obsessed with his case. Obsessed to the 0:01:28.476 --> 0:01:30.836 point where if you sat next to me on an airplane, 0:01:31.036 --> 0:01:33.836 I would bring it up without warning and bend your 0:01:33.836 --> 0:01:37.356 ear for a good half hour. First off, what sort 0:01:37.356 --> 0:01:41.396 of bizarre apology is this? I want to apologize for 0:01:41.476 --> 0:01:47.196 the embarrassment I caused others others I thought this was 0:01:47.236 --> 0:01:50.236 about Andy Pettit and what Andy Pettit did wrong. 0:01:51.156 --> 0:01:53.316 I never took this to get an edge on anyone. 0:01:53.996 --> 0:01:56.756 I did this to try to get off the DL 0:01:56.956 --> 0:01:59.956 and to do my job, and again for that, I 0:01:59.996 --> 0:02:01.796 am sorry for the mistakes I've made. 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:07.716 Pettit says I was injured. I took performance enhancing drugs 0:02:07.716 --> 0:02:11.556 to get healthy, not to get ahead. Does that distinction matter? 0:02:13.316 --> 0:02:16.076 Then he segues into this long thing about his dad, 0:02:16.436 --> 0:02:19.156 who he somehow dragged into the whole mess and now 0:02:19.196 --> 0:02:21.876 wished to drag out of it. He goes on and 0:02:21.916 --> 0:02:25.396 on about his dad's heart problems. It's all very emotional, 0:02:25.876 --> 0:02:28.516 But what does his dad's heart condition have to do 0:02:28.596 --> 0:02:32.836 with the fact he cheated? At the time, everyone waited 0:02:32.836 --> 0:02:37.476 on Anti Pettitt's public statement, including my favorite, a professor 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:40.356 named Holly Weeks, who in the pages of the Harvard 0:02:40.396 --> 0:02:44.716 Business Review called it a self protective string of explaining 0:02:45.196 --> 0:02:49.556 back padding and minimizing with a small whan apology tucked 0:02:49.596 --> 0:02:56.956 in ouch. My name is Malcolm Gladwell, you're listening to 0:02:57.076 --> 0:03:07.716 Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 0:03:07.796 --> 0:03:11.316 episode is the first of a three part series about 0:03:11.316 --> 0:03:15.716 how to make sense of novel problems. Because what happened 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:19.076 to Andy Pettitt was a novel problem. And if a 0:03:19.116 --> 0:03:22.316 problem is novel, if we've never seen that kind of 0:03:22.356 --> 0:03:25.556 problem before, how do we know how to think about it. 0:03:30.236 --> 0:03:32.916 I think we're really bad at figuring out novel problems. 0:03:33.556 --> 0:03:36.476 I think we need some help. I have a suggestion, 0:03:37.396 --> 0:03:43.476 So sta you go to Rome to the Church of 0:03:43.516 --> 0:03:44.436 the Jesus. 0:03:45.556 --> 0:03:48.436 In or a seniority. 0:03:53.716 --> 0:03:57.676 The Church of the Jesu, built in fifteen sixty eight, 0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:01.076 the spiritual home of perhaps the most storied of the 0:04:01.116 --> 0:04:05.716 many separate divisions of the Roman Catholic Church, the Jesuits. 0:04:08.156 --> 0:04:08.756 Ferenti. 0:04:10.636 --> 0:04:15.716 It is impossible to describe the interior. It's breathtaking color ornamentation. 0:04:16.196 --> 0:04:18.916 Take one of those standard issue Renaissance cathedrals that you 0:04:18.956 --> 0:04:22.836 can find all over the world, caffeinated heavily. That's the 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:24.116 Church of the Jesuit. 0:04:25.796 --> 0:04:28.836 And you can see on one side you can see 0:04:29.236 --> 0:04:34.396 Saint Ignacians being presented to God by Saint Peter Saint 0:04:34.396 --> 0:04:37.956 Peter was the first pop and Ignatius was the first 0:04:38.396 --> 0:04:42.356 Superior General of the Jesuits. Saint Ignacious is buried there, 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:48.076 while Savior, oh his only his right arm as you 0:04:48.116 --> 0:04:50.836 can see on the aldar. This his right arm. You 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:52.156 shoes to baptize so. 0:04:52.236 --> 0:04:56.996 Many people, so that only his right armies are where 0:04:56.996 --> 0:05:03.716 he's arrested. In India, the Jesuit order was founded in 0:05:03.716 --> 0:05:07.716 the sixteenth century by Saint Ignatius of Loyola, a Spanish nobleman. 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:11.356 They're famous as the educators of the Roman Catholic Church. 0:05:12.116 --> 0:05:14.796 There may well be a Loyola High School or university 0:05:14.796 --> 0:05:17.716 in your town, or a school named after Saint Francis 0:05:17.756 --> 0:05:23.396 of Xavier. Another legendary Jesuit, Georgetown University, is a Jesuit school, 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:28.716 so as Boston College. The Jesuits are intellectual, austere, and 0:05:28.836 --> 0:05:32.676 five hundred years ago, the Jesuits pioneered a specific approach 0:05:32.716 --> 0:05:36.036 to solving problems that were new to the world. It's 0:05:36.076 --> 0:05:44.756 called casuistry. I have to admit that I've fallen in 0:05:44.796 --> 0:05:48.396 love with casuistry. In this episode and the two that follow, 0:05:48.716 --> 0:05:51.276 I want to explain the beauty and the power of 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:55.116 the casuistic method. It can help with life and death issues, 0:05:55.636 --> 0:05:59.196 help us resolve some of our most divisive controversies, but 0:05:59.316 --> 0:06:06.116 also smaller things as well. From the Church of the Jesuit, 0:06:06.516 --> 0:06:08.916 my guide took me next door to the rooms where 0:06:09.156 --> 0:06:12.276 ind Ignacious lived. His shoes are still in the bedroom 0:06:12.396 --> 0:06:16.156 from five hundred years ago, all battered and worn. And 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:19.196 then I walked a few minutes north to Via del Seminario, 0:06:19.436 --> 0:06:22.716 to the graduate school of the Jesuit Order, a magnificent 0:06:22.756 --> 0:06:26.516 building with an enormous sunlit courtyard and a staircase so 0:06:26.636 --> 0:06:29.596 wide a carriage could drive up it, but not ornate, 0:06:30.236 --> 0:06:34.156 spare simple. I sat in a small room off the 0:06:34.196 --> 0:06:37.756 main entrance, where I imagine Jesuit theologians had been receiving 0:06:37.836 --> 0:06:41.796 visiting journalists since the late sixteenth century. I would like 0:06:41.916 --> 0:06:44.916 my listeners to learn how to think like a Jesuit. 0:06:45.156 --> 0:06:55.556 So here I am, so here I am now. 0:06:55.796 --> 0:07:01.436 Casure Street comes from the word cases in Latin something happened. 0:07:02.396 --> 0:07:05.516 So you give a case, which is a narrative, you 0:07:05.596 --> 0:07:07.156 say something happened. 0:07:07.796 --> 0:07:11.156 That's the theologian I went to see in Rome James Keenan. 0:07:11.996 --> 0:07:15.596 Father Keenan is in his sixties short, reddish hair, a 0:07:15.636 --> 0:07:18.796 gracious manner. He was wearing a pair of old sneakers, 0:07:19.156 --> 0:07:21.716 which for some reason struck me as odd. But then 0:07:21.756 --> 0:07:25.716 I remembered Saint Ignatius's battered shoes, and I thought, that's 0:07:25.876 --> 0:07:30.436 very Jesuit. Keenan says the Jesuit way of approaching problems 0:07:30.716 --> 0:07:32.516 is a function of what they were asked to do 0:07:32.596 --> 0:07:35.996 for the church. The sixteenth century, when the Jesuits get 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:39.516 their start, is the age of colonial expansion. The West 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:44.316 is being explored, the East is opening up Columbus, Magellan, Cortes, 0:07:44.956 --> 0:07:47.716 and it's the Jesuits to go out with these expeditions. 0:07:48.396 --> 0:07:52.356 The Pope asked them to be his emissaries to the world, diplomats, businessmen. 0:07:53.196 --> 0:07:55.876 And if you're out on the road thousands of miles 0:07:55.916 --> 0:07:59.596 from Rome, encountering new people and new things, you start 0:07:59.596 --> 0:08:02.836 to think differently. How could you not You're not sitting 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:06.236 behind the walls of a monastery in splendid isolation. You 0:08:06.316 --> 0:08:10.196 have to be practical, pragmatic and Augustine, one of the 0:08:10.196 --> 0:08:13.276 greatest of early Christian thinkers, thought that the biblical commandment 0:08:13.436 --> 0:08:17.596 thou shalt not lie was absolute. You should never lie, ever, 0:08:18.356 --> 0:08:20.716 but that's not very helpful to a Jesuit in the 0:08:20.756 --> 0:08:23.876 sixteenth century in a place like say England. 0:08:24.876 --> 0:08:28.516 Now, say you're in England and Queen Elizabeth is the queen, 0:08:28.836 --> 0:08:32.476 and she's not recognized as the sovereign by the Catholics, 0:08:32.956 --> 0:08:35.476 and you've just arisseed as a priest. And if you 0:08:35.596 --> 0:08:38.596 tell the soldier that you're a priest, you're going to 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:38.956 be dead. 0:08:40.356 --> 0:08:42.716 So is it moral to lie if you're being asked 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:46.716 if you're a Catholic When answering truthfully means that you're dead. 0:08:47.676 --> 0:08:49.956 That kind of question is just a beginning. 0:08:50.476 --> 0:08:54.076 There's never been international law because everybody had their own countries. 0:08:54.116 --> 0:08:56.556 Now they're finding out that there are not only new 0:08:56.636 --> 0:08:59.076 lands that have never been explored, but there are people 0:08:59.116 --> 0:09:03.356 in those lands. What jurisdictions are they, What questions of sovereignty, 0:09:03.436 --> 0:09:07.276 what questions of prerogatives are there? And a whole host 0:09:07.316 --> 0:09:11.516 of questions arise that are political and governmental, and that's 0:09:11.556 --> 0:09:13.676 going to raise well, how do you make a decision 0:09:13.676 --> 0:09:14.196 about this? 0:09:14.996 --> 0:09:19.356 In response, the Jesuits reach a really important conclusion, which 0:09:19.396 --> 0:09:21.996 is that when it comes to new problems, you can't 0:09:21.996 --> 0:09:26.676 start by appealing to a principle. Principles don't help because 0:09:26.716 --> 0:09:30.516 principles are the product of past experience, and they're only 0:09:30.596 --> 0:09:32.636 helpful so long as you're still living in the world. 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:37.036 Those past experiences help create When you're confronted with a 0:09:37.116 --> 0:09:42.676 situation you haven't encountered before, then you in uncharted territory. 0:09:42.796 --> 0:09:46.676 In those situations, the Jesuits argue, you have to proceed 0:09:46.996 --> 0:09:52.076 on a case by case basis. Now what does that mean? Well, 0:09:52.116 --> 0:09:55.116 to give just one example, there was a huge controversy 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:59.236 over maritime shipping in the sixteenth century. Keenan has studied 0:09:59.236 --> 0:10:03.156 it extensively. The Catholic Church in those days had an 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:08.356 absolute prohibition against usury. It was immoral to charge any 0:10:08.396 --> 0:10:13.636 interest on a When that prohibition was enacted centuries before 0:10:13.916 --> 0:10:17.756 it made sense. Many loans were from wealthy people lending 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:21.316 to desperately poor farmers, and the farmers were being exploited. 0:10:22.196 --> 0:10:25.236 But in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, as the world 0:10:25.316 --> 0:10:30.716 opened up, merchants started shipping valuable cargoes overseas tea, furs 0:10:30.756 --> 0:10:33.516 from the New World, sugar rum and they wanted to 0:10:33.516 --> 0:10:37.276 buy insurance on their cargo. But was the premium that 0:10:37.356 --> 0:10:41.356 someone might pay an insurance carrier usury it was a 0:10:41.436 --> 0:10:43.916 huge issue than the Church at the time. Many said 0:10:43.916 --> 0:10:48.396 it was usury, but the Jesuits replied, no, insurance is 0:10:48.436 --> 0:10:52.156 a novel problem, and you can't solve novel problems with 0:10:52.276 --> 0:10:53.116 old principles. 0:10:53.636 --> 0:10:57.396 Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century wrote that a general 0:10:57.476 --> 0:11:01.236 rule applies generally, and the more you descend into the particulars, 0:11:01.596 --> 0:11:03.956 the more it's no longer a general rule. 0:11:05.116 --> 0:11:09.316 Descend into the particulars, understand what is distinctive about the 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:13.436 case under consideration. That's what the Jesuits started to do. 0:11:14.676 --> 0:11:19.036 How First they would find a standard case. That is 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:22.396 a case that's in the same general territory where we've 0:11:22.436 --> 0:11:26.956 already reached agreement. So usury looks like an insurance premium, 0:11:27.156 --> 0:11:30.716 and everyone agrees that usury is wrong. That's a standard case. 0:11:31.476 --> 0:11:35.756 The Jesuit say, though, there's another relevant standard case. Think 0:11:35.836 --> 0:11:38.356 of the captain of the ship. He's also a kind 0:11:38.396 --> 0:11:41.996 of insurance. People pay him something like a premium to 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:44.916 make sure the ship travels safely from point A to 0:11:44.996 --> 0:11:49.756 point B, and everyone agrees the captain is a good idea. Next, 0:11:49.996 --> 0:11:53.116 the Jesuits create what they call a taxonomy. They ask 0:11:53.516 --> 0:11:56.596 how close does the case in question come to the 0:11:56.636 --> 0:12:01.196 standard cases. So is the premium paid for maritime insurance 0:12:01.556 --> 0:12:04.156 more like something you would pay a loan shark, or 0:12:04.236 --> 0:12:06.196 more like the money you would pay for a good captain. 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:10.356 So they keep looking for all sorts of similarities, and 0:12:10.396 --> 0:12:13.076 then they look for where's the breaking point, where is 0:12:13.116 --> 0:12:14.516 it no longer legitimate? 0:12:15.636 --> 0:12:18.436 And in the case of maritime insurance, the Jesuits say, 0:12:18.876 --> 0:12:22.436 insurance doesn't look that much like usury. It looks like 0:12:22.476 --> 0:12:25.356 the captain. The captain is there to make sure the 0:12:25.356 --> 0:12:28.796 ship gets from A to B safely. Insurance is there 0:12:28.836 --> 0:12:31.356 to make sure the value of the cargo gets from 0:12:31.396 --> 0:12:34.756 A to B safely. Do you see how brilliant that is? 0:12:35.636 --> 0:12:38.956 Everyone was going in circles around this question, and principles 0:12:38.996 --> 0:12:42.916 weren't helping. One side shouting Pope Gregory the Ninth ruled 0:12:42.956 --> 0:12:45.916 on this in twelve eighty seven, the other side accusing 0:12:45.956 --> 0:12:48.236 the Church of being stuck in the past. There are 0:12:48.276 --> 0:12:52.156 pirates out there, round and round and round. Jesuits just 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:57.116 say stop, let's break it down step by step. Maritime 0:12:57.156 --> 0:13:00.436 insurance is just another kind of captain, and we're all 0:13:00.476 --> 0:13:06.396 in favor of captains, right. I was not raised as 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:10.956 a Catholic. This was all new to me. Love, So next, 0:13:11.236 --> 0:13:13.676 let's go jesuit on the case of Andy Pattit. 0:13:23.956 --> 0:13:27.876 For more than a decade, there has been widespread illegal 0:13:27.996 --> 0:13:33.756 use of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing substances by 0:13:33.876 --> 0:13:35.916 players in Major League baseball. 0:13:36.276 --> 0:13:40.116 In January of two thousand and seven, George Mitchell, former 0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:43.676 Senate Majority leader, former key negotiator in the Northern Ireland 0:13:43.756 --> 0:13:48.076 Peace Process, testified before Congress on the results of his 0:13:48.156 --> 0:13:52.436 twenty month investigation into the use of performance enhancing drugs 0:13:52.476 --> 0:13:53.116 in baseball. 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:57.916 The evidence we uncovered indicates that this has not been 0:13:57.956 --> 0:14:02.756 an isolated problem involving just a few players or a 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:03.516 few clubs. 0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:07.676 The Mitchell report was four hundred and nine pages long. 0:14:08.356 --> 0:14:12.836 It named countless baseball players as illegal drug users, including 0:14:13.156 --> 0:14:17.716 on page two hundred and twenty four, Andy Pettit. The 0:14:17.756 --> 0:14:21.516 allegation came from one of Pett's closest friends, his trainer, 0:14:21.796 --> 0:14:28.836 Brian McNamee. Quote from April twenty first to June fourteenth, 0:14:28.876 --> 0:14:32.036 two thousand and two, Pettitt was on the disabled list 0:14:32.276 --> 0:14:36.836 with elbow tendinitis. Macname traveled to Tampa at Pettit's request 0:14:37.156 --> 0:14:41.036 and spent about ten days assisting Pettit with his rehabilitation. 0:14:42.036 --> 0:14:45.556 Macname recalled that he injected Pettit with human growth hormone 0:14:45.756 --> 0:14:50.756 on two to four occasions. The year before, the same 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:54.396 allegation about Pettitt had surfaced in a news report. Pettitt 0:14:54.396 --> 0:14:57.436 had denied everything, but now baseball was in turmoil over 0:14:57.476 --> 0:15:01.756 performance enhancing drugs. Names were being named. Pettit was forced 0:15:01.796 --> 0:15:02.396 to come clean. 0:15:06.076 --> 0:15:08.836 I want to apologize to the New York Yankees and 0:15:08.876 --> 0:15:12.516 to the as Houston Astros organizations and to their fans, 0:15:13.196 --> 0:15:16.196 and to all my teammates and to all of baseball 0:15:16.276 --> 0:15:19.796 fans for the embarrassment I have called them. 0:15:20.436 --> 0:15:24.476 But then the apology isn't good enough. People get upset 0:15:24.516 --> 0:15:27.836 at him. He gets defensive, round and round. You deny, 0:15:28.036 --> 0:15:31.716 you get caught, you apologize. The apology doesn't work, the 0:15:31.756 --> 0:15:38.276 same circus that happens with all these cases. Okay, but 0:15:38.396 --> 0:15:42.836 what would the Jesuit say? They would say, Wait, this 0:15:42.916 --> 0:15:47.276 is a novel problem. Baseball players using genetically engineered hormones 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:51.316 to heal injuries isn't something that's happened before. Our set 0:15:51.356 --> 0:15:54.996 of existing principles do not help us. This is a 0:15:55.036 --> 0:16:00.756 time for casuistry. So are there standard cases out there, 0:16:01.196 --> 0:16:04.956 something reasonably analogous that we all agree on to help 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:08.236 us make sense of this novel problem. It turns out 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:15.156 there are standard case number one, a pitcher named Tommy John. 0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:18.596 Perhaps you've heard of him. Tommy John was very good, 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:21.876 as good as Pettit. He played for the Los Angeles 0:16:21.876 --> 0:16:25.276 Dodgers and the Yankees. A big, friendly guy from the Midwest, 0:16:25.916 --> 0:16:29.836 also raised Catholic, as was Andy Pettitt. Not that it matters, 0:16:30.036 --> 0:16:32.516 but if you're going to go jesuit on matters of baseball, 0:16:32.716 --> 0:16:34.636 maybe it's more appropriate to stay in the family. 0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:39.956 July seventeenth, nineteen seventy four. I'm pitching against the Montreal 0:16:39.996 --> 0:16:43.396 expos I get right to the point where you're going 0:16:43.476 --> 0:16:48.036 to throw, and I felt this pain in my elbow 0:16:48.156 --> 0:16:49.916 like I've never had in my life. 0:16:50.196 --> 0:16:53.996 That's Tommy John in an ESPN documentary looking back on 0:16:54.036 --> 0:16:55.676 the injury that made him famous. 0:16:56.036 --> 0:17:00.076 And I shake my arm, get the ball back, and 0:17:00.116 --> 0:17:03.876 I throw again in the same pain. Ah, and the 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:05.356 ball goes home. 0:17:05.356 --> 0:17:05.716 Played. 0:17:06.796 --> 0:17:09.996 He's clearly told the story a million times before. He 0:17:10.076 --> 0:17:13.236 has it down the grimace, the aborted throwing motion. 0:17:14.036 --> 0:17:17.476 I go time, I walk off the mound. Wald Austin's 0:17:17.476 --> 0:17:20.276 coming this way, and I said, Walter, I've hurt my arm. 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:21.236 Get somebody in. 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:25.396 Tommy John tore the ulner collateral ligament in his elbow, 0:17:25.836 --> 0:17:28.276 which is a tendon that basically holds your arm together. 0:17:29.036 --> 0:17:32.956 Baseball pitchers are always tearing their ulnar collateral ligament because 0:17:32.956 --> 0:17:35.556 throwing a baseball at ninety five miles per hour is 0:17:35.596 --> 0:17:39.636 an extraordinarily unnatural act. And in that era, the early 0:17:39.716 --> 0:17:42.876 nineteen seventies, if you did that to your elbow, your 0:17:42.916 --> 0:17:47.916 career was over. You'd never pitch again. But John had 0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:52.076 a very resourceful orthopedic surgeon named Frank Job, and Job 0:17:52.276 --> 0:17:55.676 had a brilliant idea. He'd take a very similarly sized 0:17:55.676 --> 0:17:59.276 tendont from the forearm, a tendon that isn't much used, 0:17:59.676 --> 0:18:03.756 and grafted onto John's damaged ligament. John got his brand 0:18:03.756 --> 0:18:06.116 new elbow at the age of thirty one, and he 0:18:06.236 --> 0:18:08.476 ended up pitching in the major leagues until he was 0:18:08.556 --> 0:18:14.556 forty six years old, which is bananas. Other players look 0:18:14.556 --> 0:18:17.476 at how John saved his career and they start asking 0:18:17.516 --> 0:18:21.956 for the same surgery. It becomes epidemic. Close to five 0:18:22.236 --> 0:18:24.996 hundred major league pitchers have thus far had what's now 0:18:25.036 --> 0:18:29.076 called Tommy John surgery. Not to mention thousands of teenagers 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:33.236 and minor league pitchers. Baseball players get Tommy John surgery 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:38.796 the way the rest of us floss our teeth. Okay, 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:41.116 let's look at another standard case. 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:43.676 The pit players along one the right field. 0:18:43.796 --> 0:18:46.476 Forget about it. This one has hitded for New Jersey. 0:18:46.836 --> 0:18:46.996 Hi. 0:18:47.956 --> 0:18:51.676 How about the baseball player Barry Bonds, who's widely believed 0:18:51.676 --> 0:18:53.996 to have used performance enhancing drugs at the end of 0:18:53.996 --> 0:18:54.516 his career. 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:57.116 Harry ms with a spectacular playing run. 0:18:57.196 --> 0:18:57.596 Homer. 0:18:58.156 --> 0:19:01.556 Bonds used to be slender and fast. He became huge 0:19:02.116 --> 0:19:04.716 when Bonds was thirty seven, at an age when most 0:19:04.756 --> 0:19:08.076 baseball players are retired. To Arizona, he had one of 0:19:08.116 --> 0:19:14.276 the greatest seasons for a baseball player ever. Largely because 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:16.836 of Bonds and a dozen or so other stars from 0:19:16.836 --> 0:19:20.796 baseball so called steroid era, the league banned all use 0:19:20.796 --> 0:19:24.236 of pedes. Barry Bonds is the case that most of 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:28.556 us agree is unethical. So in one corner we have 0:19:28.636 --> 0:19:32.556 Tommy John, and in the other corner we have Barry Bonds. 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:37.636 In our taxonomy, who is Andy Pettick closest to Tommy 0:19:37.716 --> 0:19:41.716 John or Barry Bonds to help me figure things out. 0:19:41.956 --> 0:19:44.796 I called up two of the most learned baseball experts 0:19:44.956 --> 0:19:45.596 I could think of. 0:19:45.916 --> 0:19:47.876 Hi, my name is Jonah Carey. I am a writer 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:50.196 for the Athletic and for Sports Net. 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:53.476 Jonah Carey, who was one of those people I suspect 0:19:53.556 --> 0:19:56.596 tried rocket science as a kid, found it too easy 0:19:56.876 --> 0:19:58.916 and took up baseball analytics instead. 0:19:59.556 --> 0:20:02.436 I interviewed doctor Frank job back in two thousand and two, 0:20:02.516 --> 0:20:05.996 I believe, and he said that the big risk of 0:20:06.036 --> 0:20:09.236 this surgery was that if you did it, the person's 0:20:09.236 --> 0:20:13.116 hand would become a claw, which is terrifying. That you 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:16.036 put a new tendon in and essentially it messes with 0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:18.156 the arm so much that you don't even have any 0:20:18.316 --> 0:20:20.716 tactile ability whatsoever. That was the risk. That was the 0:20:20.756 --> 0:20:21.916 risk that Tommy John took. 0:20:22.516 --> 0:20:26.036 Carrie points out that creating a new ulnar collateral tendon 0:20:26.316 --> 0:20:29.516 doesn't make you a better pitcher. It just means that 0:20:29.556 --> 0:20:32.756 you can pitch the way you pitched before. It's restorative. 0:20:33.196 --> 0:20:36.836 The tendon is there as a stabilizer. It essentially allows 0:20:36.876 --> 0:20:41.476 you to use the force that you have and the 0:20:41.556 --> 0:20:43.756 mechanics that you have in the physical strength that you 0:20:43.796 --> 0:20:46.436 have to throw as hard as possible without risk of 0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:48.996 anything happening. It keeps the arm in place. 0:20:49.516 --> 0:20:52.076 There's not a huge amount of difference between Tommy John's 0:20:52.076 --> 0:20:56.916 stats before his surgery and Tommy John's stats after his surgery. 0:20:57.036 --> 0:20:59.836 The surgery turned him back into the Tommy John we 0:20:59.876 --> 0:21:03.836 have always known. That's not the same as Bonds. Bonds 0:21:03.956 --> 0:21:07.036 used drugs that turned him into something new. A man 0:21:07.156 --> 0:21:09.796 who typically hit between thirty and four home runs a 0:21:09.876 --> 0:21:16.356 year suddenly and unexpectedly hit seventy three. Seventy three were 0:21:16.556 --> 0:21:22.236 round all the all time home runs. Next, I called up. 0:21:22.476 --> 0:21:26.916 This is George Will, political commentator, baseball fanatic, and, most 0:21:27.076 --> 0:21:31.036 crucially for our purposes, the son of Professor Frederick Will, 0:21:31.476 --> 0:21:33.556 philosopher and epistemologist. 0:21:33.956 --> 0:21:35.996 Are we now recording? Should I proceed? 0:21:36.436 --> 0:21:37.956 Yes, yes, we're recorded. 0:21:38.076 --> 0:21:38.676 Thank you so much. 0:21:38.916 --> 0:21:40.436 I really appreciate you taking the time. 0:21:40.836 --> 0:21:44.676 Okay, well, it's good fun. I'll always take time to 0:21:44.716 --> 0:21:45.396 talk baseball. 0:21:45.636 --> 0:21:45.956 Okay. 0:21:46.396 --> 0:21:48.516 If you think it sounds like I was calling George 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:51.796 Will from my car, you are entirely correct. He's a 0:21:51.836 --> 0:21:54.356 busy man. I had to take whatever time with him 0:21:54.396 --> 0:21:54.876 I could get. 0:21:55.436 --> 0:21:56.156 Let's look at the. 0:21:56.156 --> 0:22:00.676 Universe of cases that we've had over the last thirty 0:22:00.996 --> 0:22:03.516 years or so, and sort of can we draw a 0:22:03.596 --> 0:22:05.756 line between the ones? Can we sort of put them 0:22:05.756 --> 0:22:09.436 on a continuum from I have a real problem. I 0:22:09.476 --> 0:22:11.876 have less of a problem. So is Bonds at the 0:22:11.916 --> 0:22:12.436 far end? 0:22:13.076 --> 0:22:17.836 Sure? Sure? When Barry Bonds goes to spring training one 0:22:17.916 --> 0:22:20.276 year and he used to wear a size forty two 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:22.676 jersey and now he wears a size fifty two jersey 0:22:23.716 --> 0:22:26.956 and his hat size has gone from seven and an 0:22:26.996 --> 0:22:31.116 eighth to seven on a quarter, that is fundamental structure 0:22:31.156 --> 0:22:36.276 of his body has changed. Then you have to say, 0:22:36.276 --> 0:22:39.796 to compete with Barry Bonds, other people have to be 0:22:39.836 --> 0:22:45.676 willing to put their bodies through this strange transformation. And 0:22:45.756 --> 0:22:47.436 that's not fair somehow. 0:22:49.156 --> 0:22:53.436 So our casuistry tells us that we're fine with restorative interventions, 0:22:53.876 --> 0:22:58.596 but we're dubious of transformative interventions. So who is Andy 0:22:58.596 --> 0:23:03.516 Pettitt closest to Barry Bonds or Tommy john So Pettit, 0:23:04.596 --> 0:23:06.516 we understand you know the story fire better than me. 0:23:06.556 --> 0:23:11.036 We understand that Andy Pettitt, who is a superb pitcher right, Yes, 0:23:11.156 --> 0:23:14.116 at one point he admits that he took human growth 0:23:14.156 --> 0:23:19.036 hormone in order to help recovery from an injury so 0:23:19.076 --> 0:23:22.396 that he could pitch longer. Is that in any way 0:23:22.436 --> 0:23:26.236 different from what Tommy John did? Carrie said he couldn't 0:23:26.276 --> 0:23:29.516 see a difference between the two. Pettitt had an elbow injury, 0:23:29.916 --> 0:23:33.396 just like Tommy John. Pettitt used cutting edge medical science 0:23:33.636 --> 0:23:37.116 to recover from an elbow injury, just like Tommy John. 0:23:37.916 --> 0:23:41.196 Tommy John didn't have multiple surgeries to replace each of 0:23:41.196 --> 0:23:44.196 his body parts with a bionic upgrade. He did it 0:23:44.316 --> 0:23:48.436 once to recover from injury. Pettitt didn't use human growth 0:23:48.436 --> 0:23:52.156 hormone on multiple occasions. He used it to treat a 0:23:52.196 --> 0:23:56.236 specific elbow injury two to four shots over a single 0:23:56.436 --> 0:23:59.276 seven week period when he was on the disabled list. 0:24:00.196 --> 0:24:02.956 And if you look at Andy Pettitt's performance after he 0:24:02.996 --> 0:24:06.876 got himself injected with human growth hormone, it looks almost 0:24:06.916 --> 0:24:10.756 identical to his performance before he injected himself with human 0:24:10.796 --> 0:24:15.836 growth hormone. He briefly used performance enhancing drugs to become 0:24:15.996 --> 0:24:22.916 himself again. Andy Pettitt is Tommy John same case. Did 0:24:22.956 --> 0:24:25.316 you have an opinion on Anti Pettitt. 0:24:27.676 --> 0:24:30.276 Only again, as you say, taking him at his word, 0:24:30.436 --> 0:24:35.436 that a it was only for recovery from exertion, and 0:24:35.636 --> 0:24:39.076 b that if anyone else wanted to match them, they 0:24:39.076 --> 0:24:41.676 would not be putting their health in jeopardy. That seemed 0:24:41.676 --> 0:24:44.036 to me to be benign. 0:24:44.756 --> 0:24:46.676 So why are we so mad at Andy Pettitt for 0:24:46.716 --> 0:24:49.396 doing the same thing as Tommy John? Why are we 0:24:49.396 --> 0:24:54.396 scrutinizing his apology for being insincere? His apology was insincere 0:24:54.716 --> 0:24:58.316 because he had nothing to apologize for, and that little 0:24:58.356 --> 0:25:00.836 bit of hair splitting that got him in so much trouble. 0:25:01.756 --> 0:25:03.956 I never took this to get an edge on anyone. 0:25:04.636 --> 0:25:07.356 I did this to try to get off the DL 0:25:07.596 --> 0:25:08.556 and to do my job. 0:25:09.796 --> 0:25:14.356 That's not hair splitting. That's exactly the point. He didn't 0:25:14.356 --> 0:25:16.676