1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from house 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Dowdy and I'm and There's been a lot 4 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: of cool news lately, big news stories. This one was 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: kind of huge. This one was really huge. It's an exhimation, 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: which is the ultimate subject of this podcast. Holly, you 7 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: just don't get hands on history like that. This is 8 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: this is a big deal for you too. This is 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: your induction and this is your first exhimation for the 10 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: podcast as far as I know, unless we unless we 11 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: missed some some in the earlier episodes we did. This 12 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: is a big one though. In February, so just earlier 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: this month, there was an announcement that a skeleton was 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: unearthed from a parking lot in England and that that 15 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: skeleton belonged to King Richard the third. So excavations had 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: started a few months earlier, back in September, and they 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: found him almost immediately, and uh, they weren't sure at first. 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Uh took a while to do some testing, but there 19 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: were a few signs that made it pretty likely that 20 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: this was Richard. One was the skeleton had a slight build. Uh, 21 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: it looks to be somebody who had died in his 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: late twenties or early thirties, somebody who had had a 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: high protein diet, like a wealthy nobleman, the people that 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: could afford that the meat. And then this is these 25 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: are the two big ones. Scoliosis and brutal battle injuries, 26 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 1: a massive skull fracture, nine other wounds, some believed to 27 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: have been inflicted after death, um a very beaten up skeleton, 28 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: all of which kind of led people to think they 29 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: might really be onto the real Richard UH. And radio 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,399 Speaker 1: carbon dating on two of the ribs showed the man 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: would have dined between four and fifty and Richard died 32 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: in five, so that was also corroborating. And then comparisons 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 1: between the remains and two distant relatives of Richards their 34 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: descendants of a sister were a match for mitochondrial DNA, 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: which follows the maternal line, so that was sort of like, 36 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: we got it for real. Yeah, so they're still doing 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: some additional research to confirm a match on the mail side, 38 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: but they went ahead and made the announcement that this 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: was Richard quote beyond reasonable doubt, and thus began the 40 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: flood of emails. UH Facebook messages, tweets, everybody telling us 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: Richard the Third has been identified time for a podcast 42 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: and what you don't a bigger historical news this Really 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: I didn't want to. I didn't want this one to 44 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: just be lurking around until the end of year, round 45 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: up for something. This is huge news in history and 46 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: really is a good opportunity to to talk about Richard 47 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: the third son because people have been requesting an episode 48 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 1: on him for ages anyway, and it's such big news 49 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: for a few reasons. Richard was the last Pontagenet king, 50 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: so that's a big deal. So very long family, their 51 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: long line of rulers. He was the last English king 52 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: to die in battle, so this very dramatic death, these 53 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: very visible battle uh wounds on his on his skeleton. 54 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: But I think most importantly, I think this is why 55 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: it's such a big deal, is because he is famous 56 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: as Shakespeare's hunchbacked villain. That's how people think of Richard 57 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: the Third. Yeah, I mean, Richard the Third is one 58 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: of those roles that every actor wants to play at 59 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: some point in his life. It's like a touchstone of 60 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, success as an actor. To play Richard the 61 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: Third well and so tortured, cruel, misshapen like there, and 62 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: there are so many different interpretations of him that have 63 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: happened historically in different productions of that play. It's everybody 64 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: has sort of a weird familiarity with him because they've 65 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: seen one version or another, and if they, you know, 66 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: have been in the theater at all, they've certainly either 67 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: been involved or known people that were. And there's a 68 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: weird reverence for the whole story. That's I think we 69 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: kind of get attached to it in a unique way 70 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't happen with other stories of kings. I can 71 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: think of my Shakespeare professor in college, very first day 72 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: of class. This was the first play that we read 73 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: coming into class with one higher than the other rattling 74 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: off some some lines. It's a it's a very memorable character, 75 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: and I think, um, that character has really competed since 76 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: Richard's death with the real man. Who what are we 77 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: supposed to believe? And there's so many mysteries tied up 78 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: in it too, namely the mystery of the princes in 79 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: the Tower, which just to just so you don't get 80 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: your hopes up too much, we're not going into all 81 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 1: the conspiracies on that one could easily be another show. 82 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: It's outside the scope of just a Richard. But one 83 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: of the things that is so neat when you start 84 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: reading about Richard the Third is that his history, the 85 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: history of his history, is just as fascinating really as 86 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: his life. How much it's changed. How the tutor pr 87 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: machine comes in and just decimates this guy, and then 88 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: he goes through this sort of strange resurgence of Richard. 89 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: Wasn't he was actually a pretty good king? Um? And 90 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: catching up to present day where I think historians try 91 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: to look at it from a balanced perspective. Why did 92 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: he do what he did? What is just made up 93 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: and clearly meant to to defame him? Um? And then 94 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: what did he do that's actually pretty sketchy? Yeah, And 95 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: I think what a lot of what drives that for 96 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: most modern historians as they kind of look at what 97 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: really makes the most sense of the stories or it's 98 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: like what there are a lot of outlandish claims and 99 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: writings about him, and it's you kind of have to 100 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: sift through that, but this is really the most likely scenario, 101 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: And and how does he compare to other kings of 102 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: his day? And you know, how how much in line 103 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: were his actions with those of others. And also considering 104 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: he was a king who reigned for a remarkably short 105 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: amount of time, the usurper who reigned for a short 106 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: amount of time, how would his history have differed had 107 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: he held the throne for thirty years Probably would have 108 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: been remarkably different. But we're going to start with the beginning. 109 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: He was born October two ft two, and he had 110 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: really great family circumstances, I mean, born to one of 111 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: the top families in the land at the time. His 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: father was Richard, the third, Duke of York, who was 113 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful nobleman. He was descended from 114 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: England's King Edward the Third, who has popped up in 115 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: this podcast before. But the main thing to remember for 116 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: this episode's purposes is that Edward the Third was a 117 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: guy with a lot of kids. Yeah, he was a producer. 118 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: He was going to come into play in just a 119 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: few minutes. When minutes when we do our really short 120 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: recap of of how the War of the Roses started. Uh, 121 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: And his mother was Cecily Neville, who was also really 122 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: well connected and also descended from Edward the third. Um 123 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: but Richard was the fourth son in the family. So 124 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: at that point it's kind of you may have all 125 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 1: of the benefits of being a wealthy family, but the 126 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: odds of you ever having Yeah, he was. He was 127 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: low down on the line there. Um. But circumstances started 128 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: to change. When Richard was still a really young child. 129 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: His father made a grab for the throne um, effectively 130 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: kicking off the War of the Roses. And that was 131 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: of course between the House of Lancaster, which was represented 132 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: by the reigning king at the time, Henry the sixth, 133 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: and the House of York, which was represented by Richard's father. 134 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: And um. This again, it's not a War of the 135 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: Roses podcast, and you have to do so many shows 136 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 1: on this, but it is important to understand the background 137 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: and where these claims came from and how these cousins 138 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: started fighting each other in the first place. Uh, And 139 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: the most basic part of the story is Uh. Edward third, 140 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: he lived from thirteen twelve to thirte really had too 141 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: many children, eight of which were sons. That was this 142 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: is the problem. This is where all the troubles starts. 143 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: Too many sons. When a king has eight sons, there's 144 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: going to be some infighting over who really deserves. Gonna 145 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: be some cousins fighting it out. Um. So it may 146 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: not have gone that way if his eldest son's line 147 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: had been a little stronger than it was. But that 148 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: died out when his grandson, who was King Richard the second, 149 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: was starved to death and usurped by his cousin, who 150 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: was a descendant from the third son. Okay, so I 151 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: feel like we need a big flow chart. Oh, I know, 152 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: I wish I could just project a family tree for 153 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: you guys right now. But first son's line dies out, 154 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: third son's line comes into power, and these are the 155 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: Lancastrian kings. And if you are up on your Shakespeare, 156 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: these are guys you know, because this is Henry the fourth, fifth, 157 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: and sixth, and they ruled for about half a century, 158 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: even though they did not have the best claim to 159 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: the throne because they were descended from that third son. 160 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: The best claim or the better claim would go to 161 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: the Yorks, who were descended from Edward the third second son. Right, 162 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: So son number two should have been the that line 163 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: should have been the family that takes Anna to the 164 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: first son died, but because son number three had a 165 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:35,439 Speaker 1: more aggressive resertive group, they were just older, but they 166 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: maybe didn't really in terms of bloodline and the standard 167 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: hierarchy of how monarchies passed from one to the next, 168 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: they really didn't have a stronger grip on that whole thing. 169 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: That didn't become a huge issue though, until the reign 170 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: of Henry the sixth, because I mean, Henry the fifth 171 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: obviously a very strong king. People aren't gonna quibble too 172 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: much if the king in powers doing a pretty good 173 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: job up. Henry the sixth, though, became king when he 174 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: was just an infant, and he was he did not 175 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: grow up well suited to being king um. And he 176 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: also would from time to time slip in and out 177 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: of a mentally incompetent state. He would become confused. So 178 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: probably not the best person to lead a country. No, 179 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: and somebody who if you had a better claim to 180 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: the throw and you might start thinking, well, here's the 181 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: guy to overthrew. And that's exactly what happened. Richard, Duke 182 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: of York, who was descended from that second son of 183 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: Edward the Third's on his mom's side, And just to 184 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: boot and to confuse you guys some more, he is 185 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: descended from the fourth then to on his dad's side, 186 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: But because that doesn't matter as much, he decided at 187 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: this point he was going to make a push for 188 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: the throne. And these um battles between these distant cousins 189 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: kicked off when our subject Richard is just a little boy. Uh. 190 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: And so he Richard really had what you could consider 191 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 1: the classic royal sad childhood. And he wasn't even royal 192 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: at that point. His father was killed in battle in 193 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: fourteen sixty and in the gruesome portion his head was 194 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: paraded on a pike with a paper crown. Yeah, which 195 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: is not a good thing for a young child to 196 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: know of, No, certainly not. And and he lost a 197 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: brother too, is his older brother Edmund died in battle 198 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: as a teen. And for a while it seemed like Richard, 199 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: even as a as a little boy, was in pretty 200 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: grave danger because he and his next oldest brother, George, 201 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: who was also a child at the time, were sent 202 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: abroad for safety for a time, which is not uncommon 203 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: at the time. Get your kids out of the country 204 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 1: and then they grow up, and then they'd come back 205 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: and fight each other. Yeah. But eventually the Yorkist car 206 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: was prevailed, led by Richard's eldest brother Edward. Uh And 207 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 1: Richard saw his nineteen year old brother crowned king in 208 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: one uh. So Richard was made the Duke of Gloucester 209 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: and was raised for a time in the household of 210 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: his brother's greatest supporter. Um Richard Nibble, Earl of Warwick, 211 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: the Kingmaker, Kingmaker, he comes into play again. Um. So 212 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 1: this is the point where we can start examining things. Yeah, motives, hindsight, um. 213 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: And for the most extreme monster Richard histories, this is 214 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: the point it's just a teenager where he starts thinking, 215 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: how can I get my hands on that throne? Um. 216 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: One thing, though, despite all the uncertainties about Richard's life, 217 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: one thing that is very clear is that he was 218 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: incredibly loyal to his brother Edward while Edward was alive. 219 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: And it's easy to see why. I mean, Edward is 220 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: clearly much older than him. He's clearly looks up to 221 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:08,160 Speaker 1: him in battle. Um. It seems clear why Richard would 222 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: would stay so close to his brother, well, especially when 223 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: so many other family members have passed. In all of 224 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: this fighting, the ties that remain get stronger, and you know, 225 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: you become sort of more dug into what that means 226 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: to you. In terms of family and just staying live 227 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: to um, keeping close to somebody who has managed to 228 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: claim the power and gone to the top spot. Richard's motto, incidentally, 229 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: is is actually loyalty binds me, And that's certainly referring 230 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: to that Edward relationship. So I think we can put 231 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: aside the he's beginning to plot at sixteen unlikely because 232 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: he he wouldn't really have had any reason to to 233 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: think things would go down the way they did. Yeah, 234 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's entirely possible at that point that he 235 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: may have realized that there's that after or his brother 236 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: he would be the next. He still had another brother 237 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: in front of him too, He's still down the line. Yeah, 238 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: there's he may be keenly aware of his place in 239 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: the hierarchy. But again, he's so young and so loyal. 240 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: It seems odd to think that he was already, you know, 241 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: twisting his hands and scheming over it exactly. The loyalty, though, 242 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: really was tested pretty pretty early on still, when he 243 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: was a teenager, when Warwick turned against Edward and attempted 244 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: to reinstate Henry the six the deposed king, and the 245 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: rebellion was successful and for a little bit, Edward was 246 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: forced to flee the country. Richard came with him and 247 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: eventually they made a dramatic return, fighting together. Richard was 248 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: at one point injured in battle and really put an 249 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: end to this Lancastrian cause. The heir to the throne, 250 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: who was a seventeen year old son of Henry the Six, 251 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: was killed in battle or as some rumors have it, 252 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: murdered as a captive, and then not long after that, 253 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: Henry the Six himself was murdered. It's likely he wasn't 254 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: murdered before then because his son presented a much more 255 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: appealing prospect as a future king than this ineffectual king 256 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: who went through periods of mental confusion. But both of 257 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: the lancaster guys out of the picture at this point, 258 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: and Edward is really decisively in power by now. Um. 259 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: So rumor number one of many of many, uh, and 260 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: this one is really easy to to set straight. Those 261 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: two deaths we just talked about the Lancastrian seventeen year 262 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: old air and then Henry the Six himself. Um. Some 263 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: stories suggest Richard murdered them both. Um It's possible that 264 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: he did supervise the murder of Henry the Six but 265 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: it was on Edwards orders, his brother Edwards orders. Um, 266 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: it was clearly Edward the fourth who ordered the death, 267 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: and it was clearly him, you know, as the new king, 268 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: who who needed to have his his potential rival, this 269 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 1: other figurehead pure. But Richard was only eighteen, still only eighteen, 270 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 1: and which I know it's a different time and eighteen 271 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: was older than eighteen is now, but it still seems 272 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: just so striking to think about how young he was 273 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: and how much he had been through already. It does. 274 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: And I think that comes down a little bit to 275 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: the popular depictions of him too. I hadn't put two 276 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: and two together and realized he was thirty two when 277 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: he's killed. Really, if you think of him as a 278 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: elderly well, and I think a lot of characterizations of 279 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: him have been as a more adult man, whether accidentally 280 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: like they just hadn't taken into account the age, or 281 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: if that's just sort of the natural all progression of 282 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: like an actor's characterization that if he has that much 283 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: power and he's hunchback, he kind of develops this you know, 284 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: maturity that maybe wasn't there. And so, yeah, just only 285 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: eighteen years old, his brother is king, solid position finally, 286 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: and this is when Richard really kicks off an adult life. 287 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: I mean, his life up to this point has been 288 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: one of extreme uncertainty, from really about three years old on. Um. 289 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: But at this point he solidifies his position as a nobleman, 290 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: just as his brother is solidified his position as king. 291 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: He married the widow of the dead Lancastrian prince and Neville. 292 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: He inherited huge parts of northern England, some of Wales, 293 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: and he was eventually also appointed his brother's lieutenant in 294 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: the North. And from accounts I've read, he really did 295 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: focus on setting up a dynasty in the North. Um. 296 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: Not in any sort of competitive way, but just I 297 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: will be a wealthy landowner who's taking care of what 298 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: was then his yes, exactly, and this sort of respectability 299 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: that he seems to be projecting at this point, uh 300 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: differ so dramatically from the other York brother who's still 301 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: living at this point, George, Duke of Clarence, the black 302 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: sheep of the family. George was keenly aware that he 303 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: was next in line. He was he Uh. Having that 304 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: brother in between was probably a good thing for Richard. 305 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, because George was plotting against Edward the fourth 306 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: dabbled in many plots against him, and eventually it turned 307 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: around and bit him on the behind because he was 308 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: executed on orders in UH. And then there's another Richard. 309 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 1: There is a that's that Richard was the one who 310 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:08,639 Speaker 1: drove Edward to have their brother executed UM, according to 311 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Richards in History Today, though there's some evidence that 312 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: Richard actually tried to dissuade Edward from this plan to 313 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: execute their brother. UM. But it's worth noting too that 314 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: Richard was clearly the big time benefactor from George's death UM. 315 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: And then we're not just talking about oh, it's another 316 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: step closer to the throne. By this point he inhered 317 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: George's stuff and and actually UM, George's wife and Richard's 318 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: wife were sisters, so he gets some extra novel inheritance 319 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: to UM. But it's pretty likely that Richard really would 320 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: have just continued on, I mean, we can't say for sure, 321 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: but would have continued on as this powerful nor then 322 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: lord who was married, starting a family UM, acting as 323 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: his brother's lieutenant in the North. He even got a 324 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: permission essentially during the Scottish Wars, to anything he could 325 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: get of Scotland was his, so he might have focused 326 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: on consolidating his power in that part of the country. 327 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: Had Edward not died on April nine three, very suddenly, 328 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: aged only forty, it threw everyone for a loop. They 329 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: were not prepared for this death. And that meant that Edward, 330 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: the fourth twelve year old son Edward was now the king. 331 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: And we know from I mean, history teaches us again 332 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: and again when children become monarch that usually doesn't go fabulously. 333 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: And I mean, this is so close to just a 334 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: matter of a few years, and you have to think that, um, 335 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: English history might have been pretty dramatically different here. Um, 336 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,400 Speaker 1: since well we're just talking about how Richard was eighteen, 337 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: not a huge difference, you know, But Um, Richard was 338 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: deemed Lord Protector UH. And initially it seemed he was 339 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: in York at the time he swore allegiance to his nephew. 340 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: It seemed like he was game for this, that he 341 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: would be loyal protector YEA, loyal to his his brother's son, 342 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: just as he had them loyal to his brother. UH 343 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: started hurrying south to London. But there was some trouble brewing, 344 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: and it started with the King's council, and the council 345 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: was dominated by the young king Edward, the five maternal relatives, 346 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: the wood Fills. Uh, and just a little background on them. 347 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: Edward the Fourth had you know, we talked about how 348 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: he really managed to consolidate his power, but most historians 349 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: consider his biggest mistake was his marriage choice. Married a commoner, 350 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 1: very beautiful commoner, a widow, Elizabeth Woodville, and they had 351 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: a lot of kids themselves. They apparently liked each other 352 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: a lot, but she was not popular with people. And uh, 353 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: she came with thirteen siblings. Yes, so there were a 354 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: lot of in laws at Edward the Fourth court. Um. 355 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: Her brothers took up important positions. Her sisters were married 356 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: off to a lot of the top nobles, some of 357 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: whom really did not like being forced into these marriages 358 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: with these commoners. Um. And she also came with two 359 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: older sons to who grew up to be Edward the 360 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: Fourth close companions. Um. So all these Woodvilles the herd 361 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: of Woodville's and they rejected the plan for Richard to 362 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: become Lord Protector, clearly hoping that um, if little Edward, 363 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 1: twelve year old Edward could just officially be king, they 364 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: could run the show, they could be the ones in 365 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: control of him, right, So they didn't want someone with 366 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: power and knowledge of how things are run in any 367 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: way impeding their ability to kind of uh, you know, 368 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: whisper in the ear of a very young and probably 369 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: impressionable monarch. But Richard wanted to overcome the one bills 370 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: as um, you know you would in that situation. That 371 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: seems like a pretty natural response. He wanted to stay 372 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: his nephew's lord protector, allegedly not usurping the throne. Seemed 373 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:49,280 Speaker 1: that way at first, um, although he did make sure 374 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: he got control of his nephew, right, And that's one 375 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: of those things that can kind of be colored by history, 376 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: Like it could just be that he wanted to make 377 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: sure the boy was in his presence and protected, or 378 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: that the boy was in his presence and protected exactly, uh, 379 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,199 Speaker 1: in the more dominating kind of way perhaps, uh. And 380 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 1: then he also arrested his Woodville side, the uncle and 381 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: half brother, who were the people really kind of making 382 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: these plots to get rid of Richard as the protector. 383 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: So Elizabeth Woodville's reaction to this, to her son being 384 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 1: scooped up by Richard removed from his his half brother 385 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: and uncle's protection and put into Richard's protection. UM. She 386 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: got very concerned and went into sanctuary at Westminster Abbey, 387 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: took her younger son and her daughter's and hit out 388 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what was going on. UM. But 389 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: it did still seem like Richard was planning on fulfilling 390 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: his responsibility as Lord Protector, that he was making actively 391 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: making plans for for Edward the Fifth Coronation. UM didn't 392 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,919 Speaker 1: seem to be making a bid yet to claim the 393 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: throne himself until June, when something clicked, something changed, and 394 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: Richard started feeling out the Royal Council and and feeling 395 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: out who on the council was just completely opposed to 396 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: the idea of of Edward the Fifth being passed over. 397 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: Who couldn't get past that idea. Those who could not 398 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: get past that idea were removed, and on June six, 399 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: some of them, some of them get parts removed. UM. 400 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 1: June six too, he made a very ominous move. He 401 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: surrounded Westminster Abbey, where his his sister in law was 402 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: was hiding out with her children, and convinced Elizabeth to 403 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: let her younger son Richard UM also Richard out of 404 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: Westminster Abbey to attend his brother's coronation. She she should 405 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: be there, she agreed. This is where you get into 406 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: all sorts of conspiracy theories that could be a whole 407 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: other episode. Did she really send her her son? But 408 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna go with the assumptions she did right now. 409 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: And then on June he started executing Woodvills, the maternal 410 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: uncle one of them, um, the older half brother one 411 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: of them. So it's clear that this is not friendly 412 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: lord protector behavior anymore. She's on a bit of a 413 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: killing spree. And there again, it's one of those things 414 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: where we we can't ever know what conversations were happening 415 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: or what sort of motivations were driving him to this behavior. 416 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: So for all we know was completely of honorable intent. 417 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: But it hasn't really been covered that way historically. No, 418 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: it hasn't, because he does Ultimately he's offered the crown, 419 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: and he doesn't really hesitate. It seems like um, well, 420 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: and I think actually the speed of which all the 421 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: speed of um, how everything goes down, it's all in June. Essentially, 422 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: he's crowned July um when his brother died in April. 423 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 1: But all of this action really takes place in June. 424 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: And I think the speed of that is what has 425 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: made so many people think he must have been planning 426 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: this for a long time, because it just seems so perfect. 427 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: Everything seemed to go off without a hitch um, smooth 428 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: and quiet, and for the most part, I mean, compared 429 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: to suddenly people just weren't there anymore. Yeah. And and 430 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: the biggest example of that, and really the curse for 431 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,719 Speaker 1: Richard during the rest of his reign and certainly for 432 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: his legacy, is the fate of the two little boys. 433 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: So twelve year old King Edward the five and ten 434 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: year old Richard who's taken out to that coronation that 435 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: never happens. Um. Richard did some behind the scenes legal 436 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: work on their fate, had them declared illegitimate. The story 437 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 1: was Edward the fourth and had actually been pre contracted 438 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: when he married Elizabeth, which is as good as married, 439 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: and the kids were therefore all illegitimate. But the kids 440 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: were that she would be determined to be a mistress, 441 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: and she would be a mistress, and all of these 442 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: princes and princesses would be illegitimate. Um. Some people have said, well, 443 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: at that point, he wouldn't have had to murder them 444 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: because they were declared illegitimate, so they wouldn't have been 445 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: a threat. Clearly they were going to be a threat 446 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: no matter what. They had the gumption to move on, 447 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: their their ideas and their playing ends. They weren't really 448 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: like a okay, we're just a legitimate going to accept 449 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: that kind of family well, and issues like legitimacy could 450 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: be overturned easily, as as this one actually was during 451 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: the reign of Henry the seventh. But um, the little 452 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: boys we're being kept in the Tower of London, and 453 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: around this time, around the time Richard became king, they 454 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: were moved deeper into the tower. And there's a great 455 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: contemporary account from Dominic Mancini, who was an Italian visitor 456 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: was in London at the time. He had a very 457 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: impartial view of what was going on. Um, so his 458 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: his musings on things are interesting. But he wrote that 459 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: the boys started to be seen pretty rarely around the tower. 460 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: They used to be let out to play. Then folks 461 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: didn't see him very much anymore, and then quote at length, 462 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: they ceased to appear altogether. It sounds so ominous, it does, 463 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: and and it is sad, and there isn't to this day, 464 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: um clear evidence about what happened to them, but it's 465 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: pretty obvious that everyone generally accepted that they had been murdered, 466 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: because by the fall of that same year, by the 467 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: fall of four three, their mother, Elizabeth Woodville, made a 468 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 1: secret arrangement with another noblewoman, Margaret Beaufort, to Mary her 469 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York, to Margaret's son, Henry Tudor, 470 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: who was at this point really stepping up to be 471 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: the next pretender, um, the the next guy who wanted 472 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: the throne. Clearly, Elizabeth Woodville would not have made an 473 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: arrangement like that, would not have sanctioned the claim of 474 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: Henry Tudor if she thought that she had to York 475 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: son still living. Yeah, that's the desperate move of a 476 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: mother who's just trying to cling to whatever options she 477 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: has left. UM. But then she publicly accepted Richard and 478 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: that's another yeah. Uh, And she and her daughters were 479 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: allowed to come out of sanctuary. But I mean that 480 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: whole series of events transpiring really kind of suggested that 481 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: she either knew or suspected Slash believed that the princes 482 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: were gone. I think certainly, and then we can look 483 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: to Richard himself too. He would strenuously deny a lot 484 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: of rumors during his reign, one of which was that 485 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: he wanted to marry Elizabeth of York, his niece for 486 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: himself after after his wife died um. But he never 487 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: discussed the rumors about the little boys in the tower 488 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: and what had happened to them, so I standed described 489 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: as deathly silence on the topic. Eventually, there was a 490 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: confession by Sir James Terrell in fifteen o two, but 491 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: a lot of it is pretty unreliable. The one part 492 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 1: that is worth mentioning for this story though, and again 493 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: so much work could be said on the principle of 494 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: the tower. But he mentioned bodies being buried at the 495 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: foot of a staircase in the tower, And in sixteen 496 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 1: seventy four there were some renovations going on in the 497 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: tower and two children's skeletons were found at the base 498 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: of a staircase during that renovation. And then in nineteen 499 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: thirty three some forensic work was done to confirm that 500 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 1: they were the skeletons of boys who were about ten 501 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: or twelve years old. You have to think now, with 502 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: the news of Richard's skeleton. If these had been found 503 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: later in a way where the DNA work could have 504 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: been done, Uh, this would probably be a different sort 505 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: of story. Yeah, details would be confirmed or denied much 506 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 1: more clearly by the science of it. Um. And then 507 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, people start to think, why but Richard, this 508 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: man who had been so loyal to previous monarchs, want 509 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 1: to take the crown, Like, what was it that drove him? 510 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,760 Speaker 1: Is he just ambitious? Was he afraid of the wood 511 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: Bills having power? And we should we should talk about 512 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: that for a minute, because that is a pretty legitimate fear. Um. 513 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: Even even if he had insisted on being Lord protector, 514 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: even if he had been Lord Protector through these few 515 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: years of minority that Edward the five would have had. 516 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: I mean, he was twelve years old. He's almost there, 517 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: almost grown up, and hang on for a few I 518 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: just got to keep you safe for a little even Um, 519 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: even if he had performed that function through his nephew's reign, 520 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: he would be in a pretty risky position um afterwards, 521 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: in relation to the Woodbills, with somebody who did have 522 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: a lot of power, who did have a claim to 523 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: the throne himself, um, and who was influential in a way, 524 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: they might not have wanted him to be with his nephew, 525 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: So ambition, yes, certainly, fear of the wood bills seems 526 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: quite possible. And then this one, I think is the 527 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 1: least likely some sort of righteousness if you really believe 528 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: that the kids were illegitimate, And it seems like there 529 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: was so much paperwork shuffling to make that claim that 530 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: it seems orchestrated enough that the righteousness theories don't really 531 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 1: hold the same level of water as the other two. 532 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: I agree. Um, So, whatever his motives were, he did 533 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: manage to take the crown, but he lost it so quickly, 534 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: and the entire time he held it he was dis 535 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: plagued by scandal um. And we mentioned this already in 536 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: the beginning. You have to wonder a little bit, what 537 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: what would people think of this guy if he had 538 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: managed to put down Henry the seventh later the eventual 539 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Henry the seventh Henry tutor um and reigned for thirty 540 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: years and start, you know, continue his dynasty. Would he 541 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: be seen in a completely different light and would he 542 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: be judged for for the works he had done while 543 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 1: he was king, or would people still be like the 544 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,320 Speaker 1: thing with the princess and yeah, something something went down there. Um, 545 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,439 Speaker 1: we we have to look at it, though not just 546 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: focusing intently on the princes in the Tower story though, 547 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: because that's what we think of most today. Certainly was 548 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: an issue at the time, but Richard was unpopular for 549 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: a lot of reasons. He didn't it was and and 550 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: it's really some of the other reasons that drove people 551 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: to different coalitions of people who didn't have much in 552 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: common to to decide that they could all agree to 553 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: hate Richie. They love to hate him. Yeah, he replaced 554 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the leaders and men in power with 555 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: his cronies from the North that he had, you know, 556 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: cultivated relationships with. And he alienated the Woodvilles. Um. It's 557 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: possible that he felt they were responsible for his brother 558 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: George's execution. Um. And he completely alienated the Edward the 559 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: Fourth loyalists. Obviously he really It's almost like he had 560 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: a checklist like, how can I make as many people 561 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: angry as possible in the shortest amount of time and 562 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: probably not thinking that they would all get along. Um. 563 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: The situation got a lot worse for him to win. 564 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: His only son, his heir died in fourteen four, and 565 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: then his wife died the next year of five. Another 566 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: Richard myth busting rumor time. Um, he didn't poison his wife. 567 00:37:53,320 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 1: She died probably with consumption. Um, so bad bad times. Yeah, 568 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: thinking is not all. And rebellion really did start almost immediately, 569 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: you know, from all these different people who feel alienated 570 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: or um, frustrated by what he's done, or had just 571 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 1: kind of distrust him because of around him. Certainly, Um, Richard, 572 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: pretty powerful guy still with a lot of Northern support 573 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: and respect, managed to suppress rebellions initially. Unfortunately for him, though, 574 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: a lot of the leaders managed to escape and they 575 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,800 Speaker 1: reorganized under Henry Tutor, who we were talking about earlier, 576 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: engaged to young Elizabeth of York, making them a pretty 577 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: glamorous couple, uniting this true York claim with Elizabeth to 578 00:38:55,560 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: this guy Tutor, who's honestly pretty pretty weak aiman, um, 579 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: but a really strong leader. A really just like a 580 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: perfect recipe against a leader who is already living in 581 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: a shadow of his own horrible reputation. Yeah, clearly, clearly so. 582 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: Henry Tudor came in. He had French and Scottish mercenaries, um, 583 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: and he came to arms with Richard ultimately August the 584 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: Battle of Bosworth Field. UM. Richard, as we know from 585 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: the marks on his skeleton, was yes, and I think 586 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: the battle had turned against him, and he was deciding 587 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: that he was going to have to go hand to 588 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: hand with UM, well, not hand to hand, but man 589 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: to man with Tudor. Didn't make it. UM, And with 590 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: Henry Tudor victorious, he became Henry the Seventh, and I 591 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: mean kicked off probably one of the best known periods 592 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: in the Tutors series now on TV. Something so interesting 593 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: about this story to me, though, and especially the Tutors, 594 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: which I'm as interested in them as anybody else's UM, 595 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: is how unstable their power was, and how that instability 596 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,319 Speaker 1: lasted four generations of charge. It was like a very 597 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:29,520 Speaker 1: tumultuous but steady period in English history. Yeah, UM, just 598 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: to give you some numbers on that. A lot of 599 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 1: it comes because of Henry Tutors really weak claim. It's 600 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: it's through an illegitimate line of a family and UM. 601 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: When he became King Henry the Seventh, there were eighteen 602 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: living people who had a better claim to than he 603 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: did to the throne. One of them was his mother. 604 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: One of them was his wife. I guess you can 605 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: count them on your side, but still a lot of 606 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: people to leave sixteen others that would like to make 607 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: their presence known. And so the Tutors hunted most of 608 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: those York possible claimants down over the next thirty years, 609 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: neutralized them, had them executed. Some of them genuinely we're 610 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: trying to rebel. Others were executed on trumped up charges. 611 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: Um Probably the most dramatic example is um George, the 612 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: Duke of Clarence's daughter. She was executed. I think she's 613 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: about sixty seven years old. During the reign of Henry 614 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: the Um and even as late as the reign of 615 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,479 Speaker 1: Elizabeth the First there were still pantagenets in the Tower 616 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: of London. Pretty I mean, do you think things are 617 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: over with this dramatic battle, But they're not. Ever are 618 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: They're not? They dragged on and on. There's always someone 619 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: who wants to make their bid for power. That's a 620 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: rough way to live, it is. I always sort think 621 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: that when we cover these royal topics, like what would 622 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: it just be like to live in a family where 623 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: you know that constantly you have to be on the 624 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 1: lookout for people that make even if you want none 625 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: of the trappings of it and you want none of 626 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 1: the power, people could think that you might want power, 627 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: you might have a valid reason to look at it. 628 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: I came into a couple of examples of York family 629 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: members who did manage to lead a retired life, and 630 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: I was just thinking, how how much of a suck 631 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: up you would have to be for your whole life 632 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: to the to the reigning monarch. But how quiet I mean, 633 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: you just could not make one false step um. And 634 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: then to to think of the opposite end to the 635 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: people who are actually engaged in the fighting here all 636 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: these seventeen year olds, eighteen year olds who their whole 637 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: life has been nothing secure your claim someday um, And 638 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: then any other works where it doesn't. But for Richard, 639 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess he got there, but it didn't 640 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 1: last long. He was buried quickly, anonymously, no clothes, no jewelry, 641 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: no winding sheet, um, at a place called Greyfriars Priory 642 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: and during Henry the eighths rain. This kind of gets 643 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: back to the recent news story how he ended up 644 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: in a parker How did he end up under a 645 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: parking lot? Um? Thanks. Henry the Eighth kind of has 646 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: to do with him. During Henry the Eighth's reign, who, 647 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: of course, as you guys know, Henry Tudor's son, UM, 648 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: he the priory, Greyfriars Priory was demolished in a garden 649 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: took its place for a while. Then a bus depot 650 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: found a playground, and I'm sure depending on how long 651 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: ago this playground was, it can't have been too long 652 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,640 Speaker 1: if it came after the bus depot. UM. I'm thinking 653 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 1: of people who are who maybe played there now and 654 00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: they're thinking, oh my god, I was on the swings UM. 655 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: And then finally this parking lot. There's a parking lot UM. 656 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:12,440 Speaker 1: So there was this interest from a society that UM 657 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 1: focuses on UM sort of further exploring Richard the Third's 658 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 1: memory interest among them and getting this site excavated UM, 659 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,880 Speaker 1: and finally enough money was raised, these excavations began, and 660 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, they found him. I think it 661 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: was about the first day. Pretty remarkable because they did 662 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: not know the layout of where the priory had been 663 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,520 Speaker 1: had been in relation to the parking lot, and where 664 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 1: whether Richard was even definitely there, because there there were 665 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,399 Speaker 1: rumors that he had been thrown in the river right 666 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: so well, because it was unmarked and there was nothing 667 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: with him, there was nothing to ensure that it hadn't 668 00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: that the body hadn't moved inadvertently even over the years, 669 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: like people could have easily dug it up and tossed 670 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: it elsewhere and not even known that they were handling 671 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: that of a king. Um. So there's a lot of 672 00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: questions now about where he's gonna end up. Um. You know, 673 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: his supporters want him in Westminster Abbey, other people want 674 00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:22,839 Speaker 1: in different places. Um. It'll be an evolving story, I'm sure, 675 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,839 Speaker 1: but one that's clearly caught everybody's attention and probably got 676 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,719 Speaker 1: them thinking more about the man behind the Shakespeare character. Well, 677 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: and I like that there have already been some really 678 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: cool um technological approaches to the story where they're taking 679 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,640 Speaker 1: the remains and sort of rendering out the most realistic 680 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: images of him, which is I love that because it 681 00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: just makes history coming alive in a way that most 682 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: people in the modern era don't think about. You know, 683 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: we think about them as like the guy in the 684 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 1: painting a lot of the time. But to see a 685 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: three D rendering based on his skeletal structure makes him 686 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,960 Speaker 1: more real and more human, especially for the age he 687 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:05,439 Speaker 1: lived in, because the painting style is it's so hard 688 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 1: to see to imagine what somebody might have looked like. 689 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: Although now that we've seen the three D renderings of 690 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,719 Speaker 1: what he looked like, it's yeah, okay, he's painting not 691 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 1: about similarity, um, but to see somebody and think that 692 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 1: this was a person. And also it's sort of put 693 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: an end to a lot of the myths about his 694 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,920 Speaker 1: physical handicaps to UM, he was not hunchbacked. Um, he 695 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: had what looks like pretty severe scoliosis from his his 696 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: spine that he developed an adolescence. But um, a lot 697 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,719 Speaker 1: of this was clearly played up to further emphasize his 698 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: wickedness as people would have associated the two um in 699 00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:53,799 Speaker 1: earlier times. And and just more crazy rumors about him 700 00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,399 Speaker 1: born after two year pregnancy. We're in with a full 701 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: set of teeth, you know, just really bizarre our stuff, 702 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: which is you know, part of the fund of history. 703 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: It is, it is, but also sometimes crazy and outlandish. 704 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: So I'm glad that this happened. Obviously a lot of 705 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:18,480 Speaker 1: a good uh exclamation um, but this this is truly 706 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:25,960 Speaker 1: a remarkable one, so a good one to end on. Okay, 707 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 1: So Holly, we have some listener mail today. We do UM. 708 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,839 Speaker 1: I always like when we hear from students who are 709 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:39,880 Speaker 1: doing things history related, podcast related UM. And this email 710 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,240 Speaker 1: comes from Betsey. She lives in Wisconsin and she wrote 711 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: to say UM that she well, I'll just go ahead 712 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: and read it. She said, last summer, I went to 713 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: Europe on a twelve day trip with my school. Sounds 714 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,640 Speaker 1: really fun, really jealous. UM the Stephane missed in History 715 00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 1: class podcast not only provided me entertainment on the never 716 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: ending flights and bus rides, but it also comforted me 717 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,280 Speaker 1: when I was homesick and not able to sleep because 718 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: of jet lag. So that's very sweet. And then she 719 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,879 Speaker 1: also said that she's using UM the podcast to help 720 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,320 Speaker 1: her in class. She's in a forensics class in high school. 721 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:21,520 Speaker 1: Another thing that sounds really cool. We have forensics class, UM. 722 00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:25,120 Speaker 1: But she said that every year you get to pick 723 00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,800 Speaker 1: up a time period, usually about ten year time period 724 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: that you have to write about and deliver a speech on. 725 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 1: And she said that there's a lot of competition about 726 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: picking uh a unique topic, something that not everybody is 727 00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: going to already know from that time period, so she 728 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,200 Speaker 1: said that the podcast have really helped her and a 729 00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,680 Speaker 1: few of her other teammate friends pick out subjects this 730 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,239 Speaker 1: year because the time period was nineteen o one to 731 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen. Um. And she said that she and her 732 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: friends chose the Poison Squad episode about Dr Wiley one 733 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: of her friends to an episode on Mistress of Murder 734 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: Hill as inspiration to kick off their forensic very lovel um. 735 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:12,719 Speaker 1: So thank you, Betsy, and I hope your project well. Um. 736 00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,400 Speaker 1: Also we have another small bit of business we do. Um. 737 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: You guys knew it was coming. I didn't want to 738 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,280 Speaker 1: string you along. Um, but this is my last episode, 739 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,399 Speaker 1: so it's very making pounty lip. Yeah, I don't want 740 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,800 Speaker 1: to get to I'll start tearing up, as I always 741 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: do in these things. But UM, I mean I certainly 742 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: wanted to, Um, thank folks here at how stuff works. 743 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: Um uh you know former co host of course, Holly. 744 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,440 Speaker 1: It's been a lot of fun hosting with you, to 745 00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: host with you, So I'm I wish you would stay 746 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,239 Speaker 1: forever and we could just have a big three or 747 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:54,279 Speaker 1: four people around this ship. That would be awesome. That 748 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,440 Speaker 1: would be pretty fun. Just for the record too. I 749 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,359 Speaker 1: know there have been some questions on Facebook and uh 750 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,879 Speaker 1: Twitter and via email. Sarah is not leaving house to work. 751 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,480 Speaker 1: She's just gonna go back to doing primarily editing, which 752 00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,359 Speaker 1: is really what all of us do. Um, But then 753 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,400 Speaker 1: we get to do the podcast, this sort of the 754 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: cherry on top of our delightful day jobs. So that's 755 00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,080 Speaker 1: a that's a good hint to up. Maybe if I 756 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 1: have Crazy Richard the third ideas, I'll be whispering them 757 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,440 Speaker 1: in Holly's ear, so there could be cameo appearances, we 758 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: hope in the future. But yeah, she'll still be around, 759 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,800 Speaker 1: So she's not leaving us, just just the podcast for 760 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: a bit because it is um. You know, it takes 761 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,920 Speaker 1: some work, and I've done it for so long now too, 762 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: I figured it was time. Still breaks, the torch'll break 763 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,799 Speaker 1: and blood in here. But I still be giggling at 764 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: the water cooler while the rest us are researching pulling 765 00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,440 Speaker 1: your hair out after late research tonight, I'll be just relaxing, 766 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: completely relaxed. Agree Hey you guys, what up? Brush as 767 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: a daisy over here. I didn't want to thank listeners though, um, 768 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: just while I while I have this platform too, I mean, 769 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 1: I don't say it lightly. I don't say it um 770 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,839 Speaker 1: without really meaning it. But you guys have been so inspiring, 771 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,800 Speaker 1: and the stories I've heard from you, Um, the stories 772 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,520 Speaker 1: related to podcasts, the things that a show that I've 773 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: had a pardon have inspired you to do, that's always 774 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: really amazing. People who have gone back to school, people 775 00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,160 Speaker 1: who are doing their forensics project. That's so neat to me. 776 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:31,680 Speaker 1: And um, even just folks, when I hear that you're 777 00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:36,600 Speaker 1: inspired to go research to subjects some more, that's really touching. 778 00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,439 Speaker 1: And then, UM, I just have to thank you guys 779 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:44,880 Speaker 1: too for being so kind and generous. That blows me away. 780 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,719 Speaker 1: The giant box of postcards I have, the emails that 781 00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,600 Speaker 1: come pouring in, the sweet gifts and books and all 782 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,120 Speaker 1: sorts of things that listeners have sent from all over 783 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 1: the world. That you guys have taken the time to 784 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,160 Speaker 1: um think about us and and send us things means 785 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,879 Speaker 1: a lot. So I've really enjoyed it. As Holly said, 786 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: I'll still be around and um, I'm also on Twitter 787 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: too if you want to keep in touch that way. 788 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,680 Speaker 1: I met Sarah Dowdy Sarah with an H. Dowdy with 789 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,480 Speaker 1: an E. Y. It's very hard to spell name. Um. So, yes, 790 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,759 Speaker 1: I definitely look forward to still hearing from y'all and 791 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,040 Speaker 1: it's been really fun and we can't thank you enough 792 00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:31,200 Speaker 1: for all you've contributed, and you know, you've really enriched it. 793 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:32,840 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people just adore you and 794 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,000 Speaker 1: you're the voice of history to them, which is great. 795 00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: It stinks for me because I have to go on 796 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,759 Speaker 1: without you and muddle through, but you know I'll have 797 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:45,080 Speaker 1: your hears handy reference. Yeah. I think you've done a 798 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,919 Speaker 1: great service to sort of the history community globally. You've 799 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: really made a lot of things come alive. Don't get 800 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,279 Speaker 1: all you know, don't be all dismissive, it's just get 801 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,760 Speaker 1: chary Holly, thank you so much though, that's true. Sweet 802 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,520 Speaker 1: Um Well, yes, signing off now you beat deep in 803 00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,320 Speaker 1: screech out of the sunset, go home a little earlier today, 804 00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: but I can't leave before doing the standard pitch. There 805 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: you go. If you want to email Holly and Tracy, 806 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: you can do so by writing them at History Podcast 807 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,600 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com. We're on Twitter missed in History 808 00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 1: and we're on Facebook and we have a really awesome 809 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:31,120 Speaker 1: article to go with this awesome topic. Yeah, if you 810 00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,760 Speaker 1: go to our website and you just type in Richard 811 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,920 Speaker 1: the Third you'll come up with a few different articles, 812 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: but the really fun one is the top ten heads 813 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: that rolled during the reign of Henry b Ah, which 814 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: is when I edited. As I've mentioned before, and it 815 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,600 Speaker 1: was so much fun to find art for actually a 816 00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: top ten. It's kind of like, oh, that's a lot 817 00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,399 Speaker 1: of images. It's a lot of work, but when they're fun, 818 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:58,440 Speaker 1: they're really fun. And it's Germaine because as we've mentioned, 819 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:03,120 Speaker 1: there's some of those. They're like a seed drags into 820 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: the Henry the Eighth world. So, uh, if you want 821 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: to learn more about that or anything else your mind 822 00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,279 Speaker 1: can conjure, you can do so at our website, which 823 00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: is how stuff Works dot com. For more on this 824 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,680 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff Works 825 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:19,120 Speaker 1: dot com.