WEBVTT - Building Decentralized Finance 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.360 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.520 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.800 this started. Hello and welcome to another episode of the 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.880 Market Disruptors Podcast. Today I am sitting down with Ryan 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.560 Sean Adams. He's the founder of Methos Capital. He's one 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.480 of the outspoken proponents of Ethereum on Twitter. He likes 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.800 to really put ethereum content right out to the bitcoiners 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.200 and really kind of stir the pop. I get into 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:47.320 why he likes to do that, what he really thinks 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.239 about bitcoin versus ethereum, if he really think there's only 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:52.880 gonna be one. We talk about the differences of ethereum, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.120 what he sees being the future, and then we get 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.800 into some defise stuff. What's happening there um with a 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.960 different protocol is some really good conversation. Um learned a 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.240 lot and let's just go ahead and just jump right 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:05.640 into it. Hello and welcome to another episode of the 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.319 Market Disruptors podcast. Today I am with Ryan Shawn Adams. 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.720 He's the founder of Mythos Capital, and he is one 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.280 of the outspoken proponents of ethereum on Twitter and out 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:18.240 in the industry, and he has a lot of good 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:20.040 things to say, so I want to I'm excited to 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.320 talk to him today. Welcome Ryan, Yeah, hey Mark, great 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.319 to be here. Thanks alright, great, So, UM, let's go 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:29.080 ahead and just set the stage. And so for those 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:30.600 that don't know who you are, why don't you just 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.319 tell us a little bit about kind of what you 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:35.679 were doing before and and kind of what you're doing 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.480 right now in the space. Yeah. So, UM, you know, 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:45.400 tech entrepreneur by background and trading within the medical um 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.040 software field for a while. UM sold the company back 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:54.880 in party acquisition there and UM when we started getting 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.520 into krypton, and that was really when I, you know, 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.040 did the first leg down the rabbit hole, if you 0:02:02.200 --> 0:02:05.760 if you will, and discovered bitcoin. UM. A little bit later, 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.680 I sort of realized that, you know, there are more 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.359 applications that were possible use blockchain systems, public blockchain systems, 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.880 you know, general programmable value transfer and kind of fell 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:21.040 in love with ethereum and decided to start with US 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:24.080 in seventeen, so with US as a as a capital 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:29.880 pool UM, and we also provide staking services to crypto networks. 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:34.839 And I guess I'm just a general commentator and writer 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.040 around this space a little bit. UM. Recently, my passion 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:42.079 has been around the topic of of ethereum uh and 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:48.680 specifically how eth is a monetary asset that um, you know, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:54.400 deserves a monetary premium and UM topics around that, you know, 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.320 short form like eat his money and UM. You know 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:00.519 I love you know, mixing it up on Twitter and 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:06.400 controlling bitcoiners. Yes, you do. You do seem to like 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.600 to uh stir the pot a little bit, which is good. 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.600 Kind of makes it interesting for sure. UM. So, yeah, 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.720 you recently wrote a piece titled Ethereum is Money and 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.640 why it matters and uh really going straight at the 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.320 bitcoin maximalist on that because obviously you know, the bitcoin 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.720 is money, um and and so I don't know if 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.080 that's what you meant with with with the piece titling 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.800 at that, but you really went into why ethereum is 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.640 money and UM kind of broke down the triple assets, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.680 you know, different ways it's looked at UM s O 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.400 V versus medium exchanges, et cetera. So why don't we 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:41.840 just jump into that a little bit. I guess first 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:43.360 of all, why did you choose that title? Was that 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:46.320 just to kind of go after bitcoin? You know, it's 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:50.240 not so much going after bitcoin, right, So first of all, 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:54.120 I'm actually people want people that do this. I'm actually 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.360 like a bitcoin bull. Um. Yeah, you know I am. 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.440 I'm really excited about Bitcoin originally got me into the 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:05.200 crypto space. UM. I do think that bitcoin falls short 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.960 in some areas and if your name kind of picks 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.760 off in some areas where Bitcoin left off. But the 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.400 reason I say like eth is money as uh, you 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:18.160 know the title is that it's it's it's provocative, um, 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.440 and it really it really shouldn't be. I mean, um, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.680 people in in and before that who said things like 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.599 bitcoin is money. I mean that was provocative at the time. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.720 The reality about money, whether it's fiat money or crypto 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.039 based money, is that, uh, money is is a meme. UM. 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:43.159 In some ways, it's it's kind of like a religion. Um. 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.960 There's an underlying belief system that it has value and 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.840 can store value into the future, and that begets more 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.600 belief in it and the network affects, spreads and essentially 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:59.039 like you can mean money into existence. So when I 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.520 say things like if money, it's just sort of to 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.479 you know, poke at that idea a little bit. Um, 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.080 anything can be a money if people believe it's the 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:11.520 money and use it as a money. And it certainly 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.680 fits that criteria right now. Um, And I really I 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:18.919 think of it as kind of a triple point asset. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:21.800 We can get into that. One of the likes in 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:27.279 the you know, the three point stool um is being 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:30.719 used as a money, being used as a story value asset, 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:35.960 as collateral backing in the open finance world, as collateral 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:41.679 backing for currencies like die for instance, which are also 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.480 used as a as a medium of exchange and unit 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.040 of accounts. So um eth is certainly money. We can 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.000 get into that a little bit more from that perspective. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:54.000 First is the story value, but then through currencies like 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.480 die when it serves as a as a synthetic backing 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:00.560 as a medium of exchange, unit of account um in 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.159 the future. I think that with that, I mean it's like, um, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:09.000 it certainly is being used as that today. Um. Right, 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.240 it is certainly being used as a store of value 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:13.080 today where we can see what's locked up, and we 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.039 can certainly see that it is being used as a 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.720 money today. Um. And I think, like you said, like 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.840 anything can be a money, but does that necessarily mean 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:23.680 it's a good money or the best money or best 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.520 store of value? Right? So, um, is that something where 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.680 you see it like maybe like evolving into that or 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:33.720 you think it already is good. I think I think 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.760 it partially is, and it's partially evolving into it in 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.400 the same way that bitcoin partially is a good story 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.880 value today and is evolving into a better story value 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:45.440 in the future, I mean store of value. It's really 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.920 like it's um, it's kind of like a coordination game, right, 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.360 Like you want to store your wealth in the asset 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.400 that all of the other human beings store their wealth in, 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.719 and ideally you want to be a little bit ahead 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.560 of that. Uh. That way you can kind of you know, 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.200 get the the appreciation of the asset and get the 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.880 upside of the story value asset. So the coordination game 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.440 is trying to predict which which asset will become a 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.400 story value. And bitcoin has kind of mean this idea 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.720 of um, you know, scarcity and a sound money and 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:22.520 hard money being the primary value proposition of a story 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.000 value UM and like, I agree with those things too. UM, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.880 It's just that EVE also has those properties as well. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.840 It is a sound money, it is a hard money. 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:39.480 It does have a scarcity enforced by social contract um. 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.720 It just doesn't have a meme around twenty one million 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.000 will only be produced. But if you actually look into 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.160 the monetary policy of Eve, you sort of like start 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.320 to uh see an asset um that has low issuance, 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.320 you know, approaching one percent over time, that has a 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.960 sustainable security um ust year in terms of its stability 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:07.480 to pay for network security via new coin issuance. Uh, 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.440 and it has the same scarcity that's enforced by social 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:15.160 contractors bigcoins. So even from just a scarcity meme perspective, UM, like, 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:19.960 the fundamentals are there, it's just the like, the idea 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.320 and the meme and the propagation of that meme is 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.280 not fully there in the way that that it is 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:28.160 with bitcoin. But I think when people start to understand 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:30.840 these assets more we're just at the very early stages 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:35.600 of the general public barely understanding these assets, it will 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.280 become more and more obvious that the monetary policy behind 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:44.360 ethereum issuance is uh, just as good, maybe in some 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:48.760 ways better or at least makes different tradeoffs than the 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.120 bitcoin monetary policy. Yeah, the tradeoffs that you speak of, 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.839 I'm guessing more are are back to like the inflation 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.480 and then enforcing the security, which, um some of that 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:01.920 will will be said to be seen right in the future. 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.800 But I think the problem, I guess is you're saying, like, 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.280 the inflation rate is low today, but we just don't 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:10.880 know what it will be in the future. I guess 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.959 that's the main argument that bitcoin bowls would say, right 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:17.640 that you're building on something that's unknown because we know 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.560 it's going to change in the future, but we don't 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:23.079 know what it's going to change too. Yeah, and this 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.280 is this is kind of you know what I would 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:27.520 would what I would respond to you, I guess a 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:31.079 couple of things. So, so first, when you look at bitcoin, 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.720 it's somewhat in a similar boat. So what bitcoin has 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:39.280 done very clever cleverly is they've fixed issuance, and so 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.240 they have Bitcoin has a security, um like, it has 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.439 a happening and issuance happening. Every four years or so. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:52.040 Issuance is decreased along kind of a curve approaching zero UM, 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.319 so that you know, the network specifies only twenty one 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.000 million bitcoin will ever be produced. You can also think 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:03.400 of that secure party having as or that that issuance 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:07.320 having is also a security having. So like UM, the 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.360 the amount of bitcoin that goes to pay for network 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.040 securities cut in half every four years. So there's some 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.080 real question as to whether that sort of an issuance 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:21.560 policy is UH is sustainable at some state and we're 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:23.680 talking in the next you know, ten years or so, 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.559 UM like bitcoin will have to sustain itself just by 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:33.400 transaction fees. So like the question in my mind is um, 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.640 you know, is it actually possible to have fixed issuance 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.680 twenty one million or or Bitcoin have to make a 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.800 really hard choice in the future to actually increase its 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:47.000 issuance and fork the network. Will that be sort of 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.320 a very divisive topic sometime in the next you know, 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:54.720 ten years, in the next twenty years, whereas ethereum UM 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.680 you know, responds with a more flexible issuance policy into 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.959 the future. UM and the monetary policy of Etherium is 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:07.720 pretty simple. It's minimum necessary issuance to secure the network. 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:13.960 So like like security essentially is guaranteed by that issue 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.400 at schedule, and Etherium won't won't have to deal with 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.480 the thorny issue off like, well, we have two hard 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.240 work to maintain security. So in some ways, I guess 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:26.800 in summary, I think that the meme around twenty one 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:31.640 million that that bitcoin has may not actually like in 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.840 fact come to pass. That there may be a reason 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.439 in a requirement to actually increase issuance in order to 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.440 properly secure the bitcoin network, and it might cause FOC 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.760 at some point in the future to frame that out 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:45.440 just a little bit more for everyone, if they're not 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:49.280 totally caught up, is that UM currently bitcoin is secured 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:53.400 by mining, and they are earning their their payment or 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.840 their rewards through mining new bitcoin, but as well as 0:11:55.840 --> 0:12:00.480 doing transactions, and eventually UM the mining rewards run out, 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:02.640 and the only way to secure the network would be 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:07.240 through transaction fees. UM a risk would be that let's 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:10.760 say that everybody just hotels their bitcoin and doesn't transact it, 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.080 then there's no transaction fees, and then the transaction fees 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:15.800 aren't enough and the miners give up, and then there's 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.679 no security for the network. That's the potential risk that 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.440 that is going to play out, and We'll have to 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:24.719 see what happens. UM. Most people think that there will 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.800 be enough transaction activity to continue to pay the miners UM, 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:32.080 but it may not, And so that's that's the potential risk, 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:37.480 right UM. I also see like a middle ground their 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:42.800 team mark where it's it's you know, UM, there will 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.880 be some security, and there will be like a lot 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:50.320 of security paid by transaction fees. But but it could 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.080 come to pass that Bitcoin is no longer the most 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:58.320 secure network, right UM, as you know, compared to other 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:03.600 networks in the future. So UM, like I probably think 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:08.320 it's unlikely that bitcoin security like drops to zero uh 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.800 and it becomes useless, But but it could vary. UM 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.760 feasibly come to pass that that Bitcoin is no longer 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.480 the most secure network, and that opens a slot for 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.520 another network that has a different issuance policy, maybe even 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.760 a different consensus system um to uh to jump to 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.080 first place, right, And so we don't know what the 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.000 future holds, and so that could end up being bad 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:35.960 for Bitcoin. It possibly and and with a more flexible 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.320 monetary policy like Ethereum has, it could end up being 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.760 right where it needs to be. Bitcoin could change is 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.520 monetary policy. So there's a lot to be said about 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.000 the future that we don't know. It just seems that 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:51.040 the if we look through history, like the best store 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.400 of value always wins. I think you're kind of saying 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.240 that before. We've seen this playout with governments in the past, 0:13:56.280 --> 0:13:58.720 where some thought silver was going to be the best 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.880 store value but they end losing the most of their 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.240 wealth because gold became the best store value. And um, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.480 where you start to store your value right now, seems 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:10.360 like having the best monetary policy today would win. But 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.480 I guess we'll have to see how that plays out. Yeah, 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.880 And I guess the point is, you know what actually 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:21.080 is the best monetary policy, right UM, maybe we don't 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:25.720 know yet. UM Gold for instance, has been a fantastic 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:29.000 story value throughout history, and it has an issuance and 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:34.040 annual inflation of like one point five to two percent ish. UM. 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.960 You know ethereum UH is projected to have a one 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:42.720 percent ish inflation rate as well. UH. And then of course, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:45.560 you know, the issuance is always going to be enough 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.960 to secure the network. Maybe that's the winning the winning ticket. 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.040 I think the point is we're all it's so early, 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.720 like we're in the first standing of this and so 0:14:56.120 --> 0:15:00.400 you know, at some level, betting on crypto is betting 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.280 on which of these assets become the best store of value. 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:05.480 And so it's really hard to kind of project into 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.320 the future. We just s don't know. So I always 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:11.480 encourage like a probabilistic bet on these things, uh, and 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:17.440 discourage maximalism of one form or another, including bitcoin maximalism. Yeah. 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.280 So today we have, you know, the dollars the reserve 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.720 currency of the world, the financial system. Really, the world 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.120 financial system is built in the US, majority of it, 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.760 and it's built on the dollar. Um. But the dollar 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.600 is also is a medium of exchange, right, but it's 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:34.440 also a very poor store of value, which is why 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.040 we see ascid inflation in stocks and real estate and 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:40.520 all these other things. UM, I mean, is it possible 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.320 do you think it's possible that maybe um the theory 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.440 M and bitcoin maybe have purposes of their own where 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.440 one could be a better store value and one could 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.760 be a better financial system or something. Yeah, totally. And 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.080 if I were to predict these things, I would probably 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.360 at this point i'd probably say that that's a that's 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:03.080 a very likely outcome. UM. I don't think that that, Um, 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:07.600 you know, bitcoin kills ethereum or ethereum kills bitcoin. I 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.560 think what what will happen is both of these networks 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.880 will coexist. UM. They will be competitive, as all assets 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.960 are or store value in monetary premium use cases. Of course, 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:22.760 you know, gold competes with stock, competes with real estate 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:30.200 for where individuals and large institutions decided to store their wealth. Um, 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.800 but they will have different trade offs. UM. I could 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:35.880 very well see a world where there's a you know, 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.000 a proof of work you know, winner from from the 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.680 story value of category. And you know, maybe that's that 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:45.080 looks like bitcoin uh and and possibly a proof of 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:49.800 stake category winner uh. And maybe that looks like ethereum uh. 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.600 And that these assets are held on the balance sheets 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:58.920 of funds and major institutions and even central banks at 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.760 some stage. So it's really about the growth of the 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.679 asset class, like the non sovereign store value asset class 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:10.160 here uh. And that that's what I'm sort of rejecting 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.359 when I say things like this money is that like, um, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.080 there seems to be at least this year um this 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.160 bad that bitcoin will be the only winner in that category. 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:25.200 And I just don't think that's true. In the money category. Yeah, 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.000 in the money category and in the non sovereign store 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:35.159 value category. M hm okay, so um again, so we 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.000 know it. It is already being used as a store value. 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:39.639 I mean, at least I guess you could argue that. 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.200 I mean, I don't think that's probably the primary use 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:45.400 case of most people. I mean, we're starting to see 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.000 all the financial system start to pick up bitcoin. We 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.239 don't really see him picking up ethereum. However, we do 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:54.000 see what half a billion dollars locked up in DeFi 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.240 use cases, right, So I guess that's somewhat of a 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:58.879 store value. Is that kind of how you see it? Yeah? 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.800 I see it as Right now, bitcoin is leading the way, 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.240 um with what I would call crypto banks and kind 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.639 of So if you think of like you know, a 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.479 financial system. At the at the base layer, you have 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:16.640 some sort of a money, right, a base monetary um 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.520 system that kind of everything settles into, and then a 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:23.000 layer above you have a banking system. And you know, 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.119 the money in the banking system are very tied together, 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.399 so like you know, central banks and commercial banks and 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:33.719 institutional banks very very closely tied together. It's all part 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.879 of the same system. So Bitcoin as a base money. 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:42.760 Their banking layer are these crypto banks. So crypto banks 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:45.600 being you know, the bit mixes and the binances and 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.480 the coin basis of the world. And in the crypto 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:55.160 banks right now, bitcoin um is the primary asset, so 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.879 you know, it has the most liquidity, the most trading 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:01.720 pairs UM even in uh like crypto bank, it's like 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.040 like block fi, there's more lending going on on bitcoin 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.119 um than versus other assets. So it's kind of you 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.720 know winning right now in that crypto uh you know, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.760 centralized banking layer. Um Ethereum, on the other hand, is 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:23.800 really pioneering an open banking layer with these decentralized finance protocols. 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:29.840 So ethere in essentially represents a kind of a another 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.440 vision of the world where the story value asset is 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.159 is E. And on top of that asset there are 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:41.840 these crypto protocols like um compound and like maker and 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.920 like um d y d X and like set UH 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:51.120 and within these these banking protocols is really the primary 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.480 reserve asset. The interesting thing I think about it is 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.440 that it can also make use of all of the 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:01.920 kind of the crypto bank layer that that bitcoin makes 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.480 use of as well, So it is behind Bitcoin is 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:09.600 you know, the second highest liquidity trading pair uh, and 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:13.080 on on the encrypto banks like Block five for instance, 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.640 it's you know, the second asset to get listed. So 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:21.560 I think um EF has kind of two avenues uh 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:26.159 to create liquidity and to kind of become a money in. 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.720 One is the crypto banking side, where it's kind of 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:32.240 second to bitcoin, uh, and the other is in this 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.600 open finance defied layer where it's kind of first place 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:39.200 and kind of king right now. Yeah, some of that 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.159 stuff you talk about with bitcoin UM, I mean you 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.479 talked about kind of coin based and whatnot. I mean 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.040 those are more like on ramps and off ramps, And 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:49.040 I mean the theoryum is still subject to the same 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:53.320 requirements of on ramps and off rams. Wouldn't you say? Yeah? 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:55.840 I would? And I so I think of these exchanges 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.800 as certainly they're on ramps and on off ramps for 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.920 yacht UM, but they're also more than that. They're also 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:07.439 becoming essentially a banking layer. So as more and more wealth, 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:11.000 let's say, is uploaded into crypto and like zooming out, 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.680 I think that's the that's the long term trend here 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.919 is that we're going to move more and more of 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:23.840 the world's wealth into crypto. Right now, we're at you know, um, 0:21:24.000 --> 0:21:27.040 hundreds of billions of dollars. Just a few years ago 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.280 we were at tens of billions of dollars. I think 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.800 in a few more years will be at trillions of dollars. Uh, 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.359 and the wealth is going to essentially be be uploaded 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.800 into crypto. But these these crypto banks that the coin 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.560 bases and the bit mixes of the world will serve 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.520 us a um like a Fiat on ramp certainly, but 0:21:45.520 --> 0:21:51.520 they'll also provide lending services, will provide borrowing services. UH, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.280 they'll provide um, you know, the ability to too long 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.800 and short assets. Basically everything that you'll be able to 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.040 do with with a traditional bank, you'll be able to 0:22:01.080 --> 0:22:05.000 do with these crypto banks. Um And, like Bitcoin is 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:10.240 really essentially using uh, these centralized crypto banks as it's 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:14.200 as its primary banking layer. Ethereum is using those banks 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:18.760 as well. But it also because it has a program 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:23.639 uh programmability aspect, it's it's also creating new kinds of banks. 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:27.919 These are protocol based banks that are decentralized that are 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:33.800 inherently like programmable and composable and interoperable. Uh, so that 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.600 you can change these things together and you know, create 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:41.520 really interesting financial products and economies. Um. And I think 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.800 that is that is a massive area of innovation. Uh. 0:22:45.840 --> 0:22:50.360 And that is like um um, more interesting in some 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:55.280 ways than just the bitcoin plus crypto banks vision of 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.320 the world. Yeah, I'm I definitely think that's interesting. I 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:01.800 want to jump into a little bit I would say though, 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.520 before we jump into the full full scale, is that 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:07.880 I think that part of the reason why the financial 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.800 system is taken off so much because without having a 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:18.880 hard sound money that stores value, we've been forced We've 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.560 been forced to become investors. It's kind of built this 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:25.400 whole financial system that's forcing us to be investors as 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:27.800 opposed to just being able to store money and be specialized. 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:29.680 Like if I could be a brain surgeon, the best 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:31.320 brain surgeon in the world, parked my money and it 0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.359 just and it stores the value. Um, then that I 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.160 don't have to become this investor. But because I can't 0:23:37.160 --> 0:23:39.320 store my value and money, it forces to be become 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:42.600 an investor. So maybe if we had and these these 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.520 are all big maybes, but maybe if we did have 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:47.720