WEBVTT - Biden's Framework for Taxing Multinational Corporations 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.400 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Charle Masser and I'm 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanobek. We're here every day bringing 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:09.799 you the latest news from the world of business and finance, 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.600 plus technology, politics, economics, all harnessing the power of Business 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.119 Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.600 analysts in more than one and twenty countries. You can 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:23.200 download Bloomberg Business Week and iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:25.120 You can also listen to our radio show at two 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:27.840 pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.600 YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. We had many headlines today. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.640 We talked about states and cities around the US having 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.159 a growing surplus of COVID nineteen vaccines, and then you 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.720 had that headline coming out of CNBC, specifically the CEO 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:44.160 of Fieser saying what we might need a third vaccine. Yeah, 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.640 that's right, the CEO saying, with any year potentially need 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.239 a third vaccine. It's something that we've talked a lot 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:49.720 and asked a lot of our guests about what are 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:51.199 the chances that this is something we are going to 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:54.320 have to continue to inoculate ourselves against Yeah, exactly part 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.520 of kind of our annual taking care of ourselves. Also, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.520 don't forget that late yesterday afternoon you had US Public 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:02.800 Health Advisors concluding a meeting on J and J's COVID 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:07.080 nineteen vaccine without a vote no vote, effectively extending that 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:09.840 pause on its use while they seek more data on 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.080 a rare clotting side effects. So let's get our daily 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:15.400 check on COVID and the vaccine rollout. Dr Anna durban 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.039 is Professor of International Health at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.520 School of Public Health, of course, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder, 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.520 Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. She's on the phone in Maryland. 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:27.720 Dr Durbin, nice to have you here with us. How 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.880 are you And when you look out at the COVID 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.840 and vaccine rollout horizon, how does it look to you? Well, 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.160 thank you very much for having me today. I think 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.440 we can look at the vaccine rollout really from the 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:43.960 point of the United States and then globally, because I 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.040 think we're in two very different circumstances, particularly with the 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:50.960 pause on the J and J vaccine and then the 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.960 restrictions on news that Europe has put in place for 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:58.280 the Astra's NFA vaccine, so so so go ahead divide 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:00.480 it for us. The US, I'm assuming you're saying, doing 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:04.320 pretty good and the rest of the world not so good. Exactly. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.400 In the US were very, very lucky to have options. 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:10.200 We have the madinal vaccine, we have the Visor vaccine, 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.560 we have J and J which has been UM given 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:15.960 EAY but is currently on pause. And then we have 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.480 a couple of other vaccines that are going to go 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:21.679 before the FDA in the Nazi distant future, one of 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:25.040 which is Astra Zeneca. But the rest of the world 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:30.960 has really um has really depended heavily on different vaccines, 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:34.079 on the astro Zenica vaccine, and then UM of course 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:37.760 there's the vaccine Sputnik five from Russian and some inactivated 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.280 vaccines that have been made in different countries. UM And 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.560 with the concerns about the clotting, although I will and 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.200 I do want to emphasize that it's a very rare 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.160 um event, but it can be devastating, which is why 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.079 I think it's appropriate that CDC and the Advisory committees 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.480 are sort of taking a pause and getting more information 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:01.640 to help us better understand what's going on, but that 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.359 has made less vaccine available, um here in the US, 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:09.919 but also I think globally. Hey, Dr Derby, I want 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:11.120 to we have a lot to cover here and I 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.680 really want to hit on this idea of when those 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.440 who don't qualify for a vaccine will be able to 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.519 get vaccinated, specifically children, because we learned today, uh from 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.200 the Mercury News out in California, that Stanford is starting 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:27.600 to test visors vaccine and babies and young children. Does 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.000 this look promising to you? It looks very promising. And 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:34.240 I want to say also Maderna has those pediatric childs 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.440 planned and has started as well, not quite as young 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:40.680 as Visor, but still in children, and I think that's 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:43.960 very promising. I think our expectations are that we're going 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.920 to start to see children being vaccinated probably late summer, 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:53.440 early fall. Young six months is what they're testing. But yeah, 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:57.240 they probably won't start in six months. Um well yeah, 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.280 go ahead. Well I'm just wondering how you know non 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.120 pandemic vaccine trials go for children as young as six months. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:05.400 I mean, this is the type of thing that needs 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.040 they need to be followed for a long period of 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:09.480 time to make sure there aren't effects that that come 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.280 after years, right right, Well, you know it's interesting this, 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.719 you know we this, uh, the way we've been testing 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.440 these vaccines and children is the way we've been testing 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.680 vaccines in children all along. So we always with children, 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:27.599 were very very careful and start testing in adults first 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:31.520 for safety, and then go down in age, gradually looking 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:36.760 at safety and then of course immunogenicity. So this process 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:40.320 is really not any different for the COVID vaccines. UM. 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.440 I think what's interesting is of course that we're starting 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.760 vaccination in adults as opposed to children. Most vaccines were 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.440 used to being given to children. UM. And we will 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:54.360 proceed carefully, so the rollout will be for instance, in 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.160 adolescents and then going down to younger children, for instance 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.719 five to twelve years of age, and then going down. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.880 We're not going to start in the sixth month. Dr Durvin. 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:05.280 Let me ask you. We've got about a minute and 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:06.720 we're gonna do some news and we'll come back and 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.320 continue with you. But I can't help but feel there 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:12.880 are people coming up to you, maybe in other's and 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:15.560 just saying, see, I told you we did this too fast. 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:17.520 Look at what's going on with the J and J vaccine. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:19.240 What do you say to them and just got about 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.480 a minute. Oh, I say this this is showing us 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.800 that our safety surveillance system works. So this is a 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:29.040 very very rare event, you know, one in a million, 0:05:29.120 --> 0:05:32.400 that's not going to be picked up in clinical trials. 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.679 But what we do have is what we call post 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.440 life or post use surveillance for safety. And it was 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.120 picked up very quickly, you know, within a month of 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:43.800 the eu A being given. So I think what this 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:46.840 shows this is that our safety surveillance works were able 0:05:46.880 --> 0:05:50.360 to pick up a very very rare event. We've you know, 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.080 looked at it. Safety experts have said, okay, let's take 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.320 a step back, let's pause, let's get more information, and 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:59.039 we'll proceed from there. So I say, it shows that 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.839 the system is working, that we picked it up, we're 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.960 dealing with it, we're going to see what's happening, and 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.560 we'll proceed from there. Let's get right back to Dr 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:09.279 Anna Durbin, Professor of International Health at the Johns Hopkins 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:11.479 Bloomberg School of Public Health, joins us on the phone 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.080 from Baltimore. The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.480 is supported by Michael or Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.360 and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Dr Durbin, I want to talk a 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.640 little bit about data and numbers. We did just here 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.760 from Charlie from Dr Amish Adulga, one of your colleagues 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.279 at the Bloomberg School of Public Health. He comes on 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:29.880 quick Take each week, and one thing that he's talked 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:33.320 about is that we shouldn't necessarily judge things by the 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.400 way that, uh, the cases are going up still, because 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.560 it's not necessarily the right metric anymore because so many 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.480 vulnerable populations have been inoculated. So even though we're seeing 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.960 a rising cases, we're actually not seeing a rise in 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.640 deaths and potentially a fourth wave here. Um, what do 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.360 you make of the fact that cases are going up 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.839 but but deaths are going down. Well, I think he's 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.000 exactly right, and I think there's a couple of things 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.280 that we look at to sort of explain why the 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:01.440 numbers of cases are going up. We've been in this 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.680 pandemic a year. The vaccine rollout has started, and I 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.680 think people are are becoming more optimistic and sort of 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.520 seeing light at the end of the tunnel and going 0:07:10.520 --> 0:07:14.840 out doing more UM, maybe wearing masks a little bit less. 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:17.080 And then we also have the emergence, of course of 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.760 the B one one seven variant, particularly in Michigan UM, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:24.360 which we know is more transmissible. The good news is 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:28.960 that most of the vulnerable population, or a great deal 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.040 of the vulnerable population, has been vaccinated. So we are 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:37.520 seeing fewer deaths, fewer hospitalizations, which is very very good news. 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.640 And I think that also always brings me back to 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:43.520 when we talk about vaccine efficacy, and you know, people 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:46.040 try to compare numbers, and I think what gets lost 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:48.760 in some of that discussion is that what we're really 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:53.640 trying to prevent is diseased. We're trying to prevent severe disease, 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:58.040 prevent hospitalization, prevent death. And I think as all adults 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:01.120 moved towards being vaccinated, we're really going to see that 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.360 take effect. It does also feel like Dr Durbin at 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.080 the we're getting to a point where we have this 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.000 toolkit of things to deal with the virus. UH, We've 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:15.600 got several vaccines right preventing people from getting the worst 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.920 of COVID cases and keeping them out of the hospitals. 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:20.440 I mean, we've really come a long way in thirteen months. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:24.960 We have come a tremendous way in in thirteen months. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.520 I think it's really unprecedented, and I think we've learned 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:31.560 a lot. We've learned a lot about, um, what to 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.720 do in a pandemic, what we've done right, what we've 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.240 done wrong. I think how important leadership and messaging is 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:41.560 around different public health practices. And it's interesting because they 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.320 have a lot of colleagues and friends who say, even 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.120 when the pandemic is over, they're going to wear a 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.160 mask when they go to the grocery store because they 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.560 saw the effect on influences and other things. So, you know, 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:56.199 we've come a long way, and um, it's it's we 0:08:56.280 --> 0:08:58.080 still have a ways to go, but I think I 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:59.439 think we're going to get there, and I think the 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.679 summer's going to look a lot better for everyone. There's 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.160 this exclusive story that we talked about a little earlier 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:07.520 by our own Anna Edney and Drew Armstrong talking about 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.280 unused vaccines piling up across the US as some regions resist. 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.120 How do we get that last portion of Americans, those 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.400 ones who are hesitant to get the vaccine and what 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.320 happens if we don't. Let's start with what happens if 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.400 we don't like what happens here? So I think what 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.160 happens if we don't As we continue to see transmission, UM, 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.880 we may see more variants arise, and I think what 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.240 that's going to do is lead to UM requiring or 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:39.440 or having to be vaccinated. UM again, get a third shot, UM, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.200 or even you know, a year from now, get another shot, 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.880 because as long as we have ongoing transmission, I think 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:49.679 we're going to keep vaccinating those people who are willing 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.480 to get vaccinated. And I think, you know, that's where 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.080 we get to the global picture, the worldwide picture. UM. 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.760 You know, the rest of the world is not going 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.960 to be vaccinated for quite a while. And that's why 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.760 I think we are going to need a third shot, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.719 a booster shot, if you will, because as long as 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.960 the rest of the world is not vaccinated, or as 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.719 long as we have ongoing transmission, we're going to need vaccination. 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:18.000 And probably though also every year just got thirty seconds here, yeah, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.439 well every year for a while and control this pandemic, 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.360 and we'll see there may be emergence of other coronaviruses. 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:26.640 But I think you're right, we'll be vaccinated for at 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.959 least the next year or two. All right, great day, 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.120 get some time with you. Thank you so much. I 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:33.839 know you guys are all busy. Dr Anna Durbin. She's 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.560 Professor of International Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.360 Public Health, of course, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.920 Bloomberg ALP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. On the phone from Maryland. 0:10:43.040 --> 0:10:45.120 I like the idea of, you know, thinking about this 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:46.840 from the perspective of we don't have to get a 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:49.000 booster every year for the rest of our lives, and 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:50.840 maybe this is something well we have to do for 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.840 a couple of years or even a year. Yeah, until 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.200 the next virus. Oh, come on, Carl, I was gonna 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.000 end on a good note a little. Yeah, you you 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.480 think a lot about that next pandemic. This is Bloomberg 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.199 Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:10.000 Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Well. President Biden is among the 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.800 latest to ignite or reignite the global effort to create 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.560 a united front to prevent multinational corporations from playing one 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:21.839 country off against another million. It's all about Tim dodging taxes. Yeah, 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.760 they're big question is, how do you do this in 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.640 a way that every gets everyone around the world to 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.400 work together and avoid what's been happening really since the 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:33.240 nineteen eighties. Combine moment is what we need. Hey, this 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:35.040 is a story in the magazine this week. Let's get 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.400 more on it. Bloomberg business Week Economics editor Peter coy 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:39.440 on the phone in New Jersey, along with Bloomberg Business 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.360 Week editor Joel Webber on the access line in Brooklyn. Joel, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:46.400 we love our tax stories here at Bloomberg. Yeah, and 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.679 we love it so much. Business Week made this the 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:53.520 International UH cover because I thought it was really an 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:58.120 interesting insight into sort of a pretty significant change in 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:02.760 the zeitgeist around corporate taxes and UM. What we've been 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.679 seeing UM is sort of an unfrustated moment where rich 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.440 nations and poor nations are are sort of getting on 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.720 a similar page, which is we need to raise corporate 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.360 taxes and UH sort of end up penalizing those countries, 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:21.880 the the Irelands of the world that attempts to sort 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:24.480 of like set a lower bar. So so Peter talked 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:29.280 to us more about this, this race against UH, the 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:32.400 UH taxes going to zero right, sort of the race 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:35.400 against the race to the bottom. Yeah, exactly, there you go. 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.600 There's a natural tendency for countries to seek advantage by 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:45.400 cutting rates because then companies will shift their profits to 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.680 your jurisdiction and you'll be able to get something out 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:50.199 of it. It might be a low rate, but it's 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.600 better than you would have gotten if it's probably weren't 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:55.800 there at all. Sometimes it's real operations, factory and the 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:59.920 song which is semi legit. But sometimes it's purely really 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.559 hoarded profits. It'll be like you'll you'll say, all your 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.200 patents are in the Cayman Islands because of the zero 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.160 corporate income tax rate. And these games have been going 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:13.599 on for years. Governments have been trying to plug the holes, 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.840 but the corporations have smart tax lawyers, and every time 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.959 one hole gets plugged, another one gets opened. So we've 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.040 had this, as we say, race to the bottom going 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.240 on for a long time, and corporate income tax from 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.160 it affects domestic tax rates as well, because you can't 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:34.520 tax your own companies very highly if they're well aware 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.200 that they can escape it by going abroad. So there's 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.760 an impact on the sovereign government. Yeah, you call it 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.199 a game of cat and mouse. Also, I'm wondering about incentives, though, Peter, 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.600 because there is this incentive for for one country to 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.040 attract a business, of course, So how do you align 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.840 incentives in a way that prevents companies or countries excuse me, 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.080 from creating policies that undercut some sort of international ena. Well, 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.080 first of all, there's no rule that says you can't 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.560 have a low tax rate the But what it does 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.360 say is that they're called it the guilty rule, which 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.360 I love. It's spelled g I L T I, but 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:19.240 it's pronounced guilty as in caught you cut, you cheating 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:25.240 that if it's uh, it's intangible income such as from patents, trademarks, 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.080 so on that, and it's in a low tax jurisdiction. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.600 The the U S or any other higher tax jurisdiction 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.080 can tax it up to a certain level above what 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.120 the local jurisdiction chooses to tax. And once you have 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.520 that in place, it's sorty moves the incentive to move 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:43.880 to the low tax jurisdiction because the taxes are going 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:48.320 to follow you wherever you go. So, Peter, the one 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:53.160 big change here, obviously is the Biden administration, And I'm 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.200 want to talk about that, and why don't we use 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:57.520 Kimberly classing as a way to talk about that? Who 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.240 is she Kimberly Classing? I interviewed her for an article 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.680 in seventeen kind of about this theme, but at the 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.400 time there wasn't a lot of progress, and she was 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:10.480 sort of a voice crying in the wilderness. Shosa economics 0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:14.160 professor Read College in Portland. She's said, you know, well, 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.960 I believe Joel uh And and Read is also you know, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.880 the left of left. Yeah, it is. It's a kind 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.560 of a lefty school. Since then, she moved to u 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:27.960 c l A Law school in January. This January, five 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.040 days after she arrived there, she got the call from 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.680 the White House, or not the White House yet, but 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:37.320 the incoming administration saying we want you on our team 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:41.480 at Treasury. So suddenly, this this person who was kind 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.040 of as josh as on the outside looking in, is 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:48.400 very much on the inside looking out and helping make policy, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:53.920 testifying before Congress, and and helping wholly the Biden administration, 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.480 which under Trump had been sort of resisting some of 0:15:57.480 --> 0:15:59.440 the efforts by the O E. C. D in the 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.640 Group of is now very much in concert with those 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.320 other countries and with the poor countries as well. There's 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.800 a hundred thirty nine rich and poor countries together trying 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.720 to come up with a joint policy. So and how 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:17.000 has the Biden approach been received abroad? It's it's it's 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:20.800 been received well because there are a lot of countries that, 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.040 you know, they may be engaged to the race to 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.800 the in the race to the bottom, but they don't 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.520 like it. They'd much rather have a race to the top, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.600 or at least some kind of stability. So, for example, 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:38.280 the Finance Minister of France, Bruno lemaire Um, has basically said, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:42.240 you know, this is looking like it could be a 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:46.640 revolution attacks revolution, that's what he called it. So yeah, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:51.200 the overall they don't agree with everything the Biden administration 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.720 wants to do, but they sense tonally that they're they're 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.640 more in sync than they have been in a long time. Well, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.480 I kidded coming into this, Peter, that kind of a 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.520 Kumbaya moment when it comes to taxes globally, I feel 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:06.760 like we're just this time where it's just hard to 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:09.679 get anything done and get everybody to cooperate on something. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:13.600 So likely that we do ultimately get something done and 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.240 how quickly if we do. I do believe that it's 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.360 likely something is going to happen here. There have been 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.840 previous efforts. So there was another effort that was concluded 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:26.400 in that went some of the way towards what we're 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:28.639 getting at now, but they felt it wasn't enough, so 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:30.520 they went back to the drawing board and they had 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.960 the second effort, which is more comprehensive, more countries involved. 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:39.600 So there was a great quote from Pascal's sentim with 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.440 a director of OAS Center for Tax Policy and Administration 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.040 who said, you know, there's no plan B if the 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:50.640 project fails, but there's a plan C chaos. So Peter, 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.240 if if something does happen very briefly, we only have 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.960 thirty seconds left. Um, what does it mean for the 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.520 bottom line of for U S companies and global companies. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.560 Are they going to see higher taxes or they're going 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.200 to have to have these lawyers come in and find loopholes. 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.720 Bottom line is that it won't be quite so easy 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:13.120 to find loopholes, so taxes will go up modestly, But 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:17.320 but the US companies will not be affected. US headquarter 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:19.200 mostly net will be less affected because they have a 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.840 harder higher tax race to start with, it's the companies 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.320 that have been most effectively escaping taxation who will fule 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.840 at the most, which does include some of us companies. Well, 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:31.800 it's a great read and something that's certainly has caught 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.479 everybody's attention. Anything with taxes. Um, Peter, thank you, Thank you. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:39.080 Peter Koy, Economics editor, the international cover a Bloomberg Business 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.480 Week this week, and Joe Weber are thanks to you 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.600 as well. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.200 and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. Well, 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.560 we did have another IPO today this year also, it's 0:18:53.560 --> 0:18:56.640 been a busy ipo. Calendar mobile apps company app leven 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.960 and existing shareholder kk are pricing an initial public off 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.800 ferring at the midpoint of a marketed range, raising two 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.440 billion eighty dollars of share. Stock began trading day a 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.200 little bit of a delayed open, and they did open 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.320 trading below their offering price. Right now, the stock at 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.760 sixty fifty a share down. About let's get into the 0:19:15.040 --> 0:19:18.000 business and what's ahead for app Love and the CEO 0:19:18.040 --> 0:19:21.040 and co founder Adam Ferrugi joins us. Now he's on 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.080 the phone from the nastac Adam. Nice to have you 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.040 here with us. How are you. Thanks, thanks for having 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.879 me doing well well. Tell us a bit about your company, 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.880 and you guys didn't go the traditional route of kind 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:35.720 of tapping VC money and venture funds. You went the 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.160 leverage loan market. Just tell us about your your whole 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:43.320 approach to bringing this company and building out this startup. Yeah, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.960 for sure. We we built a technology platform to help 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.800 app developers get their apps discovered, and we started in 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:52.720 two thousand twelve in market. We've been profitable ever since 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:57.480 and the business today drives our partners over three billion 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.760 app installs. To customer is the consumer, and we have 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.600 software in the middle that does matching make sure the 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.800 consumer discovers the best content. So wait, do me a 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.000 favorite break it down, because I think somebody's listening and like, 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.520 I don't know this world that he said, explain it. 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:15.560 So have you worked with a client, Pick a client 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.959 if you can, or just be generic, but what you 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:21.200 might do for them. Let's say you built an app, 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.119 and you built this cool new game and you needed 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:27.080 to find users for it. When we started, we built 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:28.640 an app and we put it on an app store 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.119 and couldn't get it discovered. So we built this platform 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.480 to let you go onto our platform, market your app 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.840 to consumers, and then get them to understand what you're 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.760 promoting and download the app and engage with it. We 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:45.320 now see over four million daily active users on our platform, 0:20:45.400 --> 0:20:48.119 and we're matching them up with apps from our partners 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:54.000 three billion times a year plus. How do consumers interact 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.560 with the apps that your service recommends on a long 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.480 term basis? Right? It's one thing. My phone is full 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.720 of apps that I just do not use anymore that 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:04.880 I've downloaded once. What are the metrics that you have? 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:10.800 It's the consumer sees the app through a commercial, typically 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.880 anywhere from five to thirty seconds, think like a television commercial, 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.480 highlighting what the app has to offer. Our software in 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:19.840 the middle is matching up consumers that are going to 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.080 become customers of that app developer. We do a great 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.359 job of predicting what the consumers are actually going to 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.520 be interested in, and we deliver performance to our advertisers. 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.639 How do you do that in a way that uses 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:35.439