1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,356 --> 00:00:24,236 Speaker 2: So Jenny Chase, who's arguably the foremost solar analyst in 3 00:00:24,276 --> 00:00:27,916 Speaker 2: the world, recently said, by twenty thirty, in the middle 4 00:00:27,956 --> 00:00:30,636 Speaker 2: of the day, essentially everywhere in the world, unless it's 5 00:00:30,636 --> 00:00:32,956 Speaker 2: a cloudy day, electricity is free. 6 00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:36,316 Speaker 1: She told me that at nine am today. I interviewed 7 00:00:36,356 --> 00:00:37,436 Speaker 1: her five hours ago. 8 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 3: Seven hours All right, great, So now that we live 9 00:00:41,716 --> 00:00:45,996 Speaker 3: in that world like people don't get how profound a 10 00:00:46,116 --> 00:00:50,796 Speaker 3: transformation that is. 11 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. I 12 00:00:55,996 --> 00:00:58,716 Speaker 1: hope you listened to last week's episode where I did, 13 00:00:58,756 --> 00:01:02,756 Speaker 1: in fact talk to solar expert Jenny Chase about how 14 00:01:02,876 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: solar energy got so cheap. That was the first of 15 00:01:07,076 --> 00:01:09,996 Speaker 1: three shows we're doing on the triumph of solar power. 16 00:01:10,516 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: Today and next week, I'm going to be talking to 17 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:15,796 Speaker 1: people who have very big plans for what to do 18 00:01:16,276 --> 00:01:21,036 Speaker 1: with that very cheap or even free, intermittent solar energy. 19 00:01:21,756 --> 00:01:25,036 Speaker 1: My guest today is John O'Donnell. He wants to use 20 00:01:25,156 --> 00:01:28,196 Speaker 1: cheap solar and wind energy to solve one of the 21 00:01:28,236 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: biggest unsolved problems in the energy transition heat industrial heat, 22 00:01:34,916 --> 00:01:39,036 Speaker 1: delivering the reliable, intense heat that companies around the world 23 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:42,116 Speaker 1: need to make everything from steel beams. 24 00:01:41,716 --> 00:01:42,516 Speaker 2: To t shirts. 25 00:01:42,916 --> 00:01:47,476 Speaker 1: Today, company's burn fossil fuel to generate that heat. John 26 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:50,316 Speaker 1: is the co founder of Rondo Energy, a company that 27 00:01:50,636 --> 00:01:54,036 Speaker 1: John thinks has figured out an economical way to turn 28 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: intermittent electricity into industrial heat. John has started companies before, 29 00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:01,236 Speaker 1: and at the beginning of our conversation he told me 30 00:02:01,356 --> 00:02:03,996 Speaker 1: one of the most important and really kind of surprising 31 00:02:04,076 --> 00:02:06,556 Speaker 1: lessons that he learned from those earlier. 32 00:02:06,196 --> 00:02:11,716 Speaker 2: Companies innovate as little as you can. If the technology 33 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 2: is going to make a difference, one of the important 34 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 2: questions is not just how quickly can I develop it 35 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:19,636 Speaker 2: and make a first unit, but how quickly can I 36 00:02:19,676 --> 00:02:22,916 Speaker 2: make it bankable? How quickly can I make it suitable 37 00:02:23,436 --> 00:02:27,436 Speaker 2: for billion dollar infrastructure investments. And it is a very 38 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:33,716 Speaker 2: high standard to be able to prove reliability, durability, certainty 39 00:02:33,756 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 2: of deployability. And there are lots of material science research groups, 40 00:02:41,916 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 2: folks who are trying to work on innovations at an 41 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:52,276 Speaker 2: individual cell level, who don't really necessarily understand the challenge 42 00:02:52,356 --> 00:02:56,996 Speaker 2: that customers by systems, bankers by infrastructure that we know 43 00:02:57,156 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 2: will last for thirty years. And it was with that 44 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 2: rigorous focus of what is the simplest, most proven thing 45 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:11,996 Speaker 2: that we could do that led us down the path 46 00:03:12,116 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 2: that we're that we chose because we found a path 47 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:22,036 Speaker 2: that others had opened two hundred years ago. That you know, 48 00:03:22,116 --> 00:03:25,156 Speaker 2: we found a way to reuse a technology from the 49 00:03:25,196 --> 00:03:30,116 Speaker 2: eighteen fifties with a physics insight that let us use 50 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:34,636 Speaker 2: these proven materials in this new way to solve this challenge. 51 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: I love the idea that innovation is not your friend. 52 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 1: Like that's such a it's such a flip, right, it's 53 00:03:41,876 --> 00:03:45,236 Speaker 1: like the OCAM's razor of starting an energy transition company 54 00:03:45,356 --> 00:03:45,796 Speaker 1: or something. 55 00:03:46,996 --> 00:03:50,556 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, And you know, we saw this go 56 00:03:50,676 --> 00:03:52,956 Speaker 2: back to clean tech one point. Oh, go back to 57 00:03:52,996 --> 00:03:57,796 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, where there were companies that were 58 00:03:57,836 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 2: going to make PV out of anything but silicon because 59 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 2: we knew silicon was expensive. 60 00:04:02,956 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 1: PV meaning photovo takes photos solar solar panels. 61 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:12,356 Speaker 2: Yeah, and everybody knew that. Everybody quote unquote knew that 62 00:04:12,476 --> 00:04:15,076 Speaker 2: the simple dumb thing that we've been doing for a 63 00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:19,556 Speaker 2: long time, silicon wasn't going to get cheap enough. And 64 00:04:19,596 --> 00:04:26,196 Speaker 2: then China put capital into reducing the cost of making polysilicon, 65 00:04:26,396 --> 00:04:30,876 Speaker 2: just build more production. The cost of polysilicon fell seventy 66 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:36,396 Speaker 2: percent in one year. And today, just because of Right's law, 67 00:04:36,636 --> 00:04:41,196 Speaker 2: just because of learning curve, the simplest technology became the 68 00:04:41,316 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 2: dominant one. Today we see dozens of alternate battery chemistries 69 00:04:48,276 --> 00:04:50,116 Speaker 2: in electrochemical. 70 00:04:49,316 --> 00:04:54,636 Speaker 1: Batteries, alternatives to lithium ion, alternative lif yest, that's. 71 00:04:54,556 --> 00:04:59,676 Speaker 2: Right, which are facing that same Okay, how fast can 72 00:04:59,756 --> 00:05:03,276 Speaker 2: lithium ion improve? And it continues to improve better than 73 00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:10,396 Speaker 2: anyone forecasts. And again in our case, we are doing 74 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:14,876 Speaker 2: the absolute simplest thing and it is a solution that 75 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:16,156 Speaker 2: we know for sure works. 76 00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 1: So you mentioned you came up with this idea that 77 00:05:20,396 --> 00:05:24,356 Speaker 1: is a version of a two hundred year old idea. 78 00:05:24,956 --> 00:05:26,756 Speaker 1: What's the big idea? What's that idea? 79 00:05:27,476 --> 00:05:30,596 Speaker 2: Up until about ten years ago, most of the energy 80 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:33,596 Speaker 2: storage in the world was at blast furnaces. In the 81 00:05:33,636 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 2: eighteen fifties, there was an innovation that reduced coal use 82 00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 2: at a blast furnace by building a tower with a 83 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,956 Speaker 2: thousand tons of brick within it with air passages. The 84 00:05:45,036 --> 00:05:48,716 Speaker 2: exhaust from the blast furnace blows through that tower, heats 85 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:52,596 Speaker 2: the brick to fifteen hundred C. Then things are switched around. 86 00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:55,956 Speaker 2: The exhaust is being passed through another tower, and the 87 00:05:55,956 --> 00:05:59,116 Speaker 2: tower full of hot brick air is being sucked through 88 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:02,316 Speaker 2: that tower and preheated to twelve hundred cea into the 89 00:06:02,356 --> 00:06:03,716 Speaker 2: furnace to save coal. 90 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:08,996 Speaker 1: So basically, when they burn coal to make iron, they 91 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:12,476 Speaker 1: take the exhaust heat that comes out of the furnace, 92 00:06:12,676 --> 00:06:15,396 Speaker 1: they use that to heat up bricks, and then later 93 00:06:16,036 --> 00:06:18,676 Speaker 1: they feed that heat from the bricks back into the 94 00:06:18,676 --> 00:06:21,996 Speaker 1: furnace and it makes the plant essentially run more efficiently. 95 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:27,956 Speaker 2: That's right, And we had a physics insight that if 96 00:06:27,996 --> 00:06:32,636 Speaker 2: we built a particular structure we could use the same 97 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:36,196 Speaker 2: technology that is in your toaster. A very small amount 98 00:06:36,276 --> 00:06:41,236 Speaker 2: of heating elements are delivering heat by radiation, thermal radiation 99 00:06:41,756 --> 00:06:44,876 Speaker 2: and heating in the whole surface of the bread uniformly. 100 00:06:45,236 --> 00:06:48,956 Speaker 2: If we built the right structure, we could embed electrical 101 00:06:48,956 --> 00:06:52,956 Speaker 2: heating elements in a structure of brick with air passages 102 00:06:53,716 --> 00:06:58,956 Speaker 2: and heat that brick rapidly and uniformly to very high 103 00:06:58,996 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 2: temperatures and then pull heat out of it, just the 104 00:07:02,396 --> 00:07:06,156 Speaker 2: way the blast furnace units do. Cool air in superheated 105 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:09,356 Speaker 2: air out, and with superheated air we can drive a 106 00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:12,356 Speaker 2: cement kiln, or we can drive a boiler and make 107 00:07:12,436 --> 00:07:16,356 Speaker 2: steam for making everything from baby food to chemicals, and 108 00:07:17,196 --> 00:07:22,876 Speaker 2: that unlocked using this abundant you know, brick is basically 109 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:28,196 Speaker 2: made from dirt, certain kinds of clay. Yeah, no critical minerals, 110 00:07:28,196 --> 00:07:31,116 Speaker 2: and an unrefined material. I mean, that's one of the 111 00:07:31,156 --> 00:07:34,956 Speaker 2: things about Tesla wrote a report last year they're so 112 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 2: called master Plan three, their forecast for stationary storage. Their 113 00:07:41,396 --> 00:07:43,556 Speaker 2: assessment was the world is going to have twice as 114 00:07:43,636 --> 00:07:49,676 Speaker 2: much heat battery as electrochemical battery storage, but that this 115 00:07:49,916 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 2: is categlorically so much lower cost because it's using raw materials, 116 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:59,556 Speaker 2: not refined materials, because it's not doing any chemistry of 117 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:03,516 Speaker 2: any kind. It's the same technologies. 118 00:08:03,196 --> 00:08:05,676 Speaker 1: Just making stuff hot. It's just eating. 119 00:08:05,476 --> 00:08:08,756 Speaker 2: Bricks, so you can use raw materials exactly. 120 00:08:09,916 --> 00:08:14,076 Speaker 1: So okay, So just to kind of summarize, there's a 121 00:08:14,076 --> 00:08:17,516 Speaker 1: big problem in the world. Industries burn fossil fuel for 122 00:08:17,676 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 1: heat to make almost everything, steal, cement, clothes, whatever. You have, 123 00:08:23,876 --> 00:08:27,316 Speaker 1: This idea the kind of solution to the problem. We 124 00:08:27,356 --> 00:08:32,596 Speaker 1: can use intermittent, cheap, renewable electricity to heat up bricks 125 00:08:33,236 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 1: and use those bricks essentially to provide that heat. What 126 00:08:38,276 --> 00:08:41,196 Speaker 1: do you have to do, to industrialize it, to commercialize it, 127 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:42,356 Speaker 1: to make it a thing in the world. 128 00:08:43,676 --> 00:08:48,356 Speaker 2: So step by step. One of our engineering team members 129 00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:52,596 Speaker 2: and his last job was working on mocks six hypersonic missiles. 130 00:08:52,636 --> 00:08:57,676 Speaker 2: He now does computational fluid simulations on air moving at 131 00:08:57,716 --> 00:09:00,676 Speaker 2: about four miles an hour, and the challenge is just 132 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:04,236 Speaker 2: as high. We could not do what we're doing without 133 00:09:04,396 --> 00:09:08,996 Speaker 2: modern computer systems that let us do detailed simulations of 134 00:09:09,276 --> 00:09:13,196 Speaker 2: the structure and behavior. But step by step it was 135 00:09:14,156 --> 00:09:19,996 Speaker 2: really identifying, okay, which materials, which manufacturing processes, what geometry, 136 00:09:20,596 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 2: And we built a series of things that fit on 137 00:09:24,076 --> 00:09:27,596 Speaker 2: a desktop, to things that look like an industrial refrigerator, 138 00:09:27,716 --> 00:09:32,076 Speaker 2: to things that are just multiplied by about ten x. 139 00:09:32,876 --> 00:09:36,356 Speaker 2: And right now we're doing the fifty x step as 140 00:09:36,396 --> 00:09:40,196 Speaker 2: we go from the first commercial pilot unit to the 141 00:09:40,196 --> 00:09:45,596 Speaker 2: first series manufacturing of the commercial models. There are plenty 142 00:09:45,636 --> 00:09:48,316 Speaker 2: of different steps along the way this thing. As I 143 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:51,356 Speaker 2: said earlier, how do we innovate as little as possible, 144 00:09:51,516 --> 00:09:54,956 Speaker 2: as much as necessary, but as little as possible, And 145 00:09:55,036 --> 00:09:59,436 Speaker 2: how do we pick subsystems and partners so that we 146 00:09:59,516 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 2: are certain we can go to massive scale Because like 147 00:10:03,556 --> 00:10:08,396 Speaker 2: speed is the most important thing, one of the studies 148 00:10:08,436 --> 00:10:12,356 Speaker 2: of this cal as of heat batteries. Their finding was, Yeah, 149 00:10:12,356 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 2: this is going to eliminate about twenty percent of total 150 00:10:15,796 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 2: world CO two when it gets to scale. Okay, twenty 151 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:22,556 Speaker 2: percent is a lot, and it's going to reduce the 152 00:10:22,676 --> 00:10:27,716 Speaker 2: cost of manufacturing all the commodities that we use. So 153 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:30,156 Speaker 2: let's get to it. How do we get there as 154 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: fast as possible? 155 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 1: In a way, for something to scale that fast, it 156 00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:36,996 Speaker 1: has to be cheaper, right. The only way something can 157 00:10:37,036 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 1: grow that fast is if it's just cheaper and simple, right. 158 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:45,076 Speaker 1: It has to be those things. Otherwise it won't grow fast. 159 00:10:45,556 --> 00:10:47,916 Speaker 2: As long as there is some sort of premium or 160 00:10:47,996 --> 00:10:51,476 Speaker 2: higher cost, it will go as slowly as possible. If 161 00:10:51,476 --> 00:10:57,236 Speaker 2: you're in a razor thin margin commodity business, the last 162 00:10:57,236 --> 00:10:59,916 Speaker 2: thing you want is to increase your cost of production. 163 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:05,516 Speaker 2: Your customers may go elsewhere. But if there is no 164 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:08,516 Speaker 2: emission solution that will reduce your cost of production. 165 00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:14,076 Speaker 4: Yeah, markets, huge flows of private capital will drive it 166 00:11:14,156 --> 00:11:18,836 Speaker 4: to scale. It's if it's ready, if it really does 167 00:11:19,076 --> 00:11:22,156 Speaker 4: meet what it says it does, if it's safe. 168 00:11:22,276 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 2: I mean, there are lots of things that we and 169 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:28,116 Speaker 2: as I said earlier, that is it proven enough that 170 00:11:28,276 --> 00:11:31,396 Speaker 2: infrastructure capital can apply, which is just. 171 00:11:31,316 --> 00:11:34,636 Speaker 1: As most sort of conservative, cautious capital or they want 172 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:36,556 Speaker 1: to make sure not just that it works, but that'll 173 00:11:36,596 --> 00:11:39,036 Speaker 1: work every day for thirty years. 174 00:11:39,756 --> 00:11:43,316 Speaker 2: That's right. And of course we saw the solar industry 175 00:11:43,356 --> 00:11:48,556 Speaker 2: as each technology became bankable, enormous explosion and growth as 176 00:11:49,156 --> 00:11:53,916 Speaker 2: financial engineers joined you know, manufacturing engineers and built an 177 00:11:53,916 --> 00:11:56,876 Speaker 2: industry that meets everybody's you know. And that is the 178 00:11:56,956 --> 00:12:02,276 Speaker 2: opportunity we have right now, this new class of supplying 179 00:12:02,356 --> 00:12:06,076 Speaker 2: the energy for industrial heat. If you just do a 180 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:09,916 Speaker 2: units conversion, it's about seven thousand gigawatts. It's many times 181 00:12:10,036 --> 00:12:14,556 Speaker 2: more renewables that exist in the world today that will 182 00:12:14,596 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 2: be needed in this new market segment. And grid researchers, 183 00:12:19,836 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 2: notably Jesse Jenkins at Princeton, have identified that when these 184 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:27,716 Speaker 2: technologies are connected to the grid, they help the grid, 185 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:31,156 Speaker 2: they make it more robust, they help more renewables connect 186 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:36,036 Speaker 2: because it's a new special class of load. So there's 187 00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:37,556 Speaker 2: a virtuous cycle. 188 00:12:38,356 --> 00:12:41,036 Speaker 1: Well, and it's optimized to want to use energy at 189 00:12:41,076 --> 00:12:43,316 Speaker 1: a time when there's too much energy, right, Like, that's 190 00:12:43,356 --> 00:12:44,916 Speaker 1: the whole point, right. 191 00:12:45,316 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 2: And in order for that to really work, because lots 192 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 2: of people say they're going to do that, but in 193 00:12:49,636 --> 00:12:51,556 Speaker 2: order for that to really work, you really have to 194 00:12:51,596 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 2: be something that can take energy only a few hours 195 00:12:54,836 --> 00:12:57,716 Speaker 2: a day. You have to be able to operate at 196 00:12:57,876 --> 00:13:02,796 Speaker 2: low capacity factor to have a low cost per kilo loot. 197 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:06,636 Speaker 2: And I think, as I think I mentioned, the technology 198 00:13:06,676 --> 00:13:10,236 Speaker 2: we use for capturing electricity is the same one that 199 00:13:10,356 --> 00:13:13,676 Speaker 2: is in your toaster. It is literally a hot wire 200 00:13:14,236 --> 00:13:17,396 Speaker 2: and it is difficult to get cheaper than a hot wire. 201 00:13:17,676 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 2: So the bricks, Yeah, these play a unique role in 202 00:13:21,996 --> 00:13:25,676 Speaker 2: being kind of a bottom feeder that's taking electricity that 203 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:33,476 Speaker 2: nobody else wants. That as a result, eliminating curtailment, making 204 00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:37,636 Speaker 2: renewables that are serving the grid more profitable because they 205 00:13:37,636 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 2: can sell all their energy. This new kind of load 206 00:13:41,956 --> 00:13:44,636 Speaker 2: is going to transform the grids it's connected to. 207 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:47,996 Speaker 1: So curtailment is like turning off solar panels in the 208 00:13:47,996 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: middle of the day because there's not enough demand. Basically, 209 00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:51,476 Speaker 1: that's what curtailment is. 210 00:13:51,756 --> 00:13:55,556 Speaker 2: Yes, England threw away fifty five percent of the wind 211 00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:58,316 Speaker 2: power available at the Scotland border last year. 212 00:13:58,476 --> 00:14:00,396 Speaker 1: You got to put some bricks over there, man, You 213 00:14:00,476 --> 00:14:04,636 Speaker 1: got to put some hot bricks on the Scotland border. Yeah, 214 00:14:04,876 --> 00:14:09,556 Speaker 1: so tell me about the pilot plant that you have, right, 215 00:14:09,636 --> 00:14:12,196 Speaker 1: that's you have built a pilot plant, is that correct. 216 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:18,116 Speaker 2: Yeah. We built a first small unit for a customer 217 00:14:18,156 --> 00:14:23,036 Speaker 2: who is an innovator in producing low carbon biofuels. The 218 00:14:23,076 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 2: goal is a couple of large units that eliminate all 219 00:14:26,716 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 2: the combustion at the refinery, and they said show us. 220 00:14:32,236 --> 00:14:36,516 Speaker 2: We were keen to work with them in the longer term, 221 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 2: and we were also on a journey. We were preparing 222 00:14:40,636 --> 00:14:44,756 Speaker 2: to build a first commercial unit for another customer that 223 00:14:45,036 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 2: holds one hundred magawatt hours. We had built things in 224 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 2: the lab that hold two hundred kilowat hours, and that's 225 00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:55,436 Speaker 2: too big a step. 226 00:14:56,156 --> 00:15:00,156 Speaker 1: Right, That's like about a thousandfold leap of five hundredfold. 227 00:14:59,796 --> 00:15:03,556 Speaker 2: Only five hundred, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so let's build something 228 00:15:03,716 --> 00:15:07,676 Speaker 2: in between. And in particular, the work that we had 229 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 2: been doing in the lab, we had recognized, Okay, we 230 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:14,836 Speaker 2: have the geometry, we have the materials, but we aren't 231 00:15:15,276 --> 00:15:17,556 Speaker 2: making the thing the way that it's going to be 232 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:21,156 Speaker 2: easy to construct. We want to make the core a 233 00:15:21,236 --> 00:15:25,076 Speaker 2: different way and we want to actually test build something 234 00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 2: of the full commercial implementation before we go to build 235 00:15:29,396 --> 00:15:33,076 Speaker 2: a big one, and that was the genesis that said, 236 00:15:33,236 --> 00:15:36,556 Speaker 2: why we want to do this project, and they over 237 00:15:36,596 --> 00:15:39,076 Speaker 2: the last year and a half a little more than that. 238 00:15:39,196 --> 00:15:43,716 Speaker 2: Now we've learned a ton from operating there, from going 239 00:15:43,836 --> 00:15:49,956 Speaker 2: through catastrophic rainstorms that flooded the site and flooded the substation, 240 00:15:50,196 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 2: and you know, a variety of things that were unpredictable 241 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:56,236 Speaker 2: that have been valuable learning experiences as well. 242 00:15:57,276 --> 00:15:59,076 Speaker 1: So what's it? Just what's it look like? 243 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:05,076 Speaker 2: This thing is a It's a box that contains ten 244 00:16:05,236 --> 00:16:10,356 Speaker 2: tons of brick, storing two megawatt hours of energy. Each 245 00:16:10,516 --> 00:16:15,396 Speaker 2: brick is about a one meter cube in terms of 246 00:16:15,436 --> 00:16:20,596 Speaker 2: its size. That has open chambers that in which light 247 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 2: moves heat around, and fine slots in the brick through 248 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 2: which air passages. It's a complicated looking object, but it's 249 00:16:30,556 --> 00:16:32,756 Speaker 2: about a meter cube and it weighs about a ton. 250 00:16:33,716 --> 00:16:35,316 Speaker 2: So I'm sorry about half a ton. 251 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:41,156 Speaker 1: Yeah, each each brick, you're saying, each brick. 252 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:45,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, A single a single brick. 253 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 3: Yeah. 254 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:49,196 Speaker 2: So the part of the journey was learning how to 255 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 2: make big ones so that the assembly at sight would 256 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:57,636 Speaker 2: be very quick. Inside that structure of brick are electrical 257 00:16:57,676 --> 00:17:02,396 Speaker 2: heaters that are passing through passages. Inside that brick array, 258 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:06,156 Speaker 2: it's surrounded by an insulated box which is surrounded by 259 00:17:06,196 --> 00:17:08,836 Speaker 2: an insulated kind of shed, and it looks like a 260 00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 2: small all industrial building on the outside. It's got water 261 00:17:13,636 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 2: pipes and steam pipes on one side and an electrical 262 00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:17,116 Speaker 2: connection at the other. 263 00:17:20,436 --> 00:17:23,476 Speaker 1: In a minute, John talks about building plants around the 264 00:17:23,516 --> 00:17:40,996 Speaker 1: world right now. So you have this pilot plant, it's running. 265 00:17:41,796 --> 00:17:45,076 Speaker 1: What are you worried about? What are you still trying 266 00:17:45,076 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 1: to figure out? 267 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 2: Well, today we are in contract and in construction in 268 00:17:52,156 --> 00:18:01,676 Speaker 2: on two, three, four, five countries on projects making cement, polyester, whiskey, beer, polycarbonate, plastic, 269 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:07,556 Speaker 2: and biofuels. We are struggling to grow the company rapidly. 270 00:18:07,596 --> 00:18:10,836 Speaker 2: We're about one hundred and fifty people in seven countries 271 00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:17,996 Speaker 2: right now, establishing construction relationships with you know, construction companies 272 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:21,636 Speaker 2: for in all of those five countries. There are plenty 273 00:18:21,636 --> 00:18:25,556 Speaker 2: of things at this point of you know, stretching at 274 00:18:25,596 --> 00:18:30,716 Speaker 2: the seams. We've just only just a few months ago 275 00:18:30,756 --> 00:18:36,596 Speaker 2: concluded establishment of a European subsidiary with financing from the 276 00:18:36,676 --> 00:18:42,436 Speaker 2: European Investment Bank and Breakthrough Energies Project finance team that 277 00:18:42,516 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 2: have created an enormous financial, engineering capability and legal capability 278 00:18:48,276 --> 00:18:50,516 Speaker 2: inside our company that almost killed us. 279 00:18:51,876 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 1: We uh that bricks are easy finance and legal. 280 00:18:57,796 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it depends on where you are, but at 281 00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:02,756 Speaker 2: the moment, yes, that's right, because it was about a 282 00:19:02,836 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 2: year ago that we established a giant manufacturing capacity with 283 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:12,116 Speaker 2: one of our early investors, who is a diversified producer 284 00:19:12,156 --> 00:19:16,316 Speaker 2: of many things, including this refractory brick, doing business in 285 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:21,876 Speaker 2: sixty countries. So part of it has been establishing proving 286 00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:26,836 Speaker 2: the initial that the thing works, then establishing manufacturing capacity, 287 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:32,156 Speaker 2: establishing delivery capacity, the ability of finance projects. There's more 288 00:19:32,196 --> 00:19:34,996 Speaker 2: than one answer to your question depending on what perspective 289 00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:38,396 Speaker 2: that you look, and right now we're engaged in all 290 00:19:38,436 --> 00:19:38,716 Speaker 2: of them. 291 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:42,356 Speaker 1: So it's execution risk. If I were to reduce what 292 00:19:42,356 --> 00:19:44,276 Speaker 1: you're saying, it's like you figured out how to do 293 00:19:44,316 --> 00:19:46,916 Speaker 1: the thing, but doing it is hard, doing it in 294 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:54,836 Speaker 1: five countries, and I mean presumably also like the thing, 295 00:19:55,036 --> 00:19:57,316 Speaker 1: like you have to spend a lot of money now 296 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:00,716 Speaker 1: in order to get sort of steady returns over twenty years. Right, 297 00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 1: that's your model. You're building these things and then you're 298 00:20:03,196 --> 00:20:05,076 Speaker 1: selling the heat over the life of the thing is 299 00:20:05,076 --> 00:20:07,196 Speaker 1: that the way it works for. 300 00:20:07,196 --> 00:20:09,596 Speaker 2: About half of our projects, that is the way it works. 301 00:20:09,676 --> 00:20:09,796 Speaker 5: OK. 302 00:20:09,996 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 2: But you're right, we're spending a lot of money now 303 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 2: and part of what we're doing, of course, these early 304 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:19,596 Speaker 2: projects are proving the technology in that place, in that 305 00:20:19,716 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 2: application with that construction partner. So we're setting the grounds 306 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 2: for hypergrowth and establishing that bankability criterion that I mentioned earlier. 307 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:32,196 Speaker 2: And it takes a lot of work to get the 308 00:20:32,236 --> 00:20:34,956 Speaker 2: first one done. But if we've done that right with 309 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 2: that partner in that country, you know we will step 310 00:20:38,476 --> 00:20:41,996 Speaker 2: and repeat. And there are these giant markets where we 311 00:20:42,036 --> 00:20:44,556 Speaker 2: are in the money and there are a lot of 312 00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:47,396 Speaker 2: people who want to be customer number two or three. 313 00:20:48,036 --> 00:20:51,956 Speaker 2: But to your point, for some of our projects, we 314 00:20:52,236 --> 00:20:56,716 Speaker 2: are a technology provider where we are building something and 315 00:20:56,796 --> 00:20:59,796 Speaker 2: turning the keys over to the customer, and in others 316 00:21:00,196 --> 00:21:03,676 Speaker 2: we are the owner operator and we are selling energy services, 317 00:21:03,796 --> 00:21:05,156 Speaker 2: not energy equipment. 318 00:21:05,756 --> 00:21:08,836 Speaker 1: Basically, you own the bricks or they own the bricks. 319 00:21:08,876 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 1: I mean, are those the two models you're describing. 320 00:21:11,316 --> 00:21:14,396 Speaker 2: More or less? Yeah, So there are several ways that 321 00:21:15,036 --> 00:21:18,436 Speaker 2: customers will bring these things in and in some cases 322 00:21:18,436 --> 00:21:21,956 Speaker 2: it's because look, the heat battery is in the middle 323 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:26,996 Speaker 2: of their petrochemical complex. They want to own everything in 324 00:21:27,116 --> 00:21:32,036 Speaker 2: that square mile factory facility. In other cases, no, we're 325 00:21:32,036 --> 00:21:35,356 Speaker 2: going to establish something that's right next door and sell 326 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:39,556 Speaker 2: steam over the fence. That's just the nature of this business. 327 00:21:39,596 --> 00:21:43,196 Speaker 2: And we're standing ourselves up to do business the way 328 00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:44,556 Speaker 2: that the market needs us to. 329 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:48,836 Speaker 1: You use the phrase in the money. Does that mean 330 00:21:49,316 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: it's cheaper for them to buy heat from you than 331 00:21:53,156 --> 00:21:56,276 Speaker 1: to use fossil fuel to generate heat? Is that what 332 00:21:56,356 --> 00:21:57,676 Speaker 1: in the money means in that context? 333 00:21:57,756 --> 00:22:01,556 Speaker 2: Yes, that's true every single project, and that is yes exactly. 334 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,676 Speaker 1: Is regulation a problem for you at all? Is it 335 00:22:05,676 --> 00:22:07,836 Speaker 1: a benefit to you? Like, how does regulation fit with 336 00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:08,756 Speaker 1: your business? 337 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:12,956 Speaker 2: We're using a new fuel, We're using electricity in a 338 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:18,116 Speaker 2: fundamentally new way, right, and the rules that the world 339 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:24,316 Speaker 2: has around electricity networks need update, you know. And we 340 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 2: hear an awful lot about the challenges of connecting renewable 341 00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:34,956 Speaker 2: generation to electricity grids and the delays, and you know, 342 00:22:35,036 --> 00:22:39,276 Speaker 2: the sort of structural conflict between we want a least 343 00:22:39,316 --> 00:22:43,476 Speaker 2: cost electricity network, but we need one that operates with 344 00:22:43,596 --> 00:22:47,636 Speaker 2: these fundamentally new sources of generation. What's gone on so 345 00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:51,396 Speaker 2: far with lithium ion batteries in particular, has begun to 346 00:22:51,476 --> 00:22:55,676 Speaker 2: address the matter of how do we connect these intermittent loads, 347 00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 2: how do we connect loads that benefit the electricity grid? 348 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 2: And this matter is a very big deal country by country. 349 00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:06,876 Speaker 2: Netherlands just made a rules change, Denmark made a rules 350 00:23:06,996 --> 00:23:10,556 Speaker 2: change in April last year. We had a project contracted 351 00:23:10,556 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 2: in October. Germany and England have just made rules changes. 352 00:23:15,996 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 2: In some places, the rules like in Urkat in Texas 353 00:23:19,076 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 2: already work. I'm speaking to you from California, where decarbonization 354 00:23:23,956 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 2: is both mandatory and forbidden. The grid rules in California 355 00:23:28,556 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 2: make it impossible to connect projects like ours, and we're 356 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,636 Speaker 2: building our next California project with no connection at all 357 00:23:36,916 --> 00:23:38,916 Speaker 2: at all to the electricity grid. 358 00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: For that reason, basically just because they wouldn't let you 359 00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:42,356 Speaker 1: if you wanted to. 360 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 2: Well, and it was going to take seven years to 361 00:23:44,276 --> 00:23:47,676 Speaker 2: get a connection, and the price would the price of 362 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 2: the grid service alone exceeds the cost of fuel, so 363 00:23:51,916 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 2: that even if the solar energy were free, the economics 364 00:23:56,836 --> 00:24:01,076 Speaker 2: could not work. So yeah, there are places where the 365 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:05,076 Speaker 2: rules matter, and it is mostly a matter of sort 366 00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:10,996 Speaker 2: of modernizing the rules to sort of deal with today's 367 00:24:11,036 --> 00:24:15,756 Speaker 2: these fundamentally new technologies that were not conceived when today's 368 00:24:15,836 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 2: rules were established. Steve chu who was Obama's Energy secretary 369 00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:23,756 Speaker 2: after he won the Nobel Prize, you know, he used 370 00:24:23,756 --> 00:24:26,196 Speaker 2: to go around giving a talk saying, the United States 371 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 2: does electricity today the way we did roads in nineteen 372 00:24:29,316 --> 00:24:35,036 Speaker 2: thirty nine. And he's right about interstate transmission and all 373 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:39,636 Speaker 2: sorts of things. But these things are being worked at 374 00:24:39,676 --> 00:24:43,396 Speaker 2: the same time as our technology and others are coming 375 00:24:43,516 --> 00:24:47,116 Speaker 2: to the fore. Because look, five ten years from now, 376 00:24:47,236 --> 00:24:51,316 Speaker 2: I think it'll be widely understood that all of industry 377 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:56,356 Speaker 2: is going to be repowered on electricity, electrify everything is 378 00:24:56,476 --> 00:25:00,356 Speaker 2: the way we make this transition to a lower cost 379 00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:06,036 Speaker 2: world that is zero emission. And I'm very encouraged that 380 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:10,076 Speaker 2: that process is underway and a bunch of places, and 381 00:25:10,196 --> 00:25:12,476 Speaker 2: there are different pieces to get out of the way 382 00:25:12,516 --> 00:25:17,916 Speaker 2: and to enable that transition on that journey, and I'm 383 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 2: delighted that, you know, there are other folks building heat 384 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:24,036 Speaker 2: batteries and heat pumps and electoralizers and all sorts of 385 00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 2: things that collection, as well as electrochemical batteries that collection. 386 00:25:29,636 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 2: Those technologies, the winners will find their way to scale, 387 00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:38,876 Speaker 2: but these regulatory matters need to be adjusted for any 388 00:25:38,956 --> 00:25:40,716 Speaker 2: of them to deploy. 389 00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:45,276 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lighting ground. 390 00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:01,156 Speaker 1: Are tandem bicycles overrated or underrated? 391 00:26:02,196 --> 00:26:05,356 Speaker 2: I have three in my backyard. Tandem bicycles are fantastic. 392 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:10,516 Speaker 1: Why has the world not come to their bicycles? What 393 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:12,356 Speaker 1: do you know that nobody else knows. 394 00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 2: Most of my rides have been with my kids, especially 395 00:26:17,116 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 2: when my kids were younger. It was a way of 396 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:22,756 Speaker 2: doing centuries when you know they weren't willing to ride 397 00:26:22,796 --> 00:26:23,476 Speaker 2: love liscences. 398 00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:25,996 Speaker 1: You peddled one hundred miles and they coasted. 399 00:26:27,676 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 2: It wasn't like that, but there were allegations of that 400 00:26:30,196 --> 00:26:35,956 Speaker 2: at different times. Who sat him back? My kids? But 401 00:26:36,516 --> 00:26:39,076 Speaker 2: you know, my wife isn't as excited about tandem bicycles 402 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:41,516 Speaker 2: as I am, so I understand there's a diversity of 403 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:45,916 Speaker 2: opinions on this topic. I've read that. 404 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 1: You're also a pilot, and I saw a quote from 405 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:52,356 Speaker 1: someone who once flew with you, and they called flying 406 00:26:52,396 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 1: with you. You know what I'm going to say. They 407 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:57,556 Speaker 1: called it one of the scariest and most exhilarating flights 408 00:26:57,596 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 1: I've ever had. And I just want to give you 409 00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 1: a chance a comment on that. 410 00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 5: Yeah, we were on our way to a particular site 411 00:27:05,756 --> 00:27:08,196 Speaker 5: where to a meeting where we're going to go testify 412 00:27:08,276 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 5: against the construction action of a coal plant in a 413 00:27:11,196 --> 00:27:14,196 Speaker 5: particular spot, and we chose a route that went fairly 414 00:27:14,236 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 5: close to a peak on our way there in Nevada. 415 00:27:17,596 --> 00:27:20,996 Speaker 1: And because it was a straight line, you were just like, well, 416 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:21,876 Speaker 1: let's go on a street. 417 00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 2: Were just level. We were, I don't know, a mile away, 418 00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:28,996 Speaker 2: but we were level with the peak. And he liked that, 419 00:27:29,196 --> 00:27:31,516 Speaker 2: or he both got excited and terrified. 420 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:32,156 Speaker 3: Yeah. 421 00:27:32,356 --> 00:27:38,356 Speaker 1: So you worked on nuclear fusion long ago and people 422 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,316 Speaker 1: are still working on nuclear fusion. Do you think it'll 423 00:27:41,356 --> 00:27:46,636 Speaker 1: ever work in a meaningful way? You think the economics 424 00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:48,876 Speaker 1: of it will ever make sense? Even if we figure 425 00:27:48,876 --> 00:27:49,516 Speaker 1: out the science. 426 00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:52,876 Speaker 2: There are people who know much more about it than 427 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 2: I do. That you should ask that question. I was 428 00:27:54,996 --> 00:28:02,436 Speaker 2: building computer systems for the instrumentation group. But every problem 429 00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:10,116 Speaker 2: that existed, every single one of the horrific material science challenges, whatevers. 430 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 2: There are very smart folks working on those things. But 431 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:16,476 Speaker 2: you ask the right question, is there a chance that 432 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:21,116 Speaker 2: it will be economical? Given what's going on in energy storage? 433 00:28:21,356 --> 00:28:25,556 Speaker 2: Right that the world has consistently underpredicted how fast that 434 00:28:25,596 --> 00:28:29,836 Speaker 2: would come down in cost. That we have consistently underpredicted 435 00:28:29,916 --> 00:28:33,156 Speaker 2: how fast wind and solar come down in cost. It's 436 00:28:33,236 --> 00:28:38,276 Speaker 2: very difficult to see how fusion will compete with free 437 00:28:39,196 --> 00:28:42,556 Speaker 2: and of course baseload technologies that can deliver us energy 438 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:45,876 Speaker 2: all the time are super attractive, but you have to 439 00:28:45,876 --> 00:28:48,876 Speaker 2: look at the whole system. And again there are people 440 00:28:48,876 --> 00:28:50,436 Speaker 2: who know much more about that than I do. 441 00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:55,036 Speaker 1: What's one thing about energy at any level could be 442 00:28:55,076 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: on the level of basic physics or not that you 443 00:28:57,796 --> 00:29:00,596 Speaker 1: wish everybody knew. 444 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:05,796 Speaker 2: We can have this energy transition that we talk about 445 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:12,076 Speaker 2: right now, and it is the greatest business opportunity of 446 00:29:12,396 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 2: our lifetime, and we have the technologies to do about 447 00:29:20,316 --> 00:29:23,356 Speaker 2: eighty percent of what we need to do, and the 448 00:29:23,396 --> 00:29:27,996 Speaker 2: technologies basically are at hand. You know, we have the 449 00:29:28,036 --> 00:29:32,236 Speaker 2: tools to drive through this transition. And ten and twenty 450 00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:35,956 Speaker 2: years ago, there was this belief that the green transition, 451 00:29:36,236 --> 00:29:38,916 Speaker 2: for example, the energy transition, was going to make us 452 00:29:38,996 --> 00:29:41,636 Speaker 2: all poorer, that it was going to be a burden 453 00:29:41,716 --> 00:29:44,436 Speaker 2: to those in developing countries, that it was going to 454 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:48,236 Speaker 2: you know, take away wealth. And we are now at 455 00:29:48,236 --> 00:29:52,436 Speaker 2: this moment where the thing I wish people knew was that, look, 456 00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:58,276 Speaker 2: these technologies are cheaper and we can go faster, and 457 00:29:58,316 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 2: there are spectacular opportunities to drive change and go faster 458 00:30:04,436 --> 00:30:08,236 Speaker 2: than the world needs to to achieve Paris and a 459 00:30:08,356 --> 00:30:12,356 Speaker 2: safer client And most people don't know that. There is 460 00:30:12,396 --> 00:30:16,276 Speaker 2: a sense I hear often kind of a sense of hopelessness. 461 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:18,356 Speaker 2: There's nothing we can do. It's going to take longer 462 00:30:18,396 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 2: than we want. And it's like, guys, we just put 463 00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,716 Speaker 2: our heads together. We have the tools to do this. 464 00:30:26,116 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 2: It's profitable to do this. Let's get to it. 465 00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:40,796 Speaker 1: John O'Donnell is the co founder of Rondo Energy. Next 466 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:44,716 Speaker 1: week i'll talk with Raffi Garabedian, co founder of Electric Hydrogen. 467 00:30:45,276 --> 00:30:48,476 Speaker 1: Raffi's company has raised hundreds of millions of dollars and 468 00:30:48,516 --> 00:30:51,476 Speaker 1: it's trying to turn all of that cheap intermittent energy 469 00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 1: from solar and wind power into hydrogen. That hydrogen could 470 00:30:55,916 --> 00:30:59,796 Speaker 1: be used for everything from making fertilizer to powering container ships. 471 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,476 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was 472 00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:10,196 Speaker 1: edited by Lydia gene Kott and engineer by Sarah Bruguer. 473 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:14,036 Speaker 1: You can email us at Problem at Pushkin dot Fm, 474 00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:16,716 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Bothstein and we'll be back next week with 475 00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:26,356 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem.