1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties podcasts featuring conversations with industry 2 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton, Managing 3 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: editor of Television for Variety, and today my guest in 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: New York is Esther Newbert. Esther is a partner with 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 1: I C M Partners and the undisputed queen of publishing agents. 6 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: She's always wonderfully outspoken, and here she weighs in on 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: what it takes to get a book sold, her recent 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: experience of shopping memoirs for everyone from Prince to Bob Eiger, 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: and the changing nature of film and TV licensing deals. Esther, 10 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. You're welcome. Let's 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: talk about the book business. You guys have hit a 12 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: real milestone. You've been the long been the dominant publishing 13 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: department in the business. Everybody knows that you have your competitors, 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: but I see his book publishing department just rocks um. 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: But you hit a milestone this year of three uh 16 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: successive number one New York Times Number one bestsellers by 17 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: debut authors. Yea, he did. We had to tell us 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: how that happened. A lot of a lot of it 19 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: happens by by having good books, and then the second 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: the way it happens is by having good luck. Because 21 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: we never quite know how the New York Times calculates 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: their books. It's a bone of contention with a lot 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: of agents these days. But the first book was a 24 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: book by a young man in publishing who changed his name. 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: He uses a pen name A. J. Finn and his 26 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: book is A Woman in the Window. That was the 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: first book in My colleague Jen Joel was the agent. 28 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: The second book was number one on the Combined Mind 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: Fiction and Combined Fiction list. It's it's e books and 30 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: hardcover books, and that was Tara Westover's book Educated, a 31 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: nonfiction book. And the last book and the hardest category 32 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: to get to be number one in is a book 33 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: by Tomy Audi Yemi and the book is called Children 34 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: of Bone and Blood and it's now been number one 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: for three weeks. But she's up against some of the 36 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 1: biggest names in why A publishing, So it's extremely difficult 37 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: to get to be number one on that list as 38 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: a new and with an unknown exactly. She's a young 39 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: African American woman who went to Harvard. She's in her 40 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: twenties and this is the beginning of a series. These 41 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: two of these books, A Woman in the Window and 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: Children of Blood and Bone, were acquired by a century 43 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: and they're on the fast track, both of them to 44 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: being movies. The third book, Educated was sold to the movies. 45 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: I believed to also, but because there are life rights involved, 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: we don't know what will happen. We have a lot 47 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: of other books on the list, and Hollywood becomes so 48 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: important for those books. Those books had movie tie ins 49 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: Red Sparrow and um, I can't quite think of anything else, 50 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: um Lilac Girls, which will be a movie. It becomes 51 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: that virtuus circle of the promotes the movie in a 52 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: movie promotes the book. Let's back up a little bit 53 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: and talk about how in your role in the in 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: the department that you lead, in your role as agents, 55 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: what is the hardest what is the hardest part these 56 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: days in packaging books for sale? How do you how 57 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: do you go about? You have a you know, a 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: promising author, but not a name that anybody knows. What 59 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: is the what is the challenging part in nurturing this 60 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: talent and getting these getting these books sold? These days? 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: You need a good book to begin with. It's a 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: simple to have a good book and you've developed any 63 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: kind of a reputation in the business, then you pick 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: up the phone and you call one of five or 65 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: six editors who trust you. And even if it's a 66 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: brand new author, uh that that gets sold. If it's nonfiction, 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: you need a wonderful proposal for the most part, unless 68 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: it's something like I sold Bob Iger's book and it 69 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: was based on nothing on paper because he's the head 70 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: of Disney and he's had a remarkable career. We only 71 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: went to one publisher and they bought it in the 72 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: room almost because he was so amazingly articulate. What did 73 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: um with Bob Iger's book? What was it about that 74 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: one publisher? What publisher did you go to? And why 75 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: we went to Random House to The editor's name is 76 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: Andy Ward, who had edited George Saunder is tenth of 77 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: December and Lincoln in the Bardo. For me, he had 78 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: come from the magazine world. He's a remarkable editor, and 79 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: that's why I went to him and only to him. 80 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: And I didn't want to parade Bob all over town. 81 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: I thought it was not dignified for somebody who had achieved, 82 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: really what he's achieved. Let's contrast this with somebody like 83 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: a Bob Iger when you sat down to talk with him, 84 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: when he decided to get serious about writing a book, 85 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: how do you how do you shape that pitch? How 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: do you how do you shape that proposal? Or did 87 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: you not have to I didn't have to with him 88 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: because he's one of those people who speaks in full paragraphs, 89 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: and he's describing, for instance, how he was picked he 90 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: was the only inside person who was being asked to 91 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: try out to be the chairman of the board. He 92 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: tells the story in such a wonderful way that I 93 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: knew he would charm the people in the room at 94 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: at a publishing house, and I so I picked Random 95 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: House because I know they'll do a really good job. 96 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: And then back to talking about, you know, an emerging author, 97 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: what how what is the role of the agent in 98 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: getting a Tony at Diemi ready to write that first 99 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: book that will impress We Often in the old days, 100 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: we would get a chapter and a couple and a 101 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: couple of a couple of chapters on an outline. Now 102 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: now we need an entire manuscript, so we're not shaping 103 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: it so much as reading the whole manuscript and deciding 104 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: whether it's good to go. Some of my colleagues actually 105 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: act as first editors, something that I never do because 106 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: I don't want them to then have to edit it 107 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: again with you know, whomever the person is who's bought 108 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: the book. But sometimes it works out in a really 109 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: good way, and and then we become cheerleaders. That's what 110 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: we really are. We find people who have done other 111 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: books in the same way. We make sure they have 112 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: a publicity staff that knows what it's doing, what they're doing, 113 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: and we're often running. So it's interesting now in that 114 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: role that that some agents play as that first editor. 115 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: Is that something when you're looking to to hire and 116 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: promote new agents? Is that is that a skill set 117 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: that you now look for that maybe you didn't know. 118 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: I don't look for that. I would. I'm in conflict 119 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: with some of my colleagues about it because they like it, 120 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: but I think it means they're in the office until 121 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: all hours of the night and we already have enough 122 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: to do just reading these manuscripts um last week and 123 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: I had to seven page books to read that are 124 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: that we're sold and they've just come in. I mean 125 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: they're finished now. And they've come in. And that's the 126 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: whole other thing. After a book has finished, the things 127 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: that you have to do. But no, I don't look 128 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: for an editor in an agent. I want someone who 129 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: can sell and who isn't it who isn't afraid to 130 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: pick up the phone. So many people now just want 131 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: to use email. I think it's still very effective when 132 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: you pick an editor and you can describe it yourself. 133 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: They can hear the passion you have for the book. 134 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: Talk about your team. You have quite a quite a 135 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: department of very strong and prominent women in I c M. 136 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 1: Was that by designer? Did you just happen to I 137 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: inherited a department of women? In fact, I in the 138 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: when I came to the company four years ago, there 139 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: were only women in the department. But there was the 140 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: woman who found Graham Green. There was a woman who 141 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: found UM Tennessee William pretty good fund exactly, they were something, 142 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: and the woman who found Gone with the Wind my 143 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: very favorite. Uh. We now have three men in the department. 144 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: And that's that's the start. That's the unusual part, right, 145 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: very unusual. My partner, Sloan Harris, of course as a 146 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: man and UM he started in the mail room at 147 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: I C. M. We have an office in Washington that's 148 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: run by rache de Gallan who does a lot of 149 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: uh serious non fixed and we have a young agent 150 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 1: named Dan Kershon who's most prominent colleague is UM Michael 151 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: Shaven and and also Um and Patchet. I took him 152 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: with me a couple of years ago because he likes 153 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: music books to meet with Prince. We we took three 154 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: editors to Minneapolis to meet with Prince at the same time. 155 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,719 Speaker 1: It's never been done before because editors don't like to 156 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: be making their pitches in the same room to the 157 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: potential client. But we had to do it because I 158 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: knew he would not want to meet individually with people 159 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: the way sometimes authors do. And at one point he 160 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,719 Speaker 1: asked me who my favorite musician wasn't I put my 161 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: head down. I was embarrassed. I said, well, I'm a 162 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,199 Speaker 1: Springsteen fan. And he said, so you brought your own 163 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: music guy with you, didn't you who knows my work? 164 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: And Dan Kerson does know his did know his work, 165 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: and we still have that book. It will be out 166 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: hopefully at next Christmas. And he wrote about fifty pages 167 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: in his own handwriting, and we had a writer hired 168 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: to work with him who knew as much about Prince 169 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: as anyone alive. And um, we've sold a book in 170 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: a lot of countries and it will be a wonderful 171 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: testament to a great songwriter and performer. And you he 172 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: really hunkered down and wrote himself. I don't know if 173 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: he hunkered down, but he wrote himself and he wrote, 174 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: but wrote it in Longhand. And what we may do 175 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: is actually show those the real pages. That's exciting. Is 176 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: it compelling? Have you read it? Yes? It's about his 177 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: family and if you look at his he has pictures 178 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 1: of his family tree and at the very top is 179 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: his wonderful looking man in a in a eighteenth century suit, 180 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: and then then it fans out and the person at 181 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: the top is a is white and redhead almost, and 182 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: then it comes all the way down to prince because 183 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: of course it's one of his relatives. Probably was raped 184 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: by a slave for all I know, and he was 185 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: raped by the slave owner. Wow, that's I mean, when 186 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: you really probe a family history, that's right, that sounds fascinating. 187 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: Who's the publisher in the US? M there you go, okay, 188 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: well that's something to look forward to um. Since you guys, 189 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: do you know since books almost seem like, you know, 190 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: Springsteen had a terrific book. It sounds like Prince has 191 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: a book. When celebrities get a mind to write a book, 192 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: is it a challenge it ever? Is it a challenge 193 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 1: to get some some people to really take it seriously? 194 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: Like do you have to really tell them like this 195 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: is a real serious endeavor not just something you're gonna 196 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: knock off? Is that? Is that an issue when somebody 197 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: wants to write a memoir? Like occasionally it is and 198 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes you get lucky. I just sold a memoir 199 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 1: that Scott Pelley of CBS has written and he wrote 200 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: him else because he didn't know that you weren't You 201 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: didn't have to write the book ahead of time. That 202 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: was before it was sold, really excited before it was sold. Um. 203 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: Tom Hanks to the short story collection last year and 204 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: he wrote every single story ahead of time. But there 205 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: are people that a need writers and we want nothing 206 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: to do with the book. They don't want to publicize 207 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: it after it's out, and they just think their name 208 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: will carry the book. And that's that makes for a 209 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: very long day. Yeah, I bet I bet um let's 210 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,719 Speaker 1: talk about let's talk about um, the you know, Hollywood's 211 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: voracious demand for source material. You might have heard there's 212 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: some five hundred some TV shows and probably at least 213 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: half of them have some kind of you know, previously 214 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: published or even sometimes you know, before publication, things are 215 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: being things are being licensed. How has that appetite and 216 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: the chase for hot properties to be even licensed even 217 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: before publication. How has that changed the the business of 218 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: agenting for authors. It's only changed in that there are 219 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: so many new outlets. The voraciousness has always been there. 220 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: In fact, in the past. I don't know how they 221 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: really accomplished this, but Hollywood types were paying people in 222 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: the publishing industry, probably assistance a hundred dollars or so, 223 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: to sneak them copies of the book, which only added 224 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: to the hype. And for the most part it didn't 225 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: hurt anybody, but every once in a while it was 226 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: aggravating if that happened. There is a now people don't 227 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: care if their books are sold to television. For instance, 228 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: we represented Margaret Atwood's books and it was such a 229 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: huge success on Hulu. But when I think when we 230 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 1: all heard it, we were a little bit nervous, but 231 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: not anymore. And because who you felt who was kind 232 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: of low profile for something published exactly and yet a 233 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: wonderful job. They did a wonderful job. And now there's 234 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: another season, and of course it propels her books onto 235 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: the list. We don't represent her as an author. We 236 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: have a media department in l A that represents some 237 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: smaller agencies media rights, and that's the case with the 238 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: Atwood Project. But it's a wonderful thing to be able 239 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: to use the cover art from a movie or from 240 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: a television show really helps the books. But with a 241 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: newer author and a new fiction property that has heat, 242 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: how can you talk us through kind of how a 243 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: deal is structured? Like when you do you get the 244 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: incoming call from a studio executive? Do you make an 245 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: outgoing call from somebody? How? How does it? How does 246 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: a deal come to? What happens in every possible way 247 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: you can imagine. We have a media department. It comprised 248 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: of about six people now and generally will send the 249 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: manuscript as early as we possibly can, as soon as 250 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: it's edited out to them. They'll read it and they'll 251 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: have some ideas and sometimes they'll send it out at 252 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: that point. Sometimes they'll say, you know, no one really 253 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: knows about this person, maybe we should wait until there 254 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: are great reviews. And every once in a while. I 255 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: know with Children of Blood and Bone, the calls were 256 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: incoming because people heard that she was very young, she 257 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: was an African American student at Harvard. There was you know, 258 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: the whole back story was wonderful. She was writing about 259 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: Africa and it's fantasy and people love that. So that 260 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: was an incoming call. But I think the whole sale 261 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: went down in a couple of days. It's different every 262 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: single time. It sounds like that's a big role of 263 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: the agent to know how the best way to get 264 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: to build a market for Sometimes although I can't give 265 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: us too much credit, sometimes it's just accidental, but we'll 266 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: take that too. How much in the you know, in 267 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: the business right now, with sales generally, you know, certainly 268 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: a physical product generally declining. How how important would you 269 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: say a film and TV or sort of adaptation license 270 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: is to the profitability of a book if you'd be huge. 271 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: Red Sparrow was a film that did I think eighteen 272 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: million the first weekend. Um wasn't it certainly wasn't Black Panther, 273 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: but the books his the author's two books have been 274 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: on the list since thee before the movie came out 275 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: because of the pre publicity for the book was so 276 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: strong for the movie, Lawrence exactly and Genneral Lawrence was 277 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: all over the media saying things like, well, if you 278 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: if you really want to see my breast, I suggest 279 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: that you go see this movie. And I think a 280 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: lot of people away for that probably. Um and do 281 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: you I mean, do you find that you know, there 282 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: have been authors over the years famously resistant to having 283 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: Hollywood adaptations. Do you find the authors that you're working 284 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: with they can't wait to try to get a film 285 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: or to be deal or is it still is it 286 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: still a little bit of a concern for people. I 287 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: can think of one person who didn't want to have 288 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: her books sold, but she would be very unhappy if 289 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: I mentioned who she is. And now apparently there's an 290 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: adaptation coming out that she's thrilled about. But for the 291 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: most part, these writers are really excited if they hear 292 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: the word movie. The sad thing is that many of 293 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: them are just optioned for a very little amount of money, 294 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: and um, it takes a long time for a movie 295 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: with a with a little option to turn into a movie, 296 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: whereas with these these big number one books, they're racing 297 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: to try to get them done to build off the heat. Right, 298 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: exactly what is the typical I'm just curious the typical 299 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: time frame for an option? Is it a year? Is two? 300 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: Is it's generally eighteen months? They tell by the time 301 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: the contract is signed, your six months in. It's so 302 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: different a contracting signed and in l A you need 303 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: a deal memo and then you need the actual contract 304 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: and everybody's got lawyers and it's still and it's excuse 305 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: the expression of gentleman's agreement business. In New York, you 306 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 1: don't need a deep Once you make the deal, you 307 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: don't need a deal memo. You wait for the contract, 308 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: which probably will come in two weeks, and then our 309 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: lawyers go through, it goes back to the publishing house, 310 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: some things are changed, then the author gets it signed 311 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: it and boom they're paid. Not like that in Hollywood, 312 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,719 Speaker 1: where the deal memo is because everyone's afraid that they 313 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: won't tell the truth or that the the the various 314 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: clauses will change, so they have to be very careful 315 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: and it takes way too long. Are there rights that 316 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: you're finding that studios and networks. Are there more expansive 317 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: rights now that there's sort of more platforms to exploit, 318 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: I ping, they will rarely give up play rights m 319 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: the author or the publisher. Now the studio wants those 320 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: rights as as part of the film rights. When you 321 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: think of all the plays that all the movies that 322 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: have been turned into play, even even something like Frozen. 323 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: I haven't been to Broadway to see how the ice 324 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: holds up, but but there you go. And but other 325 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: rights not so much. Although in publishing now and you'll 326 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: love this, there's there are now morality clauses. Yes, Random 327 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: House put one in the other day, and I told 328 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: um an author of mine who who was so excited 329 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: that she had a morality clause in a garden because 330 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: of course she is, you know, America's most perfect person 331 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: and she's never going to have a problem. She said. 332 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: I love to think that maybe, you know, people think 333 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: that I had to have it in there for God 334 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: knows what I was doing, so man's fort something maybe 335 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: a license to misbehave exactly how um, how would you 336 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: say that? Another trend that we've seen with authors is 337 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: authors becoming very involved with their adaptations, you know, either 338 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: writing the writing screenplays or teleplays, or you know, having 339 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: a real not just not just a vanity producing credit, 340 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: but a real producing credit. Is that? Um? Is that 341 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: something that you're seeing more and more. There's a lot 342 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: of resistance in Hollywood to letting an author get that involved. 343 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,880 Speaker 1: What they want is for the author not to bad 344 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: mouth of the movie. So we're seeing them getting a 345 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: credit like executive producer or something in that vein, but 346 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: or consultant. Especially in television, they're almost always consultants on 347 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: the film, but they still want real screenwriters. They don't 348 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: want to be messing around with somebody who's not done 349 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 1: it before. That's a hard sell, very hard sell. Interesting. Interesting, Um, 350 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: let's talk about just in the pure book business. Um. 351 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: Of course, it's been more than a decade, but we've 352 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: heard so much about the you know, the the growth 353 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: of the e book business really cutting into getting into 354 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: the you know, money making potential of books. Is that 355 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: has that leveled out at all? In terms of I 356 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: know there have been some groundbreaking agreements between digital publishers 357 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: and and publishers and authors. How is that sort of 358 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: marketplace right now? It did level out. There was a 359 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: moment in time where we thought it would there would 360 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: never be another hardcover book. Really there was that bad. Well, 361 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: certain alarmists thought that those of us still like to 362 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: pick up an actual book and have that feeling, it's 363 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: a special feeling. Didn't exactly. But the problem with the 364 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: book is that if that if you don't have to 365 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: wait for the paperback edition because of the price, that's 366 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: the business that's hurt. The actual paperback editions of the 367 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: book are not selling what they once did. The hardcover book. 368 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: There's still a huge number of people that want to 369 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: buy hardcovers um and there are people who, for instance, 370 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: will go on vacation and they'll they'll download five books 371 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: on the Kindle, but they'll take one book with them. 372 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: I bump into people like that all the time. It's 373 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: not It hasn't killed our business the way we thought 374 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: it would. Maybe. And when you say that the panic 375 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: period was that like ten years ago, fifteen years ago, 376 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: is Amazon and the Kindle started to come online? Yes, 377 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: when they when they both started to come online, we 378 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: thought that was it. Wow. Um. Is it fair to 379 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: say though that the that just on a pure the 380 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 1: royalty rate for an e book is lower than if 381 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: you sell a hardcover book. Yes, and getting actually numbers 382 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 1: from Amazon has always an amusing um it's it's amusing 383 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: to us to try to get any real facts from Amazon. 384 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: I hate the actor. Donald Trump has accused Amazon of 385 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: costing the post Office money and and being on his 386 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,920 Speaker 1: side really gives me a terrible headache. But Amazon is 387 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: difficult occasionally to deal with, and we would like a 388 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: little more transparency. There's nothing like hearing about a book 389 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: on a Sunday and your local bookstore doesn't have it 390 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: and you go on Amazon and boom, it's dors and 391 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: you understand why people like that. If you can find 392 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: a local bookstore, that's one of the problems. Well, I 393 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: remember I remember walking up Madison Avenue and hundreds of 394 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: years ago and there was one bookstore at s and 395 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 1: Madison and the guy would come to the door and say, 396 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: I have a book. I know you'll love it. And 397 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: I wasn't in the business then. I mean, there were 398 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: bookstores every four ft on Fifth Avenue. But independent bookstores 399 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: are having a comeback. And it's not just the coffee 400 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: that they saw or the fact that you can sit 401 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: there and read forever. It's those little shelf talkers that 402 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: tell you what the book is about, or they actually 403 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: know what the books are and they develop a base 404 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: of people who like a certain sort of book and 405 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: they'll reach out to them. It makes a big difference. 406 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: People love that, especially book people. People. Do you find 407 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: when your authors do book tours and they do the 408 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: slog of going to doing the book signings and the 409 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: author appearances makes a difference. It can make no difference. 410 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: It makes a difference the first two weeks because that's 411 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: when your book either does or doesn't get on a 412 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: New York Times list. So pre sales, whatever you do 413 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: to pre sell your books so that on the first 414 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: day that books are counted, maybe you'll have seven or 415 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 1: eight thousand books sold, and that counts for the first week. 416 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: And it's the rate of sale you have in the 417 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: first week that determines whether you get on a Times list. 418 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: And that's that's that calculation, that mysterious calculation that you 419 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: were referring to, Yes, what what for for a book 420 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: that isn't you know, Neil Gaiman or James Patterson? But 421 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: what what is the benchmark for success in terms of 422 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: considered sales that are considered strong for somebody that's not 423 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: an a list writer. Is it the number copies? Oh? No, 424 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: god no, it would shock you shock me. Okay, in 425 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: the first week it's let's say, uh a best selling 426 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: authors about to come out that book may sell in 427 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:46,640 Speaker 1: the first week a total of copies, and the rest 428 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: of the books two through fifteen on the Times list 429 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: will be in the tens and the sevens and the 430 00:25:54,560 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: fours thousands, which is a shockingly low number. If you 431 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: were to equate that to a movie, there would be 432 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: two people in the theater all over America. So not 433 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: doesn't take very many books to get on the on 434 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: the bestseller list and a great sale depending on what 435 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: your advance has been. Because of course, the publicers publisher 436 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: can lose a lot of money. If they pay a 437 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: million dollars and the book doesn't sell a couple of 438 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: hundred thousand, they're in trouble because they're in the red. 439 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: But if you pay a hundred thousand dollars for a book, 440 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: then financially, if you sell a serious twenty five or 441 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: thirty thousand copies, you're in very good shape. Everybody will 442 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: ultimately make money. So that that explains that why the 443 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: economics have definitely have definitely come down, and why the 444 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: aftermarket licensing the audio market is now very hot again. 445 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's because people are running and 446 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: listening to books or if they're dry having and listening 447 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: to books, but they are listening to books and it's 448 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: one of the hottest areas in book publishing. And that's 449 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: a whole Is that a do you tend to do? 450 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: You do like a package deal with a publisher where 451 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: we try not to give them a negotiation. It's part 452 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: of the negotiation. They try not to give up those 453 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: rights because they've now figured out too that it's a 454 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: really hot area. But sometimes we'll take less advance money 455 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: in order to keep the audio rights because that's how 456 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: many copies you can sell an audio. Are there any 457 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: particular companies or platforms that you think are been have 458 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: been fueling the audio because and they're all owned by Amazon? 459 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: Back to Amazon to Amazon. Yeah, do you have you 460 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: gett Have you all established a relationship over there? Oh? Yes, 461 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: they come to our offices all the time and they 462 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: make presentations and I'm always getting them saying, is it 463 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: possible when you show your power point you can have 464 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: a couple of I c M books on the screen? 465 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: Would that kill you? Since we had just this year 466 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 1: we've had three number one books, and I don't need 467 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: to see other people's boys. Really where they receptive? Yeah, 468 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: well they're not exactly a laugh riot, but um no, 469 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: they've never listened in all these years. Actually, are you 470 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: surprised that there has never really emerged? And it just 471 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: didn't purely in the book? I mean, Amazon is the 472 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,959 Speaker 1: you know, the retail the literal Amazon jungle. But are 473 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: you surprised and all this time that there hasn't really 474 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: been a real strong competitor in the book area, in 475 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: the online space for Amazon. I'm sure you probably wish 476 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: there was. I wish there was. And in the same 477 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: way that suddenly there's a Hulu and suddenly Netflix and 478 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: suddenly a t T when they buy HBO, will suddenly 479 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: be in the making movie business. Um but it's they 480 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: look at the market and I think it's not big enough. 481 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: You're not going to have a billion dollar movie a 482 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: book the way Panther Black Panther did. You're just not 483 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: gonna have it. For the most part. You'll have You'll 484 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: have Michael Wolves book. Uh. Once in a you know, 485 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: four or five years a book that just out of nowhere, 486 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: you never think it's gonna work. Um, the author's other 487 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: books never sold that sort of in those numbers and 488 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: movement there is, but it's rare. So who wants to 489 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: open up a whole business doing that again? And they're 490 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: so far ahead now Amazon, that and publishers have consolidated. 491 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 1: Remember there only five big houses now. When you send 492 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: a book out to Random House and you want to 493 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: send it to other great editors, you'll find that those 494 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: editors are at Crown part of Random House Group, Cannopt 495 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: part of the Random House group, Balantine part of the 496 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: Random House Book etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. It's and now Penguin, Viking. 497 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: It's all under one umbrella. If they talk to each 498 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: other more, we'd be in bigger trouble. Hopefully they won't 499 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: listen to this podcast and know that if they did 500 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: know that we were still we were sending the book 501 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: to seven of their imprints, they might not bid against 502 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: each other. It sounds like there's at least competition even 503 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: within there in the imprints. Yeah, where there is. Leave 504 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: it to leave it to people in the media business 505 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: to be competitive. What would you say, esther, is the 506 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: either the hardest or the biggest change in your job 507 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: in the last decade or so? Things that things that 508 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: you have to do now that you never had to 509 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: deal with before. Well, in part, you have to help 510 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: the publicity of people, because there's such young kids doing 511 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: it at publishing houses. And if you're in my side 512 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: of the business, and chances are we now own a 513 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: division that represents people on the Today Show and Good 514 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: Morning America and things like that, so we can pick 515 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: up the phone I call them directly and say, look, 516 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: do me a favor. I know you don't have many 517 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: authors on, but this is important. Could you please put 518 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: them in the at least in the nine o'clock hour 519 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: or something. And and the young people at the publishing 520 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: house can't do that, So we do more of that. 521 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: UM because I see them now has a division that 522 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: broadcast talent. That's an interesting that's an interesting level of 523 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: connection I hadn't get together. And then there is UM. 524 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: As I said, there are some agents in at my 525 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: company who do a lot of internal editing before it 526 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: goes to the publisher, and we never did that in 527 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: the past. UM in part because you would often get 528 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: a novel. If you can believe this, you get you 529 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: get two chapters of the novel and a little summary 530 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: of what it was about, and you'd actually sell that 531 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: book as a novel. Sometimes it would come in and 532 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't any good and they'd have to pay the 533 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: money back because it would be rejected. Now at least 534 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: you can you can honestly say to Summer, unless there 535 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: are world class novelist, you have to write the whole 536 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: thing or I can't sell it. They don't know how 537 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: it's going to turn out. So that's really got That's 538 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: a commitment from the writer. They have to make a living. 539 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: But Mary Higgins Clark used to when she was widowed 540 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: very early on, she would get up at five in 541 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: the morning and she would write for an hour and 542 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: a half and then she'd go to work and she 543 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: managed to feed all those children that she has that way. 544 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: But people don't want to do that anymore. There's a 545 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: lot of commitment and a lot of dedications. What esther? 546 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time with us. Tell 547 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: us what on your radar we should be uh, what's 548 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: on the horizon for you that we should be watching 549 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: out for? What? What projects or properties are you most 550 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: excited about. In a couple of weeks, you're gonna laugh 551 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: really hard because Carl Hyasin and Ross Chaste have collaborated 552 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: to do a graduation speech book. But it's a an 553 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: anti graduation and speech book. It's called Assume the Worst, 554 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: the graduation speech You'll never hear. It is a subtitle. 555 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: And then in June, seymour Hurst, the man who uncovered 556 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: the scandal at Meli Abu Grade, renowned investigative, renowned investigative reporter, 557 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: has a book coming from KAF called Reporter. That's I 558 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 1: think the best thing he's ever done. In the fall, 559 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: Michael Beschloss has a book called Presidents of War All 560 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: the Wards that an American President started. It starts with 561 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: the War of eighteen twelve and goes through Vietnam. And 562 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: Eina Garden has a new cookbook called Cooking Like a 563 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: Pro That will I don't ever worry about that book. 564 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: A lot of great projects on the horizon. Esther, thank 565 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: you so much for your very welcome Thank you, thanks 566 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: for listening. Be sure to join us next week for 567 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: another episode of Strictly Business.