1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:19,956 --> 00:00:23,236 Speaker 2: On February eighteenth, two thousand and eight, on the first 3 00:00:23,316 --> 00:00:26,956 Speaker 2: day of spring training, a Major League Baseball player named 4 00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:31,396 Speaker 2: Andy Pettitt held a press conference. He was a pitcher who, 5 00:00:31,436 --> 00:00:34,076 Speaker 2: over the course of a long and brilliant career, played 6 00:00:34,076 --> 00:00:37,156 Speaker 2: for the New York Yankees and the Houston Astros. A 7 00:00:37,196 --> 00:00:40,836 Speaker 2: straight arrow, a beloved teammate, one of the good guys. 8 00:00:41,716 --> 00:00:45,116 Speaker 2: But now an investigation by Major League Baseball had found 9 00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:50,396 Speaker 2: that Pettit had, on several occasions used performance enhancing drugs. 10 00:00:51,476 --> 00:00:54,276 Speaker 3: I want to apologize to the New York Yankees and 11 00:00:54,316 --> 00:00:58,676 Speaker 3: to the Houston Astros organizations, and to their fans, and 12 00:00:58,756 --> 00:01:02,076 Speaker 3: to all my teammates and to all of baseball fans 13 00:01:04,076 --> 00:01:06,516 Speaker 3: for the embarrassment I have called them. 14 00:01:06,916 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 2: He reads from notes, his head bowed and shame. 15 00:01:10,716 --> 00:01:13,756 Speaker 3: I also want to tell anyone that is an anti 16 00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 3: Pettitt fan, I am sorry. 17 00:01:16,396 --> 00:01:22,516 Speaker 2: Pettit wanted to come clean, sort of. I'm not that 18 00:01:22,636 --> 00:01:25,196 Speaker 2: much of a baseball fan, but I have to say 19 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:28,476 Speaker 2: I've always been obsessed with his case. Obsessed to the 20 00:01:28,476 --> 00:01:30,836 Speaker 2: point where if you sat next to me on an airplane, 21 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:33,836 Speaker 2: I would bring it up without warning and bend your 22 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:37,356 Speaker 2: ear for a good half hour. First off, what sort 23 00:01:37,356 --> 00:01:41,396 Speaker 2: of bizarre apology is this? I want to apologize for 24 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 2: the embarrassment I caused others others I thought this was 25 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:50,236 Speaker 2: about Andy Pettit and what Andy Pettit did wrong. 26 00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 3: I never took this to get an edge on anyone. 27 00:01:53,996 --> 00:01:56,756 Speaker 3: I did this to try to get off the DL 28 00:01:56,956 --> 00:01:59,956 Speaker 3: and to do my job, and again for that, I 29 00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:01,796 Speaker 3: am sorry for the mistakes I've made. 30 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:07,716 Speaker 2: Pettit says I was injured. I took performance enhancing drugs 31 00:02:07,716 --> 00:02:11,556 Speaker 2: to get healthy, not to get ahead. Does that distinction matter? 32 00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:16,076 Speaker 2: Then he segues into this long thing about his dad, 33 00:02:16,436 --> 00:02:19,156 Speaker 2: who he somehow dragged into the whole mess and now 34 00:02:19,196 --> 00:02:21,876 Speaker 2: wished to drag out of it. He goes on and 35 00:02:21,916 --> 00:02:25,396 Speaker 2: on about his dad's heart problems. It's all very emotional, 36 00:02:25,876 --> 00:02:28,516 Speaker 2: But what does his dad's heart condition have to do 37 00:02:28,596 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 2: with the fact he cheated? At the time, everyone waited 38 00:02:32,836 --> 00:02:37,476 Speaker 2: on Anti Pettitt's public statement, including my favorite, a professor 39 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:40,356 Speaker 2: named Holly Weeks, who in the pages of the Harvard 40 00:02:40,396 --> 00:02:44,716 Speaker 2: Business Review called it a self protective string of explaining 41 00:02:45,196 --> 00:02:49,556 Speaker 2: back padding and minimizing with a small whan apology tucked 42 00:02:49,596 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 2: in ouch. My name is Malcolm Gladwell, you're listening to 43 00:02:57,076 --> 00:03:07,716 Speaker 2: Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 44 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 2: episode is the first of a three part series about 45 00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 2: how to make sense of novel problems. Because what happened 46 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:19,076 Speaker 2: to Andy Pettitt was a novel problem. And if a 47 00:03:19,116 --> 00:03:22,316 Speaker 2: problem is novel, if we've never seen that kind of 48 00:03:22,356 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 2: problem before, how do we know how to think about it. 49 00:03:30,236 --> 00:03:32,916 Speaker 2: I think we're really bad at figuring out novel problems. 50 00:03:33,556 --> 00:03:36,476 Speaker 2: I think we need some help. I have a suggestion, 51 00:03:37,396 --> 00:03:43,476 Speaker 2: So sta you go to Rome to the Church of 52 00:03:43,516 --> 00:03:44,436 Speaker 2: the Jesus. 53 00:03:45,556 --> 00:03:48,436 Speaker 4: In or a seniority. 54 00:03:53,716 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 2: The Church of the Jesu, built in fifteen sixty eight, 55 00:03:58,036 --> 00:04:01,076 Speaker 2: the spiritual home of perhaps the most storied of the 56 00:04:01,116 --> 00:04:05,716 Speaker 2: many separate divisions of the Roman Catholic Church, the Jesuits. 57 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:08,756 Speaker 1: Ferenti. 58 00:04:10,636 --> 00:04:15,716 Speaker 2: It is impossible to describe the interior. It's breathtaking color ornamentation. 59 00:04:16,196 --> 00:04:18,916 Speaker 2: Take one of those standard issue Renaissance cathedrals that you 60 00:04:18,956 --> 00:04:22,836 Speaker 2: can find all over the world, caffeinated heavily. That's the 61 00:04:22,916 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 2: Church of the Jesuit. 62 00:04:25,796 --> 00:04:28,836 Speaker 5: And you can see on one side you can see 63 00:04:29,236 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 5: Saint Ignacians being presented to God by Saint Peter Saint 64 00:04:34,396 --> 00:04:37,956 Speaker 5: Peter was the first pop and Ignatius was the first 65 00:04:38,396 --> 00:04:42,356 Speaker 5: Superior General of the Jesuits. Saint Ignacious is buried there, 66 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:48,076 Speaker 5: while Savior, oh his only his right arm as you 67 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:50,836 Speaker 5: can see on the aldar. This his right arm. You 68 00:04:50,916 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 5: shoes to baptize so. 69 00:04:52,236 --> 00:04:56,996 Speaker 2: Many people, so that only his right armies are where 70 00:04:56,996 --> 00:05:03,716 Speaker 2: he's arrested. In India, the Jesuit order was founded in 71 00:05:03,716 --> 00:05:07,716 Speaker 2: the sixteenth century by Saint Ignatius of Loyola, a Spanish nobleman. 72 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 2: They're famous as the educators of the Roman Catholic Church. 73 00:05:12,116 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 2: There may well be a Loyola High School or university 74 00:05:14,796 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 2: in your town, or a school named after Saint Francis 75 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:23,396 Speaker 2: of Xavier. Another legendary Jesuit, Georgetown University, is a Jesuit school, 76 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:28,716 Speaker 2: so as Boston College. The Jesuits are intellectual, austere, and 77 00:05:28,836 --> 00:05:32,676 Speaker 2: five hundred years ago, the Jesuits pioneered a specific approach 78 00:05:32,716 --> 00:05:36,036 Speaker 2: to solving problems that were new to the world. It's 79 00:05:36,076 --> 00:05:44,756 Speaker 2: called casuistry. I have to admit that I've fallen in 80 00:05:44,796 --> 00:05:48,396 Speaker 2: love with casuistry. In this episode and the two that follow, 81 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:51,276 Speaker 2: I want to explain the beauty and the power of 82 00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:55,116 Speaker 2: the casuistic method. It can help with life and death issues, 83 00:05:55,636 --> 00:05:59,196 Speaker 2: help us resolve some of our most divisive controversies, but 84 00:05:59,316 --> 00:06:06,116 Speaker 2: also smaller things as well. From the Church of the Jesuit, 85 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:08,916 Speaker 2: my guide took me next door to the rooms where 86 00:06:09,156 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 2: ind Ignacious lived. His shoes are still in the bedroom 87 00:06:12,396 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 2: from five hundred years ago, all battered and worn. And 88 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:19,196 Speaker 2: then I walked a few minutes north to Via del Seminario, 89 00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:22,716 Speaker 2: to the graduate school of the Jesuit Order, a magnificent 90 00:06:22,756 --> 00:06:26,516 Speaker 2: building with an enormous sunlit courtyard and a staircase so 91 00:06:26,636 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 2: wide a carriage could drive up it, but not ornate, 92 00:06:30,236 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 2: spare simple. I sat in a small room off the 93 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:37,756 Speaker 2: main entrance, where I imagine Jesuit theologians had been receiving 94 00:06:37,836 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 2: visiting journalists since the late sixteenth century. I would like 95 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:44,916 Speaker 2: my listeners to learn how to think like a Jesuit. 96 00:06:45,156 --> 00:06:55,556 Speaker 6: So here I am, so here I am now. 97 00:06:55,796 --> 00:07:01,436 Speaker 4: Casure Street comes from the word cases in Latin something happened. 98 00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:05,516 Speaker 4: So you give a case, which is a narrative, you 99 00:07:05,596 --> 00:07:07,156 Speaker 4: say something happened. 100 00:07:07,796 --> 00:07:11,156 Speaker 2: That's the theologian I went to see in Rome James Keenan. 101 00:07:11,996 --> 00:07:15,596 Speaker 2: Father Keenan is in his sixties short, reddish hair, a 102 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:18,796 Speaker 2: gracious manner. He was wearing a pair of old sneakers, 103 00:07:19,156 --> 00:07:21,716 Speaker 2: which for some reason struck me as odd. But then 104 00:07:21,756 --> 00:07:25,716 Speaker 2: I remembered Saint Ignatius's battered shoes, and I thought, that's 105 00:07:25,876 --> 00:07:30,436 Speaker 2: very Jesuit. Keenan says the Jesuit way of approaching problems 106 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:32,516 Speaker 2: is a function of what they were asked to do 107 00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:35,996 Speaker 2: for the church. The sixteenth century, when the Jesuits get 108 00:07:36,036 --> 00:07:39,516 Speaker 2: their start, is the age of colonial expansion. The West 109 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:44,316 Speaker 2: is being explored, the East is opening up Columbus, Magellan, Cortes, 110 00:07:44,956 --> 00:07:47,716 Speaker 2: and it's the Jesuits to go out with these expeditions. 111 00:07:48,396 --> 00:07:52,356 Speaker 2: The Pope asked them to be his emissaries to the world, diplomats, businessmen. 112 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:55,876 Speaker 2: And if you're out on the road thousands of miles 113 00:07:55,916 --> 00:07:59,596 Speaker 2: from Rome, encountering new people and new things, you start 114 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:02,836 Speaker 2: to think differently. How could you not You're not sitting 115 00:08:02,876 --> 00:08:06,236 Speaker 2: behind the walls of a monastery in splendid isolation. You 116 00:08:06,316 --> 00:08:10,196 Speaker 2: have to be practical, pragmatic and Augustine, one of the 117 00:08:10,196 --> 00:08:13,276 Speaker 2: greatest of early Christian thinkers, thought that the biblical commandment 118 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:17,596 Speaker 2: thou shalt not lie was absolute. You should never lie, ever, 119 00:08:18,356 --> 00:08:20,716 Speaker 2: but that's not very helpful to a Jesuit in the 120 00:08:20,756 --> 00:08:23,876 Speaker 2: sixteenth century in a place like say England. 121 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:28,516 Speaker 4: Now, say you're in England and Queen Elizabeth is the queen, 122 00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 4: and she's not recognized as the sovereign by the Catholics, 123 00:08:32,956 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 4: and you've just arisseed as a priest. And if you 124 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:38,596 Speaker 4: tell the soldier that you're a priest, you're going to 125 00:08:38,596 --> 00:08:38,956 Speaker 4: be dead. 126 00:08:40,356 --> 00:08:42,716 Speaker 2: So is it moral to lie if you're being asked 127 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 2: if you're a Catholic When answering truthfully means that you're dead. 128 00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:49,956 Speaker 2: That kind of question is just a beginning. 129 00:08:50,476 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 4: There's never been international law because everybody had their own countries. 130 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:56,556 Speaker 4: Now they're finding out that there are not only new 131 00:08:56,636 --> 00:08:59,076 Speaker 4: lands that have never been explored, but there are people 132 00:08:59,116 --> 00:09:03,356 Speaker 4: in those lands. What jurisdictions are they, What questions of sovereignty, 133 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:07,276 Speaker 4: what questions of prerogatives are there? And a whole host 134 00:09:07,316 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 4: of questions arise that are political and governmental, and that's 135 00:09:11,556 --> 00:09:13,676 Speaker 4: going to raise well, how do you make a decision 136 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:14,196 Speaker 4: about this? 137 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:19,356 Speaker 2: In response, the Jesuits reach a really important conclusion, which 138 00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:21,996 Speaker 2: is that when it comes to new problems, you can't 139 00:09:21,996 --> 00:09:26,676 Speaker 2: start by appealing to a principle. Principles don't help because 140 00:09:26,716 --> 00:09:30,516 Speaker 2: principles are the product of past experience, and they're only 141 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:32,636 Speaker 2: helpful so long as you're still living in the world. 142 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 2: Those past experiences help create When you're confronted with a 143 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:42,676 Speaker 2: situation you haven't encountered before, then you in uncharted territory. 144 00:09:42,796 --> 00:09:46,676 Speaker 2: In those situations, the Jesuits argue, you have to proceed 145 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:52,076 Speaker 2: on a case by case basis. Now what does that mean? Well, 146 00:09:52,116 --> 00:09:55,116 Speaker 2: to give just one example, there was a huge controversy 147 00:09:55,196 --> 00:09:59,236 Speaker 2: over maritime shipping in the sixteenth century. Keenan has studied 148 00:09:59,236 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 2: it extensively. The Catholic Church in those days had an 149 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:08,356 Speaker 2: absolute prohibition against usury. It was immoral to charge any 150 00:10:08,396 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 2: interest on a When that prohibition was enacted centuries before 151 00:10:13,916 --> 00:10:17,756 Speaker 2: it made sense. Many loans were from wealthy people lending 152 00:10:17,796 --> 00:10:21,316 Speaker 2: to desperately poor farmers, and the farmers were being exploited. 153 00:10:22,196 --> 00:10:25,236 Speaker 2: But in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, as the world 154 00:10:25,316 --> 00:10:30,716 Speaker 2: opened up, merchants started shipping valuable cargoes overseas tea, furs 155 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:33,516 Speaker 2: from the New World, sugar rum and they wanted to 156 00:10:33,516 --> 00:10:37,276 Speaker 2: buy insurance on their cargo. But was the premium that 157 00:10:37,356 --> 00:10:41,356 Speaker 2: someone might pay an insurance carrier usury it was a 158 00:10:41,436 --> 00:10:43,916 Speaker 2: huge issue than the Church at the time. Many said 159 00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:48,396 Speaker 2: it was usury, but the Jesuits replied, no, insurance is 160 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:52,156 Speaker 2: a novel problem, and you can't solve novel problems with 161 00:10:52,276 --> 00:10:53,116 Speaker 2: old principles. 162 00:10:53,636 --> 00:10:57,396 Speaker 4: Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century wrote that a general 163 00:10:57,476 --> 00:11:01,236 Speaker 4: rule applies generally, and the more you descend into the particulars, 164 00:11:01,596 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 4: the more it's no longer a general rule. 165 00:11:05,116 --> 00:11:09,316 Speaker 2: Descend into the particulars, understand what is distinctive about the 166 00:11:09,356 --> 00:11:13,436 Speaker 2: case under consideration. That's what the Jesuits started to do. 167 00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:19,036 Speaker 2: How First they would find a standard case. That is 168 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 2: a case that's in the same general territory where we've 169 00:11:22,436 --> 00:11:26,956 Speaker 2: already reached agreement. So usury looks like an insurance premium, 170 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 2: and everyone agrees that usury is wrong. That's a standard case. 171 00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 2: The Jesuit say, though, there's another relevant standard case. Think 172 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:38,356 Speaker 2: of the captain of the ship. He's also a kind 173 00:11:38,396 --> 00:11:41,996 Speaker 2: of insurance. People pay him something like a premium to 174 00:11:42,076 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 2: make sure the ship travels safely from point A to 175 00:11:44,996 --> 00:11:49,756 Speaker 2: point B, and everyone agrees the captain is a good idea. Next, 176 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 2: the Jesuits create what they call a taxonomy. They ask 177 00:11:53,516 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 2: how close does the case in question come to the 178 00:11:56,636 --> 00:12:01,196 Speaker 2: standard cases. So is the premium paid for maritime insurance 179 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:04,156 Speaker 2: more like something you would pay a loan shark, or 180 00:12:04,236 --> 00:12:06,196 Speaker 2: more like the money you would pay for a good captain. 181 00:12:07,076 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 4: So they keep looking for all sorts of similarities, and 182 00:12:10,396 --> 00:12:13,076 Speaker 4: then they look for where's the breaking point, where is 183 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:14,516 Speaker 4: it no longer legitimate? 184 00:12:15,636 --> 00:12:18,436 Speaker 2: And in the case of maritime insurance, the Jesuits say, 185 00:12:18,876 --> 00:12:22,436 Speaker 2: insurance doesn't look that much like usury. It looks like 186 00:12:22,476 --> 00:12:25,356 Speaker 2: the captain. The captain is there to make sure the 187 00:12:25,356 --> 00:12:28,796 Speaker 2: ship gets from A to B safely. Insurance is there 188 00:12:28,836 --> 00:12:31,356 Speaker 2: to make sure the value of the cargo gets from 189 00:12:31,396 --> 00:12:34,756 Speaker 2: A to B safely. Do you see how brilliant that is? 190 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:38,956 Speaker 2: Everyone was going in circles around this question, and principles 191 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 2: weren't helping. One side shouting Pope Gregory the Ninth ruled 192 00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 2: on this in twelve eighty seven, the other side accusing 193 00:12:45,956 --> 00:12:48,236 Speaker 2: the Church of being stuck in the past. There are 194 00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:52,156 Speaker 2: pirates out there, round and round and round. Jesuits just 195 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:57,116 Speaker 2: say stop, let's break it down step by step. Maritime 196 00:12:57,156 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 2: insurance is just another kind of captain, and we're all 197 00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 2: in favor of captains, right. I was not raised as 198 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 2: a Catholic. This was all new to me. Love, So next, 199 00:13:11,236 --> 00:13:13,676 Speaker 2: let's go jesuit on the case of Andy Pattit. 200 00:13:23,956 --> 00:13:27,876 Speaker 7: For more than a decade, there has been widespread illegal 201 00:13:27,996 --> 00:13:33,756 Speaker 7: use of anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing substances by 202 00:13:33,876 --> 00:13:35,916 Speaker 7: players in Major League baseball. 203 00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:40,116 Speaker 2: In January of two thousand and seven, George Mitchell, former 204 00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 2: Senate Majority leader, former key negotiator in the Northern Ireland 205 00:13:43,756 --> 00:13:48,076 Speaker 2: Peace Process, testified before Congress on the results of his 206 00:13:48,156 --> 00:13:52,436 Speaker 2: twenty month investigation into the use of performance enhancing drugs 207 00:13:52,476 --> 00:13:53,116 Speaker 2: in baseball. 208 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 7: The evidence we uncovered indicates that this has not been 209 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 7: an isolated problem involving just a few players or a 210 00:14:02,796 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 7: few clubs. 211 00:14:04,756 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 2: The Mitchell report was four hundred and nine pages long. 212 00:14:08,356 --> 00:14:12,836 Speaker 2: It named countless baseball players as illegal drug users, including 213 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:17,716 Speaker 2: on page two hundred and twenty four, Andy Pettit. The 214 00:14:17,756 --> 00:14:21,516 Speaker 2: allegation came from one of Pett's closest friends, his trainer, 215 00:14:21,796 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 2: Brian McNamee. Quote from April twenty first to June fourteenth, 216 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:32,036 Speaker 2: two thousand and two, Pettitt was on the disabled list 217 00:14:32,276 --> 00:14:36,836 Speaker 2: with elbow tendinitis. Macname traveled to Tampa at Pettit's request 218 00:14:37,156 --> 00:14:41,036 Speaker 2: and spent about ten days assisting Pettit with his rehabilitation. 219 00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 2: Macname recalled that he injected Pettit with human growth hormone 220 00:14:45,756 --> 00:14:50,756 Speaker 2: on two to four occasions. The year before, the same 221 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:54,396 Speaker 2: allegation about Pettitt had surfaced in a news report. Pettitt 222 00:14:54,396 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 2: had denied everything, but now baseball was in turmoil over 223 00:14:57,476 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 2: performance enhancing drugs. Names were being named. Pettit was forced 224 00:15:01,796 --> 00:15:02,396 Speaker 2: to come clean. 225 00:15:06,076 --> 00:15:08,836 Speaker 3: I want to apologize to the New York Yankees and 226 00:15:08,876 --> 00:15:12,516 Speaker 3: to the as Houston Astros organizations and to their fans, 227 00:15:13,196 --> 00:15:16,196 Speaker 3: and to all my teammates and to all of baseball 228 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:19,796 Speaker 3: fans for the embarrassment I have called them. 229 00:15:20,436 --> 00:15:24,476 Speaker 2: But then the apology isn't good enough. People get upset 230 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 2: at him. He gets defensive, round and round. You deny, 231 00:15:28,036 --> 00:15:31,716 Speaker 2: you get caught, you apologize. The apology doesn't work, the 232 00:15:31,756 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 2: same circus that happens with all these cases. Okay, but 233 00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 2: what would the Jesuit say? They would say, Wait, this 234 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:47,276 Speaker 2: is a novel problem. Baseball players using genetically engineered hormones 235 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:51,316 Speaker 2: to heal injuries isn't something that's happened before. Our set 236 00:15:51,356 --> 00:15:54,996 Speaker 2: of existing principles do not help us. This is a 237 00:15:55,036 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 2: time for casuistry. So are there standard cases out there, 238 00:16:01,196 --> 00:16:04,956 Speaker 2: something reasonably analogous that we all agree on to help 239 00:16:05,036 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 2: us make sense of this novel problem. It turns out 240 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:15,156 Speaker 2: there are standard case number one, a pitcher named Tommy John. 241 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 2: Perhaps you've heard of him. Tommy John was very good, 242 00:16:18,876 --> 00:16:21,876 Speaker 2: as good as Pettit. He played for the Los Angeles 243 00:16:21,876 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 2: Dodgers and the Yankees. A big, friendly guy from the Midwest, 244 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 2: also raised Catholic, as was Andy Pettitt. Not that it matters, 245 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:32,516 Speaker 2: but if you're going to go jesuit on matters of baseball, 246 00:16:32,716 --> 00:16:34,636 Speaker 2: maybe it's more appropriate to stay in the family. 247 00:16:36,796 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 8: July seventeenth, nineteen seventy four. I'm pitching against the Montreal 248 00:16:39,996 --> 00:16:43,396 Speaker 8: expos I get right to the point where you're going 249 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 8: to throw, and I felt this pain in my elbow 250 00:16:48,156 --> 00:16:49,916 Speaker 8: like I've never had in my life. 251 00:16:50,196 --> 00:16:53,996 Speaker 2: That's Tommy John in an ESPN documentary looking back on 252 00:16:54,036 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 2: the injury that made him famous. 253 00:16:56,036 --> 00:17:00,076 Speaker 8: And I shake my arm, get the ball back, and 254 00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:03,876 Speaker 8: I throw again in the same pain. Ah, and the 255 00:17:03,996 --> 00:17:05,356 Speaker 8: ball goes home. 256 00:17:05,356 --> 00:17:05,716 Speaker 1: Played. 257 00:17:06,796 --> 00:17:09,996 Speaker 2: He's clearly told the story a million times before. He 258 00:17:10,076 --> 00:17:13,236 Speaker 2: has it down the grimace, the aborted throwing motion. 259 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 8: I go time, I walk off the mound. Wald Austin's 260 00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:20,276 Speaker 8: coming this way, and I said, Walter, I've hurt my arm. 261 00:17:20,356 --> 00:17:21,236 Speaker 8: Get somebody in. 262 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:25,396 Speaker 2: Tommy John tore the ulner collateral ligament in his elbow, 263 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 2: which is a tendon that basically holds your arm together. 264 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:32,956 Speaker 2: Baseball pitchers are always tearing their ulnar collateral ligament because 265 00:17:32,956 --> 00:17:35,556 Speaker 2: throwing a baseball at ninety five miles per hour is 266 00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 2: an extraordinarily unnatural act. And in that era, the early 267 00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, if you did that to your elbow, your 268 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 2: career was over. You'd never pitch again. But John had 269 00:17:47,916 --> 00:17:52,076 Speaker 2: a very resourceful orthopedic surgeon named Frank Job, and Job 270 00:17:52,276 --> 00:17:55,676 Speaker 2: had a brilliant idea. He'd take a very similarly sized 271 00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 2: tendont from the forearm, a tendon that isn't much used, 272 00:17:59,676 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 2: and grafted onto John's damaged ligament. John got his brand 273 00:18:03,756 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 2: new elbow at the age of thirty one, and he 274 00:18:06,236 --> 00:18:08,476 Speaker 2: ended up pitching in the major leagues until he was 275 00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:14,556 Speaker 2: forty six years old, which is bananas. Other players look 276 00:18:14,556 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 2: at how John saved his career and they start asking 277 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:21,956 Speaker 2: for the same surgery. It becomes epidemic. Close to five 278 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:24,996 Speaker 2: hundred major league pitchers have thus far had what's now 279 00:18:25,036 --> 00:18:29,076 Speaker 2: called Tommy John surgery. Not to mention thousands of teenagers 280 00:18:29,116 --> 00:18:33,236 Speaker 2: and minor league pitchers. Baseball players get Tommy John surgery 281 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:38,796 Speaker 2: the way the rest of us floss our teeth. Okay, 282 00:18:39,196 --> 00:18:41,116 Speaker 2: let's look at another standard case. 283 00:18:41,836 --> 00:18:43,676 Speaker 8: The pit players along one the right field. 284 00:18:43,796 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 9: Forget about it. This one has hitded for New Jersey. 285 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:46,996 Speaker 10: Hi. 286 00:18:47,956 --> 00:18:51,676 Speaker 2: How about the baseball player Barry Bonds, who's widely believed 287 00:18:51,676 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 2: to have used performance enhancing drugs at the end of 288 00:18:53,996 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 2: his career. 289 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 4: Harry ms with a spectacular playing run. 290 00:18:57,196 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 10: Homer. 291 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 2: Bonds used to be slender and fast. He became huge 292 00:19:02,116 --> 00:19:04,716 Speaker 2: when Bonds was thirty seven, at an age when most 293 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:08,076 Speaker 2: baseball players are retired. To Arizona, he had one of 294 00:19:08,116 --> 00:19:14,276 Speaker 2: the greatest seasons for a baseball player ever. Largely because 295 00:19:14,316 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 2: of Bonds and a dozen or so other stars from 296 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:20,796 Speaker 2: baseball so called steroid era, the league banned all use 297 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 2: of pedes. Barry Bonds is the case that most of 298 00:19:24,316 --> 00:19:28,556 Speaker 2: us agree is unethical. So in one corner we have 299 00:19:28,636 --> 00:19:32,556 Speaker 2: Tommy John, and in the other corner we have Barry Bonds. 300 00:19:32,956 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 2: In our taxonomy, who is Andy Pettick closest to Tommy 301 00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:41,716 Speaker 2: John or Barry Bonds to help me figure things out. 302 00:19:41,956 --> 00:19:44,796 Speaker 2: I called up two of the most learned baseball experts 303 00:19:44,956 --> 00:19:45,596 Speaker 2: I could think of. 304 00:19:45,916 --> 00:19:47,876 Speaker 11: Hi, my name is Jonah Carey. I am a writer 305 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 11: for the Athletic and for Sports Net. 306 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 2: Jonah Carey, who was one of those people I suspect 307 00:19:53,556 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 2: tried rocket science as a kid, found it too easy 308 00:19:56,876 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 2: and took up baseball analytics instead. 309 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:02,436 Speaker 11: I interviewed doctor Frank job back in two thousand and two, 310 00:20:02,516 --> 00:20:05,996 Speaker 11: I believe, and he said that the big risk of 311 00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 11: this surgery was that if you did it, the person's 312 00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:13,116 Speaker 11: hand would become a claw, which is terrifying. That you 313 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:16,036 Speaker 11: put a new tendon in and essentially it messes with 314 00:20:16,076 --> 00:20:18,156 Speaker 11: the arm so much that you don't even have any 315 00:20:18,316 --> 00:20:20,716 Speaker 11: tactile ability whatsoever. That was the risk. That was the 316 00:20:20,756 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 11: risk that Tommy John took. 317 00:20:22,516 --> 00:20:26,036 Speaker 2: Carrie points out that creating a new ulnar collateral tendon 318 00:20:26,316 --> 00:20:29,516 Speaker 2: doesn't make you a better pitcher. It just means that 319 00:20:29,556 --> 00:20:32,756 Speaker 2: you can pitch the way you pitched before. It's restorative. 320 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 9: The tendon is there as a stabilizer. It essentially allows 321 00:20:36,876 --> 00:20:41,476 Speaker 9: you to use the force that you have and the 322 00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:43,756 Speaker 9: mechanics that you have in the physical strength that you 323 00:20:43,796 --> 00:20:46,436 Speaker 9: have to throw as hard as possible without risk of 324 00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:48,996 Speaker 9: anything happening. It keeps the arm in place. 325 00:20:49,516 --> 00:20:52,076 Speaker 2: There's not a huge amount of difference between Tommy John's 326 00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:56,916 Speaker 2: stats before his surgery and Tommy John's stats after his surgery. 327 00:20:57,036 --> 00:20:59,836 Speaker 2: The surgery turned him back into the Tommy John we 328 00:20:59,876 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 2: have always known. That's not the same as Bonds. Bonds 329 00:21:03,956 --> 00:21:07,036 Speaker 2: used drugs that turned him into something new. A man 330 00:21:07,156 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 2: who typically hit between thirty and four home runs a 331 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:16,356 Speaker 2: year suddenly and unexpectedly hit seventy three. Seventy three were 332 00:21:16,556 --> 00:21:22,236 Speaker 2: round all the all time home runs. Next, I called up. 333 00:21:22,476 --> 00:21:26,916 Speaker 2: This is George Will, political commentator, baseball fanatic, and, most 334 00:21:27,076 --> 00:21:31,036 Speaker 2: crucially for our purposes, the son of Professor Frederick Will, 335 00:21:31,476 --> 00:21:33,556 Speaker 2: philosopher and epistemologist. 336 00:21:33,956 --> 00:21:35,996 Speaker 1: Are we now recording? Should I proceed? 337 00:21:36,436 --> 00:21:37,956 Speaker 11: Yes, yes, we're recorded. 338 00:21:38,076 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 339 00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 6: I really appreciate you taking the time. 340 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:44,676 Speaker 1: Okay, well, it's good fun. I'll always take time to 341 00:21:44,716 --> 00:21:45,396 Speaker 1: talk baseball. 342 00:21:45,636 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 11: Okay. 343 00:21:46,396 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 2: If you think it sounds like I was calling George 344 00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,796 Speaker 2: Will from my car, you are entirely correct. He's a 345 00:21:51,836 --> 00:21:54,356 Speaker 2: busy man. I had to take whatever time with him 346 00:21:54,396 --> 00:21:54,876 Speaker 2: I could get. 347 00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:56,156 Speaker 6: Let's look at the. 348 00:21:56,156 --> 00:22:00,676 Speaker 2: Universe of cases that we've had over the last thirty 349 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:03,516 Speaker 2: years or so, and sort of can we draw a 350 00:22:03,596 --> 00:22:05,756 Speaker 2: line between the ones? Can we sort of put them 351 00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:09,436 Speaker 2: on a continuum from I have a real problem. I 352 00:22:09,476 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 2: have less of a problem. So is Bonds at the 353 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:12,436 Speaker 2: far end? 354 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:17,836 Speaker 1: Sure? Sure? When Barry Bonds goes to spring training one 355 00:22:17,916 --> 00:22:20,276 Speaker 1: year and he used to wear a size forty two 356 00:22:20,356 --> 00:22:22,676 Speaker 1: jersey and now he wears a size fifty two jersey 357 00:22:23,716 --> 00:22:26,956 Speaker 1: and his hat size has gone from seven and an 358 00:22:26,996 --> 00:22:31,116 Speaker 1: eighth to seven on a quarter, that is fundamental structure 359 00:22:31,156 --> 00:22:36,276 Speaker 1: of his body has changed. Then you have to say, 360 00:22:36,276 --> 00:22:39,796 Speaker 1: to compete with Barry Bonds, other people have to be 361 00:22:39,836 --> 00:22:45,676 Speaker 1: willing to put their bodies through this strange transformation. And 362 00:22:45,756 --> 00:22:47,436 Speaker 1: that's not fair somehow. 363 00:22:49,156 --> 00:22:53,436 Speaker 2: So our casuistry tells us that we're fine with restorative interventions, 364 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:58,596 Speaker 2: but we're dubious of transformative interventions. So who is Andy 365 00:22:58,596 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 2: Pettitt closest to Barry Bonds or Tommy john So Pettit, 366 00:23:04,596 --> 00:23:06,516 Speaker 2: we understand you know the story fire better than me. 367 00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:11,036 Speaker 2: We understand that Andy Pettitt, who is a superb pitcher right, Yes, 368 00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,116 Speaker 2: at one point he admits that he took human growth 369 00:23:14,156 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 2: hormone in order to help recovery from an injury so 370 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:22,396 Speaker 2: that he could pitch longer. Is that in any way 371 00:23:22,436 --> 00:23:26,236 Speaker 2: different from what Tommy John did? Carrie said he couldn't 372 00:23:26,276 --> 00:23:29,516 Speaker 2: see a difference between the two. Pettitt had an elbow injury, 373 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 2: just like Tommy John. Pettitt used cutting edge medical science 374 00:23:33,636 --> 00:23:37,116 Speaker 2: to recover from an elbow injury, just like Tommy John. 375 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:41,196 Speaker 2: Tommy John didn't have multiple surgeries to replace each of 376 00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:44,196 Speaker 2: his body parts with a bionic upgrade. He did it 377 00:23:44,316 --> 00:23:48,436 Speaker 2: once to recover from injury. Pettitt didn't use human growth 378 00:23:48,436 --> 00:23:52,156 Speaker 2: hormone on multiple occasions. He used it to treat a 379 00:23:52,196 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 2: specific elbow injury two to four shots over a single 380 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:59,276 Speaker 2: seven week period when he was on the disabled list. 381 00:24:00,196 --> 00:24:02,956 Speaker 2: And if you look at Andy Pettitt's performance after he 382 00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 2: got himself injected with human growth hormone, it looks almost 383 00:24:06,916 --> 00:24:10,756 Speaker 2: identical to his performance before he injected himself with human 384 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:15,836 Speaker 2: growth hormone. He briefly used performance enhancing drugs to become 385 00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 2: himself again. Andy Pettitt is Tommy John same case. Did 386 00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:25,316 Speaker 2: you have an opinion on Anti Pettitt. 387 00:24:27,676 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: Only again, as you say, taking him at his word, 388 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:35,436 Speaker 1: that a it was only for recovery from exertion, and 389 00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:39,076 Speaker 1: b that if anyone else wanted to match them, they 390 00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,676 Speaker 1: would not be putting their health in jeopardy. That seemed 391 00:24:41,676 --> 00:24:44,036 Speaker 1: to me to be benign. 392 00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:46,676 Speaker 2: So why are we so mad at Andy Pettitt for 393 00:24:46,716 --> 00:24:49,396 Speaker 2: doing the same thing as Tommy John? Why are we 394 00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:54,396 Speaker 2: scrutinizing his apology for being insincere? His apology was insincere 395 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:58,316 Speaker 2: because he had nothing to apologize for, and that little 396 00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 2: bit of hair splitting that got him in so much trouble. 397 00:25:01,756 --> 00:25:03,956 Speaker 3: I never took this to get an edge on anyone. 398 00:25:04,636 --> 00:25:07,356 Speaker 3: I did this to try to get off the DL 399 00:25:07,596 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 3: and to do my job. 400 00:25:09,796 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 2: That's not hair splitting. That's exactly the point. He didn't 401 00:25:14,356 --> 00:25:16,676 Speaker 2: do it to get an edge, and that's why it's okay. 402 00:25:17,556 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 2: Why is it okay if someone operates on my elbow, 403 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:24,116 Speaker 2: but not okay if someone injects my elbow with a syringe. 404 00:25:24,876 --> 00:25:28,316 Speaker 2: Is there a philosophical distinction between a scalpel and a 405 00:25:28,356 --> 00:25:29,716 Speaker 2: syringe that I somehow missed? 406 00:25:30,276 --> 00:25:31,276 Speaker 8: I'm going to turn now of that. 407 00:25:31,356 --> 00:25:34,676 Speaker 10: Barry Bond's verdict the Baseball Star's trial over steroid used 408 00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:37,276 Speaker 10: Andy yesterday and he's been found guilty of at least and. 409 00:25:37,196 --> 00:25:41,196 Speaker 2: What about Barry Bonds. This little bit of casuistry tells 410 00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:44,396 Speaker 2: us that our problem with Bonds isn't one of principle. 411 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:48,836 Speaker 2: Bonds isn't wrong because he used performance enhancing drugs, and 412 00:25:48,956 --> 00:25:52,636 Speaker 2: using performance enhancing drugs is always wrong. No, the issue 413 00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:55,836 Speaker 2: is how he used drugs. Barry Bonds would have been 414 00:25:55,836 --> 00:25:59,476 Speaker 2: okay if he had just dialed it back done what 415 00:25:59,596 --> 00:26:02,516 Speaker 2: Tommy John and Andy Pettitt did, which is to use 416 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:05,516 Speaker 2: medical science to smooth out the bumps at the end 417 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 2: of their careers. Barry, next time, don't hit seventy three homers. 418 00:26:11,156 --> 00:26:14,276 Speaker 9: If there were a way to ramp this up gradually, 419 00:26:14,316 --> 00:26:16,556 Speaker 9: where okay, hit twenty seven home runs and then at 420 00:26:16,556 --> 00:26:19,596 Speaker 9: thirty thirty five whatever, if there was some general progression 421 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:21,276 Speaker 9: going on, I could kind. 422 00:26:21,116 --> 00:26:21,556 Speaker 11: Of see it. 423 00:26:21,676 --> 00:26:23,036 Speaker 2: Jonah Carey was clear on this. 424 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:23,676 Speaker 11: Right. 425 00:26:23,716 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 2: If at thirty seven he turns himself into a bulkier 426 00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,596 Speaker 2: power player without the speed you know, who walks a 427 00:26:32,636 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 2: lot and is hitting thirty homers a year, He's not 428 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:38,036 Speaker 2: only just in the hall in an instant, he's one 429 00:26:38,076 --> 00:26:39,996 Speaker 2: of the greatest prayers of all time. Right, without any 430 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:44,716 Speaker 2: we're all celebrating Barry Bonds. If that happens. Before my 431 00:26:44,836 --> 00:26:48,516 Speaker 2: conversation with Jonah Carey, I'd never thought about bonds that way. 432 00:26:49,196 --> 00:26:53,836 Speaker 2: That's what casuistry does. It reframes the problem, and it 433 00:26:53,876 --> 00:26:55,476 Speaker 2: says that there is a way to make sense of 434 00:26:55,516 --> 00:27:02,436 Speaker 2: difficult problems without retreating into the trenches of principle. Will 435 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:04,956 Speaker 2: and carry reminded me of a story the philosopher Stephen 436 00:27:04,996 --> 00:27:09,516 Speaker 2: Tullman once told. Tulman was a casualist. He was a 437 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:12,996 Speaker 2: National Ethics Commission one of those Blue ribbon all star 438 00:27:13,036 --> 00:27:17,316 Speaker 2: groups that consider witty topics like euthanasia. The group was 439 00:27:17,396 --> 00:27:20,436 Speaker 2: drawn from every walk of life, but he convinced them 440 00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 2: to work case by case the Jesuit way, and lo 441 00:27:24,196 --> 00:27:27,556 Speaker 2: and behold, they all agreed. It was only at the 442 00:27:27,716 --> 00:27:30,756 Speaker 2: end of their deliberations when everyone was asked to explain 443 00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:34,476 Speaker 2: the principles that underlay their decisions, when they all disagreed. 444 00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 2: Suddenly they were all shouting at each other, which made 445 00:27:38,636 --> 00:27:43,036 Speaker 2: Toulmann wonder, if all principles do is divide us, why 446 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 2: do we bother talking about them at all? Oh and 447 00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 2: while we're on the subject of Stephen Toulman, let me 448 00:27:49,836 --> 00:27:51,876 Speaker 2: share with you this little bit from an interview he 449 00:27:51,916 --> 00:27:55,716 Speaker 2: did years ago that I stumbled across on YouTube. 450 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 12: I mean, quite often when I'm teaching, I take my 451 00:27:59,596 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 12: dogs into class and they sit quietly while I lecture. 452 00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:05,996 Speaker 12: But I don't like to take them in when I'm 453 00:28:06,036 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 12: lecturing on Dick Copt because I'm compelled to say that 454 00:28:09,356 --> 00:28:13,036 Speaker 12: Descartes thought the dogs were nearly machines, and this is 455 00:28:13,076 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 12: an insult I'm not prepared to expose them to in 456 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 12: my presence. I mean, I think it's And the one 457 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:21,636 Speaker 12: thing I'm quite sure is that Descartes never owned a dog. 458 00:28:22,436 --> 00:28:27,436 Speaker 2: Descartes was a man of abstract principles. I think therefore, 459 00:28:27,476 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 2: I am Toulman was a casuist who brought his dogs 460 00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:34,796 Speaker 2: to his philosophy lectures and assumed they were following along. 461 00:28:35,636 --> 00:28:45,476 Speaker 2: I mean, whose side do you want? This is a 462 00:28:45,996 --> 00:28:49,796 Speaker 2: sat question. The Jesuits art of the Catholic Church as 463 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:52,916 Speaker 2: X is to why is it like the Marine Corps 464 00:28:52,996 --> 00:28:54,036 Speaker 2: is to the military. What it? 465 00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:57,076 Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah, they calls the Pope's Marines. 466 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:02,116 Speaker 2: James Martin, Jesuit priest, writer, editor at large of the 467 00:29:02,156 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 2: Jesuit magazine America. 468 00:29:04,356 --> 00:29:06,916 Speaker 10: But the other, the other line is you probably heard 469 00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:09,076 Speaker 10: this if you've met one jesuit. You've met one jesuit. 470 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:14,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, Martin is very twenty first century jesuit. He looks 471 00:29:15,036 --> 00:29:18,596 Speaker 2: like he runs marathons, very energetic. He's two hundred and 472 00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:22,356 Speaker 2: forty six thousand Twitter followers. I asked him to talk 473 00:29:22,396 --> 00:29:25,956 Speaker 2: to me about casuistry because it's obviously been applied to 474 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:30,436 Speaker 2: much more troubling situations than ethics in professional baseball. And 475 00:29:30,516 --> 00:29:33,716 Speaker 2: he told me a story. It was about the aftermath 476 00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:36,476 Speaker 2: of that terrible shooting a few years ago at the 477 00:29:36,476 --> 00:29:40,876 Speaker 2: Pulse nightclub in Orlando, Florida. Across America tonight an emotional 478 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:44,076 Speaker 2: response and here in Orlando, hundreds of people lining up 479 00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,956 Speaker 2: all day long to donate their own blood after so 480 00:29:47,116 --> 00:29:51,396 Speaker 2: much bloodshed. Martin heard about it like all of us did, 481 00:29:51,916 --> 00:29:52,956 Speaker 2: and was devastated. 482 00:29:53,676 --> 00:29:56,396 Speaker 10: And I didn't quite get at the beginning that it 483 00:29:56,436 --> 00:29:58,676 Speaker 10: was a gay nightclub, and you know, it was at 484 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:01,396 Speaker 10: the time the largest mass shooting in US history, forty 485 00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:03,676 Speaker 10: nine people. And so I was, you know, Paul, as 486 00:30:03,716 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 10: everybody else was. And truly I waited for responses from 487 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:12,276 Speaker 10: the USCCB, the US Bishop's Conference, because I knew that 488 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:16,876 Speaker 10: in every other instance before that and since that the 489 00:30:16,916 --> 00:30:19,516 Speaker 10: bishop's conference and the local bishops come out immediately with 490 00:30:19,596 --> 00:30:22,076 Speaker 10: this statement, you know, we stand with our brothers and 491 00:30:22,116 --> 00:30:24,876 Speaker 10: sisters wherever in Texas, and this Methodist church and this 492 00:30:24,956 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 10: stopping mall wherever, we are with you. Nothing radio silence. 493 00:30:30,636 --> 00:30:33,956 Speaker 10: I really couldn't believe it, and I thought they can't 494 00:30:33,996 --> 00:30:37,276 Speaker 10: even rouse themselves to say they're sorry. 495 00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:40,836 Speaker 2: Do you think it was deliberate like that or was it? 496 00:30:40,996 --> 00:30:41,196 Speaker 11: No? 497 00:30:41,276 --> 00:30:44,956 Speaker 10: You know one of my professors of more or theology 498 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:47,276 Speaker 10: at Boston College who I think you'd really like in 499 00:30:47,396 --> 00:30:49,916 Speaker 10: terms of his writing, Jim Keenan. 500 00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:50,716 Speaker 11: I met with him. 501 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:53,476 Speaker 10: Keenan in roll perfect person to talk to. He points 502 00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:56,436 Speaker 10: out that for Jesus and the Gospels, sin is usually 503 00:30:56,436 --> 00:30:58,636 Speaker 10: not where people are weak but trying, you know, people 504 00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:03,116 Speaker 10: are really struggling, but where people are strong and not bothering. So, 505 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:06,516 Speaker 10: for example, the Good Samaritan, the priest, and the Levite 506 00:31:06,516 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 10: simply they don't bother. They just don't bother. They could 507 00:31:08,636 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 10: help the guy, but they don't bother. And so Jim 508 00:31:11,196 --> 00:31:13,796 Speaker 10: Keenan said, for Jesus, sin is a failure to bother 509 00:31:13,916 --> 00:31:19,716 Speaker 10: to love. And so after Orlando, the bishops just didn't bother. 510 00:31:20,596 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 10: They didn't bother and I thought that was sinful, and 511 00:31:22,956 --> 00:31:24,276 Speaker 10: I was really angry about it. 512 00:31:24,996 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 2: Now James Martin is angry. He thinks that some of 513 00:31:28,436 --> 00:31:33,116 Speaker 2: his religious superiors have acted sinfully. So what does he do? 514 00:31:33,916 --> 00:31:39,676 Speaker 2: He descends into the particulars. The specific case in front 515 00:31:39,716 --> 00:31:42,516 Speaker 2: of us is about the Catholic Church's moral response to 516 00:31:42,556 --> 00:31:47,036 Speaker 2: gay people. Are there gay people within the Catholic Church? Yes, 517 00:31:47,636 --> 00:31:51,756 Speaker 2: there are, Who are they exactly? Well, there are people 518 00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:55,116 Speaker 2: with a certain sexual orientation, but they're more than that. 519 00:31:56,196 --> 00:31:59,076 Speaker 10: I mean, the thing that most people misunderstand about LGBT 520 00:31:59,116 --> 00:32:02,996 Speaker 10: Catholics and LGBT Christians is that for them, it's not 521 00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 10: often about their sexual welly, it's about Jesus. It's about prayer. 522 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,596 Speaker 10: It's about God and the relationship to the church and 523 00:32:08,676 --> 00:32:11,716 Speaker 10: the sacs and helping the poor and their friends, and 524 00:32:11,756 --> 00:32:14,076 Speaker 10: so their sexual lives are just a part of it. 525 00:32:14,116 --> 00:32:15,956 Speaker 10: So would be like saying, a straight person came to me, 526 00:32:16,036 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 10: what would you say about sex? Well, that might be 527 00:32:18,396 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 10: one thing we talk about, but that's not the whole 528 00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:21,196 Speaker 10: thing we talk about. 529 00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:25,996 Speaker 2: What's the most important particular about gay people within the 530 00:32:25,996 --> 00:32:28,436 Speaker 2: Catholic Church that they're Catholics. 531 00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 10: I always like to say to people, you know, it's 532 00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:34,756 Speaker 10: not a question of making them Catholic. They're already Catholic, 533 00:32:34,796 --> 00:32:37,476 Speaker 10: they're baptized. It's their church just as much as the 534 00:32:37,476 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 10: pope or the bishop or me. 535 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:43,636 Speaker 2: Now Martin does some taxonomy. We have a group within 536 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,756 Speaker 2: our church who, in one respect behave in a way 537 00:32:46,796 --> 00:32:52,196 Speaker 2: that's contrary to church teaching. What other cases are like that? Well, 538 00:32:52,236 --> 00:32:55,556 Speaker 2: he says, there are actually lots of people, quite happily 539 00:32:55,636 --> 00:32:58,476 Speaker 2: welcomed within the Catholic Church who in some part of 540 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:00,956 Speaker 2: their life also violate church teaching. 541 00:33:01,356 --> 00:33:04,156 Speaker 10: You see with LGBT people being fired. You know, even 542 00:33:04,196 --> 00:33:07,116 Speaker 10: these days, you're not following this rule. What about the 543 00:33:07,196 --> 00:33:09,876 Speaker 10: other rules? Always say to people. Are you firing people 544 00:33:09,876 --> 00:33:13,996 Speaker 10: who practice birth control or in vitro fertilization? No, we're not. 545 00:33:14,236 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 10: Do you fire people who aren't generous to the poor? Oh, 546 00:33:16,676 --> 00:33:18,436 Speaker 10: we would never do that. Well, why not, that's a 547 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:21,596 Speaker 10: pretty important rule from Jesus. Oh, well that's different. 548 00:33:22,396 --> 00:33:26,356 Speaker 2: The casuist asks, why is that different? How is the 549 00:33:26,356 --> 00:33:29,116 Speaker 2: Biblical directive to give to the poor, a teaching that 550 00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:32,116 Speaker 2: has been at the center of Christian practice for two 551 00:33:32,156 --> 00:33:37,196 Speaker 2: thousand years, somehow less essential than being straight? If you 552 00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 2: fire people for one sort of rule violation, why aren't 553 00:33:40,756 --> 00:33:45,516 Speaker 2: you firing them for another. After his initial response to 554 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:48,276 Speaker 2: the Pulse shooting, Martin wrote an article on the church 555 00:33:48,316 --> 00:33:51,476 Speaker 2: in the gay community and then a book. And what's 556 00:33:51,516 --> 00:33:54,476 Speaker 2: strange about reading both is you keep waiting for the 557 00:33:54,516 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 2: other shoot a drop. So here's my question, though from 558 00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:02,436 Speaker 2: an outsider. So one responsive answer might be, if you're 559 00:34:02,436 --> 00:34:05,636 Speaker 2: that disappointed in your church, why don't you leave the church? 560 00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:07,636 Speaker 10: Because this is on the first of all, it's only 561 00:34:07,636 --> 00:34:08,996 Speaker 10: one part of what the church is doing. 562 00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:09,676 Speaker 6: Yeah, right. 563 00:34:09,996 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 10: Second of all, you could just say that about your country, 564 00:34:11,876 --> 00:34:16,516 Speaker 10: your family. I mean, you know, like the current presidential administration, 565 00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:18,996 Speaker 10: why aren't you leaving? People say, well, I'm an American. Well, 566 00:34:18,996 --> 00:34:22,436 Speaker 10: I'm a Catholic too, And truly, you know, given that 567 00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:24,876 Speaker 10: I'm not challenging any church teaching and really talking more 568 00:34:24,916 --> 00:34:27,356 Speaker 10: about the Gospels, there's no reason to leave. I've also, 569 00:34:27,716 --> 00:34:30,556 Speaker 10: you know, to be clear, I've also made several promises. 570 00:34:30,836 --> 00:34:33,156 Speaker 10: I took a vows at Jeshua that i'd stay. I 571 00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:35,196 Speaker 10: made a promise as a priest at my ordination that 572 00:34:35,236 --> 00:34:39,676 Speaker 10: i'd stay. So I'm not going anywhere. Yeah, that to 573 00:34:39,716 --> 00:34:40,876 Speaker 10: me is not even a question. 574 00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:45,756 Speaker 2: Now again, consider what he says here. I'm not challenging 575 00:34:45,836 --> 00:34:49,636 Speaker 2: any church teaching. He's not tackling this issue at the 576 00:34:49,716 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 2: level of theological doctrine. I have to admit that this 577 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:56,956 Speaker 2: puzzled me at first. Martin is an intellectual, a scholar, 578 00:34:57,076 --> 00:35:00,036 Speaker 2: a serious person like most of us. I assume that 579 00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 2: to be an intellectual and a serious person is to 580 00:35:03,036 --> 00:35:08,676 Speaker 2: engage first and foremost with principles. But Martin isn't interested 581 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:11,876 Speaker 2: in bouncing on some point of church doctrine. He's a 582 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:15,636 Speaker 2: Jesuit thousands of miles from the Vatican, trying to live 583 00:35:15,676 --> 00:35:21,796 Speaker 2: his faith in the real world. Saint Ignatius famously told 584 00:35:21,796 --> 00:35:25,636 Speaker 2: his followers that their first obligation on their travels was 585 00:35:25,676 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 2: to console those who were suffering or marginalized. That's why 586 00:35:29,876 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 2: you descend into the particulars, because if you do not 587 00:35:33,556 --> 00:35:37,116 Speaker 2: immerse yourself in the specifics of someone's life and circumstance, 588 00:35:37,716 --> 00:35:42,116 Speaker 2: then all you can offer is platitudes or outrage. You 589 00:35:42,196 --> 00:35:44,196 Speaker 2: cannot truly offer consolation. 590 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:46,676 Speaker 10: And so I'm trying to sort of encourage my brother 591 00:35:46,716 --> 00:35:49,476 Speaker 10: and sister Catholics to do with their LGBT brothers and sisters. 592 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:51,836 Speaker 10: You encounter the person as they are and you accompany them, 593 00:35:51,836 --> 00:35:56,676 Speaker 10: which is what Jesus does. So you know that's jesuitical. 594 00:35:56,756 --> 00:36:10,636 Speaker 2: So be it, Yeah, so be it. Revisionist History is 595 00:36:10,716 --> 00:36:15,316 Speaker 2: produced by Meil Label and Jacob Smith with Camille Baptista. 596 00:36:16,076 --> 00:36:20,436 Speaker 2: Our editor is Julia Barton. Flawan Williams is our engineer. 597 00:36:20,836 --> 00:36:24,836 Speaker 2: Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music by Luis Gierra. 598 00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:31,236 Speaker 2: Special thanks to Carl mcgliori, Heather Fein, Maggie Taylor, Maya Kanig, 599 00:36:31,676 --> 00:36:37,236 Speaker 2: and Jacob Weisberg. Revisionist History is brought to you by 600 00:36:37,676 --> 00:36:40,836 Speaker 2: Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Gladow