1 00:00:15,410 --> 00:00:22,370 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Tim here with an exciting announcement about the Cautionary Club, 2 00:00:22,690 --> 00:00:26,850 Speaker 1: our Patreon community for Cautionary Tales listeners. So many of 3 00:00:26,850 --> 00:00:30,210 Speaker 1: you joined our live table read earlier this year that 4 00:00:30,330 --> 00:00:33,610 Speaker 1: we're doing it again. Join me and I production team 5 00:00:33,770 --> 00:00:37,690 Speaker 1: for a live reading of an unreleased episode about the 6 00:00:37,730 --> 00:00:43,410 Speaker 1: people who almost invented the iPhone fifteen years early and 7 00:00:43,450 --> 00:00:46,770 Speaker 1: the surprising reasons they failed. This will be a chance 8 00:00:46,850 --> 00:00:49,010 Speaker 1: for you to see how the stories we tell are 9 00:00:49,010 --> 00:00:53,490 Speaker 1: developed in real time and ask your burning questions about 10 00:00:53,490 --> 00:00:57,010 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales. It's on the eighth of July at five 11 00:00:57,050 --> 00:01:01,090 Speaker 1: pm UK or noon Eastern. If you join the Patreon 12 00:01:01,170 --> 00:01:03,770 Speaker 1: before then, or if you're already a member, you'll get 13 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:10,170 Speaker 1: your exclusive invitation. Head to Patreon dot com slash Cautionary Club. 14 00:01:10,450 --> 00:01:14,050 Speaker 1: That's Patreon, p A, T R e O N dot 15 00:01:14,090 --> 00:01:26,210 Speaker 1: com slash Cautionary Club. Britannia the farthest the leakist province 16 00:01:26,290 --> 00:01:32,010 Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire three ninety CE, A harsh, misty 17 00:01:32,130 --> 00:01:40,650 Speaker 1: land of savages and strange mystics. Forty thousand soldiers about 18 00:01:40,650 --> 00:01:44,490 Speaker 1: an eighth of the imperial army, and needed to control 19 00:01:44,610 --> 00:01:50,010 Speaker 1: the unruly native tribes, protect the archipelago from pirates and 20 00:01:50,250 --> 00:01:54,770 Speaker 1: push any marauder's back over Hadrian's Wall and into Scotland. 21 00:01:57,290 --> 00:02:01,010 Speaker 1: Such a mighty army needs a tremendous leader, and they 22 00:02:01,050 --> 00:02:08,530 Speaker 1: have one in the shape of Magnus Maximus. Maximus is 23 00:02:08,530 --> 00:02:12,490 Speaker 1: a distinctuish general. As a younger man, he helped restore 24 00:02:12,730 --> 00:02:16,770 Speaker 1: order after the Picts from Scotland, the Scotty from Ireland 25 00:02:17,170 --> 00:02:21,410 Speaker 1: and the Saxons from the continent joined forces to attack 26 00:02:21,570 --> 00:02:26,570 Speaker 1: Roman Britannia in the Great Barbarian Conspiracy of three six 27 00:02:26,770 --> 00:02:31,690 Speaker 1: seven Ceve. Then he fought in successful campaigns against the 28 00:02:31,730 --> 00:02:36,090 Speaker 1: Moors in North Africa and the Alamanni on the Danube River. 29 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:43,210 Speaker 1: For ten years now, Maximus has governed Britannia. He's put 30 00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:46,970 Speaker 1: down raids by the Picts, built a huge church on 31 00:02:47,050 --> 00:02:51,330 Speaker 1: London's Tower Hill, and forced the country to bend to 32 00:02:51,410 --> 00:02:55,770 Speaker 1: his will. But he can't wait to leave this wet, 33 00:02:55,970 --> 00:03:01,850 Speaker 1: windy and wild Isle, this backwater of the empire. He 34 00:03:01,930 --> 00:03:06,930 Speaker 1: spies opportunity back on the mainland. A young, unpopular emperor 35 00:03:07,370 --> 00:03:11,170 Speaker 1: sits on the throne in Rome. His courtiers are turning 36 00:03:11,210 --> 00:03:20,010 Speaker 1: against him and rivals are carving their armies. Maximus is 37 00:03:20,010 --> 00:03:23,370 Speaker 1: a great military general, and he leads the biggest, toughest 38 00:03:23,610 --> 00:03:28,650 Speaker 1: army in the Empire. He instructs the entire Roman garrison 39 00:03:28,690 --> 00:03:32,530 Speaker 1: of Britannia to board a fleet of ships, and they 40 00:03:32,570 --> 00:03:38,010 Speaker 1: sail for the mainland and victory. If only Maximus have 41 00:03:38,170 --> 00:03:43,970 Speaker 1: consulted the history books first, I'm Tim Harford, and you're 42 00:03:44,050 --> 00:04:12,930 Speaker 1: listening to cautionary Tales. Magnus Maximus wasn't the first governor 43 00:04:12,970 --> 00:04:17,170 Speaker 1: of Britannia with ambitions to be a Roman emperor. Here 44 00:04:17,210 --> 00:04:19,370 Speaker 1: to tell us all about him and the history he 45 00:04:19,490 --> 00:04:23,610 Speaker 1: should have studied is Paul Cooper, presenter of the podcast 46 00:04:24,170 --> 00:04:28,890 Speaker 1: Fall of Civilizations, Stories of Greatness and Decline, and the 47 00:04:28,930 --> 00:04:32,370 Speaker 1: author of a book of the same name. Paul, Welcome 48 00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:33,330 Speaker 1: to caution Details. 49 00:04:33,850 --> 00:04:35,010 Speaker 2: That's a great pleasure to be here. 50 00:04:35,290 --> 00:04:37,810 Speaker 1: Paul. You're going to tell us all about Magnus Maximus. 51 00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:40,450 Speaker 1: But first I wanted to know what attracted you to 52 00:04:40,530 --> 00:04:44,690 Speaker 1: studying the Fall rather than the Rise of Civilizations. 53 00:04:45,570 --> 00:04:48,730 Speaker 2: My PhD focused on the idea of the ruin in 54 00:04:48,770 --> 00:04:53,450 Speaker 2: literature and film, and also how various ruins have become 55 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:57,770 Speaker 2: figures of importance for culture throughout history. So I've always 56 00:04:57,770 --> 00:05:00,010 Speaker 2: been drawn to the idea of the ruin, what they 57 00:05:00,050 --> 00:05:03,450 Speaker 2: mean and what they've meant for people who are creating 58 00:05:03,490 --> 00:05:06,330 Speaker 2: works of art. Ruins are amazing spaces. 59 00:05:06,490 --> 00:05:09,570 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was really struck just reading your your book, 60 00:05:09,610 --> 00:05:13,450 Speaker 1: really struck by this amazing Anglo Saxon poem about a 61 00:05:13,530 --> 00:05:16,450 Speaker 1: ruined Roman bath house. And I've never encountered it before, 62 00:05:16,450 --> 00:05:17,450 Speaker 1: but it's a spellbinding. 63 00:05:17,690 --> 00:05:19,850 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's an old poem called the Ruin, which has 64 00:05:19,890 --> 00:05:22,890 Speaker 2: found in the collection known as the Exeter Book, and 65 00:05:22,930 --> 00:05:27,410 Speaker 2: it's a marvelous rendition of a person writing in Old English, 66 00:05:27,650 --> 00:05:31,610 Speaker 2: a kind of Anglo Saxon, early medieval British person wandering 67 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:35,410 Speaker 2: through a ruined bath house and viewing the crumbling pillars. 68 00:05:35,890 --> 00:05:39,850 Speaker 2: The bath's now overgrown with weed, with frogs, you know, 69 00:05:39,930 --> 00:05:43,250 Speaker 2: jumping in and out of the pools. And as they're 70 00:05:43,250 --> 00:05:47,610 Speaker 2: walking these shattered bath halls, they're imagining the place as 71 00:05:47,610 --> 00:05:50,650 Speaker 2: it used to be, feasts that might have gone on here, 72 00:05:50,770 --> 00:05:53,010 Speaker 2: bright warriors in their armor who might have come to 73 00:05:53,050 --> 00:05:56,290 Speaker 2: celebrate their victories, the kings and the great society that 74 00:05:56,330 --> 00:05:59,250 Speaker 2: once built this. And it's believed that this poem is 75 00:05:59,290 --> 00:06:02,610 Speaker 2: written about the Roman baths in the town of Bath. 76 00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:06,690 Speaker 2: One example of many of a person in history wandering 77 00:06:06,730 --> 00:06:09,610 Speaker 2: through the ruins of a society that came before, and 78 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:12,250 Speaker 2: having that amazing experience that people always seem to have 79 00:06:12,290 --> 00:06:15,170 Speaker 2: in these ruined places, which is a moment of contact 80 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:18,770 Speaker 2: with the people of the past, a sudden appreciation not 81 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:23,050 Speaker 2: only of the power of time and its immense size, 82 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:27,570 Speaker 2: but also the ability of human monuments to survive the 83 00:06:27,690 --> 00:06:29,330 Speaker 2: ravages of that very same force. 84 00:06:30,090 --> 00:06:32,890 Speaker 1: It does raise the question of, well, how could a 85 00:06:32,930 --> 00:06:39,130 Speaker 1: civilization build such remarkable monuments, achieve such heights of greatness, 86 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:42,330 Speaker 1: and yet somehow that civilization is no longer with us, 87 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:46,050 Speaker 1: which is It's something you explore in your podcast and 88 00:06:46,410 --> 00:06:49,690 Speaker 1: in your book on Cautionary Tales. We are scholars of 89 00:06:50,330 --> 00:06:52,210 Speaker 1: failure with fascinated by disaster. 90 00:06:52,690 --> 00:06:54,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, that we have in common. 91 00:06:54,330 --> 00:06:59,330 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the fall of civilizations seems it's cautionary tales 92 00:06:59,370 --> 00:07:04,250 Speaker 1: in extreme slow mo. While you're just going yes, I 93 00:07:04,290 --> 00:07:06,410 Speaker 1: really appreciate the crossovers between the podcasts. 94 00:07:06,730 --> 00:07:09,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I mean there's a human fascination with disaster, 95 00:07:09,730 --> 00:07:13,370 Speaker 2: isn't there. Traditional view of history is one of monuments 96 00:07:13,410 --> 00:07:16,610 Speaker 2: and great men and victorious battles, But actually the story 97 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:19,370 Speaker 2: of failure is one that's completely ingrained in the human epic. 98 00:07:19,690 --> 00:07:22,370 Speaker 2: These stories of societal failure are as much a part 99 00:07:22,410 --> 00:07:25,410 Speaker 2: of us as those of success and triumph, So. 100 00:07:26,130 --> 00:07:28,930 Speaker 1: Trying to draw out some common threads then in why 101 00:07:29,010 --> 00:07:34,010 Speaker 1: civilizations do fail, one theme that comes up again and 102 00:07:34,010 --> 00:07:39,450 Speaker 1: again is violence. And obviously violence is needed to conquer, 103 00:07:40,370 --> 00:07:43,410 Speaker 1: but it poses dangers to the aggressors too, doesn't it. 104 00:07:43,650 --> 00:07:46,810 Speaker 2: Well, that's right, yeah, any empire is by definition a 105 00:07:46,930 --> 00:07:52,170 Speaker 2: violent undertaking. But also some empires who build their power 106 00:07:52,210 --> 00:07:57,730 Speaker 2: build their territory through this bellicose approach, this excessive, expansionist, 107 00:07:57,890 --> 00:08:01,850 Speaker 2: aggressive violence, are actually sowing the seeds of their own 108 00:08:01,850 --> 00:08:03,130 Speaker 2: destruction in doing so. 109 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:07,490 Speaker 1: The Assyrians bring to mind they were quite notorious. 110 00:08:07,570 --> 00:08:11,890 Speaker 2: Absolutely. The Assyrian Empire flourishes mostly in the first half 111 00:08:11,930 --> 00:08:16,650 Speaker 2: of the last millennium of the BC period. It conquers 112 00:08:16,690 --> 00:08:20,850 Speaker 2: its neighbours with extreme violence, you know, piling pyramids of 113 00:08:20,890 --> 00:08:24,530 Speaker 2: heads outside cities, flaming people alive, you name it. You know. 114 00:08:24,530 --> 00:08:27,610 Speaker 2: Assyrian kings have done it, and people who rebel against 115 00:08:27,650 --> 00:08:33,730 Speaker 2: the empire are slaughtered executed in displays of public brutality. 116 00:08:34,250 --> 00:08:38,050 Speaker 2: Often entire populations a uprooted and sent to a different 117 00:08:38,050 --> 00:08:39,890 Speaker 2: part of the empire where they don't know the land, 118 00:08:39,930 --> 00:08:42,970 Speaker 2: don't know the territory, you know, disconnected from their ability 119 00:08:43,050 --> 00:08:46,090 Speaker 2: to exploit their knowledge of the land to resist empire. 120 00:08:46,850 --> 00:08:51,050 Speaker 2: But in this kind of ruthless, remorseless approach, the Assyrian 121 00:08:51,050 --> 00:08:55,170 Speaker 2: Empire becomes absolutely despised around the region. In the end, 122 00:08:55,410 --> 00:09:01,210 Speaker 2: as the seventh century BC wears on and the last 123 00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:05,090 Speaker 2: great king of Assyria, Ashurbanipal, dies, you get a succession 124 00:09:05,130 --> 00:09:09,930 Speaker 2: of weak kings followed by a rebellion in Babylon. Suddenly 125 00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:12,290 Speaker 2: are horse rearing people called the Meads who live in 126 00:09:12,330 --> 00:09:15,970 Speaker 2: the Zagros mountains of Iran join in to invade Assyria. 127 00:09:16,490 --> 00:09:20,290 Speaker 2: You get rebellions in Egypt, and suddenly revolts happening all 128 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:23,690 Speaker 2: around the empire as outside enemies are uniting against it. 129 00:09:24,530 --> 00:09:27,810 Speaker 2: The Babylonians and Meads sign a pact in the ruins 130 00:09:27,810 --> 00:09:30,410 Speaker 2: of an Assyrian city called Ashore, and in the next 131 00:09:30,490 --> 00:09:32,730 Speaker 2: year is really only a period of about three years, 132 00:09:33,290 --> 00:09:35,770 Speaker 2: the Assyrian Empire, what was the most powerful empire in 133 00:09:35,810 --> 00:09:39,050 Speaker 2: the world, is completely dismantled. Many of its cities never 134 00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:42,050 Speaker 2: recover as centers of population because. 135 00:09:41,850 --> 00:09:43,850 Speaker 1: I mean, they didn't make any friends, because they were 136 00:09:43,970 --> 00:09:47,890 Speaker 1: incredibly brutal. So when the end comes, it comes incredibly quickly. 137 00:09:48,970 --> 00:09:53,250 Speaker 1: And another theme that you pick out is taxation. And again, 138 00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:56,970 Speaker 1: if you're going to have a successful civilization, you need 139 00:09:57,050 --> 00:10:02,810 Speaker 1: some kind of mechanism for levying resources from the populace 140 00:10:02,850 --> 00:10:06,650 Speaker 1: and deploying those resources to assemble armies and to build 141 00:10:06,650 --> 00:10:08,930 Speaker 1: these great monuments and so on. But of course it 142 00:10:09,090 --> 00:10:11,450 Speaker 1: its possible to overdo it. And you point to both 143 00:10:11,490 --> 00:10:15,290 Speaker 1: the hand Innersity of China and the khmerd Innersity of 144 00:10:15,330 --> 00:10:20,290 Speaker 1: Cambodia as the civilizations that overdid the taxation, and then 145 00:10:20,450 --> 00:10:21,490 Speaker 1: that was their undoing. 146 00:10:22,010 --> 00:10:25,570 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I wouldn't describe it as excessive taxation 147 00:10:25,730 --> 00:10:29,410 Speaker 2: so much as an entrenched sense of inequality, which you 148 00:10:29,450 --> 00:10:32,850 Speaker 2: see in places like China are obviously built on laboring peasants. 149 00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:36,450 Speaker 2: You see in Rome built on a slave class, a 150 00:10:36,570 --> 00:10:40,170 Speaker 2: vast slave class. Ancient Greek cities, in Athens, you might 151 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:43,610 Speaker 2: have a slave population about equal to the free population, 152 00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:47,410 Speaker 2: but in Sparta, the slave population is ten times the 153 00:10:47,450 --> 00:10:50,250 Speaker 2: size of the free population, made up of entire conquered 154 00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:53,410 Speaker 2: ethnicities who are forced to work in the fields, and 155 00:10:53,450 --> 00:10:56,490 Speaker 2: the entirety of the agricultural sector of this city is 156 00:10:56,770 --> 00:11:00,290 Speaker 2: propped up by people who hate and despise the people 157 00:11:00,330 --> 00:11:03,850 Speaker 2: they're feeding. This means that the Spartan army is never 158 00:11:03,890 --> 00:11:06,890 Speaker 2: able to leave the city for very long. It's never 159 00:11:06,930 --> 00:11:11,130 Speaker 2: able to stop defending these constant threatened rebellions from this 160 00:11:11,210 --> 00:11:14,210 Speaker 2: hell up class. So this is one example in which 161 00:11:14,250 --> 00:11:18,330 Speaker 2: inequality becomes a great weakening agent in a society, preventing 162 00:11:18,370 --> 00:11:21,850 Speaker 2: them from engaging in long term planning, from feeding their 163 00:11:21,890 --> 00:11:25,850 Speaker 2: population without immense resentment building. And there are many examples 164 00:11:25,890 --> 00:11:26,730 Speaker 2: throughout history of this. 165 00:11:27,210 --> 00:11:30,450 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean some of them perhaps not very historical 166 00:11:30,490 --> 00:11:35,290 Speaker 1: at all. It's very striking to draw these parallels between 167 00:11:35,330 --> 00:11:38,090 Speaker 1: the modern world and these ancient civilizations. But every now 168 00:11:38,130 --> 00:11:41,610 Speaker 1: and then I encountered something in the book for which 169 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:43,330 Speaker 1: I think, oh, I'm not sure we have a parallel 170 00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:46,490 Speaker 1: for that one. And one of them was the hand 171 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:50,690 Speaker 1: innisty in China. The power very much in the hands 172 00:11:50,730 --> 00:11:53,250 Speaker 1: of women, which of course we do have in the 173 00:11:53,250 --> 00:11:57,330 Speaker 1: modern world, and eunuchs. Not so many eunuchs in power 174 00:11:57,450 --> 00:11:59,650 Speaker 1: in the modern world. So tell me about them. 175 00:11:59,810 --> 00:12:02,650 Speaker 2: Yeah, that hand dynasty in China is a fascinating example. 176 00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:06,490 Speaker 2: There's an increasing concentration of power in the imperial Palace 177 00:12:06,650 --> 00:12:10,450 Speaker 2: in Luo Yang, and the two great power blocks inside 178 00:12:10,490 --> 00:12:15,650 Speaker 2: the palace are the eunuch attendants and the dowager empresses, 179 00:12:15,770 --> 00:12:18,770 Speaker 2: the mothers of both the emperor and previous emperors, who 180 00:12:18,770 --> 00:12:23,250 Speaker 2: have passed on their power and prestige depended completely on 181 00:12:23,850 --> 00:12:26,930 Speaker 2: their sons, their progeny, and how close they were to 182 00:12:26,970 --> 00:12:31,690 Speaker 2: the imperial throne. So this meant a constant jockeying for 183 00:12:31,890 --> 00:12:36,410 Speaker 2: power among these rivals. Dowagers would poison the sons of 184 00:12:36,650 --> 00:12:39,930 Speaker 2: other empresses in order to get them off the throne 185 00:12:39,970 --> 00:12:43,250 Speaker 2: and get their son just one step closer to inheriting it. 186 00:12:43,930 --> 00:12:47,170 Speaker 2: In this way, the Imperial Palace of China ran red 187 00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:52,210 Speaker 2: with blood. Now, eunuchs served in the palace because essentially 188 00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:54,650 Speaker 2: this was the place where the emperor lived with his women, 189 00:12:54,890 --> 00:12:59,330 Speaker 2: and I mean a It was thought to be safer 190 00:12:59,370 --> 00:13:02,530 Speaker 2: to castrate these men in order to prevent them from 191 00:13:02,970 --> 00:13:06,130 Speaker 2: entangling themselves with palace women, shall we say, But it 192 00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:08,570 Speaker 2: was also a way of ensuring that they would have 193 00:13:08,650 --> 00:13:12,130 Speaker 2: no aspiration for the throne. It was thought that someone 194 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:15,570 Speaker 2: who was unable to have children would have less desire 195 00:13:15,650 --> 00:13:18,650 Speaker 2: to topple the emperor do a palace coup. But what 196 00:13:18,650 --> 00:13:21,810 Speaker 2: we see in these centuries is a power contest between 197 00:13:21,810 --> 00:13:25,450 Speaker 2: the dowager empresses and the eunuchs, with the emperor being 198 00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:28,210 Speaker 2: essentially a puppet, a kind of game piece that's being 199 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:30,690 Speaker 2: passed between them. And for this reason, the emperor was 200 00:13:30,810 --> 00:13:34,050 Speaker 2: very often a child. The Emperor Shan was actually a 201 00:13:34,210 --> 00:13:37,450 Speaker 2: six month old baby who was crowned emperor while still 202 00:13:37,490 --> 00:13:40,490 Speaker 2: in his crib. This is because children were easier to control. 203 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:45,210 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's the ultimate symbolic head of state, right, 204 00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:47,610 Speaker 1: I mean, if it's a six month old baby, you 205 00:13:47,650 --> 00:13:50,530 Speaker 1: can have all of the pomp and the ceremony and 206 00:13:50,610 --> 00:13:55,170 Speaker 1: the genuflecting to the imperial throne, and none of the 207 00:13:55,170 --> 00:13:58,250 Speaker 1: difficulty of them actually having any opinions other than I 208 00:13:58,290 --> 00:13:59,370 Speaker 1: need my nappy changing. 209 00:13:59,610 --> 00:14:02,250 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, But I would contend that that does 210 00:14:02,290 --> 00:14:05,490 Speaker 2: have echoes in the modern gerontocracy that seems to be 211 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:09,810 Speaker 2: taking over in places like the United States. Ronald Reagan 212 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:13,170 Speaker 2: used to joke that Soviet premiers kept dying on me. 213 00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:15,410 Speaker 2: I think he said, but it was true. In the 214 00:14:15,450 --> 00:14:18,330 Speaker 2: Soviet Union, they had a problem with joe intocracy, with 215 00:14:18,370 --> 00:14:21,930 Speaker 2: passing on power to the next generation. Power became incredibly 216 00:14:22,010 --> 00:14:25,170 Speaker 2: encrusted in these men who are in the seventies and eighties, 217 00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:29,010 Speaker 2: and the society really didn't have a healthy mechanism for 218 00:14:29,290 --> 00:14:33,210 Speaker 2: passing that power down. We now see that same situation 219 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:37,290 Speaker 2: developing in the United States, where the election before last 220 00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:41,850 Speaker 2: saw Donald Trump and Joe Biden contesting the presidency. You know, 221 00:14:41,890 --> 00:14:45,890 Speaker 2: both of them in their seventies, and it's that inability 222 00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:48,130 Speaker 2: to pass on power to the next generation I think 223 00:14:48,130 --> 00:14:50,610 Speaker 2: has echoes in something like the Imperial Court of China. 224 00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:54,050 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is remarkable. I think Biden was the oldest 225 00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:57,370 Speaker 1: president ever and if Trump survives to the end of 226 00:14:57,370 --> 00:15:00,370 Speaker 1: this term, he will be even older than Biden was. 227 00:15:01,050 --> 00:15:02,890 Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan was. I mean, he was thought of as 228 00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:06,170 Speaker 1: an old man, but he was young compared to these guys. 229 00:15:06,850 --> 00:15:10,130 Speaker 1: He diffused the issue of his age by saying, I 230 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:15,210 Speaker 1: refused to exploit my opponent's youth and inexperience for political reasons, 231 00:15:15,250 --> 00:15:18,530 Speaker 1: and that kind of he knew what he was doing. 232 00:15:19,610 --> 00:15:22,770 Speaker 1: One more question before we return to Roman Britain, and 233 00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:27,570 Speaker 1: the teaser we began with is environmental degradation, because this 234 00:15:27,690 --> 00:15:32,690 Speaker 1: is I think often associated with the fall of civilizations. 235 00:15:32,730 --> 00:15:36,490 Speaker 1: I think Jared Diamond wrote a famous book Collapse. It 236 00:15:36,610 --> 00:15:39,610 Speaker 1: was very interested in this problem. Is it the case 237 00:15:39,690 --> 00:15:43,330 Speaker 1: that climate change or some other environmental problem has historically 238 00:15:43,410 --> 00:15:46,930 Speaker 1: often been the trigger for the fall of ancient civilizations. 239 00:15:47,130 --> 00:15:50,370 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an undeniable resonance with today that in a 240 00:15:50,450 --> 00:15:52,410 Speaker 2: very large number of the stories we've looked at, there 241 00:15:52,450 --> 00:15:56,930 Speaker 2: has been some element of environmental change that has struck 242 00:15:56,970 --> 00:16:01,970 Speaker 2: these societies. Some crucial examples are the Sumerian society, which 243 00:16:02,130 --> 00:16:05,970 Speaker 2: flourished in the third and second millenniums BC in the 244 00:16:06,050 --> 00:16:07,210 Speaker 2: valley of Mesopotamia. 245 00:16:07,730 --> 00:16:10,050 Speaker 1: It's not as famous as the Roman or the Greeks, 246 00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:15,050 Speaker 1: but the Sumerians they invented accountancy, they invented writing. They 247 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:17,250 Speaker 1: I mean, they invented the city. I mean, this is 248 00:16:17,290 --> 00:16:20,530 Speaker 1: really an incredibly important early civilization. 249 00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:25,290 Speaker 2: Yeah. They were one of the earliest city dwelling civilizations 250 00:16:25,770 --> 00:16:28,810 Speaker 2: to really create what we would think of as an empire, 251 00:16:29,130 --> 00:16:32,930 Speaker 2: multiple walled cities connected by trade networks going up and 252 00:16:32,970 --> 00:16:36,210 Speaker 2: down the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. As you say, the 253 00:16:36,210 --> 00:16:39,330 Speaker 2: first examples of writing in the world are found in 254 00:16:39,650 --> 00:16:43,730 Speaker 2: Mesopotamia and the city of Uruk. But as we get 255 00:16:43,770 --> 00:16:47,450 Speaker 2: to the end of the third millennium BC, so around 256 00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:51,490 Speaker 2: the year twenty two hundred BC, we get a small 257 00:16:51,690 --> 00:16:56,090 Speaker 2: localized climate shift that had kind of tendrils happening elsewhere 258 00:16:56,130 --> 00:16:58,290 Speaker 2: in the world. But in general, this was a kind 259 00:16:58,290 --> 00:17:02,050 Speaker 2: of Eurasian shift, perhaps a change in currents going over 260 00:17:02,090 --> 00:17:05,530 Speaker 2: the Sahara Desert, a drying of air around the Mediterranean. 261 00:17:05,930 --> 00:17:08,730 Speaker 2: And it must be underlined that this was a very 262 00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:10,930 Speaker 2: minor climate shift compared to what we're looking at in 263 00:17:10,930 --> 00:17:14,890 Speaker 2: the coming century. But nevertheless, this caused a period of 264 00:17:15,250 --> 00:17:19,130 Speaker 2: drought and aridity in the eastern Mediterranean and the Near East. 265 00:17:19,850 --> 00:17:23,810 Speaker 2: This meant that crops that were flourishing like wheat were 266 00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:27,290 Speaker 2: suddenly being replaced by hardier, more drought resistant and salt 267 00:17:27,330 --> 00:17:31,610 Speaker 2: resistant crops like barley. People began to starve in cities, 268 00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:36,210 Speaker 2: and crucially, because this was affecting the whole region, the 269 00:17:36,490 --> 00:17:40,250 Speaker 2: rivals of the Sumerians were struggling too. They were then 270 00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:43,650 Speaker 2: driven to raid and plunder in Sumerian lands. So we 271 00:17:43,690 --> 00:17:45,970 Speaker 2: see that as the environment tightens its news around a 272 00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:49,370 Speaker 2: whole region, that creates conflict, that creates the desire to 273 00:17:49,690 --> 00:17:54,170 Speaker 2: invade fertile, abundant areas. And this was too much for 274 00:17:54,210 --> 00:17:56,570 Speaker 2: the Sumerian society to handle, and each one of the 275 00:17:56,650 --> 00:18:01,010 Speaker 2: Sumerian cities is destroyed. In turn, we see that societies 276 00:18:01,050 --> 00:18:04,650 Speaker 2: from the past were sometimes completely destroyed by these climate 277 00:18:04,690 --> 00:18:07,450 Speaker 2: shifts that today we would hardly even notice. 278 00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:11,610 Speaker 1: This is caution detales. I'm speaking to Paul Cooper, the 279 00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:16,770 Speaker 1: broadcaster and author about his book and podcast Fall of Civilizations, 280 00:18:17,290 --> 00:18:20,770 Speaker 1: and after the break we will return to Roman Britain 281 00:18:20,970 --> 00:18:23,490 Speaker 1: and Paul is going to tell us what happened to 282 00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:37,930 Speaker 1: Magnus Maximus. We're back. I'm Tim Harford talking to the 283 00:18:37,970 --> 00:18:42,930 Speaker 1: broadcaster and author Paul Cooper about Fall of Civilizations, which 284 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:46,210 Speaker 1: is both a book and a podcast. Paul, I wanted 285 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:49,250 Speaker 1: you to take me to Roman Britain really and perhaps 286 00:18:49,330 --> 00:18:53,890 Speaker 1: begin by telling me what the Romans initially thought when 287 00:18:53,930 --> 00:18:57,210 Speaker 1: they arrived in Britain and how difficult did they find 288 00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:58,650 Speaker 1: Britain to colonize. 289 00:18:59,290 --> 00:19:02,730 Speaker 2: Britain had a unique place in the Roman Empire. It 290 00:19:02,810 --> 00:19:05,530 Speaker 2: was a large island, which is a kind of territory 291 00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:10,890 Speaker 2: that they had never really conquered before. But this provided 292 00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:14,770 Speaker 2: problems of supply, problems of connection to the mainland. There 293 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:17,010 Speaker 2: would always mean that Britain sat in a slightly awkward 294 00:19:17,010 --> 00:19:21,090 Speaker 2: position within the Western Empire. When the Romans arrived in Britain. 295 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:24,690 Speaker 2: They loved playing up how wild and untamed and semi 296 00:19:24,730 --> 00:19:29,090 Speaker 2: monstrous the people were. The Roman writer Amianus Marcolinus even 297 00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:33,210 Speaker 2: famously describes Britain's sitting in swamp water up to their 298 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:36,290 Speaker 2: necks for days on end, living only on nuts. 299 00:19:36,370 --> 00:19:37,410 Speaker 1: I mean, story checks out. 300 00:19:37,490 --> 00:19:41,010 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you see, jokes about British weather and bad 301 00:19:41,050 --> 00:19:43,170 Speaker 2: food have been going on for two millennia, it seems. 302 00:19:43,450 --> 00:19:47,930 Speaker 2: But when Rome slowly conquered and began a process of 303 00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:52,570 Speaker 2: Romanization in Britain, they would always find it arrestive province. 304 00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:56,610 Speaker 2: With its long coastline, it was always prone to attack 305 00:19:56,810 --> 00:20:00,410 Speaker 2: from people like the Atticotti and Scotty in Ireland. These 306 00:20:00,410 --> 00:20:05,130 Speaker 2: are kind of warlike tribal peoples from Saxon's Dutes, Geets, 307 00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:09,730 Speaker 2: you name it, coming from the east in Germany and Denmark, Norway, etc. 308 00:20:10,450 --> 00:20:14,450 Speaker 2: And from people beyond Hadrian's Wall, the northern limit of 309 00:20:14,490 --> 00:20:17,610 Speaker 2: the Empire, people who had become known as the Picts 310 00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:21,690 Speaker 2: due to the pictures that they painted on their skins. Now, 311 00:20:21,970 --> 00:20:25,490 Speaker 2: all of these threats menacing Roman Britain meant that it 312 00:20:26,010 --> 00:20:29,570 Speaker 2: needed a large garrison. This was somewhere between three to 313 00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:32,610 Speaker 2: four legions at various times, which is up to sixteen 314 00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:38,370 Speaker 2: thousand soldiers. But these were augmented by many thousands of auxiliaries, 315 00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:41,050 Speaker 2: who are usually local people who are armed and trained 316 00:20:41,050 --> 00:20:43,610 Speaker 2: and so on by Rome, but who aren't necessarily citizens. 317 00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:46,690 Speaker 1: Were they well integrated. Did the British kind of become 318 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:49,690 Speaker 1: citizens of the Empire in the same way that, for example, 319 00:20:49,730 --> 00:20:50,450 Speaker 1: the Gauls did. 320 00:20:50,610 --> 00:20:52,610 Speaker 2: It's not going question of debate, but I would say 321 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:55,610 Speaker 2: that Britain struggled to become as integrated as gaul which 322 00:20:55,650 --> 00:20:59,010 Speaker 2: is what we call France today. No Britain ever was 323 00:20:59,090 --> 00:21:01,850 Speaker 2: raised to the rank of equity, which was one of 324 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:04,930 Speaker 2: the highest ranks in Roman society, and was required to 325 00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:09,810 Speaker 2: hold positions of power to become a statesman. So we 326 00:21:09,890 --> 00:21:14,610 Speaker 2: get a sense that Britain's were never really considered fully Romanized. 327 00:21:15,210 --> 00:21:20,290 Speaker 2: Certainly in towns like Camulodenum, Colchester, or Londinium London, there 328 00:21:20,410 --> 00:21:24,690 Speaker 2: was a great Romanized population there. People were living large 329 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:29,050 Speaker 2: on olives and wine from gall red gloss pottery, all 330 00:21:29,090 --> 00:21:33,050 Speaker 2: of the signs and symbols of Roman excess and luxury. 331 00:21:33,330 --> 00:21:36,850 Speaker 2: People were building villas with mosaic flows. But outside in 332 00:21:36,890 --> 00:21:41,130 Speaker 2: the countryside people still lived in you know, roundhouses with 333 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:45,050 Speaker 2: turf walls and thatched ceilings, living much as people had 334 00:21:45,050 --> 00:21:47,570 Speaker 2: in the British iron Age. So we get the sense 335 00:21:47,610 --> 00:21:50,370 Speaker 2: of a two tier system, right. 336 00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:53,210 Speaker 1: So the old line one of the Romans ever done 337 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:55,290 Speaker 1: for us. The answer is, well, if you live in 338 00:21:55,290 --> 00:21:56,370 Speaker 1: the country, not very much. 339 00:21:56,410 --> 00:22:00,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right. You know, although it was subject 340 00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:04,370 Speaker 2: to invasions, raids from these people outside the Empire, the 341 00:22:04,410 --> 00:22:07,050 Speaker 2: time of Roman Britain was a time of relative peace 342 00:22:07,090 --> 00:22:10,690 Speaker 2: while the Empire flourished. When Roman arrived, Britain had been 343 00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:13,690 Speaker 2: a patchwork of you know, tribes like the. 344 00:22:13,570 --> 00:22:18,090 Speaker 1: Ikenai, famously led by Boudica or Bodhesia exactly, yes, who 345 00:22:18,130 --> 00:22:20,050 Speaker 1: gave the Romans quite a quite a scare. 346 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:23,210 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I live in Norwich, so Boudica is a 347 00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:25,330 Speaker 2: big figure for us. The Aquin I were our local 348 00:22:25,570 --> 00:22:29,690 Speaker 2: tribe and they burnt Colchester to the ground, something I 349 00:22:29,730 --> 00:22:31,330 Speaker 2: think that they've never quite forgiven us for. 350 00:22:32,010 --> 00:22:35,490 Speaker 1: So, I mean, this is an unruly place. It takes, 351 00:22:35,530 --> 00:22:38,970 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, a big army to keep the peace. 352 00:22:39,290 --> 00:22:41,370 Speaker 1: You also need a strong man. You need a strong 353 00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:46,450 Speaker 1: governor or strong generals to command that army. And we 354 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:50,050 Speaker 1: mentioned Magnus Maximus at the beginning of the conversation. But 355 00:22:50,050 --> 00:22:52,650 Speaker 1: Magnus Maximus wasn't the first of these these strong men. 356 00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:55,130 Speaker 1: So tell us about Clodius Albinus, because he seems very 357 00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:57,810 Speaker 1: I'd not heard of him before reading your book, and 358 00:22:57,850 --> 00:22:59,370 Speaker 1: he's a very intriguing figure. 359 00:22:59,530 --> 00:23:03,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a remarkable guy who's born in North Africa 360 00:23:03,610 --> 00:23:06,650 Speaker 2: and is a classic Roman statesman who's you know, flown 361 00:23:06,690 --> 00:23:10,530 Speaker 2: into Britain to rule over these rulely people as a Roman. 362 00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:13,930 Speaker 2: He is therefore in charge of one of the largest 363 00:23:14,050 --> 00:23:17,610 Speaker 2: armies in the Empire, which you know is necessary to 364 00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:21,170 Speaker 2: defend Britain from all the threats it faces, but also 365 00:23:21,410 --> 00:23:25,970 Speaker 2: provides an irresistible temptation to anyone who leads it. 366 00:23:26,050 --> 00:23:29,730 Speaker 1: Was he militarily successful, Yeah, absolutely, he's a good governor, 367 00:23:31,210 --> 00:23:33,570 Speaker 1: but the Empire is going through a period of political 368 00:23:33,650 --> 00:23:34,890 Speaker 1: upheaval and turmoil. 369 00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:37,770 Speaker 2: This is during the reign of the Emperor Commodace, who's 370 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:40,930 Speaker 2: memorably played by Juaquin Phoenix in the movie Gladiator. 371 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:44,010 Speaker 1: Yes, it's a terrible, terrible human being in the movie, 372 00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:47,730 Speaker 1: and it sounds like perhaps not much better in real life. 373 00:23:47,770 --> 00:23:49,650 Speaker 2: Well, actually, if you can believe it, I think the 374 00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:52,570 Speaker 2: movie had to dial down some of the insanity of Commodus. 375 00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:56,370 Speaker 2: Commodus was fascinated with gladiators and with the idea of 376 00:23:56,450 --> 00:23:59,090 Speaker 2: himself as a gladiator, and he would actually go into 377 00:23:59,090 --> 00:24:03,050 Speaker 2: the arena himself to kill animals like ostriches and giraffes 378 00:24:03,090 --> 00:24:06,290 Speaker 2: and you know, exotic animals of this kind. He wants 379 00:24:06,490 --> 00:24:09,290 Speaker 2: cut off the head of an ostrich and when to 380 00:24:09,330 --> 00:24:12,970 Speaker 2: the stands where the senators were sitting and shouted up 381 00:24:12,970 --> 00:24:16,010 Speaker 2: to them, you will be next. That's not cool, No, 382 00:24:17,050 --> 00:24:22,770 Speaker 2: it's certainly not. It's a larger than life character who's violent, mad, tyrannical, 383 00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:26,450 Speaker 2: you name it. But Commodist dies in one ninety two AD, 384 00:24:26,970 --> 00:24:30,570 Speaker 2: and suddenly the empire is up for grabs, and essentially 385 00:24:30,570 --> 00:24:34,650 Speaker 2: the two contestants who emerge as the last people standing 386 00:24:34,650 --> 00:24:36,530 Speaker 2: from a period of chaos that's called the Year of 387 00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:41,730 Speaker 2: the Five Emperors are Clodius Albinus in Britain and the 388 00:24:41,730 --> 00:24:45,210 Speaker 2: emperor Septimius Severus. These two come together at the Battle 389 00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:48,930 Speaker 2: of Lugdanum in one ninety five and it's an enormous 390 00:24:48,930 --> 00:24:52,770 Speaker 2: battle that takes place over two days, and Clodius Albinus 391 00:24:52,850 --> 00:24:56,330 Speaker 2: is finally defeated when he realizes he's going to lose. 392 00:24:56,370 --> 00:24:59,650 Speaker 2: He runs himself through with his dagger and the emperors 393 00:24:59,650 --> 00:25:03,770 Speaker 2: Septimis Severus tramples him with his horse. This is tragic 394 00:25:03,850 --> 00:25:07,850 Speaker 2: for Albinus personally, but for Roman Britain. His departure was 395 00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:09,450 Speaker 2: also a disaster. 396 00:25:09,370 --> 00:25:13,970 Speaker 1: Because he basically took the entire army to fight Septimius 397 00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:17,290 Speaker 1: and left Britain without an army, which sounds like it 398 00:25:17,370 --> 00:25:20,650 Speaker 1: might be an opportunity, but turns out that the opportunity 399 00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:21,650 Speaker 1: for the wrong kind of people. 400 00:25:21,850 --> 00:25:23,330 Speaker 2: Well that's right. I mean, if you're going to try 401 00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:25,570 Speaker 2: and seize the imperial throne, you need every man you 402 00:25:25,610 --> 00:25:28,410 Speaker 2: can take. The loss of a single unit could mean 403 00:25:28,450 --> 00:25:31,050 Speaker 2: the loss of a battle, so he took every one 404 00:25:31,050 --> 00:25:35,290 Speaker 2: of Britain's legions. But this leaves Britain largely defenseless. It's 405 00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:40,490 Speaker 2: raided by Picks from the North Atticotti from Ireland, who 406 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:43,810 Speaker 2: are rumored to eat human flesh. By the way, but 407 00:25:43,970 --> 00:25:47,770 Speaker 2: it wasn't only a military threat coming from outside. It 408 00:25:47,810 --> 00:25:50,930 Speaker 2: was also the collapse of the British economy. The entire 409 00:25:50,930 --> 00:25:55,090 Speaker 2: economy in Britain was predicated on the situation of forty 410 00:25:55,170 --> 00:25:59,330 Speaker 2: thousand armed Roman soldiers. There entire industries were built around 411 00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:07,170 Speaker 2: mining metal, smelting it, forging it into useful things nails, hobnails, swords, spears, etc. 412 00:26:08,050 --> 00:26:12,090 Speaker 2: And feeding vast force as well. Of course, the moment 413 00:26:12,130 --> 00:26:15,450 Speaker 2: these people depart, nobody in these industries is getting paid, 414 00:26:15,530 --> 00:26:18,890 Speaker 2: and you get a free fall economic collapse that affects 415 00:26:18,970 --> 00:26:20,370 Speaker 2: every part of Britain. 416 00:26:20,770 --> 00:26:24,810 Speaker 1: Presumably that also redounds to the harm of the Empire 417 00:26:24,810 --> 00:26:27,770 Speaker 1: as a whole. This source of tiin, source of metals, 418 00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:32,050 Speaker 1: source of tax revenue is in chaos. So the new emperor, 419 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:36,370 Speaker 1: Septimius Severus, he could presumably take an army into Britain 420 00:26:36,450 --> 00:26:40,570 Speaker 1: and pacify it again. What makes that difficult. 421 00:26:40,290 --> 00:26:43,810 Speaker 2: Well, this is what he does. Eventually, Severus travels to Britain. 422 00:26:43,930 --> 00:26:47,010 Speaker 2: He campaigns north of Hadrian's War for a while. He 423 00:26:47,050 --> 00:26:50,370 Speaker 2: seems to trample some poor peoples he encounters, but doesn't 424 00:26:50,370 --> 00:26:55,130 Speaker 2: achieve any kind of lasting strategic success. He eventually withdraws, 425 00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:59,170 Speaker 2: sickens and actually dies in York. So in some sense, 426 00:26:59,290 --> 00:27:03,570 Speaker 2: Britain also ended up defeating Severus. Now, the story of 427 00:27:03,810 --> 00:27:07,690 Speaker 2: British economic collapse of military failure on the mainland is 428 00:27:07,730 --> 00:27:12,850 Speaker 2: one that Maximus one hundred and eighty years later should 429 00:27:12,890 --> 00:27:16,330 Speaker 2: have learned, because it's a pattern that he repeats almost exactly. 430 00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:20,330 Speaker 1: He's in a similar situation. He's he's in charge of 431 00:27:20,370 --> 00:27:24,290 Speaker 1: a big army in Britain and there's an unpopular emperor 432 00:27:24,330 --> 00:27:24,970 Speaker 1: back in Rome. 433 00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:27,250 Speaker 2: Yeah. So this emperor is one of the most colorful 434 00:27:27,290 --> 00:27:29,890 Speaker 2: figures I think from Roman history, which is saying a lot. 435 00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:33,050 Speaker 2: He's the Emperor Grecian, who's a young man who has 436 00:27:33,090 --> 00:27:37,850 Speaker 2: a fascination for all things barbarian. He begins hanging out 437 00:27:37,890 --> 00:27:40,450 Speaker 2: with a group of Scythian archers. These are men from 438 00:27:40,530 --> 00:27:43,610 Speaker 2: what's now Ukraine, but at the time the Romans consider 439 00:27:43,690 --> 00:27:46,970 Speaker 2: them to be barbarians. They're like horse riding people, and 440 00:27:47,610 --> 00:27:49,810 Speaker 2: Grecian begins dressing like a Scythian in the kind of 441 00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:54,370 Speaker 2: typical pointed cap robes and so on, And this causes 442 00:27:54,410 --> 00:27:55,850 Speaker 2: a lot of muttering at court. 443 00:27:56,170 --> 00:27:58,770 Speaker 1: But if you're a Roman emperor, you can do what 444 00:27:58,810 --> 00:28:02,170 Speaker 1: you like until you can't. So what turned this from 445 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:06,090 Speaker 1: being a kind of affectation for Grascian to being something 446 00:28:06,090 --> 00:28:07,850 Speaker 1: that was a real political problem for him. 447 00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:10,850 Speaker 2: Well, it's sudden they barbarians become a bit of a 448 00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:15,730 Speaker 2: problem in the empire. The emperor Valens is famously killed 449 00:28:15,770 --> 00:28:18,530 Speaker 2: when he goes out to fighter an army of Goths. 450 00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:22,330 Speaker 1: He's the emperor of the Eastern Empire and Gracians the 451 00:28:22,330 --> 00:28:23,850 Speaker 1: emperor of the Western Empire at this point. 452 00:28:23,930 --> 00:28:26,290 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Empire has been divided at this point, but 453 00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:29,290 Speaker 2: it still acts in concert. They often fought together, etc. 454 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:31,810 Speaker 1: Okay, but one of them is killed by barbarians, which 455 00:28:31,850 --> 00:28:34,210 Speaker 1: makes it, yes, makes it weird that the other one 456 00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:36,370 Speaker 1: is dressing like a barbarian all the time. 457 00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:41,490 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. Yeah, So the gration he's toppled, and 458 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:43,730 Speaker 2: once more the Empire is up for grabs. 459 00:28:44,450 --> 00:28:48,210 Speaker 1: Enter Magnus Maximus. Here's our man. He's in Britain. He 460 00:28:48,330 --> 00:28:51,610 Speaker 1: has this enormous army and he's looking down at Rome 461 00:28:51,730 --> 00:28:53,770 Speaker 1: and he's thinking, I fancy this. 462 00:28:54,090 --> 00:28:57,770 Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah. Magnus Maximus sails for the main land 463 00:28:57,850 --> 00:29:01,770 Speaker 2: in three eighty three, and once again, just like Claudius Albinus, 464 00:29:02,130 --> 00:29:06,010 Speaker 2: he brings every man he can to engage in a 465 00:29:06,170 --> 00:29:11,970 Speaker 2: battle for the empire. Maximus is exceptionally successful. He's very popular, 466 00:29:12,130 --> 00:29:15,810 Speaker 2: he's it's clearly a charismatic character, and he wins the 467 00:29:15,810 --> 00:29:20,970 Speaker 2: battle unlike Albinus, so he actually becomes emperor, but the 468 00:29:20,970 --> 00:29:24,010 Speaker 2: moment he does, his support begins to collapse, and it 469 00:29:24,050 --> 00:29:26,330 Speaker 2: does so in part because of the anarchy that he's 470 00:29:26,370 --> 00:29:31,290 Speaker 2: left behind in Britain. He's not only taxed his provinces 471 00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:35,090 Speaker 2: brutally in order to fund this campaign, but just like Albinus, 472 00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:39,090 Speaker 2: he's left it completely undefended. Its economy once more collapses, 473 00:29:39,570 --> 00:29:44,970 Speaker 2: and Maximus is eventually left without support. He's chased out 474 00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:48,170 Speaker 2: of the throne, finally defeated in battle, and he's actually 475 00:29:48,170 --> 00:29:53,570 Speaker 2: condemned to the Roman punishment of Damnacio memory I, which 476 00:29:53,610 --> 00:29:56,090 Speaker 2: is to have all mention of you scrubbed from the records. 477 00:29:56,650 --> 00:30:00,570 Speaker 1: So that didn't go well at all. He basically brought 478 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:04,690 Speaker 1: down because he abandoned Britain and the weakened empire that 479 00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:07,650 Speaker 1: he was trying to rule could not cope with the 480 00:30:07,770 --> 00:30:12,170 Speaker 1: chaos that that decision unleashed. At what point do the 481 00:30:12,250 --> 00:30:15,210 Speaker 1: Romans just go, you know, this whole occupying Britain is 482 00:30:15,250 --> 00:30:16,010 Speaker 1: just not worth it. 483 00:30:16,490 --> 00:30:19,290 Speaker 2: The date officially given to it is four to ten AD, 484 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:23,090 Speaker 2: when the Emperor Honorius declares that Britain should look to 485 00:30:23,130 --> 00:30:27,210 Speaker 2: their own defenses. But really, I think de facto, the 486 00:30:27,250 --> 00:30:31,930 Speaker 2: completely loss of Britain is the revolt of Constantinus, who 487 00:30:32,210 --> 00:30:35,530 Speaker 2: is a common soldier who seems to rise to governor 488 00:30:35,570 --> 00:30:38,970 Speaker 2: through some kind of military coup. He's risen from the 489 00:30:39,050 --> 00:30:42,890 Speaker 2: ranks of the soldiers in Britain. He has no experience 490 00:30:42,890 --> 00:30:45,170 Speaker 2: as a governor or statesman. He seems to have been 491 00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:49,210 Speaker 2: elevated purely because his name reminded people of the great 492 00:30:49,410 --> 00:30:53,970 Speaker 2: emperor Constantine had ruled less than a century earlier. People thought, 493 00:30:54,090 --> 00:30:55,930 Speaker 2: that's a lucky name. We'll go for this guy. 494 00:30:56,850 --> 00:31:00,090 Speaker 1: That feels like a pretty thin basis for giving anybody authority. 495 00:31:00,090 --> 00:31:03,330 Speaker 2: But okay, yeah, certainly. He rebels in four oh seven 496 00:31:03,690 --> 00:31:08,250 Speaker 2: AD and makes much the same pattern as Maximus and Albinus. 497 00:31:08,410 --> 00:31:12,530 Speaker 2: He marches on Rome. He absolutely manages to force Honorius 498 00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:15,770 Speaker 2: into sharing the throne with him for a while, so 499 00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:18,530 Speaker 2: he does actually rule as co emperor this common soldier, 500 00:31:19,130 --> 00:31:23,330 Speaker 2: But soon an alliance of challengers, disgusted at this guy 501 00:31:23,970 --> 00:31:27,450 Speaker 2: forcing his way into imperial power, eventually chase him out 502 00:31:27,450 --> 00:31:30,050 Speaker 2: of the capitol. Most of the soldiers he brings with 503 00:31:30,170 --> 00:31:33,290 Speaker 2: him will never return to Britain. Essentially, I think four 504 00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:36,530 Speaker 2: oh seven is the time when Rome really has no 505 00:31:37,010 --> 00:31:41,410 Speaker 2: administrative power over Britain anymore, and After this point, the 506 00:31:41,530 --> 00:31:45,210 Speaker 2: entire Romanized economy that we talked about really begins its 507 00:31:45,290 --> 00:31:47,570 Speaker 2: terminal decline. 508 00:31:48,050 --> 00:31:50,410 Speaker 1: After the break, we are going to find out what 509 00:31:50,650 --> 00:31:56,210 Speaker 1: happened to Britain after the Romans left, why it affected 510 00:31:56,290 --> 00:32:00,970 Speaker 1: everything from British riding to the British dinner table. Stay 511 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:06,770 Speaker 1: with us, we'll be back with Paul Cooper after the break. 512 00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:15,330 Speaker 1: We're back. I'm talking to Paul Cooper about his book 513 00:32:15,370 --> 00:32:21,410 Speaker 1: and his podcast of the same name, Fall of Civilizations. So, Paul, 514 00:32:22,010 --> 00:32:25,650 Speaker 1: the Roman emperor Honorius has basically washed his hands of 515 00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:29,890 Speaker 1: written forget it, it's too much trouble. The Romans have left. 516 00:32:30,050 --> 00:32:34,130 Speaker 1: So then, was that a cause for celebration for the 517 00:32:34,210 --> 00:32:35,010 Speaker 1: native population. 518 00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:39,410 Speaker 2: Well, undoubtedly there were people who might have celebrated the 519 00:32:39,450 --> 00:32:42,810 Speaker 2: departure of Rome. But the entire Romanized economy that we 520 00:32:42,850 --> 00:32:47,650 Speaker 2: talked about earlier now began its terminal decline. Romanized cities 521 00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:54,530 Speaker 2: slowly fell into disrepair, their populations slowly left. Great monuments 522 00:32:54,530 --> 00:32:59,570 Speaker 2: like Hadrian's Wall were also abandoned. Left to overgrow. People 523 00:32:59,610 --> 00:33:02,610 Speaker 2: began to rob them of stone in order to build houses, 524 00:33:02,690 --> 00:33:06,690 Speaker 2: build walls, things like that. The Roman bath houses, which 525 00:33:06,730 --> 00:33:10,170 Speaker 2: require quite a lot of maintenance, by skilled workers. And 526 00:33:10,210 --> 00:33:13,770 Speaker 2: also the hypercourse systems that heated Roman houses from under 527 00:33:13,810 --> 00:33:17,330 Speaker 2: the floor both fell into disrepair. The baths silted up. 528 00:33:17,610 --> 00:33:20,810 Speaker 2: We get a sense of the complete falling apart of 529 00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:24,130 Speaker 2: the House of cards, that is a society. You know, 530 00:33:24,170 --> 00:33:27,730 Speaker 2: people stopped mining iron all they stopped smelting iron, they 531 00:33:27,770 --> 00:33:31,170 Speaker 2: stopped hammering it into nails, and this meant that people 532 00:33:31,690 --> 00:33:34,850 Speaker 2: now had no hobnails in their shoes, and people began 533 00:33:34,890 --> 00:33:37,890 Speaker 2: to scavenge in the Romanized cities for things like nails 534 00:33:37,930 --> 00:33:38,650 Speaker 2: that were left. 535 00:33:38,410 --> 00:33:41,850 Speaker 1: Behind and horseshoes. They lost the ability to make horseshoes, 536 00:33:42,130 --> 00:33:44,770 Speaker 1: or at least to you know, they became too expensive. 537 00:33:44,890 --> 00:33:47,090 Speaker 2: Yeah, and no horseshoes means you don't want to ride 538 00:33:47,090 --> 00:33:50,370 Speaker 2: your horse on the stone roads that the Romans had built. 539 00:33:50,490 --> 00:33:54,090 Speaker 2: So the roads slowly begin to overgrow as well. People 540 00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:58,410 Speaker 2: go back to using paths and tracks. So people stopped 541 00:33:58,450 --> 00:34:01,410 Speaker 2: making the large pots that you would use to cook 542 00:34:01,450 --> 00:34:04,210 Speaker 2: a stew, which meant that people began eating roasted meat 543 00:34:04,290 --> 00:34:08,050 Speaker 2: rather than stews. The Romanized kitchen gardens that had grown 544 00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:11,210 Speaker 2: things like parsley and coriander were no longer around, and 545 00:34:11,250 --> 00:34:13,930 Speaker 2: these crops disappeared from the British. 546 00:34:13,530 --> 00:34:15,210 Speaker 1: Diet, no more olive oil. 547 00:34:15,410 --> 00:34:19,050 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, for a while, in romanized cities 548 00:34:19,090 --> 00:34:22,530 Speaker 2: like London, you get a kind of enclave of Romanized 549 00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:25,330 Speaker 2: citizens still almost going through the motions of living this 550 00:34:25,410 --> 00:34:30,010 Speaker 2: Romanized life, but around them the city is depopulating. We 551 00:34:30,050 --> 00:34:33,210 Speaker 2: get a fascinating layer of something called dark earth appearing 552 00:34:33,250 --> 00:34:37,890 Speaker 2: in the archaeological record, which historians believe is the remains 553 00:34:38,050 --> 00:34:41,490 Speaker 2: of kind of like wasteland sites where previously that there'd 554 00:34:41,530 --> 00:34:44,850 Speaker 2: been a building. Once the roof falls in, the walls collapse, 555 00:34:45,570 --> 00:34:48,770 Speaker 2: brambles and ivy and elder and some take roots in 556 00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:52,090 Speaker 2: those sites, leaving a layer of mulch which becomes that 557 00:34:52,610 --> 00:34:55,410 Speaker 2: dark earth. So it shows that parts of the previously 558 00:34:55,970 --> 00:35:00,690 Speaker 2: densely populated city were becoming overgrown, full of vegetation. It 559 00:35:00,770 --> 00:35:03,410 Speaker 2: must have been quite an eerie site to walk through 560 00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:06,450 Speaker 2: the streets of somewhere like London or Colchester and see, 561 00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:08,330 Speaker 2: you know that it was becoming a ghost town. 562 00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:11,690 Speaker 1: Real post apocalyptic vibes. 563 00:35:12,010 --> 00:35:12,250 Speaker 2: Yeah. 564 00:35:12,330 --> 00:35:15,410 Speaker 1: So, taking a step back from Rome and Britain and 565 00:35:15,930 --> 00:35:19,290 Speaker 1: taking on board the sweep of your podcast in your book, 566 00:35:19,570 --> 00:35:23,850 Speaker 1: all of these different civilizations that have risen and fallen 567 00:35:24,530 --> 00:35:27,810 Speaker 1: in human history. Were they also looking back at the 568 00:35:27,810 --> 00:35:32,170 Speaker 1: civilizations before them and discussing their own caution detales. Were 569 00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:34,290 Speaker 1: they learning from the mistakes of their history. 570 00:35:34,530 --> 00:35:37,730 Speaker 2: I think learning from mistakes would be taking it too far. 571 00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:40,050 Speaker 2: You know, the people of the past didn't have a 572 00:35:40,450 --> 00:35:43,130 Speaker 2: sense of history as we do, as a body of 573 00:35:43,210 --> 00:35:47,170 Speaker 2: knowledge that can be debated and analyzed. They viewed history 574 00:35:47,170 --> 00:35:50,890 Speaker 2: as the exploits of great men and great stories, societies 575 00:35:50,930 --> 00:35:54,970 Speaker 2: contending for victory in great contests. But that isn't to 576 00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:58,170 Speaker 2: say they didn't have an awareness of the societies that 577 00:35:58,210 --> 00:36:02,810 Speaker 2: had passed before. One example is the Sumerians and Assyrians 578 00:36:02,850 --> 00:36:04,570 Speaker 2: and all these people who lived in the plains of 579 00:36:04,610 --> 00:36:09,450 Speaker 2: Mesopotamia who looked around them and saw the r of 580 00:36:09,490 --> 00:36:14,290 Speaker 2: even more ancient civilizations crumbling around them. You know that 581 00:36:14,330 --> 00:36:16,410 Speaker 2: part of the world has been occupied for at least 582 00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:20,290 Speaker 2: ten thousand years with some kind of city building societies, 583 00:36:20,490 --> 00:36:23,010 Speaker 2: and they came up with stories like the Great Flood, 584 00:36:23,090 --> 00:36:26,570 Speaker 2: which you know survives in the Bible in Genesis, and 585 00:36:26,650 --> 00:36:29,690 Speaker 2: to explain how these societies had been destroyed, you know, 586 00:36:29,730 --> 00:36:32,610 Speaker 2: for their pride, stories like the Tower of Bible, which 587 00:36:32,650 --> 00:36:34,890 Speaker 2: is probably written in response to the site of the 588 00:36:34,970 --> 00:36:37,690 Speaker 2: ruin of the Zigarat of or all of these are 589 00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:40,730 Speaker 2: ways that people have responded to the ruins of the past. 590 00:36:41,690 --> 00:36:45,530 Speaker 2: And you know, things like Homer's Iliad, which is the 591 00:36:45,570 --> 00:36:48,090 Speaker 2: story really of a war that probably did take place 592 00:36:48,130 --> 00:36:52,330 Speaker 2: in some way, a clash between the Mysonee and Greeks 593 00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:56,450 Speaker 2: in the Late Bronze Age with the Trojans, who are 594 00:36:56,530 --> 00:37:00,290 Speaker 2: kind of a peripheral subject of the Hittite Empire. And 595 00:37:00,330 --> 00:37:02,090 Speaker 2: there seems to have been some kind of war in 596 00:37:02,130 --> 00:37:05,410 Speaker 2: which the city of Troy was burned. But there's a 597 00:37:05,450 --> 00:37:08,330 Speaker 2: period that follows it called the Bronze Age Collapse, the 598 00:37:08,370 --> 00:37:13,010 Speaker 2: Late BRONZEI collapse, that is then that sees the collapse 599 00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:16,850 Speaker 2: near simultaneously of multiple powerful civilizations around the Near East. 600 00:37:17,650 --> 00:37:20,370 Speaker 2: And it is followed by a period called the Greek 601 00:37:20,450 --> 00:37:23,770 Speaker 2: Dark Ages, which is contested term but basically means that 602 00:37:23,770 --> 00:37:26,090 Speaker 2: there's no written sources about this period of history. And 603 00:37:26,330 --> 00:37:30,810 Speaker 2: this story is kind of repeated again and again by poets, singers, 604 00:37:30,890 --> 00:37:33,010 Speaker 2: you know, passed on by word of mouth, and it's 605 00:37:33,050 --> 00:37:37,930 Speaker 2: elevated the level of this apocalyptic clash between civilizations full 606 00:37:37,970 --> 00:37:41,170 Speaker 2: of great heroes and marvelous duels of single combat and 607 00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:43,730 Speaker 2: so on that we know today, and it's when the 608 00:37:43,850 --> 00:37:49,770 Speaker 2: Roman general Scipio Amilianus, many centuries later, is looking at 609 00:37:49,850 --> 00:37:54,250 Speaker 2: the besieged city of Carthage as his own Roman forces 610 00:37:54,730 --> 00:37:58,690 Speaker 2: sweep into it, burning it and sacking it. Scipio is 611 00:37:58,690 --> 00:38:01,770 Speaker 2: said to quote a line from the Iliad about how 612 00:38:02,450 --> 00:38:05,730 Speaker 2: he fears that one day Troy will be destroyed, to 613 00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:09,490 Speaker 2: have shed a tear and begun weeping because he has 614 00:38:09,530 --> 00:38:13,490 Speaker 2: this moment of historical realization that his great city of 615 00:38:13,570 --> 00:38:17,730 Speaker 2: Rome will one day face the same fate. That history 616 00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:24,330 Speaker 2: is this cyclical series of patterns, and indeed, five centuries later, 617 00:38:24,570 --> 00:38:28,050 Speaker 2: Rome is sacked during its own catastrophic decline. 618 00:38:29,090 --> 00:38:32,650 Speaker 1: Paul, you've studied the rise and fall of so many 619 00:38:32,730 --> 00:38:36,850 Speaker 1: different civilizations. Is there a single lesson that you think 620 00:38:36,850 --> 00:38:38,010 Speaker 1: it's important that we learn. 621 00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:41,330 Speaker 2: I think when I started this series, I believed that 622 00:38:41,410 --> 00:38:44,330 Speaker 2: I would come away with advice, a list of things 623 00:38:44,370 --> 00:38:46,730 Speaker 2: not to do. If you don't want your civilization to collapse, 624 00:38:46,850 --> 00:38:49,210 Speaker 2: here's how to prevent it. But I think as time's 625 00:38:49,210 --> 00:38:52,130 Speaker 2: gone on, I've become something of a cynic about the 626 00:38:52,170 --> 00:38:55,810 Speaker 2: human ability ever to learn from history. Like Albinus and 627 00:38:55,890 --> 00:39:00,450 Speaker 2: Maximus and Constantinus, we seem to always pass again and 628 00:39:00,490 --> 00:39:05,810 Speaker 2: again through the same patterns, the same mistakes, tyrannies and dictatorships, 629 00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:11,090 Speaker 2: economic collapse, environmental degradation. I think the lesson I'd really 630 00:39:11,130 --> 00:39:13,490 Speaker 2: like people to take from this is that if you 631 00:39:13,570 --> 00:39:18,210 Speaker 2: ever feel despair, if you ever feel alone with that feeling, 632 00:39:18,570 --> 00:39:22,090 Speaker 2: actually that feeling is extremely ancient. People have been feeling 633 00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:24,530 Speaker 2: that since the dawn of time, and that it's one 634 00:39:24,570 --> 00:39:28,610 Speaker 2: of the most fundamental human feelings. Perhaps at the end 635 00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:32,330 Speaker 2: of the day, societies collapse and they are replaced by 636 00:39:33,090 --> 00:39:36,010 Speaker 2: a more sustainable one. A society that's unable to survive 637 00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:40,010 Speaker 2: ends up being replaced by one that can. And wherever 638 00:39:40,050 --> 00:39:42,170 Speaker 2: we see collapse, we also see the green shoots of 639 00:39:42,210 --> 00:39:46,250 Speaker 2: recovery coming through the ash, like the new growth after 640 00:39:46,290 --> 00:39:49,890 Speaker 2: a forest fire. So at the end of the day, 641 00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:54,370 Speaker 2: it's about building connections with people around you that will 642 00:39:54,410 --> 00:40:00,530 Speaker 2: survive times of upheaval, times of degradation, and even poverty. 643 00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:04,490 Speaker 2: It's about building things in your life that will survive history. 644 00:40:05,370 --> 00:40:09,010 Speaker 1: I've been talking to Paul Cooper. Paul's book and podcast 645 00:40:09,330 --> 00:40:14,290 Speaker 1: are The Fall of Civilizations. Paul, thank you so much 646 00:40:14,330 --> 00:40:15,770 Speaker 1: for joining us on Cautionary Tales. 647 00:40:15,970 --> 00:40:18,210 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks so much for having me on for your 648 00:40:18,210 --> 00:40:20,530 Speaker 2: thoughtful questions. It's been great to be here. 649 00:40:26,810 --> 00:40:30,610 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is presented by me Tim Harford. It's produced 650 00:40:30,610 --> 00:40:34,170 Speaker 1: by Georgia Mills and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and 651 00:40:34,210 --> 00:40:38,170 Speaker 1: original music are the work of Pascal Wise. The show 652 00:40:38,290 --> 00:40:41,730 Speaker 1: also wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, 653 00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:46,690 Speaker 1: Greta Cohne, Corn Gilliard, Fisher Bender, daf Haffree, Eric Sandler, 654 00:40:46,890 --> 00:40:52,090 Speaker 1: Christina Sullivan, Kira Posey, and Owen Miller. Cautionary Tales is 655 00:40:52,130 --> 00:40:55,610 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, 656 00:40:55,930 --> 00:41:00,090 Speaker 1: please remember to share, great and review. 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