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Speaker 1: Bushkin. Hello, Hello, Malcolm. Here today we're sharing something a

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Speaker 1: little different on revisionist history. I'm bringing you back in

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Speaker 1: time to my beginnings. I'm sharing an episode of the

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Speaker 1: acclaim podcast No Small Endeavor, where I sat down with

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Speaker 1: my friend, the host and award winning theologian Lee Camp

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Speaker 1: to discuss some of my most cherished moments in my

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Speaker 1: journey thus far. Produced by Great Fielding Studios and p

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Speaker 1: r X, No Small Endeavor brings you thoughtful conversations with

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Speaker 1: best selling authors, artists, theologians and philosophers like Hollywood legend

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Speaker 1: Rob Reiner and civil rights hero Reverend James Lawson about

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Speaker 1: what it means to live a good life. In my episode,

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Speaker 1: we discuss some of my favorite stories, from receiving permission

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Speaker 1: from my mother to cut class, spending three days a

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Speaker 1: week in Freudian therapy as a young adult, all of

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Speaker 1: which contributed to who I am today. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: check out No Small Endeavor wherever you get podcasts and

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Speaker 1: tell them I say hello, and without further ado, here

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Speaker 1: is the full episode.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lee C. Camp and this is No Small Endeavor

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Speaker 2: exploring what it means to live a good life. You're

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Speaker 2: probably familiar with the work of Malcolm Gladwell. Perhaps you've

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Speaker 2: read one of his New York Times bestselling books like

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Speaker 2: The Tipping Point or Outliers, or maybe you listen to

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Speaker 2: Malcolm's podcast or Visionist History. But how well do you

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Speaker 2: know the man himself?

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Speaker 1: There's a pear in my life where I spent a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of time in Freudian therapy.

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Speaker 2: Today we learn what made Malcolm malcolm like, what pushed

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Speaker 2: him to get really good at explaining things.

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Speaker 1: My father and my brothers were incapable of explaining.

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Speaker 2: Things, or how his dad influenced his curiosity.

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Speaker 1: My whole childhood was spent listening to my father meet

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Speaker 1: random strangers and him asking them questions. He had no

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Speaker 1: insecurities about declaring himself ignorant in.

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Speaker 2: An area all coming right up, I'm leasey camp. This

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Speaker 2: is no small endeavor exploring what it means to live

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Speaker 2: a good life. There's a fascinating scene in the TV

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Speaker 2: show Ted Lasso where Ted makes a huge bet on

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Speaker 2: a game of darts to help out a friend. His

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Speaker 2: opponent assumes Ted knows nothing about the game as Ted

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Speaker 2: makes a few less than excellent throws with his right hand.

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Speaker 2: But that's when Ted reveals that he's not right handed

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Speaker 2: and hits a bull's eye with his left and while

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Speaker 2: Ted is hustling his opponent, he says, guys have been

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Speaker 2: underestimating me my entire life. But he continues that he'd

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Speaker 2: come to realize that they're underestimating him had nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with him, but rather them. They had failed, says Ted,

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Speaker 2: to practice that wisdom be curious, not judgmental, and just

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Speaker 2: before he clinches the wind, Ted says that if they

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Speaker 2: were curious, they would have known that he played darts

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Speaker 2: every Sunday with his father from age ten until he

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Speaker 2: was sixteen, when his father passed away. It's one of

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Speaker 2: the great moments of television, in this poignant moment of

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Speaker 2: character development, granting insight that reveals new depth, new dimensions.

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Speaker 2: This fundamental posture to be curious not judgmental allows us

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Speaker 2: to ask good questions and thereby get a glimpse into

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Speaker 2: the fascinating journeys which have led another to become the

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Speaker 2: person they are. We try to do this in some

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Speaker 2: way with all of our guests, but our interview today

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Speaker 2: is an especially such poignant moment. You may think you

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Speaker 2: know Malcolm Gladwell New York Times bestselling author of Outliers,

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Speaker 2: The Tipping Point Blink, host of the wildly popular podcast

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Speaker 2: Revisionist History, and when I first began to prepare for

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Speaker 2: my time with Malcolm, I was first drawn into curiosity

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Speaker 2: about the stories Malcolm tells so well. But then I

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Speaker 2: began to note the tendencies and habits and traits Malcolm

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Speaker 2: exhibits in his storytelling, and that made me curious about

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Speaker 2: why Malcolm is Malcolm, How his family's inability to explain

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Speaker 2: things made him want to explain things, How his dad

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Speaker 2: taking him to a Mennonite barn raising as a kid

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Speaker 2: influenced what he thought was possible and what regrets he

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Speaker 2: may or may not have, including a year of Freudyent

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Speaker 2: therapy three times a week in New York City. Today,

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Speaker 2: our conversation with Malcolm Gladwell taped in front of a

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Speaker 2: small audience in Nashville, days before our annual Thanksgiving show

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Speaker 2: at Nashville's Skirmerhorn Symphony Hall, where Malcolm headlined Enjoy Malcolm.

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Speaker 2: Timothy Gladwell, Canadian journalist and author's been a staff writer

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Speaker 2: for the New Yorker since nineteen ninety six, wrote for

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Speaker 2: The Washington Post for ten years. Malcolm has published seven

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Speaker 2: books with at least five New York Times bestsellers. Appointed

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Speaker 2: to the Order of Canada in twenty eleven, and he

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Speaker 2: is the host of the podcast Revisionist History. Please make welcome,

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Badwell, Welcome to Nashville again.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Good to have you back here in music City. I

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Speaker 2: understand that you've at least had a number of entertaining episodes,

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Speaker 2: certainly those of us who've listened to your podcast a

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Speaker 2: good bit, no fascinating conversations with fascinating Nashvillians. But you recently,

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Speaker 2: like today, told me a very entertaining story about a

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Speaker 2: Nashville experience that you once had that seems classic Nashville

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Speaker 2: to me. And you were running.

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Speaker 1: I went running. This is actually now only that I

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Speaker 1: reflect on it after talking to you about it. I

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Speaker 1: think this is the perfect national story. Yes, if that

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Speaker 1: doesn't raise the bar too high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm.

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Speaker 1: A runner and I everyone tells me I got a

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Speaker 1: run in Percy Warner Park, so make my way out there,

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Speaker 1: get stuck in traffic, get there a little late.

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Speaker 2: So far it is the perfect Nashville story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I think it's July. It's probably ninety some

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Speaker 1: odd superhuman, still the perfect natural story. And I decide

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Speaker 1: it's too hot to go running with my T shirt,

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Speaker 1: so I just wear a per of shorts, which you

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Speaker 1: could do, right.

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Speaker 2: I go running, which you can do, which I can do.

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Speaker 1: So I go off and I climb that big road.

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Speaker 1: I'm going around Percy Water Park and it's a little late.

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Speaker 1: It starts to get a little dark, but I think

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Speaker 1: I'm fine, but I get lost, not just mildly lost,

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Speaker 1: like completely one hundred percent. I have no idea where

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Speaker 1: I am. I can't see any lights. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what am I gonna do. So I'm drenched in sweat

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Speaker 1: and I'm just wearing a pair of shorts, and I

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Speaker 1: stand by the side the road and I hitchhike. Big

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Speaker 1: beefy guys in like four f one fifties, don't stop,

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Speaker 1: take one look at me. There's no part of it. Finally,

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Speaker 1: a girl, and I say a girl, because she was

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Speaker 1: probably in her early twenties, little battered hond Accourt stops

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Speaker 1: rolled down the window. Can I help you, sir? And

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Speaker 1: I said, first of all, you should not be picking

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Speaker 1: me up.

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Speaker 2: You're not.

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Speaker 1: What are you doing that? Strange dude? In the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night, drenched in sweat. But I get in

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Speaker 1: and I said, why did you do that? And she said, well,

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Speaker 1: I was coming from Bible study, and today we studied

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Speaker 1: the story of the Good Smear.

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Speaker 2: As a boy, you lived in like three countries, at

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Speaker 2: least briefly. Is that what I understand?

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Speaker 1: Born in England, spend a lot sometime in Jamaic, my

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Speaker 1: mom's Jamaica, and then we moved to Canada, and then

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Speaker 1: I came down here.

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Speaker 2: So your father's Englishman, My.

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Speaker 1: Dad is an Englishman, my mom's They met in college

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Speaker 1: University College, London in the fifties.

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Speaker 2: You have many memories of Jamaica at all.

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Speaker 1: Well, we would go there regularly when I was growing up,

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Speaker 1: and so eventually most of my family there have moved

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Speaker 1: to Canada and the US. But as a kid, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all of those experiences. What do you think that

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Speaker 2: did for your just sense of self or sense of identity.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm a strong believer in the idea that we

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Speaker 1: have multiple identities and that we have the right to

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Speaker 1: rank them in the order that we choose. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that irritates me about the world is that

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Speaker 1: the world sometimes chooses for you how to rank your

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Speaker 1: own identities. I always think of my mom, who to

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Speaker 1: give you For example, my mom is a a black woman,

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Speaker 1: a Jamaican, a woman, a Christian, a therapist, a writer,

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Speaker 1: a mother, and a wife, and a Canadian. I mean

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Speaker 1: I going I would say that over the course of

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Speaker 1: her life, the way she ranks all of those identities

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Speaker 1: has changed, and I think it constantly changes. And I

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Speaker 1: think she's ninety two, I think they may change again.

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Speaker 1: But like the world, you know, various people in the

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Speaker 1: world would look at her and say she maybe she's

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Speaker 1: number one a black women, and she would say, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I might have been number one a black

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Speaker 1: women when I was twenty three and in England for

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Speaker 1: the first time and being treated like, you know, less

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Speaker 1: than a full person, but I don't haven't been treated

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Speaker 1: that way in thirty years. Why should I foreground that

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Speaker 1: identity anyway? That idea that there are many parts of

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Speaker 1: us and we get to choose which part is most

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Speaker 1: important is I think that's what I picked up from

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Speaker 1: all of those kind of shifting situation's environments when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid.

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Speaker 2: So two finow up questions on that one we unpack more.

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Speaker 2: Why that sharply irritates you.

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Speaker 1: Well, because it diminishes. When we do that to people,

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Speaker 1: we diminish their humanity, and we presume to understand them

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Speaker 1: when in fact we don't. And so I had said,

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Speaker 1: did I get in trouble? I have part of a company,

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Speaker 1: and we have these company meetings every now and again.

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Speaker 1: I did it and asked me anything with the staff,

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Speaker 1: and someone's asked, in a relatively hostile way, did I

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Speaker 1: think the company was sufficiently diverse? And I said two

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Speaker 1: things in response. One is, don't I count? And the

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Speaker 1: second thing I said, Well, I said to the whole staff,

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Speaker 1: if any of you is a Republican, raised your hand,

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Speaker 1: and no one did. And I said, well, if we're

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Speaker 1: going to call ourselves a diverse company, shouldn't we have

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Speaker 1: some Republicans. Now this was treated like I had said

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Speaker 1: some terrible thing. I'm serious. I mean, my definition of

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Speaker 1: diversity encompasses a dozen different dimensions of human complexity, and

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Speaker 1: I think I actually value diversity very I take it

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Speaker 1: very seriously. And the book I'm reading right now has

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Speaker 1: a lot about diversity. But my definition of diversity is broad.

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Speaker 1: If I had my way, we would have more of

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Speaker 1: every kind of person, and we would be a richer

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Speaker 1: place for it. And I object to a definition of

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Speaker 1: diversity that's super narrow. And that's why this is a

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Speaker 1: kind of top of mind.

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Speaker 2: Issue for Yeah. So back to your childhood and you

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Speaker 2: said that you think that that experience allows you to

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Speaker 2: begin to pay attention to multiplicity of identities and the

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Speaker 2: possibility of ranking those when you look back at that

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Speaker 2: young Malcolm, what were some of the key identities for

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Speaker 2: him at that time being raised in Canada.

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Speaker 1: Well, so I'll tell you other story. My dad, who

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Speaker 1: passed sadly a few years ago, but who was a

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Speaker 1: marvelously independent minded man, a big beard. He was a mathematician,

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Speaker 1: and he al was dressed in a suit and a

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Speaker 1: tie even when he was gardening, which.

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Speaker 2: Is his favorite thing. But he was an Englishman.

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Speaker 1: He was an Englishman, took it very seriously, but he

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Speaker 1: loved we lived in this Mennonite community. He loved the

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Speaker 1: Mennonites and was sort of thought everything they did was

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Speaker 1: kind of fascinating him. And they used to have barn raisings.

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Speaker 1: When a barn burned down, they would all gather. These

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Speaker 1: are mostly conservative Menonites, so people who drove horses and buggies.

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Speaker 1: They would all gather, they would get together, like the

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Speaker 1: next weekend, hundreds of them. They would descend on that

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Speaker 1: farm and they would rebuild the barn in essentially a

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Speaker 1: day right famous barn raising. My dad decided when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid once that he would attend a barn raising. So,

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Speaker 1: if you can imagine, we drove you off into the

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Speaker 1: middle of the countryside in our.

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Speaker 2: Involv of course, and he's not a Mennonite, no, he's.

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Speaker 1: A Presbyterian with a big beard, in an English accent

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Speaker 1: and wearing a suit and die. So we get in

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Speaker 1: our volvo and he shows up and everyone else's bandies

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Speaker 1: are clean shaven, and they're all wearing black cloth garments,

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Speaker 1: and they have their horses and buggies out front, and

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Speaker 1: they all go to the same church, and they all

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Speaker 1: know each other. And this englishman with a PhD in

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Speaker 1: advanced mathematics shows up in his volvo with his three

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Speaker 1: sons in tow and announces he'd like to join right now.

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Speaker 1: They were fine with it. They gave him stuff to

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Speaker 1: do and blah blah blah. But my point is my

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Speaker 1: dad was the kind of person who it never occurred

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Speaker 1: to him that that was a socially awkward thing to do.

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Speaker 1: It just didn't occur to him. He was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: your neighbor. I live down the road, I know some

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Speaker 1: of you. I love farming. He wanted to be a farmer.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there was no part of him. You know,

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Speaker 1: he believed in the same god.

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Speaker 2: God.

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Speaker 1: What does the Bible say, It says help your neighbor.

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Speaker 1: So he was there, right, that's the sort of that's

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Speaker 1: what I grew up with. Now would I do that,

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Speaker 1: Probably not. But it's incredibly powerful influence on you to

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Speaker 1: have as a father someone who does that without even

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Speaker 1: thinking about it. I mean he never even discussed it

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Speaker 1: with it. He just like, we're going get in and

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Speaker 1: came back and thought it was like the best experience.

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Speaker 2: So were you bookish as a boy?

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Speaker 1: I was. I would my father would take me, take

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Speaker 1: me out of school and take me to university and

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Speaker 1: just deposit me in the library. And it was the happiest.

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Speaker 1: It was like, those are my happiest child of memories

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Speaker 1: are playing hooky. It wasn't hooky. What do you call it?

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Speaker 1: When you are it's being done with your parents' consent.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. But it was parental

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Speaker 1: hooky that we played. And I would just wander around

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Speaker 1: the university library well you know, be ten or eleven, huh,

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Speaker 1: And and then i'd have, you know, I have lunch

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Speaker 1: with him and have a hamburger in the cafeterias. Fantastic,

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Speaker 1: never had hamburgers at home.

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Speaker 2: I think I heard you saying some interview that maybe

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Speaker 2: your mother would sign.

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Speaker 1: That was later. My mom then became deeply complicit in

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Speaker 1: my truancy. She understood that I was going to seek

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Speaker 1: to rebel as a teenager, and so she decided what

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Speaker 1: she would do is just anticipate it and meet me there.

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Speaker 1: So she at one point, when she saw that I

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Speaker 1: wasn't that interested in going to school, she would write

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Speaker 1: notes Malcolm is sick today, can in school and leave

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Speaker 1: the date blank and just give me a bunch of them.

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Speaker 1: Amazing in retrospect, so genius, Like how do you rebel

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Speaker 1: against that? She's like, she's like already signed off on it,

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Speaker 1: you know, like it's fine.

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Speaker 2: Whatever did you rebel as a teenager? No?

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Speaker 1: How could I? My mother foreclosed out responsibility that avenue I.

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Speaker 2: Were to think of one or two words and thinking

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Speaker 2: about the kind of work you do. I think curiosity

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Speaker 2: would be certainly high on the list. Or do you

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Speaker 2: see that coming from your childhood?

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to talk to my dad again. He

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Speaker 1: was deep. I realized. It took me a long time

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Speaker 1: to realize this was unusual in someone. But in his

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Speaker 1: obituary I wrote that he considered him himself an expert

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Speaker 1: in only three things mathematics, gardening, and the Bible, and

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Speaker 1: on everything else he was open to suggestion, and that

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Speaker 1: was really his position. That he just assumed if he

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Speaker 1: met someone that they knew more than he did on

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Speaker 1: their subjects of chosen of choice, and that he should

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Speaker 1: just ask questions and learn. And my whole childhood was

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Speaker 1: spent listening to my father meet random strangers figure out

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Speaker 1: what areas they knew more about than he did, and

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Speaker 1: him asking them questions. I thought that was normal. I

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Speaker 1: discovered later that that's not normal. But so I had

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Speaker 1: a kind of model of this kind of extreme and

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Speaker 1: a lot of it was grounded in He had no

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Speaker 1: insecurities about declaring himself ignorant in an area. I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a problem with that. It's like, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to go with that. Right, even on things he

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Speaker 1: knew a lot about. If he met a theologian, he

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Speaker 1: wouldn't even pretend to know more about them than the

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Speaker 1: Bible or gardening. If he thought that, you know more

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Speaker 1: about Delphinians and he did it all ears, let's go.

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Speaker 1: It's a kind of extreme version of curiosity. Again, I

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Speaker 1: don't think I can match that, but it's a really

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Speaker 1: powerful model to be given as a kid.

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Speaker 2: How do you think the virtue of humility? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I would as sen there's like almost a direct correlation

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Speaker 2: or causative effect between humility and curiosity. But how do

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Speaker 2: you think about that? Oh?

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Speaker 1: I do think I agree, I would agree to that.

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Speaker 1: I would think it's impossible without having It's odd though,

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Speaker 1: So there's two parts of it. One is humility that

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Speaker 1: you don't presume that you know things you don't know.

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Speaker 1: But you also have to have a lot of self

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Speaker 1: confidence because you have to be completely indifferent to the

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Speaker 1: consequences of letting the world know about what you don't know.

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Speaker 1: You do not care, right, And my dad was a

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Speaker 1: supremely self confident person. So that allowed him, I think,

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Speaker 1: to to kind of expose himself in this way. Is

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Speaker 1: as being you know he didn't have any kind of

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Speaker 1: hang up most people. The real reason people aren't curious,

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Speaker 1: I think is not so much that they lack humility,

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Speaker 1: but that they lack confidence and they're not willing to

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Speaker 1: kind of show themselves to the world as not knowing things.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to No Small Endeavor in a conversation with

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Speaker 2: Malcolm Gladwell, I love hearing from you. Tell us what

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Speaker 2: you're reading, who you're paying attention to, or send us

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Speaker 2: feedback about today's episode. You can reach me at Lee

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Speaker 2: at No Small Endeavor dot com. Recently, for example, received

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Speaker 2: a lovely email from Anna Wildey, writing in from New

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Speaker 2: Zealand retired teacher of literacy, Miss Wilde, It's so very

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Speaker 2: nice to have you joining us. You can get show

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Speaker 2: notes for this episode in your podcast app or wherever

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Speaker 2: you listen. These notes include links to resources mentioned in

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Speaker 2: this episode, as well as a PDF of my complete

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Speaker 2: interview notes and a full transcript. We would be most

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Speaker 2: delighted if you tell your friends about No Small Endeavor

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Speaker 2: and invite them to join us on the podcast, because

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Speaker 2: it helps extend the reach of the beauty, truth, and

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Speaker 2: goodness we are seeking to sew in the world. Also,

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Speaker 2: Malcolm joined us for our big end of year blowout

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Speaker 2: show at the Skirmmelhorn Symphony Hall. We will be releasing

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Speaker 2: those interview segments on NSC plus. If you're not a

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Speaker 2: subscriber to NSC plus, you can do so by going

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Speaker 2: to our website at No Small Endeavor dot com and

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Speaker 2: click subscribe. Coming up, Malcolm and I discuss tactics for

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Speaker 2: explaining things to people, the moral and practical importance of storytelling,

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Speaker 2: and is rather strong opinions on Ivy League schools.

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Speaker 1: Which I think are completely and utterly morally bankrupt.

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Speaker 2: So fast forward to your vocation. You said at one point,

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Speaker 2: I just want to explain things to people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this we're talking excessively about my family. If

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Speaker 1: that's okay? Is that okay?

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Speaker 2: We're gonna move on in a minute.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there are two things. So my family's divided down

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Speaker 1: the middle. There's my mom and me on one side,

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Speaker 1: and then there's everybody else, my brothers and my father.

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Speaker 1: My father and my brothers were incapable of explaining things,

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Speaker 1: so my father would just go and then my brother Jeff,

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Speaker 1: who I love dearly, just would talk endlessly and not

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Speaker 1: get anywhere. And as a kid. This drove me crazy.

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Speaker 1: So you know how you're constantly playing games as a kid,

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Speaker 1: and there's always a moment where you've got to teach

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Speaker 1: your cousin how to play Hearts, and so my father

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Speaker 1: would be incapable, and my brother would give this incredibly

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Speaker 1: long explanation of a going over, and then finally, in frustration,

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Speaker 1: I would just say, okay, everyone shut up. This is

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Speaker 1: how you play Hearts and the mistakes people make it

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Speaker 1: explaining things just to drive me. As I can remember

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Speaker 1: it as like an eight year old being driven crazy

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Speaker 1: by this. The thing you start with is what is

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Speaker 1: the point of the game. Start with that. The point

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Speaker 1: of monopoly is to amass as many properties as you

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Speaker 1: can and put everyone else bankrupt.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You don't explain the game before you explain the point,

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Speaker 1: right like people would start without doing and I would

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Speaker 1: read the Parker Brothers at instructions and I would say,

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Speaker 1: why didn't you tell me what the point.

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Speaker 2: Is in the you were speaking my love language.

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Speaker 1: To drive me to this day, this drives me nuts.

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Speaker 1: Explain it properly, right. So I think that was where

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Speaker 1: my career as a journalist is born.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 1: I was like I grew up in a household where

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Speaker 1: sixty percent of the members of our house, my household,

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Speaker 1: could not explain the simplest thing to anybody else.

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Speaker 2: So before we go on from just a note about

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Speaker 2: your father and higher education, I want to ask one quie.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to talk long about this, but you

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Speaker 2: certainly in your career as a journalists you seem to

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Speaker 2: have a pretty strong love hate relationship with higher education.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, don't even get me started. Leave you

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Speaker 1: said you only we only have ninety minutes, You're I

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Speaker 1: have just give.

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Speaker 2: Us a three to four minute excursis on that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I can't, Yeah, you can't.

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Speaker 1: Can't even Okay, I'll ask follow up questions. Okay, I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you. I just wrote I'm writing a see to

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Speaker 1: my first book with Tipping Point. There is literally a

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Speaker 1: chapter called why does Harvard have a women's rugby team?

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Speaker 1: Which is six thousand words of explanation for why the

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Speaker 1: school would do something that otherwise makes no sense. So

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Speaker 1: it's not that I'm fine with them having a club

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Speaker 1: rugby team. They don't have a club. They have a

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Speaker 1: varsity women's rugby team, and they go to like New

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Speaker 1: Zealand to recruit people for it. They got like multiple coaches,

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Speaker 1: They fly around the country. They destroy other teams by

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Speaker 1: the score of like one hundred and five to nothing.

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Speaker 1: They have like a pro rugby team. They introduce this

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, and they already, you know, Harvard already

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Speaker 1: has more varsity sports than any other college in the world.

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Speaker 2: I did not know that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, by far, Ohio State doesn't even come close

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Speaker 1: or Alabama. Harvard's way off there. So I have a

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Speaker 1: whole grand theory about why they're doing it, which I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to go into because we don't have time.

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Speaker 1: But my point is, yes, I am obsessed with even

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Speaker 1: the smallest details. I have read stuff about, particularly Ivy

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Speaker 1: League colleges which I think are completely an utterly morally

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Speaker 1: bankrupt and should be shut down tomorrow. And the idea

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Speaker 1: that Americans stand by.

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Speaker 2: Way, you can't just say that, Well that one's asking

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Speaker 2: to follow up, what's what's the what's the root of

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Speaker 2: the moral bankruptcy?

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Speaker 1: Harvard is a school that educates what ten thousand students

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Speaker 1: maas and has an endowment of forty five billion, which

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Speaker 1: is subsidized by the American taxpayers. Can you think of

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Speaker 1: a more absurd situation where a handful of schools, the

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Speaker 1: total endowment of the Ivy League and Stanford is north

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Speaker 1: of one hundred billion dollars collectively, they educate one hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand students a yere a tiny, tiny drop in a bucket. Meanwhile,

434
00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:08,396
Speaker 1: they're hoarding one hundred and twenty billion dollars getting tax benefits,

435
00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:11,756
Speaker 1: all of which is subsized by the American taxpayer. And further,

436
00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:14,996
Speaker 1: the government's channeling funneling all kinds of cash towards them.

437
00:25:15,036 --> 00:25:18,196
Speaker 1: And it's absurd. And at the other end of the equation,

438
00:25:18,836 --> 00:25:22,556
Speaker 1: there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of students

439
00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:26,236
Speaker 1: in this country who are holding enormous amounts of debt

440
00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:29,676
Speaker 1: because the schools that they went to couldn't afford to

441
00:25:29,676 --> 00:25:33,036
Speaker 1: give them financial aid. Who would construct such a system?

442
00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:37,316
Speaker 1: It makes no sense. If you're going to have forty

443
00:25:37,316 --> 00:25:39,396
Speaker 1: five billion dollars in the bank, the very least you

444
00:25:39,396 --> 00:25:41,876
Speaker 1: should do is educate one hundred thousand students a year.

445
00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 1: At minimum, you should educate ten times as many students

446
00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:48,196
Speaker 1: as you do. In Canada, where I come from the

447
00:25:48,196 --> 00:25:51,316
Speaker 1: most prestigious school in Canada's University of Toronto. It is

448
00:25:51,316 --> 00:25:55,676
Speaker 1: an undergraduate population of seventy thousand students, as it should.

449
00:25:56,276 --> 00:26:01,236
Speaker 1: Your most prestigious school should be your biggest school, right Like,

450
00:26:01,636 --> 00:26:03,796
Speaker 1: if you really do have the best faculty, in the

451
00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:07,276
Speaker 1: best facilities, and the most money and the greatest reputation,

452
00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:10,356
Speaker 1: you should try and help them some number of students.

453
00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:13,876
Speaker 1: This is like saying if I were to build the

454
00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:17,996
Speaker 1: greatest hospital in the South, and I said, Lee, I'm

455
00:26:17,996 --> 00:26:19,996
Speaker 1: going to open it in Nashville, It's going to be

456
00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:21,996
Speaker 1: the greatest hospital in the world. And here's what I'm

457
00:26:21,996 --> 00:26:23,716
Speaker 1: going to do. I'm going to let in one hundred

458
00:26:23,756 --> 00:26:26,516
Speaker 1: patients a year. You can bring in people on a

459
00:26:26,556 --> 00:26:31,996
Speaker 1: stretcher and fifty a day, have the ambulances line up,

460
00:26:32,116 --> 00:26:34,716
Speaker 1: and then I will spend the next two weeks assessing them,

461
00:26:35,836 --> 00:26:39,036
Speaker 1: and I will choose one for admittance to my elite

462
00:26:39,276 --> 00:26:43,636
Speaker 1: cardiac center and one for the dinner I'll take in one.

463
00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:47,316
Speaker 1: I'll have a neurosurgeon and he'll do one operation a day,

464
00:26:47,516 --> 00:26:50,556
Speaker 1: just to make sure it's the absolute top night. If

465
00:26:50,556 --> 00:26:53,836
Speaker 1: they did that, we would think that's bananas, right, Yep,

466
00:26:53,876 --> 00:26:57,796
Speaker 1: That's exactly the system we tolerate in American higher ch

467
00:26:58,196 --> 00:27:05,196
Speaker 1: It's preposterous. By the way, I'm not done. What do

468
00:27:05,396 --> 00:27:07,396
Speaker 1: rich people in this country do? They look at that

469
00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:10,716
Speaker 1: state of affairs, and they may they increasing large checks

470
00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:14,716
Speaker 1: to the schools that already have the most money. It's

471
00:27:14,756 --> 00:27:18,356
Speaker 1: even crazier, right, the marginal value of a dollar given

472
00:27:18,636 --> 00:27:22,156
Speaker 1: to Harvard University is zero. There's literally nothing they can

473
00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:25,996
Speaker 1: do with that, Like they're already every base is already covered.

474
00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:29,956
Speaker 1: If you gave a million dollars to this college, I mean,

475
00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:31,556
Speaker 1: we could talk all day about what that could do,

476
00:27:31,556 --> 00:27:33,396
Speaker 1: what you would do with that. If you give a

477
00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:36,356
Speaker 1: million dollars to Harvard, you might as well just burn

478
00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:41,236
Speaker 1: it in front of Harvard in Harvard Square. It's just crazy.

479
00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:45,036
Speaker 1: And literally not a week goes past when some hedge

480
00:27:45,036 --> 00:27:47,116
Speaker 1: fun guy doesn't a matter a check for two hundred

481
00:27:47,116 --> 00:27:49,516
Speaker 1: million dollars to Harvard University. And every time I see that,

482
00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:51,796
Speaker 1: I just think you are a moron.

483
00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:59,756
Speaker 2: Right, Well, I'm glad that we found something that you're passionate. Yeah,

484
00:27:59,876 --> 00:28:02,596
Speaker 2: I want to move to a moral philosophy just a second,

485
00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:04,596
Speaker 2: And actually i'll do a quick callback to something you

486
00:28:04,596 --> 00:28:08,076
Speaker 2: said a moment ago about rolls and multiplicity of identities,

487
00:28:08,076 --> 00:28:12,836
Speaker 2: which is something that narrative theology and moral philosophy that

488
00:28:12,956 --> 00:28:15,716
Speaker 2: takes narrative and story seriously talks about that a lot.

489
00:28:16,716 --> 00:28:23,196
Speaker 2: But it strikes me that since the Enlightenment, moral philosophy

490
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:25,956
Speaker 2: typically has much more focused on rules and principles, just

491
00:28:25,996 --> 00:28:27,956
Speaker 2: tell us the right thing to do, rules and principles.

492
00:28:28,476 --> 00:28:31,996
Speaker 2: But prior to the Enlightenment, a lot of ancient moral

493
00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:36,596
Speaker 2: traditions they focus very much more on story because storytelling

494
00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:42,156
Speaker 2: was fundamentally a morally formative practice in helping people think

495
00:28:42,156 --> 00:28:44,836
Speaker 2: about their sense of self, about what they saw as

496
00:28:44,876 --> 00:28:50,716
Speaker 2: beautiful and true and good. And obviously this wasn't moralistic storytelling,

497
00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:54,996
Speaker 2: but it was story as a moral practice. And it

498
00:28:55,036 --> 00:28:58,796
Speaker 2: seems to me that that's the kind of storytelling you

499
00:28:59,036 --> 00:29:01,876
Speaker 2: like to do. That is that you're trying to tell

500
00:29:01,956 --> 00:29:06,676
Speaker 2: stories that invite us to a different sense of self

501
00:29:06,876 --> 00:29:09,796
Speaker 2: or a different way of seeing the world that is

502
00:29:09,836 --> 00:29:12,556
Speaker 2: then an invitation to be changed in some way. Do

503
00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:14,996
Speaker 2: you resonate with that or does that seem to be yeah?

504
00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,636
Speaker 1: Right, So going back to that story I told about

505
00:29:18,676 --> 00:29:23,956
Speaker 1: my national story, So does the girl stop if at

506
00:29:23,956 --> 00:29:27,356
Speaker 1: her Bible study they talked about how we have a

507
00:29:27,396 --> 00:29:31,116
Speaker 1: moral obligation to help those less fortunate than us. Right,

508
00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:34,236
Speaker 1: that's one option. That's what they could have studied if

509
00:29:34,516 --> 00:29:37,236
Speaker 1: they were just interested in rules and principles. But they didn't.

510
00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:42,636
Speaker 1: They studied a story, a very concrete story about, you know,

511
00:29:42,876 --> 00:29:47,796
Speaker 1: a member of a despised minority who goes out of

512
00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:52,556
Speaker 1: his way. He disrupts his routine and puts himself to

513
00:29:52,596 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble to help somebody doesn't know, right,

514
00:29:55,956 --> 00:29:59,636
Speaker 1: very concrete story that's in her head. She's driving down

515
00:29:59,636 --> 00:30:01,836
Speaker 1: a road and what does she see someone in distress

516
00:30:01,876 --> 00:30:03,956
Speaker 1: by the side of the road, and she has to

517
00:30:03,956 --> 00:30:07,516
Speaker 1: put herself in some kind of jeopardy to stop and help.

518
00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:10,556
Speaker 1: And she has that the story in her head, so

519
00:30:10,596 --> 00:30:13,436
Speaker 1: she does it right, Like that's what a story can do.

520
00:30:13,596 --> 00:30:16,716
Speaker 1: I don't think she stops if it's just an abstract thing,

521
00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:21,236
Speaker 1: But there was some kind of in the specifics of

522
00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:25,116
Speaker 1: the story of the Good Samaritan. There is something really

523
00:30:25,276 --> 00:30:29,116
Speaker 1: powerful that moves people in a way that the abstract

524
00:30:29,116 --> 00:30:31,116
Speaker 1: discussion is not, Which is not to say the abstract

525
00:30:31,156 --> 00:30:35,076
Speaker 1: discussion is without value, sure, but there's a particular power

526
00:30:35,116 --> 00:30:37,516
Speaker 1: attached to the story that and I've always loved that.

527
00:30:37,756 --> 00:30:40,316
Speaker 1: And I did the six part series on guns this

528
00:30:40,676 --> 00:30:43,116
Speaker 1: for the Revision's history this year. In the last episode,

529
00:30:43,836 --> 00:30:45,716
Speaker 1: I went to the University of Chicago and I was

530
00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:48,836
Speaker 1: interviewing someone there for while I was there, she said, Oh,

531
00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:52,956
Speaker 1: you should really talk to my colleague Abdullah, and so

532
00:30:52,996 --> 00:30:55,276
Speaker 1: this is totally random thing, and I went, okay, and

533
00:30:55,316 --> 00:30:59,196
Speaker 1: I go and meet this guy who's a er doc

534
00:30:59,196 --> 00:31:01,516
Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago. Grew up in the South

535
00:31:01,516 --> 00:31:06,436
Speaker 1: Side of Chicago, black guy who chose to practice emergency

536
00:31:06,476 --> 00:31:10,236
Speaker 1: medicine in the same neighborhood he grew up, which is

537
00:31:10,236 --> 00:31:13,756
Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the country. And

538
00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:16,996
Speaker 1: he was describing the experience of on any given day

539
00:31:17,716 --> 00:31:19,836
Speaker 1: he will see someone brought in on a stretcher who's

540
00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:23,596
Speaker 1: been shot, who's someone he knew. And there's a moment

541
00:31:23,596 --> 00:31:25,836
Speaker 1: in a conversation where he talks about I asked him

542
00:31:25,836 --> 00:31:31,636
Speaker 1: how many friends he's had who have been killed, and

543
00:31:32,356 --> 00:31:34,836
Speaker 1: he actually has this He's a, you mean like people

544
00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:36,716
Speaker 1: I was close enough too that they were in my phone,

545
00:31:36,996 --> 00:31:38,676
Speaker 1: like I've been texting with him. I go yeah, he

546
00:31:38,716 --> 00:31:43,396
Speaker 1: goes fifteen, Oh right, And the whole conversation is I

547
00:31:43,436 --> 00:31:46,756
Speaker 1: had framed it in the episode is framed by this

548
00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,956
Speaker 1: comment that this I had done a couple of seasons ago.

549
00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:53,676
Speaker 1: This whole thing about the Jesuits thinking like a Jesuit,

550
00:31:56,116 --> 00:31:58,476
Speaker 1: and that's one Jesuit has said to me. Sin is

551
00:31:58,476 --> 00:32:01,676
Speaker 1: the failure to bother to care. And the whole episode

552
00:32:01,676 --> 00:32:05,316
Speaker 1: is all about what does it mean to bother to care? Now?

553
00:32:06,556 --> 00:32:08,316
Speaker 1: Sin is the failure to bother to care? Is the

554
00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:14,436
Speaker 1: abstract rule. This guy, Abdolah Price's decision to forego a

555
00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:18,116
Speaker 1: much easier, more lucrative life practice is an ear doc

556
00:32:18,156 --> 00:32:21,596
Speaker 1: in a suburb someplace to go back and practice in

557
00:32:21,596 --> 00:32:27,276
Speaker 1: his own neighborhood and run the risk of this traumatic

558
00:32:27,356 --> 00:32:31,076
Speaker 1: thing where it's kids he knows coming in right, that's

559
00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:35,356
Speaker 1: a story, it's real about his choices, and it's just

560
00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:38,996
Speaker 1: emotionally moving in the and it makes that principle come

561
00:32:38,996 --> 00:32:43,396
Speaker 1: to life. Right suddenly you get what suggests what mean

562
00:32:43,396 --> 00:32:45,476
Speaker 1: when he's saying sin is defailure to bother the care?

563
00:32:46,196 --> 00:32:50,116
Speaker 1: He means that he means, he means you have to

564
00:32:50,116 --> 00:33:02,556
Speaker 1: make the same kind of choice that that guy made.

565
00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:06,436
Speaker 2: We're going to take a short break, but coming right up,

566
00:33:06,676 --> 00:33:10,236
Speaker 2: Malcolm's definition of happiness and what quality he values the

567
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:23,316
Speaker 2: most in people. I want to talk about happiness a second.

568
00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:28,516
Speaker 2: So in this kind of school of moral theory that

569
00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:35,996
Speaker 2: I've raised her, happiness defined a particular way is seen

570
00:33:36,076 --> 00:33:41,236
Speaker 2: as the point of life. And I wanted to do

571
00:33:41,276 --> 00:33:44,036
Speaker 2: a little short experiment here, and I wanted to read

572
00:33:44,036 --> 00:33:47,516
Speaker 2: you a short passage from a Catholic theologian whose work

573
00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:50,116
Speaker 2: I like, Paul Waddell, and I've used his book in

574
00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:52,236
Speaker 2: a number of my ethics classes. It's a book called

575
00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:54,836
Speaker 2: Happiness and the Christian Moral Life, And I want to

576
00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:56,636
Speaker 2: see what you make of it. So what Ell says this,

577
00:33:57,796 --> 00:34:00,996
Speaker 2: the trajectory of our lives can be read as an

578
00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:05,876
Speaker 2: endless pursuit of whatever we think will satisfy us, content us,

579
00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:09,516
Speaker 2: and fulfill us. All of that reveals what we believe

580
00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:14,556
Speaker 2: will bring us happiness and satisfaction. The trouble, however, is

581
00:34:14,556 --> 00:34:18,396
Speaker 2: that we are often confused and easily misled about what

582
00:34:18,436 --> 00:34:22,556
Speaker 2: will really fulfill us. Then he's talking about Aquinas in Aristotle.

583
00:34:22,596 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 2: He says, for Aquinas in Aristotle, happiness does not reside

584
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:32,596
Speaker 2: in having my wants and desire satisfied unless I have

585
00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:35,596
Speaker 2: learned to want and desire what is.

586
00:34:35,636 --> 00:34:40,036
Speaker 1: Best that's lovely, lovely.

587
00:34:40,356 --> 00:34:44,116
Speaker 2: I think it's lovely. Yeah, why do you find it lovely? Well?

588
00:34:44,156 --> 00:34:47,076
Speaker 1: First of all, I like it gives us a definition

589
00:34:47,236 --> 00:34:53,716
Speaker 1: of the purpose of a religious life that's different, that

590
00:34:54,516 --> 00:34:57,156
Speaker 1: it adds to our understanding of that. And I like

591
00:34:57,196 --> 00:34:59,516
Speaker 1: the idea that I love any kind of notion that

592
00:34:59,636 --> 00:35:01,876
Speaker 1: says that are that left to our own devices, we

593
00:35:02,196 --> 00:35:05,236
Speaker 1: often get things wrong. I like that that's an important

594
00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:10,116
Speaker 1: reminder we just willly nearly follow what's in our gut

595
00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:14,436
Speaker 1: as often as not screw up right. I My book Blink,

596
00:35:14,636 --> 00:35:17,996
Speaker 1: which was misinterpreted as a book celebrating gut instincts when

597
00:35:17,996 --> 00:35:20,516
Speaker 1: in fact it was the opposite, was about this, like,

598
00:35:20,876 --> 00:35:23,676
Speaker 1: unless you're an expert, your instincts lead you astray. You

599
00:35:23,756 --> 00:35:25,796
Speaker 1: need to educate them in some way. And the idea

600
00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:30,236
Speaker 1: that one of those civilizing institutions in life is the

601
00:35:30,356 --> 00:35:34,716
Speaker 1: church is a really good one. That's like a life love.

602
00:35:34,756 --> 00:35:39,916
Speaker 1: The way he phrased it, you're sixty, don't remind me.

603
00:35:42,356 --> 00:35:43,036
Speaker 2: Are you happy?

604
00:35:43,956 --> 00:35:47,476
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I don't, Yes, I do think I'm happy.

605
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:50,316
Speaker 1: It's funny, I never asked myself that question that comes

606
00:35:50,396 --> 00:35:53,516
Speaker 1: to mind in very very discreet moments, so I'm much

607
00:35:53,516 --> 00:35:57,436
Speaker 1: more comfortable saying I was happy doing X, Or I

608
00:35:57,556 --> 00:36:00,316
Speaker 1: was happy when do you know what I mean? I

609
00:36:00,436 --> 00:36:03,076
Speaker 1: fixed a problem in a chapter I was working on

610
00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:08,036
Speaker 1: this morning in a little coffee shop in Nashville. I

611
00:36:08,076 --> 00:36:10,556
Speaker 1: was happy when I realized that fixed it. Or I

612
00:36:10,596 --> 00:36:12,836
Speaker 1: will go running this afternoon afterward it be this, I

613
00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:14,756
Speaker 1: will be happy in the middle of that running. That's

614
00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:15,916
Speaker 1: how I like to think about happiness.

615
00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:22,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about when you think about being sixty? What

616
00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:29,196
Speaker 2: regrets or hardest lessons learned? To whatever degree you want

617
00:36:29,196 --> 00:36:29,956
Speaker 2: to talk about those?

618
00:36:31,996 --> 00:36:34,396
Speaker 1: I don't do I have. I must have regrets. I've

619
00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:36,036
Speaker 1: a ton of it. I suppose I have a lot, but

620
00:36:36,156 --> 00:36:40,716
Speaker 1: they're not like. The problem is that very often the

621
00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:43,996
Speaker 1: mistakes you made or the failures you have, turn out

622
00:36:43,996 --> 00:36:50,476
Speaker 1: to be so important in educating you, and that in

623
00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:52,716
Speaker 1: the end you don't think of them as mistakes anymore,

624
00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:54,556
Speaker 1: you know, I mean like, Yeah, So I do firmly

625
00:36:54,556 --> 00:36:57,716
Speaker 1: believe that you learn way more from your failures than

626
00:36:57,756 --> 00:37:00,876
Speaker 1: you do from your successes. I don't think success teaches

627
00:37:00,916 --> 00:37:03,556
Speaker 1: you much at all. The only thing that prods you

628
00:37:03,876 --> 00:37:07,836
Speaker 1: to dig deeper is when something doesn't work or when

629
00:37:07,876 --> 00:37:11,796
Speaker 1: something fails. And now, so after a lifetime of that,

630
00:37:12,676 --> 00:37:16,516
Speaker 1: can you really look on your failures as being can

631
00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:20,556
Speaker 1: you classify them as as regrettable? They're not regrettable because

632
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:25,556
Speaker 1: I came out different than I get confused by that

633
00:37:25,636 --> 00:37:29,556
Speaker 1: question because I don't know how to categorize. Like, there's

634
00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:31,276
Speaker 1: a period of my life where I spent a huge

635
00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:33,596
Speaker 1: amount of time in Freudian therapy.

636
00:37:34,396 --> 00:37:38,676
Speaker 2: Right, three days a week, you were receiving therapy.

637
00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:40,836
Speaker 1: I was receiving it. I was in Manhattan. I was

638
00:37:40,916 --> 00:37:44,236
Speaker 1: new to Manhattan. I was like, all right, that's what

639
00:37:44,276 --> 00:37:48,156
Speaker 1: they do here. So and I had a job that

640
00:37:48,276 --> 00:37:50,316
Speaker 1: wasn't that demanding. You can't have a demanding job, and

641
00:37:50,636 --> 00:37:53,036
Speaker 1: you can't have a demanding job and be in three

642
00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:55,556
Speaker 1: days a week Freudian therapy because it just wipes out

643
00:37:55,596 --> 00:37:58,356
Speaker 1: the whole day. Right, there's something that happens, by the way.

644
00:37:58,756 --> 00:38:00,636
Speaker 1: So I have this whole Manu book. It's a top

645
00:38:00,676 --> 00:38:01,996
Speaker 1: of mind. I have a whole thing on the magic

646
00:38:02,076 --> 00:38:05,236
Speaker 1: number three, three years a magic number. So you do

647
00:38:05,316 --> 00:38:07,276
Speaker 1: one day a week, it's like, fine, whatever lots of

648
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:09,076
Speaker 1: people do one day week, you do two, it's like

649
00:38:09,036 --> 00:38:13,036
Speaker 1: a lot. You do three, it completely takes over your life.

650
00:38:13,156 --> 00:38:17,476
Speaker 1: Nothing everything else fades into insignificance. You are someone who

651
00:38:17,516 --> 00:38:21,476
Speaker 1: does therapy. That's what your self definition is is, by

652
00:38:21,516 --> 00:38:24,476
Speaker 1: the way, astounding how it takes over your life. I've

653
00:38:24,476 --> 00:38:26,556
Speaker 1: never been through anything equivalent to this.

654
00:38:26,716 --> 00:38:28,396
Speaker 2: How long a period of your life was this?

655
00:38:28,876 --> 00:38:30,876
Speaker 1: I probably wasn't three days a week for I don't

656
00:38:30,876 --> 00:38:35,876
Speaker 1: even remember. Probably was a year. It was traumatic. It

657
00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:40,316
Speaker 1: was like, couldn't function, stop being productive at work, had

658
00:38:40,316 --> 00:38:45,676
Speaker 1: the most horrendous nightmares. Everything I was my unconscious because

659
00:38:45,676 --> 00:38:47,996
Speaker 1: all the Freudians cary about is you're unconscious. My unconscious

660
00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:51,196
Speaker 1: basically took over my life for a year. We see

661
00:38:51,636 --> 00:38:53,916
Speaker 1: a massive amount of time and a massive amount of

662
00:38:53,956 --> 00:38:57,636
Speaker 1: money was spent on this. It's the last year in

663
00:38:59,276 --> 00:39:03,156
Speaker 1: so you I say it was that a regret? I know,

664
00:39:03,276 --> 00:39:07,036
Speaker 1: because actually I didn't. It didn't solve any of my problems,

665
00:39:07,036 --> 00:39:12,236
Speaker 1: but it was, in retrospect a failure that was deeply fascinating. Yeah,

666
00:39:12,636 --> 00:39:16,836
Speaker 1: that taught me something really extraordinary about not really my mind,

667
00:39:16,876 --> 00:39:20,036
Speaker 1: but about the human mind. Man. There is a thing

668
00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:25,476
Speaker 1: called you're unconscious, and it is ginormous. It sits in

669
00:39:25,516 --> 00:39:28,716
Speaker 1: your brain wanting to get out, and if you even

670
00:39:28,876 --> 00:39:32,636
Speaker 1: so much as crack the door, it will rush out

671
00:39:32,636 --> 00:39:35,596
Speaker 1: a tick of your life it says we are scary, right,

672
00:39:35,676 --> 00:39:38,236
Speaker 1: human beings. That was a really interesting to learn, right,

673
00:39:38,636 --> 00:39:42,596
Speaker 1: I mean, a very costly lesson. But you know, who

674
00:39:42,596 --> 00:39:44,876
Speaker 1: knows what book I could have written in that year,

675
00:39:44,996 --> 00:39:47,956
Speaker 1: that last year. But I'm I'm glad I did it.

676
00:39:48,076 --> 00:39:51,996
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that reminds me of you reframing the

677
00:39:52,036 --> 00:39:55,596
Speaker 2: notion of the regrettable. That another theologian I've learned a

678
00:39:55,596 --> 00:39:58,476
Speaker 2: lot from and has now a friend, Stanley Harrawass, And

679
00:39:58,516 --> 00:40:00,956
Speaker 2: when he talks about this way of thinking about our lives.

680
00:40:01,636 --> 00:40:03,396
Speaker 2: I once heard him to a lecture where he was talking.

681
00:40:03,436 --> 00:40:04,876
Speaker 2: I don't remember who it was, but it was a

682
00:40:05,556 --> 00:40:09,396
Speaker 2: man who went to Oxford, got trained in literature, was

683
00:40:09,396 --> 00:40:13,156
Speaker 2: a poet. But then after some time he decided he

684
00:40:13,196 --> 00:40:16,916
Speaker 2: wanted to go back home and be a shepherd. And

685
00:40:16,956 --> 00:40:18,836
Speaker 2: so he was a shepherd, and he was a shepherd

686
00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:22,756
Speaker 2: who would write poetry. And at some point on into

687
00:40:22,796 --> 00:40:24,436
Speaker 2: his life, near the end of his life, he wrote

688
00:40:24,436 --> 00:40:29,236
Speaker 2: this essay in which he examined the ups and downs

689
00:40:29,236 --> 00:40:32,636
Speaker 2: of his life and then he came to the conclusion

690
00:40:33,436 --> 00:40:37,756
Speaker 2: this is my life. I want no other. And then

691
00:40:37,796 --> 00:40:41,876
Speaker 2: Harawa said, that's the meaning of a happy life is

692
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:44,636
Speaker 2: that you can look back on your life, whatever has happened,

693
00:40:45,516 --> 00:40:49,036
Speaker 2: and say I want this life.

694
00:40:49,436 --> 00:40:52,636
Speaker 1: My friend Bruce has this wonderful corollary to that. He

695
00:40:52,756 --> 00:40:56,116
Speaker 1: had problems with jealousy. He was open about and he

696
00:40:56,196 --> 00:40:59,796
Speaker 1: cured his problems with jealousy by saying, you can no

697
00:40:59,876 --> 00:41:05,316
Speaker 1: longer be envious of a piece of someone's life. You

698
00:41:05,396 --> 00:41:08,036
Speaker 1: have to want the whole life. So you say, Okay,

699
00:41:08,076 --> 00:41:11,316
Speaker 1: I wish I looked like Brad It you're lendious of

700
00:41:11,356 --> 00:41:13,836
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt. He's handsome dude. Then you have to say, no,

701
00:41:14,476 --> 00:41:16,316
Speaker 1: you can't just have his looks. Gotta have his whole life.

702
00:41:16,356 --> 00:41:17,716
Speaker 1: You really want his whole life. No, you don't want

703
00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:20,836
Speaker 1: his whole life. You want Angeline and Jolie like you know,

704
00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:24,756
Speaker 1: like filing suits against you, and like you can't you

705
00:41:24,796 --> 00:41:26,596
Speaker 1: can't get you can't go to the store and get

706
00:41:26,676 --> 00:41:28,996
Speaker 1: like a pint of milk because you'll be mommed. I mean,

707
00:41:29,196 --> 00:41:32,676
Speaker 1: you're a prisoner, right. It's a horrendous life, right, and

708
00:41:32,716 --> 00:41:36,956
Speaker 1: you think about it, You're living in some grotesque house

709
00:41:37,036 --> 00:41:39,276
Speaker 1: in la and you can't go out with that. Some

710
00:41:39,276 --> 00:41:41,356
Speaker 1: guy's gonna pull up in a suburban to take you in.

711
00:41:41,436 --> 00:41:43,796
Speaker 1: You know, a black suburban with tinted windows, so you can,

712
00:41:44,076 --> 00:41:45,956
Speaker 1: you know, go to the movie. I mean, you don't

713
00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:48,156
Speaker 1: want it, right, and if you go down the list,

714
00:41:48,236 --> 00:41:50,756
Speaker 1: you realize you actually don't want anyone's life except your own.

715
00:41:50,796 --> 00:41:52,396
Speaker 1: It's really really a useful Uh, that.

716
00:41:52,556 --> 00:41:55,476
Speaker 2: Is very useful. Yeah, it's striking how timid you are

717
00:41:55,516 --> 00:42:00,476
Speaker 2: about saying what you think. Okay, I want to shift.

718
00:42:00,516 --> 00:42:03,596
Speaker 2: I want to shift the conversation. Another another phrase that

719
00:42:03,636 --> 00:42:08,436
Speaker 2: I know I've heard you say repeatedly is a weeper.

720
00:42:10,436 --> 00:42:15,556
Speaker 2: He'll say, this is a real weeper. Yeah, So getting

721
00:42:15,596 --> 00:42:17,876
Speaker 2: ready for you coming to Nashville. I was listening to

722
00:42:17,876 --> 00:42:20,996
Speaker 2: your episode The King of Tears, which I would imagine

723
00:42:20,996 --> 00:42:23,036
Speaker 2: a lot of people in Nashville listen to Rob volves

724
00:42:23,076 --> 00:42:26,396
Speaker 2: around Nashville and country music, and it's woven together with

725
00:42:26,476 --> 00:42:31,036
Speaker 2: all these beautiful layers of storytelling about Bobby Braddock, famed

726
00:42:31,196 --> 00:42:34,476
Speaker 2: Nashville songwriter who you're calling the King of Tears because

727
00:42:34,476 --> 00:42:37,236
Speaker 2: he's written all of these amazing songs that are just weepers,

728
00:42:37,956 --> 00:42:42,316
Speaker 2: and you're especially weaving it together around his song he

729
00:42:42,316 --> 00:42:46,476
Speaker 2: Stopped Loving Her Today, which George Stones made famous. Yeah,

730
00:42:47,076 --> 00:42:51,596
Speaker 2: and so while listening to this episode, I was down

731
00:42:51,636 --> 00:42:54,276
Speaker 2: on the floor in my house, scraping baseboards, getting ready

732
00:42:54,316 --> 00:42:55,196
Speaker 2: for the painters to come.

733
00:42:55,876 --> 00:42:56,796
Speaker 1: Did you start crying?

734
00:42:57,956 --> 00:43:03,116
Speaker 2: Don't get asked my story. I can't believe you did that.

735
00:43:04,716 --> 00:43:06,596
Speaker 2: I would never do that to one of your stories.

736
00:43:10,556 --> 00:43:13,676
Speaker 2: So I'm down on the floor scraping basseboards, getting ready

737
00:43:14,356 --> 00:43:18,356
Speaker 2: vas and you come to this climactic moment of you know,

738
00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:22,356
Speaker 2: recounting George Jones' funeral, and then you weave into Vince

739
00:43:22,396 --> 00:43:26,116
Speaker 2: Gill singing his own weeper Go Rest High. And there

740
00:43:26,156 --> 00:43:29,916
Speaker 2: I am down on my hands and knees, sobbing as

741
00:43:30,036 --> 00:43:34,596
Speaker 2: Vince gil himself breaks down at George Jones' funeral and

742
00:43:34,596 --> 00:43:37,156
Speaker 2: cannot get himself through his own song, Go Rest High.

743
00:43:37,476 --> 00:43:39,636
Speaker 2: And so I'm in there file, you know, sobbing, tears

744
00:43:39,676 --> 00:43:42,396
Speaker 2: running in my face, and then you say something like

745
00:43:44,076 --> 00:43:46,796
Speaker 2: and if you're not crying, there's nothing I can do

746
00:43:46,836 --> 00:43:47,156
Speaker 2: for you.

747
00:43:47,196 --> 00:43:47,796
Speaker 1: I can't help you.

748
00:43:48,156 --> 00:43:48,796
Speaker 2: I can't help you.

749
00:43:48,916 --> 00:43:49,556
Speaker 1: I can't help you.

750
00:43:49,596 --> 00:43:52,956
Speaker 2: I can't help you. So what's behind your fascination with weepers?

751
00:43:55,596 --> 00:44:00,476
Speaker 1: Well, it's too easy to make someone laugh. People were

752
00:44:00,516 --> 00:44:04,716
Speaker 1: just laughing now, right, super easy making someone cry. So

753
00:44:05,436 --> 00:44:09,276
Speaker 1: under what circumstances could I make some portion of you

754
00:44:09,436 --> 00:44:16,756
Speaker 1: right now cry really hard. Right, So I'm naturally attracted

755
00:44:16,796 --> 00:44:19,676
Speaker 1: to the more difficult of the narrative tasks.

756
00:44:19,956 --> 00:44:22,156
Speaker 2: So what do you think is the line between kind

757
00:44:22,236 --> 00:44:30,196
Speaker 2: of manipulative or mawkish sentimentality on one side and emotion

758
00:44:30,596 --> 00:44:34,316
Speaker 2: that somehow is speaking to the fullness or the richness

759
00:44:34,316 --> 00:44:36,836
Speaker 2: of life for the possibilities of living life. Well, what's

760
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:38,276
Speaker 2: what's it's like?

761
00:44:38,356 --> 00:44:40,556
Speaker 1: And simple? It's whether it's you know, there are hall

762
00:44:40,716 --> 00:44:43,956
Speaker 1: there are Hallmark commercials that can get you a little weepy,

763
00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:46,716
Speaker 1: but that's not real, you know that, And then you

764
00:44:47,476 --> 00:44:49,316
Speaker 1: then you stop, and then I remember there was a

765
00:44:50,356 --> 00:44:54,076
Speaker 1: famous I say famous famous to me. It was a

766
00:44:54,116 --> 00:44:57,516
Speaker 1: Google an ad for Google for Google Chat or something.

767
00:44:57,916 --> 00:45:01,396
Speaker 1: It was a TV commercial and it's you see the

768
00:45:01,556 --> 00:45:03,676
Speaker 1: daughter who's just gone off to college, and you see

769
00:45:03,716 --> 00:45:08,396
Speaker 1: the dad who's chatting with her, and it's like the

770
00:45:08,516 --> 00:45:11,156
Speaker 1: dad's type being in the chat line, I miss you

771
00:45:11,236 --> 00:45:15,236
Speaker 1: so much, you know it's been And then you really,

772
00:45:15,316 --> 00:45:19,236
Speaker 1: you know, it's been so long since mom left us

773
00:45:19,276 --> 00:45:23,956
Speaker 1: or something, and you realize she's his only daughter, his wife,

774
00:45:23,956 --> 00:45:27,156
Speaker 1: the mom has died, and as he's typing that thing

775
00:45:27,156 --> 00:45:30,956
Speaker 1: about mom to her on Google chat, the cursor slows

776
00:45:30,956 --> 00:45:35,196
Speaker 1: down so you realize he's choking up. Right, It's insanely manipulative.

777
00:45:35,796 --> 00:45:37,276
Speaker 1: If I showed it to you right now, we're all

778
00:45:37,316 --> 00:45:41,036
Speaker 1: in tears. But that's not real, right, I want it real.

779
00:45:42,596 --> 00:45:46,036
Speaker 1: They're like you think about them, and you you ask

780
00:45:46,156 --> 00:45:49,556
Speaker 1: questions about your own life, like would I've done that?

781
00:45:49,836 --> 00:45:52,196
Speaker 1: Should I be doing that? Why am I not doing that?

782
00:45:52,876 --> 00:45:53,076
Speaker 2: Right?

783
00:45:53,396 --> 00:45:56,476
Speaker 1: Why am I not the good Samaritan? Like? That's that's

784
00:45:56,476 --> 00:45:59,436
Speaker 1: the kind of story that's important and powerful.

785
00:46:00,316 --> 00:46:02,836
Speaker 2: I got one last question. It may be one that's

786
00:46:02,836 --> 00:46:05,596
Speaker 2: easy for you to dismiss, but let me ask you

787
00:46:05,636 --> 00:46:12,876
Speaker 2: to dig for a potential answer to it. What is

788
00:46:12,916 --> 00:46:18,636
Speaker 2: there about Malcolm Gladwell that you've not given us any

789
00:46:18,676 --> 00:46:23,036
Speaker 2: glimpse of that you would be happy for people to

790
00:46:23,036 --> 00:46:23,716
Speaker 2: get a glimpse of.

791
00:46:25,676 --> 00:46:29,836
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I think a lot about work

792
00:46:31,236 --> 00:46:37,516
Speaker 1: and effort and how important effort is to me in

793
00:46:37,556 --> 00:46:41,316
Speaker 1: my own life and in my estimations of others. That

794
00:46:41,436 --> 00:46:44,276
Speaker 1: what I want to see from myself and from the

795
00:46:44,316 --> 00:46:49,196
Speaker 1: people around me is I want to see some level

796
00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:53,636
Speaker 1: of commitment and that what I as I get older,

797
00:46:53,636 --> 00:46:56,596
Speaker 1: what I'm I'm going to sound very very nineteenth century.

798
00:46:56,836 --> 00:47:01,956
Speaker 1: When I say this, I've become less and less tolerant

799
00:47:02,436 --> 00:47:05,596
Speaker 1: of idleness. I mean that in a very, very kind

800
00:47:05,596 --> 00:47:09,436
Speaker 1: of specific way, and that is, you have have to

801
00:47:09,476 --> 00:47:12,916
Speaker 1: care about something. I don't care what it is. You

802
00:47:12,996 --> 00:47:15,236
Speaker 1: have to care about something, and you have to make

803
00:47:15,276 --> 00:47:18,236
Speaker 1: a sacrifice in pursuit of that thing you care about,

804
00:47:18,876 --> 00:47:23,676
Speaker 1: and you have to try, right And if you're not caring,

805
00:47:24,996 --> 00:47:28,556
Speaker 1: putting some effort towards something and making a commitment to it,

806
00:47:28,636 --> 00:47:31,036
Speaker 1: then I, honestly I don't have any way to relate

807
00:47:31,036 --> 00:47:35,276
Speaker 1: to you anymore. I don't, I can't. I don't have

808
00:47:35,356 --> 00:47:37,956
Speaker 1: room in my life for people who aren't who don't

809
00:47:37,956 --> 00:47:39,756
Speaker 1: have a connection to whatever it is. I don't, like

810
00:47:39,796 --> 00:47:41,796
Speaker 1: I said, I don't care. I don't really care what

811
00:47:41,836 --> 00:47:44,756
Speaker 1: it is. I want someone to find something that they

812
00:47:44,756 --> 00:47:47,356
Speaker 1: apply themselves to, because if you're not doing that, I

813
00:47:47,356 --> 00:47:51,436
Speaker 1: don't understand why you're here, right. I don't think we

814
00:47:51,436 --> 00:47:55,276
Speaker 1: were put here to twiddle our thumbs. I just don't.

815
00:47:55,836 --> 00:47:58,796
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have said that at twenty five, because at

816
00:47:58,796 --> 00:48:01,876
Speaker 1: twenty five I think I was, in some sense twiddling

817
00:48:01,876 --> 00:48:04,876
Speaker 1: my thumbs. I look back on that with a little

818
00:48:04,916 --> 00:48:06,996
Speaker 1: bit of horror. You know, in my twenties. I did

819
00:48:06,996 --> 00:48:08,796
Speaker 1: what people in the twenties do. I partied a lot,

820
00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:12,316
Speaker 1: and I would sleep in until one o'clock on a Sunday,

821
00:48:12,316 --> 00:48:15,756
Speaker 1: and I would I don't understand that anymore. I don't know.

822
00:48:16,196 --> 00:48:19,156
Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is I'm not sure this feeling

823
00:48:19,156 --> 00:48:23,716
Speaker 1: I have is correct. I worry that it's ungenerous and whatever,

824
00:48:23,996 --> 00:48:26,916
Speaker 1: and but it just is. It's just like, that's what

825
00:48:27,036 --> 00:48:30,196
Speaker 1: I when I think about the people I surround myself with. Now,

826
00:48:31,276 --> 00:48:35,196
Speaker 1: I've kept the people who care about something, and I

827
00:48:35,276 --> 00:48:38,476
Speaker 1: have not kept the people who I think don't Like

828
00:48:38,476 --> 00:48:40,836
Speaker 1: I said, I don't know whether that's fair, but it

829
00:48:40,916 --> 00:48:41,716
Speaker 1: just is. You know.

830
00:48:42,676 --> 00:48:44,396
Speaker 2: Well, we thank you for the way that you have

831
00:48:44,516 --> 00:48:48,436
Speaker 2: cared and that you have sought to make a contribution.

832
00:48:49,156 --> 00:48:52,796
Speaker 2: And we're grateful for that and grateful for your presence today,

833
00:48:53,076 --> 00:48:55,316
Speaker 2: thankful for your sharing your real self with us today.

834
00:48:55,676 --> 00:49:26,076
Speaker 2: Please show your thanks to Malcolm Wadwell, You've been listening

835
00:49:26,076 --> 00:49:29,196
Speaker 2: to no small endeavor. In our interview with Malcolm Gladwell, journalist,

836
00:49:29,316 --> 00:49:32,196
Speaker 2: New York Times bestselling author of multiple books, and hosts

837
00:49:32,236 --> 00:49:36,156
Speaker 2: of the podcast of Visionist History, we gratefully acknowledge the

838
00:49:36,156 --> 00:49:40,956
Speaker 2: support of Lily Endowment Incorporated, a private philanthropic foundation supporting

839
00:49:41,036 --> 00:49:45,036
Speaker 2: the causes of community development, education and religion, and the

840
00:49:45,036 --> 00:49:47,876
Speaker 2: support of the John Templeton Foundation, whose vision is to

841
00:49:47,916 --> 00:49:52,036
Speaker 2: become a global catalyst for discoveries that contribute to human flourishing.

842
00:50:02,116 --> 00:50:03,956
Speaker 2: All right, thanks to all the stellar team that makes

843
00:50:03,956 --> 00:50:08,316
Speaker 2: this show possible. Christy Bragg, Jacob Lewis, Sophie Byrd, Tom Anderson,

844
00:50:08,396 --> 00:50:12,676
Speaker 2: Kate Hayes, Mary ebel and Brown, Carriet Herman, Jason Cheesley,

845
00:50:12,916 --> 00:50:16,436
Speaker 2: Ellis Osborn and Tim Lower. Thanks for listening and let's

846
00:50:16,476 --> 00:50:19,316
Speaker 2: keep exploring what it means to live a good life together.

847
00:50:19,996 --> 00:50:23,356
Speaker 2: No Small Endeavor is a production of pr X Tokens Media,

848
00:50:23,676 --> 00:50:26,236
Speaker 2: LLC and Great Feeling Studio.

849
00:50:29,676 --> 00:50:32,356
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode of No Small Endeavor, there

850
00:50:32,356 --> 00:50:35,476
Speaker 1: are plenty more where that came from. No Small Endeavor

851
00:50:35,516 --> 00:50:40,956
Speaker 1: releases new episodes every Thursday. Follow No Small Endeavor on

852
00:50:41,076 --> 00:50:45,436
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.