1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: On this episode of The Newsworld. Funding Ukraine so they 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: can continue to fight Russian aggression can become a hot 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: button issue in Washington, d C. As Congress considers the 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: next legislation to fund the war. I firmly support funding Ukraine. 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: And here's why. If Putin wins, he will not stop, 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: and we will be in grave risk of a much 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: larger war, inevitably involving the United States. I'm really pleased 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: to welcome my guests a remarkably experienced leader, Jim Gilmour. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: He served as Governor of Virginia and his ambassador to 10 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe under President 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Jim, it is great to have you join 12 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: us in Newsworld. 13 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: Great thank you new for the chance to be with 14 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: you in your listeners today. 15 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Well as you know, the Senate in February approved a 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: ninety five billion dollar supplemental aid package for Ukraine, Israel, 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: and Taiwan. About sixty billion would go to supporting Ukraine, 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: fourteen billion to purchase weapons and munitions, fifteen billion for 19 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,919 Speaker 1: support services such as military training and intelligence sharing. About 20 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: eight billion would go to help Ukrainian government continue their 21 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: basic operations with a prohibition on the money going towards 22 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: pensions and about one point six billion to help Ukraine's 23 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: private sector. Speaker Mike Johnson vowed to bring a vote 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: on military aid to Ukraine after the House returned, but 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: has met with some pushback from Republicans. In fact, representing 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green has threatened to oust Speaker Johnson if 27 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: he brings the Ukraine aid to a vote. Representative Chip 28 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: Roy of Texas declined to endorse or rule out supporting 29 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: Green's threat, saying he's focused on working with Johnson to 30 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: figure out a path to strengthen the US Mexico border, 31 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: but he also warned that it'd be a complete failure 32 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: to put Ukraine on the floor without dealing with the border. 33 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: You know, as governor you've often had to work with 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: the legislature, and as an ambassador, you've seen the world 35 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: from a different view than most Americans. What's your sense 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: of where we're at and how we should be thinking 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: about this? 38 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:29,119 Speaker 2: Well, Nude, I think that you're exactly correct that it's 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: essential that the Ukraine bill pass. There's certainly nothing wrong 40 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: with focusing on the border issues. I think that's legitimate. 41 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: We've seen a real failure by President Biden to address 42 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: that issue. But that can't become a block to the 43 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: international crisis that we're facing now in Europe. My view, 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: i think similar to yours, is that Ukraine has to succeed. 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: It can't become a conquest by violence or atrocity or 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: aggression by Russia. Putin has made it clear what he 47 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: intends to do. He intends to reassemble the Russian Empire 48 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: to the greatest extent that he possibly can, and the 49 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: Ukraine is his essential first step. He's not going to stop, 50 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 2: he hasn't stopped up to this point. But yet at 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: the same time, the Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom 52 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: and for their independence. They're paying for it in blood, 53 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 2: and they just need the weapons and they need the support. 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 2: So I think that it's absolutely essential to do this, 55 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 2: and the Speaker Johnson is doing the right thing, and 56 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: I want to support him in every way that I can. 57 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: Well, I'm curious for a second, because you were there 58 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 1: in Vienna. You sort of see the world from a 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: central European standpoint. What's your sense about the level of 60 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: fear that the countries in Middle Europe have about a 61 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: victorious Putin. 62 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: It was in Vienna and I had a chance to 63 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: talk with fifty six other ambassadors, including all the ambassadors 64 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: in Central Europe. Since that time, I've been to Kiev 65 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: and visited with the leadership of Ukraine. Several weeks ago, 66 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: I was in Vilnius, invited there in order to talk 67 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: to the leaders of the Baltic countries and the Ukrainians. 68 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 2: People did come in to talk. So I think I'm 69 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: a bit up to date on this. The Central Europeans, 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: and this includes, by the way, the Scandinavian countries, like 71 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: particularly Finland and Sweden and others, are very shall I say, 72 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: realistic about what the Russian threat really is. They do 73 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: understand that they're threatened, and they're prepared to stand up, 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: and they are standing up and they're making contributions to 75 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: this crisis and to this financial support for Ukraine. But 76 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: my report is not unique. As ambassador, I learned that 77 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 2: the United States is always the big dog in the room. 78 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 2: We're always the one that are looked to for leadership. 79 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 2: It's because of our population, because of our sophistication, because 80 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: of our financial assets. We are essentially the leader of 81 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: the Western world. So I think the fundamental question that 82 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: we have to ask is is the Western world worth saving? 83 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 2: Worth leadership? Believe that it is so. To come directly 84 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: to the point. If Putin succeeds, he then is ready 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: to move on to other places. He's made it very 86 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 2: clear what he's going to do. He's written it down, 87 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: We've all read it, we've all seen it with his interviews. 88 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 2: He intends to move on to Moldova and then from 89 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: there to the Baltic States. The Baltic States know this. 90 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 2: When I visited with him, they said that the threat 91 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: is not if, but when, and then at that point 92 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: you have a risk that he begins to take a 93 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 2: gamble on whether he can afford to attack a NATO country. 94 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: That would mean that we're going to be in a 95 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: much larger war. But aside from the being in a 96 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 2: larger war, he is in a position at that point 97 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: to intimidate the rest of Europe, including Western Europe, and 98 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: make Western Europe begin to have a second guess as 99 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: to whether they want to be really that close to 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 2: the United States. If that happens, I believe that is 101 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: an exextential threat to the United States of America. Not 102 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: to mention the fact that it will probably ignite a 103 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: further war in the Pacific, and then we're suddenly in 104 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: a two front war and a real world war. I 105 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: want to avert that, and I know you do, and 106 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: that's why I'm speaking out the way that I do. 107 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: Well, you know the way you describe it, and I 108 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: agree entirely with your analysis. It's almost as though we're 109 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: now prepared to lose the Cold War having won it. 110 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: I mean, the whole point of NATO and the whole 111 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: point of our involvement starting in nineteen forty nine was 112 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: to stop the Soviet Union from dominating Europe, and we succeeded, 113 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: and ultimately the Sivie Union disappeared. And it's clear that 114 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: Putin's number one goal is to rebuild the Soviet Empire. 115 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: He set at one point that the collapse of the 116 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: Civit Union was the greatest single tragedy of the twentieth century. 117 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: So he's pretty clear about what he wants. And I think, 118 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: from my perspective, in that sense, this is an effort 119 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: as much to stop Putin as it is to help Ukraine. 120 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: And we have to understand both sides of that equation. Now, 121 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: you know that one of the things being considered by 122 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: the House of Publicans is the REPO Act, which House 123 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: Foreign Affairs Chairman Mike McCall and Congressman French Hill of 124 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: Arkansas introduced. And the REPO Act would allow us to 125 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: seize Russian assets that are sovereign assets. We would then 126 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: take that money and apply it to help pay for 127 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: the war. And then secondly, it turns a lot of 128 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: what we're doing into a loan and would basically pick 129 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: up on something that President Roosevelt did in World War 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: Two in trying to help Great Britain. Interestingly, Senat Jim 131 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: Rishu is the ranking member of the Center forim Relations Committee, 132 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: and Sheldon Whitehouse from Rhode Island, as a Democrat, worked 133 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: with them to create a Rebuilding, Economic Prosperity and Opportunity 134 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: for Ukrainians Act. It was passed into law. But we 135 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: now have to empower the United States and get Biden 136 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 1: to actually do what we're trying to do. And if 137 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: we attach that to this budget request, we actually end 138 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: up having the Russians help pay for part of the 139 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: aid to defeat them in Ukraine. But what would your 140 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: reaction be to seizing the Russian assets? 141 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: I think the Russians would probably resent the fact that 142 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: they put their finances at our reach and probably feel 143 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: like somehow this is some sort of betrayal. But Russians 144 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: always think like that. They always seem to think like 145 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 2: they're the victims and they have to lash out against 146 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: everybody else. The truth is that we have a moral 147 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 2: right to do what is necessary to secure the rebuilding 148 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 2: of Ukraine. Ukraine didn't attack Russia. Russia has invaded and 149 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: committed an aggression, which is a violation not only of 150 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: international law, but of all of their agreements that they've 151 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 2: reached in the past, including the Budapest memorandom where they 152 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 2: agreed to guarantee Ukraine's sovereign borders. So they're the ones 153 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: that are wrong. Here is the Russians who have committed 154 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: the wrongdoing, and it's perfectly proper for the civilized world 155 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: to make them pay for their wrongdoing. They're the ones 156 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: that have destroyed all this, not us. The Ukrainians haven't 157 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 2: attacked Russia until they're now doing some defensive attacks because 158 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 2: they're in an all old war. But I think the 159 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 2: Ukraine would have been happy simply to restore their borders 160 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: and go on to live like a normal country, and frankly, 161 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 2: Russia should start to live like a normal country. So 162 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 2: I agree with you Knute that the securing of that 163 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 2: money in order to rebuild Ukraine is the right thing 164 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: to do. 165 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: If you wrote a very important article in the International 166 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: Policy Digest, there was an interview with you on April sixth, 167 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: and you put a great deal of the responsibility in 168 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: President Biden for not having led Democrats to cooperate with 169 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: House Republicans. Could you expand on the views you were 170 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: developing in that interview. 171 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: I am deeply respectful of the power of the presidency. 172 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: If it's used by an effective person, it can provide 173 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: tremendous leadership, as we saw with Ronald Reagan, as we've 174 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 2: seen with other presidents as well. I fall President Biden 175 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: for at least two reasons. The first, which you've alluded to, 176 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: is that he's just not able to use the bully 177 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: pulpit and the influence of the American presidency to do 178 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: the right thing. If he believes that Ukraine ought to 179 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: be supported and that it's in the interest of national 180 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: security to do that, he needs to be more vigorous 181 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 2: in his leadership. And I think that he just can't 182 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: do it. I think he's arrived at a point in 183 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 2: his career where he just is not able to provide 184 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 2: that kind of leadership out of the presidency, whereas I 185 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: think probably Donald Trump can do that. He's a stronger 186 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,719 Speaker 2: and more vigorous person. That's why, of course I have 187 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 2: decided to support President Trump. The other side of this, though, 188 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 2: is that the US needs to be vigorous in its leadership. 189 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,559 Speaker 2: We need to stand for our values, and we need 190 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: to recognize that. What really has happened with President Biden 191 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: is that he's complicated the American political scenes greatly, that 192 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 2: the American people are distracted from the central problem in 193 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: the international conflict that we're in. He's created a highly 194 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: inflationary state, which means that people now are more focused 195 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: on their grocery store than they're on their long term 196 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: national security. The border situation continues to be a problem, 197 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: and everybody recognizes that crime is terrible in the streets. 198 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: He says, his staff and his administration says silly things 199 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: like there's no crime problem. Well, it's not a crime 200 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: problem until you're the one being thrown under the subway, 201 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: And then I think people really recognize that there's a 202 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 2: crime problem, and then of course there's the international situation. 203 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: So I just think that the presidency has gone beyond 204 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: President Biden at this point, and there's going to be 205 00:11:45,120 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 2: a need for a change. 206 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: It's really remarkable. Analysis was done by the Institute for 207 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: the Study of War and they concluded that the Allies 208 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: collectively have about a sixty three trillion dollars annual economy 209 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: and the Russians are at one point nine trillions. We're 210 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: basically about almost forty times the size of the Russian economy. Now, 211 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: you would think that with that scale of resources, that 212 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: we should be able, frankly, to drown the Russians militarily, 213 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: if we were serious about doing it. 214 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: You would think that we could. And in fact, the 215 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: United States economy is a tremendous economy, isn't it. The 216 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: United States gross domestic product, our GDP is twenty seven 217 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 2: trillion dollars that dwarfs anybody else in the world, including China. 218 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: And if we apply our resources correctly, we continue our 219 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: leadership in the world, and we should do that. I've 220 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: heard all these false arguments that are made sometimes out 221 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: of our friends new things like well, why are we 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 2: looking after the Ukraine border when we should be looking 223 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: after our own border. Well two answers to that. First 224 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 2: of all, they're not analogous at all. We're talking about 225 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 2: a border violation in Europe, which is an aggression which 226 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: threatens the entire structure of the world and means that 227 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: we have to be prepared to address that, as opposed 228 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: to people running across the border as illegal immigrants. There's 229 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 2: just two different things entirely. And second of all, we're 230 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: a great power, we're a great country. We ought to 231 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: be able to handle more than one thing at a time. 232 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: This is really I think Russian propaganda that's being inserted 233 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: into the American body politic, and we are not to 234 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: fall for it. So there are other false arguments that 235 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: are being made as well, But the point is that 236 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 2: this is a point where American leadership and finances essentially, 237 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: I think maybe I might like to make one more point. 238 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: We need to be thinking about what hybrid warfare is. 239 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: Means that you concentrate all of your national power against 240 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: an enemy, and that means not just military or battlefield, 241 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 2: but also propaganda and messaging, which I believe is the 242 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: most important thing because it works on the mind of 243 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: the adversary, that being the American people, and cyber and economics, 244 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 2: all of these things, the use of oil power, for example, 245 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: all of these things are being concentrated by Putin into 246 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 2: his main mission, which is to conquer Ukraine, the essential 247 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: first step in the reassembly of the Russian Empire. 248 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: I wonder who's doing the thinking in the White House 249 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: and stopping an expansion of liquefied natural gas when that 250 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: is the best single American response to cutting off the 251 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: Russian sale of gas in Western Europe that undermines the 252 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: war effort in ways that you think somebody in the 253 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: White House would have some notion that we should be 254 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: expanding our ability to help the Europeans get off Russian 255 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: natural gas, not weakening that ability. In these are the 256 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: kind of decisions I find just really perplexing. 257 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: I know when I was ambassador to the Osse and 258 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: working with some of the Allied ambassadors, and frankly, one day, 259 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: casually I was speaking to the German ambassador to Ossee 260 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: and I basically said, are you people out of your minds? 261 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 2: You really should not be connecting yourself so much and 262 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 2: so dependent on Russia. You know that they have the 263 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: potential to be aggressourse, you need to be more independent, 264 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: and of course now I think that that is beginning 265 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 2: to emerge. But to come back to your point, what 266 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: is the American policy on this? And I think that 267 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: we should be drilling, we should be expanding our resources. 268 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: We were doing that a few years ago, and for 269 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: some reason which I don't completely understand, President Biden and 270 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: the Democratic to the Party have decided to weaken this 271 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: country and to stop the creation of energy. It was 272 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 2: really a big major card in the hand of the 273 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: Western powers, the American ability to provide some of this 274 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: oil and gas and take the world off of this 275 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 2: dependency on some of the other oil producing nations, including Russia. 276 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: I think that's a policy that has to change. I 277 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: think it will change if there's a change in the administration. 278 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: An example of how totally unacceptable putin is there was 279 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: an international conference which just issued a report entitled Restoring 280 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: Justice for Ukraine. Over forty countries called for a special 281 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: tribunal to hold Russia accountable for war crimes. Forty four 282 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 1: countries signed this thing, and the Prosecutor General's Office reported 283 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: that Ukraine has collected pre trial information when over one 284 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty eight thousand victims of war crimes. When 285 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: you start talking about psychological warfare and communications warfare, it 286 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: seems to be that the West case, if it was made, 287 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: would be dramatically stronger than what we're getting from people 288 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: in the news media right now. But actually we have 289 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,400 Speaker 1: a huge case that the Russians have actually committed far 290 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: more atrocities than Hamas. They have killed far more people, 291 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: raped far more people, stolen children. I mean, it's an 292 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,479 Speaker 1: astonishing story of an almost anti human system that Putin 293 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: has created, and it seems to me that that could 294 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: be communicated clearly, people would understand the evil that we're 295 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: facing and why we have to ensure that he cannot win. 296 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 2: I think that the West states to recapture its moral righteousness, 297 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: the fact that we are on the high ground, we 298 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: are the ones that are doing the right thing. There's 299 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: a tendency to get into moral equivalency here and to say, well, 300 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: Russia is Russia, and the US is the US and 301 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: the West and the Easter or equivalent. That's not true 302 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 2: at all. What's going on here is that Vuten wants 303 00:17:56,920 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: to change the entire international order. Reason, by the way, 304 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 2: why they were so uncooperative with the OSSE. The OSSE, 305 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: by the way, with Russian support, was established in order 306 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: to create new rules of the road internationally, and it 307 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 2: said that there would be human rights, that we would 308 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: not go back to a Nazi like regime of the 309 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: knock on the door of the middle of the night 310 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 2: or stalin type of regime where people were hauled away 311 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 2: to sellers and beaten and killed, that we would not 312 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,679 Speaker 2: have aggression to change the politics of the world. Putin 313 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 2: wants to throw all of that away and establish a 314 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: new way of doing things in the world. And by 315 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: the way, he has plenty of allies in both the 316 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 2: Iranians and also particularly the Chinese, who as we know, 317 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: have thrown wigers into concentration camps and they're now threatening 318 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: Taipei in Taiwan with once again a military aggression. If 319 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: this type of thing is able to overcome the righteousness 320 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: of our Western values, at that point, it's a whole 321 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: new world. And I think that it's avitable at that 322 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: point that we can't live in that world and we're 323 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 2: going to end up in a war. Furthermore, they can't 324 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: live with us as long as we are righteous people 325 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: doing the right thing. And with a proper justification, we 326 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 2: become the enemy. They can't allow us to exist in 327 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 2: our system. They have to replace our system, and that 328 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: I'm afraid new means a third World war. And I 329 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 2: want to say again, I think people like you and 330 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 2: I ought to be working to avert that war, not 331 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: to create it. 332 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: That's right. I think a no vote on stopping Putin 333 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: is in effect a yes vote on drifting into a 334 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: much bigger war in the not very distant future, and 335 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: a war that would be horrifying. I mean, Russia does 336 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: still have about fifty five hundred nuclear weapons, and I 337 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: think what we want to do is keep them off 338 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: balance and keep them believing that they can't win. And 339 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: if they do start winning, I think their arrogance will 340 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: go up and they will actually become dramatically more dangerous 341 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 1: than they already are. Let me ask you one last thing, 342 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: which is it's really important for every member of Congress 343 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: to understand that this is a historic, not a political moment. 344 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: This is like Churchill in mid nineteen thirty. There are 345 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: times when, as you know, because you've been in politics, 346 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: a fair peace there at tends on what you're doing. 347 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: Is this political one you might win, you might lose, 348 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: But then there are those rare moments when you really 349 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: sort of in the balance of history, and it seems 350 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: say that this is one of those moments. 351 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: I absolutely agree. It's hard for me to believe at 352 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 2: this point in my political career that I would arrive 353 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: at this I wouldn't have expected it after the successes 354 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: of the Ronald Reagan years and they're prevailing over the 355 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 2: Cold War. But what's happening right now is a pivot 356 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 2: in my view. We're seeing the conflict in the Middle East, 357 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: which is very important, and I support Israel and it's 358 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 2: right to exist and its ability to resist its attack 359 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: by Hamas. I'm going to Taiwan in just a few 360 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 2: weeks and conferring with people there, both in giving them 361 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 2: a political speech and also meeting with government officials. But 362 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: Taiwan is under threat and China is basically saying, you know, 363 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: if we have to, we'll just invade when we'll just 364 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: create a war like situation, And then of course you 365 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 2: have the Ukraine. My view is that of all these conflicts, 366 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: that the Ukraine War is the pivot for the future. 367 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: I've heard people say, well, we really need to be 368 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: pivoting to Asia. I think not yet. The European War 369 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 2: is actually underway. People are actually being killed, Bombs are 370 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: actually exploding there, tanks are moving. That's where the real 371 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 2: war is. If Putin is able to succeed there, he 372 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: compromises Europe. If he compromises Europe and gets them rethinking 373 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: about where their future really should lie, that is a 374 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: danger to the United States. And I have a dark 375 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,439 Speaker 2: vision that says that if the Pacific goes haywire, Europe 376 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: goes haywire, the United States is without allies, to be 377 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: crowded back within to itself to the point where our 378 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 2: internal conflicts then take us over, and at that point 379 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: we become a poor, more divided, and more violent nation. 380 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: I think that we're on the high ground right now. 381 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: We should work very hard to stay there. I hope 382 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: Speaker Johnson will lead in that capacity. I hope the 383 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: Congress people will support his efforts to get this Ukraine 384 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 2: funding because I believe it's the pivot for the future. 385 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 2: As do you. 386 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: Listen, Jim, I want to thank you for joining me. 387 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 1: I really appreciate you lending your voice to help convince 388 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: our fellow Americans that we have to support Ukraine and 389 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: we have to win the war against Russian aggression. And 390 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,479 Speaker 1: I really appreciate what you're doing and I want to encourage 391 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 1: you to keep doing it. 392 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,719 Speaker 2: Thank you very much for the opportunity to be on 393 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 2: your podcast. You're a great voice in America and continue 394 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: to be and I'm very thankful and grateful for your leadership. 395 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,719 Speaker 1: And now I'm very pleased to welcome my guests, Congressman 396 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: Chuck Edwards, who represents North Carolina's eleventh district. He just 397 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: recently returned from a trip to Ukraine, and I asked 398 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: him to share his experience. Chuck, you and a bipartisan 399 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: group of House members visited Ukraine during the recent trips 400 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: to Europe during the House recess. Why did you want 401 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: to go? 402 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 3: Well, we've heard reports of what's going on in Ukraine. 403 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: We heard that the situation over there is becoming quite dire. 404 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 3: I don't know that I have trusted or been able 405 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 3: to trust the news reports that we got back or 406 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 3: that we get here in the United States. And I 407 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 3: felt it was important before I cast a vote or 408 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: take a position one way or another, that I get 409 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: a first hand accounting the boots on the ground. Perspective. 410 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: It was very impressive that you met with the chief 411 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: of the General Staff of the Polish military, General Kokula. 412 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: What was his take, He's the next door neighbor. They've 413 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: had a long history of being worried about the Russians, 414 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: and they're very, very pro American generally, So what sense 415 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: did you get from Poland? 416 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: The folks in Poland are extremely concerned about what Putin 417 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 3: would do next were he to take over Ukraine. First 418 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: of all, they don't want such a ruthless neighbor, and 419 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 3: they were very clear about what Putin's proximity to the 420 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 3: other NATO nations over there would mean in terms of 421 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: risk to the region. 422 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: Did your sense of how dangerous and how destructive Putin 423 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: is increase from this trip? Mean to give a difference, 424 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: and so how deeply dangerous he is as a person? 425 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 3: Oh? Unquestionably. As we look at the use reports back 426 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: here at home, those few that we get, we see 427 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 3: photos of buildings that have been destroyed. But the thing 428 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 3: that is missing is the human element. And the thing 429 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: that made the most difference for me is getting the 430 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 3: opportunity to meet with war crimes victims, survivors and see 431 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 3: the horrendous conditions that they had to live under putin occupation. 432 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: Those stories made the biggest difference for me. 433 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: Were they much more shocking than you expected given the 434 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 1: news reports? 435 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Yes. The vision of those who have 436 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 3: never experienced war is that there are tanks shooting back 437 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 3: and forth at one another and citizens are somewhat exonerated 438 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 3: from the destruction. But that's just not the case. We 439 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: learned from the Minister of Defense in Ukraine that Russia 440 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 3: is targeting non military targets. Ninety seven percent of the 441 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 3: attacks by Putin have been on non military targets, targets 442 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 3: like hotels, hospitals, pharmacies, schools, churches, where they're innocent people 443 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 3: trying to go about their daily lives. 444 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: Don't you get the sense that Putin is literally trying 445 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: to destroy the Ukrainian capacity to resistant. Rather than focusing 446 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: on the army, He's deliberately trying to destroy the civilian 447 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: infrastructure that everything rests on. 448 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 3: He is most certainly trying to destroy the infrastructure and 449 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: the will of the Ukrainian people. That part's not working. 450 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 3: In fact, the troops that they have heard from over 451 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: there have said very openly that their goal is to 452 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 3: make the Ukrainian people suffer, and that's certainly coming out 453 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 3: in the way that Putin is approaching the attacks on Ukraine. 454 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: And when you talk to Ukrainians, I mean, how determined 455 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: are they to resist? 456 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 3: They are absolutely determined. I have never seen before such 457 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: a strong will in a people in a nation. They 458 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 3: just don't have the resources. They're getting ready to call 459 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 3: out a number of other folks to join their army. 460 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 3: I don't know that it would be appropriate for me 461 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 3: to mention that number, but they've changed the age at 462 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 3: which folks can be drafted. They expected a fairly large 463 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 3: number of troops to be mobilized in the next few weeks. 464 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 3: They're just out of resources. They need air defense systems. 465 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 3: President Zelenski told me that he has a number of 466 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 3: brigades that have absolutely no equipment and that they're being 467 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 3: outshelled ten to one. They take ten incoming shells for 468 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 3: everyone that they can return. The will of the people 469 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: is there, they just need the equipment and the ammunition 470 00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 3: to be able to defend them. 471 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: From your perspective as an American, how big a disaster 472 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: and a danger would the collapse of Ukraine and the 473 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: appearance of the Russians on the Ukrainian Polish border and 474 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: the increased aggressiveness of the Russians against Latvia and Lithuania 475 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: and Estonia. Is that an increased risk for America. 476 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 3: There is an unbelievable increased risk to America if, for 477 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: no other reason we know that Putin will not stop. 478 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: There there will be huge increases in risk to our 479 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 3: NATO allies, which are our direct friends and in many 480 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,959 Speaker 3: cases neighbors. The world economy would certainly change. Not only 481 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: would there be risk to our European neighbors and NATO neighbors, 482 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 3: in the United States would be empowering a murderous regime. 483 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 3: And let's not forget that the world is watching. China 484 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 3: is watching, North Korea is watching. At what America's tolerance 485 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 3: for defending democracy is. They would feel very much empowered 486 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 3: were the United States to begin to sit back at 487 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 3: this point and allow Ukraine to crumble. 488 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: Did this increase your belief that we have to pass 489 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: some kind of program to get military assistance to Ukraine 490 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 1: to stop Russia. 491 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: It certainly was convincing to me that we as Americans 492 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 3: cannot sit back on our hills and watch this, Nor 493 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 3: are we a people that would allow such cruelty to 494 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: continue to take place. One of two things is going 495 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 3: to happen in Ukraine. Either it will continue to be 496 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 3: a democracy, as imperfect as it may be, or it's 497 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 3: going to fall and crumble to a Marxist Socialist kg 498 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 3: be card carrying dictator. One of those two things are 499 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 3: going to happen, and it will not remain a democracy 500 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 3: if the United States does not participate. There is no 501 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 3: question about that Ukraine is on the verge of losing 502 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 3: ground right now. At this time or at the point 503 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 3: that I was in Kiev, I learned that Russia occupies 504 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: twenty eight percent of Ukrainian territory right now, and they're 505 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 3: taking incoming fire every single night over there. So the 506 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 3: likelihood they're going to be giving up ground soon without 507 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: additional equipment is pretty high. 508 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: What do you say back home when you have constituents 509 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: who walk up in for whatever reason, they're either skeptical 510 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: or opposed to helping Ukraine, what do you say, having 511 00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: actually been there. 512 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 3: I'm going to be saying that until you've stood in 513 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 3: the dark, dank, smelly, moldy basement of a Ukrainian school 514 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 3: where one hundred and thirty six people were crowded in 515 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: and imprisoned for twenty seven consecutive days, with very little 516 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 3: to survive on where people were allowed to die in 517 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 3: that basement and decaying bodies were piling up in the corner. 518 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 3: And until you've heard those stories from the people that 519 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: lived it and witnessed it and looked through their tears, 520 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 3: you can't have a real appreciation for what's taking place 521 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: over there. And I don't believe that there is an 522 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 3: American amongst us that could have listened to those stories, 523 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 3: smelled that smell, imagine those bodies in a corner, and 524 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: said no, the United States still should not help. 525 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: I have to say, as a're a Speaker of the House, 526 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 1: I have enormous respect for what Mike Johnson is going through. 527 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: A speaker, I think he has the hardest assignment of 528 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: any speaker since the Civil War. The margin virtually doesn't exist. 529 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: Do you think you'll be able to convince enough of 530 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: your colleagues to get something through in the next week 531 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: or two. 532 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 3: I certainly know that I'm doing everything that I can 533 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 3: do to convince us to get something through. And you're 534 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: absolutely right, Speaker Johnson is a remarkable man. He's a 535 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 3: great leader. I believe he's also got his priorities straight. 536 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 3: It's been very difficult for him to bring something forward 537 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 3: like Ukraine while we're still fighting to fund our own government. 538 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 3: It's been very difficult to pay attention to Ukraine while 539 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 3: we have such a critical issue such as FAISA that 540 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 3: is scheduled to expire here in just a few days. 541 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,479 Speaker 3: It's been tough for him not only to deal with 542 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 3: all these issues, but to keep those prioritized and keep 543 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 3: us focused here in the House. And I have the 544 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 3: utmost respect for him, and I believe that he will 545 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: ultimately come to the conclusion that the right thing to do, 546 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: once we've dealt with these other issues that affect Americans today, 547 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: is to begin the conversation around Ukraine and what we 548 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 3: can responsibly do. A lot of folks believe that all 549 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 3: we have to do is just simply send a cashiers 550 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 3: check over there, and that's just not the case. We 551 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 3: need to double down on sanctions. I learned when I 552 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 3: was in Ukraine. The sanctions are not working, and there 553 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 3: are many sanctions that are available to help bring Russia 554 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 3: to its neees that we've not yet implemented. There's the 555 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 3: least loan program. We've heard a lot of talk about 556 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 3: that would help protect the American taxpayer, and there's also 557 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 3: the possibility that we could see some Russian assets to 558 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 3: pay for this. There are lots of different angles that 559 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 3: we should take, and I'm really confident that once we 560 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 3: get our top issues dealt with here for America, that 561 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 3: the Speaker is going to be willing for us to 562 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 3: turn some attention towards Ukraine. 563 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: Well, listen, I'm delighted with your citizenship and your courage, 564 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: your willingness to go into a war zone, and the clear, 565 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: decisive message you're bringing back home, and I just want 566 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: to thank you for your service to America. 567 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: Well, thank you. It is certainly a privilege and an 568 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 3: honor to be able to serve. 569 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Governor Jim Gilmour and Congressman 570 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,479 Speaker 1: Chuck Edwards. You can learn more about why the United 571 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: States should continue to fund Ukraine on our show page 572 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Ginglish three 573 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 1: sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our 574 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was 575 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley, Special thanks to the team at 576 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 577 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 578 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,719 Speaker 1: five stars and give us to review so others can 579 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of Newtsworld 580 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: can sign up for my three free weekly columns at 581 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 1: Gingrich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 582 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: This is newts World.