WEBVTT - Malcolm on No Small Endeavor 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:21.516 Bushkin. Hello, Hello, Malcolm. Here today we're sharing something a 0:00:21.556 --> 0:00:24.396 little different on revisionist history. I'm bringing you back in 0:00:24.476 --> 0:00:28.436 time to my beginnings. I'm sharing an episode of the 0:00:28.516 --> 0:00:32.316 acclaim podcast No Small Endeavor, where I sat down with 0:00:32.316 --> 0:00:36.236 my friend, the host and award winning theologian Lee Camp 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:39.916 to discuss some of my most cherished moments in my 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:43.596 journey thus far. Produced by Great Fielding Studios and p 0:00:43.796 --> 0:00:47.796 r X, No Small Endeavor brings you thoughtful conversations with 0:00:47.916 --> 0:00:52.676 best selling authors, artists, theologians and philosophers like Hollywood legend 0:00:52.756 --> 0:00:57.076 Rob Reiner and civil rights hero Reverend James Lawson about 0:00:57.076 --> 0:01:00.756 what it means to live a good life. In my episode, 0:01:00.876 --> 0:01:04.196 we discuss some of my favorite stories, from receiving permission 0:01:04.196 --> 0:01:07.116 from my mother to cut class, spending three days a 0:01:07.156 --> 0:01:09.876 week in Freudian therapy as a young adult, all of 0:01:09.916 --> 0:01:13.236 which contributed to who I am today. Be sure to 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:17.076 check out No Small Endeavor wherever you get podcasts and 0:01:17.116 --> 0:01:20.916 tell them I say hello, and without further ado, here 0:01:21.036 --> 0:01:22.876 is the full episode. 0:01:25.596 --> 0:01:28.796 I'm Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor 0:01:28.836 --> 0:01:34.276 exploring what it means to live a good life. You're 0:01:34.316 --> 0:01:37.316 probably familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell. Perhaps you've 0:01:37.316 --> 0:01:39.316 read one of his New York Times bestselling books like 0:01:39.356 --> 0:01:42.356 The Tipping Point or Outliers, or maybe you listen to 0:01:42.396 --> 0:01:46.236 Malcolm's podcast or Visionist History. But how well do you 0:01:46.276 --> 0:01:47.356 know the man himself? 0:01:47.716 --> 0:01:49.356 There's a pear in my life where I spent a 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:51.676 huge amount of time in Freudian therapy. 0:01:52.316 --> 0:01:55.796 Today we learn what made Malcolm malcolm like, what pushed 0:01:55.876 --> 0:01:58.356 him to get really good at explaining things. 0:01:58.596 --> 0:02:03.196 My father and my brothers were incapable of explaining. 0:02:02.676 --> 0:02:06.636 Things, or how his dad influenced his curiosity. 0:02:07.116 --> 0:02:09.916 My whole childhood was spent listening to my father meet 0:02:09.956 --> 0:02:13.956 random strangers and him asking them questions. He had no 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:18.836 insecurities about declaring himself ignorant in. 0:02:18.836 --> 0:02:27.956 An area all coming right up, I'm leasey camp. This 0:02:28.036 --> 0:02:30.716 is no small endeavor exploring what it means to live 0:02:30.996 --> 0:02:36.556 a good life. There's a fascinating scene in the TV 0:02:36.636 --> 0:02:39.996 show Ted Lasso where Ted makes a huge bet on 0:02:40.076 --> 0:02:42.396 a game of darts to help out a friend. His 0:02:42.516 --> 0:02:46.276 opponent assumes Ted knows nothing about the game as Ted 0:02:46.356 --> 0:02:49.436 makes a few less than excellent throws with his right hand. 0:02:49.796 --> 0:02:52.116 But that's when Ted reveals that he's not right handed 0:02:52.156 --> 0:02:54.556 and hits a bull's eye with his left and while 0:02:54.596 --> 0:02:58.196 Ted is hustling his opponent, he says, guys have been 0:02:58.276 --> 0:03:02.236 underestimating me my entire life. But he continues that he'd 0:03:02.276 --> 0:03:05.436 come to realize that they're underestimating him had nothing to 0:03:05.476 --> 0:03:09.756 do with him, but rather them. They had failed, says Ted, 0:03:10.236 --> 0:03:14.916 to practice that wisdom be curious, not judgmental, and just 0:03:14.956 --> 0:03:17.916 before he clinches the wind, Ted says that if they 0:03:17.956 --> 0:03:20.436 were curious, they would have known that he played darts 0:03:20.476 --> 0:03:23.436 every Sunday with his father from age ten until he 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:27.236 was sixteen, when his father passed away. It's one of 0:03:27.236 --> 0:03:29.996 the great moments of television, in this poignant moment of 0:03:30.116 --> 0:03:34.836 character development, granting insight that reveals new depth, new dimensions. 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:39.436 This fundamental posture to be curious not judgmental allows us 0:03:39.436 --> 0:03:41.796 to ask good questions and thereby get a glimpse into 0:03:41.836 --> 0:03:45.116 the fascinating journeys which have led another to become the 0:03:45.116 --> 0:03:47.516 person they are. We try to do this in some 0:03:47.596 --> 0:03:50.196 way with all of our guests, but our interview today 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:53.756 is an especially such poignant moment. You may think you 0:03:53.796 --> 0:03:56.796 know Malcolm Gladwell New York Times bestselling author of Outliers, 0:03:56.836 --> 0:03:59.956 The Tipping Point Blink, host of the wildly popular podcast 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:02.876 Revisionist History, and when I first began to prepare for 0:04:02.916 --> 0:04:05.476 my time with Malcolm, I was first drawn into curiosity 0:04:05.916 --> 0:04:08.676 about the stories Malcolm tells so well. But then I 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:11.876 began to note the tendencies and habits and traits Malcolm 0:04:11.876 --> 0:04:14.956 exhibits in his storytelling, and that made me curious about 0:04:14.996 --> 0:04:19.436 why Malcolm is Malcolm, How his family's inability to explain 0:04:19.516 --> 0:04:22.356 things made him want to explain things, How his dad 0:04:22.396 --> 0:04:24.876 taking him to a Mennonite barn raising as a kid 0:04:24.916 --> 0:04:27.796 influenced what he thought was possible and what regrets he 0:04:27.876 --> 0:04:30.876 may or may not have, including a year of Freudyent 0:04:31.036 --> 0:04:34.276 therapy three times a week in New York City. Today, 0:04:34.316 --> 0:04:36.916 our conversation with Malcolm Gladwell taped in front of a 0:04:36.956 --> 0:04:40.756 small audience in Nashville, days before our annual Thanksgiving show 0:04:41.076 --> 0:04:47.276 at Nashville's Skirmerhorn Symphony Hall, where Malcolm headlined Enjoy Malcolm. 0:04:47.356 --> 0:04:51.356 Timothy Gladwell, Canadian journalist and author's been a staff writer 0:04:51.436 --> 0:04:54.396 for the New Yorker since nineteen ninety six, wrote for 0:04:54.436 --> 0:04:58.396 The Washington Post for ten years. Malcolm has published seven 0:04:58.436 --> 0:05:02.916 books with at least five New York Times bestsellers. Appointed 0:05:02.956 --> 0:05:06.596 to the Order of Canada in twenty eleven, and he 0:05:06.676 --> 0:05:10.396 is the host of the podcast Revisionist History. Please make welcome, 0:05:10.716 --> 0:05:19.676 Malcolm Badwell, Welcome to Nashville again. 0:05:20.236 --> 0:05:20.556 Thank you. 0:05:20.876 --> 0:05:23.916 Good to have you back here in music City. I 0:05:23.996 --> 0:05:28.796 understand that you've at least had a number of entertaining episodes, 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:32.116 certainly those of us who've listened to your podcast a 0:05:32.156 --> 0:05:38.076 good bit, no fascinating conversations with fascinating Nashvillians. But you recently, 0:05:38.876 --> 0:05:41.676 like today, told me a very entertaining story about a 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:44.676 Nashville experience that you once had that seems classic Nashville 0:05:44.716 --> 0:05:46.156 to me. And you were running. 0:05:47.516 --> 0:05:50.396 I went running. This is actually now only that I 0:05:50.476 --> 0:05:52.636 reflect on it after talking to you about it. I 0:05:52.676 --> 0:05:55.356 think this is the perfect national story. Yes, if that 0:05:55.396 --> 0:05:56.596 doesn't raise the bar too high. 0:05:56.636 --> 0:05:58.516 Yeah, yeah, I'm. 0:05:58.316 --> 0:06:00.316 A runner and I everyone tells me I got a 0:06:00.356 --> 0:06:03.076 run in Percy Warner Park, so make my way out there, 0:06:03.676 --> 0:06:06.556 get stuck in traffic, get there a little late. 0:06:07.156 --> 0:06:09.036 So far it is the perfect Nashville story. 0:06:09.196 --> 0:06:15.196 Yeah, it's I think it's July. It's probably ninety some 0:06:15.276 --> 0:06:20.516 odd superhuman, still the perfect natural story. And I decide 0:06:20.556 --> 0:06:24.596 it's too hot to go running with my T shirt, 0:06:24.836 --> 0:06:27.236 so I just wear a per of shorts, which you 0:06:27.236 --> 0:06:27.996 could do, right. 0:06:28.636 --> 0:06:30.676 I go running, which you can do, which I can do. 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:33.876 So I go off and I climb that big road. 0:06:33.916 --> 0:06:36.956 I'm going around Percy Water Park and it's a little late. 0:06:36.996 --> 0:06:38.276 It starts to get a little dark, but I think 0:06:38.316 --> 0:06:42.196 I'm fine, but I get lost, not just mildly lost, 0:06:42.236 --> 0:06:45.676 like completely one hundred percent. I have no idea where 0:06:45.676 --> 0:06:48.476 I am. I can't see any lights. I don't know 0:06:48.636 --> 0:06:52.036 what am I gonna do. So I'm drenched in sweat 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:54.516 and I'm just wearing a pair of shorts, and I 0:06:54.716 --> 0:06:59.076 stand by the side the road and I hitchhike. Big 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:02.716 beefy guys in like four f one fifties, don't stop, 0:07:02.916 --> 0:07:08.316 take one look at me. There's no part of it. Finally, 0:07:08.676 --> 0:07:10.196 a girl, and I say a girl, because she was 0:07:10.236 --> 0:07:14.836 probably in her early twenties, little battered hond Accourt stops 0:07:14.916 --> 0:07:17.516 rolled down the window. Can I help you, sir? And 0:07:17.596 --> 0:07:20.556 I said, first of all, you should not be picking 0:07:20.596 --> 0:07:20.836 me up. 0:07:21.116 --> 0:07:21.556 You're not. 0:07:22.996 --> 0:07:26.036 What are you doing that? Strange dude? In the middle 0:07:26.036 --> 0:07:28.916 of the night, drenched in sweat. But I get in 0:07:29.156 --> 0:07:31.516 and I said, why did you do that? And she said, well, 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:35.996 I was coming from Bible study, and today we studied 0:07:35.996 --> 0:07:36.996 the story of the Good Smear. 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:44.396 As a boy, you lived in like three countries, at 0:07:44.476 --> 0:07:46.116 least briefly. Is that what I understand? 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.836 Born in England, spend a lot sometime in Jamaic, my 0:07:48.876 --> 0:07:52.476 mom's Jamaica, and then we moved to Canada, and then 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:53.556 I came down here. 0:07:53.676 --> 0:07:57.036 So your father's Englishman, My. 0:07:57.076 --> 0:08:00.076 Dad is an Englishman, my mom's They met in college 0:08:01.116 --> 0:08:02.876 University College, London in the fifties. 0:08:04.756 --> 0:08:07.396 You have many memories of Jamaica at all. 0:08:08.036 --> 0:08:11.516 Well, we would go there regularly when I was growing up, 0:08:11.796 --> 0:08:15.796 and so eventually most of my family there have moved 0:08:15.836 --> 0:08:19.916 to Canada and the US. But as a kid, yeah, yeah, 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:20.236 we were. 0:08:20.556 --> 0:08:24.996 Yeah, all of those experiences. What do you think that 0:08:25.036 --> 0:08:27.956 did for your just sense of self or sense of identity. 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:33.156 Well, I'm a strong believer in the idea that we 0:08:33.276 --> 0:08:40.396 have multiple identities and that we have the right to 0:08:41.876 --> 0:08:45.156 rank them in the order that we choose. One of 0:08:45.156 --> 0:08:46.836 the things that irritates me about the world is that 0:08:46.836 --> 0:08:49.396 the world sometimes chooses for you how to rank your 0:08:49.396 --> 0:08:52.636 own identities. I always think of my mom, who to 0:08:52.676 --> 0:08:56.636 give you For example, my mom is a a black woman, 0:08:57.196 --> 0:09:02.236 a Jamaican, a woman, a Christian, a therapist, a writer, 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:08.716 a mother, and a wife, and a Canadian. I mean 0:09:08.716 --> 0:09:12.196 I going I would say that over the course of 0:09:12.276 --> 0:09:14.876 her life, the way she ranks all of those identities 0:09:14.876 --> 0:09:18.876 has changed, and I think it constantly changes. And I 0:09:18.876 --> 0:09:21.316 think she's ninety two, I think they may change again. 0:09:21.956 --> 0:09:24.076 But like the world, you know, various people in the 0:09:24.076 --> 0:09:26.316 world would look at her and say she maybe she's 0:09:26.396 --> 0:09:27.956 number one a black women, and she would say, I 0:09:27.996 --> 0:09:30.116 don't know. I might have been number one a black 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:33.796 women when I was twenty three and in England for 0:09:33.796 --> 0:09:37.196 the first time and being treated like, you know, less 0:09:37.276 --> 0:09:39.996 than a full person, but I don't haven't been treated 0:09:39.996 --> 0:09:42.516 that way in thirty years. Why should I foreground that 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:47.396 identity anyway? That idea that there are many parts of 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:50.756 us and we get to choose which part is most 0:09:50.796 --> 0:09:53.556 important is I think that's what I picked up from 0:09:54.436 --> 0:10:00.596 all of those kind of shifting situation's environments when I 0:10:00.636 --> 0:10:01.076 was a kid. 0:10:02.756 --> 0:10:08.036 So two finow up questions on that one we unpack more. 0:10:08.716 --> 0:10:11.156 Why that sharply irritates you. 0:10:13.076 --> 0:10:16.716 Well, because it diminishes. When we do that to people, 0:10:16.756 --> 0:10:22.116 we diminish their humanity, and we presume to understand them 0:10:22.116 --> 0:10:27.076 when in fact we don't. And so I had said, 0:10:27.116 --> 0:10:29.716 did I get in trouble? I have part of a company, 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:32.756 and we have these company meetings every now and again. 0:10:33.556 --> 0:10:35.836 I did it and asked me anything with the staff, 0:10:36.476 --> 0:10:40.556 and someone's asked, in a relatively hostile way, did I 0:10:40.596 --> 0:10:46.396 think the company was sufficiently diverse? And I said two 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:50.396 things in response. One is, don't I count? And the 0:10:50.396 --> 0:10:52.836 second thing I said, Well, I said to the whole staff, 0:10:53.116 --> 0:10:55.316 if any of you is a Republican, raised your hand, 0:10:55.476 --> 0:10:57.996 and no one did. And I said, well, if we're 0:10:58.036 --> 0:11:00.236 going to call ourselves a diverse company, shouldn't we have 0:11:00.276 --> 0:11:04.876 some Republicans. Now this was treated like I had said 0:11:04.916 --> 0:11:09.916 some terrible thing. I'm serious. I mean, my definition of 0:11:09.916 --> 0:11:16.996 diversity encompasses a dozen different dimensions of human complexity, and 0:11:17.036 --> 0:11:20.116 I think I actually value diversity very I take it 0:11:20.236 --> 0:11:22.676 very seriously. And the book I'm reading right now has 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:26.596 a lot about diversity. But my definition of diversity is broad. 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:31.116 If I had my way, we would have more of 0:11:31.156 --> 0:11:32.996 every kind of person, and we would be a richer 0:11:33.036 --> 0:11:36.236 place for it. And I object to a definition of 0:11:36.276 --> 0:11:40.276 diversity that's super narrow. And that's why this is a 0:11:40.356 --> 0:11:41.836 kind of top of mind. 0:11:41.636 --> 0:11:45.516 Issue for Yeah. So back to your childhood and you 0:11:45.556 --> 0:11:49.316 said that you think that that experience allows you to 0:11:49.676 --> 0:11:54.356 begin to pay attention to multiplicity of identities and the 0:11:54.356 --> 0:11:57.636 possibility of ranking those when you look back at that 0:11:58.436 --> 0:12:02.276 young Malcolm, what were some of the key identities for 0:12:02.436 --> 0:12:05.436 him at that time being raised in Canada. 0:12:07.156 --> 0:12:12.436 Well, so I'll tell you other story. My dad, who 0:12:12.476 --> 0:12:14.756 passed sadly a few years ago, but who was a 0:12:15.476 --> 0:12:20.676 marvelously independent minded man, a big beard. He was a mathematician, 0:12:21.036 --> 0:12:22.636 and he al was dressed in a suit and a 0:12:22.716 --> 0:12:24.956 tie even when he was gardening, which. 0:12:24.756 --> 0:12:27.876 Is his favorite thing. But he was an Englishman. 0:12:28.276 --> 0:12:30.396 He was an Englishman, took it very seriously, but he 0:12:30.436 --> 0:12:33.796 loved we lived in this Mennonite community. He loved the 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:37.836 Mennonites and was sort of thought everything they did was 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:40.156 kind of fascinating him. And they used to have barn raisings. 0:12:40.156 --> 0:12:42.716 When a barn burned down, they would all gather. These 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:45.956 are mostly conservative Menonites, so people who drove horses and buggies. 0:12:46.396 --> 0:12:49.076 They would all gather, they would get together, like the 0:12:49.116 --> 0:12:52.836 next weekend, hundreds of them. They would descend on that 0:12:53.076 --> 0:12:56.476 farm and they would rebuild the barn in essentially a 0:12:56.556 --> 0:13:00.276 day right famous barn raising. My dad decided when I 0:13:00.316 --> 0:13:03.356 was a kid once that he would attend a barn raising. So, 0:13:03.876 --> 0:13:07.236 if you can imagine, we drove you off into the 0:13:07.276 --> 0:13:08.716 middle of the countryside in our. 0:13:09.156 --> 0:13:12.036 Involv of course, and he's not a Mennonite, no, he's. 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:14.916 A Presbyterian with a big beard, in an English accent 0:13:15.756 --> 0:13:17.916 and wearing a suit and die. So we get in 0:13:17.996 --> 0:13:20.916 our volvo and he shows up and everyone else's bandies 0:13:20.956 --> 0:13:24.356 are clean shaven, and they're all wearing black cloth garments, 0:13:24.716 --> 0:13:26.476 and they have their horses and buggies out front, and 0:13:26.516 --> 0:13:28.396 they all go to the same church, and they all 0:13:28.436 --> 0:13:31.996 know each other. And this englishman with a PhD in 0:13:32.036 --> 0:13:36.196 advanced mathematics shows up in his volvo with his three 0:13:36.196 --> 0:13:40.596 sons in tow and announces he'd like to join right now. 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:42.756 They were fine with it. They gave him stuff to 0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:44.396 do and blah blah blah. But my point is my 0:13:44.436 --> 0:13:47.116 dad was the kind of person who it never occurred 0:13:47.156 --> 0:13:51.996 to him that that was a socially awkward thing to do. 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:56.436 It just didn't occur to him. He was like, I'm 0:13:56.516 --> 0:13:59.876 your neighbor. I live down the road, I know some 0:13:59.956 --> 0:14:03.436 of you. I love farming. He wanted to be a farmer. 0:14:03.556 --> 0:14:06.396 I mean, there was no part of him. You know, 0:14:06.436 --> 0:14:07.556 he believed in the same god. 0:14:07.956 --> 0:14:08.156 God. 0:14:08.196 --> 0:14:10.356 What does the Bible say, It says help your neighbor. 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:13.716 So he was there, right, that's the sort of that's 0:14:13.716 --> 0:14:15.676 what I grew up with. Now would I do that, 0:14:15.716 --> 0:14:22.196 Probably not. But it's incredibly powerful influence on you to 0:14:22.316 --> 0:14:25.636 have as a father someone who does that without even 0:14:25.796 --> 0:14:27.796 thinking about it. I mean he never even discussed it 0:14:27.836 --> 0:14:31.716 with it. He just like, we're going get in and 0:14:32.036 --> 0:14:33.996 came back and thought it was like the best experience. 0:14:35.036 --> 0:14:38.156 So were you bookish as a boy? 0:14:39.276 --> 0:14:43.876 I was. I would my father would take me, take 0:14:43.916 --> 0:14:46.676 me out of school and take me to university and 0:14:46.756 --> 0:14:50.716 just deposit me in the library. And it was the happiest. 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:53.676 It was like, those are my happiest child of memories 0:14:53.676 --> 0:14:56.196 are playing hooky. It wasn't hooky. What do you call it? 0:14:56.236 --> 0:14:59.516 When you are it's being done with your parents' consent. 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:01.636 I don't know what that is. But it was parental 0:15:01.676 --> 0:15:05.476 hooky that we played. And I would just wander around 0:15:05.476 --> 0:15:08.236 the university library well you know, be ten or eleven, huh, 0:15:08.276 --> 0:15:10.356 And and then i'd have, you know, I have lunch 0:15:10.396 --> 0:15:12.996 with him and have a hamburger in the cafeterias. Fantastic, 0:15:13.116 --> 0:15:14.276 never had hamburgers at home. 0:15:14.996 --> 0:15:16.956 I think I heard you saying some interview that maybe 0:15:16.956 --> 0:15:18.596 your mother would sign. 0:15:18.956 --> 0:15:22.916 That was later. My mom then became deeply complicit in 0:15:22.956 --> 0:15:27.356 my truancy. She understood that I was going to seek 0:15:27.596 --> 0:15:31.596 to rebel as a teenager, and so she decided what 0:15:31.596 --> 0:15:34.196 she would do is just anticipate it and meet me there. 0:15:34.756 --> 0:15:37.476 So she at one point, when she saw that I 0:15:37.516 --> 0:15:39.956 wasn't that interested in going to school, she would write 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:43.716 notes Malcolm is sick today, can in school and leave 0:15:43.716 --> 0:15:46.676 the date blank and just give me a bunch of them. 0:15:46.876 --> 0:15:51.956 Amazing in retrospect, so genius, Like how do you rebel 0:15:51.996 --> 0:15:55.836 against that? She's like, she's like already signed off on it, 0:15:55.956 --> 0:15:57.156 you know, like it's fine. 0:15:57.196 --> 0:15:59.956 Whatever did you rebel as a teenager? No? 0:16:00.196 --> 0:16:07.076 How could I? My mother foreclosed out responsibility that avenue I. 0:16:07.116 --> 0:16:09.556 Were to think of one or two words and thinking 0:16:09.556 --> 0:16:11.756 about the kind of work you do. I think curiosity 0:16:11.756 --> 0:16:14.596 would be certainly high on the list. Or do you 0:16:14.636 --> 0:16:16.196 see that coming from your childhood? 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:21.956 Well, I'm going to talk to my dad again. He 0:16:22.236 --> 0:16:25.956 was deep. I realized. It took me a long time 0:16:25.956 --> 0:16:30.156 to realize this was unusual in someone. But in his 0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:35.356 obituary I wrote that he considered him himself an expert 0:16:35.396 --> 0:16:43.036 in only three things mathematics, gardening, and the Bible, and 0:16:43.076 --> 0:16:46.156 on everything else he was open to suggestion, and that 0:16:46.276 --> 0:16:50.156 was really his position. That he just assumed if he 0:16:50.196 --> 0:16:52.996 met someone that they knew more than he did on 0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:57.356 their subjects of chosen of choice, and that he should 0:16:57.556 --> 0:17:02.876 just ask questions and learn. And my whole childhood was 0:17:02.916 --> 0:17:06.196 spent listening to my father meet random strangers figure out 0:17:06.236 --> 0:17:10.716 what areas they knew more about than he did, and 0:17:10.916 --> 0:17:13.556 him asking them questions. I thought that was normal. I 0:17:13.636 --> 0:17:16.356 discovered later that that's not normal. But so I had 0:17:16.356 --> 0:17:18.436 a kind of model of this kind of extreme and 0:17:18.476 --> 0:17:20.796 a lot of it was grounded in He had no 0:17:21.396 --> 0:17:27.196 insecurities about declaring himself ignorant in an area. I didn't 0:17:27.196 --> 0:17:28.756 have a problem with that. It's like, oh, I don't 0:17:28.756 --> 0:17:30.676 want to go with that. Right, even on things he 0:17:30.756 --> 0:17:33.996 knew a lot about. If he met a theologian, he 0:17:33.996 --> 0:17:35.956 wouldn't even pretend to know more about them than the 0:17:35.956 --> 0:17:39.156 Bible or gardening. If he thought that, you know more 0:17:39.196 --> 0:17:42.756 about Delphinians and he did it all ears, let's go. 0:17:43.276 --> 0:17:46.956 It's a kind of extreme version of curiosity. Again, I 0:17:46.996 --> 0:17:48.876 don't think I can match that, but it's a really 0:17:48.916 --> 0:17:51.836 powerful model to be given as a kid. 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:56.436 How do you think the virtue of humility? I mean, 0:17:56.436 --> 0:17:58.836 I would as sen there's like almost a direct correlation 0:17:59.076 --> 0:18:02.476 or causative effect between humility and curiosity. But how do 0:18:02.516 --> 0:18:04.116 you think about that? Oh? 0:18:04.116 --> 0:18:05.396 I do think I agree, I would agree to that. 0:18:05.396 --> 0:18:09.036 I would think it's impossible without having It's odd though, 0:18:09.236 --> 0:18:12.436 So there's two parts of it. One is humility that 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:16.116 you don't presume that you know things you don't know. 0:18:16.636 --> 0:18:18.396 But you also have to have a lot of self 0:18:18.436 --> 0:18:25.476 confidence because you have to be completely indifferent to the 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:28.476 consequences of letting the world know about what you don't know. 0:18:29.276 --> 0:18:31.076 You do not care, right, And my dad was a 0:18:31.156 --> 0:18:35.396 supremely self confident person. So that allowed him, I think, 0:18:35.476 --> 0:18:38.876 to to kind of expose himself in this way. Is 0:18:39.196 --> 0:18:40.996 as being you know he didn't have any kind of 0:18:41.236 --> 0:18:45.116 hang up most people. The real reason people aren't curious, 0:18:45.156 --> 0:18:47.276 I think is not so much that they lack humility, 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:50.876 but that they lack confidence and they're not willing to 0:18:50.956 --> 0:18:54.116 kind of show themselves to the world as not knowing things. 0:19:06.836 --> 0:19:09.316 You're listening to No Small Endeavor in a conversation with 0:19:09.356 --> 0:19:12.476 Malcolm Gladwell, I love hearing from you. Tell us what 0:19:12.516 --> 0:19:14.956 you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us 0:19:14.956 --> 0:19:17.636 feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at Lee 0:19:17.956 --> 0:19:21.956 at No Small Endeavor dot com. Recently, for example, received 0:19:21.956 --> 0:19:24.596 a lovely email from Anna Wildey, writing in from New 0:19:24.676 --> 0:19:28.196 Zealand retired teacher of literacy, Miss Wilde, It's so very 0:19:28.236 --> 0:19:30.756 nice to have you joining us. You can get show 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:33.276 notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever 0:19:33.276 --> 0:19:36.236 you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in 0:19:36.276 --> 0:19:39.196 this episode, as well as a PDF of my complete 0:19:39.196 --> 0:19:42.676 interview notes and a full transcript. We would be most 0:19:42.676 --> 0:19:45.196 delighted if you tell your friends about No Small Endeavor 0:19:45.236 --> 0:19:47.876 and invite them to join us on the podcast, because 0:19:47.876 --> 0:19:50.156 it helps extend the reach of the beauty, truth, and 0:19:50.156 --> 0:19:53.796 goodness we are seeking to sew in the world. Also, 0:19:54.156 --> 0:19:56.676 Malcolm joined us for our big end of year blowout 0:19:56.716 --> 0:19:59.716 show at the Skirmmelhorn Symphony Hall. We will be releasing 0:19:59.756 --> 0:20:02.756 those interview segments on NSC plus. If you're not a 0:20:02.796 --> 0:20:05.436 subscriber to NSC plus, you can do so by going 0:20:05.436 --> 0:20:08.636 to our website at No Small Endeavor dot com and 0:20:08.676 --> 0:20:13.276 click subscribe. Coming up, Malcolm and I discuss tactics for 0:20:13.356 --> 0:20:17.956 explaining things to people, the moral and practical importance of storytelling, 0:20:18.356 --> 0:20:23.716 and is rather strong opinions on Ivy League schools. 0:20:23.476 --> 0:20:26.316 Which I think are completely and utterly morally bankrupt. 0:20:41.716 --> 0:20:45.196 So fast forward to your vocation. You said at one point, 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:47.996 I just want to explain things to people. 0:20:49.556 --> 0:20:52.716 Yeah, so this we're talking excessively about my family. If 0:20:52.756 --> 0:20:53.756 that's okay? Is that okay? 0:20:53.756 --> 0:20:54.916 We're gonna move on in a minute. 0:20:54.956 --> 0:20:58.956 Okay, there are two things. So my family's divided down 0:20:58.996 --> 0:21:01.476 the middle. There's my mom and me on one side, 0:21:01.516 --> 0:21:03.836 and then there's everybody else, my brothers and my father. 0:21:04.556 --> 0:21:08.916 My father and my brothers were incapable of explaining things, 0:21:09.596 --> 0:21:15.956 so my father would just go and then my brother Jeff, 0:21:15.956 --> 0:21:19.076 who I love dearly, just would talk endlessly and not 0:21:19.156 --> 0:21:23.036 get anywhere. And as a kid. This drove me crazy. 0:21:23.196 --> 0:21:25.396 So you know how you're constantly playing games as a kid, 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:27.356 and there's always a moment where you've got to teach 0:21:27.356 --> 0:21:31.676 your cousin how to play Hearts, and so my father 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:34.476 would be incapable, and my brother would give this incredibly 0:21:34.516 --> 0:21:37.156 long explanation of a going over, and then finally, in frustration, 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:39.996 I would just say, okay, everyone shut up. This is 0:21:40.036 --> 0:21:43.236 how you play Hearts and the mistakes people make it 0:21:43.316 --> 0:21:45.276 explaining things just to drive me. As I can remember 0:21:45.276 --> 0:21:47.436 it as like an eight year old being driven crazy 0:21:47.476 --> 0:21:50.396 by this. The thing you start with is what is 0:21:50.436 --> 0:21:53.836 the point of the game. Start with that. The point 0:21:53.836 --> 0:21:57.316 of monopoly is to amass as many properties as you 0:21:57.356 --> 0:21:58.836 can and put everyone else bankrupt. 0:21:58.916 --> 0:21:59.116 Right. 0:21:59.236 --> 0:22:01.596 You don't explain the game before you explain the point, 0:22:01.756 --> 0:22:04.556 right like people would start without doing and I would 0:22:04.556 --> 0:22:07.156 read the Parker Brothers at instructions and I would say, 0:22:07.396 --> 0:22:08.996 why didn't you tell me what the point. 0:22:08.796 --> 0:22:11.356 Is in the you were speaking my love language. 0:22:13.276 --> 0:22:16.436 To drive me to this day, this drives me nuts. 0:22:16.996 --> 0:22:22.596 Explain it properly, right. So I think that was where 0:22:22.636 --> 0:22:23.916 my career as a journalist is born. 0:22:23.956 --> 0:22:24.756 Huh. 0:22:24.836 --> 0:22:26.676 I was like I grew up in a household where 0:22:27.716 --> 0:22:30.396 sixty percent of the members of our house, my household, 0:22:30.876 --> 0:22:33.036 could not explain the simplest thing to anybody else. 0:22:35.756 --> 0:22:38.116 So before we go on from just a note about 0:22:38.116 --> 0:22:40.516 your father and higher education, I want to ask one quie. 0:22:40.556 --> 0:22:42.636 I don't want to talk long about this, but you 0:22:42.756 --> 0:22:45.436 certainly in your career as a journalists you seem to 0:22:45.476 --> 0:22:48.276 have a pretty strong love hate relationship with higher education. 0:22:48.356 --> 0:22:51.916 Oh my god, don't even get me started. Leave you 0:22:51.956 --> 0:22:55.356 said you only we only have ninety minutes, You're I 0:22:55.396 --> 0:22:56.956 have just give. 0:22:56.836 --> 0:22:59.996 Us a three to four minute excursis on that. I mean, 0:22:59.996 --> 0:23:01.036 I can't, Yeah, you can't. 0:23:01.116 --> 0:23:04.356 Can't even Okay, I'll ask follow up questions. Okay, I'll 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:09.436 tell you. I just wrote I'm writing a see to 0:23:09.476 --> 0:23:11.836