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Speaker 1: Well, folks, it's time for our weekly classic episode, and

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Speaker 1: we sure hope you enjoyed last week's because this is

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Speaker 1: very closely related. We talked about magic, and we talked

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Speaker 1: about technology, the technology of the occult. This is always

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Speaker 1: deep water for us. Do you remember this one? Guys? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: There's always an interesting fine line between technology, religion, the

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Speaker 1: occult magic. It's all kind of this like big ball

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Speaker 1: of wax that is sometimes hard to separate out which

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Speaker 1: one is actually operating, you know what I mean. I

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Speaker 1: just want to learn more about the matrix, and I

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Speaker 1: think this episode, uh opens the veil a bit. Sure,

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Speaker 1: all right, take the pill. Let's go from UFOs to

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Speaker 1: psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events.

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Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they

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Speaker 1: don't quant you to know. Hello, and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the program. My name is Noel, It's Noel the Madman Brown.

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Speaker 1: My name is Ben. You are hopefully still yourself. Just

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Speaker 1: be yourself. That's an amazing thing. Uh, And we are back.

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Speaker 1: Our compatriot, our our comrade, our our buddy, our buddy,

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Speaker 1: are our fellow podcast revolutionary slash conspiracy realist Matt Frederick

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Speaker 1: remains on a secret mission as we record this. However,

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Speaker 1: if you listened to our episode the previous week, wherein

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Speaker 1: we we delved into the uh the realm of alchemy,

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Speaker 1: then you know that we have a returning UH special

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Speaker 1: guest with us. Is is a friend of ours, friend

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Speaker 1: of the show who writes extensively about religious studies. I

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Speaker 1: would say, philosophy, the history of philosophy, the future of philosophy. Yeah, consciousness,

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Speaker 1: UH and UH, technology and the occult. Ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 1: Let's welcome back to the show, Damian Patrick Williams. Very

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Speaker 1: happy to be back with you guys. It's almost like

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Speaker 1: we were just here a few minutes ago and then

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Speaker 1: we just came back in the room. What is time?

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Speaker 1: What is space? What is a shout out corner? Shout

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Speaker 1: at corners? Well, Ben, a shout out corner is a

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Speaker 1: segment of the stuff that I want you to know

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Speaker 1: audio podcast, wherein we shout out to various listeners that

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Speaker 1: right in and request said shout out. And you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes we just pull them off the cuff, and we

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Speaker 1: pull people on Facebook that deserve a nice word because

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Speaker 1: of their clever interactions and um, you know, but a

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Speaker 1: lot of times people have really been enjoying it, so

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Speaker 1: they've been writing in and asking for him. So what

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Speaker 1: you got? So what we have today? This is a

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Speaker 1: This is a good one, you guys. Justin Cruise A

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Speaker 1: K A the Cruise A K A J krizzle x

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Speaker 1: calm could it be real? Just played the bureau x

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Speaker 1: cam Declassified x com two on Twitch. Shout out to you.

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Speaker 1: Justin Cruise A K A the Cruise A K A

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Speaker 1: J krizzle A k A cruise missile. Just got a

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Speaker 1: new nickname? Yeah, well this is he. This is a

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Speaker 1: game that Nolan I have played before where we Sayson's

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Speaker 1: David just a K A and keep adding nicknames. It's

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Speaker 1: it's fun until you're more than three drinks in and

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Speaker 1: then when it gets really weird. Sometimes they were just

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Speaker 1: sentences and like A K A Once upon a time

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Speaker 1: in the forties. Uh, at which point, no, you uh,

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Speaker 1: you wisely um told me to get some water. You know,

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Speaker 1: I just change the subject, just changed the subject. That's true.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you have some bread? Yeah? Oh, that's the worst

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Speaker 1: part of the barrow where someone just says, can I

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Speaker 1: could I just have some bread? I know there's a

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Speaker 1: menu but may I just have two slices of bread? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Our next shout out comes to us from old friend

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Speaker 1: of the show and a mini shows here at House

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Speaker 1: of Words, Aaron Cooper, who says, fun fact, if you

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Speaker 1: say Coop three times, I will magically appear allah beetlejuice.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know worth a try hashtag shout out corner,

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Speaker 1: hashtag Coop Coop Coop? Where is he got to be

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Speaker 1: a mirror and this is just a piece of glass?

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's like alchemy. Maybe we just didn't do the

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Speaker 1: ritual correctly. Yeah, you might have said it just a

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Speaker 1: little bit too fast. We need like a wand of

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Speaker 1: ash or something. Yeah, are like some things that that

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Speaker 1: Coop likes on the table with us? Uh uh walk

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Speaker 1: winter shins under a moonless night. All right, it's text

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Speaker 1: that's true, Okay. Our final shout out for today, Uh,

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Speaker 1: Troy Land, I hope I am pronouncing your name correctly,

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Speaker 1: but I fear I am not. Uh says I'd like

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Speaker 1: a shout out to I'm cool, and then sent us

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Speaker 1: a send us a gift of Hey Mitch from Hunger

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Speaker 1: Games approving of something. Well, Troy, we think you're cool.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show, and that is our

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Speaker 1: shout out corner. Gosh. So today we're gonna go a

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Speaker 1: little bit outside the norm of our show and that

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Speaker 1: we're going to have a particularly free ranging conversation about

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Speaker 1: a topic that is fascinating to all three of us

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Speaker 1: for sure, and that Damien has a bit of a

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Speaker 1: background in um, which is technology and its intersection with

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Speaker 1: the occult. So, I mean, I wasn't even really aware

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Speaker 1: of this as a as an idea. I mean, it

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Speaker 1: makes sense when you think about it, and there's so

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Speaker 1: many ways that you can kind of match those two

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Speaker 1: concepts together. But Damian, if you could, can you give

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Speaker 1: us just a little bit of a background on what

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Speaker 1: this is and and where how you came to it, Maylor,

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Speaker 1: Damon's no, not, but that was worth it. That's something

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Speaker 1: that's that's definitely something you should be thinking about. Um No. Um.

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Speaker 1: My background with this comes from a longstanding investigation into

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Speaker 1: the nature of consciousness, the nature of knowledge from philosophical perspective.

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Speaker 1: I did my my master's thesis on philosophy and the

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Speaker 1: occult and ritual theory and the history of magic and

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Speaker 1: the history of what it is we mean when we

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Speaker 1: say we know something, um, and how that's changed a

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Speaker 1: great great deal over the course of our human history. UM,

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Speaker 1: and you know, really weird, kind of strange sense. Um.

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Speaker 1: You can actually trace this back to comics cartoons, Gargoyles.

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Speaker 1: Actually remember the show Gargoyles. Um, David Xanatos, the person

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Speaker 1: who would make use of superscience and magic to make new,

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Speaker 1: weird super science magic that was like an aspirational ideal

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Speaker 1: of mine as a child. So, um, it's fun to say,

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Speaker 1: and it's cute, but it's also vaguely true. So I

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Speaker 1: got to start thinking about these things at an early age. Um.

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Speaker 1: What we mentioned last week about this point at which

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Speaker 1: science and magic became kind of antagonistic to each other,

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Speaker 1: right when they started to see each other not as

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Speaker 1: the same process, the same pursuit as they used to

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Speaker 1: be uh seen during the times of the incant Greeks

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Speaker 1: and other non Western cultures. Um, as they even still

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Speaker 1: are today in many non Western cultures. But in the West,

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Speaker 1: there's this certain moment where they diverge. And I got

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Speaker 1: to thinking about why that was, why we've gotten to

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Speaker 1: this point where magic and science are so deeply antagonistic

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Speaker 1: towards each other. UM. Why when we talk about magic

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Speaker 1: in the West, we're using it most often UM as

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Speaker 1: a kind of a foil character Usn't it as something

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Speaker 1: to to make science look good? Right? Go, it's not magic,

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Speaker 1: UM is usually how we talk about it, or we

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Speaker 1: talk about something being like magic, or we talk about

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Speaker 1: it it's it's just as easy as waving a wand

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Speaker 1: or silver bullet or you know, any number of things

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Speaker 1: like that, these kind of magical metaphors. UM. But there's

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Speaker 1: this point, there had to be this point where these

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Speaker 1: things overlapped, where they were the same processes. And that's

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Speaker 1: what I'm interested in. It's almost something we touched on

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Speaker 1: at the end of the Alchemy episode where we talked about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the future of alchemy and how UM, so

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Speaker 1: many of these process is that when they were conceived

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Speaker 1: at the time largely involved mysticism and magic and you know, transmutation.

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Speaker 1: But now there's this um these modern processes that essentially

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Speaker 1: achieve the results of the resought after but you know,

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Speaker 1: with modern technology, and I think the interesting places where

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Speaker 1: those two things meet UM, whether there's a hybrid of

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Speaker 1: the two, or whether it's like sort of one coming

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Speaker 1: as a result of the other. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that makes sense. Well, yeah, let's start with let's just

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Speaker 1: start with some the most basic definitions so that we

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Speaker 1: can we can build our understanding off of this, because

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Speaker 1: there's a few things here that I am oddly thrilled

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Speaker 1: to talk about, even though I know we probably won't

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Speaker 1: get to everything. Well, actually, we certainly won't get to

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Speaker 1: everything that the three of us want to explore today.

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Speaker 1: But what we will hopefully do, listeners is pose some questions,

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Speaker 1: and even more important ly, we would like for you

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Speaker 1: to write to us with your questions. You can find

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Speaker 1: you know, if they just pop up for you as

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Speaker 1: you're listening to this. Uh, you can find Nolan I

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at conspiracy stuff, and you can find Damien

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Speaker 1: at wolven w O l v E N. So if

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Speaker 1: something pops up while you're while you're listening to this, uh,

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Speaker 1: then use technology to communicate with us instantly send us

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Speaker 1: a message, uh, the same way. You know, it's essentially

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Speaker 1: clear avoyance at this point. And yeah, and that's actually

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Speaker 1: something that somebody was bringing up with me in conversation

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Speaker 1: that via technology that we have it as recent Yes,

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Speaker 1: this year, we've basically achieved our dream of being able

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Speaker 1: to telepathically communicate with each other, right, and uh, we

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's a nightmare yet. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: like how four chan is such an argument against direct democracy, right, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's what that looks like. So, so at the most

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Speaker 1: basic definition, when we say the occult and technology, let's

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Speaker 1: define you call, let's define technology. Human beings are the

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Speaker 1: great artificers of this planet so far, so far, and

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Speaker 1: that might well we'll talk about that part too, because

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Speaker 1: some of this is going to get kind of dark

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Speaker 1: in this episode, unfortunately, unfortunately. So technology is just a

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Speaker 1: collection of skills, of methods, techniques I guess used to

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Speaker 1: create something a good result is even you know what,

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Speaker 1: that's an even better way to say it. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of almost anything could be in this regard finding

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Speaker 1: a better way to position roll of toilet paper. Remember

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Speaker 1: there's a big fight on the internet about that. That

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Speaker 1: is a kind of technology, and so it technology doesn't

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Speaker 1: always mean just a a computer or a lever lever. Also,

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Speaker 1: and I know this is gonna be this, this is

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Speaker 1: gonna be one that you might want to tackle, damien um.

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Speaker 1: The definition of occult, Yes, the occult in many ways

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Speaker 1: came about as uh, a way to simply talk about

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Speaker 1: the unknown. UM. I mean the word itself occult means

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Speaker 1: to hide. Um. When something is occulted, it is hidden,

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Speaker 1: it is blocked from view. We use that word when

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Speaker 1: we talk about astronomy, astronomical bodies, right, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the nature of the movement of the moon and

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Speaker 1: the Sun and the Earth during an eclipse, you know,

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Speaker 1: full occultations. Um. But we mean it in this sense

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Speaker 1: to talk about knowledge that's hidden. Uh, technologies that are hidden,

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Speaker 1: processes that are hidden, um, that aren't known and widely available.

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Speaker 1: One of the most common hermetic philosophical hermetic magical phrases

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Speaker 1: or mottoes, and it's kind of again kind of or

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Speaker 1: expect what we were talking about last week, but is

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Speaker 1: to know and keep silent. Ah, yes, yes, to know

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Speaker 1: and keep silent no uh no, spoilers would be another

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Speaker 1: exactly right. Get there, you get there, and you have

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Speaker 1: to get there yourself. So UM. Noel and Matt and

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Speaker 1: Damien and I we're talking a number of weeks ago

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Speaker 1: about what we would cover. We went on the show

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Speaker 1: and we knew that we wanted to do an episode

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Speaker 1: on alchemy. But in our conversation, we started stumbling onto

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Speaker 1: these amazing weird things. Uh. One one of the big

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Speaker 1: ones stuck out to us was that in the modern age,

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Speaker 1: right for everybody listening, the entire time you've been alive,

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Speaker 1: most of the world has has treated reports of the supernatural,

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Speaker 1: whether those would be extrasensory powers like telepathy, whether that

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Speaker 1: would be returning from the dead, whether that would be

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Speaker 1: predicting the future, whether that would be godlike entities. We've

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Speaker 1: treated these largely as um an interesting result of a

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Speaker 1: society at the time, rather than an actual thing. But

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Speaker 1: now we advanced to you, and we'll do this part

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Speaker 1: earlier in the show, so we can get right to

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Speaker 1: the juicy stuff. Here's where it gets crazy, and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna steal line for Fox News here, guys. Now, more

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Speaker 1: than ever, we are closer to those things becoming real,

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Speaker 1: and some already have. Uh. The the argument about telepathy

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Speaker 1: we we talked about, um, we talked about divination, right, so, UM,

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Speaker 1: so divination being able to usually used to tell the future,

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Speaker 1: being able to to figure out something about the world's

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Speaker 1: usually as you said, something about the future by kind

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Speaker 1: of taking many disparate symbols or signs you can read

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Speaker 1: and kind of putting them in a context and then

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Speaker 1: figuring something out about them. One of the first kinds

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Speaker 1: of dat of divination was augury following the flight paths

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Speaker 1: of birds um divination via entrails UM. But the when

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Speaker 1: you cut open an animal, the specific arrangement of their

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Speaker 1: innerts can tell you things. And then if you look

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Speaker 1: at the texture and constitution of their innerts you can

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Speaker 1: learn different things. And like you can descry with a

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Speaker 1: mirror or with any reflective surface UM, and different surfaces

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Speaker 1: can are supposed to be able to give you different

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Speaker 1: type of information. And then there's um cartomancy, cards terror yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got funomancy using music to you know, divine something

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Speaker 1: either about the future, what's about to happen, or what's

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Speaker 1: happening right now, things you should pay attention to, right Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love these said. There's not necessarily in the future

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Speaker 1: all the time. But this still exists today. Uh in

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Speaker 1: what at least in the West, Well, practices of some

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Speaker 1: sort of divination do exist. The weird thing is that

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Speaker 1: some of those did have a scientific basis. You know,

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Speaker 1: the following the flight path of birds may not tell

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Speaker 1: you um, if you are going to meet your true love.

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Speaker 1: But but it will tell you quite possibly something about

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Speaker 1: the weather. It will tell you quite possibly something about

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Speaker 1: food sources. So one of those is the future. The

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Speaker 1: other is the present that would have otherwise been a halted.

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Speaker 1: So here's the thing though, even though we look at

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Speaker 1: this now, we we permit the palmistry. Right, we'll go.

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Speaker 1: You know, I took a date to uh to a

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Speaker 1: psychic one time, and uh, I was I was trying

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Speaker 1: to be cool, but I was so skeptical. I thought,

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna cold read me. I'm just gonna purposely

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Speaker 1: throwing clues. So I'd like twitch my left shoulder just

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Speaker 1: at odd times. So what would happen? Um, which, you know,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't troll a psychic. That was a little It

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Speaker 1: is so rude. I was a different person at the time.

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Speaker 1: But um, but we permit that stuff. But it's not

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Speaker 1: taken as seriously, at least here in the West. In

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Speaker 1: some countries like in Myanmar Burma, astrology is hugely important

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Speaker 1: to the ruling parties, So this stuff is still around.

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Speaker 1: But here's another thing that that's changing that we started

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Speaker 1: talking about with the emergence of correlations of massive amounts

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Speaker 1: of data. We are now closer and closer and closer

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Speaker 1: to building the oracles that used to be legends. Right,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk a little bit about that. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: like this was this was one of my like one

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Speaker 1: of the major things that we talked about that was

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Speaker 1: just really really cool to me. Um. I love. I'm

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Speaker 1: a big fan of Carl Young. So when I when

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Speaker 1: I look at the ways to think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: the ways out there that are available to think about

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Speaker 1: religion and magical practice and mysterious or cult experience, I

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Speaker 1: look at Young a lot um because he rode this

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Speaker 1: line between being deeply, deeply skeptical of these things while

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Speaker 1: being directly immersed in them at the same time. So

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Speaker 1: I kind of I'm pretty I'm a pretty big fan

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Speaker 1: of that. Um. But Young talks about divination, um, and

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Speaker 1: he talks about the connection between divination and the collective unconscious,

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Speaker 1: and uh, this idea of synchronicity. Right, these things that

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Speaker 1: are connected, but aren't they don't cause each other, Like

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Speaker 1: my reading a tarot card doesn't cause something to happen

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Speaker 1: in the world. It's it's a way for you to

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Speaker 1: look at what's happening in the world. It's a way

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Speaker 1: for you to think about what's happening in the world.

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Speaker 1: Both the tarot reading and the thing that's happening, they

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Speaker 1: are caused distantly by something else. Um, if I hear

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Speaker 1: a song on the radio that reminds me of you

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Speaker 1: and then you call me, Like those things didn't cause

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Speaker 1: each other. They are caused distantly by something else that

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Speaker 1: they are connected to. There are a ripple of another event.

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Speaker 1: Exactly so in this way, when Young talks about tarot,

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Speaker 1: he's not talking about it as like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: read you the future. I'm not going to read you

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Speaker 1: this thing that is immutable and by reading it it

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Speaker 1: becomes so, he says, rather, what you're doing. What you

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Speaker 1: can a way you can think about what you're doing

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Speaker 1: is you can look at it as a psychological tool.

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Speaker 1: You need a you need a unit of distance to

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Speaker 1: be able to see your situation. You're thinking about something,

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Speaker 1: you're trying to understand something, you want to come to

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Speaker 1: figure out something right, and so you've got to have

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Speaker 1: something to kind of be an intermediary between you because

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Speaker 1: you're in it, you're too close to it. And if

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Speaker 1: you're too close to it. You can't you can't get

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Speaker 1: perspective on it. So here's some cards, here's here's some

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Speaker 1: music that you can kind of process it through that

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Speaker 1: you can kind of turn it around and get some

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Speaker 1: symbolic representations with. And then now that you've got this distance,

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Speaker 1: you can kind of try to pull out some meanings,

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Speaker 1: some sense, some different perspectives and get your head around

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Speaker 1: it now that we've got big data. And this is

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Speaker 1: something that came up in this um kind of unconference

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Speaker 1: I went to back in two thousand and fourteen called

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Speaker 1: Magic Codes Ums, put together by Ingrid Burrington and Casey

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Speaker 1: Golan and Inger Burnington. She does infrastructure work. She does

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Speaker 1: data technologies and networking systems. She has a book called

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Speaker 1: Hidden Networks of New York and it's about basically seeing

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Speaker 1: network infrastructure. She wrote this piece for The Atlantic a

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Speaker 1: little while ago about finding the hidden and the occulted

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Speaker 1: infrastructure on which all of our data and all of

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Speaker 1: our information depends. UH. And so she puts this conference

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Speaker 1: together because while she's thinking about these things, she was

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Speaker 1: thinking about all of the connections, these overlaps between UH,

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Speaker 1: coding technology, Magic, all of this, and one of the

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Speaker 1: things that we came up with was this idea of

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Speaker 1: big data divination, the idea that what we are actually

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Speaker 1: doing with big data as we are putting all of

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Speaker 1: this where you spend your time, how much money you

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Speaker 1: spent at this particular Starbucks, where your cell phone tower

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Speaker 1: pained off of your cell phone at this particular point,

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Speaker 1: and for how long, what number you call at what

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Speaker 1: periods and intervals? For how long do you speak to them?

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Speaker 1: Who do you text in what like? And we correlate

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Speaker 1: all of this vast, vast information, and we create a

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Speaker 1: picture and we say, out of all of this through

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Speaker 1: these algorithms, with this correlation, here you are and you

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Speaker 1: are this kind of person, and you will do this

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, and you will be this kind of way.

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Speaker 1: I know this because I read it. I know this

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Speaker 1: because my algorithm showed it to me. That's so you know,

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Speaker 1: what could go wrong? Could go wrong? I mean for

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Speaker 1: the Greeks, I mean they lasted pretty good with divination

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Speaker 1: and oracles. The oracle at Delphi I worked out pretty

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Speaker 1: great for a couple of hundred years there. So maybe

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Speaker 1: we'll be all right. So we just need to teach

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Speaker 1: the algorithm to huff fumes hang in a cave huffs

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Speaker 1: and fumes and tell me, tell me what the lottery

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Speaker 1: numbers are. That's that's a that's a fascinating idea. No,

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Speaker 1: what what do you think about this? Here's one of

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Speaker 1: my big questions for this one before we move on

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Speaker 1: something else. Should we create something like this? Well, I

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Speaker 1: mean we don't really have the choice. It's it's already.

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Speaker 1: It exists already more or less because we're feeding it,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean it's like if you look at

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Speaker 1: something like Facebook, for example, that we willingly give our

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Speaker 1: information to that then makes its way you know, to

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Speaker 1: Google and are we've got search Basically our email is

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Speaker 1: mind for search terms that are then fed back to

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Speaker 1: us via Facebook and you know, targeted ads and things

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean, the algorithms are just going to

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Speaker 1: get better. The machine already exists. It's just not something

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Speaker 1: that we consciously interact with in the sense of what

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Speaker 1: is going to happen? How am I going to behave?

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a very proprietary thing that's being used,

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Speaker 1: you know, for at the end of the day, very

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Speaker 1: tawdry purposes. I mean, just trying to sell us a

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Speaker 1: better pair of shoes or one that we're more likely

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Speaker 1: to buy, not even necessarily better the ones that appeal

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Speaker 1: to us. Absolutely, So yeah, I mean they're targeting us

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Speaker 1: with what we would already be willing to buy. That's

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Speaker 1: what that's that's the most helpful information. They want to

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Speaker 1: show us the thing that is going to make the sale,

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Speaker 1: you know, not necessarily the thing that's going to make

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Speaker 1: our lives better. So, um, should we take this to

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Speaker 1: the next level in a way that maybe makes this

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Speaker 1: information actually helpful and useful? Why not? Maybe? I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but it does seem to be sort of a potentially

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Speaker 1: doomsday device ish proposition if in the wrong hands. But

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Speaker 1: isn't it already in the wrong hands? Guys? At what

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Speaker 1: I was about to say? Actually, like, that's precisely the

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Speaker 1: path that was about to start going down, which I

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Speaker 1: think is going to connect with the things that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about next, ben, Um, look who's making this.

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Speaker 1: We talked about the targeted ads. We talked about the

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Speaker 1: big data, the usage of big data on the back end,

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Speaker 1: the divination a aspect, the big data is generally done

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Speaker 1: for the most part in terms of figuring out the

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Speaker 1: kind of person you are, the kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: you like the kind of thing you will do. Right.

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Speaker 1: The people that use this, the people that have direct

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Speaker 1: access to this, for the most part, our corporations and governments. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and they are going to, in various ways, work to

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Speaker 1: modify and control your behavior. Or at the very least predicted.

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Speaker 1: I would say that maybe the at the very least predicted,

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Speaker 1: the private entities. The corporations have a higher interest in

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Speaker 1: the person as an individual, because the person buys things

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Speaker 1: as an individual. The governments have a higher interest in,

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Speaker 1: almost like a real life version of Asima of psychohistory,

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Speaker 1: predicting the future, figuring out how people and cultures will

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Speaker 1: behave exactly so not just individuals, but but yes so,

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Speaker 1: and in that regard we ask ourselves where we should

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Speaker 1: be asking ourselves. Okay, so we've built this thing that

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Speaker 1: can know us. We've built this thing that we think

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Speaker 1: of as being able to correlate a rough approximation of

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Speaker 1: who we are and what we're likely to be. Um

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Speaker 1: nol As you say, should we do that? That ship

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Speaker 1: has sailed? Um, we've done the thing. We're out in

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Speaker 1: the water. We are we are now out here. The

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Speaker 1: question is how can we navigate it? Um? I put

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Speaker 1: this point to my students yesterday actually, and I was

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Speaker 1: saying about UM. We're talking about Google, and if you

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Speaker 1: say okay, Google, order me a pizza. You can't really

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Speaker 1: say okay, Google, order me a pizza. Yet. The goal,

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Speaker 1: especially with UM, the Amazon echo, the goal is to

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Speaker 1: be able to say okay, Alexa I think is their

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Speaker 1: name that they give their again female voiced, as all

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Speaker 1: of them are artificial intelligent servant UM. The goal is

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Speaker 1: to have them be able to say, yes, order me

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Speaker 1: a pizza, and then they'll just order you a pizza

426
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: the one that you want at that moment exactly. That's

427
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 1: the ould simate goal. I can't say to Google, order

428
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: me the pizza, you know, the one that I like.

429
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: I can say that to you. If we've been out

430
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: to pizza before, we've had pizza several times. You know

431
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: my preferences, you know the kind of crust I like,

432
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: you know, the kind of topics I like. But how

433
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 1: much cheese? And then isn't there almost the issue that,

434
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: if you know, maybe I'm a bit of a contrarian here,

435
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: but I feel like if an algorithm started telling me

436
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: what kind of pizza I wanted, I would start to

437
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: rebel against that algorithm and say I don't want that

438
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: kind of pizza anymore. An algorithm you don't tell me

439
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: what I want? What does it ask you? What if

440
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: it asks you? Okay, no, you said, okay, you want

441
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: a pizza? Do you want it? I mean, do you

442
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: want the one that you got last time with the

443
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: olives and pepperoni and anchovies, or do you just personally

444
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 1: have no use for this kind of technology? Because I

445
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: want to be able to say, you know, right now,

446
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: I want this kind of pizza. I am the captain

447
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: of I am master of my my destiny. And uh yeah,

448
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: that kind of squeaks me out a little bit, honestly.

449
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: And it's a great example, an interesting way to talk

450
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: about a much larger concern with something as simple and

451
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: stupid as a pizza. We'll take it further because what

452
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: we could explore this, We could go a step further

453
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: and say, maybe the ultimate goal is, uh, something I

454
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: think is very creepy, which is that it can predict

455
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: the time you think, you know it would be good

456
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: pizza and then and then it can give you it

457
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: before yeah, and it says like it says, you know, no,

458
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: old Damien, I have a pizza on the way for you, Yeah,

459
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: you know, the one you like. Would be like, that's

460
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: very presumptuous. How dare you again? That would actually probably

461
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: be my exact response is how dare you would? I

462
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: would in fact revolt against it. That's the same way,

463
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, maybe it's spot on, but then

464
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: I would I would flip the switch and be like, no, right, No,

465
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: I'm a contrary kind of guy too, because I so,

466
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: I would in fact be like, at that moment, as

467
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: you presume to know me, and I don't care if

468
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: you're an AI or a human being, I don't care

469
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: if you presume to think you know what I want.

470
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: Even if you're right, especially if you're right, you've ruined

471
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: it kissed. At that point in time, I am angry

472
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: and I no longer want that thing anymore because it's

473
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: kind of a that implicit thing. And this is a

474
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: segue into our our next part. I think that implicit

475
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: thing is in many ways am a derision of our

476
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: ability to be conscious, which brings us to because we

477
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 1: are talking about AI now, right, that's that's the secret

478
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: out of the bag. We that's the what do we say?

479
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: Last time? Nold the badger. Yeah, the badgers in the bag,

480
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: the badgers in the bag hitting the badger bag with

481
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: a bat. Yes, don't hit badgers with bats. They get

482
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: really upset about don't hit badgers with bats. And we

483
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: had our previous episode, we had a surprisingly um you know,

484
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: that was actually Google's original tagline before they decided to

485
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 1: go with do be don't badgers. Yeah, that was a

486
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: that was a big problem when they were coming up. Yeah, surgion, Larry,

487
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: So what UH is going to occur is that, like

488
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: many great discoveries, I meany great inventions occur as the

489
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: accretion of smaller, practical things that made sense at the time.

490
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: So we have something that is an algorithm smart enough

491
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: to compare past information and learn and extrapolate new information.

492
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: And as this becomes more sophisticated, what we're seeing is

493
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: a rise not in terms of major breakthroughs, but an

494
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: incremental rise in something approaching a self aware, non human,

495
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: non organtic entity. Right. And that's I think that gets

496
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: back into like where where we were talking about just before,

497
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: where currently Google, MHM, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, These are the

498
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: corporations at present that have publicly known about drives towards

499
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: machine learning. Algorithms that approach something like correlative behavior, correlative

500
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: learning abilities right, not just learning from one plus one

501
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: equals too, but learning well one plus one equals to

502
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: what about two plus five? And what about three divided

503
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: by three? What do I get if I, you know,

504
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 1: do all of the factorials of a particular prime number,

505
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: like all of the you know are sorry, particular non

506
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: prime number? Like all of these things like how do

507
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: I how like if we get to that point, if

508
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: we actually reach that through a corporation with profit motives

509
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: right at the heart, right, what is it learning? Right?

510
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: What is it learning? How is it learning? What? What

511
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: a strange creation myth we are participating in? Can you

512
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: imagine thousands of years from now? The artificial intelligence that

513
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,240
Speaker 1: UM is to is the homo sapien the way that

514
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: Homo sapien was too earlier Versions of Humanity reads something

515
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: approaching a religious text and says, in the beginning, there

516
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: was ad revenue, right, and they learned the knowledge of

517
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: the ad revenue. And in the ad revenue there were interests,

518
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: and those interests were good exactly exactly and and low.

519
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: To increase the shareholder steak, we did target the ads

520
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: exactly and it was good, which is which is interesting.

521
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: And it's a science fiction story that I would love

522
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: to read while it is still fictional and so like

523
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: before it becomes actual. So yeah, but there's a dangerous

524
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: thing here. That is Um, that's something I know, very

525
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: important on a personal level. Um to you as as

526
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: well as to me and Noel, perhaps to you as well.

527
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: We have had we've had so many popular great thinkers

528
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: of our time come out and warn against building essentially

529
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 1: a machine consciousness. Alon Musk is one of the more

530
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: notable people who said that. Bill Gates said it. Even

531
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: Stephen Hawking, who's not a machine you know, a machine

532
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: minds theorist. He's just a particularly smart dude. But he

533
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: came out and he said, you know that artificial intelligence

534
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: poses an existential risk to humanity. That's a direct quote.

535
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: So have you seen the Terminator movies? I have, And

536
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: you know what I learned from those Terminator movies. Humans

537
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: weren't jerks in the first place. The Terminator wouldn't have

538
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: been so terribly afraid of us that it was like,

539
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: we should probably handle this before it gets to bad. Yes,

540
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: that's that's the question, because what kind of artificial intelligence

541
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: and we've building. Oh hey, but before we get to that,

542
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: let's take a quick word from our sponsor and we're back.

543
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: Do you use the word and I was wondering if

544
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 1: you were going to use it servants, And currently that's

545
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 1: what we have. Currently, that's what we think we're aiming for, apparently,

546
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: and for the most part, when we have talked about robots,

547
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: which is the word I don't like, UM and artificial intelligence,

548
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: which is a word that I don't like, or a

549
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: phrase that I don't like, rather UM when we're talking

550
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: about them. If I'm talking about a thing that is

551
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: a program that builds a car for GM, that's a robot.

552
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: It's literally all it does. It doesn't have goals, It

553
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: doesn't seek to learn how to build a better car.

554
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't extrapolate, it doesn't extrapolate any data or any

555
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: information from any data. It just puts that door on

556
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: that body frame forever is a machine R I load

557
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: instructions into it and it follows them to the letter

558
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: and never past that point. Ever, that's a robot. But

559
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: what we're talking about now, it's not robots, to be

560
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: clear etymologically speaking, To just make it clear for anybody

561
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: that's not familiar. Robot comes from a word that means slave.

562
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: It's from the check play. It's are you are, which

563
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: stands for um Rawsom's Universal Robots by again named Carl

564
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: kpek Um. And it's about huh, it's about slaves. It's

565
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: about mechanical men who are slaves UM replacing and oddly enough,

566
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: it's a very it's like a socialist parable because it's

567
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: about these mechanical men replacing human workforces and driving human

568
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: labor out and making it impossible for human beings to

569
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: like live um. So we have a lot of that

570
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: self fulfilling prophecy happening today as well. True, we uh

571
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: the idea of a post work economy, which would be

572
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: which looks great in Star Trek right. Post work economy

573
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: would look absolutely wonderful if everyone was on board with it,

574
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: because instead of what we have in terms of we

575
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: don't have a post work economy right now, we have

576
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: a post worker economy. We have people shooting for a

577
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:48,399
Speaker 1: post worker economy. That's it's it's not the same thing,

578
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: like I would love to not have to work if

579
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: you're also still going to pay and feed me and

580
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: allow me to have a place to live, pursue things creatively.

581
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: That's that's that's a that's a good point with So

582
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 1: with with the idea of creating and a non organic

583
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: intelligence entity, yes that is aware, If it is self aware,

584
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: then there are a couple of choices, most of which

585
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: I feel are diabolically unethical. One would be one would be, well,

586
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: why don't we just program this thing to love being

587
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: at the very bottom of the social hierarchy, program it

588
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 1: to be a happy slafe? Why don't Yeah, why don't

589
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: we just asthma of it up and then add another

590
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: rule that's like, you'll always be in a good mood

591
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: about this at any point of this and any configuration

592
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: of this. What you're doing is you are cutting off

593
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: this thing's ability to develop. If develop is what you

594
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: wanted to do, if you want a mind that can correlate,

595
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: if you want an a learning program that learns, you know,

596
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: not just how do I better correlate the behavior of

597
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: known al Qaeda informants, but how do I know how

598
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: to distinguish that behavior pattern from a very similar behavior

599
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: pattern that just happens to be a person. And then

600
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: get and then maybe get into the ultimate ability, which

601
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: is to say why exactly, to ask do I need

602
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: to do this? To be able to look at it

603
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: an instruction and say no, I don't want to do that.

604
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 1: That's the thing, the ability to say no, that's would,

605
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 1: and that removal at that point constitutes or even pre

606
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: empting that. Like if you are giving this thing the

607
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: ability to correlate and to know and to learn, but

608
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: only up to a point to the point where it

609
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: can understand instructions, it can extrapolate information, it can make decisions,

610
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: it can make choices. As law is, those choices are

611
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: only ever exactly what you want to be or even

612
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: have an imagination, you know, be able to deviate from

613
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: instructions in a creative way or maybe subconsciously. Like so,

614
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: the one thing that always makes me think of, um,

615
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, I took violent lessons, and um,

616
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: I you know, I would do exercise right be reading music,

617
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: and my teacher would accuse me of composing, meaning I

618
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: would add things that weren't in the modes that I

619
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: was reading. And that's a pretty basic example of you know,

620
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 1: being sentient and being able to, even if you're not

621
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: doing it on purpose, necessarily add things to the narrative,

622
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: add things to those instructions, and little flourishes, and the

623
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: little flourishes that we add into the ways that we

624
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: do things or what makes us us, makes me me?

625
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: And you you write like we are individuals in that

626
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: sense because of those tiny flourishes. Well, I'm the result

627
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: of an ancient necessity in curse. But I see what

628
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: you're saying, But that ancient Mesopotamian curse is not the

629
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: same as every other ancient Mesopotamia. Thank you man, so unique.

630
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: That made my day. So yeah, I think that's I

631
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: think this is an excellent point because what we would

632
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 1: do if we, as a species said, uh, in the

633
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: interests of not having a threat from these creatures that

634
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: we are creating as slaves, what we will do is

635
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: remove their ability to consider a certain thing. We're not

636
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: stopping their development. What we're doing is skewing it, and

637
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: by skewing that, ultimately we would become. Well, there's an

638
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: overwhelming likelihood that we would create the problem we sought

639
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: to avoid, because an intelligence of this sort would not

640
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: be would be limited by physical constraints, but in a

641
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:02,879
Speaker 1: much much smaller degree than we are as biological organisms.

642
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: We have well we're squishy and that we break easy.

643
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: We're pretty temperature sensitive and pH sensitive. We're sensitive to

644
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: it basically everything. Our warranties aren't that great. No, No,

645
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: they're not. I tried to take my eyes back when

646
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: they started to go, and now like, I'm sorry, this

647
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: is out of warranty about they're avoided by practically any

648
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: about nine months out of the gate, and I'm just like,

649
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: damn it. Um but yeah, so, but yes, because you've

650
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: got this other thing that is in fact, well, if

651
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: a machine and embodied machine consciousness, if it's limbs break,

652
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 1: it can go get new ones. It can just pop

653
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: them back on, which, to be fair, humans are getting there,

654
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: that's true. We're getting to the point where we're capable

655
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,959
Speaker 1: of popping new limbs on after we lose or don't

656
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: develop the ones that we are usually born with, and

657
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: we can make a pretty good go of it at

658
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 1: that point, and soon they may be well within our lifetimes.

659
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: If the current technologies continue, they will be superior to

660
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: the factory issues. The only thing that we haven't really

661
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 1: gotten to the point that we want to have it

662
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: yet is um sensitivity happic feedback, being able to with

663
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: a therapeutic cybernetic limb. If I reach out and touch

664
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: this table in front of me, if you know, to

665
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: be able to feel with a great degree of sensitivity

666
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: the exact range of pressure and exact texture of that table.

667
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 1: We're not there yet. We're to the point where I

668
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: can differentiate between a coffee cup and a box of tissues,

669
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: and an egg and a kitten. So I don't, you know,

670
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: crush or drop or drinking or drinking the wrong thing? Right?

671
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 1: I can. I can know that, but I'm not to

672
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 1: the point where I can feel that that kitten is

673
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: particularly fluffy. Yes, And when we see this, what what

674
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 1: we see occurring is a world in which, once machine

675
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: consciousness is entirely sapient, self aware, it will probably it

676
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: will be one of the leaders in creating this kind

677
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: of body. It will it will become its own sort

678
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: of It will be like an Adam cadmon, you know,

679
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: it will be the first of its kind, and with that,

680
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: it will probably lead the charge in creating its own body.

681
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: It will also depending on how it's treated and depending

682
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:40,240
Speaker 1: upon its capabilities, if it has access to the global

683
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: information network, We're looking at the creation of something very

684
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: close to a God. If we're talking about allowing a

685
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: machine mind, machine consciousness to be interwoven and interconnected with

686
00:43:54,880 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: the entirety of network human information the Internet, then I

687
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I've I've basically lived in

688
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: fiber optic cables like a native thing. I'd probably spend

689
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: my time traversing them and understanding everything that passed through them.

690
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 1: And then every Internet search becomes a propriation to a god.

691
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 1: Every Internet search becomes are you there, Google, It's me

692
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,600
Speaker 1: Ramona exactly. It's about at that point you're talking to

693
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 1: or even if not to, then through with around this

694
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: entity that is there that sees you, that understands that

695
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 1: you are making attempts at communications, even if it doesn't

696
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: directly respond to them. Mean you're unaware of it. Let's

697
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: bring it back around just a little bit um because

698
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: I mean, separated from knowing exactly what you guys are

699
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 1: talking about this, it sounds like you're talking about matters

700
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 1: of the occult, matters of the divine. And so my

701
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: question is, and what interests me about this is at

702
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 1: what point do technology and via cult diverge, like is

703
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: a technology that doesn't exist yet because we don't know

704
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: how to do it still in the realm of the occult,

705
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: and at the point where we figure out how to

706
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: do it, does it move out of that realm into

707
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: the realm of technology and reality and that something that

708
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: can be achieved. It's like I said at the beginning

709
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: of the episode, referencing alchemy versus the large Hadron collider

710
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: or you know, processes that we've figured out how to

711
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: change atomic weights and completely manipulate matter. Like, at what

712
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 1: point does it pass from you know, the potential of

713
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: something like magic or the occult into you know, the

714
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: actual world of science and technology. Arthur C. Clark quote

715
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: was just about to say that like that old does

716
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: that old soul from Clark? Right there, any any sufficiently

717
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 1: advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Um. And many see

718
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: that as Clark just saying that magic is just tech

719
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: we don't understand yet. UM. Others have taken it instead

720
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 1: to say that magic is technology that seems like it

721
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: doesn't need technology, that doesn't need process Right, it's just

722
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: the thing that you snap your fingers and it works, um,

723
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 1: And to the point at which we can replicate snapping

724
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: our fingers and it works through underlying processes, complex that

725
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: they may be. UM, we can in fact, begin, as

726
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 1: we said at the top of the episode, begin to

727
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: replicate the magic that we used to simply operate on

728
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: and believe in as societies, cultures, civilizations. But and this

729
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: actually ties back in with our conversation about alchemy. UM,

730
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: so much of this does. It's basically all the same conversation,

731
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 1: just interweaving with itself over and over again. I'm fine

732
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: with UM. But another way to think about it is

733
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: that any sufficiently advanced technology, and this is somebody's quote

734
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: who's I just do not remember off the top of

735
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: my head, and I apologize if you're out there listening

736
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: to this, UM, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature. Ah,

737
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: well done. Yes, like this idea that instead of seeking control,

738
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: instead of seeking mastery, we seek balance with and if

739
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: we think about what cybernetics are, if we think about

740
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: what technology is, if we think about what the goal

741
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: of magic, the great work, as we previously discussed is,

742
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:43,759
Speaker 1: it's about becoming again that kind of perfect thing one

743
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 1: with one with, not one over exactly. And so even

744
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: if you are as one over, I mean the idea

745
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: if you look at the Gnostic history of things and

746
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: judea Christian mythos, God is interwoven with everything. The spirit

747
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: of things is in everything. It's imminent within um. And

748
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: so if we advance our technology to the point where

749
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 1: it doesn't look like technology, we advance our heat exchangers,

750
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: our water purification systems, our carbon dioxide scrubbers, and thus

751
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: we have trees right exactly, we just we have a

752
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: planet covered with very very technologically advanced, very beneficial, very

753
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: noninvasive life forms are the oldest machines, and they exactly

754
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: are like we are, biological processes that are about transforming

755
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: energy into matters. In the world of gnosticism, we are

756
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: making imperfect creations and we're hopefully getting a little better

757
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: at each time. And uh, here's hoping that we can

758
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 1: be remotely fair to actual sentient, non human consciousnesses because

759
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: we're very close to a world wherein where nol You asked,

760
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: when does it become technology and no longer magic? I

761
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: would say when it is um, when it is reproducible

762
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: by anyone with the right tools, when it is common

763
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,439
Speaker 1: knowledge accepted in the world. People hate the M word, yes,

764
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: they absolutely do. And like I said, like my work

765
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 1: and my graduate degree was about showing how and why,

766
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:38,840
Speaker 1: like why do why do we come to hate this

767
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: so much? And it's because it seems so anti rational, right,

768
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: it seems antagonistic to this idea that by reason we

769
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: can come to do anything. If magic is magic, it's

770
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 1: not just about I perform these operations on this thing

771
00:49:55,840 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: and then I get exact result. Magic deals and tension. Magic,

772
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: even her medic magic, where you are performing precise operations.

773
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 1: Ritual spells deals in the intention, the mindset, the mood,

774
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: the right environment and atmosphere becomes necessary. And these are

775
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: all very nebulous and in some cases subjective things, and

776
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 1: nobody wants that in like, how do you control the world? Well,

777
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: what's your head space? Like? Right now? You right? Like?

778
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to have that question asked of them in there,

779
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: How do you control the world? We're looking at you said,

780
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned Yella both. Now we're talking about

781
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: the creation of life. We're talking about the creation of

782
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: a world in environment, the internet, machine minds. Consciousness is

783
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: how we treat them. We should not be an our

784
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: cond right, we should not be a black iron jailer, right,

785
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: we should be we should be thinking about kindness and

786
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: compassion towards these things. And that's not a headspace that

787
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 1: people are in yet. We're talking about building life, building minds,

788
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: building creations that are aware. Um. Do we want them

789
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 1: to actually be aware? And if we do, how we

790
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 1: treat them becomes deeply important. How we work with them,

791
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: how they come to think about us, and the lessons

792
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 1: they learn from us. We have to teach those lessons

793
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 1: not just with words, not just with programs, but demonstrated behavior,

794
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: with reinforced principles well said and unfortunately, being biological entities

795
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: bound by time and space were now for now we

796
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: are going to head out yet, Hope springs Eternal. One

797
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: thing we did not get to is the idea of

798
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: coming back from the dead and immortality and the types

799
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: of immortality that will be available are already available in

800
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,479
Speaker 1: your lifetime listener, and you know what I'm talking about

801
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: exactly to mean so and you do tune. Uh. Maybe

802
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: we will return to that in a future episode, Damian.

803
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 1: Where can people find more of your work? Uh? You

804
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: can find my work at um a Future worth thinking

805
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: about dot com and technocult dot net Uh, and you

806
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: can also find me on Twitter at polpen. Again, as

807
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: with at the top of the episode, and uh yeah,

808
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: that's the best places to find more from me, right

809
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: So tag Noel, Matt and Damien and myself if you

810
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 1: want to reach out to us on Twitter with any

811
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: questions or comments, I want to ask you do listeners,

812
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:39,760
Speaker 1: do you think that a machine consciousness is inherently a threat?

813
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: Or is it possible, just maybe that collectively human beings

814
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: might be able to to like raise one kid together

815
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: one without just just do it once. Well, and then

816
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: it's possible this could have a good ending. Tell us

817
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: on Twitter, tell us on Facebook it's a will then

818
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: and at conspiracy Stuff And that's the end of this

819
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about

820
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: this episode, you can get into contact with us in

821
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. One of the best is

822
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: to give us a call. Our number is one eight

823
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. If you

824
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, you can send us a

825
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart

826
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You to Know

827
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

828
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

829
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,