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Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowland's Reese and you're listening to Switched

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Speaker 1: on the BNF podcast. Today we're discussing the revival of

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Speaker 1: nuclear power in the United States, driven by the demand

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Speaker 1: of hyperscaling tech giants led by the boom in AI.

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Speaker 1: The rapid growth of energy hungry data centers has resulted

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Speaker 1: in an ever increasing outlook for electricity demand, which the

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Speaker 1: US Energy Information Administration forecasts at three percent growth for

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four alone. With the need for a secure

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour energy supply, nuclear power fits the bill.

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Speaker 1: The nuclear path isn't as straightforward as it would seem, however,

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Speaker 1: Small modular reactors or SMRs are still in a development phase,

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Speaker 1: Regulatory hurdles remain in place, and cost concerns coupled with

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Speaker 1: project overruns have been a persistent problem. Regardless, the need

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Speaker 1: to secure energy to power their ever expanding data center

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Speaker 1: fleet has led to companies such as Amazon, Google, and

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Speaker 1: Microsoft to announce a flurry of deals with nuclear energy companies.

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Speaker 1: To discuss the details of this nuclear revival further, Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm joined by BNFEED nuclear analyst Kris Kodomski to review

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Speaker 1: findings from his recent report Hyperscaler's Energy Appetite boosts Nuclear Prospects.

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Speaker 1: Bn F clients were able to access this and other

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Speaker 1: related research at BNF go on the Bloomberg Terminal and

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Speaker 1: at BF dot com. Now let's talk to Chris about

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Speaker 1: data centers and nuclear energy. Chris, lovely to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us. It's great to be back.

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Speaker 1: You have been covering the nuclear industry at BNF for

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Speaker 1: a number of years. Were you covering it before BNF

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Speaker 1: as well? You've been at the company longer than I have, so.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I was. As a matter of fact, I was

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Speaker 2: first intrigued by the nuclear industry by doing studies following

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Speaker 2: the collapse of the former Soviet Union and understanding what

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Speaker 2: market opportunities existed in the power sector in those countries

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Speaker 2: that were affected, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic and in Hungary.

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Speaker 2: And then I went into the yucka mountain repositor that

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Speaker 2: was being built or had been built in Nevada, and

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Speaker 2: we had spent six billion dollars to do that and

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Speaker 2: we weren't going to use it. So I kind of intrigued,

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Speaker 2: why would we spend six billion dollars being in nuclear

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Speaker 2: repository and not use it. So that's what really got

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Speaker 2: me intrigued.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the reason I asked this question, you know,

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Speaker 1: how long you've been covering nuclear is I am imagining

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Speaker 1: that you have seen nuclear come in and out of

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Speaker 1: fashion in the sort of both the public and government

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Speaker 1: and private domain. You know, kind of being cool and uncool,

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Speaker 1: and then maybe cool again and then sort of in

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Speaker 1: some form uncool. In terms of the sort of that cycle,

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Speaker 1: where do you see nuclear right now? You know, both

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Speaker 1: in terms of how it's perceived and in terms of

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Speaker 1: what the state of the actual global nuclear fleet is

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Speaker 1: right now.

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Speaker 2: First of all, we need to understand that the nuclear

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Speaker 2: industry moves like molasses, and it's that quick moving. It

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Speaker 2: just goes very very steadily forward or backwards. What has

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Speaker 2: happened in the last twenty four months or so is

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Speaker 2: that there is a tremendous interest in nuclear power for

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Speaker 2: two reasons. The first reason is for trying to address

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Speaker 2: unresolved issues with regards to climate change. It's a very

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Speaker 2: strong and powerful technology, and I think the world is

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Speaker 2: starting to recognize that it is something that we need

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Speaker 2: as part of a portfolio of technologies to solve climate change.

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Speaker 2: But what really pushed nuclear forward recently has been the

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Speaker 2: Russian event in the Ukraine, when all of a sudden

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Speaker 2: energy security has become a very very high priority for

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Speaker 2: countries in Europe, in the United States, and realizing that

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Speaker 2: nuclear does provide a tremendous sense of security and it's

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Speaker 2: not intermittent, and it's a very very powerful technology that

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Speaker 2: should be part of the equation for climate change and

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Speaker 2: for national security. Got it.

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Speaker 1: And then I suppose to that point about climate that

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Speaker 1: manifested itself twenty eight, which was in Dubai with this

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Speaker 1: tripling nuclear pledge, which I mean, I know you've written about,

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Speaker 1: and I think that your view is that it's going

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Speaker 1: to be very difficult to achieve, if that's a polite

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Speaker 1: way of putting it. But at least it shows like

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Speaker 1: everything you're saying is sort of again this technology that

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Speaker 1: maybe at some point, you know, if we go back

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Speaker 1: to Fukushima and what happened there with the earthquake and

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Speaker 1: then the tsunami, and then you know what we saw

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Speaker 1: then the reaction in Germany that was very much a

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Speaker 1: technology that was out of fashion to an extent one

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Speaker 1: could even describe as irrationally so and it seems like

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Speaker 1: now that you know from everything you've described, nuclear is

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Speaker 1: beginning to have a bit of a moment again because

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Speaker 1: of again of global events.

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Speaker 2: Nuclear is having a moment if you rely on politicians, statements,

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Speaker 2: NGOs who are freaking out that we're not really resolving

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Speaker 2: addressing net zero aspirations in climate change. But when you

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Speaker 2: look into the nuts and bolts and you realize how

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Speaker 2: difficult and challenging it is to build these nuclear power plants,

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Speaker 2: at least in the West, now that it becomes a

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Speaker 2: much harder and more difficult slog than there are in

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Speaker 2: other places in the world. We've lost the ability in

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Speaker 2: the West to build nuclear power plants on time and

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Speaker 2: on budget. And that's manifested by the fact that the

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Speaker 2: Chinese can build a nuclear power plant, a large one,

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Speaker 2: for maybe one fifth of the court that we can

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Speaker 2: do it in the United States. So it's understandable that

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Speaker 2: the Chinese are building twenty nine nuclear power plants right

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Speaker 2: now and the US is not building any simply because

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Speaker 2: every utility in the country is freaking out by the

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Speaker 2: realization that the next nuclear reactor may be slightly cheaper

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Speaker 2: or maybe not got it.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like even if maybe nuclear is becoming

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Speaker 1: a little bit more popular again, it doesn't magically make

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Speaker 1: it easier to do or solve the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the US, at least, the skilled workforce required to

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Speaker 1: build these reactors isn't there.

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Speaker 2: We assembled a skilled workforce for building the Vogel three,

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Speaker 2: for the last two reactors that were completed, that was

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Speaker 2: completed several months ago. Finally, what has happened to that workforce?

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Speaker 2: There is no second large nuclear project for them to

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Speaker 2: go to. In China, you'll have six reactors built on

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Speaker 2: the same site, and the workforce will go from one

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Speaker 2: to the next, to next to next. Where are all

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Speaker 2: those workers that built the Vogel three and four. There's

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Speaker 2: no new nuclear project being proposed or actually constructed now,

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Speaker 2: so they're being dispersed and pursuing other opportunities.

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Speaker 1: Seems like a missed opportunity because a lot of maybe

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Speaker 1: you could characterize the cost overruns with that project, is

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Speaker 1: the cost of learning again, training up those workers, you know,

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Speaker 1: developing those skills in the country. And then the US

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Speaker 1: is not taking advantage of that. Right.

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Speaker 2: The US government is suggesting that the next ap one thousand,

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Speaker 2: the reactor or the next large reactor that theoretically would

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Speaker 2: be built in this country will come in at a

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Speaker 2: cost advantage of say thirty percent. I'm not exactly sure

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Speaker 2: that will happen. I'd love to see it happen, but

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Speaker 2: I'm questioning whether or not that can happen in an

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Speaker 2: environment where we have persistent inflation and higher interest rates

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Speaker 2: than we had over the last couple of years.

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Speaker 1: So this is kind of, you know, tease up the

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Speaker 1: sort of getting onto the main topic today. So, as

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Speaker 1: I mentioned, we have maybe a more favorable view developing

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Speaker 1: globally for nuclear and in the US, but maybe an

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Speaker 1: industry that is not in a state to step up

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Speaker 1: to where it needs to be to kind of ride

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Speaker 1: that wave. Mixing my metaphors. And then suddenly there's this

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Speaker 1: new factor you mentioned climate, you mentioned Russia and energy security.

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Speaker 1: And then there's this third thing that everyone is talking about,

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Speaker 1: which is demand growth for electricity coming from data centers.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that's going to shake things up

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Speaker 1: in any way?

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Speaker 2: I certainly think it will, and we're seeing evidence of

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Speaker 2: that where the large Hyperscalers, the Amazons, the Googles, the Microsofts,

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Speaker 2: the meta are all negotiating contracts with advanced reactor companies

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Speaker 2: and also suggest that we bring back some of the

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Speaker 2: older reactors that have been prematurely retired because of inexpensive

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Speaker 2: natural gas or intermittent renewables. And these are very valuable

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Speaker 2: assets that I will continue to serve for for several

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Speaker 2: more years. So it is a combination of we need

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Speaker 2: reliable twenty four to seven electricity that is carbon free,

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Speaker 2: and nuclear power is a great source of that.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because you mentioned both the advanced reactors

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Speaker 1: and then this idea of bringing back some of the

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Speaker 1: older reactors. So let's focus for a second on the

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Speaker 1: advanced reactors. Why are they being spoken about? You know,

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Speaker 1: why is there so much interest in those parsically because

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Speaker 1: unlike the conventional reactors, they're not proven. So there's this

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Speaker 1: new challenge and we're looking to a new solution rather

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Speaker 1: than an existing solution.

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Speaker 2: So one has to realize that there's five pathways to

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Speaker 2: nuclear power. There are large reactors, small modulear reactors, advanced

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Speaker 2: reactors now explain the difference, microreactors less than fifty magua,

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Speaker 2: and finally fusion. Each one of these technologies have different

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Speaker 2: risk profiles, cost uncertainty, and timelines to commercialization. So when

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Speaker 2: you look at a large reactor, it took fifteen years

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Speaker 2: from filing of the initial application license until electrons are

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Speaker 2: flowing onto the grid. For many of these hyperscalers waiting

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Speaker 2: for fifteen years, we've missed the opportunity. But will the

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Speaker 2: SMRs or the advanced reactors cross the finish line sooner

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Speaker 2: and be able to deliver electrons to the grid before that,

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Speaker 2: And the vendor suggests yes, they will, they're looking at

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Speaker 2: the end of this decade. I suggest that's probably more

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Speaker 2: likely after twenty thirty, given the molasses movement historically of

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Speaker 2: the nuclear power industry, so that we're looking at twenty thirty.

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Speaker 2: But there are several other reasons why you'd like to

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Speaker 2: look at a SOMR. There's a smaller emergency planning zone,

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Speaker 2: so you don't have more area that needs to be

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Speaker 2: excluded unpopulated around these nuclear power pl Allegedly, there's a

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Speaker 2: quicker time to market, as we've talked about, there's lower

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Speaker 2: upfront capital costs, so you're talking thirty four billion dollars

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Speaker 2: for two large reactors. You can get a three hundred

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Speaker 2: megawote reactor an unspecified cost, but it's going to be

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Speaker 2: less than the costs of the large reactors hypothetically. And

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Speaker 2: then there's also the ability to add capacity as you

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Speaker 2: need it. As the data center demands grow, you can

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Speaker 2: add incrementally to the power supply. And finally, you avoid

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Speaker 2: the problem of single shaft risk if the reactor. If

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Speaker 2: you lose a thousand megawatts of capacity, if something goes on,

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Speaker 2: it's a problem. If you have three three hundred megawatt

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Speaker 2: reactors operating, if you lose three hundred megawats, you may

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Speaker 2: be able to find a work around that's not going

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Speaker 2: to be so catastrophic.

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Speaker 1: So there's various facts. I think the one that's really

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Speaker 1: interesting is this kind of time to market that you mentioned.

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Speaker 1: You know, because this demand growth in relations data sensors

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Speaker 1: is so pressing. So are you saying that we know

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Speaker 1: that conventional nuclear takes a long time. Even though there's

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Speaker 1: all the issues we mentioned with the workforce in the US,

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Speaker 1: it is still a known quantity to some extent. And

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Speaker 1: what we know is that from a regulatory perspective, it's

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Speaker 1: going to be working through molasses. And so some of

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Speaker 1: these small modular reactors they're kind of what they're banking

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Speaker 1: on is that that process is so slow. If they

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Speaker 1: have a technology that does not need to have such

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Speaker 1: tight regulatory oversight, they can maybe commercialize that technology and

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Speaker 1: get it through the regulatory process in the same kind

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Speaker 1: of time frame that it would take for conventional nuclear

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Speaker 1: to just get through the regulatory process. Is that what

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Speaker 1: their their role of the dice is.

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Speaker 2: Well, the role of the dice is that we will

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Speaker 2: go through the regulatory process and then we will be

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Speaker 2: able to deliver and build these reactors in a faster timeframe.

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Speaker 2: They're sorter timeframe than the larger reactors. And very, very importantly,

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Speaker 2: we talk about the difference between the first of a

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Speaker 2: kind cost and the nth of a kind cost. How

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Speaker 2: fast can a reactor or vendor proceed down the learning curve.

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Speaker 2: If you're making small reactors and you have a long

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Speaker 2: pipeline of potential customers, you can invest in the manufacturing

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Speaker 2: infrastructure with which to make these reactors, build these reactors

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Speaker 2: more efficiently, and then get down the learning curve. Think

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Speaker 2: what it's like to sort of manufacture reactors in something

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Speaker 2: similar to a commercial Boeing jet manufacturing facility.

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Speaker 1: And what's interesting there as well? I mean you mentioned, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're smaller so you can come down the cost curve

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Speaker 1: faster to get to end of a kind. And the

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Speaker 1: other thing that is essential to doing that is having

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Speaker 1: a kind of a pipeline of customers. And if I

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Speaker 1: think about wind and solar, the tech industry has been

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Speaker 1: really essential in various different ways in developing the market

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Speaker 1: in the US for those technologies. And so it's interesting

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Speaker 1: then that you know, now we're talking about data centers

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Speaker 1: creating this new demand, this new interest from the tech

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Speaker 1: industry in new nuclear technologies. I would characterize that nuclear

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Speaker 1: probably can't succeed without the interest of that particular sector.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong. I mean, you can push back on

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Speaker 1: that if you don't agree. But to that point, which

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Speaker 1: companies have we seen engaging with nuclear and in what

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Speaker 1: particular technologies?

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Speaker 2: So the four major hyperscalers are all very much involved.

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Speaker 2: We have Amazon has invested in one of the advanced

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Speaker 2: reactor companies and now it's ex Energy. They can participate

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Speaker 2: in the Series C five hundred million dollar financing, and

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Speaker 2: that was there. Google has committed to buy a certain

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Speaker 2: amount of energy from several chiros multen salt reactors technologies

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Speaker 2: that they're developing. And Microsoft has contracted to buy electricity

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Speaker 2: from some of the large reactors that are being brought

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Speaker 2: back to life, specifically the Three Mile Island in Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 2: And just the other day Meta got into the act

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Speaker 2: and asked for a request for prosals for between one

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Speaker 2: to four gigawatts of nuclear power to power their data centers.

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Speaker 1: That's so interesting, and I remember in your the note

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Speaker 1: that you wrote about this topic. The thing that was

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Speaker 1: also interesting. I think it was even companies that were

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Speaker 1: not necessarily engaged with the tech companies directly saw their

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Speaker 1: share prices increase with each of these announcements. I suppose

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Speaker 1: it's not just reflecting how much influence these tech companies

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Speaker 1: interest has on the sector's prospects as a whole.

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Speaker 2: The two companies that you're talking about Oklo trades on

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Speaker 2: the New York Stock Exchange Oklo and New Scale trades,

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Speaker 2: I think it's over the counter. SMR is the symbol.

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Speaker 2: New Scale suffered a setback at the end of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty three when their principal project selling four hundred and

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Speaker 2: seventy two megawate plant to uamps based on the Idaho

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Speaker 2: National That project was canceled because of allegedly high costs

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Speaker 2: that stock try to below two dollars or close to

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Speaker 2: two dollars. I checked today that stock is up to

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Speaker 2: twenty six dollars. New Scale has the only company so

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Speaker 2: far that has gone through the licensing gauntlet of the

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Speaker 2: NRC with their fifty megawatt reactor. They're upgrading they're designed

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Speaker 2: to seventy seven megawatts and they hope that they will

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Speaker 2: be out of the gate with that sometime in the

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Speaker 2: middle of twenty twenty five. And they have many negotiations

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Speaker 2: with potential data center companies, and so there's a tremendous

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Speaker 2: amount of interest for them. They seem to be ahead

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Speaker 2: of the market. Olklow as well has signed various different

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Speaker 2: contracts with data center companies. They're having an approach which

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Speaker 2: are much smaller up to fifty megawatch reactor which can

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Speaker 2: be deployed very quickly, very easily. They're in the process

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Speaker 2: of talking with the US Air Force for building a

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Speaker 2: reactor that will sell electricity to an Air Force base

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Speaker 2: in Alaska, and that's a very interesting project. Their technology

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Speaker 2: is also well suited to providing and displacing electricity from

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Speaker 2: diesel generators in the far north of Canada.

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Speaker 1: For example, when you're talking about New Scale. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: the NRC, which I presume is an abbreviation for Nuclear

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Speaker 1: Regulatory Commission.

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Speaker 2: Exactly.

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Speaker 1: Amazing, So, apart from clarifying what that abbreviation means, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of curious because it sounds to me like from

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Speaker 1: the way you're describing it is that if we're looking

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Speaker 1: at the progress these companies are making in getting real

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Speaker 1: credible projects close to commercialization, we should be looking at

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Speaker 1: how they're getting through the NRC's process. The NRC is

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Speaker 1: a US agency, Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: Is yes, But there is the Generic Design Assessment in

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Speaker 2: the UK, the Canadian Regulatory They all have very rigorous

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Speaker 2: processes to make sure that the nuclear technology that's being

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Speaker 2: developed is going to be safe opera R correctly, and

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Speaker 2: it's in our interest that we have a very rigorous

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Speaker 2: process for that. The Biden administration passed the Advanced Act,

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Speaker 2: which is going to suggest to the NRC to streamline

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Speaker 2: the process so instead of taking three to four years

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Speaker 2: to license, it should be done in twenty four miles.

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Speaker 2: And also, New Scale spent five hundred million dollars on

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Speaker 2: its own staff preparing a license application and paying the

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Speaker 2: fees that the NRC would charge for reviewing all of

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Speaker 2: these applications. That's a pretty formidable obstacle for many of

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Speaker 2: the upcoming startups in the nuclear power industry, and so

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Speaker 2: there is some provisions in the Advanced Act to sort

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Speaker 2: of lessen that financial burden.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like there's a lot of tailwinds to

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Speaker 1: brewing for particularly SMRs, Advanced Nuclear, all of these companies

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about. You know, for all the reasons

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Speaker 1: we discussed this on nuclears back in fashion, there's also

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Speaker 1: this new need of meeting data sent some demand and

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Speaker 1: very specifically the tech industry that can really make things

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Speaker 1: happen are showing so much interest. So with that sort

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Speaker 1: of very optimistic picture in mind, I suppose it's also

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Speaker 1: your job as an analyst to pour cold water all

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Speaker 1: over every time someone gets too excited about any new technology.

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Speaker 1: That's that's kind of what we do. So what are

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Speaker 1: the potential stumbling blocks for this upscaling?

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Speaker 2: When I look at the opportunities presented to the nuclear

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Speaker 2: power industry and all the vendors associated with it, I

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Speaker 2: look at where they sit in the licensing process. Have

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Speaker 2: they engaged with the NRC. There's twelve companies that are

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Speaker 2: out in pre application discussions with the NRC, so they're

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Speaker 2: having conversations as we're having conversations, say this is what

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Speaker 2: we're proposing to do. Does this make sense? Yes, back

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Speaker 2: and forth. So if you're not in the NRC engagement

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Speaker 2: process already, I don't consider you a serious company that's

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Speaker 2: going to come to the finish line sometime in the

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Speaker 2: next few years. The second thing that is very very

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Speaker 2: important is that you have the financial backing that it

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Speaker 2: takes to go ahead and cross the finish line. We've

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Speaker 2: seen the first company who was trying to build a

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Speaker 2: small microreactor. The first project was going to be in Canada.

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Speaker 2: They went bankrupt because they didn't sort of succeed in

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Speaker 2: raising the cash that was necessary to go forward. That's

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Speaker 2: very very important, and do they have a technology that

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Speaker 2: seems to be responsive to the needs of the utility

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Speaker 2: marketplace and also the hyperscale opportunity. There are big distinctions

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Speaker 2: between small module reactors, which are light water reactors, which

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Speaker 2: are just innovations of just shrinking the size to the reactor,

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Speaker 2: but the same type of technology, and the idea is

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Speaker 2: we can build them smaller for less money and quicker.

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Speaker 2: Then the advanced react to technologies, the terror Powers which

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Speaker 2: is developing a sodium cooled fast reactor, x Energy which

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Speaker 2: is developing a helium cooled high temperature gas reactor, and

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Speaker 2: Chiros which is developing a molten salt reactor hybrid type

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Speaker 2: of technology. All of these represents innovations in the nuclear space.

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Speaker 2: That's a departure from historical technology that has been deployed.

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Speaker 2: If you think about the oil and gas industry, the

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Speaker 2: renewable energy industry, we have seen a tremendous amount of

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Speaker 2: innovation in all of those industries come to the marketplace

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Speaker 2: and the result has been significantly reduced costs for the

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Speaker 2: production of gas, oil and renewable wind power and solar power.

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Speaker 2: Where has the innovation come in the nuclear space. We

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Speaker 2: are now seeing it come in the form of a

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Speaker 2: fast reactor, a high temperature gas reactor, and a molten

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Speaker 2: salt reactor. These are new technologies that afford the promise

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Speaker 2: of being a safer they promise to be more efficient,

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Speaker 2: they promise to have less spent fuel, which is a problem,

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Speaker 2: and they're very very exciting to see all of these

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Speaker 2: moving forward. And it's a decision that utilities and hyperscalers

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Speaker 2: need to sort of make a decision large reactors, small reactors,

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Speaker 2: advanced reactors, and there's different risk and challenges that each

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Speaker 2: of these face. And then if you even take it

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Speaker 2: a step further, you have microreactors if we talked Oakloh

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Speaker 2: And also we have fusion technology, which is something that

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Speaker 2: we cannot ignore because a fusion industry has raised seven

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Speaker 2: point one billion dollars for private sector investment among thirty

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Speaker 2: or so companies, and having been to many fusion facilities

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Speaker 2: in the US and Europe, I can say that there's

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Speaker 2: something that about that technology that presents some very interesting

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Speaker 2: possibilities for starters. The prototype that's being built in Devon's,

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Speaker 2: Massachusetts by Commonwealth Fusion, it's located within three hundred meters

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Speaker 2: of residential housing. You couldn't put a large reactor within

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Speaker 2: three hundred meters or a small fission reactor. And this

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Speaker 2: technology is safer, it will follow a different regulatory path,

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Speaker 2: and so the path way to commercialization once they prove

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Speaker 2: their technology, once they can commercialize their technology, will be

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Speaker 2: much simpler and easier and faster.

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Speaker 1: This kind of raises an interesting question to me. So

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Speaker 1: we've got these five different pathways, including conventional nuclear and

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Speaker 1: there is this kind of need to be met, and

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Speaker 1: we talked about you knows so challenging in different ways.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that there's five different ways to get there.

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Speaker 1: On the optimistic side, does that multiply the chances is

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Speaker 1: that something will be able to meet the moment by

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Speaker 1: five because there's five different, quite independent pathways to get there.

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Speaker 1: But on the flip side, does that mean that if

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Speaker 1: one of these technologies can get their first to meet

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Speaker 1: the moment, does it massively squash the chances of relevance

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Speaker 1: for the other four.

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Speaker 2: I certainly would not want to be a utility right

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Speaker 2: now trying to decide which horse to bet on in

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Speaker 2: those five technology options. There's not going to be a

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Speaker 2: winner take all situation. I think that the larger reactors

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Speaker 2: have certain applications in the in the US market and

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Speaker 2: North American market, and they're being looked at by a

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Speaker 2: variety of utilities and hyperscale developers. And however, the SMRs

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Speaker 2: seem to offer certain attractions, certain advantages, and certainly do

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Speaker 2: the advanced reactors. So it's a very very difficult situation.

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Speaker 2: I think that you will see, you know, niche markets

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Speaker 2: develop and there'll be opportunities for all of these technologies

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Speaker 2: going forward.

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Speaker 1: So kind of last question from me, you know, talking

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Speaker 1: about all these new technologies that could meet the moment,

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Speaker 1: including also building out of the conventional technologies. But then

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Speaker 1: the other thing, and you alluded to it earlier, is,

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Speaker 1: for example, the deal between Microsoft and Three Mile Island

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Speaker 1: to bring back existing nuclear plants that have been shut

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Speaker 1: down but can be reopened and you know, still have

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Speaker 1: potentially life in them with a little bit of investment.

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Speaker 1: Do you see that as a near term solution? And

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Speaker 1: you know how significant could that be? Is a three

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Speaker 1: Mile Island for example, is that a one off? Or

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Speaker 1: is this it's not going to become a thing.

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Speaker 2: We've closed eleven reactors in the US in the last

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Speaker 2: fifteen years since Fukushima, and of the eleven, I look

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Speaker 2: and suggests that perhaps we can bring back three of them.

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Speaker 2: The Palisades Nuclear Reactor is the first out of the

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Speaker 2: gate that's trying to be developed by Holtech, the owner.

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Speaker 2: That could be in NRC approval in the third quarter

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five and starting to operate in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six. Three Mile Island may be the second one

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Speaker 2: a year or two later, and there's another reactor out west.

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Speaker 2: There's also a possibility that has been recently closed. But

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Speaker 2: of the eleven reactors we see, three of them are

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Speaker 2: possible candidates. However, what is going to happen at Pallisades.

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Speaker 2: The plan is for the existing reactor and we come

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Speaker 2: back online, and then Haltech, which is developing a three

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Speaker 2: hundred megawatt lightwater reactor, they will build two of those

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Speaker 2: reactors on that site. It makes it a much easier

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Speaker 2: commercialization pathway if you can build a new reactor at

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Speaker 2: an existing site. Some of these other sites that have

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Speaker 2: been closed may be opportunities for SMRs to be on

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00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: the same site. Hall Take owns Oyster Creek facility in

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Speaker 2: New Jersey that is a logical candidate for an SMR.

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00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: There's discussions about bringing back nuclear to Indian Point, twenty

443
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: five miles north of New York City. They have an

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00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: interesting opportunity there. However, in all of these situations, you

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00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: have nimbiism going on, local opposition and people are starting

446
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: to complain, well, we don't really want to bring these

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00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 2: reactors back. And that's a very very important thing that

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00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: has to be looked at. Is that's one thing to

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00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: talk about bringing a reactor back. As soon as you

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00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,040
Speaker 2: start the process that people come out of the woodwork

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00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 2: and suggest, well, maybe we don't really want to do that,

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00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 2: and that's something that has to be carefully managed and

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Speaker 2: a lot of communications and cultivation of the local surroundings

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Speaker 2: to go ahead and let them move forward with the

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Speaker 2: project with local buy.

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Speaker 1: It sounds to me like even with these challenges, there

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00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 1: has been a period of not much happening in the

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00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: nuclear industry, particularly in the US, and then suddenly lots

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00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: is happening all at once, even if the plants haven't

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Speaker 1: yet arrived. It reminds me of there's a British poet

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00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: called Wendy Cope who has a poem called Bloody Men,

462
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: and I can't remember the entire poem, but the first

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00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: line is bloody men are like bloody busses, and the

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00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: point is is that you wait for one to come

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Speaker 1: along and then to arrive at once. I sort of

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Speaker 1: feel talking to you, like, this is what you're experiencing.

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00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: We've waited for some activity on the nuclear front for

468
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: a good amount of time, and we've had a bit

469
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: of promise, and then now suddenly there's a lot happening

470
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 1: all at the same time. We've got these five different pathways,

471
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: and as you said, it's a nuclear so if you're

472
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: a utility, you don't even know which one to back,

473
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: which is the right bus to get onto. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that's a fair characterization of the situation now.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of innovation, there's a lot

476
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: of enthusiasm. There's a huge need for baseload, non intermittent

477
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: and carbon free electricity, and so the stage is set.

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Speaker 2: What we really need to see is regulatory approval, licensing,

479
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: and construction to start. Once the first reactor is under construction, working,

480
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 2: starting to work and move forward, then I think we'll

481
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 2: see a lot of utilities and hyperskilles. I want the

482
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: same thing, and we'll follow. So it's just a matter

483
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: of breaking the ice, getting the first reactor licensed and operating.

484
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Speaker 2: And it's the first time in the US since two

485
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 2: thousand and seven that we haven't had a nuclear power

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Speaker 2: plant under construction, and that's pretty sad.

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Speaker 1: Chris, this has been really fascinating. As always, Thank you

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Speaker 1: very much for stimulating conversation.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Tom.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by cam Grad

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00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,000
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