WEBVTT - #021 Jason Flom with Floyd Bledsoe and Cornelius Dupree (Live from the Innocence Network Conference 2017) 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:10.600 With the police banging on the door open up. The 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:12.680 choice to be in that lineup was the last choice 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:15.520 that made as a free man. A year later, I 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:19.680 ended up writing the system. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.279 I'm going to be one of those people who everyone 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:21.919 in the world is going to think as a monster 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.040 or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life, 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:25.360 and I'm just going to have to come to peace 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:25.639 with that. 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:29.560 Somebody was able to look at my picture in the 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.120 database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't. 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.519 I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:38.760 might have to play in my hanging. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:40.960 They had been told that two. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.680 Prison officers would have to participate in my execution. 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.280 Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man, 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:49.600 all help broke loose. 0:00:49.640 --> 0:01:03.200 But this weekend we're recording from sunny San Diego at 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:06.160 the Innocence Network Conference, And because we have so many 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:09.720 xaneries together, we'll be doing two shorter interviews with two 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.920 incredible exoneries who will talk about what this conference means 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.960 to them, Floyd Ledsoe and Cornelius Dupree. But let's start 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.400 with Maddie Delone, the executive director of the Innocence Project, 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:23.600 who will explain how this conference came into existence and 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:27.440 what it's all about. Maddie Delone. Maddie, welcome, Thanks Jason. 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:28.319 Great to be here. 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:30.800 Maddie is a force of nature. She has spent her 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.600 entire life in criminal justice reform, fair to say, and 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.080 everything from working inside of prisons to really building and 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.840 running what is the organization at the forefront of the 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.840 innocence movement, at the center, whatever you want to call it. 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:49.360 And we're here today at the Innocence Network conference in 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:54.360 San Diego, which is an out of this world's extraordinary event. 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.720 And Maddie, you and I go back to the beginning 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:01.440 of this together and your memories better than mine. So 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.040 I wanted to talk to you about how this all 0:02:04.120 --> 0:02:08.120 started and also what it means to be here, not 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.200 only for you and the staff, but for the x Hoonneries. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:14.720 Wow, that's a lot, Jason. So the Innocence Project started 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.799 about twenty five years ago as a small clinic at 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.000 Cardozo Law School with Barry and Peter running the show, 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.040 working with students, other law professors, and really understanding the 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.560 power of the science to get people out of prison. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.200 The DNA technology was pretty new in the criminal justice system. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.560 Pretty quickly they realized how many innocent people there were 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:37.960 and how much work it was going to take to 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.359 get people out of prison across the country, and they 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.160 began to find law professors really at other universities across 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:48.040 the country to do this work. So the sort of 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.040 next projects in the network were formed, the Innocence Project 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:56.560 in ninety two, There was a project in ninety four. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:00.480 I just heard that the Innocence Project Northwest rated their 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.840 twentieth anniversary this year. So those are among the first projects, 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.400 and pretty quickly people realized they needed to have a 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.800 way to come together and to begin to share what 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.000 they were learning and figure it out. You have to 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:16.120 remember that while we have fifty post conviction DNA laws 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:18.600 right now, so for people for whom DNA can prove 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.079 in a sense, you now have a way to get 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.000 back into court. That wasn't true when this all started. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.840 So they had to figure out how do you get 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.639 back into court when there's no mechanism, and they use 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.040 the press, and they use persuasion, and more and more 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.760 they could use as they began exonerating people, the power 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:38.200 of those stories and the experiences of the xonaies. I 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.200 think the first network conference was in two thousand, so 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.600 it's seventeen years later, and this is the sixteenth conference. 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.080 At that first conference, there were maybe seventy five or 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.240 eighty people. I wasn't there, but Barri and Peter were there, 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.360 and a number of the people who are still in 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:00.080 this work today. And with each conference the conference grew, 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:04.440 new projects started, more people were exonerated, the exoneries began 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.800 to come to the conferences in bigger and bigger numbers. 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:11.200 We began to work. You began to work to help 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.480 pay for people to get there, to put them up 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:16.360 in hotels, people who had no resources. 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:18.159 Right, these are people from all over the country and 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:19.680 even other parts of the world as well. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.440 That's right. We had an amazing conference at the Ohio 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.240 Innocence Project hosted in two thousand and eleven I think, 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:30.640 where we invited Mark Gotsei, who was the Ohio Innocence 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.600 Project director, really invited people from around the world who 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:36.920 were doing this work to come, and they brought x 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:41.200 hooneries from Japan and Italy and other places. So it 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:44.760 has grown from probably in two thousand, maybe eight or nine, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.600 exonerated people and today in San Diego they're almost two hundred. 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:52.880 Yeah, it's amazing. I mean last night we posted a 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.679 graphic on the screen with the total number of years served, 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.240 including two hundred and twenty two years served on death row. 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.039 Extraordinary being here and being a part of it, and 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:08.039 just sort of experiencing the energy, the positive energy that's 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:11.200 developed or that's generated, I should say, from the ex 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.159 houneries being around each other, because not unlike what I 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.159 understand to be the case with POW's prisons of war, 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.320 no one can understand what they've been through except for 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:20.960 each other, as much as we try and as much 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.480 as we want to help, and so it's really been 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:29.320 an extraordinary journey to watch them heal. And it's obviously 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.360 a very long, it's a never ending journey, but progress 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.120 is being made in this building as we speak, and 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:36.839 that's the remarkable thing to be a part of. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:38.520 Can I just tell you a story I just heard 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:40.640 from one of the directors of one of the projects 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.520 this morning. They have a client who got out of 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:45.720 prison after thirty two years and got out maybe four 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.880 or five months ago. Came to the conference last night. 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.039 As you were saying, there was an introduction of all 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.960 of the ex Honeries, including forty seven X Honeries who 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.160 had never been here before. And at the end of 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:00.640 that presentation and the whole crowd is standing and cheering 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.920 and crying and they're hugging each other on stage. Her 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.039 client walked down the stairs from the stage and said 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.679 to her this is the first time I felt free. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.599 I mean, it's it's heavy, and it's magical. I mean, 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.479 there's no other word to explain it. And yeah, it's 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.040 so great because every time one of them gets up 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.520 and the crowd erupts, nobody tells anybody to erupt, and 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.080 nobody tells anybody to stand, But it's a standing ovation 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:27.560 every time, and they're really among their peers, and they're 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:29.600 among people who love them and care about them as 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.279 we do. So it's a it's just an awesome thing. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.960 What is that for the Innocence Project? I mean, how 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:39.000 have you been able to focus the staff who traditionally 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.520 were just focused on the legal stuff. How are you 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:44.040 able to build this into the sort of the deal 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.280 lack of a better word, the DNA of the Innocence Project. 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.520 One thing we had, you know, as we got more 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:50.960 and more people out about ten years ago. We actually 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.120 made the decision with our board that you're on to 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.920 hire a social worker, and we now have two social 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:58.120 workers who work in the office and each of them 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.320 works on cases as people are about to come home, 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:03.880 and then is a person for them to go to 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.680 and talk to over the course of you know, intensively, 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.400 probably the first year, but for some people they're still 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.000 talking often ten years later. We also have developed a 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:17.880 fund for Innocence Project exonarees who don't have resources or 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.120 have family without resources when they come out, so that 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.480 we can help pay for rent or medical care that's 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.720 not covered under state insurance schemes, or whatever the case 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.840 may be. And I think we're trying to get I know, 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.600 we're trying to get better and better at that every year, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:35.960 and we're learning more and more from the exoneries themselves 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.760 about what it takes. And one of the things I 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.240 think it takes, and you talked about it at the beginning, 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:44.800 is bringing them together with each other more often. They 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.360 really are the people who are best able to help 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.200 each other heal. And we're realizing the importance of their 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.080 families and the importance of helping find support for their 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:58.360 family members because like the exonarees. The family members worked 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:01.840 for twelve years, for ten years, twenty years, thirty years, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.720 when they stuck with them. They work to help get 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:06.680 somebody out. And if you've been on that course of 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.320 getting yourself out or helping someone else get out for 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:12.840 twenty years and then they're out, you have to find 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.440 the next course of purpose. And I think there's hope 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.400 for many people that it will just be glorious and 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:21.880 perfect and they'll be free. It's a thing they worked 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.080 at for so long. But life on the outside is hard, and. 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.160 The first question people want to know is do they 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:29.960 get compensation when they get out? And they're flabbergasset to 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.880 find out that not only are there I think twenty 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.920 states that don't have compensation statutes at all, but also 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.320 even if you are entitled the conversation, it can take 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:40.760 many years to get it. So you're just in the 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:44.200 twilight zone. Now you're out and trying to figure out 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:48.200 how to live with nothing, and it's an incredible series 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:51.080 of challenges. Let's just talk for a moment, Maddie about 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.240 the strategic litigation aspect of our work. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.640 So we have two programs, and the strategic litigation program 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.959 is a pretty new program for the last five years, 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:02.040 although I like to think that the Innocence Project has 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.600 been doing it in maybe a less focused and concentrated 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:09.600 way forever. But the Strategic Litigation Unit, which was founded 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.600 five years ago by your generosity and that of your family, 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.680 run by Christopher Fabricant, who's a brilliant lawyer, really works 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.960 on getting the courts to understand their role as a 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:27.160 gatekeeper of bad evidence going into cases. And so the 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:31.920 Strategic Litigation Unit takes cases around the country where there 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.640 is bad forensic science is trying to be introduced, or 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.160 eyewitness identification procedures that were done in a way that's 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.240 not reliable and not likely to give you the best ID. 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:46.720 In fact, seventy five percent of the DNA cases have 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.120 had an eyewitness identification, which is erroneous. So we know 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:53.080 how important it is to get the ID procedures right, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.880 and our team finds cases to teach courts about how 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:00.199 to vet evidence and to keep bad evidence out. If 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:02.480 we can keep bad evidence out of these cases in 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.319 the first place, then you'll never have people being wrongly 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.400 convicted until and lessen until the police and prosecutors and 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:12.080 the courts understand that at the front end and begin 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.920 to implement procedures and keep the evidence out of court. 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.160 We're going to continue to replicate the problems we have 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:20.960 with wrongful conviction and to put more people in. And 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:24.720 you said it yourself, it takes forever to get them out. 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.440 If somebody goes in and they exhaust their state appeals 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:30.720 eight years later, and then they write to us and 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.120 then we take their case and then we litigate the 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.480 case for ten or twelve or fifteen years. Sometimes heard 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.720 someone today who has a case that they picked up 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.320 in nineteen ninety nine. It's twenty seventeen. The person was 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.880 just freed. That's an entire life. So we have to 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:47.560 stop it at the front end, and that's what the 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.320 Strategic Litigation Unit tries to do. The Joseph Flohm Special 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:54.520 Council has done amazing work in the courts to try 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.160 to protect people from having bad evidence admitted in the 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:59.880 first place in the courts. And that's what it's going 0:10:59.920 --> 0:11:02.199 to take to really change the system. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:04.760 Yeah, and I know that my dad, if he were here, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.600 would be thrilled to see the quality of the work 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.600 that's being done in his name. He was a supporter 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.280 of the instant project, and Scadden of course has donated 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.480 tens of thousands of. 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:17.040 Millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of legal 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:19.360 brilliant legal talent and support to the. 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.880 Project, and they still do to this day. Recently, Keith 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.200 Allen Harward was freed after thirty three years in prison 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:28.000 in Virginia with the help of the pro Bone of 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.360 Department at Scatten in DC, run by Don Salzman. So yeah, 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.679 it just continues. Unfortunately, our work will never end. We'd 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.520 love to put ourselves out of business, but unfortunately that's 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.360 not going to happen in our lifetimes. Maddie Delone, it's 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.880 a pleasure to have you on the podcast today and 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.440 I really appreciate you stopping by and dropping some knowledge. 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.560 Thank you, Jason, great to be here. Keep up the 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:49.040 great work. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.439 So that was a great introduction to the conference from 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.560 my friend and partner in Fighting Injustice, Maddie the loan. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:08.200 Let's continue with the one and only Floyd Bledsoell. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:11.400 After spending sixteen years behind bars for a murder his 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:12.439 brother committed. 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:15.480 In nineteen ninety nine, fourteen year old Camille Arfman went 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:19.199 missing after getting off the bus from school Bledsoe's older brother, 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.960 Tom confessed several times to the murder and led police 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.640 to her body, but several days later, Tom Bledsoe changed 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.640 his story, pinning the murder on Floyd. New DNA evidence 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.520 in October of twenty fifteen implicated Tom Bledsoe. 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:38.720 Just over a month ago, Floyd Bledsoe's murder conviction was overturned. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.760 Law enforcement a district coord agreeing he was an innocent man. 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:45.599 Floyd Bledsell, Welcome to the show. Thank you. Floyd is 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:48.640 an axonnery from Kansas who served. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:50.960 Sixteen years sixteen years. 0:12:50.880 --> 0:12:53.160 And you out there listening had just as much to 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:54.840 do with it as he did, that's fair to say. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.760 And his attorney, Alice Craig is here. Alice, welcome, thank you, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.640 thanks for being here. So we're here at the Innocent 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.960 Network conference in San Diego. Have you been to San 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:05.560 Diego before? 0:13:05.760 --> 0:13:07.559 No, this is a very beautiful city. 0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.160 Yeah, it's pretty. It's different than Kansas, very different than 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:16.040 Kansas and the Ocean. I I just can't even So 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:20.920 your case in a nutshell revolved around this rape and murder, 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:26.359 and it's so bizarre because this one came with instructions 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:31.160 right tragically, your brother was the culprit. And what makes 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.600 this so insane is that he went he confessed to 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.839 a religious figure, was a pastor or something, and then 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.040 he confessed to the police. Yes, and he provided the 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.439 murder weapon, told him where to find. 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:45.319 The body, took him to the body, took him to 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:45.760 the body. 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:49.199 Yeah. Right, So you're probably having the same reaction I was, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.280 which was okay, so thanks for telling us, and here's 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:56.320 your one way ticket to prison, right, I mean, but 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:57.520 that's not what happened. 0:13:57.600 --> 0:13:59.320 No, can you walk us. 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:01.800 Through how you ended up being charged for a crime 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.439 that your brother had not only clearly committed, but had 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.040 confessed to in every conceivable way. 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.400 Right, and he had confessed to multiple times, multiple people 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.199 had heard him. Basically what happened On November seventh, at 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.079 about ten o'clock that evening, he went to the police station, 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.960 made a phone call to the pastor of the church. Said, Hey, 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:22.720 this is Tom. 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:24.240 I'm sorry. I lied to you. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.200 I know where she is. I'm going to turn myself in. 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:29.840 He says, I wish I could have turned back to 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.760 hands of time, but I can't. And then he said, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.440 please help my parents through this, and then he hung up. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:41.320 Called our father, and then called Jim back again and 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.800 left basically the same message, saying that he wished he 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:46.880 hadn't done it, wish he could have turned back to 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:49.280 hands of time, but he made his choice. He's going 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:50.960 to pay for it for the rest of his life, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.480 and that mom and dad were mad at him, and 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.360 he was turning himself in. He asked the church to 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.400 forgive him, God to forgive him, and they took him 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:02.240 to get int Arney. Then the attorney went to the 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:06.400 police department. His attorney told him that Tom knows where 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.840 the girl is, and then the police went with him 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:10.080 to where the body was. 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:11.840 He showed him. 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:16.200 The detectives testified at trial that the area was so 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:19.600 well concealed and only the true perpetrator would have known. 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:22.360 Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't a lucky guest. No, No. 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:24.960 And it was the middle of the night, dark. 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:26.320 And he had just bought the gun, and he had 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:27.600 just bought the the gun. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:29.480 Two weeks prior. So much stuff. 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.760 This was literally the easiest case in the history of 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.840 criminal justice for the authorities. Alice, would you disagree with that? 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:36.160 No? 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:36.720 I wouldn't. 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.080 I mean this was it like, I mean, it's gift 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:40.000 wrapped right. 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:43.280 They charged him with murder that Monday. Three or four 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.560 days later, he decides he doesn't like jail and says 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.200 he didn't do it, that his brother did it, which 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.120 was me. So the police they were like, well, how 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.520 did you know all this stuff? He said, well, he 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.480 confessed to me on the side of the road. Detective 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:02.440 Carino says, okay, that's plausible and says when Tom says 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.760 two thirty in the afternoon, Randy says, are you sure? 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.400 And this is all said in my trial. Randy says 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.320 are you sure? And Tom says, yep, I'm positive. 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:13.360 Had to be two thirty. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.600 Randy told admitted a trial that he told Tom that 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.520 he was lying and Tom said, no, I'm not. He goes, yeah, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.360 you are. You want to know how I know you're lying? 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:24.800 He was like, how he said Floyd was sitting in 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:28.000 my patrol car two thirty in the afternoon, and Tom said, well, 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.840 must have been earlier. Randy admitted to giving Tom facts 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.920 to make his story more believable. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:34.680 At my trial. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.760 The whole thing is just like, actually, I mean, and 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:43.800 there's so much I mean, I guess basically. 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.880 It comes down to people getting tunnel vision, people making mistakes, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:53.520 poor detective work, stuff that should have been investigated they 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:57.400 didn't look at. And then you throw Tom's defense attorney, 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.800 who you know, his job is to get his client 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.359 off and he means necessary within the law, supposedly. And 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:09.560 so I don't think we know the true reason why 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:14.160 everything went the way did. But ultimately, with his attorneys 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:19.199 and help and poor investigation, things flipped. They arrested me, 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:25.080 they claim on November fifteenth, but when they interviewed me 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:29.720 on November eleventh, I believe it was twelveth somewhere running there. 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.400 They had me in the holding cell, wouldn't let me leave. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.359 They told my wife or my ex wife, but my 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.720 wife then that they didn't know where I was. They 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.120 said he got in a car and left. When she said, well, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.399 his car's out front, they told her he left. We 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.520 don't know where he went. I was in their holding cell. 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:49.600 The whole thing is totally set. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.359 You know, for four days, nobody knew where I was 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.439 except them, And then finally, after the press got a 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.399 hold of it, then they. 0:17:57.600 --> 0:17:59.040 Charged me with for sugar murder. 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.879 And then I went to trial. I had poor representation 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.760 and got found guilty. The Tippeek at Capitol Journal interviewed 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:12.800 an individual who was on the jury member and he said, 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:15.280 we didn't know who did it, but this was our 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:19.360 opportunity to make somebody pay. I guess we made a mistake. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:21.640 Sixteen years that's a mistake. 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.679 I guess We'm interesting. We just had somebody paid, just 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.920 picked somebody out of the phone book, and just you know, 0:18:26.960 --> 0:18:29.040 I mean in this case, it was just you know, Alice, 0:18:29.080 --> 0:18:32.240 what a crazy turn of events. I mean, ultimately Floyd 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:37.280 was exonerated, right, and Alice, how did the exoneration come about? 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.520 So Floyd's case is one of those cases that I 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.639 think every lawyer who looked at it was really interested 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:47.320 in and wanted to help. None of us were going 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.639 to let go of it. My clinic at k Law School, 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.679 the Innocence Project there, we took his case on. We 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.280 probably started working on your case in two thousand and 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:02.080 five and went to federal court. And the interesting thing 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.160 with the federal habeas that we did is that the 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.320 federal district judge when we filed our habeas, actually ruled 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.440 in Floyd's favor and issued an opinion that essentially said 0:19:13.440 --> 0:19:18.080 Floyd was innocent. And this conviction couldn't stand. Once he 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:20.959 did that, Floyd said, well, can I be released? And 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.840 I guess So we asked the federal court to release 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.439 him while the state appealed, and they did so. Floyd 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.280 was actually out for a year. That was probably the 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.040 nine months that was probably the hardest thing for us. 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.600 The state appealed his case to the Tenth Circuit. I 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.399 remember when we were about to argue in the Tenth Circuit. 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.480 I was talking to the state's attorney before we walked 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.960 up to the podium, and he said to me, we 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.080 don't think Floyd did it, but we have to protect 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:50.919 our jury verdict. 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.359 Okay, well, let's just think about that for a second. 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.840 We don't think he did it, but the jury verdict 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.359 is more important than justice or one person's them and 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.760 liberty and all that in pursuit of happening to all 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:04.719 that stuff is all out the window because we need 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.359 to protect our jury theoretic because it's a sort of quoint. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.919 Well, actually, what gets worse is we lost in the 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.399 Tenth Circuit because of the standard of review, and the 0:20:13.440 --> 0:20:17.800 Tenth Circuit said, we're not going to overturn this. Kansas 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:22.399 State courts and so we lost and they reversed the 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:26.199 federal district judge and I had to call Floyd and 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:27.439 tell me how to go back to prison. 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.480 But then you got them out. We're sitting here. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:34.040 So at that point in time, we filed for DNA testing, 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.959 and one of our concerns was that the investigation that 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.320 was originally done, and I think it goes back to 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.439 what you said at the very beginning that this seemed 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.800 to be a slam dunk case. So a lot of 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.760 investigation that should have been done wasn't done. And our 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.800 biggest concern, I think, was whether or not there'd be 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:55.120 evidence to test. That was the largest concern we had. 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.320