1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Join us. Right now is Bernard Luna, his VPS CEO. Bernard, 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: let's walk through what the future there looks like. The 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: business is doing well and at the same time we're 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: leaning into the transition and investing in the VP of tomorrow. 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Performing while transforming, that's what we call it here. This 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: is fundamental change, where ahead of the game. I think 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: this direction is unstoppable. I think it's an enormous opportunity. 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: We are a good company with good people. I can 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: assure you it is not greenwashing. Performing while transforming. I 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: know I sound like a broken record that we're preparing 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: VP for tomorrow. I think a few people will question 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: are resolved to do that? Welcome to calling Bullshit the 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: podcast about purpose washing, the gap between what companies say 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: they stand for and what they actually do, and what 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: they would need to change to practice us what they preach. 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: I'm your host time Ontogue, and I've spent over a 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: decade helping companies define what they stand for, their purpose 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: and then help them to use that purpose to drive 19 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot of organizations today, 20 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: there's still a pretty wide gap between word. Indeed, that 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: gap has a name. We call it bullshit, But, and 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: this is important, we believe that bullshit is a treatable disease. 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: So when the BS detector lights up, we're going to 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: explore things that a company should do to fix it. 25 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're gonna look at oil company BP. Recently, 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: BP CEO Bernard Looney announced a new purpose to reimagine 27 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: energy for people and our planet. We want to help 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: the world reach net zero and improve people's lives. That's 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: a pretty big shift for one of the largest current 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: and historical producers of c O two in the world. 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: But the interesting thing about this story is it's not 32 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: the first time that BP has made a bold claim 33 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: about reimagining energy. Is it possible to drive a car 34 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: and still have a clean environment. We think so. And 35 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: now BP, Amaco Aco and Castrol have come together to 36 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: try Beyond Petroleum BP. That's a commercial from way back 37 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one that was part of then 38 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 1: CEO John Brown's bold rebranding of the company, claiming that 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: the initials BP would henceforth stand not for British Petroleum 40 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: but for Beyond Petroleum. To understand just how significant the 41 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: idea of beyond petroleum was, we need to take a 42 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: quick trip back in time. B P was born in 43 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: nineteen o eight as the Anglo Persian Oil Company. The 44 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: company first staked claims on oil wells in what is 45 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: now Iran. In the decades to follow, b P expanded 46 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: their oil operations throughout the Middle East, Africa, Latin America, 47 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: Europe and Russia. Along the way, they developed their own 48 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: distinct cowboy culture. B P played hard, and they played 49 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: for keeps. For instance, a struggle for control of the 50 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: company with the government of Iran resulted in the overthrow 51 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: of democratically elected President Mosadek in nineteen fifty three. They 52 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: also became known as the company that took the biggest 53 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: extraction risks and then reaped the biggest financial rewards. As 54 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: a result, they left a trail of environmental and safety 55 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: catastrophes in their wake. At nine p three a m. 56 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: On Saturday, March the eighteenth, the Torry Canyon, one of 57 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: the biggest tank as yet built, was turning the sea 58 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: purple with a fatal cargo. A massive explosion and fire 59 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,839 Speaker 1: erupted at the VP refinery in Texas City, Texas. The 60 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: explosion killed fifteen workers and injured one hundred eighty others, 61 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: many of them seriously. When CEO John Brown took over 62 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: the company in nineteen ninety five, he inherited the biggest 63 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: polluter with the worst safety record of the seven largest 64 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: oil companies in the world, known as the Super Majors. 65 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: But John Brown was a little different from his predecessors 66 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: and peers. A visionary in his own way. He saw 67 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: the perils of climate change, and he understood the oil 68 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: industry's culpability. I believe we've come to an important moment 69 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: in our consideration of the environment. We need to go 70 00:04:56,040 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 1: beyond analysis and to seek solutions and to take action. 71 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: It is a moment for change and for rethinking corporate responsibility. 72 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: BPS new CEO had become a vocal advocate for clean energy. 73 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: He committed to reducing the company's greenhouse gas emissions and 74 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: invested in solar power and other alternative energy. Under Brown's watch, 75 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: BP also broke ranks and exited the Global Climate Coalition, 76 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: an oil industry lobbying group of businesses that opposed action 77 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: to reducing greenhouse gas emissions in oil industry terms. BP 78 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: had gone renegade. They had a new progressive story, and 79 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: they had started to make that story real through bold action, 80 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: but bold change in the oil industry makes enemies, in 81 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: some cases, really powerful enemies. In two thousand and six, 82 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: these enemies began a whisper campaign about John Brown's private life. 83 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: Well uh. In two thousand and seven, I was outed 84 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: by the Mail on Sunday as gay, and that was 85 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: a big shock, I think in the way it was done, 86 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: not least to me. The press was relentless and fearing 87 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: being outed, Brown lied under oath about his sexuality and 88 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: was charged with perjury. On May one, two thousand and seven, 89 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: John Brown resigned as CEO. It's sad looking back on 90 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: this from had John taken over only a decade later, 91 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: being gay wouldn't have even been an issue. After Brown's departure, 92 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: the head of oil exploration and Production, Tony Hayward, became 93 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: the new CEO. The company divested itself of its alternative 94 00:06:55,000 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: energy holdings and diverted that money to radically experimental deep 95 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: water drilling methods, and then on April two thousand and ten, 96 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: disaster struck. You have information now that this this rig 97 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: has gone under, It has gone onto the surface. Overnight, 98 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: a powerful explosion rocked a giant oil rig igniting a 99 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: fire and launching a day long search for eleven work 100 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: early is a mess today because the winds shifted direction, 101 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: blowing this oil, this sludge into the Bayous of southeastern Louisiana. 102 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: The explosion was caused by a natural gas blowout a 103 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: mile down on the seafloor. The fail safe mechanism designed 104 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: to stop the flow malfunctioned, and the equipment needed to 105 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: solve the problem was on the other side of the world. 106 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: Eleven people died and millions of gallons of oil were 107 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: now gushing into the Gulf of Mexico. It was the 108 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: worst oil spill in history, and BP was wildly unprepared 109 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: to respond and to make matters worse, if you can 110 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 1: imagine that was even possible. BP was actively trying to 111 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: play things down and play the victim. Chairman Tony Hayward, 112 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: speaking to Britain Sky News, I think the environmental impact 113 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: of this disaster is likely to be very modest, and 114 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: a week ago this there's no one who wants this 115 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: thing over more than I have. You know a lot 116 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: my life. Back Crisis managers cringed when they heard that comment. 117 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: Any oil company would have suffered in this situation. But 118 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: there was a special outrage reserve for BP because they 119 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: claimed to be a green energy company and then wound 120 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: up as the culprit in the worst environmental disaster in history. 121 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: Trust in BP was shattered. In retrospect, I'm guessing the 122 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: new CEO, Bernard Looney wishes that John Brown's Beyond Petroleum 123 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: plan had been implemented, BP would have had a twenty 124 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: year head start on their competitors, all of whom have 125 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: recently announced ambitious plans to make their own transitions to 126 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: low carbon sustainable energy. Instead, like the rest of big oil, 127 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: Looney has to make this transition fast, so folks. That 128 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 1: brings us to the main question. VP is once again 129 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: saying that their purpose is to reimagine energy for people 130 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: and our planet. Is this finally true or is it 131 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: still a bunch of bullshit? Get out your BS detector 132 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: and join me as we drove for answers right after 133 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: this before you head to the break, we'd love to 134 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: hear what you think about the show. Maybe you were 135 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: inspired to take action, maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating. 136 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us 137 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: a message at two one two five oh five five 138 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: or send a voice memo to CBS podcast at co 139 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: collective dot com. You might even be featured on an 140 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: upcoming episode Welcome back. To help me get to the 141 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: bottom of BP's renude commitment to cleaner energy for people 142 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: in the planet, I first spoke with Tyson Slocum, an 143 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: expert in the world of petroleum, natural gas, and power markets. Tyson, 144 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: welcome to Calling Bullshit. We're very excited to have you 145 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: on the show. It's my pleasure to be here. I'd 146 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: love it if you could start out by telling us 147 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about your background and the work that 148 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: you do. Yes, I'm the Energy program director at Public Citizen. 149 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: Public Citizen is a national consumer advocacy group based in Washington, 150 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: d C. I run all of our energy policy related 151 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: work and that mainly focuses on the oversight and regulation 152 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,959 Speaker 1: of petroleum, natural gas, and electric power markets. Our goal 153 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: at Public Citizen is to promote those policies that provide affordable, reliable, 154 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: and sustainable energy for working families. Fantastic. I love that. 155 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: So let's get into BP. The topic of today is 156 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: their energy transition goals and so just a kind of 157 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: level set how much c O two is BP putting 158 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: into the atmosphere in say an average year, a heck 159 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: of a lot. It's difficult to quantify, but they're one 160 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: of the largest individual emitters just because the scope of 161 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: their operations. They literally have a presence on every single continent. 162 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: They have a massive carbon footprint. And then what's what's 163 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: important here ties also they are a large historical emitter 164 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: because the company has been around for such a long 165 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: time that when you look at its entire leg you 166 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 1: see footprint it's even larger, and it's going to be 167 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: one of the largest single contributors to climate change. From 168 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: a corporate standpoint, and because of climate change, most of 169 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: these companies have now announced their plans for so called 170 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: energy transition. Your opinion, how serious do you think these 171 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: companies are about making that transition. I think they're very 172 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: serious about it from a public relations standpoint, But when 173 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: you look at the day to day operation and even 174 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: look at their capital expenditure plan going forward the next 175 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: five years, it is dominated by oil and gas. And 176 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: it's important to note here that in BP's own financial results, 177 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: they classify their natural gas production activity in with renewables, 178 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: so they consider natural gas to be a clean source 179 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: of energy when you know it is absolutely not. I 180 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: did not realize that that's crazy. Yeah, so so that's 181 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: the problem. You know, BP isn't alone here, but BP 182 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: is desperately trying to reclassify itself as a clean energy company. 183 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: And again tied, this isn't new. I mean it started 184 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: twenty years ago when they came up with this advertising 185 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: plan to be on petroleum exactly. Yeah. So BP has 186 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: been in this process of reinventing itself from a public 187 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: relations standpoint for a very long time. But in terms 188 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: of its operational standpoint, BP is an oil and gas company. Period. Yeah. So, 189 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: within two weeks of taking the reins as CEO at 190 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: BP in February of Bernard Luny outlined a whole new 191 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: purpose for BP. He says, it is to reimagine energy 192 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: for people and our planet. We want to help the 193 00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: world reach net zero and improve people's lives. And then 194 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: down in the details he lays out specific goals for 195 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: getting BP to net zero. He calls them aims, which 196 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: I find kind of a weasily word. How about commitments, Bernard? 197 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 1: But okay, so he says, our first goal is net 198 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 1: zero operations are aim one is to be net zero 199 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: across our entire operations on an absolute basis by or sooner. 200 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: This aim relates to Scope one and t G h 201 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: G emissions. So first of all, what does that mean? 202 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: So that just means the emissions footprint of BP and 203 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: its operations, not of how it's fuels are going to 204 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: be consumed and therefore add to climate change. And so 205 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, just from the very get go, their definitions 206 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: of reaching net zero have a massive flaw. Exactly. Okay, 207 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: So so just to to school me up, let's move 208 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: to their aim to our aim too, is to be 209 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: net zero on an absolute basis across the carbon in 210 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: our oil and gas production by sooner. This is our 211 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: Scope three aim and is on a BP equity share 212 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: basis excluding holdings in Rosineft, the Russian company run by 213 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: Putin's number two guy, that they just announced they were 214 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: going to divest of. But staying with what's on their website, 215 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: that Net two goal to be net zero on an 216 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 1: absolute basis across the carbon and our upstream oil and 217 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: gas production by sooner. What does that mean? So they're 218 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: they're talking about Scope three emissions for their oil and 219 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: gas operations, which appears to be more comprehensive. But still 220 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: this is a goal by and that isn't really that ambitious. 221 00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: We're looking at another generation or more of signifigant oil 222 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: and gas extraction opportunities for BP, and so in terms 223 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: of meaningful action to address the climate crisis, I don't 224 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: see the ambition in this, you know, net zero goal 225 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: by as being relevant. So you don't think it's enough 226 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: and and and the timeline is too long? Is that 227 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: sort of your take? Absolutely? And this is this is 228 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: the challenge, right. It seems sort of silly for an 229 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: oil and gas company, especially one as large as VP, 230 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: to be talking about getting to real, meaningful net zero, 231 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about five years or forty years, because 232 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: you're going to have to transform the fundamentals of the company. 233 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: And I don't see where that is happening yet at BP. 234 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about sort of nebulous goals far 235 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: off in the future. I don't see how those long 236 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: term goals are affecting to days operational priorities at BP. 237 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: I still see capital being first and foremost allocated to 238 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: continued oil and gas development and and that's the big challenge. 239 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: And for any large oil major tie there's going to 240 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: be a market challenge to doing a real transition to renewables, 241 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 1: for example, because during that transition, let's say BP has 242 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: a real meaningful plan which I don't see but just 243 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: for conversation purposes to transition off of oil and towards renewables. 244 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 1: The market is just gonna want to see BP split 245 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: into separate companies because the market value of a pure 246 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: renewable play is going to be dragged down by the 247 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: continued operations of oil and gas, which the market is 248 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: not going to see as having enough growth. And so 249 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: as long as BP remains an integrated company that is 250 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: trying to get into renewables while still primarily being an 251 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: oil and gas company, those oil and gas operations are 252 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: always going to drag on the value of the renewable investments. 253 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: And so what you would see from Wall Street is 254 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: they would say split up the company. Interestingly, a former CEO, 255 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: John Brown, is recently on record saying he thinks that's 256 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: a good idea to spin out the renewable energy assets 257 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: as a separate company, essentially create BP Future, which is 258 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: rapidly growing, less capital intensive, and valued at a premium 259 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: by investors, and then by default create BP past, which 260 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 1: is the oil and gas assets, capital intensive, unloved by 261 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: the market, and in decline, and then just let the 262 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: market decide. What do you think about that? I think 263 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: that's how all of these oil and gas companies are 264 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: going to have to go. If if you're going to 265 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: remain a publicly traded company, off ring shares of the public, 266 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: that's the only strategy that makes any sense. And the 267 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: fact that BP hasn't done that split yet shows that 268 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: their financial and capital commitments to renewables aren't yet meaningful 269 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: enough to orchestrate that split. Yeah, Leoney doesn't like the 270 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: idea of splitting up. He actually responded to Brown and 271 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: he said he wants to use the cash of the 272 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 1: high carbon business to fund the transition. He calls it, 273 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 1: what is it? He's got a catchphrase for it, performing 274 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: while transforming. That would be believable if that's what was 275 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: actually happening. But when we look at the balance sheet, 276 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: BP is still pouring billions of dollars every year from 277 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: its earnings on oil and gas operations into more capital 278 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: investment for additional oil and gas exploration and production, and 279 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: into dividends. Because the way that these oil companies try 280 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: and keep their stock price attractive because they're being eclipsed, 281 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: all of them by companies like Tesla and renewable energy 282 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: companies that just have way more growth potential. The way 283 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: that BP markets itself to fund advisors and to other 284 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,960 Speaker 1: big institutional investors is the lucrative dividend that they pay 285 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: out in cash every quarter, and so a bunch of 286 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 1: the profits from their oil and gas operations are just 287 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: going into pumping up their stock price to make it 288 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: continually attractive. And so until we see a deviation from 289 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: big capital investment in oil and gas and the big 290 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: investment in dividends, this is inaccurate. They are not moving 291 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: that profit from today's oil and gas operations into tomorrow's renewables. 292 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: Sticking with the the aims that they have on their website, 293 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: I just want to go through a couple more that, 294 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: frankly I just don't understand. Aim three is to cut 295 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: the carbon intensity of the products that we sell by 296 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: by twenty fifty or sooner. What does carbon intensity? What 297 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: does that mean? So this is talking about the relative 298 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: carbon emissions for energy resources. So a lot of this 299 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: is BP and some of the other majors like Chevron, 300 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: and Shell have been increasing their investments into natural gas, 301 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: and so the way that they measure it is gas 302 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: has a lower carbon intensity than oil. It is not 303 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: a clean resource, right, it is a fossil fuel, but 304 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 1: compared to oil, and so a lot of this carbon 305 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 1: intensity talk is really about a shift into natural gas. 306 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of that is because they 307 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: see continued market opportunities for gas in the power generation sector, 308 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: in the industrial sector, and in the agricultural sector with 309 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: for utilizers and so forth. So again, this is the challenge. 310 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: They're using these words that sound like they're doing a 311 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: serious pivot into renewables, but it's not. It's just putting 312 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: slightly more investment into gas over oil, and they're able 313 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: to count that as a lower carbon intensity going forward. 314 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: It's not, you know, going to deliver us on a 315 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: path to meaningfully addressing the climate crisis, right, Okay, So 316 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: Aim four is to produce methane. It says our aim 317 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: force to install methane measurement at all of our existing 318 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: major oil and gas processing sites, by published the data, 319 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: and then drive a fifty reduction in methane intensity of 320 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: our operations. So, first of all, why is this important? 321 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: What's special about methane. So, methane is a extremely powerful 322 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: greenhouse gas. It is many many, many times more powerful 323 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,160 Speaker 1: than carbon dioxide. It doesn't last in the atmosphere as 324 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: long as c O two, but methane, for the briefer 325 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: time that it is in the atmosphere after being released, 326 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: is far more potent. And so the Obama administration in 327 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve introduced sweeping requirements and mandates to control 328 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: methane emissions from oil and gas operations, and BP and 329 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: all the other oil companies successfully fought it off. Now 330 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,919 Speaker 1: we've had a change in heart, and really what what 331 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: changed was in November, a energy company that is partly 332 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: owned by the French government called Energy canceled a major 333 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: liquefied natural gas export deal with a US based l 334 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: en G exporter because of the lack of any meaningful 335 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: methane regulations on US gas production or US gas exports. 336 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: And that cancelation of that seven billion dollar deal was 337 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: a wake up call for oil and gas producers everywhere 338 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: that all of a sudden there was a emphasis on 339 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 1: controlling and measuring the carbon content of natural gas production. 340 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: And so we have now seen a total one eight 341 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: where BP actually was sending out tweets in support of 342 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: Biden administration efforts to revive federal regulation over methane emissions. 343 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: And so this is BP trying to get out ahead 344 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 1: of a market trend. Oil companies are uniformly against regulation 345 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: unless that regulation can provide market access opportunities, and in 346 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: this case, regulating methane emissions and documenting your ability to 347 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: limit fugitive emissions is seen as a market opportunity because 348 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: you're able to slap a label of clean methane on 349 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: your natural gas and make it more desirable for export 350 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: and consumption in global markets. So it would have been 351 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: great if BP was making this announcement a decade ago. 352 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: Another point that they make on the website to help 353 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: the world get to net zero is aligning associations. Our 354 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: aim is to set new expectations for our relationships with 355 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: trade organizations around the globe. In September of September, in 356 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: a publication called The Resilience, they point out that VP 357 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: still supports eight anti climate lobbying groups as of that date. 358 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: And you know that's eighteen months after Bernard Looney took 359 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: his job, and they had plenty of time to clean 360 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: that up by September. Are you aware of any issues 361 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: there and what does that make you think about BP? Absolutely, 362 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: this is a huge problem. And just for a second, 363 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: let me just talk about trade associations in general, because 364 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: it's sort of a fascinating, crazy situation that your listeners 365 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: may not be familiar with. So what a trade association. 366 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: Let's take the American Patrolum Institute, which is the largest 367 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: and probably the most successful trade association lobbying group in 368 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: the United States today. It's got an annual budget in 369 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: excess of three million dollars a year. And so what 370 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: API does is it collects dues from BP and Xon 371 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: and all the other companies and allows them all to 372 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: actively collaborate on influencing legislation and regulation. So, while oil 373 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: companies compete in the marketplace, when it comes to influencing 374 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: our politicians and our regulatory structures, they are actively colluding 375 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: because they have a shared common interest. And so you're 376 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: absolutely right that BPS stated commitment to only joining those 377 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: trade associal stations that align with efforts to address the 378 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: climate change do not meet reality because they continue to 379 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: pay millions and millions of dollars in dues to trade 380 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: associations that are actively fighting against climate solutions. Luney has 381 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: also made a few subsequent promises after he rolled out 382 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: this plan. One of them was in August he said 383 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: to investors that VP will reduce oil and gas production 384 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: by within a decade, and that was two years ago, 385 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 1: so he's got eight years left, and that they would 386 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: stop exploring for oil and gas fields in new countries 387 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,719 Speaker 1: in the same time frame. So I guess do you 388 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: read from that that he's saying he's prepared to leave 389 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: oil in the ground to make this transition work. I 390 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 1: I don't think that he's realistic about those commitments. I mean, 391 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,959 Speaker 1: these are non binding commitments. First of all, they're just 392 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: public announcements promises, um. So without a binding commitment, the 393 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 1: company can make whatever adjustments and changes it wants. I 394 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: don't see this as to be very honest and meaningful commitment. 395 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: BP is still committing the vast majority of its capital 396 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: investment into exploration and production, and and that tells me 397 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: that BP remains an oil and gas company period. One 398 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: of the things that we're exploring on this show is 399 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: kind of a an evolved version of capitalism, let's call it. 400 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: That includes some of the externalities that companies really like 401 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: to ignore. So right now, for instance, there are a 402 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: lot of externalities that are not priced into a gallon 403 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: of gas, the costs of climate change, for instance, right, 404 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: and in a way, it keeps the price of a 405 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: gallon of gas artificially low. For example, the New York 406 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: Core of Engineers is proposing a sea wall that will 407 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: cost hundred and nineteen billion dollars to protect the city 408 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: from rising sea levels. Is that cost figured into every 409 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: barrel of oil today? Not at all. In fact, there 410 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: is no federal regulation of carbon emissions from oil and 411 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: gas operations, so they're getting a free pass. And you 412 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: just summed it up correctly that there are large externalities 413 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: with fossil fuel production and consumption that are not reflected 414 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: in the market price, and so all of society has 415 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: to pick up that tab. Look at the infrastructure bill 416 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: that President Biden just signed into law at the end 417 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: of last year. It includes eleven billion dollars of taxpayer 418 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: money to clean up coal mines. You know, why, why 419 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: aren't coal companies doing that? There's also billions of dollars 420 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: in there of taxpayer money to plug up old and 421 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: abandoned oil and gas wells. Some of those were BP's 422 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: old oil and gas wells. So so again, the fossil 423 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: fuel companies enjoy today's profit of extracting these fuels without 424 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: any of the long term financial obligations that their business causes. 425 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: That needs to change. I've read that there are a 426 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: number of cities and towns who have actually started to 427 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: sue fossil fuel companies to try to recover some of 428 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: that money. Have any of these lawsuits succeeded so far. 429 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: They're all moving through the federal and state court systems, 430 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: and they're using very inventive tort law. You know, tort 431 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: is if you sue for damages. I slipped on the 432 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: sidewalk in front of your business because you failed to 433 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: maintain it, and your failure to maintain that cause me 434 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: bodily injury. I am do damages for my pain and suffering. 435 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: So this is sort of the same thing. The oil 436 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: and gas industry new decades ago that their business was 437 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: contributing to climate change, but didn't do anything about it. 438 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: And that's the key from a court decision that they 439 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: knew that their business was creating these harms and they 440 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: did nothing to address them. And we all are suffering 441 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: as a result, and I think that's part of the 442 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: motivation for a company like BP to try and get 443 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: out ahead and to say, listen, we're in favor now 444 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: of federal action to regulate these things so that we 445 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: can try to get out from these tort lawsuits. And 446 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: in fact, there's a plan that's being underwritten by some 447 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 1: of the major oil companies to establish a carbon tax 448 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: in the United States, and there's a lot of merit 449 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: to that, but when you look at the details of 450 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: their proposal, they want the carbon tax in exchange for 451 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: two big things, one evisceration of climate regulations over their 452 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: business and immunity from tort lawsuits. Very similar, very similar, 453 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: very similar to what the gun manufacturers got. That annoying 454 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: and shades of the tobacco industry as well. You know, 455 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: they deny, deny, deny, deny, deny, and then you know, 456 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: finally events catch up with them. You know, from our 457 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: perspective on this show, we're looking for companies that are 458 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: purpose let These are companies that by and large have 459 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: a conscience. They actually are trying to make the world 460 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: better and when they see a problem, they try and 461 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: solve it. They don't wait for the government to legislate. 462 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: And so when VP says they're trying to take on 463 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: climate change, our perspective is great, you sound like a 464 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: purpose led company, But is their intention pure? Do they 465 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,719 Speaker 1: really mean it? And so one of the things we 466 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: look for is self regulation by agreeing to a carbon tax, 467 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: if they're trying to get out of paying for any 468 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: liability for past harm, that does not clear our bar, 469 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: at least at this show, like we would call bullshit 470 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: on that. So why do you think Looney announced these 471 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: goals again in and why should we trust VP this 472 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: time around? I think the reason that he's making this 473 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: sort of recommitment on a public relations scale is because 474 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: now there is a spotlight from large institutional investors, and 475 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: these institutional investors have really in just the last couple 476 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: of years ratcheted up their pressure on companies to show 477 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: them the money in terms of commitments on climate change. 478 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: And so for an oil and gas company, that's sort 479 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: of hard to do when your business is in fossil fuels. 480 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: And so they're seeking to sort of mollify these institutional 481 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: investors with a very slick public relations campaign that they're 482 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: trying to rebrand BP again and and I don't know 483 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: how many times one company can continually rebrand itself as 484 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: being beyond petroleum, but that's what they're trying to do here. 485 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: It's difficult for them to escape their culture of non 486 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: compliance in terms of safety and environmental record, and they're 487 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: trying desperately to get back into that decision maker seat 488 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: where they are one of the key brokers to try 489 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 1: and navigate a new climate deal, but their reputation has 490 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: taken such a big hit. I don't know if if 491 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: they're going to be the ones doing it again. What 492 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: is the number one action that you think Bernard Luni 493 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 1: should take to actually deliver on their stated purpose to 494 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: reimagine energy for people and our planet. First, I would 495 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: exit all fossil fuel trade associations, get out of the 496 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: American Patrol of Institute and all of the others. Second, 497 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: commit to specific legislative climate initiatives. Because all of these 498 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 1: companies can do their unilateral goals on their websites, but 499 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: without some sort of buy ending operation through national governments, 500 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: we're not going to see the kind of meaningful action 501 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: that's required. And so I want to see BP support 502 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: climate initiatives without the harmful caveats like it's done on 503 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: carbon taxes, where it says we'll support a carbon tax 504 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: if we have immunity from prosecution under tort law. I 505 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: think Looney needs to commit to a specific time frame 506 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: to split off the company. If he's serious about real 507 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: aggressive investments in renewables, then he's got to put his 508 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: money where his mouth is. And and right now, when 509 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: I look at where BPS money is, it's all in 510 00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: oil and gas. Tyson, is BP a bullshitter, an absolute bullshitter. 511 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: So just BP, stop the charade your oil and gas. 512 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: Love it? Okay, last question on this show. We have 513 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: a tool that we call the BS scale, and it 514 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: goes from zero to one, zero being the best, zero 515 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: BS being the worst. Total BS. So on a scale 516 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: of one two hundred on the B S scale, where 517 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: would you rate BP. They've got legitimate investments in clean energy, 518 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: it just is minuscule in proportion to their investments in 519 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: oil and gas. So I have to give them credit 520 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: for some of their genuine pivot. It's just not nearly enough. 521 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: So I love it perfect. Tyson Slocum, thank you so 522 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: much for being on the show. I really enjoyed it. Absolutely, 523 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: my pleasure Okay, folks, it's time to make the call. 524 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: Is BP really reimagining energy for people in our planet? 525 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: Based on what I've heard so far, we gotta call bullshit? 526 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: Even if Luney is serious, and that's questionable at this point, 527 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: BP isn't taking some fairly obvious actions that would signal 528 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: that seriousness. But remember, bullshit is a treatable condition. All 529 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 1: it takes is action. After the break, I'll be joined 530 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: by two experts in the oil business and climate change 531 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,680 Speaker 1: to help us explore the actions BP should take to 532 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 1: fix it. Stick with us, Welcome back. New CEO Bernard 533 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 1: Looney is saying a lot of the right things, but 534 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: we've now drilled into it and we struck BS. So 535 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: what are the actions that Bernard and his leadership team 536 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: would have to take to plug this gusher and actually 537 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,399 Speaker 1: win back our trust. I've invited two experts have joined 538 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: me to propose the concrete actions that BP needs to take. 539 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: Jamie hen, Co founder of three fifty dot org and 540 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: director of Fossil Free Media, and Duncan McLaren, Research fellow 541 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 1: at Lancaster Environmental Center with an in depth expertise in 542 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: climate and energy policy. Jimmie I'd love to start up 543 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: by just having you tell our listeners a little bit 544 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: about your background and the work that you're doing at 545 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 1: Fossil Free Media. So I started my career in climate 546 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: activism as one of the co founders of three fifty 547 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: dot org, which grew into one of the largest international 548 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: campaigns on climate change, and over the decade of working there, 549 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 1: worked on a lot of different international mobilizations and projects, 550 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: often wearing the hat of our communications director, and over 551 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: the years, one of the things that I noticed that 552 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: we were trying to raise awareness about the climate crisis 553 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: and push our governments to act, was that every time 554 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: environmental campaigners would try and come out and spur the 555 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: world into action, we would face a massive of backlash 556 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: from the fossil fuel industry, often in the form of 557 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,720 Speaker 1: pr and advertising, and so as I was thinking about 558 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: the next stage of my career at the beginning of 559 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,240 Speaker 1: I started talking with a few other colleagues and friends 560 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: about this idea of seeing if we could set up 561 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: a operation that would both provide good communications support for 562 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: groups who are taking on the fossil fuel industry, but 563 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: also see what we could do to try and throw 564 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,400 Speaker 1: a wrench in the gears of big oils propaganda machine, 565 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: and so out of that fossil free media and a 566 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: campaign that we're running called Clean Creatives were born. And 567 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: through both of those efforts we try and help environmental 568 00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: groups do a better job of communicating to the public 569 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: about the energy transition that we need to see, while 570 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 1: also calling out the work that the fossil fuel industry 571 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: and their allies are doing to try and pollute the 572 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: airwaves just as they pollute the atmosphere. Love that, Professor 573 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: Duncan McLaren. Welcome to calling BS. It's a pleasure to 574 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: be with you. I'd love to have you tell our 575 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about your background and your area 576 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,759 Speaker 1: of focus in the energy sector. So thanks. Well, I'm 577 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: sort of on my second career now. My first was 578 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: working for environmental NGOs on a whole range of topics 579 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: from sustainable development to corporate accountability, renewables development, and of 580 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: course climate targets. But in twenty eleven I gave that 581 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: up for family reasons mainly, but embarked on a PhD 582 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: looking at geoengineering technologies in the context of the climate 583 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,000 Speaker 1: justice debate, and that sort of led me into ten 584 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:40,240 Speaker 1: years of working on particularly carbon removal and more broadly 585 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: what I call the problems of technologies of prevarication, the 586 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: ones that allow us to believe that we are going 587 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: to solve the climate problem in the future with a 588 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 1: new technology rather than by delivering behavior change and lifestyle 589 00:40:56,480 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: change today. That's great, great to have you here, So 590 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:04,720 Speaker 1: let's jump right into some ideas for fixing VP Jamie, 591 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you to go first, in two minutes 592 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: or less. What's the number one thing that you think 593 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: BP should do to win our trust that they really 594 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 1: mean what they say. Well, I think that there's a 595 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,320 Speaker 1: few different categories of where we need to see action 596 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: from BP, and I'll start with the most obvious, which 597 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 1: is that they need to stop exploring for new oil 598 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: and gas and fully begin to wind down their existing 599 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: production in line with the Paris Agreement. They've made some 600 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: commitments around that, but it's needless to say they're not 601 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: yet at the pace, the scale, or really the commitment 602 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 1: that we would need to see if they were serious 603 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: about making that transition. So the nuts and bolts of 604 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: actually doing the work to stop oil and gas production 605 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: that's leading to the carbon going into our atmosphere versus 606 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: making yet more pledges and long term targets is really 607 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: where we need to see action. But I want to 608 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: highlight a couple others in my remaining minute here. First 609 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: off is on the lobbying in political front. You know, 610 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of rhetoric, as you said, from 611 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 1: Bernard Looney and BP about how they want to aid 612 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: the energy transition, but as I speak, they continue to 613 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: remain members of uh big oil trade associations and front 614 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: groups like the American Petroleum Institute, which is the leading 615 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: edge of the industry's attack on climate policy here in 616 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 1: the United States, and BP over in Europe continues to 617 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: lobby for things like natural gas being included in the 618 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: European Unions standards around investments, which is obviously not renewable 619 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: energy is it's meant to meet the criteria. So stopping 620 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 1: that lobbying is extremely important. And finally, along with that 621 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: goes stopping the sort of greenwashing and advertising that they're 622 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 1: doing that is very clearly meant to mislead the public 623 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: into believing that BP is serious about the energy transition 624 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: when the vast majority of its investments are still going 625 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: into oil and gas. Great, those are all very interesting, 626 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: and we will unpack some of those in due course. 627 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: Duncan Europe next in two minutes or less? What is 628 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: the number one thing or things that Bernard Looney should 629 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: do to get vince all of VPS deck orders that 630 00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 1: he actually means what he said. PP needs to set absolute, 631 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: hard and fast production reduction targets, stop messing around with 632 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: intensity targets and scams about which scope of emissions are 633 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 1: going to be covered. Set targets to reduce the amount 634 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: of oil and gas they produce, and those targets need 635 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: to be matched so that there is reliable, permanent, guaranteed 636 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 1: carbon removal on a ton for ton basis for any 637 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:44,120 Speaker 1: residual production that happens let's say after and probably about 638 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: of anything after that would get them in line with 639 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,400 Speaker 1: the Paris requirements. Why do I ask for this, Well, 640 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: it's centrally about a climate justice case. NET zero is 641 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 1: a great lobal target. It's got a lot of people 642 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: converging around it saying we want to do this, but 643 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: it's ambiguous. It could mean an awful lot of emissions 644 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: matched by an awful lot of removals. Imagine two elephants 645 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: sat on a sea saw as we call it a 646 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: tita totter, as the Americans call it. That's not very 647 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,640 Speaker 1: stable or sustainable. It's likely to break. What we need 648 00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: is a narrow convergence where there are only a few 649 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,520 Speaker 1: residual emissions and equal amount of carbon removal. So two 650 00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 1: mice sat on the tita totter. That means. That means 651 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: that you have less impacts from the residual emissions and 652 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 1: all the things associated with that, the extraction, the oil spills, etcetera. 653 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: These are not just climate impacts when we go digging 654 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: for oil and gas, both of those are great. It's 655 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: my turn now, I submit this humbly looney need to 656 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: do an action that would cause me to suspend my disbelief. 657 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,400 Speaker 1: And when I think about it, my skepticism really comes 658 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,320 Speaker 1: from two things. Obviously, the fact that we've been here before. 659 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: With BP, they talked a huge game about moving in 660 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: quotes beyond petroleum and then turned around and created one 661 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: of the largest environmental disasters in the history of the 662 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,279 Speaker 1: oil business in the Gulf of Mexico. But there's a 663 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: second thing that makes me skeptical that really centers around 664 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: the expectations of existing shareholders. You know, we have this 665 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: financial system where investors are trained to expect quarterly reporting 666 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: and positive quarterly results, and they're also trained to punish 667 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: c e o s who don't deliver them. And this 668 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 1: obsession with quarterly results is a major impediment to any 669 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:50,040 Speaker 1: CEO who is serious about transforming a company. And so 670 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,479 Speaker 1: my idea is that Bernard Luney should announce that PP 671 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: is going to discontinue quarterly reporting, and I think he 672 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 1: should say that his rationale for this is that the 673 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: only way to create long term shareholder value is to 674 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: think and act on behalf of shareholders in the long term. 675 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,359 Speaker 1: And there's precedent for this. Paul Polman did it at 676 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,760 Speaker 1: Unilever more than ten years ago, and Paul also managed 677 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: to deliver outstanding financial results, but those results took time. 678 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:24,400 Speaker 1: And I think that that's what Looney should do is 679 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: by himself some time by taking that one action, and 680 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: I think that would signal real change at VP. It 681 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: would signal that the board is with him on this 682 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:37,439 Speaker 1: transformation journey that he has embarked on. It would set 683 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: the stage for a number of additional actions that would 684 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: continue to build trust, for example, publicly tracking the progress 685 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,320 Speaker 1: that they're making toward the goals that they've put forward, 686 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,120 Speaker 1: transparently reporting on problems that they've encountered along the way 687 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,520 Speaker 1: without tanking the stock necessarily. So I'll pause there. What 688 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that or any of the ideas 689 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,560 Speaker 1: been moved forward. Well, I think it's interesting that you 690 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:04,640 Speaker 1: brought up investors because I think a lot of what 691 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: we've seen out of BP is aimed at a few 692 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: different audiences. Right now, marketing and PR is really focused 693 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 1: on the general public, but a lot of what BP 694 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 1: has been doing I think is best understood as trying 695 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: to persuade their investors, and not just individual investors, but 696 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,439 Speaker 1: large institutional investors like pension funds and others, that they're 697 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:27,880 Speaker 1: simultaneously serious about pursuing climate action while also maintaining their 698 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: oil and gas business. VP is trying to do this 699 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,080 Speaker 1: awkward dance where it wants to convince it's more green 700 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,560 Speaker 1: oriented investors that it's serious about climate while also showing 701 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: that it will continue to get high profits from oil 702 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: and gas. And so this dance is what I think 703 00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: we continue to see from big oil majors. Is on 704 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,279 Speaker 1: the one hand, trying to market themselves to concerned investors 705 00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: and regulators in the public as being serious about climate action, 706 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 1: while also turning around to some of their other shareholders saying, 707 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,480 Speaker 1: don't worry about all of that. We're still serious about 708 00:47:57,520 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: oil and gas and we're going to drill, baby, drill 709 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,359 Speaker 1: until the very last second. He's got a name for it, 710 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:08,840 Speaker 1: performing while transforming, and that just to me, reeks of bullshit. Duncan. 711 00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 1: What do you think about it? Yeah, Yeah, to turn 712 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:16,600 Speaker 1: to your suggestion, ty though, of discontinuing quarterly reporting. So 713 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: quarterly reports they instill a short term is um in 714 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: corporations that goes against all we want to achieve on 715 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,240 Speaker 1: the environmental and sustainability front. But at the same time, 716 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:35,120 Speaker 1: it's the over long termism of targets like net zero 717 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:41,720 Speaker 1: by that is allowing the exploitative attitude. We need action 718 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:46,000 Speaker 1: now that cuts in missions dramatically in the next decade 719 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: if we're going to be compliant with PARIS. So I 720 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: think stopping quarterly reporting could be a component of what 721 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,440 Speaker 1: BP should do. They would also clearly need to improve 722 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: the nature of a reporting so that it's properly consistent 723 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 1: with the different impacts they're having and to be accountable 724 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:14,520 Speaker 1: to stakeholders outside of the shareholders themselves. Yeah, and and 725 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,680 Speaker 1: I heard you both in your ideas essentially say that 726 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: the aims that VP has put forward are soft. Even 727 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,239 Speaker 1: for instance, net zero by can be achieved in a 728 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,080 Speaker 1: lot of different ways. And I don't want to put 729 00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,360 Speaker 1: words into your mouths, but it's you can do it 730 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,759 Speaker 1: by planting a lot of trees and offsetting, or you 731 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,560 Speaker 1: can do it by actually not pumping oil out of 732 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,799 Speaker 1: the ground. And you are advocating for the ladder rather 733 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,919 Speaker 1: than the former. Is that correct. I'm definitely saying that 734 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: VP cannot contribute to net zero if it goes on 735 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: increasing its production and emissions and believes that it can 736 00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:00,120 Speaker 1: offset all of that. So at the moment we in 737 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:06,080 Speaker 1: b people fifty thousand tons of carbon offsets, it was 738 00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:11,359 Speaker 1: responsible for around one point six giga tons of emissions. 739 00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,359 Speaker 1: So you've got to be cutting emissions. You can't just 740 00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:20,120 Speaker 1: be offsetting what is left that you might offset in 741 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: some way. You have to offset through balancing it with 742 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: things that actually remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and 743 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: they have to remove carbon permanently or durably. Can you 744 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: explain some of those permanent carbon removal technologies? Most of 745 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 1: them are currently quite speculative. There are technologies though, that 746 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: use renewable energy to capture carbon dioxide from the atmosphere 747 00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: with a chemical agent of some sort. To expose this 748 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,520 Speaker 1: chemical agent to the atmosphere, it absorbs some CEO who 749 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: You then put it in an enclosed chamber, expose it 750 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: to heat or pressure. The CEO two comes off. You 751 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:11,120 Speaker 1: can pipe it off, compress it and inject it underground, 752 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,279 Speaker 1: and as long as you do that in somewhere like 753 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: a say line aquifer, it will almost certainly stay underground 754 00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:23,000 Speaker 1: for thousands of years. Another very permanent form of carbon 755 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:27,960 Speaker 1: removal is called enhanced weathering. Again, you need some renewable energy. 756 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: You grind up basalt or other reactive rocks quite finely, 757 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: spread it on the land surface, and as the rain 758 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: flows through it, it removes or effectively the calm dark 759 00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,719 Speaker 1: side in the rainwater reacts with the rock goes off 760 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,160 Speaker 1: in the runoff, and at least in theory, ends up 761 00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 1: in the oceans, where it ends up as carbonate, and 762 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 1: that's where our limestone comes from. So that's that's millions 763 00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:00,479 Speaker 1: of years. So there's a lot of these techniques. None 764 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:05,120 Speaker 1: of them are perfect, none of them would be scalable infinitely, 765 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:11,040 Speaker 1: but where scientists are hopeful, let's say that maybe somewhere 766 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 1: between two and five gigatons a year could be removed 767 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,800 Speaker 1: using these technologies in the latter half of the century 768 00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: once once they've been developed. So it sounds like once 769 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,359 Speaker 1: again they just need to stop producing oil. I want 770 00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,520 Speaker 1: to pivot to Jamie. A big part of the BP story, 771 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: Jamie relates directly to your thesis at Fossil Free Media 772 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:36,240 Speaker 1: that AD agencies and PR companies are some of big 773 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 1: oils or maybe big carbons, not so secret weapons. How 774 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,360 Speaker 1: big a problem is the marketing industry in this equation. 775 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,879 Speaker 1: I think it's a huge problem, and I think that 776 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 1: PR and advertising and marketing have been one of the 777 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:53,400 Speaker 1: largest barriers to climate action that just because it's in 778 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: such plain sight, we often don't see it. And BP 779 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,319 Speaker 1: is a really interesting case study because I think that 780 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 1: of all the oil majors, they have always been the 781 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: most attuned to their public image. But it's worth remembering that, 782 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: as you mentioned earlier, it was all the way back 783 00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 1: in that the previous CEO of BP was making announcements 784 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:13,719 Speaker 1: about how they were going to become a new type 785 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,440 Speaker 1: of energy company, and that led to then the rebrand 786 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 1: in two thousand of BP two Beyond Petroleum. Yeah, John Brown, 787 00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,280 Speaker 1: I mean that was twenty years ago that they made 788 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:29,240 Speaker 1: this beyond Petroleum rebrand. They're not beyond petroleum twenty years later. 789 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,600 Speaker 1: And I think that we should take that lens towards 790 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,239 Speaker 1: the commitments that they're making today, that maybe there's a 791 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: higher degree of seriousness, there's more political pressure, but BP 792 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,239 Speaker 1: hasn't shown in the past that it was serious about 793 00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: any of these claims. There's a fascinating example of this 794 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: from the current era, which is actually a leaked presentation 795 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 1: that came out at the beginning of which is right 796 00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,680 Speaker 1: when Bernard Looney, the new CEO, is taking on BP 797 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: and wanted to restructure the company. And the presentation was 798 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,800 Speaker 1: done for BP by the ad agency w P P, 799 00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: which is the world's largest kind of advertising conglomerate. And 800 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,920 Speaker 1: this was an effort holding company, and this was an 801 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,160 Speaker 1: effort by w PP to kind of bring together some 802 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,399 Speaker 1: of its top people and say we're going to kind 803 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,000 Speaker 1: of do a first stab at what a new brand, 804 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,719 Speaker 1: a new image, a new marketing approach for BP could 805 00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,200 Speaker 1: look like that they would then use in all the 806 00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: advertising and all the advertising relationships that they have. And 807 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,320 Speaker 1: it's really a fascinating document because it basically walks through 808 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,520 Speaker 1: the fact that yes, BPS, you know core businesses oil 809 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,479 Speaker 1: and gas, and we're going to be expanding upstream production YadA, 810 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: YadA YadA. But also, you know, we need to convince 811 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: the public that quote, we get it on climate change, um. 812 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,560 Speaker 1: And they run through this incredible series of slides about 813 00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: how the world changed in because of the global climate 814 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,120 Speaker 1: strikes in Grettith Thunberg and everything that had happened, and 815 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: BP was wasn't trusted on this important issue of climate 816 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,799 Speaker 1: change that the public cared about. So they needed to 817 00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:59,680 Speaker 1: do something to signal that they got it on climate change. 818 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,040 Speaker 1: It could be part of the energy transition. Of course, 819 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 1: nothing in the presentation was actually about concrete things that 820 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,120 Speaker 1: they would do, like stopping gas production. It was all 821 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: about the ways that they would remark it themselves. And 822 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,680 Speaker 1: so I think it's worth all of us, you know, 823 00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: being able to see that stuff is what it is, 824 00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:19,880 Speaker 1: which is propaganda. It seems clear that the economics of 825 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,800 Speaker 1: wind and solar have gotten much much better, very compelling 826 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 1: these days. Isn't there a strong argument for BP just 827 00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:32,239 Speaker 1: being a responsible steward for their shareholders money, investing more 828 00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:36,440 Speaker 1: money in those technologies and you know, leaving some oil 829 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 1: in the ground. I think the problem is that from 830 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:46,800 Speaker 1: the shareholder perspective, from the workings of contemporary capitalism perspective, 831 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,280 Speaker 1: BAPY has these huge assets that are reserves of oil 832 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:57,080 Speaker 1: and gas in the ground, and their corporate valuation reflects 833 00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: that their ability to pay dividends or if it's that, 834 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 1: and as soon as they start saying, oh, we're going 835 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: to leave some of that in the ground, then yes, 836 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:13,240 Speaker 1: they are managing a financial decline. And in a sense 837 00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,640 Speaker 1: it means that that certainly my challenge to to burn 838 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:22,000 Speaker 1: a Lney to say, set targets for reducing production is 839 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,279 Speaker 1: going to be very hard as a businessman for him 840 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:27,640 Speaker 1: to take. I just, yeah, I want to zero in 841 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: on this point DU's making because I think it's so critical. 842 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,000 Speaker 1: I think the BP and other oil majors want to 843 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,920 Speaker 1: convince the public that their key to the energy transition. 844 00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,359 Speaker 1: The reality of it is that, yes, there is money 845 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:40,840 Speaker 1: to be made in clean energy. Maybe big oil companies 846 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,799 Speaker 1: aren't the best suited to do that. You know that 847 00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 1: there are clean energy companies that should be doing that, 848 00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,359 Speaker 1: and I think it raises a question for us, do 849 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: you really want BP to be controlling the energy of 850 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,880 Speaker 1: the future. This is the company that has for decades 851 00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:56,799 Speaker 1: run over communities, violated international human rights laws, billed oil 852 00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,200 Speaker 1: into the Gulf of Mexico, failed to clean it up, 853 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,640 Speaker 1: failed to hate the money that it was owed. I 854 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,400 Speaker 1: don't want BP running the clean energy of the future. 855 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,160 Speaker 1: I'd much prefer that it's managed publicly, that it's in 856 00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,200 Speaker 1: smaller cooperatives, and we have that choice right now. To 857 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: make that transition into Duncan's point. What we need for 858 00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: BP they should be held accountable for the damage that 859 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,520 Speaker 1: they've gone and the ill begotten profits that they've made 860 00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: during a period in which we knew, and they knew 861 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,040 Speaker 1: from their own science, that every barrel of oil they 862 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,040 Speaker 1: dug out of the ground was furthering a planetary catastrophe. 863 00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,320 Speaker 1: They knew that last quarter when they made record profits. 864 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:36,200 Speaker 1: So why should they and their shareholders who also knew 865 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,919 Speaker 1: that and have decided to stick with BP, why should 866 00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 1: they be rewarded for that? So, if I may, what 867 00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,880 Speaker 1: I'd like to emphasize about that is how the dynamic 868 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 1: of oil companies wanting to maintain the value of their reserves, 869 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:58,200 Speaker 1: and oil companies doing political lobbying and marketing to position 870 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:02,920 Speaker 1: themselves as part of the energy transition are both about 871 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,680 Speaker 1: the modern face of climate denial. The modern face of 872 00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:10,840 Speaker 1: climate denial is about delay. It's to say, oh, yeah, 873 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:14,400 Speaker 1: of course, now we're we're happily accept that climate change 874 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,440 Speaker 1: is happening. We understand this is a problem. But if 875 00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:21,000 Speaker 1: we move too quickly, then we cause all sorts of 876 00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:26,160 Speaker 1: other problems, and those things all converge around them extracting 877 00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:31,280 Speaker 1: the most profit from their asset base and continuing to 878 00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,479 Speaker 1: prolong the climate crisis. I want to ask you both 879 00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,080 Speaker 1: to suspend your disbelief for a minute, because in this 880 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:44,000 Speaker 1: part of the show, I do want to explore actual ideas, 881 00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:46,880 Speaker 1: like if we're going to take them seriously and say, okay, 882 00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,960 Speaker 1: they really Meanwhile, they're really trying to do this, what 883 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: should they do? So so let me run a couple 884 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,080 Speaker 1: of ideas past both of you and just get your 885 00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,560 Speaker 1: get your take. So, first of all, John Brown, the 886 00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:03,480 Speaker 1: former CEO of EP who actually initiated the Beyond Petroleum 887 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,600 Speaker 1: rebrand and and began what I believe was at the 888 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: time a genuine attempt at a transition to being a 889 00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: sustainable energy company. He recently said that he thinks that 890 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,360 Speaker 1: the company should be split into to spin out the 891 00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,200 Speaker 1: renewable energy assets the company has as a separate company, 892 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,800 Speaker 1: essentially create VP Future, which is rapidly growing, less capital 893 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,000 Speaker 1: intensive and valued at a premium by investors, and BP 894 00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:36,120 Speaker 1: passed the oil assets, which are capital intensive, unloved by 895 00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,800 Speaker 1: the market and in decline, and then just let the 896 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,760 Speaker 1: market decide. So this is a former CEO saying this, 897 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: what's your take on that? Yeah, that would be interesting 898 00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,440 Speaker 1: if PP moved in that direction. The one thing I'd 899 00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,919 Speaker 1: raise on it as a challenge. I know we're trying 900 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:54,120 Speaker 1: to be a bit more optimistic here, but since Duck 901 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,640 Speaker 1: and I are good skeptics, it's okay. Is that the 902 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,800 Speaker 1: liability issue. If if BP has known for decades that 903 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,640 Speaker 1: their products were causing climate change, like Big Tobacco new 904 01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 1: that its product was addictive and causing health impacts, what 905 01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,640 Speaker 1: sort of responsibility do they have to help pay for 906 01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:14,600 Speaker 1: the damage that those products have cost. And so when 907 01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 1: we talk about BP being able to spin off a company, 908 01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:20,000 Speaker 1: you know that's often what companies do to avoid liability. 909 01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,280 Speaker 1: And so I think the question would be making sure 910 01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:24,400 Speaker 1: that um, you know, they're not able to kind of 911 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,440 Speaker 1: dodge their social responsibility by creating a dirty version of 912 01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,480 Speaker 1: their industry and then hiding the assets there. But maybe 913 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,960 Speaker 1: to embroider the thoughts of what would be p do 914 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,320 Speaker 1: if they were admitting some liability, what would be the 915 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:45,680 Speaker 1: sort of investments or spending they should do. And here 916 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:48,600 Speaker 1: I think that the idea of a just transition and 917 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,920 Speaker 1: energy transition that actually pays attention to social justice in 918 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: terms of consumer need and worker need would be helpful. 919 01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,040 Speaker 1: And you may know there's been extinction rebellion spinoff campaign 920 01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:05,840 Speaker 1: in the UK recently called Insulate Britain. Well, I think 921 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:09,480 Speaker 1: that's what BP should do. That they should actually do 922 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:14,480 Speaker 1: the program of retrofitting good insulation in the homes of 923 01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,640 Speaker 1: people in fuel poverty, particularly the homes of people who 924 01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 1: are in fuel poverty because of the rising gas prices. 925 01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,080 Speaker 1: And they should go a step further, of course, which 926 01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: is go around all those homes and install heat pumps 927 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,400 Speaker 1: instead of gas boilers, so that they could then cut 928 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:35,760 Speaker 1: the demand for the product that they've been selling and 929 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:40,440 Speaker 1: profiting from the cost of climate change. I mean, that's 930 01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 1: a really important point, and I think Duncan raises another 931 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,560 Speaker 1: piece of this which is interesting, which is that for 932 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:49,280 Speaker 1: the transition to take place, we also have to deal 933 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,160 Speaker 1: with all of the oil and gas infrastructure that currently exists. 934 01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:53,640 Speaker 1: You know, you can't just turn it off and then 935 01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,640 Speaker 1: leave it. They're spewing methane for decades to come, and 936 01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,000 Speaker 1: so there's an incredible amount of work that BP could 937 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,960 Speaker 1: be doing, and it could be engaging probably more people 938 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 1: that are currently employs to deal with all of the 939 01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 1: various oil and gas wells and infrastructure that has left behind. 940 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,160 Speaker 1: These in many ways, are forever liabilities that we're gonna 941 01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,120 Speaker 1: have to deal with. It's not quite so simple as 942 01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:15,760 Speaker 1: plugging a well and hoping that it never admits methane again. 943 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:17,680 Speaker 1: You need people to go back and check it and 944 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: verify that it's been done right, and then you know, 945 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,680 Speaker 1: manage that process going forward. And so there there is 946 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,480 Speaker 1: a role in a way to kind of reimagine energy 947 01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:30,240 Speaker 1: companies of the past, these oil and gas giants playing 948 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,160 Speaker 1: a role, as Duncan was saying, and helping kind of 949 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,120 Speaker 1: do the retrofits and transition we need to move to 950 01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,120 Speaker 1: clean energy, but also taking some responsibility for managing the 951 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:41,560 Speaker 1: damage that they've done and making sure that over the 952 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,200 Speaker 1: decades to come, we're not having big blowouts of you know, 953 01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:48,959 Speaker 1: c O two that's been pumped somewhere, or numerous oil 954 01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,320 Speaker 1: and gas wells continuing to leak methane and push us 955 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:55,600 Speaker 1: past global limits. Now tie to your question about shareholders, 956 01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:00,520 Speaker 1: this may require us rethinking some of these says when 957 01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,280 Speaker 1: it comes to capitalism, or beginning to at least put 958 01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,959 Speaker 1: in some interesting government incentives and doing the finance work 959 01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,280 Speaker 1: to do that. And so I think that campaigners over 960 01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:11,360 Speaker 1: the last few years have really begun to focus on 961 01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:14,800 Speaker 1: finance as a key target, pressuring folks like Black Rock, JP, 962 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: Morgan Chase, you know, others to play a larger role here. 963 01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,960 Speaker 1: We need those players to come in. BP might not 964 01:03:22,040 --> 01:03:24,360 Speaker 1: be able to do this loan. They're big, but maybe 965 01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:26,520 Speaker 1: they're not quite big enough to manage this, and so 966 01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: figuring out the ways to structure their debts and get 967 01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,440 Speaker 1: government regulators involved in financed this whole transition is a 968 01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,800 Speaker 1: really interesting process that we need people to start thinking about. 969 01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,600 Speaker 1: Pent Look, we're we're big fans of the notion of 970 01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,320 Speaker 1: rethinking capitalism on this show, but I want to follow 971 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,600 Speaker 1: that thread because you mentioned black Rock, and we've done 972 01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,160 Speaker 1: enough that black Rock, and we spoke with Taric Fancy, 973 01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,160 Speaker 1: who's the former head of sustainable investing at black Rock 974 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,840 Speaker 1: and left because he just ultimately felt like he was 975 01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:02,840 Speaker 1: engaged in greenwashing there. And his take on the problem 976 01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,560 Speaker 1: is that it is I don't want to put words 977 01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,960 Speaker 1: in his mouth, but his basic thesis was that it's 978 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,440 Speaker 1: hopelessly naive to expect companies to essentially self regulate, and 979 01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:15,560 Speaker 1: he thinks that regulation, specifically a carbon tax, is the 980 01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,280 Speaker 1: only medicine that will solve the problem of climate change. 981 01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,640 Speaker 1: What are the two of you think about That a 982 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:24,440 Speaker 1: carbon tax could be a very helpful tool, It alone 983 01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:30,040 Speaker 1: is unlikely to solve the problem because simply what we've 984 01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:35,120 Speaker 1: seen in the past is that the generic incentive that 985 01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:39,520 Speaker 1: a carbon tax or equivalent gives is rarely enough to 986 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:44,640 Speaker 1: bring about the transformation and technologies. So I think, yeah, 987 01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,560 Speaker 1: carbon tax good can help, not the single answer. Of course, 988 01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,960 Speaker 1: when we're when we're talking about carbon taxes as the answer, 989 01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,040 Speaker 1: we have to remember that that BP spent thirteen million 990 01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,360 Speaker 1: dollars in eighteen blocking a carbon tax in a divin 991 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:04,600 Speaker 1: Washington State, and then afterwards just said, oh, well, it 992 01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:10,080 Speaker 1: wasn't the right carbon tax initiative. And my experience going 993 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,080 Speaker 1: back over the years is that this is a common narrative. 994 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: When companies are offered taxes, they say the taxes aren't 995 01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:21,080 Speaker 1: quite right and they weren't voluntary measures. When they're offered 996 01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:24,360 Speaker 1: voluntary measures, they say, well, then we'll get undercut by 997 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,919 Speaker 1: the cowboys, so we need regulatory measures. And when they're 998 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,960 Speaker 1: offered regulatory measures, they say, well, this isn't really the 999 01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:34,960 Speaker 1: free market. Why don't we have taxes. Yeah, we have 1000 01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,920 Speaker 1: a word for that. We call it bullshit. Which brings 1001 01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:42,880 Speaker 1: me to my final question for both of you on 1002 01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:46,640 Speaker 1: calling BS. We have something called the BS index or 1003 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,240 Speaker 1: the BS scale, and it goes from zero to one, 1004 01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,760 Speaker 1: zero being the best score zero BS and a hundred 1005 01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:58,480 Speaker 1: being the worst total BS. I want to ask both 1006 01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:01,240 Speaker 1: of you to read be e P on the B 1007 01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:09,320 Speaker 1: S scale. I'll start with you, Duncan. That's that's interesting. 1008 01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw them a bone and give them only 1009 01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:22,040 Speaker 1: a writing. Okay, you're in a good mood today. Um, 1010 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:25,360 Speaker 1: all right, thank you for that, Duncan and Jamie, Well, 1011 01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:27,800 Speaker 1: I'm glad Duncan said a high bar. You know, I 1012 01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,840 Speaker 1: was thinking about this in two ways. One is sort 1013 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,400 Speaker 1: of the only standard that really matters, which is the 1014 01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:35,560 Speaker 1: kind of standard of physics and chemistry and the climate, 1015 01:06:35,680 --> 01:06:39,200 Speaker 1: in which case, you know, maybe we'll give BP a 1016 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,120 Speaker 1: score that relates to the amount of money they're still 1017 01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,480 Speaker 1: investing of their capex and in oil and gas, which 1018 01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:47,960 Speaker 1: is something like a ninety six percent um, And you know, 1019 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:49,640 Speaker 1: maybe that's a good way to do it now, to 1020 01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:51,800 Speaker 1: throw them a bit of a bone, as Duncan did, 1021 01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,120 Speaker 1: and we're trying to be charitable. I would say that 1022 01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:57,200 Speaker 1: BP is ahead of the other oil companies, and so 1023 01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:00,760 Speaker 1: maybe we'll drop it down to a nineties Nan was saying, 1024 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,640 Speaker 1: because I think two bps credit. They have been the 1025 01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:05,840 Speaker 1: only one to really say that they do need to 1026 01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:09,440 Speaker 1: reduce production. They did right off seventeen billion dollars of 1027 01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:12,040 Speaker 1: oil and gas assets by saying that those were stranded 1028 01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,160 Speaker 1: and needed to be kept in the ground. And they 1029 01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,919 Speaker 1: have talked about sort of the larger need for this 1030 01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:20,160 Speaker 1: transition to happen. And so you know, again, if anybody 1031 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:21,960 Speaker 1: feels like we're being a little too harsh on them, 1032 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,080 Speaker 1: just remember that they rebranded back into Fast and here 1033 01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,480 Speaker 1: we are today, and so I would take everything they 1034 01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:30,000 Speaker 1: do with a bit of skepticism, but at the very least, 1035 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,600 Speaker 1: it's good to see them beginning to move agreed. Okay, 1036 01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,680 Speaker 1: listen this this was a great conversation. I could have 1037 01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:37,720 Speaker 1: spent the rest of the afternoon talking with both of you. 1038 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:42,880 Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. So, folks, it's time to give 1039 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:47,880 Speaker 1: BP our official BS score. The companies saying all the 1040 01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,560 Speaker 1: right things, but they lost massive amounts of trust when 1041 01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:54,640 Speaker 1: they did this to us the first time, and as 1042 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:57,520 Speaker 1: all of our experts have pointed out today, their actions 1043 01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:02,200 Speaker 1: so far are inadequate and incoherent at best. Based on 1044 01:08:02,200 --> 01:08:05,280 Speaker 1: what I've heard today, I'm going to give BP a 1045 01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,440 Speaker 1: ninety five. To bring that score down, they're gonna need 1046 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:13,040 Speaker 1: to make some big changes. To weigh in with your 1047 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,040 Speaker 1: own score, visit our website Calling Bullshit Podcast dot com. 1048 01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:20,960 Speaker 1: We'll track BP's behavior over time to see if they 1049 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:23,800 Speaker 1: can bring it down. You'll also be able to see 1050 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:27,320 Speaker 1: where BP ranks on BS compared to the other companies 1051 01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:31,200 Speaker 1: and organizations we feature on this show. And if you're 1052 01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:34,160 Speaker 1: starting a purpose led business or you're thinking of beginning 1053 01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:37,719 Speaker 1: the journey of transformation to become one Here are three 1054 01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:44,280 Speaker 1: things that you should take away from this episode. One, 1055 01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:49,000 Speaker 1: Transparency and coherence build trust. It comes up over and 1056 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:53,320 Speaker 1: over again this season. BPS saying that they're pivoting to 1057 01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,360 Speaker 1: become a sustainable energy company but then also trying to 1058 01:08:57,400 --> 01:09:01,760 Speaker 1: convince the world that natural gas is a sustainable, renewable 1059 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:06,760 Speaker 1: energy resource is just ludicrous, as is claiming that you're 1060 01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,360 Speaker 1: taking on climate change while at the same time remaining 1061 01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:14,160 Speaker 1: a dues paying member of an industry trade group that's 1062 01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:19,280 Speaker 1: spreading misinformation about climate change. If your words and deeds 1063 01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:23,200 Speaker 1: lack coherence, then anything you say, even if it's true, 1064 01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:31,040 Speaker 1: will seem ridiculous. Two, show me the money. It's all 1065 01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:34,719 Speaker 1: about action. If VP means it, they need to prove 1066 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,559 Speaker 1: it through action. Today we've talked about important actions like 1067 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,800 Speaker 1: cutting support for industry lobbying groups that are climate change deniers, 1068 01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:50,640 Speaker 1: or discontinuing any misleading pr or advertising, and potentially seismic 1069 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,519 Speaker 1: actions like actually breaking the company into to make it 1070 01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:58,400 Speaker 1: really clear that there is a dirty fossil fuel VP 1071 01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,160 Speaker 1: of the past at a clean VP of the renewable 1072 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:06,840 Speaker 1: and sustainable energy future, and then letting investors choose which 1073 01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:11,000 Speaker 1: one they want to invest in. Your actions would undoubtedly 1074 01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:17,879 Speaker 1: be different, but the point is doing is always believing. Three. 1075 01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,479 Speaker 1: Let's forget about the oil for a minute. There's gold 1076 01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,680 Speaker 1: in this episode for purpose led entrepreneurs who want to 1077 01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:29,160 Speaker 1: create the BPS of tomorrow. As Jamie and Duncan both said, 1078 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:32,680 Speaker 1: Big Oil has dragged its feet for so long that 1079 01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:37,000 Speaker 1: BP and the other super majors may not be savable, 1080 01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,200 Speaker 1: and that's fine. Sometimes companies just need to go away. 1081 01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,519 Speaker 1: But there's an opportunity here to start a green energy 1082 01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,719 Speaker 1: company that isn't weighed down by legacy investments in fossil fuel. 1083 01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:53,400 Speaker 1: If nothing else, I hope this episode inspires somebody to 1084 01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:58,839 Speaker 1: just go make that happen. And Bernard Looney, CEO of BP, 1085 01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:01,559 Speaker 1: if you, whoever want to come on the show and 1086 01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,800 Speaker 1: talk about any of the ideas or topics that we 1087 01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,519 Speaker 1: touch on in this episode, I want you to know 1088 01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:14,360 Speaker 1: you have an open invitation. I'd like to thank everyone 1089 01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: who joined us today, Tyson Slocum, Jamie Hen and Duncan McLaren. 1090 01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,280 Speaker 1: You can learn more about them in our show notes. 1091 01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:26,760 Speaker 1: And if you have ideas for companies or organizations we 1092 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:30,559 Speaker 1: should consider for future episodes, you can submit them on 1093 01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:35,160 Speaker 1: our website calling Bullshit podcast dot com and if we 1094 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:39,519 Speaker 1: performed while transforming you today, please let us know by 1095 01:11:39,640 --> 01:11:42,280 Speaker 1: rating and reviewing us on the I Heart Radio app, 1096 01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:48,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And thanks 1097 01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:53,360 Speaker 1: to our production team Hannah Beal, Amanda Ginsburg, Andy Kim 1098 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:59,880 Speaker 1: d s Moss, Hailey Pascalites, MICHAELA. Reid, Parker, Silzer based 1099 01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:04,760 Speaker 1: Soaper and me John Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created by 1100 01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,920 Speaker 1: co Collective and is hosted by Me Time onto you. 1101 01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:20,800 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Before you go, we'd love to hear 1102 01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,759 Speaker 1: what you think about the show. Maybe you were inspired 1103 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:27,200 Speaker 1: to take action, maybe you disagree with today's bullshit rating. 1104 01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,400 Speaker 1: Either way, we want to hear about it. Leave us 1105 01:12:30,439 --> 01:12:33,200 Speaker 1: a message at two one two five oh five to 1106 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:37,400 Speaker 1: Zo five, or send a voice memo to CBS podcast 1107 01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,960 Speaker 1: at co collective dot com. You might even be featured 1108 01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:42,360 Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode.