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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up. The

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Speaker 1: choice to be in that lineup was the last choice

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Speaker 1: that made as a free man. A year later, I

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Speaker 1: ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 2: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 2: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 2: with that.

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Speaker 3: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 3: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 4: might have to play in my hanging.

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Speaker 1: They had been told that two.

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Speaker 4: Prison officers would have to participate in my execution.

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Speaker 1: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

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Speaker 1: all help broke loose.

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Speaker 5: But this weekend we're recording from sunny San Diego at

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Speaker 5: the Innocence Network Conference, And because we have so many

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Speaker 5: xaneries together, we'll be doing two shorter interviews with two

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Speaker 5: incredible exoneries who will talk about what this conference means

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Speaker 5: to them, Floyd Ledsoe and Cornelius Dupree. But let's start

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Speaker 5: with Maddie Delone, the executive director of the Innocence Project,

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Speaker 5: who will explain how this conference came into existence and

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Speaker 5: what it's all about. Maddie Delone. Maddie, welcome, Thanks Jason.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here.

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Speaker 5: Maddie is a force of nature. She has spent her

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Speaker 5: entire life in criminal justice reform, fair to say, and

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Speaker 5: everything from working inside of prisons to really building and

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Speaker 5: running what is the organization at the forefront of the

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Speaker 5: innocence movement, at the center, whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 5: And we're here today at the Innocence Network conference in

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Speaker 5: San Diego, which is an out of this world's extraordinary event.

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Speaker 5: And Maddie, you and I go back to the beginning

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Speaker 5: of this together and your memories better than mine. So

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Speaker 5: I wanted to talk to you about how this all

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Speaker 5: started and also what it means to be here, not

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Speaker 5: only for you and the staff, but for the x Hoonneries.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's a lot, Jason. So the Innocence Project started

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Speaker 2: about twenty five years ago as a small clinic at

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Speaker 2: Cardozo Law School with Barry and Peter running the show,

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Speaker 2: working with students, other law professors, and really understanding the

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Speaker 2: power of the science to get people out of prison.

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Speaker 2: The DNA technology was pretty new in the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: Pretty quickly they realized how many innocent people there were

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Speaker 2: and how much work it was going to take to

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Speaker 2: get people out of prison across the country, and they

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Speaker 2: began to find law professors really at other universities across

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Speaker 2: the country to do this work. So the sort of

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Speaker 2: next projects in the network were formed, the Innocence Project

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Speaker 2: in ninety two, There was a project in ninety four.

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Speaker 2: I just heard that the Innocence Project Northwest rated their

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Speaker 2: twentieth anniversary this year. So those are among the first projects,

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Speaker 2: and pretty quickly people realized they needed to have a

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Speaker 2: way to come together and to begin to share what

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Speaker 2: they were learning and figure it out. You have to

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Speaker 2: remember that while we have fifty post conviction DNA laws

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Speaker 2: right now, so for people for whom DNA can prove

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Speaker 2: in a sense, you now have a way to get

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Speaker 2: back into court. That wasn't true when this all started.

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Speaker 2: So they had to figure out how do you get

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Speaker 2: back into court when there's no mechanism, and they use

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Speaker 2: the press, and they use persuasion, and more and more

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Speaker 2: they could use as they began exonerating people, the power

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Speaker 2: of those stories and the experiences of the xonaies. I

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Speaker 2: think the first network conference was in two thousand, so

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Speaker 2: it's seventeen years later, and this is the sixteenth conference.

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Speaker 2: At that first conference, there were maybe seventy five or

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Speaker 2: eighty people. I wasn't there, but Barri and Peter were there,

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Speaker 2: and a number of the people who are still in

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Speaker 2: this work today. And with each conference the conference grew,

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Speaker 2: new projects started, more people were exonerated, the exoneries began

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Speaker 2: to come to the conferences in bigger and bigger numbers.

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Speaker 2: We began to work. You began to work to help

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Speaker 2: pay for people to get there, to put them up

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Speaker 2: in hotels, people who had no resources.

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Speaker 5: Right, these are people from all over the country and

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Speaker 5: even other parts of the world as well.

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Speaker 2: That's right. We had an amazing conference at the Ohio

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project hosted in two thousand and eleven I think,

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Speaker 2: where we invited Mark Gotsei, who was the Ohio Innocence

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Speaker 2: Project director, really invited people from around the world who

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Speaker 2: were doing this work to come, and they brought x

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Speaker 2: hooneries from Japan and Italy and other places. So it

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Speaker 2: has grown from probably in two thousand, maybe eight or nine,

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Speaker 2: exonerated people and today in San Diego they're almost two hundred.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's amazing. I mean last night we posted a

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Speaker 5: graphic on the screen with the total number of years served,

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Speaker 5: including two hundred and twenty two years served on death row.

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Speaker 5: Extraordinary being here and being a part of it, and

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Speaker 5: just sort of experiencing the energy, the positive energy that's

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Speaker 5: developed or that's generated, I should say, from the ex

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Speaker 5: houneries being around each other, because not unlike what I

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Speaker 5: understand to be the case with POW's prisons of war,

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Speaker 5: no one can understand what they've been through except for

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Speaker 5: each other, as much as we try and as much

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Speaker 5: as we want to help, and so it's really been

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Speaker 5: an extraordinary journey to watch them heal. And it's obviously

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Speaker 5: a very long, it's a never ending journey, but progress

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Speaker 5: is being made in this building as we speak, and

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Speaker 5: that's the remarkable thing to be a part of.

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Speaker 2: Can I just tell you a story I just heard

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Speaker 2: from one of the directors of one of the projects

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Speaker 2: this morning. They have a client who got out of

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Speaker 2: prison after thirty two years and got out maybe four

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Speaker 2: or five months ago. Came to the conference last night.

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Speaker 2: As you were saying, there was an introduction of all

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Speaker 2: of the ex Honeries, including forty seven X Honeries who

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Speaker 2: had never been here before. And at the end of

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Speaker 2: that presentation and the whole crowd is standing and cheering

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Speaker 2: and crying and they're hugging each other on stage. Her

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Speaker 2: client walked down the stairs from the stage and said

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Speaker 2: to her this is the first time I felt free.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's heavy, and it's magical. I mean,

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Speaker 5: there's no other word to explain it. And yeah, it's

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Speaker 5: so great because every time one of them gets up

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Speaker 5: and the crowd erupts, nobody tells anybody to erupt, and

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Speaker 5: nobody tells anybody to stand, But it's a standing ovation

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Speaker 5: every time, and they're really among their peers, and they're

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Speaker 5: among people who love them and care about them as

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Speaker 5: we do. So it's a it's just an awesome thing.

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Speaker 5: What is that for the Innocence Project? I mean, how

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Speaker 5: have you been able to focus the staff who traditionally

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Speaker 5: were just focused on the legal stuff. How are you

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Speaker 5: able to build this into the sort of the deal

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Speaker 5: lack of a better word, the DNA of the Innocence Project.

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Speaker 2: One thing we had, you know, as we got more

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Speaker 2: and more people out about ten years ago. We actually

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Speaker 2: made the decision with our board that you're on to

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Speaker 2: hire a social worker, and we now have two social

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Speaker 2: workers who work in the office and each of them

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Speaker 2: works on cases as people are about to come home,

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Speaker 2: and then is a person for them to go to

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Speaker 2: and talk to over the course of you know, intensively,

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Speaker 2: probably the first year, but for some people they're still

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Speaker 2: talking often ten years later. We also have developed a

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Speaker 2: fund for Innocence Project exonarees who don't have resources or

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Speaker 2: have family without resources when they come out, so that

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Speaker 2: we can help pay for rent or medical care that's

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Speaker 2: not covered under state insurance schemes, or whatever the case

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Speaker 2: may be. And I think we're trying to get I know,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to get better and better at that every year,

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Speaker 2: and we're learning more and more from the exoneries themselves

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Speaker 2: about what it takes. And one of the things I

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Speaker 2: think it takes, and you talked about it at the beginning,

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Speaker 2: is bringing them together with each other more often. They

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Speaker 2: really are the people who are best able to help

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Speaker 2: each other heal. And we're realizing the importance of their

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Speaker 2: families and the importance of helping find support for their

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Speaker 2: family members because like the exonarees. The family members worked

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Speaker 2: for twelve years, for ten years, twenty years, thirty years,

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Speaker 2: when they stuck with them. They work to help get

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Speaker 2: somebody out. And if you've been on that course of

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Speaker 2: getting yourself out or helping someone else get out for

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Speaker 2: twenty years and then they're out, you have to find

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Speaker 2: the next course of purpose. And I think there's hope

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Speaker 2: for many people that it will just be glorious and

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Speaker 2: perfect and they'll be free. It's a thing they worked

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Speaker 2: at for so long. But life on the outside is hard, and.

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Speaker 5: The first question people want to know is do they

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Speaker 5: get compensation when they get out? And they're flabbergasset to

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Speaker 5: find out that not only are there I think twenty

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Speaker 5: states that don't have compensation statutes at all, but also

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Speaker 5: even if you are entitled the conversation, it can take

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Speaker 5: many years to get it. So you're just in the

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Speaker 5: twilight zone. Now you're out and trying to figure out

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Speaker 5: how to live with nothing, and it's an incredible series

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Speaker 5: of challenges. Let's just talk for a moment, Maddie about

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Speaker 5: the strategic litigation aspect of our work.

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Speaker 2: So we have two programs, and the strategic litigation program

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Speaker 2: is a pretty new program for the last five years,

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Speaker 2: although I like to think that the Innocence Project has

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Speaker 2: been doing it in maybe a less focused and concentrated

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Speaker 2: way forever. But the Strategic Litigation Unit, which was founded

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Speaker 2: five years ago by your generosity and that of your family,

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Speaker 2: run by Christopher Fabricant, who's a brilliant lawyer, really works

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Speaker 2: on getting the courts to understand their role as a

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Speaker 2: gatekeeper of bad evidence going into cases. And so the

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Speaker 2: Strategic Litigation Unit takes cases around the country where there

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Speaker 2: is bad forensic science is trying to be introduced, or

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Speaker 2: eyewitness identification procedures that were done in a way that's

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Speaker 2: not reliable and not likely to give you the best ID.

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Speaker 2: In fact, seventy five percent of the DNA cases have

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Speaker 2: had an eyewitness identification, which is erroneous. So we know

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Speaker 2: how important it is to get the ID procedures right,

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Speaker 2: and our team finds cases to teach courts about how

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Speaker 2: to vet evidence and to keep bad evidence out. If

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Speaker 2: we can keep bad evidence out of these cases in

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Speaker 2: the first place, then you'll never have people being wrongly

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Speaker 2: convicted until and lessen until the police and prosecutors and

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Speaker 2: the courts understand that at the front end and begin

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Speaker 2: to implement procedures and keep the evidence out of court.

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Speaker 2: We're going to continue to replicate the problems we have

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Speaker 2: with wrongful conviction and to put more people in. And

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Speaker 2: you said it yourself, it takes forever to get them out.

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Speaker 2: If somebody goes in and they exhaust their state appeals

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Speaker 2: eight years later, and then they write to us and

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Speaker 2: then we take their case and then we litigate the

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Speaker 2: case for ten or twelve or fifteen years. Sometimes heard

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Speaker 2: someone today who has a case that they picked up

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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine. It's twenty seventeen. The person was

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Speaker 2: just freed. That's an entire life. So we have to

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Speaker 2: stop it at the front end, and that's what the

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Speaker 2: Strategic Litigation Unit tries to do. The Joseph Flohm Special

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Speaker 2: Council has done amazing work in the courts to try

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Speaker 2: to protect people from having bad evidence admitted in the

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Speaker 2: first place in the courts. And that's what it's going

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Speaker 2: to take to really change the system.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I know that my dad, if he were here,

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Speaker 5: would be thrilled to see the quality of the work

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Speaker 5: that's being done in his name. He was a supporter

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Speaker 5: of the instant project, and Scadden of course has donated

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Speaker 5: tens of thousands of.

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Speaker 2: Millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of legal

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Speaker 2: brilliant legal talent and support to the.

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Speaker 5: Project, and they still do to this day. Recently, Keith

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Speaker 5: Allen Harward was freed after thirty three years in prison

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Speaker 5: in Virginia with the help of the pro Bone of

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Speaker 5: Department at Scatten in DC, run by Don Salzman. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: it just continues. Unfortunately, our work will never end. We'd

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Speaker 5: love to put ourselves out of business, but unfortunately that's

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Speaker 5: not going to happen in our lifetimes. Maddie Delone, it's

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Speaker 5: a pleasure to have you on the podcast today and

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Speaker 5: I really appreciate you stopping by and dropping some knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason, great to be here. Keep up the

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Speaker 2: great work.

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Speaker 5: So that was a great introduction to the conference from

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Speaker 5: my friend and partner in Fighting Injustice, Maddie the loan.

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Speaker 5: Let's continue with the one and only Floyd Bledsoell.

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Speaker 1: After spending sixteen years behind bars for a murder his

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Speaker 1: brother committed.

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Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety nine, fourteen year old Camille Arfman went

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Speaker 4: missing after getting off the bus from school Bledsoe's older brother,

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Speaker 4: Tom confessed several times to the murder and led police

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Speaker 4: to her body, but several days later, Tom Bledsoe changed

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Speaker 4: his story, pinning the murder on Floyd. New DNA evidence

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Speaker 4: in October of twenty fifteen implicated Tom Bledsoe.

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Speaker 6: Just over a month ago, Floyd Bledsoe's murder conviction was overturned.

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Speaker 5: Law enforcement a district coord agreeing he was an innocent man.

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Speaker 5: Floyd Bledsell, Welcome to the show. Thank you. Floyd is

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Speaker 5: an axonnery from Kansas who served.

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Speaker 7: Sixteen years sixteen years.

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Speaker 5: And you out there listening had just as much to

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Speaker 5: do with it as he did, that's fair to say.

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Speaker 5: And his attorney, Alice Craig is here. Alice, welcome, thank you,

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Speaker 5: thanks for being here. So we're here at the Innocent

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Speaker 5: Network conference in San Diego. Have you been to San

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Speaker 5: Diego before?

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Speaker 7: No, this is a very beautiful city.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's pretty. It's different than Kansas, very different than

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Speaker 5: Kansas and the Ocean. I I just can't even So

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Speaker 5: your case in a nutshell revolved around this rape and murder,

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Speaker 5: and it's so bizarre because this one came with instructions

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Speaker 5: right tragically, your brother was the culprit. And what makes

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Speaker 5: this so insane is that he went he confessed to

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Speaker 5: a religious figure, was a pastor or something, and then

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Speaker 5: he confessed to the police. Yes, and he provided the

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Speaker 5: murder weapon, told him where to find.

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Speaker 7: The body, took him to the body, took him to

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Speaker 7: the body.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Right, So you're probably having the same reaction I was,

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Speaker 5: which was okay, so thanks for telling us, and here's

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Speaker 5: your one way ticket to prison, right, I mean, but

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Speaker 5: that's not what happened.

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Speaker 7: No, can you walk us.

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Speaker 5: Through how you ended up being charged for a crime

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Speaker 5: that your brother had not only clearly committed, but had

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Speaker 5: confessed to in every conceivable way.

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Speaker 8: Right, and he had confessed to multiple times, multiple people

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Speaker 8: had heard him. Basically what happened On November seventh, at

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Speaker 8: about ten o'clock that evening, he went to the police station,

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Speaker 8: made a phone call to the pastor of the church. Said, Hey,

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Speaker 8: this is Tom.

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Speaker 7: I'm sorry. I lied to you.

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Speaker 8: I know where she is. I'm going to turn myself in.

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Speaker 8: He says, I wish I could have turned back to

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Speaker 8: hands of time, but I can't. And then he said,

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Speaker 8: please help my parents through this, and then he hung up.

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Speaker 8: Called our father, and then called Jim back again and

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Speaker 8: left basically the same message, saying that he wished he

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Speaker 8: hadn't done it, wish he could have turned back to

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Speaker 8: hands of time, but he made his choice. He's going

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Speaker 8: to pay for it for the rest of his life,

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Speaker 8: and that mom and dad were mad at him, and

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Speaker 8: he was turning himself in. He asked the church to

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Speaker 8: forgive him, God to forgive him, and they took him

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Speaker 8: to get int Arney. Then the attorney went to the

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Speaker 8: police department. His attorney told him that Tom knows where

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Speaker 8: the girl is, and then the police went with him

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Speaker 8: to where the body was.

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Speaker 7: He showed him.

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Speaker 8: The detectives testified at trial that the area was so

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Speaker 8: well concealed and only the true perpetrator would have known.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't a lucky guest. No, No.

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Speaker 7: And it was the middle of the night, dark.

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Speaker 5: And he had just bought the gun, and he had

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Speaker 5: just bought the the gun.

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Speaker 7: Two weeks prior. So much stuff.

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Speaker 5: This was literally the easiest case in the history of

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Speaker 5: criminal justice for the authorities. Alice, would you disagree with that?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 6: I wouldn't.

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Speaker 5: I mean this was it like, I mean, it's gift

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Speaker 5: wrapped right.

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Speaker 8: They charged him with murder that Monday. Three or four

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Speaker 8: days later, he decides he doesn't like jail and says

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Speaker 8: he didn't do it, that his brother did it, which

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Speaker 8: was me. So the police they were like, well, how

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Speaker 8: did you know all this stuff? He said, well, he

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Speaker 8: confessed to me on the side of the road. Detective

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Speaker 8: Carino says, okay, that's plausible and says when Tom says

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Speaker 8: two thirty in the afternoon, Randy says, are you sure?

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Speaker 8: And this is all said in my trial. Randy says

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Speaker 8: are you sure? And Tom says, yep, I'm positive.

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Speaker 7: Had to be two thirty.

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Speaker 8: Randy told admitted a trial that he told Tom that

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Speaker 8: he was lying and Tom said, no, I'm not. He goes, yeah,

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Speaker 8: you are. You want to know how I know you're lying?

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Speaker 8: He was like, how he said Floyd was sitting in

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Speaker 8: my patrol car two thirty in the afternoon, and Tom said, well,

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Speaker 8: must have been earlier. Randy admitted to giving Tom facts

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Speaker 8: to make his story more believable.

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Speaker 7: At my trial.

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Speaker 5: The whole thing is just like, actually, I mean, and

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Speaker 5: there's so much I mean, I guess basically.

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Speaker 8: It comes down to people getting tunnel vision, people making mistakes,

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Speaker 8: poor detective work, stuff that should have been investigated they

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Speaker 8: didn't look at. And then you throw Tom's defense attorney,

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Speaker 8: who you know, his job is to get his client

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Speaker 8: off and he means necessary within the law, supposedly. And

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Speaker 8: so I don't think we know the true reason why

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Speaker 8: everything went the way did. But ultimately, with his attorneys

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Speaker 8: and help and poor investigation, things flipped. They arrested me,

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Speaker 8: they claim on November fifteenth, but when they interviewed me

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Speaker 8: on November eleventh, I believe it was twelveth somewhere running there.

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Speaker 8: They had me in the holding cell, wouldn't let me leave.

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Speaker 8: They told my wife or my ex wife, but my

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Speaker 8: wife then that they didn't know where I was. They

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Speaker 8: said he got in a car and left. When she said, well,

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Speaker 8: his car's out front, they told her he left. We

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Speaker 8: don't know where he went. I was in their holding cell.

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Speaker 5: The whole thing is totally set.

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Speaker 8: You know, for four days, nobody knew where I was

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Speaker 8: except them, And then finally, after the press got a

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Speaker 8: hold of it, then they.

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Speaker 7: Charged me with for sugar murder.

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Speaker 8: And then I went to trial. I had poor representation

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Speaker 8: and got found guilty. The Tippeek at Capitol Journal interviewed

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Speaker 8: an individual who was on the jury member and he said,

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Speaker 8: we didn't know who did it, but this was our

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Speaker 8: opportunity to make somebody pay. I guess we made a mistake.

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Speaker 8: Sixteen years that's a mistake.

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Speaker 5: I guess We'm interesting. We just had somebody paid, just

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Speaker 5: picked somebody out of the phone book, and just you know,

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Speaker 5: I mean in this case, it was just you know, Alice,

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Speaker 5: what a crazy turn of events. I mean, ultimately Floyd

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Speaker 5: was exonerated, right, and Alice, how did the exoneration come about?

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Speaker 6: So Floyd's case is one of those cases that I

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Speaker 6: think every lawyer who looked at it was really interested

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Speaker 6: in and wanted to help. None of us were going

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Speaker 6: to let go of it. My clinic at k Law School,

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Speaker 6: the Innocence Project there, we took his case on. We

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Speaker 6: probably started working on your case in two thousand and

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Speaker 6: five and went to federal court. And the interesting thing

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Speaker 6: with the federal habeas that we did is that the

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Speaker 6: federal district judge when we filed our habeas, actually ruled

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Speaker 6: in Floyd's favor and issued an opinion that essentially said

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Speaker 6: Floyd was innocent. And this conviction couldn't stand. Once he

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Speaker 6: did that, Floyd said, well, can I be released? And

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Speaker 6: I guess So we asked the federal court to release

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Speaker 6: him while the state appealed, and they did so. Floyd

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Speaker 6: was actually out for a year. That was probably the

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Speaker 6: nine months that was probably the hardest thing for us.

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Speaker 6: The state appealed his case to the Tenth Circuit. I

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Speaker 6: remember when we were about to argue in the Tenth Circuit.

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Speaker 6: I was talking to the state's attorney before we walked

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Speaker 6: up to the podium, and he said to me, we

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Speaker 6: don't think Floyd did it, but we have to protect

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Speaker 6: our jury verdict.

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Speaker 5: Okay, well, let's just think about that for a second.

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Speaker 5: We don't think he did it, but the jury verdict

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Speaker 5: is more important than justice or one person's them and

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Speaker 5: liberty and all that in pursuit of happening to all

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Speaker 5: that stuff is all out the window because we need

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Speaker 5: to protect our jury theoretic because it's a sort of quoint.

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Speaker 6: Well, actually, what gets worse is we lost in the

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Speaker 6: Tenth Circuit because of the standard of review, and the

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Speaker 6: Tenth Circuit said, we're not going to overturn this. Kansas

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Speaker 6: State courts and so we lost and they reversed the

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Speaker 6: federal district judge and I had to call Floyd and

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Speaker 6: tell me how to go back to prison.

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Speaker 5: But then you got them out. We're sitting here.

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Speaker 6: So at that point in time, we filed for DNA testing,

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Speaker 6: and one of our concerns was that the investigation that

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Speaker 6: was originally done, and I think it goes back to

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Speaker 6: what you said at the very beginning that this seemed

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Speaker 6: to be a slam dunk case. So a lot of

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Speaker 6: investigation that should have been done wasn't done. And our

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Speaker 6: biggest concern, I think, was whether or not there'd be

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Speaker 6: evidence to test. That was the largest concern we had.

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Speaker 8: And they actually told me over and over again. They

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Speaker 8: were like, look, we can't go back and fix bad

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Speaker 8: detective work. You can't because we're talking at that time.

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Speaker 7: It was twelve years, yeah, twelve years later.

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Speaker 8: You know, it's not like you can just walk back

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Speaker 8: even a few months and see everything because a lot

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Speaker 8: changes in twelve years.

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Speaker 5: And by the way, and there's no way to tell

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Speaker 5: this story in short of a time as we have

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Speaker 5: here because it's too twisted. But on top of everything else,

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Speaker 5: we can't leave out a couple of important details one

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Speaker 5: is that your dad got involved. At the trial, he

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Speaker 5: testified in favor of your brother, saying that he, you know,

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Speaker 5: he gave him an alibi, He created all kinds of

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Speaker 5: phony alibis and stuff like that, which is so it's

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Speaker 5: like something out of Shakespeare, right, or a Greek tragedy.

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Speaker 5: We find out later that he was actually protecting himself

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Speaker 5: because he helped with covering up and disposing of the

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Speaker 5: body and all that stuff. And yes, he didn't want,

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Speaker 5: you know, he didn't want to go to jail.

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Speaker 8: Well, when we pulled the DNA, that's when we've discovered

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Speaker 8: obviously one of the motives for him to wanting to

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Speaker 8: cover for Tom so hard.

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Speaker 5: Right, And the DNA proved conclusively that not only weren't

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Speaker 5: you the culprit, but that in fact the perpetrator, but

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Speaker 5: in fact it was your brother, and that your dad's

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Speaker 5: DNA was found on her socks, on the victim socks.

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Speaker 5: Because this theory there is that he helped to drag her.

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Speaker 5: It sounds grotesque to the graveside or whatever, and of

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Speaker 5: course that's a crime as well. In protecting himself, he

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Speaker 5: managed to flip the script and get his innocent son

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Speaker 5: sentenced for murder while his guilty son stayed out. And

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Speaker 5: then to wrap up the crazy, right, as if all

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Speaker 5: this wasn't crazy enough, he killed himself. He did right,

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Speaker 5: and he left three suicide notes in which he said,

436
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 5: in case anybody wasn't listening the first time, he said

437
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 5: it again, that he did it, that you didn't, that

438
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 5: he was the sole perpetrator.

439
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 7: That he has sent an innocent person to prison.

440
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 5: His own brother, right, who's sitting here with me right now.

441
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 5: So we hear at the Innoc's Network conference in San Diego,

442
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 5: a weekend of healing and hope and strength, and you

443
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 5: are a shine example of all of those things. I mean,

444
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 5: if you could see and meet Floyd, you know, he's

445
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 5: just sort of a I mean, you'd never know, you know,

446
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 5: he looks like a guy who won the damn lottery,

447
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. And so that's the way

448
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 5: he carries himself, which always, I mean all respect to you.

449
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 5: I'm always amazed at the joy and grace that the

450
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 5: Xneries exhibit. And you're as good of an example as

451
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 5: anyone could be. So let's talk about how you got

452
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 5: from there to hear right, because you come out of prison,

453
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 5: but it ain't so easy after that, is it? No?

454
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 8: You know, when an xonerary comes out of prison, they

455
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 8: don't have much, if anything at all. Kansas does not

456
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 8: have any compensation laws. I'll speak for Kansas because that's

457
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 8: what I know. After sixteen years, you make a dollar

458
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,600
Speaker 8: five a day, and that's only if you work the job.

459
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 8: The days you don't work, you don't get paid.

460
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 5: Dollar five a day, right, you know, and most and

461
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 5: less one more time and no compensation laws and no

462
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 5: compensation right. One of the twenty states that has only five.

463
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 7: Days for eight hours. Put that on a credit report, right,

464
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 7: you know, almost your last shob dollar five a day.

465
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 5: Five days a week, and it sounds a lot like

466
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 5: five twenty five a week. You know, exactly you made

467
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 5: five and twenty five dollars a week. No, not exactly.

468
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 8: And so when we come out, you know, the clothes

469
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 8: that you see, you know, when I was coming out

470
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 8: of the Jefferson County Courthouse, the final shirt of jeans

471
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 8: and the shoes that was bought by my attorneys. I

472
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 8: had an aunt and an uncle and a few family members,

473
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 8: but my aunt and uncle stuck by me for the

474
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 8: whole sixteen years.

475
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 5: And let's not leave out of this your kids, right,

476
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 5: because when you went in and they became victims.

477
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 8: Till I had two boys and a wife, she got

478
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 8: divorced because obviously, you know, it was her sister in

479
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 8: law or it was her sister, and she had the

480
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 8: police and the county attorney was telling her all this stuff,

481
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 8: lying to her, you know, lying to the family. She

482
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 8: took my kids from me, filed to have my rights removed.

483
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 8: The I saw I saw my kids prior to my

484
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 8: release was November twelfth, at one point thirty in the

485
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 8: afternoon of nineteen ninety nine. I gave Cody, who was

486
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 8: two and a half at that time, and Christian, who

487
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 8: was nine months. I kissed in a hug and said

488
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,880
Speaker 8: I'll be back in a couple hours, and I never

489
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 8: came back. And then for sixteen years I didn't see them.

490
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,160
Speaker 8: You know, I wrote letters, you know, I had a

491
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 8: nice stack of letters wrote to them when I first started.

492
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 7: Every day, every day I'd.

493
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 8: Write and say I'm coming, Oh, I'll be homes on

494
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 8: their birthday, Christmas, everything.

495
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 7: You tried not to lose.

496
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 8: Hope, and ultimately, after a while I gave up for

497
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 8: writing because I had no place to send the letters

498
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 8: nobody to read to the boys, to tell them, Hey,

499
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 8: I love you, I'm thinking of you. I haven't forgot

500
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 8: for sixteen years. I never once forgot my kids. I

501
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 8: got a lot of friends that are still in prison,

502
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 8: most of them are rightfully there. And I remember once,

503
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,879
Speaker 8: right before I got released for that short time in

504
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 8: two thousand and eight, you know, he was like, Floyd,

505
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 8: do you ever think you'll ever be.

506
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 7: Able to see your kids?

507
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 8: And I said, well, someday I'll be able to see them.

508
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 8: Most people were like, you're crazy, You're crazy. You're never

509
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 8: going to get out. You keep saying the same thing

510
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 8: week after week. And finally in twenty and sixteen, in April,

511
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 8: I saw my kids. What was that like, Well, they're

512
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 8: much taller. Cody's six almost six y two and Christians

513
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 8: five eleven.

514
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 5: Wow, because you're not a tall man too. They're in

515
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 5: towering over you.

516
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 7: Yeah.

517
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 5: You know, you left them as these little babies, and

518
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 5: now you're looking up at them.

519
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 7: Yep.

520
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 8: And you know what, there's no two people on this

521
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 8: or that I'd rather look up to than those two boys.

522
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 5: And they're doing good now in spite of this terrible

523
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 5: childhood that they had to endure without their dad and

524
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 5: with this being fed these lies and believing that their

525
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 5: dad was a child rapist and a murderer, right, And

526
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 5: you know what a way to grow up that is.

527
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 5: So somehow or other, you persevered in prison, even with

528
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 5: this added burden of not being able to contact your kids.

529
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 5: And you can see. I mean, I'm looking in your

530
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 5: eyes right now, and the pain is it. It's unreal. And

531
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 5: as a parent, and I'm sure a lot of people

532
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 5: that are out there listening have kids, I'm sure you can,

533
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 5: you know, try to imagine what that would be like.

534
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 5: But we can't imagine. And that's what's so powerful about

535
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 5: this conference. I believe it's being able to get people

536
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 5: together who have had similar experiences and you would know

537
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 5: better that.

538
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 8: Last year was my first conference in San Antonio. I'd

539
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 8: been out twelve weeks. Twelve weeks, and you know, I

540
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 8: show up here and you're just starstruck because in Kansas

541
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 8: you feel like you're all alone. But then you get here.

542
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 8: Last year there was one hundred and fifty three Eggsonneries

543
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 8: that had been in the same boat. I remember sitting

544
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 8: down and eating with Amanda Knox and Ryan Ferguson and finally,

545
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 8: you don't have to explain how you feel because they

546
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 8: already know. You don't have to answer all the questions

547
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 8: of well what do you mean by that? It don't

548
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 8: even have to be spoken because we've been through the

549
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 8: same or the similar ways. We've all learned how to cope,

550
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 8: and you learn how to persevere through it. And there's

551
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 8: so much healing, so much renewal here. I've been looking

552
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 8: forward to it since when I got back to Kansas

553
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 8: City last year, you know, I was looking forward to

554
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 8: the next one because you learn that there's people.

555
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 5: Just like you. Yeah, Unfortunately, there's thousands of them, and

556
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 5: there's then there's tens or hundreds of thousands that are

557
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 5: still in the numbers are truly mind boggling. Yeah, for me,

558
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 5: it's just an honor and a privilege to be here

559
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 5: and be amongst you and the you know, and the

560
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 5: other men and women who have so overcome such impossible

561
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 5: challenges and odds and tragedies and trauma. To be here

562
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 5: and be speaking for the people who are still in really,

563
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 5: when you think about it, right, and for each other

564
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 5: and stand it up for each other like you do.

565
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 8: And that's some of the stuff that I do now

566
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 8: is I go to the Kansas Legislature and try to

567
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 8: get the laws change to ensure that it doesn't happen.

568
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 8: You know, I've spoke on the on the Mandatory Recording

569
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 8: Act for Kansas, the recording of interrogation, right, That's one

570
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 8: of the biggest causes was you would think that if

571
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 8: you have somebody can that you would.

572
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 7: Record it, right.

573
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 5: I was not smart to me.

574
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 8: Jefferson County did not. They did not do any recordings

575
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 8: of Tom until November twenty fourth or twenty fifth.

576
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 5: It just doesn't make any sense.

577
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 7: Everybody else they recorded right off the bat.

578
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 5: It's just it's like Alison Wanslan, It's just like through

579
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 5: the looking lass. It's just backwards and upside down and

580
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 5: inside out. It's nothing that they did make any sense.

581
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 5: And I will say for myself, and I think I'm

582
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 5: speaking for ninety some percent of the people that are listening,

583
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 5: that if we weren't hearing this from your mouth, the

584
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 5: story just you know, if I tell this story to someone,

585
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 5: they're going to go, no, no, no, you got something wrong there,

586
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 5: because it doesn't work like that. It can't work like that.

587
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 5: I mean, Alice, you must have the same feeling like

588
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 5: it's just totally fucking bizarre.

589
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 6: This case is very bizarre, but it's not the only one.

590
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 6: And I think that's the sad truth of it is.

591
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 6: Floyd and I have been working together for so long,

592
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 6: but there's other people that we're going to continue to

593
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 6: as a team try and get out.

594
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 5: We all have of the shared responsibility, and I think

595
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 5: everyone who's listening hopefully will feel the same sense and

596
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 5: want to get involved and help, because you can't be

597
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: around somebody like you, Floyd and not feel like Jesus,

598
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 5: that could have been me, because it really could have

599
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 5: been any of us. Right, You're just a regular guy.

600
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 5: You weren't some career criminal or some sinister like dark

601
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 5: force of just a regular guy going about your life

602
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 5: with a couple of young kids in the middle of America,

603
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 5: you know, just a regular guy.

604
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 7: I was working for a drry, just trying to raise

605
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 7: my kids on.

606
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 5: The farm, right, and then this, Right, And it's just

607
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 5: so weird how when the forces of justice they start

608
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 5: to churn and they just grind people up, and it's

609
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 5: only a miracle that somebody like you can actually survive

610
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 5: this ordeal and come out in one piece with a

611
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 5: smile on your face. I see how you light up

612
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 5: when you're talking about your kids. So now they're twenty

613
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 5: and eighteen. Yes, and they're tall enough to be a

614
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 5: basketball players and they're doing good. Yes, if you want

615
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 5: to talk about that a little bit, sure, a little bit,

616
00:31:59,480 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 5: go ahead.

617
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 8: But he's just enlisted in the army. He's going into intelligence.

618
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 8: He just finished basic training. He's on his way to

619
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 8: go for extended training for intelligence. Christian is a senior

620
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 8: in high school. He'll be graduating in May, going to

621
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 8: fire fighter school.

622
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,239
Speaker 5: Amazing, So you got you got a soldier and a

623
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 5: fireman yep. And are you close to the kids now?

624
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 7: Yes?

625
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 8: I try to get up there at least once a

626
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 8: month to see him. Cody will be a little harder

627
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 8: because now he's out here, but we stay in contact.

628
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 5: Now.

629
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 8: I do animal portraits, painting and stuff like that.

630
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 6: Uh, Floyd learned painting.

631
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 5: People see that.

632
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 6: You must actually exhibiting right now at the Johnson County

633
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 6: Public Library.

634
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 8: Yes, and it'll be on exhibit till May fifteenth.

635
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 5: But is there a website people can go if they

636
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 5: want to just see it, because a lot of people

637
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 5: can't get to the.

638
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 7: Tonight now yet. You know, I hope to have it

639
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 7: up here pretty quick.

640
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 5: You let us know when you do it, we'll we'll

641
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 5: put it on our site and people can be able

642
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 5: to find the Floyd Bloods or maybe you'll turn out

643
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 5: to be the next who knows Homer Winslow or something

644
00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 5: like that, you know.

645
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 8: And then I got married November nineteenth last year.

646
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: Congraduations.

647
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 8: She has a seventeen month old So I have a

648
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 8: stepson that's seventeen months Blake, and he's a ball.

649
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 5: So it's actually kind of a full circle, now, isn't it.

650
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 5: Right now you got your kids back. You actually have

651
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 5: a young son who's really almost about the same age

652
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 5: as one of your kids was when you went in.

653
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 5: So it's really a redo. I mean, what a difference

654
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 5: to see somebody like you, who would have been literally

655
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 5: rotting and suffering in prison for the rest of your

656
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 5: life if not for the fact that good people like

657
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 5: Alice and others that donate almost all of their time

658
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 5: to the cause had come to the rescue and had

659
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: ultimately proven that what should have been obvious to the

660
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 5: authorities all along and really was obvious, you know.

661
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,959
Speaker 8: And I remember just before we filed for the DNA.

662
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 8: I would call Alice and Jeane and Beth.

663
00:33:58,560 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 7: They'd give me the answer.

664
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 8: We don't know what we're going to do, but we'll

665
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 8: figure out something. It was like, we hit this big

666
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 8: little stone wall, and I wrote in the thinking card

667
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 8: to the d NKU and I said, when you're instructors

668
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 8: and your students hitting the stone wall.

669
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 7: They didn't give up and turn around.

670
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 8: They picked up the chisel, they picked up the hammer,

671
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 8: and they made away. And that's exactly what they did.

672
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 8: They gave me my life back.

673
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't make it easy for anyone to get

674
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 5: out of prison. I mean, even with extremely talented attorneys

675
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 5: and advocates, which you were in that sense lucky to have.

676
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 5: A lot of people don't even have that. It's still

677
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 5: almost impossible task because they just keep putting up roadbloxed because,

678
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 5: like you said, Alice, they want to protect the jury

679
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 5: verdict or the wrongful prosecution or the wrong whatever the

680
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 5: hell it is. And it's so weird. It's like why

681
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 5: why why why? No? This is simple, right, everybody needs

682
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 5: to know who really did it.

683
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 6: It's hard to convince people. Even when we filed the

684
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 6: DNA reports in Floyd's case, the investigators for Jefferson County

685
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 6: that were reinvestigating it said, well, this doesn't mean Floyd

686
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 6: didn't do it or wasn't involved, and it wasn't really

687
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 6: until Tom committed suicide that they were convinced that was

688
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 6: the only thing that did it. If we hadn't had

689
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 6: that would probably still.

690
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 5: Be litigating it. Sounds like if you would have had

691
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 5: pictures and photographs of the crime taking place and a

692
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 5: timestamped video of you being somewhere else doing something else,

693
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 5: they still would have went, well, yeah, they would have

694
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 5: come up with it, because we've seen that. I mean,

695
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 5: they come up with theories that are just a first

696
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 5: grader would go that don't make any sense, But they do,

697
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 5: and they did, and you're the living proof of it.

698
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 5: But now you're here, so San Diego, what are you

699
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 5: going to do? Well, now you're saying going surfing, what

700
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 5: do you do out here?

701
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 8: Well, Kansas, guys, I've always wanted to write a jet ski,

702
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 8: So I'm trying to convince people to write a jet

703
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 8: ski with me. But they're not really him because they're like,

704
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 8: it's kind of cold in the morning, but hey, what's

705
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 8: a little hyperthermia. You know it'll wear off eventually, you know, but.

706
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 5: Well, I'm gonna make sure you get on a jet

707
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 5: skip if I have to go with you.

708
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 8: So I got the chance to go to La Jolla

709
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 8: to see the sea lions, uh huh. And those are

710
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 8: so awesome because you're just a few feet away. You

711
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 8: can almost walk right up to them. I wouldn't recommend

712
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 8: petting them because they kind of growl at you, but

713
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 8: it's amazing.

714
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, they don't have those in Kansas right now. So

715
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 5: I really appreciate you being here. I know it's not easy.

716
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: I appreciate you being here, and also you being here,

717
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 5: so I appreciate you being in San Diego at the conference.

718
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 5: I appreciate you being a really remarkable beacon of light

719
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 5: and hope. And I really appreciate both of you being

720
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 5: guests on this very special edition of Wrongful Conviction with

721
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 5: Jason Flomm from the Innocent Network conference, where we are

722
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 5: generating so much positive energy that we could probably light

723
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 5: up at least a mid size city. Once again, Lloyd Alice,

724
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: thank you for being here. It's been an extraordinary experience

725
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 5: for me. And now let's have some fun sounds grew.

726
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 8: Thank you.

727
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 5: It's my pleasure, my honor actually to introduce a friend

728
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 5: of mine for many years, an incredible man, Cornelius Duprix.

729
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 5: He maintains and projects an incredible positive attitude and great energy,

730
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 5: and that's why he's now an ambassador to the new

731
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 5: ex hoonnaies, helping them adapt to life on the outside.

732
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 9: In nineteen eighty, Cornelius dupre was sentenced to seventy five

733
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 9: years for aggravated robbery.

734
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 1: Cornelius Dupree Junior was just nineteen years old when he

735
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: first went to jail.

736
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 9: The crime included abduction and rate. He has served the

737
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 9: longest prison term of any Texas inmate ever cleared through

738
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,760
Speaker 9: DNA evidence. Pre was released last July on parole after

739
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 9: thirty years behind bars. One week later, DNA test results

740
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 9: proved his innocence.

741
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 5: Cornelius, Welcome to the show.

742
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me here.

743
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 5: So Cornelius, your story is remarkable in the fact that

744
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 5: you served thirty one years in prison, that's correct for

745
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 5: a crime you had nothing to do with, had no

746
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 5: knowledge of, and no involvement with.

747
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: That's correct.

748
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 5: And this was a crime, I mean, the length of

749
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 5: your sentence is extraordinary and unusual even among the axgoneries.

750
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 5: But the causes of your wrongful conviction are common. You

751
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:44,280
Speaker 5: were a victim of wrongful identification and to some extent racism,

752
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 5: I would say, right, And I want to talk about

753
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 5: this with wrongful convictions that are based on misidentifications, which

754
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 5: is the most common cause of wrongful conviction. It's been

755
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 5: proven scientifically that the least accurate form of eywouldness identification

756
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 5: is crossration. Yes, and in this case, and I want

757
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 5: to go back to it all those years ago, in

758
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 5: nineteen seventy nine, right, that's correct, That seems like another century.

759
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 5: It was another century actually, and two white people in Dallas,

760
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 5: Texas were robbed. It was a couple and the woman

761
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 5: was sexually assaulted by two black men. And you and

762
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 5: a buddy were out. What were you doing that night?

763
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 3: We were on our way to a party, and they

764
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: had house parties back then.

765
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: He and I.

766
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: Decided earlier the day that we was going to attend

767
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 3: this party, you know, foo blocks away from where our

768
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: parents lived. We lived with our parents at that time,

769
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: So about maybe ten thirty eleven o'clock at night, we

770
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: proceeded on to attend the party. And before us we

771
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,839
Speaker 3: acknowledged that there was a couple of squad cars.

772
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 1: You know, just sitting there.

773
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,479
Speaker 3: So we proceeded on to go to the party, and

774
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: the cops they stopped us and asked us where we

775
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 3: were going, and we told them we was on our

776
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 3: way to the party, and they at that point asked

777
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: us to get up against the car and they frished

778
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 3: us and find a bag of weed, marijuana and a

779
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 3: little darrin of pistol which my co defendant had. So

780
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: they proceeded to frish us to try to find more

781
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 3: stuff out. Soon then we really thought, you know, we

782
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 3: were in trouble for the marijuana and the little gun,

783
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 3: you know, a little pistol and whatnot.

784
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: So we were thinking that we were going.

785
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: To go to jail and possibly get out. You know,

786
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 3: we were probationists. I was kind of borderline, you know, juvenile,

787
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 3: young adult, you know. I guess they could have made

788
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: it a felony, you know, a dult felt in the case.

789
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 5: Because you were twenty at the time, right.

790
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 3: Well, no, I was ninety, yes, nineteen turning twenty. So

791
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: I was kind of borderline, I think. Yeah, I was

792
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:42,959
Speaker 3: an adult straight across the border.

793
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: I was an adult. He was a young juvenile.

794
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 5: Right, And to be fair, as the seventies. Everybody was

795
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 5: carrying back then.

796
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, y, yes, that was the thing.

797
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,959
Speaker 5: But the pistol, you know, a couple of young black

798
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 5: eyes and Texas with a pistol. The cops don't They

799
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 5: don't like that.

800
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's correct.

801
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: And were they white cops, Yes they were. They were

802
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: white cops from an all black neighborhood.

803
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 5: But you had no idea that this robbery, this sexual

804
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 5: assault had taken place, not in the general vicinity.

805
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: No.

806
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: Again, I come from an all black neighborhood. You know,

807
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 3: it's all black. And from what I gathered, this incident

808
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 3: happened man a few miles away, which was another neighborhood.

809
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: I guess at a convenience.

810
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: Store something like that. I'm not really for sure. I mean,

811
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 3: I don't know anything about it. All I know is

812
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 3: they stopped us, asked us where we were going, and

813
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 3: put the cuffs on us, and then proceeded to taking

814
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 3: us to the count of jail.

815
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,399
Speaker 5: And then things went really wrong. Yes, sir, you were

816
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 5: not a rich guy. No, so you couldn't afford to hire,

817
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 5: not by a long shot. Right, So you had a

818
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 5: public defender, Yes, I did, And the evidence against you

819
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 5: really they had no physical evidence, no, because if they

820
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 5: had it, they would have had to lie about that

821
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 5: because you weren't there. So the only evidence they had against.

822
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: You was the marijuana and the pistol, but.

823
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 5: That had nothing to do with the client that you

824
00:41:59,120 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 5: were convicted of.

825
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: Well, they used it as I mean, because I guess

826
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: the guy was robbed. I mean, I guess that would

827
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 3: have took a pistol or something of that sort.

828
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 5: Well, but at the same time, I mean, how many

829
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 5: people have pistols. We know there's more guns in America

830
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 5: than our people, and back then in Texas, I imagine

831
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 5: a lot of people are carrying guns. That doesn't prove

832
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 5: you assaulted and raped and robed anybody. But there was

833
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 5: no physical evidence. There was no biological evidence. There was

834
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 5: no sperm or hares or anything else that could have

835
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 5: connected you to this crime, which was since it was

836
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 5: a crime that was physical in nature, that evidence would

837
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 5: have existed and would have been able to be tested.

838
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,479
Speaker 5: There wasn't DNA technology back then, but there was enough

839
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 5: blood type or this or that that they could have tested,

840
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 5: and if they had, they would have learned that you

841
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 5: were not the guys that did it. Again, it comes

842
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 5: back to they had circumstantial evidence, which is, here's these

843
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:50,839
Speaker 5: two black guys. There's a lot of black guys though, right,

844
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 5: And here's a little gun, right, yes, And I don't

845
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 5: want to minimize that as a gun. The weed has

846
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 5: nothing to do with anything, right. And then they have

847
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 5: these two white people, this couple who made a mistake.

848
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 5: I don't think they wanted to identify the wrong pripall.

849
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 5: I'm sure they wanted to do it right. But we

850
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 5: know now and they knew to an extent then that

851
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 5: I went identification it's such an imperfect thing. And then

852
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 5: of course there's all the stuff that happened at the

853
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 5: police station and the ways that these procedures aren't conducted,

854
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 5: whether it's mug shots or lineups or any other thing.

855
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 5: We know that there's a lot of there's been a

856
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 5: lot of improvement since then, and the Innists Project has

857
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 5: been behind a lot of those. But there's a lot

858
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 5: still that has to be done to help to diminish

859
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 5: the number of wrongful identifications. But in your case, I'm

860
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 5: guessing that most of those procedures weren't followed. They had

861
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 5: a couple of guys, they probably felt a lot of pressure.

862
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 5: This is a crime that, particularly in the South. Nineteen

863
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 5: seventy nine, a couple of white people getting sexually assaulted

864
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 5: by a couple of black men. They want to get

865
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 5: this off their desk, right, They're probably a lot of

866
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 5: pressure probably coming from the top, get this solid. And

867
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 5: they got a couple of guys and you were one

868
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 5: of them. You go to trial. Did you still believe

869
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 5: that the system was going to function correct?

870
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 1: Well, I have to say no in that regards.

871
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 5: As the trial went on, were you becoming more I mean,

872
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 5: obviously you had to be scared, but were you said

873
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 5: you were a believer in the system, And a lot

874
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 5: of the guys that I've interviewed on the show and

875
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 5: women have said, yeah, I thought that justice would be

876
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 5: done because this doesn't happen. But in your case, when

877
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 5: the jury went out, were you expecting that they would

878
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 5: convict you and send you to seventy five years in

879
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 5: present like they did?

880
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: Well, that was like my whole cart. It was like

881
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: I knew I was innocent. I know nothing about this

882
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: case in which they were allegend that I committed, and

883
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 3: so all I had was the system. So I sit

884
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 3: in the count of jail or waiting trial so that

885
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 3: I can come and sit before the accuser. I really

886
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: didn't know how the trial system work. I felt that

887
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 3: once I go to trial, I would sit before the

888
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: cue and they would actually see me and say that's

889
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: the wrong guy.

890
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: But that's not how it went.

891
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 5: That didn't happen. And then the jury went out and

892
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 5: they came back in, and then the worst possible result happened. Yes,

893
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 5: guilty verdict. Was your family in the courtroom? What was

894
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 5: that moment? Like? How did you even deal with it?

895
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 3: They did not let my family in the courtroom. They

896
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 3: stopped him at the back of the court and for whatever.

897
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 1: Reason did not allow them in.

898
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: I was not allowed to testify due to the public

899
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 3: offender that I had told me that it'd be to

900
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 3: my best interest not to take the stand because they were.

901
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 1: Going to make me look like a you know, a

902
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: hootlum or something like.

903
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 5: This sort public business.

904
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: Yes, and they were.

905
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: Saying that it was the burden of proof was on

906
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: them to prove that I was guilty. That I didn't

907
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 3: have to take the stand and to prove my innocence

908
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 3: and it being naive, you know, to the law, I said, well,

909
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 3: I'm innocent, and I felt like, okay, I really didn't know.

910
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 3: So I sit there and once I made that decision,

911
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 3: they ate more lunch.

912
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 5: So you got cuvict you got sentenced to seventy five

913
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 5: years in prison, and your co defender was sentenced to life.

914
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 5: And then so many years went by and eventually you

915
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 5: found out about the Innocence Project. Had you given up

916
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 5: hope by this point or like, you know, you were

917
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 5: in for decades already by the time that over two decades.

918
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 3: No, no, uh, I never given up hope. I always

919
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 3: felt that someday I was going to be released. I

920
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 3: just didn't know when that day was gonna come.

921
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 5: Because with the seventy five year sentence, they were going

922
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 5: to carry you out of there in the box. Yes, possibility,

923
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 5: that was the only way you were getting out. But

924
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 5: so you wrote a letter to the Innocence Project in

925
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 5: two thousand and seven, and obviously we took your case

926
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 5: and that was the inn Project New York, and then

927
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 5: things started to really turn your way.

928
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: Yes, it was actually after the O. J. Simpson trial.

929
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 3: It was a big trial and whatnot, And I think

930
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: that's somewhere along there they became kind of well known,

931
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 3: you know, DNA and whatnot, and uh, I was one

932
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 3: who was very active in the law library, the rich

933
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 3: rooms in the prison system. And one of the guys

934
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 3: who know that I was working on my case and

935
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 3: trying to get out, told me about DNA the introduced

936
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 3: you know, told me about the ensign project and that

937
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: that was some information that I could use concern the

938
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: NSIN project in DNA.

939
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 1: And so I sit in my cell and I.

940
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: Had to figure out a way because I know I

941
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: was in jail for robbery that didn't consist of DNA.

942
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: I was never charged of the rape case.

943
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 3: It was dismissed, right, And so when he told me

944
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 3: about the DNA and the Innocent project, I had to

945
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 3: figure out a way in which I could write this

946
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 3: letter to the Niscient Project explaining to them that I

947
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 3: was in prison for a robber that I didn't commit,

948
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 3: but in the course of this rob but that was

949
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 3: also a rape case that occurred that I was never

950
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 3: tried for they dismissed, and that if you go back

951
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 3: and open up that rape case and do a DNA

952
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 3: on it, it's going to show that I didn't I'm

953
00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 3: not the perpetrator who raped the lady.

954
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: And if I didn't rape the lady who.

955
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 3: Was with the guy in which they said I robbed

956
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 3: then I'm not the actual perpetrator.

957
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 5: And that's exactly what happened. Fortunately the evidence was preserved,

958
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 5: it was tested, and you walked out of prison a

959
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 5: freeman in twoenty ten after thirty one years.

960
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: That's correct.

961
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:43,280
Speaker 5: In Texas prisons, which is even saying that name Texas prisons,

962
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 5: it just conjures up all kinds of nightmare scenarios. I mean,

963
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 5: from the heat to the it's just an unimaginable thing

964
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 5: to be able to persevere and overcome. And now now

965
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 5: you're an ambassador to new exigneries at the conference.

966
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: Thank you.

967
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 5: You know, I want to ask you specifically about the

968
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 5: conference because here you are in sunny San Diego an ambassador.

969
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 5: That really means that you're here to help some of

970
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 5: the newly exonerated people. I was going to say men,

971
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 5: but we know it's men and women. And what's that like?

972
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 5: What does that mean to them? What does that mean

973
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 5: to you? Because you're viewed as somebody that is extremely

974
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,240
Speaker 5: respected among the entire community for the way you carry yourself.

975
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 5: How does that feel for you and what's the impact

976
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 5: of that role?

977
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very honored and pleased to have that title,

978
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: but that it's just a title.

979
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 1: To me. I'm very emotional and I take it very personal.

980
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 3: When I engage with the guys and welcome these guys

981
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 3: in as family. What I try to do is give

982
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: back what was given to me when I was first released.

983
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 3: When I came to my first conference, there was a

984
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: few guys that came up to me after, you know,

985
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,440
Speaker 3: being confined for such an long time and being all

986
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 3: up tight and not knowing what they expect and not

987
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 3: knowing anyone.

988
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: It's very challenging. It can be very scary because you.

989
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 3: Don't know anyone, and being in prison for such a

990
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 3: long time, You're in a hard environment.

991
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 1: It's a very different environment.

992
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 3: It's not an environment in which you embrace people.

993
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 1: It's an environment in which you keep people at bay.

994
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: You know, you keep them away. And so.

995
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 3: By the guys embracing me after such a long time

996
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 3: and welcomed me home and making me feel a part

997
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 3: of family, I took that very personal. That stuck with me,

998
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 3: and so throughout the whole time in which I have

999
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 3: been free, I was trying to figure out a way

1000
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 3: in which I can become a part of this platform

1001
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: and give back to these guys and welcome these guys

1002
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: in and allow these guys to know that we are

1003
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: family and we stand by you, and we're gonna support you.

1004
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 3: We're going to do everything we can me personally in

1005
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 3: my power to.

1006
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: Make it better for these guys. You know, because.

1007
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 3: We come from different parts of the world in terms

1008
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 3: of prison, but we all suffer the same thing and

1009
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,759
Speaker 3: we all can identify with that, and so it's going

1010
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: to take people who understands that to try to make

1011
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 3: this more of a family atmosphere, more of a welcome home.

1012
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 5: It's amazing because I heard you use the word family

1013
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 5: several times in that beautiful speech, and it really is

1014
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 5: a family. I mean, that's the sense that I get.

1015
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 5: And the experience of being in that room last night

1016
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 5: when almost two hundred Dexigneries got on stage, it was

1017
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 5: a beautiful thing to see and be a part of.

1018
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 5: And the speeches that were made and the hugging and

1019
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 5: the dancing and the connecting of people who have shared this.

1020
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 5: You know, everybody in that room is a member of

1021
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 5: a club that nobody wants to belong to. But now

1022
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 5: it's amazing because every single exonery I've been privileged to

1023
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 5: spend time with is so devoted to helping their fellow

1024
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 5: exunarees and making a difference in not only improving their lives,

1025
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 5: but in helping other people who are still stuck in

1026
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 5: the system. And that's what we're here to do on

1027
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 5: the show, is to educate people and inform people and

1028
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 5: try to prevent the next Cornelius Dupree from ever happening,

1029
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 5: you know, ever getting into the system. You know, once

1030
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 5: you get started on this work, I was lucky I

1031
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 5: sort of stumbled into it twenty something years ago. You

1032
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 5: can't stop, you know, you can't stop because there's no

1033
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 5: better feeling. And I see it in your eyes when

1034
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 5: you're talking about it. How you're able to do it now.

1035
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 5: It's a high, that is it's impossible to even put

1036
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 5: it into words. So we talked about the worst moment

1037
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 5: of life when you were wrongfully convicted and sentenced to

1038
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 5: spend the rest of your life in prison. What's the

1039
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 5: best thing that's happened since you've been out.

1040
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 3: Being married, getting married to my wife after courting my

1041
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: wife for such a long time. My wife is my

1042
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 3: best friend, She's my support system.

1043
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: As you know, I met my wife while I was

1044
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:21,280
Speaker 1: in prison.

1045
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 3: I've actually known my wife for twenty some years prior

1046
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 3: to me getting out of prison and married my wife.

1047
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: So my wife's been there practically thirty years.

1048
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 5: How did you meet her? Let's go back to that.

1049
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,240
Speaker 3: Well, I met my wife while I was in prison.

1050
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 3: My wife was actually a prison guard. Incredible, Yes, my

1051
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 3: wife was. She was going to sam Houston her she

1052
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 3: major in criminology. She was on her way to possibly

1053
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 3: becoming a warden at some point in time, and she

1054
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: was actually a prison guard. I befriend my wife first.

1055
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 3: She was someone who I highly respected. She had no

1056
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 3: clue who I was. I had no idea that she

1057
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 3: would become my wife. Again, she was a lady who

1058
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 3: I highly respected. My job in prison kind of allowed

1059
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 3: me to kind of get a little up close and

1060
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 3: personal with the guards, you know, being that I had

1061
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 3: been in prison such a long time, I was one

1062
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 3: who was pretty much trusted, you know.

1063
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: I had a job that allowed me.

1064
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 3: To intermingle with some of the guards, and so she

1065
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:24,439
Speaker 3: was one who I used to talk to a great deal.

1066
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 3: My wife is a minister, so she was always talking

1067
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,120
Speaker 3: about Christ.

1068
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 1: She's very religious. Auented and that's what won me over.

1069
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 3: That was one of the prayers in which I prayed

1070
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 3: to God to send me a Christian woman in my

1071
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:40,840
Speaker 3: life to kind of help.

1072
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 1: Me stay the course. I never knew it would be her.

1073
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:46,919
Speaker 5: It's an incredible love story. I mean, but you can't

1074
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 5: see through the radio, but Cornelius is a very stylish

1075
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,880
Speaker 5: and handsome, distinguished looking gentleman. But still you have to

1076
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 5: have an incredible amount of game right to be able

1077
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 5: to meet the woman of your while you're on the inside. Right.

1078
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 5: You've got tens of millions of people out here on

1079
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 5: different dating websites can't even find love, and you found

1080
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 5: it in the most hellish place on earth. It's just

1081
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 5: really beautiful that you found each other however, even though

1082
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 5: it was a horrible circumstance, and that we're able to

1083
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 5: connect on the outside and create a family. And I

1084
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,279
Speaker 5: see when you're talking about I see the love in

1085
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 5: your eyes. It's amazing. So I would like to ask

1086
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 5: you if there's anything at all that you want to say.

1087
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 3: Well, I would just like to say to kind of

1088
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 3: enlighten people about what the Innocent Project is all about.

1089
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 3: I really wanted to know that we are family. I

1090
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 3: feel that we are now a community. There are so

1091
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 3: many innocent men and women nowadays that we are actually

1092
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 3: a community within ourselves. And that's good, that's great because

1093
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 3: we can all identify with each other's hurt. There's a

1094
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 3: big word around us that doesn't quite understand what actually

1095
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 3: we literosten see is what the Innocent Project is all about.

1096
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 3: And the people who have roamly been in prison, these

1097
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 3: people all suffer. We all suffer from some form of PTSD,

1098
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 3: and we need to be close and identify with one another,

1099
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 3: talk to one another so that we can start the

1100
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 3: healing process.

1101
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: This is what it's all about.

1102
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 5: So to add to that, I always like to give

1103
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 5: people a way to get involved, right and so of

1104
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 5: course you've heard me say the number of times. Please

1105
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 5: go to www dot nssproject dot org. You can learn

1106
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 5: more about Cornelius and his case and his life, learn

1107
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 5: how to get involved. Is there another any other website

1108
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 5: that you'd recommend? Or that's that's the place to go.

1109
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: Yes, that's that's the place to go.

1110
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,279
Speaker 5: That's the place to go. Please join us, join us

1111
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 5: in this movement. There's so many more people in this

1112
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 5: tragic situation, and we gotta. We got to give them

1113
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 5: the hope and give them the ability to get there,

1114
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 5: get back out on the outside and achieve the freedom

1115
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 5: that they deserve. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

1116
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

1117
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 5: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really

1118
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 5: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

1119
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 5: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject

1120
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 5: dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

1121
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 5: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

1122
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 5: Kevin Wortis. The music in the show is by three

1123
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 5: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

1124
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 5: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

1125
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 5: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a

1126
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 5: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

1127
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 5: Company Number one

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00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 8: Ye