1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Adding and Samantha. I'm welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: I've never told you a protection of I heart radios 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: how stuff works. For today's classic episode, we wanted to 4 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: bring back one Christen and Caroline did on Polly Murray, 5 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: who is one of my absolute favorite historical people. I 6 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 1: remember when I learned about her, I was angry. I 7 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: hadn't known about her, right right, She's a literal saint. 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: She's amazing. She did so much. She was one of 9 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: the first real women to talk about intersectionality in a way, 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: in almost a legal way that we hadn't been doing before. 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: So hugely important into feminism and a lot of the 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: things that we talked about on this very show. And 13 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: kind of I guess not kind of like a coincidence, 14 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: but we have an upcoming episode with the creators of 15 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: unladylike also the people whose voices you'll hear in this 16 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: here'sening Caroline, uh, and they bought up Polly Murray, and 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, hey, perfect timing, perfect timing, So 18 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: to get you already for that upcoming episode and to 19 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: just learn more about this amazing person, here's a classic 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: episode on Polly Murray. Welcome to Stuff. Mob never told you. 21 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: From how stupp Works dot Com. Hello and welcome to 22 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I'm 23 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: so excited to talk about the woman we're going to 24 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: talk about today. Me too. She has been on my 25 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: mind all week, ever since we started reading about her. 26 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: I can't get her out of my head. That just 27 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: made me start thinking of that Kylie Minogue song. But yes, 28 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: you're right, I know I can't stop thinking about her either. 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: And Polly Murray, who is this incredible trail blazer. But 30 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: what's so fascinating and heartbreaking and impressive all at the 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: same time about her story is that she managed to 32 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: accomplish so much in in a single lifetime and push 33 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: against standards and norms of her day. But she did 34 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: it all from this almost personal place, this drive that 35 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: comes from how she was raised, the environment she grew 36 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: up in, and the discrimination that she herself faced. Yeah, 37 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: and I first ran across her name probably a few 38 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: years ago now, where she was simply cited as the 39 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 1: first African American episcopal priest. And when I saw the 40 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,519 Speaker 1: photo in the caption, and I thought, oh, that seems 41 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: really neat okay, And then sort of put her out 42 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: of my mind, and then much more recently ran across 43 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: an article talking about this entire life that she had 44 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: before she entered the episcopal priesthood. And while her story 45 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: doesn't begin in nineteen one, I feel like that's a 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: good place for us to sort of kick off our 47 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: conversation about her and her life and her significance because 48 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: she has a very close, uh legal history bond to 49 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: one of our faith's Ruth bader Ginsburg. Yeah, and this 50 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: is an excellent example of a woman paying tribute and 51 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: giving credit to one of her predecessors, not just taking 52 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: this woman's ideas and using them as her own, but 53 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: really giving credit where credits due. So well in the 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: story also highlights to the disparity between and Polly Murray's 55 00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: forgotten legacy and the n understandable notoriety of Ruth bader Ginsburg, 56 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: partially due to her, you know, being a Supreme Court justice. 57 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: But in nineteen seventy one, Ruth bader Ginsburg argues on 58 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: behalf of the A c l U, a landmark equal 59 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: protection case. Read the read and the quick background of 60 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: this case was that, uh, this couple that really wasn't 61 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: together anymore. I think they were estranged. Their adopted son died, 62 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: and the father, according to an Idaho state statute maintaining 63 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: that males must be preferred to females as administrators of 64 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: the states, was automatically granted their deceased son's estate. But 65 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: Mrs Reid in this case um wanted rights to the estate, 66 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: and so they brought this equal protection case UM that 67 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: ended up going all the way to the Supreme Court. 68 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: And it was the very first time that the Fourteenth 69 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: Amendment equal protection clause had been used to argue gender 70 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: discrimination as unconstitutional as opposed to racial discrimination. And so 71 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: this whole case set a legal precedent against gender discrimination 72 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: purely out of administrative convenience. So in this Idaho case, 73 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: just being like, you know what, We're just going to 74 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: give it to the dudes. They can have the rights, 75 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: and we just don't even have to worry about this right. 76 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 1: And Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who at the time was an 77 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: a c l U volunteer attorney, in her legal brief, 78 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: named two co authors who actually didn't play a direct 79 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: role in the case, and those were Judge Dorothy Kenyon 80 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and the topic of today's episode and Polly Murray, who's 81 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: Jane Crow, and the law legal theory in the nineteen 82 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: sixties pioneered this whole idea of the equal Protection Clause 83 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: applying to sex discrimination in the same way as raised 84 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: discrimination them And so Murray's entire motivation for Jane Crow, 85 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: which will get into more, is the idea that it 86 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: would not only protect black women hence the Jane Crow 87 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 1: that is, the you know, feminized version of Jim Crow, 88 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,720 Speaker 1: but lift everybody up by bridging the gap between civil 89 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: rights and the women's movement. And if that sounds a 90 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: lot like intersectionality, it is, I mean in so many ways, 91 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: and Polly Murray is the godmother of intersectionality. And also 92 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: if this sounds a lot like Ruth Bader Ginsburg paying 93 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: symbolic homage to amazing women, which other guys who had 94 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: relied on that legal theory of Murray's as well in 95 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: the past did not do, um, it totally is. And 96 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: it just makes me love Notorious RBG even more. Yeah, well, 97 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: so we need to now dive into Polly's story. Yeah, 98 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: her name is Anne Paulina Murray, but she opted to 99 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 1: go by the name Police. So let's dive into her 100 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: complex and multifaceted past. So to kick things off, why 101 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: don't we reference her own description of herself, which kind 102 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: of gets at the internal struggles that drove her public work. So, 103 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: for instance, in a nineteen sixty seven letter to the 104 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: National Organization of Women, she wrote, I hold the status 105 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: of multiple minorities. I can't allow myself to be fragmented 106 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: into negro at one time, woman at another, or worker 107 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: at another. I must find a unifying principle in all 108 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: of these movements to which I can adhere. So from 109 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: that we can hear that struggle that she really wrestled 110 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: with her entire life between all of these identities and 111 00:07:54,400 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: intersections that she embodied. She's African American, she's a woman, 112 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: she's a gender questioning person who is attracted to women. 113 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: Um she has experiences in poverty and income instability. Um so. 114 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: And she even in her younger years, she gave names 115 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: to her various identities of sorts. Yeah, she had the crusader, 116 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: the imp, and the dude, not to mention the priest, 117 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: which is an identity that came later. But I mean, also, 118 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: this is a woman who's an incredible legal scholar. She's 119 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: a feminist, a poet, a workers rights activist, which her 120 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: political leanings and her work for labor rights actually tripped 121 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: her up politically later in her life a little bit. 122 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,439 Speaker 1: And of course, you know the whole priest thing. She 123 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: became an episcopal saint in she's a saint. She's a saint. 124 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: The more I've found out about her, the more astonished 125 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: and kind of upset I got that I was only 126 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: just now learning about her, right, And I mean that's 127 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: in a lot of the that sentiment is in a 128 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: lot of the articles that you will read about Polly 129 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: these days, because there is this attitude of like, where 130 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: have you been my whole life? And she's always been there. 131 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: She always was there, but her legacy has for so 132 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: long just been buried and kind of forgotten. And so 133 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: it's it's now that we're starting to see more attention 134 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: paid to just how important she is to this country's 135 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: legal history. Well, and I think that we are starting 136 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: to recognize her more because our society has finally caught 137 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: up to r caught up to her exactly. Yeah, I mean, 138 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: but in the meantime, while she was alive, she was 139 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 1: trailblazing left and right. I mean, st hood aside, she 140 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 1: was the first woman of color to serve as California's 141 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: Deputy attorney general. She was the first African American to 142 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:59,199 Speaker 1: earn a doctorate from Yale, and the first black female 143 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: episcopal priest. So, I mean, we just talked about how 144 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: she's been sort of sidelined from history, and that question 145 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: of why comes up a lot in any kind of 146 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: scholarly writing about her, and clearly, as we'll explain more, 147 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: there is the issue of society just you know, being 148 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: too slow. I mean, she was a woman in so 149 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: many ways ahead of her time, but it was also 150 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: because she wasn't satisfied with only fighting for civil rights 151 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: or women's rights or labor rights. She wanted to bridge 152 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: all of the gaps. Yeah, well, she wanted to bridge 153 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: all of the gaps because they were all aspects of her. 154 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: I mean, she, like Kristen has said, really struggled early 155 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: on with bits and pieces of her identity which society 156 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: was telling her either weren't right or they were at 157 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: odds with each other. You know, she wrote in her autobiography, 158 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: in a world of black white opposites, I had no 159 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: place being neither very dark were very fair. I was 160 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: a nobody without identity, So let's look at her childhood. 161 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: She was born in nineteen ten in Baltimore as Anna Paulina. 162 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: She was the fourth of six children to mother Agnes 163 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: Fitzgerald and father William Murray, but she was orphaned very early. 164 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: Her mom died when she was four, and at twelve, 165 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,840 Speaker 1: her father was actually murdered by a guard at the 166 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: Crownsville State Hospital where he was a patient undergoing treatment 167 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: for major depression. Now, after her mother died when she 168 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: was four, she was sent from Baltimore to Durham, North Carolina, 169 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: where she was raised largely by her maternal grandparents, who 170 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: encouraged her to be as educated and as exemplary as 171 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: possible for both racial and familial uplift. I mean, this 172 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: is a family of middle class African Americans living in 173 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: the Jim Crow South um. So that's where the idea 174 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: and the need for that racial uplift comes from. And 175 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: in terms of familial uplift, her maternal grandmother, who was 176 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: helping raise her Cornelia, was born a slave, and Cornelia's 177 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: mother was also a slave who was raped by her 178 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: white slave owner. So her grandmother was actually raised by 179 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: both her paternal aunt and owner, right, And so that 180 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: side of the family tree is something that Polly really 181 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: struggles with in her autobiography, where she talks a lot 182 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: about the genealogical process of going back through a family 183 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: history and how it puts so much of herself and 184 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: her family into the context of the time. She really 185 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: had to come face to face with those ugly facts 186 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: that she talks about how a lot of African American 187 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: families at the time weren't willing or ready or very 188 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: eager to sort of dive back into that's that's an 189 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,080 Speaker 1: open wound, it's a lot of pain. And so she 190 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: talks about how she had to come face to face 191 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: to that with that because just as she had been 192 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: so proud and ready to accept the branch of the 193 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: family tree that were freedman her, one of her grandfather's, 194 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: for instance, was emancipated and then fought for the union. Yeah, 195 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: and she had a really strong attachment to her grandparents um, 196 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: but tragically, again it was like she was orphaned a 197 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: second time because both of her grandparents died by the 198 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: time she was thirteen, and she kind of considered that 199 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: the end of her childhood. I mean, Polly grew up 200 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: very fast. It seems like, well, she went to live 201 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: with her aunt, who was her namesake. And this is 202 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: the aunt who she credits so much. Yes, she found 203 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: so much inspiration in her all of her grandparents and 204 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: great grandparents, but it was her aunt who she says, 205 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: really encouraged her to be herself and be sort of 206 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 1: fulfill her destinies. The amazing child that she was. Yeah, 207 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: in the first step along the way to fulfilling her destiny, 208 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: and she really did have a sense of destiny, was 209 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: attending Hunter College. So she heads up to New York 210 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: in nine and she graduates in nineteen thirty three, and 211 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: college is incredibly difficult for her financially. I mean, she's 212 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: struggling to make ends meet to the point that she 213 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: suffers malnutrition and like the illness that she encounters during 214 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: college because she's so poor and can't feed herself very well. 215 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of haunts her for the rest 216 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: of her life. It leaves her rather frail, although you 217 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: would not know it by the legacy that she leaves 218 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: behind um. But after graduation, she finally finds some teaching 219 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: work with the Works Progress Administration and as an activist 220 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: for the Workers defense league. But it's this whole time 221 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: that she's also questioning both her gender identity and her 222 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: sexual orientation. She re really struggled with feeling like she 223 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: was a man trapped in a woman's body her words, 224 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: but also struggling with this attraction to feminine women. She 225 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: wrote to her doctors saying, I've got to find a solution, 226 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: like I don't know why I feel this attraction, because 227 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: you've also got to keep in mind at the time 228 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: that being gay was considered a psychiatric disorder. Yeah, And 229 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: in a note to her doctor that she wrote in seven, 230 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: she said, why do I desire monogamous married life as 231 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: a completion? Because she's you know, she's struggling with her 232 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: same sex attraction to women, but at the same time, 233 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: because of that desire to succeed professionally but also have 234 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: the quote unquote normal family life was something that was 235 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: also very much ingrained in her and very important to her. 236 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: Clearly a point of personal conflict for her, and I 237 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: think it's important as um. There was one academic we 238 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: were reading who pointed out that while today she might 239 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: have identified as transgender or a lesbian, she never labeled 240 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: herself as such. Um back then. I mean, well, for 241 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: one reason, the term transgender didn't even exist in the 242 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties. Um. But she she knew that something was up, 243 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: and she really wanted a biological explanation for it. UM. 244 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: In her twenties and thirties, she was really enamored with 245 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: new research on hormones and glands and part of why 246 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: she was so compelled. Um and and even at one 247 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: point requested an exploratory surgery to see if she had 248 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: a male genitalia like secreted inside of her. As she 249 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: put it, was because of the specter of mental illness 250 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: within her family. I mean you have, like you mentioned, Caroline, 251 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: at the time, homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder, and 252 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: that was terrifying for her, considering how her dad was 253 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: murdered when he was in a psychiatric hospital, and there 254 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: had been other mental health issues in her family. Yeah, 255 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: and so she did seek both psychiatric and hormonal treatment, 256 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: but doctors refused to give her male hormone, simply telling 257 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: her to conform to female expectations. UM. That doesn't mean 258 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: she didn't experiment. She there's lots of pictures of her, 259 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: and she talks about how she explored gender identity and presentation, 260 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: particularly in her younger years in her twenties and thirties 261 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: by wearing men's clothing. And this is around the time 262 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: when she also opts to start going by the name 263 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: Polly instead of Anne. Yeah. And if we look back 264 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: at her one autobiographical photo album, The Life and Times 265 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: of an American called Polly Murray Um, the image of 266 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: the dude is clearly the uh, the identity within her 267 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: that's questioning gender and what it means and how it 268 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: applies to her, and she in one of the photos 269 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: she has sort of she has men's clothes on and 270 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: a men's style hay do um. But you can see 271 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: as she goes to law school and her legal career 272 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: picks up in her public profile increases, you see her 273 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: dress in more traditionally feminine ways. Yeah, I think there 274 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: there's one picture that we saw of her, was it 275 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: from law school or after? Where it's one of those 276 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,160 Speaker 1: like very old school, you know, from the side kind 277 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: of pictures where she's looking off into the distance and 278 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: the caption on the back of the photo was first 279 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: and last upswept hair do So I mean, I you know, 280 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: she kind of like those doctors when she was in 281 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: her twenties and thirties said, you know, they told her 282 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: to conformed female expectations. I think she did feel like 283 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: she had to for a lot of her early public 284 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: presentation in persona. You know, you you see her exclusively 285 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: in dresses in those early years, especially like in pictures 286 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: where she's with Betty fred Dan in a picture with 287 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: the early founding staff of Now and in law school, 288 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: she's wearing all of those dresses and those hair dues. 289 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: But as you get old, as she gets older, I 290 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: should say, uh, you start to see her, Oh yeah, 291 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: this is the woman who said she prefers pants to dresses. 292 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: Like you start to see hers almost just sort of 293 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: start to look more like herself. Well, And there was 294 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: one anecdote from when she was in the priesthood of 295 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: her being delighted that she would sometimes get mistaken for 296 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: a guy, partly because she had short, cropped hair and 297 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: glasses and she even had rocked a little lady mustache 298 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: in her old age, and obviously, like priestly close, our 299 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: gender ambiguous, and being the first female priests, would kind 300 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: of just expect it to be a guy. But she 301 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I loved it. Yeah. Well, because yeah, 302 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: I mean, like you said, transgender wasn't a term in 303 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: use yet, but I'm sure it must have felt great 304 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 1: for someone to look at you and identify you as 305 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: the way that you. I don't know that I want 306 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: to put words in anyone's mouth, but the way that 307 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: you have felt inside. Yeah, I mean, but I I well. 308 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: And I also think it's interesting that part of her 309 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: concern over how she felt was not just her attraction 310 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: to women and her discomfort in uh with feminine gendered clothing, 311 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: but also she felt like her ambition and drive was 312 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: also highly masculine, in a sign that something wasn't entirely 313 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: right and part of why she wanted to fight for 314 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: women's right because she was like, oh, I can't this 315 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: womanhood is is holding me back. Like I know I'm 316 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: a woman, but I don't feel like I should be 317 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: because of all of this stuff that I want to accomplish. Yeah, 318 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: so many layers to gender identity. Who's surprised, no one? 319 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: No one well, and she carried on though open romantic relationships, 320 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: though with a number of women um and in her 321 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: later life she forged a seventeen year relationship with a 322 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: woman named Irene Barlow, whom she met at a law 323 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: firm in nineteen fifty six and it lasted until Barlow's death, 324 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: and they're buried under the same headstone in New York. Yeah, yeah, 325 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: I think she because I think when Barlow died at 326 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: the time, um, Polly was teaching at brand Ice and 327 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: she ended up leaving her position because she was so 328 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,440 Speaker 1: heartbroken that she felt like I can't I can't go on. 329 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: But then in her posthumously published autobiography Song and a 330 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: Weary Throat, there's no mention whatsoever of same sex relationships. 331 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: So clearly there are lots of intersections happening within this 332 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: one person and in the next phase of her life 333 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: and career. Because we're going to get into this is 334 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: when we see all of her brain power then being 335 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: applied to all of her identities and struggles and how 336 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 1: she applied that to empowering marginalized groups. And we're going 337 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: to get into that when we come right back from 338 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: a quick break. So, if there's one big thing that 339 00:22:54,560 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: poly Murray understood ahead of her time, was now discrimination 340 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: cuts across identities, um and and we might take that 341 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: so for granted today, but that was a revolutionary concept 342 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: not so long ago um and speaking to The Washington 343 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: Post in nineteen seventies seven, Pouli said, this society is 344 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: not hospitable to persons of color, women or left handed people. 345 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: Ain't that the truth? Congerss well listen as a lefty, 346 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: I agree, and so well. I do appreciate her humor. 347 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: That should not indicate that she was anything other than 348 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: deadly serious about the discrimination that she and others around 349 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: her were facing. Uh. In, let's let's just go through 350 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: basically the history of what she overcame that ended up 351 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: contributing to the person that she Well, I want to 352 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: say the person that she became, but I mean, she 353 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: already was this person, She was this fighter. So we've 354 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: got to give this back story though, so you know 355 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: exactly what she went through. She was denied to a 356 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: school admission at UNC Chapel Hill because of her race, 357 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: and she knew this was wrong. She knew this was ridiculous. 358 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: She knew she was up against a discriminatory machine. So 359 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,680 Speaker 1: she launched a letter writing campaign that attracted the attention 360 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:21,200 Speaker 1: and the friendship of one Eleanor Roosevelt, and she actually, 361 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: through correspondence with Eleanor became a personal advisor to her 362 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: on civil and human rights issues well, and the UNC 363 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: president at the time knew Murray was qualified enough to 364 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: gain entrance, and he even consulted the U. S. Senate 365 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: on this. I mean, and this is incredible to me. 366 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: Already at this point in her life, she's like, oh, 367 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: like sounding the alarm all the way up to the 368 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: White House. Um. And later in life though, when UNC 369 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: Chapel Hill tries to grant her an honorary degree, Murray says, oh, 370 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 1: no things and finds it stuck to our guns that 371 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,920 Speaker 1: woman did. But the thing is like, that's ninety eight. 372 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: I feel like this sounds like, oh, yeah, of course, 373 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: something like that must have happened in the sixties, people 374 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: pushing back against UH segregation and racism and discrimination. This 375 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: is thirty eight. This woman's ahead of her time. She's 376 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: also ahead of her time because in nineteen forty, fifteen 377 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: years before Rosa Parks in Montgomery, Alabama, Polly and her 378 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: lady friend Adeline mcbreen were arrested in Virginia for refusing 379 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: to move to the back of a greyhound bus. And 380 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: so what possibly contributed to this contentious UH conflict scenario? 381 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: Was the fact that she was actually dressed in men's 382 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: clothes at the time, and uh, that could have contributed 383 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: to antagonizing the police toward her. Yeah, there was a 384 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: headline though from the time reporting on the incident it 385 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: was Jim Crow bus dispute leads to girls arrest and 386 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: the news article just scribes her as a honey tongued 387 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: legal mind. Don't mess with her, I mean, even then, 388 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: honey tongue legal mind. In the same year, her honey 389 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: tongue legal mind was hired by the Workers Defense League 390 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: to pardon a black sharecropper who was convicted of murder, 391 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 1: and she returns to Virginia to raise money and meets 392 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: prominent civil rights lawyers, which inspires her to start Howard 393 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: Law School with the aspiration of becoming an n double 394 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: a CP lawyer. So she starts law school in N one, 395 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: but law school going to Howard, where race is no 396 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: longer the discriminatory issue sex discrimination comes to the forefront. Yeah, 397 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: it's during this time that she coins that term Jane 398 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,479 Speaker 1: Crow to describe her experience of the double race and 399 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: sex based discrimination, and one source we read described it 400 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: as a eerie born from her own struggles with categories 401 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: that seemed to do violence to Murray's own sense of self, 402 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: sometimes black and white, but far more often men and women. 403 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: And she's still active in civil rights protests. It's during 404 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: these years at Howard that she also participates in silent 405 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: demonstrations and sit ins at a Washington, d c. Cafeteria. Again, 406 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: keep in mind, some woman's ahead of her time. It's 407 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: the forties. I feel like school children today tend to 408 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: think of the civil rights movement as like a sixties thing. Yeah, 409 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: And and her graduating thesis from Howard was titled to 410 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: the civil Rights cases and PLUSY be overruled. And she's 411 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,880 Speaker 1: referring to plus C v. Ferguson the case which upheld 412 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: separate but equal, And she's arguing, obviously that plus C 413 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: should be overturned. This is ten years before Brown versus 414 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: The Board of Education case would overturn that separate but 415 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 1: equal clause. But when Polly first suggests this, all the 416 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: guys in her class laughed at her. She described it 417 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: as hoots of derisive laughter. But Polly would get the 418 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: last laugh sort of when Brown v. Board of Education 419 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: took place because n double a CP Chief Council third 420 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 1: good Marshall used Murray's thesis as a strategic guide to 421 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: argue the case. But the thing is all of this 422 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: was unbeknownst to Murray for years because he never gave 423 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: her credit for it. M Like, come on, man, come on, 424 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: thur Good. We could all stand to learn a little 425 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: something from RBG. I know Ruth Bader Ginsburg hashtag shine 426 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: theory knows how to attribute. So uh. Polly graduates as 427 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: the valedictorian of her Howard University class, naturally, which typically 428 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 1: would have parlayed into a scholarship to get a Masters 429 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: in law at Harvard. However, she was not a man. Yeah, 430 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: so Harvard Admissions wrote back to Polly saying, quote, your 431 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: picture and the salutation on your college transcript indicate that 432 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: you were not of the sex entitled to be admitted 433 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: to Harvard Law School. Come on a drag. And and 434 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: here's the whole Jane Crow thing too coming into play, 435 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: because she writes about how her male civil rights comrades 436 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: had really sympathized with her race based U n C 437 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: rejection years earlier, but when it came to her being 438 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: rejected by Harvard, they were simply amused at the idea 439 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: that she wanted to go there anyway, So there was 440 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: none of that support, that community support rallying around her 441 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: for for this particular rejection, it was more of like 442 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: a oh, you silly woman. Well, that silly woman decided 443 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: to take herself to get her Masters of Law degree 444 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: at UC Berkeley instead, and she graduated in and then 445 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: became the state first black Deputy Attorney General. A few 446 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: years later, in she pens the State's Laws on Race 447 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: and Colors, which was a compilation of all race related 448 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: state level laws. And this might sound like an insignificant detail, 449 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: Why are you telling us about this directory that this 450 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: woman wrote, essentially, Well, because yet again she is writing 451 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: what would essentially become known as the Bible of civil 452 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: rights law. Yeah, exactly. She had compiled it at the 453 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: request of the Methodist Churches Women's Division, which I love. 454 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, who but uh so, working very closely with 455 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: women from a church, and it just became this critical 456 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: piece of writing for a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, 457 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: and just again and again and again, she's laying all 458 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: of this legal foundation, doing all of this leg work 459 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: for these you know, landmark cases and desegregation that will 460 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: happen many years later. Well, yeah, I mean she but 461 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: all of this is driven by her her personal convictions. 462 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: I mean, she writes about how segregation places a badge 463 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,959 Speaker 1: of inferiority on black children, and and so it was 464 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: it was looking into her past, seeing her own experiences 465 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: with discrimination and and looking at the community around her 466 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: that drove her to try to make this world a 467 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: better place. Well, and also to going back to her 468 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 1: family tree, that duality of blackness and also the violent 469 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: whiteness that was in there with um, you know, the 470 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: rape of her great grandmother. Um. And she spends a 471 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: lot of time after nine, She spends four years actually 472 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: going back to North Carolina and researching all about her family. 473 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: And she ends up publishing sort of like a familial 474 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: autobiography called Proud Shoes, The Story of an American Family. 475 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: And Caroline, I gotta say, this reminded me a lot 476 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: of you, because genealogy is a hobby of yours. Oh 477 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: my god, I know I've lost so much sleep since 478 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: the holidays because I've been on a total family research kick. 479 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: But did you feel at least a little bonda to 480 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: Well I did. I did, because um, just her passion 481 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: for it and and seeing her give voice to a 482 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: lot of the same things that I feel in terms 483 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: of the importance of kind of figuring out where you 484 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: come from, because it's no small it's no small and 485 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: significant thing to figure out who your people were. She writes, 486 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: the conviction grew in me that one of the best 487 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: ways to incorporate social and political history into one's experience 488 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: is to embark on a search into one's family history. 489 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: These ancient documents spoke to me of a common humanity 490 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: and narra the distances between races, classes, and political positions. 491 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 1: And I mean, this is a woman who had to 492 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: come to terms with her multi racial, as she put it, 493 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: past an origin, someone who had to embrace both the 494 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: amazing freedmen in her tree, but also the slave ancestors 495 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: who she writes about who didn't have They did have 496 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: a complicated relationship obviously with the white people who owned them, 497 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: but she writes about having to come to terms with 498 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: the complexities of realizing that her great grandmother didn't hate 499 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,239 Speaker 1: these people. She was quite friendly and intimate with the 500 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: white women of that family. So, as you might imagine, 501 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: it's that dual heritage that had a huge effect on 502 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: her and gave her a strong sense of personal identity. 503 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: She writes about it as the tangled roots from which 504 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: I sprang, and said she felt it was part of 505 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: her destiny to counteract the effects of stereotypes that black 506 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: people had played no signific, vacant role in US history. 507 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: And that's what's so addictive about family research and genealogy. 508 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: It's it's digging into the past and realizing that whether 509 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: you're at the top of the socioeconomic heap or at 510 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: the bottom, all of these people played such an important 511 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: role in the foundation of this country. And so that 512 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: really played a role in helping her define who she was. Yeah, 513 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: And the more she learned about herself and where she 514 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: came from, and the more deeply embedded she became in 515 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement, motivated by those tangled roots that 516 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: she wrote about. It also fueled her feminism because as 517 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: we move into the sixties and seventies, particularly when the 518 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: Black power movement arises, she becomes really uncomfortable with the 519 00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 1: power structures that she sees emerging in it. And for instance, 520 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but just to give 521 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: you a sense of where we're going. In a nineteen 522 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: seventy essay, she wrote, the main thrust of black militancy 523 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: is a bit of black mails to share power with 524 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: white males in a continuing patriarchal society in which both 525 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: black and white females are relegated to a secondary status. Yeah, 526 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: and this is this is where it's important to remember 527 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 1: her push for um both protection for both sex and 528 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: racial discrimination, because her attitude was that if you protect 529 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: for both, then you uplift everyone. Like we mentioned earlier, Yeah, 530 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: so if we go back to nineteen sixty one, she's 531 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: a big deal. JFK appoints her to the President's Committee 532 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: on the Status of Women as well as the Commission 533 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: on Civil and Political Rights, And the more immersed she 534 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: gets in the civil rights movement, the more she starts 535 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: to see and call out sexism within the movement because 536 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: of its avoidance of appointing women to visible leadership roles 537 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: and tacitly endorsing gender segregation by, for instance, appearing at 538 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: the National Press Club, which enraged her because at the time, 539 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: the National Press Club excluded women. So she was like, 540 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: what are you doing. You're you can't stay in this 541 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: one space that doesn't allow these people in while you're 542 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: advocating for the rights of more people. Yeah. And it's 543 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: interesting because you've also got to keep in mind that 544 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: there were a lot of civil rights leaders who saw 545 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: women's rights as a completely separate issue, which echoes back 546 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: to our episodes that we've done on suffrage and black 547 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: women in the abolition and suffrage movements, because it was 548 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: sort of the other side of the coin back then. 549 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: All of these women pushing for suffrage and women's rights 550 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: were like black issues are totally separate things, stopped distracting 551 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: from the cause. Yeah, I mean, and in a way 552 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: like her biography does echo a lot of the women 553 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: that we talked about, um Ida b Wells comes to 554 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: mind of someone straddling both suffrage and abolition and often 555 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 1: being caught at those intersections. Um So, N four is 556 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: a pivotal year, not only for Polly but also for 557 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: the US because this is when the Civil Rights Act 558 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: is enacted, and this is the year that she co 559 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: authors her landmark paper, Jane Crow and the Law Sex Discrimination, 560 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: entitled seven, published in the George Washington Law Review. And 561 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 1: this was a really radical idea, this whole Jane Crow 562 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: of crystallizing that double discrimination of being not only African 563 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 1: American but also female because, as Harvard law professor Kenneth W. 564 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: Mac points out, this is the early nineteen sixties. You 565 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 1: still have laws on the books excluding women from certain 566 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: jobs like like bartending for instance. Um, you have all 567 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: male juries going on. Um, And we even have in 568 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one Scotus Justice John Marshall Harlan writing, woman 569 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: is still regarded as the center of home and family. 570 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: That's where she belongs. I added that last bit of 571 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: that's where she belongs. Well, yeah, it's that idea of 572 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: benevolent sexism, that women must be protected from certain dangerous 573 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:41,280 Speaker 1: or unsavory situations, whether it's being a bartender or being 574 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 1: a juror Yeah. And so she publishes this paper in 575 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: the same year. I mean, she's so busy. I want 576 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: to know also her secret to productivity. That's another episode, 577 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: I guess. Um. But the same year she individually lobbies 578 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: congressmen and even ladybroog John's them to include sex the 579 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: word sex in the Civil Rights Act to make sure 580 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: that it not only protects against racial discrimination but also 581 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: gender based discrimination. And she was able to convince congressmen 582 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 1: to include it because she was the first one to 583 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: argue not that it would benefit solely white women or 584 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: that it would possibly um negatively impact black men, but 585 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: she raised the issue of its impact on black women. 586 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's another thing. An undercurrent to all of 587 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: this stuff that's going on is the complete invisibility of 588 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: black women in our society for so long. Yeah, well, 589 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: she writes, I mean, speaking about herself, she read about 590 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 1: being a minority of a minority, of being a woman 591 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: who was also black, and the hardships that come along 592 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,960 Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, And so she was able to make 593 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,800 Speaker 1: the convincing argument that you must include that sex clause 594 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: because if you don't, you will leave out this entire 595 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: population of Black women and only increase the social burden 596 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: that they're bearing. And meanwhile, the next year, she becomes 597 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: the first African American to earn a JSD from Yale, 598 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,000 Speaker 1: and her dissertation is Roots of the Racial Crisis Prologue 599 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: to Policy. And I note all these things that she's writing, 600 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: because again, how is she doing all this? How does she? 601 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,799 Speaker 1: How does she do it? Caroline? I have no I 602 00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 1: have no idea. And and she wanted to add to 603 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: it because she also wanted to get a law school 604 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: teaching job after she graduated, but no one would hire her. 605 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:54,399 Speaker 1: And there have been questions about whether that distancing from 606 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: her as successful as she was, as prominent as she 607 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: was at the time, that her outward queerness possibly um 608 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: alienated her from certain employment. Interesting. Well, okay, so we 609 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: mentioned the whole jury thing earlier about benevolent sexism and 610 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,800 Speaker 1: women at the time being exempt from jury service unless 611 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: they volunteered. Well, that whole idea comes up again in 612 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,799 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six when, along with the a c LU 613 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 1: legal team, Polly co writes the brief in the case 614 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: White v. Cook, which struck down the constitutionality of all white, 615 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: all male juries. This gets rid of all of those 616 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,359 Speaker 1: quote unquote protections for women. She had wanted it though, 617 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 1: to reach the Supreme Court and serve as women's brown 618 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: versus Board of Education. And speaking of women, the same 619 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: year she becomes a founding member of the National Organization 620 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 1: for Women. She had suggested, actually to Betty for Dan 621 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: that there needed to be some sort of double a 622 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: CP for women. Um. And I mean, by this point 623 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: it makes total sense that she's so engaged with the 624 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: feminist movement because of all the groundwork that had been 625 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: laid going back to her sexist treatment at Howard being 626 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: on the President's Commission on the Status of Women. Researching 627 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 1: this and also, of course it's embedded in her Jane 628 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: Crow theory and her personal repulsion at the anti feminism 629 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: of some civil rights leaders as well as UH leaders 630 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 1: of the Black Power movement. But I mean she didn't, 631 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,279 Speaker 1: she didn't entirely find a home, not surprisingly in in 632 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: second way feminism, which was largely led by middle and 633 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: upper class white women. Yeah, I mean she said that 634 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: she did feel more comfortable within feminism, but she quickly 635 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: took issue with now's sidelining of civil rights leaders. So 636 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: it's that back and forth of like over here they 637 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: don't want this aspect of me, and over here they 638 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: don't want this other aspect of me. So she ends 639 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,839 Speaker 1: up leaving, joining the a c l U and from 640 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: there is instrumental in a c l U adopting women's 641 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: rights as a key priority. And from there she finally 642 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: gets a teaching job that she had so long been wanting. 643 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: She becomes a tenured professor at Brandis Um and she 644 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,240 Speaker 1: ends up developing some of the first black women's studies 645 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: courses as an American studies professor. Yeah, I mean she's 646 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,399 Speaker 1: not a two dimensional person by any means. I mean 647 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: her one of her original interests on her way to 648 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: grad school with sociology, but she you know, didn't go 649 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,640 Speaker 1: to you and c took the law route thankfully. Um. 650 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,399 Speaker 1: But I mean, this is a woman with so many 651 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: different interests. Like, you know, I'm reading all of this 652 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: stuff about her and then it's like, oh, yeah, And 653 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,760 Speaker 1: I mean she started all of these black women's studies 654 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: classes and You're like, how how does who has the time? 655 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: This woman? Like she's this is the most driven woman 656 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: I think I've ever read about. Oh and not to 657 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: mention Caroline, she was publishing poetry too all the while 658 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: because she I think her father wrote poetry and she 659 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: always felt that was a connection to him, you know, 660 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 1: because she lost him when she was twelve. I mean, 661 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: although she was obviously separated from him before that. But 662 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: if we jump forward, she's sixty two. She's done so 663 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: much you think that Polly would like kick up her 664 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: feet and just chill out for the rest of her life. No, no, no, no, 665 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:38,760 Speaker 1: she has one more first to accomplish. At sixty two, 666 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,400 Speaker 1: she enters episcopal seminary, despite the church not yet ordaining women. 667 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: Apparently in nineteen seventy four seven women had been sort 668 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: of like casually or day and they were like, we're 669 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: like kind of priests, but it's not really official. But 670 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,839 Speaker 1: Polly Murray was like, no, no, no no, this is nonsense. 671 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:04,319 Speaker 1: The sexism is ridiculous, and I love this faith. I'm 672 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 1: going to seminary. In the nineteen seven she became the 673 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: first black female episcopal priest, and fascinating detail, she leads 674 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: her first Eucharist in the same North Carolina church where 675 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: her grandmother, Cornelia had been baptized one d and twenty 676 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 1: three years earlier as a slave. I mean full circle. 677 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,720 Speaker 1: Probably took it full circle. It almost Her bio almost 678 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,799 Speaker 1: reads as if she had some kind of blueprint she 679 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: was following, because it's like, how else could you accomplish 680 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: so much in so many different corners of our society? Well, yeah, 681 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,280 Speaker 1: and I mean she also writes in terms of entering 682 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: the seminary, she writes about how Irene Barlow's death sort 683 00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: of sparked something in her that was undeniable. It was 684 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: this she had always sort of had a connection with Christianity, 685 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: but something in her was driven to dedicate her life 686 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: to it instead of just you know, belonging to a 687 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: church or going to a church. She just felt it 688 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: in her being that she had to do this, pursue 689 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,360 Speaker 1: this path, and it was she writes about how it 690 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 1: was fulfilling a different part of her. Obviously, all of 691 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: her legal work, her women's studies work, all of that 692 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,400 Speaker 1: had fulfilled very specific and large parts of her and 693 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: serve the community. But it was time to serve at 694 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: this age. It was time to serve a different part 695 00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: of herself and a different portion of the community well, 696 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: and I love how yet again her priesthood is an 697 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 1: example of that personal drive being the compulsion to have 698 00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:50,319 Speaker 1: that outwardly manifested into something to enrich the world outside her. 699 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: Because it was also with Irene Barlow that she um 700 00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 1: became more immersed in the church. They would go to 701 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: church together and it was you know, a significant part 702 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,400 Speaker 1: of their relationship. And so I like thinking of her 703 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: going to seminary as Um, I don't know, is almost 704 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: an homage to Irene and that love that they had, 705 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,879 Speaker 1: which I couldn't find out much about, especially because it's 706 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:20,280 Speaker 1: not really documented in her personal papers or her autobiographies. Um, 707 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 1: there's there's not much out there about Irene. So after 708 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: such a rich and accomplished and sometimes highly conflicted life, 709 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 1: she dies and her autobiography, Song and a Weary Throat 710 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: comes out two years later. And it's not until two 711 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: thousand twelve that the General Convention of the Episcopal Church 712 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 1: makes her a saint. But we want to fitting end 713 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: to this saint hood. Yeah, you know, I'm picturing because 714 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: there's this great picture of her where she's close up 715 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: and she's wearing her collar and she's smiling into the 716 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: camera with her glasses on, and I just imagine a 717 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: little halo going above her head. Thing. I mean, the 718 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:07,239 Speaker 1: things that this woman contributed to our world and our 719 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: society are incredible. She broke so many barriers and and 720 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,960 Speaker 1: she meant to. I mean, this is a woman who 721 00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,799 Speaker 1: meant to break these freaking barriers. Like she knew what 722 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,120 Speaker 1: she was up against, she knew what she was doing, 723 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 1: and the very life, her very existence was against the 724 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: norm and breaking barriers. And I mean, you know, talk 725 00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: about a a heroine for for for all of us. Yeah, 726 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: because I mean that was her goal to embody intersectionality, 727 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,000 Speaker 1: even though that word had not been coined yet by 728 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: yet another female legal scholar down the road and bridging 729 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: gaps and uplifting marginalized people because of all the different 730 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: layers of identities and experiences that she had. And you're 731 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,759 Speaker 1: so right about the intentionality of all of it. Even 732 00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:04,640 Speaker 1: when she applied to grad school at you and See, 733 00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:06,439 Speaker 1: she knew she wasn't going to get in. She knew 734 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: that they had a policy um barring people of color 735 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 1: from admissions, but she didn't care, you know, she wanted 736 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,560 Speaker 1: to make a point. Well, I just I am so 737 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:25,319 Speaker 1: fascinated to look at modern uh feminism and politics in 738 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: light of Polly Murray's life because you know, I don't 739 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: know how many times we can say that she was 740 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 1: ahead of her time, because we need so many more 741 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: minds like hers that worked to incorporate all of these 742 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:43,520 Speaker 1: different layers of yes, gender and sexuality but also race 743 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,399 Speaker 1: and uh socioeconomics. I mean, this woman tried to incorporate 744 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,359 Speaker 1: and did incorporate all of this into her life's work. Well, 745 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: and it makes me so curious to know what she 746 00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,000 Speaker 1: would say about intersectionality today if she was sitting here 747 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,760 Speaker 1: at us, and what she would undoubtedly be seeing as 748 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:07,279 Speaker 1: the next step she would because you know, of course 749 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: she would be if she were alive today, she would 750 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,360 Speaker 1: already be like twelve steps ahead of us. So I 751 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:14,480 Speaker 1: almost wish that she were still around to tell us 752 00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,560 Speaker 1: what to do next. Well, listeners, I hope that Paully 753 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,040 Speaker 1: Murray's legacy has resonated as much with you as it 754 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,719 Speaker 1: has with us. Caroline, I've been telling so many people 755 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: about her by the way, um, and I'm curious to 756 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: know from from folks whether they had heard of her before. 757 00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,200 Speaker 1: Mom Stupp at house stuffworks dot com is where you 758 00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,919 Speaker 1: can send us your letters and if there are other 759 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:44,400 Speaker 1: unsung trailblazers that we should look into, please let us know. 760 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,759 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 761 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,319 Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. And we've got a couple of 762 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: messages to share with you right now. Why have a 763 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 1: letter here from elizabe It, She says, I just listened 764 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: to the episode on feminist marriages, and like everyone their mom, 765 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,359 Speaker 1: their dog, and their downstairs neighbor, I have a couple 766 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: since I want to throw in about last names. I've 767 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: heard a lot of women talk about how it's a 768 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 1: feminist wind to keep their own last name after getting married. 769 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 1: Some women get pretty smug about this, which is obnoxious 770 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,560 Speaker 1: to say the least. But what nobody seems to mention 771 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,040 Speaker 1: about this is, ahem, a woman's maiden barf last name 772 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,399 Speaker 1: is her dad's name. More likely than not, a woman 773 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,719 Speaker 1: who is us born to an English speaking family and 774 00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,760 Speaker 1: plenty of other backgrounds have their dad's name. Dads are 775 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,720 Speaker 1: almost always men, and fatherhood is a concept and social 776 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,160 Speaker 1: familial structure that is at the very root of patriarchy, 777 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: quite literally, if we look at the root of the 778 00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: word patriarchy. So I'm not married and probably will never 779 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,680 Speaker 1: make that choice for myself, but it drives me nuts 780 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,919 Speaker 1: to hear the fact that an unmarried woman's last name 781 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: is probably her dad's last name, who's also a man 782 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: who is or was also a perceived authority figure. I 783 00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: say all this to say women are kind of screwed 784 00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,799 Speaker 1: on this front, so we should just do whatever we 785 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:01,720 Speaker 1: want it with our last names and not feel compelled 786 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: one way or another by patriarchy or feminism to change 787 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: or keep it. In the seventies and earlier, it was 788 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,120 Speaker 1: definitely super subversive and radical, but these days I think 789 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: people need to chill out a little before they start 790 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: asking for medals for keeping their dad's name instead of 791 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,160 Speaker 1: taking their male spouses. Anyways, have been am currently and 792 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,200 Speaker 1: will remain a huge fan of the cast. Keep it 793 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,759 Speaker 1: up well, Thank you, Elizabeth, loved your letter. I've got 794 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: a letter here from Carrie, also about our Feminist Marriage podcast, 795 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,800 Speaker 1: and she writes, I've been married to a wonderful feminist 796 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:36,040 Speaker 1: dude for eight years now, and it's been wonderful. Congratulations, Scary. 797 00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: We took each other's names because we viewed marriage as 798 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: emerging of our two lives. As a consequence, we are 799 00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,800 Speaker 1: the only Holly Hurts in the world, and that's pretty cool. 800 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,200 Speaker 1: I enjoyed Meg Keane's view of marriage, especially what she 801 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 1: said about household duties being a negotiation. I completely agree 802 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,480 Speaker 1: with that. Although our system is a little less formal. 803 00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: We both take on chores we have time for or 804 00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,360 Speaker 1: we're better at, so I cook and he cleans the kitchen. 805 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 1: But when it comes to things neither of us wants 806 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: to do, like changing a dirty diaper, we go toe 807 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,640 Speaker 1: to toe in a rousing game of rock paper scissors. 808 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,480 Speaker 1: It's the perfect way to get things done without either 809 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,720 Speaker 1: of us feeling like we're doing more than the other. 810 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:18,640 Speaker 1: But Carrie, what if one of you is just like, 811 00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,120 Speaker 1: really really good at rock paper scissors? Just wondering. She 812 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: goes on to say, though marriage takes work, but I 813 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,719 Speaker 1: imagine it's a hell of a lot easier when you 814 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,080 Speaker 1: have a partner that respects you and gets it. We're 815 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:32,640 Speaker 1: just doing this thing and clinging on to each other 816 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:37,319 Speaker 1: for dear life. So thank you, Carrie, and um, I'm 817 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,959 Speaker 1: wishing you the best of luck with some rock paper 818 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,520 Speaker 1: scissors victories and friends. Keep your letters coming, mom. Stab 819 00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: at Housettworks dot com is where you can send them 820 00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,839 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 821 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,440 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with 822 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:56,640 Speaker 1: our sources. So you can learn more about Polly Murray, 823 00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. 824 00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 825 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 1: how stuff Works dot com.