WEBVTT - Maggots: Good For Healing Wounds, Turns Out 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff you should know from house stuff Works 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:14.400 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.360 There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and uh no one, no 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.080 one else is in here with us yet again, because 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.320 we've graduated to the point where we don't even need 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:26.560 a producer. We need somebody who presses record and leaves. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:31.800 That's it. Because we're pros. Yep, not p R O 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.000 s E. P r O S that's right, we're not. 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:38.640 But we are prosaic, yes, but definitely not p r 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:41.879 O apostrophe es. Very few things drive me crazier than that, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.520 And I know it's stupid and pedantic, but to see, 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.440 like somebody take out a huge billboard or something and 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.080 so a word has an apostrophe. That shouldn't pros. People say, like, 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.800 leave it to the pros and they'll put an apostrophe. Yes, 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.080 and it's it's that graphic designer should be, you know, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:05.840 doctor half a day's paying maybe bucks. Something we want 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.319 to issue and you probably would get this from the 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.840 title of the episode, but we want to issue a 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.560 meal warning. Oh good thinking, because we've gotten complaints in 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:16.800 the past when people are eating and get sick listening 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.280 to some of these. Yeah, this would do it possibly 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.119 for some people. I was fine. I ate a running 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:28.200 yolk egg sandwich while I was right. It didn't bother me, 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:30.800 but I could totally see how it could be any people. 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.600 I also want to say, um, if it comes up, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.280 do not go Google image search wound sloth. Well, I 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:42.280 just put do not Google image search maggot therapy at all. Okay, sure, 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.440 but definitely stay away from wound sloth s l o 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:52.200 U g h. Yeah wow, and definitely don't look at 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:56.840 wound slough while you're eating. Yeah. Okay, so that's all 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.800 out of the way. Yes, I predict we're going to 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:00.920 be kind of excited about this one. I'm feeling a 0:02:00.960 --> 0:02:03.720 little pumped about it. Well, we did cover in uh 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.000 tin Bizarre medical Treatments uh leech therapy, which is still 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.600 being used, and I'm surprised this wasn't in that article. 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.280 To be honest, I am as well. But this gets 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.320 its own special deal, and well it should actually because 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:22.520 it's a pretty amazing thing. Um, we're talking about maggot therapy. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.359 Yes it is so, or they really or is that 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.000 a name? Well, it's a band name. To end all 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.080 band names. There probably wasn a band name that. So 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:34.919 there's it's called maggot therapy, maggot dibridement therapy, larval therapy, 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:40.800 or bio. There's another one called I think like bio 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:49.400 biodebridements or therapeutic wound miasses. Yeah, and that's basically all 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.760 the all of them, no matter what you call it, 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.280 no matter how you church it up. It is the 0:02:55.320 --> 0:03:01.320 application of live maggots fly larva to purposefully to an 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:06.160 open wound in order to help that wound heal faster. Yeah, 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.400 and better and cleaner and all that good stuff everything. 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:15.520 Daft Punk said, Oh yeah, you know, should we talk 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.000 about some of the history of this stuff. Let's just 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.280 say that one more time. Okay. Maggot de bridemant therapy 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:25.840 is taking live maggots and putting them in an open 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.240 wound on a human being or an animal. It's used 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:31.519 in veterinary medicine as well, wrapping it up tight and 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.880 letting them just eat the dead and dying flesh of 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.120 that wound while you get your foot tickled. Okay, I 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.160 would be so skiped out by this. I just wanted 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:44.600 to make sure that everybody knows exactly what we're talking about, right, 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:49.520 and goodbye to everyone everyone who fainted. Okay, yeah, let's 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.800 talk about the history, chuck, because this is um, this 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.440 is in use today, but it's actually pretty old. Yeah, 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:57.320 I mean it's it's some say it's an even an 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.440 ancient tradition like in place is like Burma in Central 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.200 America with the Mayans. Um, they were smart enough to 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:08.640 know that maggots do a pretty good job of consuming 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.920 human flesh. Uh, And it can be used for good 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.360 in that regard. Yeah, at some point, I guess healer's noticed, 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.480 like y, people who had maggots in their wounds tended 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:21.400 to have wounds heal Uh. And actually, as far as 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.679 the Western literature goes, that's exactly how UM maggot therapy 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:30.200 first finds its way, first crawls into the medical literature 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:38.239 is from a French surgeon named Ambro Ambras Pore. Yeah, 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.440 but how would you say, I don't know, I don't 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:45.680 speak French Ambras even though it doesn't have the little 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.960 what is that an accent? Yeah, it's just the e. 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:54.400 But he was a sixteenth century surgeon and he noticed that, um, 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:58.200 that people didn't necessarily fall over dead if there was 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.280 a maggot in the wound. Yeah. He was a first 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:03.240 doctor to actually come out and say, you know, I 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.279 had this patient got a big skull wound, and unbeknownst 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.480 to me, there were maggots in there. I saw them 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.800 crawling out one day and even though they had a 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.000 lot of bone. Um, the guy was great. He healed 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.040 like he lost a hand sized slab of skull and 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.120 he lived. And I think it might have something to 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.080 do with the maggots. Yeah, and he presumably wore a 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.680 helmet for the rest of his life. Probably he had 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:31.720 a probably big soft skull there. Uh. That was followed 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:37.720 in uh with the mid seventeen hundreds by another Frenchy baron, 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:42.600 Dominique Jean Laoie Uh, and he said, you know what, 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:47.159 on this Egyptian expedition, Uh, these blue fly maggots are 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:51.240 actually doing the right thing and helping us out. So 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:54.440 it's almost like these doctors just noticed this exactly and 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.360 it meant enough to him that they were like, I 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:59.800 should probably write this down. This is gonna be my 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.880 contribution to medical history of the history of science right there. Um. 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.080 So it wasn't until the uh, I guess the Civil 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.800 War that a doctor actually said I'm going to purposefully 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.279 put maggots in a wound and see what happens. And 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.280 that doctor was John Forney Zacharias. He probably didn't tell 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.680 his patient that. I think probably that he was just like, 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:25.440 just bite down on this brooms and look the other way. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:26.800 Do you want to lose your foot or do you 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:30.200 want to try something really weird? Well, supposedly in studies 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:34.760 of people, modern patients who are offered this therapy say 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.880 yes to it. Well, yeah, because I think that's what 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.080 it comes down to you. It's a last resort. Basically, 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:43.360 it's not the first thing they offer, not necessarily. Um So, anyway, 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.440 doctor Zacharias um Hey had a great quote. He said, 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:50.320 during my service in the hospital at Danville, Virginia, I 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:54.120 first used maggots to remove the decayed tissue in Hospital 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.240 Gang Green, and with my eminent satisfaction, in a single day, 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.640 they would clean a wound much better than any agents 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:03.120 we had at our command. I used them afterwards at 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.840 various places. I am sure I saved many lives by 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:11.200 their use escape septicemia and had rapid recoveries period. End quote. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.480 Pretty great. Yeah, So he was a huge believer and 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.280 not just a passive observer like people who came before him. 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:20.440 He said, yeah, I put maggots on wounds and it helps, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.680 that's right. And uh, people experimented with it for a 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.480 little while until um, a guy named Louis Pasteur and 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:32.480 Robert Coke came along, Uh, microbiologists and germ theorists that 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:37.000 basically said, you know this, this is disgusting. We might 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.440 want to not do this. Yeah, because they're dirty. Yeah, yeah, 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.280 And it's true maggots naturally in the wild carry lots 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:47.480 of pathogens with them that um can infect us in 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.040 other ways, can make a wound worse, can actually kill you. 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.920 So this the idea behind germ theory as far as 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:57.920 maggots goes right. But um, it seems like there's this 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:03.600 long history of necessity and discussed with maggot therapy that 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.920 kind of wayne ebbs and flows right, and necessity rears 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:09.720 its head on the battlefield. It did in the Civil War, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.920 and it also did in World War One. There was 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.840 a surgeon um named William S. Baer, and he was 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.280 working on the front lines in France, and he used 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:24.800 maggots on stomach wounds and open fractures and he found, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.600 to his great satisfaction, just like Dr Zacharias and the 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:30.800 other before him, that this stuff actually worked. Yeah, and 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:34.760 he actually said, you know what, I have some further advancements. UM, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.160 maybe we should put a bandage over this thing so 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.240 it doesn't completely discussed the patient. Uh, and let me 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:46.120 UM put bandages around the wound so they don't start 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.280 creeping onto the healthy flesh and doing damage or just 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.240 itching you or creeping you out further right exactly, UM, 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.040 which are still in use today. These techniques. He also 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.240 pioneered another huge technique, and this is after the war 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.040 was over. Ten years later, when he was back at 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.360 Johns Hopkins UM. He he pioneered another really important technique, 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:10.800 and that was using sterilized UM maggots. Like germ free maggots, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.280 they were raised as eggs in a sterile environment, and 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.559 so when they were introduced to the wounds, they weren't 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:21.439 carrying these pathogens anymore. And he found this is the jackpot. 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:24.360 Now you can use maggots from now on. That's right. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.480 And there was a big boom uh in the thirties 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.160 up until the mid nineteen forties. Uh, three hundred more 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.880 than three hundred American hospitals. Uh, we're using maggot treatment, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.960 maggot therapy. And then in uh, antiseptics came along, or 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.200 you know, new antiseptics, and they said, you know what, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.800 maybe there was another lull in the use of maggot. 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:48.080 They right, necessity didn't didn't spur this stuff, and it 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:50.400 was they went back to just being gross again. There 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.720 was a guy UM who by the eighties wrote what 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.600 what this one article calls the majority opinion. Fortunately, maggot 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.440 therapy is now relegated to a historical backwater of interest, 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.680 more for its bizarre nature than its effect on the 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.760 course of medical science. A therapy the demise of which 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.080 no one is likely to mourn. That's just that kind 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.120 of Western medicine hubris, where like we can do anything 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:20.920 except everything, you know, that's right. And in the nineteen nineties, 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:26.479 UM a dude named Ronald Sherman and Edward Pector basically 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:31.520 champion the technique again and kind of brought it into 0:10:31.520 --> 0:10:34.439 the modern age. Yeah, and still very much is UM. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.960 Ronald Sherman is one of the first, i think, to 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:43.560 receive a license to produce sterile maggots for use as 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.679 medical devices. Um. And there's another guy over in uh 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:53.080 the UK named John Church um who uh who brought 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:58.200 the maggot their maggot therapy into the four So it 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.959 was an ancient thing, it was. It's found to be disgusting, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.520 it's found to be useful, it's found to be disgusting. 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:08.360 It's it's found ways you can make it better. It's 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.120 found to be disgusting. And then now that this idea 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:16.200 of complimentary medicine is is kind of regaining some traction again. Um, 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.839 I think it's here to stay, though I think so too, 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.800 unless someone comes along in ten years is you know 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.000 what it's disgusting, well, you know the chuck. I mean 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:26.360 probably what we're seeing is the next thing that will 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.839 happen is there will be some huge leap, some huge 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.560 development in science, and science will get its tackles up 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.480 again and great about itself and we don't need any 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:38.040 of that stupid nastiness. And then we'll find that Nope, 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.120 you still can't beat good old fashioned maggots. And that's 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:43.120 that should be the title of this thing. You can't 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:46.240 beat good old fashioned maggots for healing a wound that 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.120 won't heal otherwise it's a great title. So you want 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.840 to take a break. Uh, yeah, let's do it, and 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.800 we'll go um treat our own wounds and we'll be 0:11:54.840 --> 0:12:29.000 back shortly. All right, Let's talk about diabetes for a second. Yeah, 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:33.920 more than twenty three million Americans are affected with diabetes. 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.880 And one thing that can happen, uh is nerve damage, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.800 especially in the extremities the hands and feet and the 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.280 toes and the and the fingers. Your blood vessels become 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.079 hard and they don't circulate the blood like you need. 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:52.000 That can lead to open sores called ulcers, which can 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.720 become infections, which can spread to nearby bone, which can 0:12:55.800 --> 0:13:00.000 lead to amputation. Yeah. It all this is just from 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.440 a long exposure to high levels of blood sugar and 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.360 they're not sure how it can do it. But yeah, 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.760 the blood, the blood vessels not helping pump blood very well, 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.760 get nutrients, or your tissue can die. But also that neuropathy, 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.800 that dead and nerve cell um that actually makes it 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.760 hard for you to notice. If you have like a 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.959 really bad ulcer on the bottom of your foot, you 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.880 can't feel it and so you don't get treatment early enough, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:25.880 so it can get an infection can get out of 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:30.160 hand and when it spreads to bone that's called osteomyelitis. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.640 That's problematic because that very quickly will lead to an amputation. 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.120 And there's some pretty shocking stats here from this article 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:42.160 that Tom wrote. Um about this sheave jam Yeah nice, 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:47.520 it's yeah for sure, Um. But about amputations from diabetes. Yes, 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:51.000 seventy thousand to foot and leg amputations each year in 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.960 the United States alone, and uh they say around the world, 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.920 they estimate every thirty seconds someone gets a limb cut 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.680 off because of diabetes. Yeah, that's sad, Yeah, it really is, 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:04.880 and we should We will do one on diabetes for sure. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.360 Oh yeah, I'm surprised we haven't already. Um. But the 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:16.360 so amputation is used to halt the progress of an infection, 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.080 and that's usually the last resort. But what's what Tom 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.560 points out is that there are plenty of doctors around 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.960 the world I imagine that aren't aware that you can 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:30.680 use maggots or have never done it before. And if 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:34.120 you are facing an amputation from say like a wound, 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.600 a persistent wound, a chronic wound that won't heal, um, 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.200 you may want to suggest maggots to your doctor. You 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.160 may have to actually take this the the initiative on 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:47.160 this one, and say, let's make sure the amputation is 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.280 the absolute last resort. Let's see if we can put 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:51.760 one more resort in there before then. I'm willing to 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.800 let maggots crawl inside my body in this wound is 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:59.720 open wound if you're willing to apply them. And they like. 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.080 Doctors love hearing when patients suggest treatments. Oh, they do. 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.320 They love feedback. They love to be guided in their 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.560 diagnoses and prognoses. Yeah, I love it. That's a tough jam. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.760 I get it. Doctors are frustrated a lot of these 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.600 days with self diagnosis and online doctoring. Sure, but you 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:19.520 should also be your own advocate. We can't be in 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.360 that before. Yeah, it's your leg. Yeah, if you want 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.400 to keep your leg, you tell that doctor to go 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:26.240 get some maggots. You're going to replace them with the 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.880 doctor who will. How can I can find a guy? Yeah, 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.200 I can get a guy by noon that'll put maggots 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.720 on that wound. And actually there's a there's a group. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.680 I think Ronald Sherman, the guy we mentioned earlier, who's 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:41.440 like the the US champion of maggot therapy. Um, it's 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.280 there's this group called the b Turf Foundation b t 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:47.960 e Er Foundation, UM, and they have all sorts of 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:52.200 resources for people in that very situation, like how to 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.360 talk to your doctor, UM that if your insurance won't 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.440 cover it, let them know, because they say insurance actually 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.880 most insurance covers maggot therapy, but most insurance claims people 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:06.720 are not aware of that, so you may get denied 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:09.240 at first. And here's how to talk to your insurance 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:12.120 company that it really is. That beats going to your 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.600 doctor and saying, well, you know what Josh and Chuck said. 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:19.520 He you're not gonna like hearing this, right because you think, doctor, 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.040 please take a sleep and be put maggots on my feet, right. 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.000 And and that's the other thing too. I mean, like 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.120 we wouldn't be suggesting this and the betur Foundation probably 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.200 wouldn't be such advocates for it if it didn't work 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:38.080 so amazingly well. It study after study, and we'll talk 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.760 about the details of it, but there's so many studies 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.160 out there. UM. Again. Sherman, who agreed, is an advocate, 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:47.840 but in a pure reviewed journal published a survey of 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.000 studies that he could find on maggot therapy and it's 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.880 very clear that it works really, really well, and not 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:58.960 only necessarily um as a means of last resort, but 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.040 even just compare to the standard of care using like 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:05.280 hydrogell or other things that you might use to treat 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.760 a chronic wound. Maggots destroy it. They leave it in 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.359 the dust. Yeah. And if it doesn't work, it's not 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.760 gonna hurt anything, I can tell. Yeah, it just puts 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.800 off how much longer before they amputate your foot? Pretty much? 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.120 Uh So what will happen is they will Well, let's 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.480 get into this a little bit. Um. There are four 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.320 different and you where did you find this? Was this 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.440 a a research paper? Yeah? This is by Ronald Sherman 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.720 Mechanisms of Maggot Induced Wound Healing colin What do we 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:36.800 know and where do we go from here? It was 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.040 in the journal Evidence Based, Complimentary and Alternative Medicine in 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:44.160 two thousand fourteen, that's right. And he describes for different 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:51.200 phases of basically healing a wound um homeostasis, inflammation, ploriferate. Man, 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:55.600 I'm so bad at that one. Oh yeah, keep it coming, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:18:01.560 proliferation and uh, remodeling and maturing, and what happens is 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.320 the cells get to work, they recruit other cells, they 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.880 alter their activities and basically say, let's get to work 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:12.440 cleaning and uh, well on all four of these stages 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.400 to help heal the wound. Yeah, and at any any 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:20.720 one of those stages, um, the the next process can 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:25.479 stall out. Um. Normally it stalls out at inflammation because 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.760 the infection gets out of hand in the body can't 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.719 fight off the infection faster than it's laying the extra 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.040 cellular matrix for the new cells to be rebuilt, the 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.639 new tissue to recro um. And that's that's it's a 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.440 common thing that leads to chronic wounds that just won't heal. 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.640 And that's where maggots are really really useful to basically 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.119 interrupt that stall and get the car moving again in 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.200 the right direction. It's exactly right, they kick started. Uh 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.600 So de Bradmant is removing dead tissue. And that is 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:01.680 really where maggots excel um. They said, Uh, in here, 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.760 each maggot can chew, well, they don't exactly chew, which 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.000 we'll get to. Uh. They remove twenty five milligrams of 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.240 necrotic material dead flesh, uh in just twenty four hours. 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:16.040 That's pretty good. Yeah, and uh, there's there's actually three 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.400 ways that maggots clean a wound. But the bridemant, which 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.480 is getting in there and like just cleaning out, removing 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:27.120 physically removing um that dead material. That's like the key 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:29.760 that seems to be the key. And then there's also 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.400 um anti microbial activity like actually killing the bacteria that's 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.840 killing the flesh, leaving it cleaner than when they came in, yeah, 0:19:37.880 --> 0:19:43.640 which is amazing. And then even more astounding, stimulating new growth, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.359 like the act the presence of maggots in your wound 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:52.600 stimulates new tissue growth around your skin. It's the most 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:57.800 they're just like wonder creatures who knew. One of the 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.760 ways that they remove this dead tissue is just by 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:05.160 the nature of what their body is like. And they 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:09.119 have these little prickly spines all over their body that 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:13.119 act as a surgeon's rasp rasper or file what It 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.879 basically just the fact that they're moving around on the 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.760 wound is going to like file the stuff down and 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.760 scrape the wound, which helps loosens it up. It's like 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.760 a plow. It burrows through this dying and dead tissue 0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.880 and it just yeah, it loosens up. That's part one 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.000 of deprived Part one. There's another part of it, which 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.240 is the digestive enzymes that they excrete and secrete. It's 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.600 called alimentary secretions and excretions a s. It's basically they're 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:44.000 digestive juices, right, and they puke these up as they're 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.920 moving around, and they just they just puke them everywhere 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.520 and it dissolves this flesh. Yeah, I remember in the 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.239 Body Farms episode we we talked about this one one 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.479 of the old classics. And that's why I said earlier. 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.439 They don't bite or choose something, they just lickquify it. 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.800 And then and this this A s. C. Stuff is 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.600 so greedy that it liquefies more dead flesh than the 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.400 maggots can even consume, and they consume quite a bit, 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.560 like you said, twenty five milligrams. That's a lot for 0:21:14.600 --> 0:21:17.440 a little tiny maggot in one day. But even more 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:20.040 than that, they're liquefying even more of this dead tissue. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.440 So that part of the process of maggot debridemant therapy 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:30.560 is draining out this liquefied necrotic tissue that's become liquefied 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.399 from the alimentary or the the A S C stuff, 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.919 the digest events ons, right, So you've got them burrowing around, 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:43.040 you've got them puking into your wound, liquefying the dead tissue, 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:48.560 leaving pretty much entirely the living tissue alone, and then 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:52.040 you just kind of drain out the stuff that's that's 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:55.840 in there. And the reason um that maggots are considered 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.240 by the FDA a medical device rather than a drug 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.840 is because the whole process of debridement isn't just a 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.840 reaction to the chemicals. It is part of that mechanical 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.200 movement of the maggots through the wound. So it's a drug, 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:14.480 it's a device. I mean it's a device. Look at them, yea. 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:19.560 And those that the secretions are so potent. They have 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:25.879 basically DNA destroying qualities, Like they not only just break 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.320 down tissue, they destroy the DNA. It's pretty amazing stuff 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.840 it is. Should we take another break? Yeah, I'm a 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.600 little excited. We probably should. I'm gonna go to the vomitorium. 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:41.600 Are you grossed out slightly? I am not in the least. 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:45.480 What does that say about me? I don't know. You 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.560 have a stronger stomach, but I don't necessarily. I'm I'm 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:50.639 just excited. All right, we'll go watch me vomited. At 0:22:50.720 --> 0:23:13.359 least that will gross me out, all right, Well that 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:17.639 was disgusting, it was. It made me throw up in turn. Uh. 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:23.160 So here's a couple of questions. Um, does it hurt 0:23:24.040 --> 0:23:26.800 Maybe a little bit at first. Yeah, I don't get 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.720 the feeling that it's extremely painful. It probably depends on 0:23:29.760 --> 0:23:33.200 the wound. Um, But it can the first few treatments 0:23:33.240 --> 0:23:35.520 can apparently be a little bit painful. Right, And there's 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.640 there's actually two mechanisms for the pain. One is that 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.840 of an open wound, right, and you have maggots crawling 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:44.920 over the exposed nerves in your open wound. That's not 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.760 gonna feel good, No, it won't. Uh. And then number two, 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:50.720 pressure in the wound can increase as the maggots get 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:55.080 bigger from eating so much dead flesh. So, yes, the 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:58.080 the the cura to that is pain killers, which, frankly, 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.480 if you have an open wound with exposed is nerves, 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.200 you should probably be on those anyway. Sure you will be, 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.320 so it probably won't hurt because there'll be some sort 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:10.200 of pain management going on, but you will still feel 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.280 most likely unless the doctor completely numbs the area. Maggots 0:24:14.480 --> 0:24:17.320 crawling around inside you see, That's what That's the part 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:21.600 that gets me is actually thinking about undergoing this therapy 0:24:21.640 --> 0:24:24.720 myself is what gets me, not like seeing it or 0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:27.440 reading about it, but thinking about having an open wound 0:24:27.440 --> 0:24:29.840 on the bottom of my foot and having maggots creeping 0:24:29.840 --> 0:24:31.800 around in there. See. The thing is is I think 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:35.320 anybody would feel that way. There's very few, included myself. 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:37.360 I'm not grossed up by this, but I wouldn't want 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:40.639 maggots talking wound. But I think if your backs against 0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:44.680 the wall, uh that, or you lose your foot, I try. 0:24:44.800 --> 0:24:48.800 I would definitely try. I think people would apparently man 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.239 and I would demand some high quality drugs. And they 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:57.600