1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Hey, girlfriends, it's Anna here. Just wanted to let you 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: know that this bonus episode is going to include some 3 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: pretty difficult stuff mentions of child abuse, sexual assault, and 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:15,239 Speaker 1: an instance of very graphic violence. There'll be some swearing too, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: but you'll also get to hear the full story of 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: a woman you first met back in episode seven, Tina. 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: She introduced Kelly Harnett to her lawyer, Kate Mogolescu. 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: From the time I walk up in Rikers and looked 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: at my environment, I will see as on myself. 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: How did I get Tina, which is not her real name, 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: has just woken up in Riker's Island jail a few 12 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: nights earlier, on January thirtieth, twenty sixteen, she violently attacked 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: her boyfriend. 14 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: How did I allow myself to get to this point 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: in my life? 16 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 3: How did I get to that point? 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: There are caused debt, must damage to another human being, 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 2: and from their thought, I went throughout my whole encorag 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 2: of reach and wanting to know, wanting to understand. 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 3: How did this happen? 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,040 Speaker 1: You see, Tina isn't like Kelly, who has always maintained 22 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: her innocence. Tina fully accepts that she committed a crime. 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: She puts her hands up to her She did something awful, 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: but what kind of punishment fits a crime like hers? 25 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: I'm Anison Field and from the teams at Novel and 26 00:01:51,000 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts, This is the Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is Bonus 27 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: Episode two Tina's Story. 28 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: Tina's story starts with her mom. I have no fond 29 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 2: memories of my mother, but I love her with all. 30 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 2: Here we go, Oh, hold on, that's all right. 31 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: Tina was born in nineteen seventy four, but it isn't 32 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: the start in life that any child deserves. 33 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 3: I did not grow up in a happy home at all. 34 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 1: Tina says her mum was both neglectful and violent, and 35 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 1: that abuse pete when Tina was still just a baby. 36 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: My mother's set me in a tober hot boil and water, 37 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 2: and both of my feet were burned. 38 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: Tina is left with scars on her feet. She's quickly 39 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: removed from the family home and put into foster care, 40 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: which begins a year's long cycle of being bounced between 41 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: childcare services and then back to her parents. Each time 42 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: she gets sent home to give it another go, another 43 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: instance of abuse or neglect happens Tina feels much safer 44 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: when her dad is around, which he isn't often. He's 45 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: able to come between her and her mother's violent outbursts. 46 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 1: Tina trusts him, but then the final time Tina moves 47 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: back into her parents' home, she says that one thread 48 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: of trust is broken. I can't tell you exactly what happened, 49 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: but it's the worst thing a parent could do to 50 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a child. 51 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 3: So when this situation did happen, I think it broke me. 52 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: Throughout the rest of my teenage years, I was just 53 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: all over the place, drinking, having sex with this person 54 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: in that person, in smoking cigarettes, not abiding by curfew. 55 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: By then, I was so self destructive. 56 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: At fourteen years old, Tina finds herself living with a 57 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: foster family and pregnant. She gives birth to her son 58 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: at just fifteen, and then has her daughter at seventeen. 59 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 3: I didn't even know nothing about being a mother. 60 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: Of course, I know, you give the baby a bottle, 61 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: you change this pamper, but to actually be motherly, I 62 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: had no idea whatsoever, and eventually took them from me 63 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 2: because of me not. 64 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: Being a good mother. I don't even know how to 65 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: see there, but the sea it. 66 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: Flash forward a few difficult years, and Tina's now twenty 67 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: years old. She's back on her feet, living in an 68 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: apartment in Newark, New Jersey. She's got her life back 69 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: enough on track that finally her kids have come back 70 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: to live with her. And it's not just her kids. 71 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: She's also recently gained custody of two of her younger siblings. 72 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: But while the state made sure her apartment was big 73 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: enough for all five of them, she didn't get any 74 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: extra child support money for her siblings. As a single 75 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: income household of five, they're barely able to survive. One day. 76 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: Outside the YFCA where she works, Tina gets chatting to 77 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: a young guy selling drugs in the neighborhood. 78 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 2: He said, well, I can show you how you could 79 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: sell no coke and that aid the money that you 80 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 2: need to take care of everything. 81 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: Tina drinks and she smoked a bit of weed, though 82 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: she doesn't really do drugs, but standing on the street corner, 83 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 1: she figures selling them could be a way out, a 84 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: way out of poverty, but also out of the shadow 85 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: of her and her siblings childhoods. 86 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: I'm like cool, I'm like yeah, so I'll basically put 87 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: in the money from the job and my brother was 88 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: actually out on the street hustling in the drug. 89 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: One night, drunk and numbing her pain with booze, Tina's 90 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: gaze turns to hustash. 91 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: I was like, I wonder what they get out of 92 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: chasing this stuff so hard like that, So I tried 93 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 2: the cocaine and I liked the feeling. And if I 94 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: would never have been drunk with dad questioning, I would 95 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: have never tried it. It took me like on a 96 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: high that I was like party like type, and I 97 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: just started sniffing cocaine on a regular basis as I 98 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 2: drink my alcohol, and I got a lot of more 99 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: things done, like I was the best employee of the month, 100 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: I was the best parent of the year. Then I 101 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: realized I had a habit. One day when I didn't 102 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 2: have it and I wanted it, and it started to 103 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: be in a problem. 104 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 3: Oh shit, I'm hooked on this. 105 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: Tina realizes she's no longer capable of looking after the kids, 106 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: so she makes a heart wrenching decision to give them up. 107 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: They end up living with her old foster mom. From 108 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: that decision, I was just in the street. I was 109 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: in the street chasing the drug. I had learned a 110 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: new way to use the drug. I was no longer 111 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: sniffing cocaine. I learned how to smoke the cocaine, which 112 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: is crack cocaine. Before she knows it, Tina is shoplifting 113 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: and burgling to fund her new expensive habit, getting into 114 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: more trouble with the law. She builds up a pretty 115 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: long rap sheet and spends her mid twenties in and 116 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: out of correctional facilities. How did you find it? 117 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: Crazy things? I was having the time of my life. Yeah, 118 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 2: I was with a young crowd there. We was running around, 119 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: and you have to remember how I have been in 120 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: the system. I'm used to this structured life. I do 121 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: good with structured life, being told when to go to bed, 122 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 2: when your area has to be clean. I had no responsibilities, 123 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: I had no bills, I had no chosen to take 124 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: care of. So, yeah, it's crazy to say, but that's 125 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: what it was for me. You know. 126 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: Prison also gave Tina a crucial break from drugs. In 127 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: this highly controlled environment, she's able to get clean and sober. 128 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: But once she's released and back in the outside world, 129 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: that structure she thrived in disappears. She gets back with 130 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: an abusive X for a while. She also starts using 131 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: cocaine again. Desperate to get some stability back, Tina enrolls 132 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: in a drug rehabilitation program. 133 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 2: I went to a program called ARC here in New York. 134 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: I believe it was in Harlem. And yeah, I did 135 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: good in that program. I was working. I was saving 136 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: money to eventually move out. 137 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: That's where she meets a guy we're calling Eli. 138 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 2: He was a funny little character, funny looking little character, 139 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 2: and he was not my tape whatsoever. But he used 140 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: to have me laughing and all that I had been 141 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: going through. That's how he got me, always making a joe, 142 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: putting a smile on my face, lifting my spirits and everything. 143 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: Soon enough they become a couple and things are looking up. 144 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: They're both sober, stable and falling in love. 145 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: And there was another couple that had found the apartment 146 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: and they needed someone else to move in with them, 147 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: and they asked us, and we decided to move out 148 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: with each other. By now, I'm not on drugs, I'm 149 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: not drinking. I'm working on living life. So we move 150 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 2: into this apartment. But the good times don't last. Things 151 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 2: begin to spiral all the laughter was leaving. It started 152 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: to be a lot of sneaky behavior. 153 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: Tina and Eli start bickering all the time, and then 154 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: they start to drift apart. In that isolation, Tina becomes 155 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: depressed and withdrawn from the world. 156 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: I start working, I will stay in a dark room 157 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: all the time. 158 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: Unsurprisingly, she falls back into her old coping mechanisms. 159 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: I'm drinking more heavily, and on the corner, I saw 160 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 2: a boy selling drugs. I went out to see that 161 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: boy and bought drugs, and I started back on my bullshit. 162 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: One night, Tina's drug taking and the tensions with Eli 163 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: reaches a fever pitch. Because of her depression, She's pretty 164 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: much unable to leave the house, which means she stopped working, 165 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: so she's financially dependent on him. She's sitting at home 166 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 1: waiting for him to come back with some money that 167 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: she desperately needs to buy food and drugs. 168 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 2: The time that he told me he would be bad, 169 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: he didn't come back. I'm all crack okay now, So 170 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: I begin to call him and I'm like, where are you? 171 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: He was like, well, I decided to go to Jersie. 172 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: At this point, the argument doesn't seem like anything out 173 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: of the ordinary for any normal couple, a last minute 174 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: change of plans that creates tension, followed by a slew 175 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: of angry texts that were probably taken in the world way. 176 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: Tina is hungry and withdrawing, stewing in her anger back 177 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: at home. By the time Eli does come home with 178 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: food for her, she's on edge and starving. She tears 179 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: into the food. 180 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 2: He was like, ah, damn you hungry as her Oh huh, laughing, 181 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 2: and I'm like, what's funny about that? 182 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: The argument ends, and while Tina takes her leftovers into 183 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: the kitchen, Eli drifts off to sleep in their bedroom. 184 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: No big deal with a Tina. Something has switched. That 185 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: throwaway laugh from Eli was just a mean joke, sure, 186 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: But Tina, it was the final jenger block being pulled 187 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: from a wonky, insecure tower. 188 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 2: I wanted to a hold home. I started thinking of 189 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: my mother, I started thinking of my father. I started 190 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: thinking of everything that I had endured in my life. 191 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: All those familiar and corrosive feelings of anger, fear, abandonment, 192 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: and betrayal rise up in her chest. She starts getting 193 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: high in the kitchen. Her feelings about the earlier argument festering, 194 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: all while images of her brutal life are flashing before 195 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: her eyes. 196 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: The next thing you know, I'm over the stoolball in 197 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: hat grease. 198 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: Tina is experiencing what would later be described as a 199 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: drug induced psychosis, and it's going to drive her to 200 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: do something really, really horrible. So feel free to skip 201 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: ahead about three and a half minutes if you don't 202 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: want to hear the details. 203 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: I'm looking at this grease boil you, and I'm still 204 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: thinking of not just him per se. It was about 205 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: everything in life. I'm back on drugs. I've disappointed so 206 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 2: many people that don't know I'm back on drugs again. 207 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: And as I'm leaving out of the kitchen with the 208 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: boiling grease, I pick up a knife and I head 209 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: towards our bathroom. I remember putting the pot down on 210 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: that radiator, thinking to myself like I had two voices. 211 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: One was saying, don't do this, this is so wrong, 212 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: and another like fuck that, Like people keep playing you. 213 00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: How long are you gonna be stupid? How long are 214 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: you gonna be a And I opened their door with 215 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: their hat powder goose in our win'ar into her while he. 216 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: Was sleeping boiling oil makes contact with Eli's skin, causing 217 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: third degree burns. Panicking, he jumps up from the bed 218 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: in the small bedroom, they start tussling with the knife 219 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: still in Tina's hand. Tina's lost in a chaotic blur 220 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: of drugs and fear and anger. She doesn't know what 221 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: she's doing until she feels herself stab Eli in the stomach. 222 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: I pulled a knife out and he fell onto the bed, 223 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: so he's just leaning there. He says to me, He says, 224 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: I love you, and I'm looking at him in this 225 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: DZ and I'm like, oh, now you love me, Now 226 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: you love me. And I remember leaving out of that room, 227 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: going back into the kitchen and continue getting hi, getting 228 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: high in the kitchen and continue getting hot. 229 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 3: I'm so high, and. 230 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: I remember the drugs eventually going low until they was gone, 231 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: and I started coming to a little bit of reality 232 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, and he started conversating with me. 233 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 2: He was like, if you just leave and call nine 234 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 2: one one for me, I won't tell them that you 235 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: did this. I'll tell them somebody else did this. I 236 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 2: picked up a trick. She hurt me or a friend 237 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 2: they did this. But I have to get help, please. 238 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: I have children, and that's what did it for me. 239 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 2: And I remember looking up at him because he was moaning, 240 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: and that's why I saw the damage that I had 241 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,239 Speaker 2: to time, and I will say and ourself, how. 242 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: Did I be? 243 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 2: What the newspapers say that I was in that room 244 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 2: we have for thirty six hours. I don't know if 245 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: it was that long, but I knew it was more 246 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: than a day that we was like that in her room. 247 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: Tina wasn't aware until after the incident, but she had 248 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: stabbed Eli multiple times in the leg, in the hand, 249 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: and in the stomach, piercing vital organs. Now, I just 250 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: want to pause here for a moment and say, I 251 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: know that this will have been really difficult to listen to. 252 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: Believe me, it's been pretty difficult to report on. If 253 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,719 Speaker 1: I'm honest, I don't enjoy breaking over the lurid details 254 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: of Tina's life or this incident. But considering Jailhouse Lawyer 255 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: has really been about a woman who has always maintained 256 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,639 Speaker 1: her innocence, I think it's important to challenge ourselves with 257 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: an e even more complicated case, with a woman who absolutely, 258 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: without a shred of doubt, has committed a violent crime 259 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: against a man who was not abusive towards her. In fact, 260 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: in this moment, it's Tina who's the perpetrator of domestic violence. 261 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: What should the system do with women like Tina who 262 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: have experienced a lifetime of abuse, but who have also 263 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: caused a lot of harm. I feel in my gut 264 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: that there has to be some kind of consequences for 265 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: something like this, for Tina, for Eli, and for the 266 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: greater public. But when I try and come up with 267 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: one perfect solution for everyone, I come up short. I 268 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: think it comes down to thinking about what justice really 269 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: looks like, and whether our end goal is to help 270 00:18:54,400 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: or if it's simply to punish. As the drugs are 271 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: wearing off, Tina starts to really comprehend what she's done 272 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: with shaking hands. She calls the police and tells them 273 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: what's happened, and she texts her sister. 274 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 3: So I'm all gone away for Lata this time. 275 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: When the police show up, they quickly notice Tina's psych 276 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: medication on the dresser, and the process of getting her 277 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: into a secure hospital begins. She's assessed by doctors, interviewed 278 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: by police officers. The whole time Tina remains steadfastly honest. 279 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: I was going to be willing and accepting of it. 280 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: I was going to tell the truth of what happened. 281 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: I went in with hours high, and I committed the 282 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 2: Crown and I Committee. 283 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,400 Speaker 1: She spends the next month or so in a secure 284 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: psychiatric hospital on a course of various heavy medications. 285 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: As far as arraignment, meeting my public defender for the 286 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: first time. 287 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: I was so drugged up. 288 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: I was a little slower with my speech, my thought process, 289 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: and everything was like a little blurred. 290 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: Finally, she spat out into Rikers Island Jail, where she's 291 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: eventually put into the intensive treatment unit. This is where 292 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: they house people with complex mental health histories, and just 293 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: like Kelly did, Tina starts opening up to the women 294 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: around her. 295 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: Eventually, we all had conversations with each other, and yeah, 296 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: majority of every woman that I talked to that was 297 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: on unit with us had been through some type of 298 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 2: domestic rounds abuse. We were all there for hurting a 299 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: man that we was in a relationship with. Every single 300 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: one of it, every single one of us on this shown. 301 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 1: One day, Tina is on the phone to her mother 302 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: when her mom catches her by surprise. 303 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: She said, guess who came by my house? So I'm 304 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: thinking she was going to say my ex husband came by. 305 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 2: So I'm like, oh, who came out? Now it's Eli. 306 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: He's alive and he's in her mother's house. 307 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 3: I'm confused. I'm so confused. 308 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 2: I'm like, for what now, I'm thinking, you know you're 309 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: gonna get back at me in horror my family. She 310 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 2: was like, no, he wanted to know you know where 311 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: you were at, And she said he's gonna come see you, 312 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: and I'm like what. 313 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: It's a lot to take in. Not only has Eli survived, 314 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: but he's well enough to casually visit Tina's mother with 315 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: no malice or anger. 316 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: By the time I hung up the phone with my mother, 317 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: they said, you have a visit. I'm like, I have 318 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 2: a visit now. My mother just told me this, but 319 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 2: I'm still not thinking it's him. He's not coming to 320 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: see me. So I get to the visiting floor and 321 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 2: it's him. 322 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: Sitting behind the protective glass waiting to meet her, the 323 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: man she essentially tortured and nearly killed. 324 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what to say. I'm totally confused, why 325 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 2: are you here? And he's like you know, I had 326 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: to come see you. I want you to know that 327 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: I forgive you and that I'm going to be here 328 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: to support you do all of this. 329 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: And I'm like, what. 330 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: The visit ended with him saying, you know, do you 331 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 2: need anything, I'll be back next week and you know 332 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: you can call me when if you want to let 333 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,439 Speaker 2: me know if you need anything. In it, really, I 334 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: don't know, really was nothing behind it but forgiveness, but 335 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: I really did not know how to take it at 336 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,960 Speaker 2: the time. I'm like, why would you want to forgive 337 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: me for a situation such as this. 338 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: Eli actually becomes a huge advocate for Tina. He says 339 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: he understands that she was high experiencing a psychological break, 340 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't really her. Her public defender, a man named 341 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: George du Pontis, also has her back. George was actually 342 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: the first person to suggest to Tina that there might 343 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: be a connection between her crime and her past experiences. 344 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: He then suggests that to the court too, this connection 345 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: between the abuse she had suffered and her attack on Eli. 346 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: This and the fact she pled guilty to attempted murder 347 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: straight away means that her sentence is reduced from twenty 348 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: five to life down to sixteen. Tina says her goodbyes 349 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: to the women on her Rikers' unit and gets ready 350 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 1: to face the years ahead at Bedford Hills Prison. From 351 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: the moment she arrives at Bedford Hills, Tina knew this 352 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: was going to be a drastically different experience from her 353 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: first incarceration. Back then, she'd relish the break from responsibility 354 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: and even enjoyed her time side. At this time, she's 355 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: on a mission. 356 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 2: She was trying to understand me and how did I 357 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: get to that point in my life. 358 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: One of the first things to sort was getting visitation 359 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: rights for. 360 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 2: Eli, because automatically it was a restrainer ordered issue for 361 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 2: me not to be in contact with him. So he 362 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: went to the courts and basically asks to be able 363 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 2: to come see me. 364 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 3: Then we started having visits. 365 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: And then there's a shitlight of self work. 366 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: Today there was this program called Family Balance, and I 367 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: was like, oh, this might be, you know, a good 368 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 2: fit for me and what I was trying to understand, 369 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 2: and I went in open. 370 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 3: I'm the only one talking for a good two weeks. 371 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 2: I'm just pouring my heart out and you know, trying 372 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: to get a better understanding, and from me talking, other 373 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: people began to open up and talk. 374 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: Tina puts in the hard graft like this for years, 375 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: trying to unravel the knots of her lifelong traumas from 376 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: the reality of what she did to Eli. When in 377 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: around twenty nineteen, she hears about a new law called 378 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 1: the DVSJA the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act. You heard 379 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: about it in Kelly's story. The law works to reduce 380 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: the sentences of people whose experiences of domestic abuse have 381 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 1: been shown to influence their crimes. It's clearly relevant to 382 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: Tina's case, so she contacts her lawyer, who in turn 383 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: puts her in touch with a woman named Kate. Kate Mogolescu, 384 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 1: the lawyer that Tina introduced to Kelly in episode seven. 385 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: A lawyer slash professor at Brooklyn Law School, and I 386 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: remember meeting her, little, sure, curly black hair, Jewish lady. 387 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 2: Nobody really knows how to go about this dismal law. 388 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: So she's discussing how I'm a good candidate because of 389 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: all the abuse that I went through as a child. 390 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: Kate and Tina get to work compiling a trove of 391 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: documents and details about the abuse Tina had suffered. It's heavy, 392 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: hard work, trawling through the worst moments of her life, 393 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: building the case, one painful memory at a time, all 394 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: for her application to be rejected. 395 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 2: The abuse wasn't substantial at the time of the crime, 396 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 2: so I was denied a hearing and I was hurt. 397 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 3: It wasn't even about the freedom. 398 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 2: I think I was more hurt because I felt like 399 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: I wasn't being hurt. I remember Kate saying to me, 400 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 2: but we're not going to give up. We're going to 401 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: shry something else. 402 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: Kate thinks that Tina could be eligible for clemency from 403 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: the governor. Clemency basically means mercy. The idea is that 404 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: the governor would look at the context of Tina's life, 405 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: as well as the work she's done since, and decide 406 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: if that sixteen year sentence was really the right call. 407 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: If the governor decides it's not that she deserves a 408 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 1: little mercy, Tina could have her sentence changed or reduced. 409 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: But she's not buying it. 410 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: I'm definitely not thinking I'm going to get clemency. There's 411 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 2: no way in the world. Sorry to say, black women 412 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 2: that was in garsret is not getting clemency from prison 413 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: like the ones that we have. Her was wait and 414 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 2: let alone a woman at all. Men get calmucy. Women 415 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: don't get clemency in the state of New York. That's 416 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 2: just like a non effect. 417 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: Despite this, Kate and Tina finish assembling the paperwork, They 418 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: get a testimonial of support from ELI, and then they 419 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 1: file the case. One morning, the officer on duty tells 420 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: Tina to get ready because she's being cooled down to 421 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: an area known as traffic. It's where the superintendent is posted, 422 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: and it's also the area that you go for visitation. 423 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 2: And I don't have a visit, so I'm like, what 424 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 2: do you want me for? So instantly I thought somebody died. 425 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: They they're calling me down here to inform me that 426 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 2: somebody pats away in my family. 427 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: She's been told by the officer to hurry up and 428 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: get ready. Somebody is coming to get her and escort 429 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: her down there. 430 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: And I'm being escorted somebody's did. I asked him what 431 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 3: am I going down here for? He was like, I 432 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 3: don't know. They just told me to bring you down here. 433 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: As soon as she walks through the door and into traffic, 434 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: she notices the superintendent standing. 435 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 3: There, tall, hm scary leading. 436 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: Tina's ushered into a room with a box of tissues 437 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: sitting on the table. 438 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 3: Yup, somebody's dead. Who is it? 439 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: The superin tenant says nothing and they sit down. Tina's 440 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: mind is running through every awful possibility. The superintendent looks 441 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: up at her. 442 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 2: She's like, I just want to say congratulations to you. 443 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: As soon as she said that, I knew and I 444 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: just started crying. 445 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: Governor Hochel has granted Tina clemency. 446 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: And I was like, she did it, She did it, 447 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: And she was like, who did it. 448 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: I'm like my lawyer, like my lawyer. 449 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: She did it. After seven and a half years behind bars, 450 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: years of reflecting on the terrible crime she committed and 451 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: the terrible crimes that were committed against her, Tina is free. 452 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,800 Speaker 2: As I was walking up the hill with the officer 453 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: with my good news, I started thinking of all the 454 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 2: other women here who had been fighting, who had been 455 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 2: fighting before me, the ones who deserved it, mourning me, 456 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 2: the one that was seventy eighty years old. Oh no, 457 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 2: I just felt like there were so many other people 458 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: that should be in my shoes dead day. 459 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: These days, Tina is out and sober, with a job 460 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: and a roof over her head, but she never stopped 461 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: thinking about those women left inside, and now she spends 462 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: her time fighting for them. She joined the organization founded 463 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: by her lawyer Kate. It's called SJP, the Survivor's Justice Project. 464 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: They focus on using the DVSJA to get survivors out 465 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: of prison through reduced sentences. 466 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 2: SJP is basically a group of forly incarcerated women that 467 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 2: sits on the board and give their experiences to make 468 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 2: the law better than what it is. And the biggest 469 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 2: thing with the law that needs to be changed is 470 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: how they look at substantial. 471 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: Tina's talking about what counts as substantial abuse in the 472 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: eyes of the law. 473 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: At the time of my crime, my abuse was substantial, 474 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: but the court don't see it as we see it 475 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: because I walked my whole life with scars on my 476 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 2: body and my emotions of all that happened to me 477 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: throughout my life. So it was substantial at the time 478 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: of my crime. And that's what we're trying to make 479 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: them understand a different way of how to look at 480 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: this law so other women who are in the same 481 00:32:54,600 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: situation can come home earlier. Because they're still victims in 482 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: the court style see it is it. 483 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure there were many people who read the headlines 484 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: about Tina's crime when it first happened, people who are 485 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: probably shocked that she's free just eight years later. But 486 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: ask yourself this, If Tina was still in prison today, 487 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: what good would it do. She's long since taken full 488 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: accountability for what she did. She spent years behind bars, 489 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: painstakingly re examining her past, and she's even got the 490 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: forgiveness and support of the person she hurt. Tina did 491 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: something terrible and she's not afraid to own that, but 492 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: that doesn't take away from the fact that she's also 493 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: a victim and a survivor. I keep coming back to 494 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: that question I asked earlier, is a goal to help 495 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: or punish? In my mind, our social and legal structures 496 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: should help citizens be the best they can be. Tina 497 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: has already been let down by those systems time and 498 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: time again. Locking her up will not break that cycle. 499 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: So what should we do with women like Tina instead? 500 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: Next week? I ask an expert, just that we have. 501 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 3: Told people that justice is punishment. 502 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: We are a retributive people, and it's what we've been taught, 503 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 1: and I don't want to live in that kind of society. 504 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: And I eat some humble pie. 505 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 3: Yeah. 506 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 1: I was listening to the first season and was yelling 507 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: at the at the radio. I liked the idea of 508 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: you yelling at the radio at the work. That that idea, 509 00:34:51,719 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 1: and I think that's great. The Girlfriend's Gelhouse Lawyer is 510 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts. For more from Novel, 511 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 1: visit novel dot Audio. The show is hosted by me 512 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: Annasinfield and is written and produced by me and Lee Meyer, 513 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: with additional production from Jako Taivich and Michael Jinno. Our 514 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: assistant producer is Madeline Parr. The editors are Georgia Moody 515 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: and me Annasinfield. Production management from Shari Houston, Joe Savage, 516 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: and Charlotte Wolfe. Our fact checker is Daniel Suleiman. Sound design, 517 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music 518 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: supervision by me alis Infield, Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander. 519 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 1: Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson and Louisa Gerstein. 520 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: Story development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton. Creative 521 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 1: director of Novel, Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan are executive 522 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: producers for Novel, and Katrina Norvell and Niki Eator are 523 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts. And the marketing lead 524 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: is Alison Cantor. Thanks also to Kerry Lieberman and the 525 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: whole team at WME.