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Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language.

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Speaker 1: But he walked right into that apartment with a dead

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Speaker 1: guy's computer, and he doesn't make any effort to hide

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Speaker 1: her from at all? How hard is he trying to

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Speaker 1: keep her in the dark. Welcome to Sleuth, I'm Linda Sawyer.

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Speaker 1: This week, we are back in a Santa Ana courtroom

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Speaker 1: for our front row trial coverage of Rachel Buffett's accessory

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Speaker 1: to murder trial. Matt Murphy has prosecuted his case for

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Speaker 1: nearly a week and is ready for his closing arguments.

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Speaker 1: David Medina, on the other hand, Rachel's defense counsel, feels

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Speaker 1: so confident he has presented plenty of reasonable doubt in

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Speaker 1: the trial that he doesn't put on a single witness

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Speaker 1: for the defense. Court spectators wonder whether Rachel herself would

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Speaker 1: take the stand in her defense. After all, not more

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Speaker 1: than a month before the trial, Rachel was presented an

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Speaker 1: offer that included pleading guilty to a misdemeanor with no

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Speaker 1: jail time. She turned it down and expressed wanting her

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Speaker 1: day in court. So why did she tell the judge

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Speaker 1: she didn't think it was necessary she take the stand.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps it'll all make sense. As we listen in to

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Speaker 1: both Matt Murphy and David Medina's closing arguments to jurors.

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Speaker 1: Our sleuth guest Daniel was next. Defense counsel Scott Sanders

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Speaker 1: returns to analyze the final slummations from both counsel. So

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Speaker 1: I want to welcome back Scott Sanders to Sleuth today.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for being here, Scott. We're gonna now go to

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Speaker 1: the final closing arguments of Mr Murphy speaking to the

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Speaker 1: jurors during the Rachel Buffett Accessory to murder trial, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll stop in a few places and and talk

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Speaker 1: about what we're listening to. I want to give you

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Speaker 1: kind of an overview. First thing, there are two ways

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Speaker 1: that I can sort of go about this. There's a

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Speaker 1: you heard this morning that I get two arguments. Some

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Speaker 1: of you have Satastoris before know that there's a tactic

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Speaker 1: known as sandbagging. Okay, you see it more in the

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Speaker 1: lower ranks when people first start, where a prosecutor has

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to not talk about certain pieces of evidence

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Speaker 1: and then they wait for the defense to get up,

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Speaker 1: and then they save little nuggets and they throw that

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Speaker 1: out there when the defense can't answer it. You can

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Speaker 1: kind of see that. It's called sandbagging. It's kind of cheap.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm going to be thorough as I go

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Speaker 1: through these facts. You've been thrown off a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of information and a whole bunch of law even this

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Speaker 1: morning and those stipulations. That's probably two weeks of contested

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Speaker 1: evidence just from this morning. So very much out of

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Speaker 1: respect for the professionalism of just from Adina, and also

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Speaker 1: out of fairness to this buffet, I want to lay

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Speaker 1: out everything up front and give them an opportunity to

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Speaker 1: respond to whatever they feel they want to respond to,

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Speaker 1: or whatever they want to address. They don't have to.

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Speaker 1: So essentially, I'm going to talk about the law, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna not gonna go through every instruction again. But

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Speaker 1: there are certain basic concepts that are very important for

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Speaker 1: everybody to understand. We talked about this a little bit

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Speaker 1: during jury selection. But the law fundamentally is based on

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Speaker 1: common sense, all right, So each one of these things

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Speaker 1: should not only make sense to you. I believe when

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Speaker 1: you when you leave this experience and you go home

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Speaker 1: and you get to talk to people about it, husbands, wives, friends, whoever,

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Speaker 1: that you'll see that the law truly is it's fair.

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Speaker 1: It's based on fairness. And when we get a group

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Speaker 1: of people like we have here that agree to follow

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Speaker 1: the law, and you agree to put your lives on hold,

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Speaker 1: will you come in and discuss a matter like this.

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Speaker 1: When we do it right, the justice is going to

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Speaker 1: be done. You're going to do the right thing. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about justice and in fact, the

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Speaker 1: justice that we are hoping we can always count on

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Speaker 1: in every courtroom. But indeed, I wanted you to tell

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Speaker 1: your listeners how you feel about Matt Murphy's form of justice. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting to hear him talk about how it'll all

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Speaker 1: be laid out, how it'll all be there for you

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Speaker 1: when they're missing sort of the largest component, which is

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Speaker 1: from my perspective, what he argued in our case. So

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Speaker 1: this portrait of fairness, and even as I watch it,

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Speaker 1: not as Rachel Buffett's lawyer, he is a little difficult

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Speaker 1: to watch, and yet somehow he does manage to make

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Speaker 1: it work in his favor. That's because that jury is

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Speaker 1: limited to what they're hearing in this particular courtroom. So

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Speaker 1: it's not as if a ship in out of the

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Speaker 1: blue our trial. They're not going to hear any of it.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to have a sense of what's there,

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Speaker 1: so they're going to hear what he wants them to hear. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know the defense has a role in that too, Right,

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Speaker 1: they put on their case and the prosecution put on

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Speaker 1: their case, and he's going to effectively make his arguments.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. Let's go back and listen to his argument. Continue. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go through after I get through the law,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to go through the objective evidence sort of

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Speaker 1: piece by piece in this and we can figure out

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Speaker 1: what somebody is thinking regardless of what they tell us. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we do it all the time. We do it every day,

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Speaker 1: and the law, as you just heard, empowers you to

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Speaker 1: make decisions like that. So as the guys trucking into

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Speaker 1: the movie theater parking lot and they say, hey, you

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Speaker 1: can't park your car there, and he goes, oh, I

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Speaker 1: was just here to get some mushrooms or comments or whatever.

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Speaker 1: What he says is one thing, But we figure out

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Speaker 1: what he's actually thinking based on a review of the

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Speaker 1: objective evidence. In that example, it's traitor Jone's closes at ten,

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Speaker 1: opening out of Star Wars Latest Jedi whatever. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: how we do it. We look at things objectively and

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Speaker 1: we go through piece by piece. All right. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I feel like when I listened to him at that moment,

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Speaker 1: I get a little concerned because I think what he's

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Speaker 1: suggesting is that just go with what I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: like you're allowed to infer here, You're allowed to listen

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Speaker 1: to my narrative and make your assumptions based on that.

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Speaker 1: That seems so nebulous to me. I don't find that.

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Speaker 1: The troubling issue for me. It's that what he's saying

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Speaker 1: is if you look at the evidence, you and determine

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Speaker 1: someone's intent, and we do do that every day. He's

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Speaker 1: absolutely right about it. But let's watch the way he

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Speaker 1: argues why his interpretation of the evidence should be viewed

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Speaker 1: as he sees it here, and let's keep in mind

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Speaker 1: what he said in another case. So to me, it's

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Speaker 1: the issue that's I'm waiting for is to hear how

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Speaker 1: he's going to interpret the same pieces of evidence in

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Speaker 1: these two cases and then tell jurors in this courtroom

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Speaker 1: don't worry, it's an easy task. Just use your logic.

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Speaker 1: So you see, but based on what he's telling them,

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Speaker 1: will I'm based upon what he's arguing. It's not so

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Speaker 1: much the control of the evidence, because I said, both

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Speaker 1: sides have the right to put on the evidence and

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Speaker 1: that evidence is before them. But now the evidence when

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there a range of definition when you

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Speaker 1: talk about evidence when you're talking and closing arguments and

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Speaker 1: you really don't have to prove without any sense of

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Speaker 1: this specific evidence. Is why I'm telling you this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it feels like in closing argument there's a lot of latitude.

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Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Well, it's the latitude to argue. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there is, there's wide latitude on both sides to argue

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Speaker 1: and inter and interpret evidence for that there is. It's

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Speaker 1: just what you want to do and what you know

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Speaker 1: and believe is the right interpretation. That's where it gets

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Speaker 1: very difficult. You're going to hear a lawyer in a

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Speaker 1: case in closing argument make the interpretation that they think

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Speaker 1: will help get them to the outcome they want. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that is part of being a lawyer. But that's what

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Speaker 1: you say, though, Why it's it's such a trust based system, right,

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Speaker 1: That's right? It is because and usually you don't have

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Speaker 1: to worry about these things as much because usually folks

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Speaker 1: are going about it in a way in which, of

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Speaker 1: course you're going to argue the same way in every case,

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Speaker 1: because that's what number one, what you're supposed to do

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Speaker 1: in number two. It just makes sense logically. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to even imagine the notion of going into different court

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Speaker 1: rooms and asking that evidence be interpreted differently. But usually

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Speaker 1: our cases are not on TV. Usually there's not recordings

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Speaker 1: where we can listen to it and watch it, and

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Speaker 1: so I think maybe I've assumed it's happened less than

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Speaker 1: it has. Let's go back to Matt Murphy. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go through a little bit about what Daniel Wasnyac

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Speaker 1: had to be thinking, particularly in relationship to Rachel Buffett.

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Speaker 1: All Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about that with you.

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Speaker 1: In other words, everybody knows he's a liar, everybody knows

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Speaker 1: he's a horrific murderer. We get that. The question is

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Speaker 1: how much really was she in the dark. Then I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go through and I'm going to talk about again,

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Speaker 1: just piece by piece objective evidence was what did she

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Speaker 1: absolutely positively have to know at the time she sat

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Speaker 1: down with those police officers, then I'm gonna go through

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Speaker 1: the itimens to the police, and we're gonna we're gonna

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Speaker 1: put it all all together as we go along. Now,

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Speaker 1: the most important concept in any criminal case is the

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Speaker 1: idea of reasonable doubt. All right, So let me just

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Speaker 1: read this to you again briefly. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 1: It's proof that leaves you with an abiding conviction that

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Speaker 1: the charge is true. The evidence need not eliminate all

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Speaker 1: possible doubt, because everything in life is open to some

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Speaker 1: possible or imaginary doubt. Now, because this is common law,

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Speaker 1: because this is old and it goes back hundreds of

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Speaker 1: years in we would use this kind of language in

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Speaker 1: our day to day conversation. Abiding conviction. Now it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a little archaic, but it means the same thing.

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Speaker 1: The word abiding means something stays with you. Conviction regarding

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Speaker 1: a subject to our topic means that, based on your life,

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Speaker 1: your common sense, your experience, and carefully discussing with your

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Speaker 1: fellow jurors, you believe somebody did it, and you believe

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Speaker 1: it's strongly enough that it is abiding where it stays

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Speaker 1: with you. We hear this term reasonable doubt. Oftentimes people

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Speaker 1: confuse it with the term shadow of a doubt, you know,

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Speaker 1: where we have to prove something beyond a certainty. All

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Speaker 1: this means is that you believe she's good for it,

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Speaker 1: and you believe it's strongly enough so that in a week, month,

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Speaker 1: or year you can lick yourself in the mirror and say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I still think she did it. I

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Speaker 1: still think she knew and acted with the requisent intent,

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Speaker 1: nothing more, nothing less. It's the highest standard of proof

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Speaker 1: in the law, but it has not proved to certainty.

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Speaker 1: This is based on our life experience, our common sense,

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Speaker 1: and ladies and gentlemen, you folks are experts when it

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Speaker 1: comes to human behavior. Five years of experience on the earth,

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Speaker 1: all right, you know how people are going to act.

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Speaker 1: You know what people are gonna say when they're innocent,

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Speaker 1: when they're guilty. You know what. You were the experts

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Speaker 1: on that. So why do you think Matt Murphy's talking

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Speaker 1: about abiding? Why why is he bringing up that concept?

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Speaker 1: He's laying out the standard for them. He wants to

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Speaker 1: get ahead of it. He wants to show, as you

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Speaker 1: can see from the beginning of this argument, he wants

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Speaker 1: to say up front that I'm a person who's going

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Speaker 1: to talk about all issues, good and bad, things that

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Speaker 1: are more challenging, less challenging. I'm not sandbagging, he's telling

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Speaker 1: the jurors. So he wants to get ahead of all

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Speaker 1: these issues. He's worried, as all prosecutors worry that jurors

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Speaker 1: will think the standards higher than they believe it is.

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Speaker 1: So he's telling them. Look, I'm being upfront with you.

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Speaker 1: This is the standard. It is long lasting, but it's

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Speaker 1: not beyond all possible doubt. Let's go back to court.

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Speaker 1: So witnesses, you already know this. You must judge the

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Speaker 1: credibility of witnesses. That's a to you who to believe

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Speaker 1: and not believe and deciding whether testimony is true and accurate.

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Speaker 1: Use your common sense and experience. And again you keep

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Speaker 1: seeing this phrase common sense over and over again throughout

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Speaker 1: the law, throughout the instructions. Do not automatically reject testimony

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Speaker 1: just because of the inconsis, inistencies, or conflicts. Consider whether

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Speaker 1: the differences are important or not. Sometimes people honestly forget

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Speaker 1: things or make mistakes about what they remember. Also, two

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Speaker 1: witnesses may two people may witness the same event yet

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Speaker 1: see it or hear it differently. Okay, again, that's very fundamental.

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Speaker 1: Now you heard an instruction this morning on aiding abetting.

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Speaker 1: This applies to the law of murder. There was some

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Speaker 1: conversation that you listened to in the interview with miss

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Speaker 1: Buffett with Sergeant Everett, and he was talking about if

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Speaker 1: you're actually helping somebody before the murder. That's the concept

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Speaker 1: of aiding and abetting. If somebody helps in the commission

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Speaker 1: of a crime, that means they're good for the crime. Again,

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Speaker 1: very fundamental. The law is that way. It's been that

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Speaker 1: way for hundreds of years, and it should be that way.

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Speaker 1: In other words, if you assist somebody in any way

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Speaker 1: in the commission of a crime, that means you're also

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Speaker 1: good for the crime. That is totally different. And accessory

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Speaker 1: after the fact, right, Just so everybody understands, accessory after

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Speaker 1: the fact is the same whether they help somebody steal

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Speaker 1: a really expensive bike get away with it, whether they

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Speaker 1: commit murder, everything in between. As long as it's a felony,

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Speaker 1: it's the crime of being an accessory. Why does this

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Speaker 1: matter in our analysis? It matters in our analysis if

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Speaker 1: she believes, If she believes that Daniel Wosniac helped Sam

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Speaker 1: killed Julie, or he's involved in any way before the

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Speaker 1: murder and aids in a bet in any way helps

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Speaker 1: him anyway. That satisfizes the element for knowledge for the

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Speaker 1: purposes of a murder to be an accessory after the fact.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, I'm gonna come back and talk about that.

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Speaker 1: That's where aiding and a a betting fits in. Just so

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Speaker 1: everybody understands, we're talking about Daniel Wisniac's involvement in the murder.

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Speaker 1: In other words, she can know every detail about what

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Speaker 1: he did, but the law says she doesn't have to.

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Speaker 1: All she has to know he said he's involved in

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Speaker 1: the murder of Julie before Julie is killed. So let's

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Speaker 1: discuss how Mr Murphy ultimately came up with Rachel's charges

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Speaker 1: In your estimation, Well, I think that he decided what

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Speaker 1: he thought he could prove, what he had his best

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Speaker 1: chances with proving, and he made a call, and his

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Speaker 1: call was he didn't feel confident that he would get

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Speaker 1: a murder conviction. Let's get back to his argument motive.

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Speaker 1: People are not required to prove that the defendant had

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Speaker 1: a motive to commit the crime charged. In reaching your verdict.

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Speaker 1: You may, however, consider whether the defensive had a motive.

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Speaker 1: Having a motive maybe a factor tending to show that

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Speaker 1: the defendant is guilty, Not having a motive, maybe a

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Speaker 1: factor tending to show the defendant is not guilty. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to talk about motive in just a minute. All

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Speaker 1: available evidence, this was something that we discussed during jury selection.

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Speaker 1: Neither side is required to call all witnesses who may

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Speaker 1: have information about the case, or to produce all physical

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Speaker 1: evidence that might be relevant. Perfectly appropriate from Mr Medina

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Speaker 1: not to call witnesses. Also, you heard a whole laundry

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Speaker 1: list of different people that we did not call to

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Speaker 1: the stand. Law says we don't have to do that.

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Speaker 1: So we're good as long as you consider the stipulations. Uh,

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Speaker 1: fairly for both sides. Accessory. So these are the elements.

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Speaker 1: Another person committed a felony. Everything from expensive bike theft,

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Speaker 1: drug dealing, robbery, burglary, name your felony, all the way

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Speaker 1: up to murder. It is a felony, right, and in

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Speaker 1: this particular case, we've got two burgal murders. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's what we've elected. The defendant knew that the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: had committed a felony, or that the perpetrator had been

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Speaker 1: charged with or convicted of a felony. After the felony

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Speaker 1: had been committed, the defendant either harvard, concealed or aided

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator. We've got some additional instructions on that. When

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Speaker 1: the defendant acted, she intended that the perpetrator avoid escape, arrest, trial, conviction,

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Speaker 1: or punishment. And they throw in sort of every descriptive term.

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Speaker 1: It's to help somebody avoid consequences for what they did. Now,

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Speaker 1: language here is also important. When the defendant acted. What's

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Speaker 1: a good example of that. We don't even have to

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Speaker 1: go outside of this case and not comparing there's no

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Speaker 1: comparative fault analysis here, but as an example of that,

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Speaker 1: there's no better way to understand that than to look

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Speaker 1: at Tim Wozniak. When he acted. He took possession of

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Speaker 1: that backpack and he threw it over the fence. He

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Speaker 1: obviously was racked with guilt. He's confused. He's thrown into

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Speaker 1: that situation by his little brother. Remember, he shows up

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Speaker 1: that apartment complex, he's in an argument with his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: and he needs to get gas, and next thing he knows,

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Speaker 1: he's driving off with a backpack filled with carnage, all right,

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Speaker 1: So he thinks about it, he talks it over with

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Speaker 1: his friend and they made the right decision. He decided

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Speaker 1: to do the right thing. But when he acted, he

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Speaker 1: had all the requisite intent. He knew it was involved

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Speaker 1: in a homicide, no clue how deep his brother was

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Speaker 1: into this thing. But he made that decision and it

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Speaker 1: got thrown over the fence. And even though he did

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Speaker 1: the right thing later, okay, he went through legal process

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Speaker 1: and that's another perfect example. He committed the crime of

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Speaker 1: PC thirty two. Yeah, well, I have a lot to

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Speaker 1: say about this because Tim was wasn't act the way

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Speaker 1: he just framed him almost as an innocent dupe and

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Speaker 1: a victim of his brother is just so far from

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Speaker 1: the reality of of what happened and Tim's role in

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Speaker 1: all this. And I'm going to get into great length

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Speaker 1: in a future episode about his role. But suffice to

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Speaker 1: say that Tim himself told me that that d A,

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Speaker 1: he's a great guy and he's taking good care of

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Speaker 1: him and he feels like he pretty much duped everybody

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Speaker 1: and came to your trial pretty drunk because he didn't

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Speaker 1: want to make sense. As he told me, he really

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Speaker 1: wanted to sort of be all over the place, and

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Speaker 1: he was quite frankly, and more importantly, based on all

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Speaker 1: of my interviews and my investigation about this, it appears

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Speaker 1: that there was some understanding between Matt Murphy and Tim

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Speaker 1: Wozniak's defense counsel. So I find it a bit startling

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Speaker 1: that that Matt really makes such an effort to explain

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Speaker 1: away Tim's role and too to suggest that he really

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Speaker 1: is not at all involved, And I just I don't,

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Speaker 1: I'm just I find it very disturbing for me. The

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Speaker 1: issue of whether there's an understanding, there's some type of

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Speaker 1: unspoken agreement, is supported by a few different things just

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Speaker 1: looking at the circumstantial of it. It's first, it's incredibly

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Speaker 1: unusual to hear of a lawyer putting their client on

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Speaker 1: the stand in a case as serious as this with

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Speaker 1: absolutely no understanding of what will happen. Um to think

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Speaker 1: that he would actually go up on the stand and

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Speaker 1: have um no sense whether he's doing a day, no

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Speaker 1: time or three years, eight months is inconsistent with my

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Speaker 1: experience the last twenty five years. If it happened, it

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Speaker 1: would be something historical for that to take place. The

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Speaker 1: second thing is just what Tim Wozniak said when he testified.

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Speaker 1: I asked him the question, do you believe you won't

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Speaker 1: do time and custody? His answer, yes, your belief, your

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Speaker 1: understanding as you're done with doing any more time. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Now he then tries to walk that back and say,

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I believe that, but I'm entitled

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Speaker 1: to believe what he said at that moment, not his

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Speaker 1: changes that take place afterwards. And of course that's actually

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Speaker 1: what happened. He did no additional time and custody, so

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Speaker 1: it all kind of fits together. Tim pled guilty to

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Speaker 1: the felony and didn't do any time. Right, So he's

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Speaker 1: on the stand saying I think I'm done. I'm doing

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Speaker 1: no more time. He gets no more time. My experience

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Speaker 1: as lawyers, don't put somebody up on the stand without

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Speaker 1: having some understanding in that kind of situation. That's your

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Speaker 1: job to protect your client, right. So it's very difficult

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Speaker 1: to believe that. But I have Tim Wasniak's own words.

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Speaker 1: So for someone to say, how could you say or

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Speaker 1: how could you suggest that there was a wink and

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Speaker 1: a that it's Tim Wasniak saying it. So to the

359
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Speaker 1: extent somebody has an issue with me reaching that conclusion,

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Speaker 1: blamed Tim Wasniak. He used those words. Then I've got

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Speaker 1: a deal afterwards that takes place. But and I have

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Speaker 1: an interview with Tim Wasniak after the trial exactly. So

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Speaker 1: you then share to me the fact that you have

364
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Speaker 1: an interview in which he said, specifically, I was led

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Speaker 1: to believe before I took the stand that I wasn't

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Speaker 1: doing any more time. So what else would a lawyer believe?

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Speaker 1: What else? What are their conclusion? If you were in

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Speaker 1: my seat, could you reach other than the one I have.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to Matt Murphy. Let's go through the

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Speaker 1: letter of the law. Here. Certain laws or affirmative falsehoods

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Speaker 1: two authorities, when made with the rexit knowledge and intent,

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Speaker 1: may constitute the aid or concealment contemplated by thirty two.

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Speaker 1: Now in our case, we have both aid and concealment.

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Speaker 1: We've got both. However, the mere passive failure to reveal

375
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Speaker 1: a crime, and again this is this should be common sense.

376
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Speaker 1: You know, if you were to go and write this

377
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Speaker 1: law yourself, as a group, you would come up with

378
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Speaker 1: this something very similar to this. However, the mere passive

379
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Speaker 1: failure to reveal a crime. The refusal to give information

380
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Speaker 1: or the denial of knowledge motivated by self interest does

381
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Speaker 1: not constitute the crime of accessory. So there you go.

382
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Speaker 1: Isn't that what she's doing? Well, I think that her

383
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Speaker 1: interest is self interest and she's refusing to tell the truth.

384
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Speaker 1: She's refusing to cooperate for self interest. So he's saying

385
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Speaker 1: that's not accessory, right, because the accessory law requires that

386
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Speaker 1: you're helping someone else. You're helping someone else get away

387
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Speaker 1: with the crime. So that's why I keep asking, isn't

388
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Speaker 1: that what you were trying to tell me when you

389
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: have said to me in the past that in order

390
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 1: to prove accessory, he has to prove that she wanted

391
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Speaker 1: to help Dan when that was clearly not the case.

392
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: That's right, she clearly wanted to help herself. And here,

393
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Speaker 1: in order to fit it into the law of accessory,

394
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: he's saying, it has to be for protecting him. So

395
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 1: you have said to me before, Scott that you feel

396
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Speaker 1: that it would be tough for him to prove accessory,

397
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: because there's no question by the time those jailhouse calls

398
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: were happening, she already knew everything right, probably knew it

399
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: well before. But certainly by then she knew it, and

400
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: so anything that she was saying or doing was all

401
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: to preserve herself, was to protect herself. So accessory. He

402
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: just the way he just described it, the way I

403
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: just heard it was that if you are avoiding talking

404
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 1: to police, or you're not answering questions, or you choose

405
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 1: not to answer questions to protect yourself is not accessory. Right.

406
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: So is that? I mean, basically what he's just saying

407
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: right there is is that your is that your reason

408
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: why you had said to me you found you felt

409
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: that it is going to be tough for him to

410
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: prove accessory because she didn't really care about Dan at

411
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: that point. She wasn't protecting Dan. No, Okay, No, I

412
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: think that the way he's presenting this case, it is

413
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: an accessory case. But there's an undercurrent of that this

414
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: is really an accessory case. It's so difficult to believe

415
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: when you kind of pull this all back, that this

416
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: could possibly be about protecting Dan. But he has those charges,

417
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: so he's doing an argument here. It's a separate issue

418
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Speaker 1: from why he didn't prosecute her. He thought he didn't

419
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: believe the evidence was strong enough to assure that that

420
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Speaker 1: verdict would come. Let's go back to Matt Murphy. When

421
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Speaker 1: the police show up at our doors and they say

422
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: we would like you to cooperate in this, and you

423
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: say yes, and then you say, quote, I will be

424
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: completely honest, and you lie through your teeth. That's a

425
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: different story. That's where we cross the line, all right.

426
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Speaker 1: What is totality of the evidence meaning? It means that

427
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: as a jury, you consider every piece of evidence in

428
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: light of every other piece of evidence, almost like dots

429
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: in a painting. And this is from Paris Peeler's Day Off.

430
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: It's one of my favorites. Don't judge me, um. This

431
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: is the scene where they're at the Chicago Metropolitan Museum

432
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: and Cameron is looking at the painting and it it

433
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 1: starts out where he's looking at a single dot, and

434
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: then it backs up and the farther away we get,

435
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: the more the image that we can see. And I

436
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: am no scholar, especially not an art but it's a technique.

437
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: I looked it up. It's called pointali is um just

438
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: little points of color and when you look at the

439
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: whole thing together you see the picture very clearly. Re

440
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 1: trials are very similar to that. You take each piece

441
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 1: of evidence, you look at everything in light of everything else.

442
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: Your job is to mix it all together and look

443
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: at everything in light of everything else. You consider the

444
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: totality of the evidence. All right, So the charges here,

445
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: we just have two very simple charges. One is the

446
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: interview outside of Noah's apartment when that woman told Sergeant

447
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: Everett that she saw a third guy in her apartment.

448
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: And the second charge is the interview at the police department.

449
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: Now I count nineteen separate lives in that interview. I'm

450
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: asking you to convict on one of them. Judge is

451
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: going to give you what's called a unanimity instruction. I

452
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: think there's two real doozies, all right, and you can

453
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: choose between either one of them. Really, I mean you

454
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: can choose between any of them. You just have to

455
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: be unanimous as to which lie you've decided on. Okay,

456
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: And I'm going to go through those in detail. We

457
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: begin our objective analysis here by legal concept known as

458
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: companionship and relationship with principle. In other words, how does

459
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: she know the guy who committed the crime? Al Right?

460
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: See hitchhiking is a stranger, old college roommate or is

461
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 1: it something substantially closer than that. Let's go through what

462
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: we know about her relationship. They've known each other for

463
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: five years. They've lived together in three different places. They've

464
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: been dating, the way she put it is seeing each

465
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: other on a daily basis for over two years. They

466
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 1: lived together in a very small apartment. They drive together

467
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: everywhere they go because he doesn't have a car. The

468
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: socialized together. They have the same friends, they act together

469
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: in the same play. They sleep together on a small bed.

470
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: We know that she is dominant in the relationship, and

471
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: I also submit to you, ladies and gentlemen. She's a

472
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: lot smarter than he is too. They are engaged, and

473
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: not only are they engaged, they're getting married in one week.

474
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: So when we're talking about the cascade of possible human relationships,

475
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: these people are about as close as you can get.

476
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: They are inseparable. The motive here, again, it's not an element,

477
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: but when we really think about it, for all the

478
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: reasons that somebody could have to kill somebody, bad blood, revenge,

479
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: bar fight, whatever. If you watch those shows on TV,

480
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: the datelines, the forty hours, all that sort of thing,

481
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: there's a different different episode every week, and there's always

482
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: a the motives to commit murder are as married as

483
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: as human beings are. What's the motive in this particular case.

484
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 1: It was to pay their rent, It was to pay

485
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: their bills, it was to stop their eviction. It was

486
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: to pay off their overdrawn bank accounts and go on

487
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: their honeymoon. As far as benefits go, she stands to

488
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: benefit every single bit as much as Daniel Wasniak. So

489
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: we've got this. We start out with a very close

490
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: relationship where they're inseparable, and he is planning this diabolical,

491
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: horrific double murder right under her nose. She's been charged

492
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: with being an accessory after the fact. So at the

493
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: very outset, let's give her the benefit of the doubt

494
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: and say she has absolutely nothing to do with the

495
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: planning and the murder at all. Let's start there. That

496
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: means Daniel Wasniak is planning this whole thing by himself. Okay,

497
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: So the question is how hard is he really based

498
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: on the objective evidence? How hard is he really keeping

499
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: her in the dark? How hard is he really trying

500
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: to make sure she doesn't find anything out? So let's

501
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: go through what we know. Number one, she knows he's

502
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: a liar, she's known him for five years. She knows

503
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: she can't trust anything he says, so at the very

504
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 1: beginning she's unnotice and she admits it. We also know

505
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: that he is a terrible liar. You saw the clip.

506
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: Now every day that he's with her, it's not gonna

507
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: be He's not going to be ground down after a

508
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: two hour interview with really experienced, hard working police officers.

509
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: But you've got to actually see him lying to her

510
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: in action and what did you see looking at his feet?

511
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: And this is involved Sam, and he's mumbling, he's a

512
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: lousy liar. He's a bad actor, which is why he's

513
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: doing community theater instead of winning Oscars. And he is

514
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: a lousy liar and she knows it. Okay, so the

515
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: resputing of lies. He is not. So when he's going

516
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: through this whole thing step by step, okay, she's smarter.

517
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: She pays attention. Okay, So as we go through that,

518
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: ask yourself, how much is she really being fooled? So

519
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: he plans both murders right under her nose in an

520
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: apartment where she lives, on a computer that she uses. Okay,

521
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: her quote on that was I used both as computers

522
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: all the time. That's page fifty four for interview. So

523
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: we all know how Google works, right press do a

524
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: search for A, you press the letter A. The latest

525
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: searches on as pop up. Right, we got how to

526
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: hide a body? How loud is a gunshot? She's using

527
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: this computer, ladies and gentlemen, So there you go. It's

528
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: pretty stunny because what people can't see is how he's

529
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: the facial expressions as he's speaking, as he's talking about

530
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: the possibility that she would not know, and he's has

531
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: this smirking expression which is sort of like, come on, everybody,

532
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 1: we know the truth here, and the truth is she

533
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: knows throughout this whole thing. There's no way he's keeping

534
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: it from her, and he's now enumerating why they should

535
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: believe that on a logical level as well. But it's

536
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: very much a communication of we all know it's quite

537
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: obvious here, and that's that she knew from the beginning.

538
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: So to watch that is pretty incredible because this is

539
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: where it really departs from our case. We are really

540
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: in the heart of a very new and different version

541
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: about Rachel Buffett and what queue she was picking up on.

542
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: Now it's kind of like, come on, stupid and really

543
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: maps it out. He does. He does. We mapped out

544
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: the same thing. That's what's so fascinating. We are we

545
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: made the same arguments about why she would have known,

546
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: and he told our jury that those are the types

547
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: of things where you give the benefit of the doubt

548
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: to people like Rachel Buffett. Let's go back to the courtroom.

549
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: He targets two people that she knows. Alright, so again

550
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: this is the analysis, and how hard is he trying

551
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: to keep her in the dark? And we're gonna we're

552
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 1: gonna give her the stuff in our analysis, But what

553
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: else we know? He walks Sam right into their apartment

554
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: right before he murder him. He puts her in a

555
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: position that she's going to know. He's literally the last

556
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: person to see Sam her before he disappears. Why does

557
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: he do that? He's up in Sam's apartment, he's learning

558
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: Sam to the military base. If he's so worried about

559
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: her figuring this out, why does he go down to

560
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: the apartment Sam's driving, doesn't have a car. Right before

561
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: he commits murder. He walks the victim right in in

562
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: front of her face. Is he trying to keep her

563
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: in the dark? We know, ladies and gentlemen. He comes

564
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: back to that apartment with a variety of items, and

565
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 1: if he's trying to hide from her, just makes no

566
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: sense that they ever crossed the threshold of the camp

567
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: to Martinique apartment building. Right, he comes back to four

568
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: hundred bucks in cash. She sees that, she knows that.

569
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 1: In fact, she even knows that it winds up being

570
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: three eight. He's got Sam's car Okay park down the street.

571
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: Maybe she doesn't see that he's got Sam's wallet. We

572
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: know that because it's found in the backpack, and that's

573
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 1: something that he has to take from him at the theater.

574
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: He's got his wallet and his idea. But let's say

575
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: she doesn't see that he's got Sam's keys, And again

576
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: that's one of those things that ultimately we're gonna give

577
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: to her. Let's say she doesn't notice the keys. How

578
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 1: about Sam's computer and Sam's cell phone. They're broke, they're

579
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: getting married, They're beyond broke, they're in debt. She's on

580
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: the hook for that bail bondsman. Right, So it's a

581
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: subtle little comment, I'm on a payment plan to the

582
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: bail bondsman. They're about to get married, and he walks

583
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: in with a computer, that's Sam's computer, ladies and gentlemen,

584
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: and he puts it as he hid it in a drawer.

585
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: Do you put it down in Sam's car? Do you

586
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: find an alcove to put it in? Outside? He puts

587
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: it on a shelf where anybody in the living room

588
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: can see. And right next to it there's a bunch

589
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 1: of wires sticking up. How hard is he trying to

590
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: hide this from her? What woman who's about to get

591
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: married to a guy like this isn't asking that question?

592
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: Whose computer is that? I mean, that's a question that

593
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: would be asked, ladies and gentlemen, whether you're broke or not,

594
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: whether you're about to get married or not. Your husband

595
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: and wife walks in with a laptop, that's a totally

596
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: normal question. Look, I mean it's an apartment building. He

597
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: doesn't have to bring it inside at all. I think,

598
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: and I don't have to prove it. I think that

599
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: if he had the time, he's gonna start sending email

600
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: messages pretending to be Sam. I mean, that's why he

601
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 1: took it. I don't have to prove it, just a theory.

602
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,439
Speaker 1: But he walked right into that apartment with a dead

603
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: guy's computer, and he doesn't make any effort to hide

604
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: her from her at all. How hard is he trying

605
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: to keep her in the dark. There's too much there

606
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: to Let's not talk about it right now, because that's

607
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: a law. I mean, this is incredible what he's doing,

608
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 1: how he's framing Rachel. Now is what you want to discuss. Well,

609
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 1: I can't believe what I'm watching. We've we've hit a

610
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: different spot now, you know, if you looked at me,

611
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: my mouth was open. I can't believe literally, what's what

612
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: he's doing right here? This is crazy. This is at

613
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: a different level to me to hear this argument at

614
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: this point and to say, basically, she had to know

615
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: from the beginning. There's eighteen factors. He's mocking any notion

616
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: that she could not have known at an early stage.

617
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: He's bringing the computer in front of everything he's listing.

618
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 1: You see a lawyer going to the jury. Are you

619
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: kidding me that the defense will ever possibly make an

620
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: argument other than Rachel Buffett knew from almost the beginning.

621
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: He's not hiding it. It's all out there. He brings

622
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: the person who's about to be killed. This isn't a

623
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: different level, right now to me, this is you know,

624
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: maybe I I'm forgetting the opening, but to hear this

625
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 1: in closing and you compare this to what we heard,

626
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: it's so vastly different in terms of what she had

627
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: to know. You know, we're going to get to it,

628
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm assuming at some point. But what he says in

629
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: our case about what she may or may not have known,

630
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: it's hard to tell what she knew. What might she

631
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: have known being with a guy like him who knows

632
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 1: that's all speculative. And now he's turning to the jury

633
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: and saying, you are idiots if you don't realize the

634
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: obvious truth that's before you, which is that she knew

635
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: the whole time, or she was blinded by the light.

636
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: That's not what he's saying. I mean, realistically, he is

637
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: not saying that in any way. He's saying, this smart

638
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: person who would notice the computer that would notice all

639
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: these factors, not in a zillion years? Is she not

640
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: going to ask the question? And the fact that he's

641
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: not hiding anything says he's only not hiding it because

642
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: she knows exactly what he's doing. And so look at

643
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: one of the points he makes, see him disappears and

644
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: the last person that's with him is Dan Wozniak, and

645
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett is there when that's happening. So he said

646
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: that Sam was driving, so he had no reason to

647
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: bring Sam back down to the apartment. Right. This is

648
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: really incredible. I mean, this is really incredible. And for

649
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: people that are are listening, you're not sitting in the

650
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: jury proceedings in our case, so you can't see how

651
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: completely different this is to hear a lawyer say so compelling, Lee,

652
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: and he is compelling. That's one of the trouble spots.

653
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: He's really good here, he's really believable, and he's right,

654
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: by the way, this was all logical stuff. I mean,

655
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: it never made any sense that she didn't know it

656
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: didn't That never made any sense when you look at

657
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: all this these this constellation of factors. It never made

658
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: any sense. And you didn't need as many factors as

659
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: we have here. But what this is not the interpretation

660
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 1: he presented in our case, you usually are not going

661
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 1: to hear about it for a very very long period

662
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: of time. So I think you know, look, the nature

663
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: of the practice of law in a county as large

664
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: as Oranges, you're going to move to your next case.

665
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: You know all these lawyers, and that's not a fault

666
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: of them, that's all of us. You're going to move

667
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: to your next case. So you don't think that there's

668
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: any second thoughts or any kind of doubts with a

669
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: judge who has a ruling and then sort of looks

670
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: at and goes, Look, judges are just like anybody else,

671
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 1: and if they're interested in analyzing and reexamining their conduct,

672
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,320
Speaker 1: then of course there's room for doubt in all sorts

673
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: of situations. I just don't know what Judge Connley's practices,

674
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: and he's not responsible for analyzing what takes place in

675
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: the following trial. He had before him what he had

676
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: before him in our case. But this is all new,

677
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 1: This isn't This is all new information that's coming out now,

678
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: and and it's pretty important information. And this is information

679
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: and evidence like closing and arguments and opening arguments are

680
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: considered evidence, right, So he didn't have the benefit of

681
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 1: this new evidence, right because he was just working off

682
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,240
Speaker 1: of the preliminary and his trial. So they're not evidence

683
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,439
Speaker 1: in the sense of there not evidence related to the crime,

684
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: but their evidence related to the issue of inconsistent arguments.

685
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: So it's it's new evidence that on the appellate level,

686
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 1: it's this argument that Mr Murphy's making is certainly going

687
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: to be presented in the Waznia case, and therefore the

688
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: judges Connolly's ruling in your case it really doesn't have

689
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: any impact, right, it doesn't have any impact because of

690
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: the fact that we have such new information since that

691
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: since your trial. Well, I don't know that it won't

692
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: have any impact because one of the things. We're getting

693
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: a little technical here, But because we raised it in

694
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: our case, it's something that can be brought up on

695
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: the direct appeal. There's a direct appeal, and there's a

696
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: there's habeas corpus appeal. And so because we raise it

697
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: in a new trial motion after the trial, the first

698
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: level of pell council can raise it. This new evidence,

699
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: which is the evidence of the closing arguments and things

700
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: that took place in the trial in Rachel's trial are

701
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: things that can be brought at that second level of

702
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 1: appeal and the habeas proceedings. So let's go back to

703
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: that trial. Now here's another thing. Let's think about it.

704
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: He's planning this murder, right, He's spent weeks putting this

705
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: plot together, right, He's gonna kill Julie as a decoy

706
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: to explain why nobody can find Sam, but he's still

707
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: taking money out. The tragedy of that is that it's

708
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: a stupid plan because he's got his cell phone. All

709
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: he needs to do is send some text messages on

710
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: his cell phone and the only people that are gonna

711
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: be looking for him are poor Stephen Roquell, her our

712
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: son was supposed to come as soon as the police

713
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: see those Afghan war Vett, who decides he's broken up

714
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 1: with his girlfriend and wants some time alone, is the

715
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: lowest end of the priority. He could have drained the

716
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: entire bank accounts by the time they figured that out.

717
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: Girl in apartment brutally murdered with potential dangerous, armed man

718
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: on the loose is going to get every cop in

719
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: California looking for him. So the tragedy is it's it's

720
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: a it's a horrific plan because Julie did not need

721
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 1: to die, but it was his plan. He's had time

722
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: to think about it. So all the places, and again,

723
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: if he's trying to keep Rachel in the dark, of

724
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: all the places that he could kill Julie next to

725
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: their own apartment. Sam HER's apartment is probably the second

726
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 1: worst place in the world. Right, He's got his keys,

727
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: he's got his cell phone, and he's got his car.

728
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: He can lure her anywhere anywhere he wants, right, think

729
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: about it. And she is a loyal, dedicated friend. And

730
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: you saw you see that. The glimpse of her personality

731
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 1: is look at those text messages. She was a She

732
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: was a beautiful young woman who was trying to help

733
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: a friend. And if he had said meet me in

734
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: the parking lot downstairs, He's got Sam's wallet, He's got

735
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: Sam's car. He can kill her in the parking lot

736
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: downstairs and frames Sam just as easily. If he's worried

737
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: about Rachel finding out. Instead, where does he lure her?

738
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: Learns her to Sam's apartment, which we know is directly

739
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: above their apartment. Okay, so the entire world that he

740
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: can choose to commit this murder, he picks pretty much

741
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: the worst place to do it. If he's trying to

742
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: keep Rachel in the dark, I mean he lives directly

743
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: above him. He's hustling Julie along to commit the murder

744
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: at a time that Daniel Wasniak knows having lived with

745
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: her for two and a half years. She's guaranteed to

746
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: be awake at midnight at eleven o eight. Where are

747
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: you just about back? And you come by? I don't

748
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: want to be up lade? Is he trying to keep

749
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: this from her? We know there's no efforts of silence

750
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 1: at firearm, Ladies and gentlemen, there's no pillow with a

751
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 1: hole in it, there's no feathers, and he's done research

752
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: on it. What do you know about three eighties? It's

753
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: a super charge thirty eight and without anything scientific and

754
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: spending a week on decibls and things like that. It's

755
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: really loud, and he shoots her twice in the head

756
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: at midnight, directly above their apartment. Ladies and gentlemen, How

757
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: worried is he about Rachel finding out about this? How

758
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: hard is he working to keep her in the dark again?

759
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: Injury selection, we talked about this. We gotta think, we

760
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 1: gotta put the pieces together, use our common sense, look

761
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: at the details in this case. You heard testimony yesterday

762
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: that during the barbecue on Thursday night, Sam leaned over

763
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: the balcony and said, hey, how can you guys even

764
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 1: invite me? If you can hear a guy say that,

765
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: I think you could hear two gunshots at midnight. We

766
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: were sorting a time when Rachel is gonna be awake

767
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: to a place that she's going to be able to

768
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: hear it, and he murders her. I don't know what

769
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: would that be forty ft away. And by the way,

770
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: it's May, it's not February when doors are going to

771
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: be open. He is making a compelling argument that anyone

772
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: who would view this other than Rachel knew all of it,

773
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: was in on knowledge of it. So let's just start

774
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: with that that she's fully knowledgeable about all of this.

775
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: The evidence, the quantity, the quality of it is so compelling. Jurors,

776
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: you absolutely must believe that she knew about it all.

777
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: He never hit it from her. She had all the

778
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: tools to find out. So again, compelling argument. Good job.

779
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: It just should have been what you acknowledged in our litigation.

780
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,280
Speaker 1: But if you're a juror in Rachel's trial, I would

781
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: be thinking to myself, he's proven to me that she's

782
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: a murderer. I think what yours do in this instance

783
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: as they go, We've got someone who may very well

784
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: be involved in a murder. We had ed Everett on

785
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,919
Speaker 1: the stand when you were crossing him, and he said,

786
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: do you want me to tell you what I really

787
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: think of her? And he he he pointed his finger

788
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: at your client and said he she should be sitting

789
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: right next to him. And they believe that to this day.

790
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 1: And you know that, and I know that. Let's go

791
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:17,800
Speaker 1: back to the courtroom again, still going with the idea

792
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: of how hard is Daniel was trying to hide this?

793
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: We know, based on the evidence of this case, ladies

794
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: and gentlemen, he murders two people, and he cut off

795
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:31,879
Speaker 1: a human head, and he makes no effort to hide

796
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: his shoes. How hard is he trying to hide this

797
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: from her? And we're gonna give her the shoes when

798
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 1: we get to to what she has to know. But

799
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: how hard is he trying to hide this from her?

800
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: At what point did we get into the zone of

801
00:49:55,239 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: you gotta be kidding me? H. We also know he

802
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: drove over to Westley's house two times, not just once,

803
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: but according to her twice. Al Right, on the surface,

804
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't really mean much until we sit back and

805
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: we think about this. His whole plan to get away

806
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: with this is he's going to have Wesley withdraw the money. Right,

807
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: If he's trying to keep Rachel in the dark, isn't

808
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: that like death to his plan? If Rachel Buffett meets

809
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: Wesley Frylick, what conversations can they have or wasiacts and

810
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 1: not gonna be found out? If he's trying to keep

811
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: her in the dark. Think about it. I'm so happy

812
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: to be working with your husband. When am I going

813
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: to get paid? Who's Sam her? What? What can he

814
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: say to her either at his house or at their wedding?

815
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: That isn't gonna blow it for Daniel wa Na. He's

816
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: trying to keep Rachel in the dark. But he drives

817
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: over there twice. And let's think about this, the stipulation.

818
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,439
Speaker 1: What happened was we know he leaves, he gets money

819
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: on Friday, we know he goes back up, does the

820
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: grizzly task of dismembering Sam's body, and then he gets

821
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: money again on Saturday, and we know Rachel is not

822
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:22,959
Speaker 1: what the money does that? Okay, Sunday, there's no money

823
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 1: taken out, so we only have three days left before

824
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: he's arrested. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Okay, Daniel Wazniak goes to

825
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: Wesley's house three times, twice with her and once with

826
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: her brother. How hard is he trying to keep Wellsey

827
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:46,879
Speaker 1: from her? When we think about this, Okay, remember totality

828
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: of the evidence. Here, is this a guy that is

829
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 1: keeping her in the dark? Wesley blows it for him.

830
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: If she has any contact and he's driving up twice

831
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: of her, once with her brother to drop off an

832
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 1: invitation to the wedding, Wesley equals ruined in his planning.

833
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,400
Speaker 1: If he's trying to keep it from Rachel. We know

834
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: we borrowed the axe and the saw. Of all the

835
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: axes and saws in the world, he's trying to keep

836
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: this from her. At a time where he's supposed to

837
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: be teaching an insurance class, he goes over to the

838
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: house where her parents live with her brother, and he

839
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: takes an axe and a saw. An insurance class and

840
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: a lumberjack class are two totally different things, and he

841
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: leaves that house with them, trying to keep her in

842
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: the dark. If he does a batman and he manages

843
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: to crawl over the fence and nobody sees him, then

844
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: he returns them with blood on them. And look, her

845
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: family is innocent. They don't know anything about this? How

846
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: hard is he trying to keep Rachel from finding out

847
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: about this? Because this isn't the whole thing gonna fall apart.

848
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: If her mom calls and says, and she did call,

849
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: he said Dan was here, and she goes, oh, that

850
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: was weird. He's supposed to be teaching insurance class. If

851
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: she says Dan was here and he took a saw

852
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: and an axe, we call that a clue. How hard

853
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: is he trying to keep this from her? Uses her

854
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: brother to drive him back to Wesley's and collects more money,

855
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,479
Speaker 1: And again, interesting little detail, we got the bachelor party

856
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: going on. Noah's driving separately, Daniel Waszia didn't have that

857
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 1: money on him when they arrested him. That money was

858
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: found in the car. So now he's left five hundred

859
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: bucks in cash in the brother's car. Is he worried

860
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,760
Speaker 1: about her finding out that he's got some new source

861
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: of money? If he was worried about that, folks, that

862
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: money would have been in his sock or in his underwear.

863
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: I think Daniel wild Nick worried at all? Think is

864
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,799
Speaker 1: Daniel Losnia worried at all? Pretty effective line that he

865
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: keeps repeating all of it's effective. It's really effective. It's

866
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,800
Speaker 1: really good. In fact, he's going further in some respects.

867
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 1: I would say he did a better job than I

868
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: did in arguing about um, Yeah, why Rachel had to

869
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,480
Speaker 1: know me. He's putting so many factors and he's adding

870
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,799
Speaker 1: so much. He's looking at everything. I like to think

871
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: I did a good job, but he may be doing

872
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: a better job than I did here. He really might be.

873
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,839
Speaker 1: He's putting it together in a really compelling fashion, and

874
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:42,480
Speaker 1: maybe if with a lot of reason. I think his

875
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: reasoning for what he's saying is right on the money.

876
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: So you know, he says to the jurors at some point,

877
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: at some point, you have to say, you've got to

878
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: be kidding me to believe anything other than It's like

879
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: he saying, give me a break, Yeah, give me a break.

880
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 1: So why would he say is something different? In our case?

881
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: Would say, it's not fair to reach these inferences that

882
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:09,439
Speaker 1: are the same ones he's asking of this jury because

883
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: he really wanted the death penalty in our case. When

884
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: when courts look at this on appeal, they look at

885
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: it from a harmless air standard, and there's um all

886
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 1: sorts of difficulties. It's really you want to do trials

887
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: right in the present time because look what we've been

888
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 1: talking about. This will not get likely fully handled for

889
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: um a couple of decades. And there's there's the appeal

890
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: won't happen for a couple of this part of the

891
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 1: appeal because this is all new evidence that fits into

892
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: this habeas corpus aspect of it. There's some legal changes

893
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: afoot that may mean that things go a little bit

894
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: more quickly than they did in the past, but it's

895
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: going to take a long time. And that's one of

896
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: the big problems here with this process is that you know,

897
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 1: on one end, victims families don't like the lack of

898
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: closure in the process because it takes a long time time.

899
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: But it works in both directions. So for a defendant

900
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: who had something go wrong like this, he doesn't get

901
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: that answered for a long time. Now, he's never getting out.

902
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: Let's be real clear about Daniel Wisnack. He never gets released,

903
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 1: but the death penalty is on the table until it

904
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: comes off of the table. Let's go back to court now,

905
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: I want to move into let's start analyzing. That's what

906
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: Wnia is thinking. Now, let's go through some of the

907
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 1: details of this case and talk about what Rachel Buffett

908
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: had to know. Again. She knows he's a liar. We

909
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 1: know he's a terrible liar. She knows they're beyond broke.

910
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: She knows that he has no job. She knows that

911
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: he hasn't that she has no job, Knows they're getting evicted,

912
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: knows she doesn't want to move back in with her brother. Right,

913
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: you saw one picture of that house or two, Alright,

914
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: she talks about that in the of you. She does

915
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: not want to move back to that house, and nobody

916
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 1: could blame her for that. She knows that a pending

917
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 1: bail payments d U I, his failure to appear, all

918
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: the rest of it. Knows they have a wedding in days,

919
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: knows he just borrowed two thousand dollars that he has

920
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: to pay back. And she knows, ladies and gentlemen, he

921
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: has mysteriously come into a recent source of cash Friday.

922
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: She knows he borrowed that money. Ladies and gentleman from

923
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:39,680
Speaker 1: Chris Williams. Okay, and we had some some cross examination

924
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: this from Redina. Excellent cross examinations, every one of them.

925
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 1: But he braced Chris Williams a little bit on that

926
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: pressed him a little bit as totally appropriate for him

927
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: to do that. But Hey questions the effect of, well,

928
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: she didn't know the money came from Chris. You remember

929
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: what the answer was, He said, absolutely, she knew was

930
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: came from me. She was there when we first talked

931
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: about it. She knew why I went to the apartment.

932
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: We talked about it when I was there, and then

933
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: she watched him hand me the money. Okay, we know

934
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: she knows Chris Williams is there to collect the cash.

935
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: She sees Wosniac leave with Sam her. She sees Wosniac

936
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: come back without Sam, but with four hundred bucks in cash.

937
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: And this is kind of this is interesting, ladies and gentlemen.

938
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: And look, when this is all said and done and

939
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: everything's completed, your job is done. For any of you

940
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 1: who choose to stick around. I'll be curious in your

941
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: thoughts of this, for anybody who choose to share. While

942
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: he is gone. She logs onto his Facebook when he's

943
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: committing murder in a different city. Now it's it's mumbles, okay.

944
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: In his interview with her, as we see that, okay,

945
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: almost imperceptible. What is a part of his plan to

946
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:08,440
Speaker 1: commit these murders. He's worked for Verizon. His scam, Remember

947
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:13,320
Speaker 1: Detective moralsis brief testimony on what the fraud that he

948
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: claims he's engaged in with sam The scam is, you

949
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: get Wesley to withdraw money from an ATM in one location,

950
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: and then you make a phone call in another location.

951
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: You can prove to the bank that it wasn't you

952
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: that took out the money. So, in Wazniak's head, electronic

953
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: alibis are very very much part of his plan. She

954
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: logs onto his Facebook as if he's him within ten

955
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of the murder of Samuel. Her ponder that one.

956
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: Now in our analysis, I'm gonna again jump ahead here.

957
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: We're going to give her that We're gonna say that's

958
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 1: a coincidence, accident, or he put her up to it.

959
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: A lot to digest there. Let me just start with

960
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:01,920
Speaker 1: that this is a technique he uses a lot. I'm

961
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 1: going to give her that he's really not. He's putting

962
01:00:05,360 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: it on the record. If you're giving her that, then

963
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 1: you wouldn't bring it up. What's the point that it's

964
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: not evidence that you want them to consider what he's saying,

965
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: is I've got so much. He's in an accessory for

966
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: murder case, so he's got to make it work for

967
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: the accessory for murder. But anybody listening to this would say,

968
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: this is incredibly compelling, circumstantial evidence of her involvement in

969
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: the murder. Let's go back to court. She sees him

970
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: come back, and the way Chris Williams described was next

971
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: demeanor was that is the most upset he's ever seen

972
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: another human being. And we know that's because he just

973
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: killed a guy. He's just engaged in his first rodeo

974
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: in the wonderful world of murder, and he's freaked out

975
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: about it. Chris Williams just wants to get out of there,

976
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: and she sees that so he leaves with Sam. He

977
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: comes back without Sam, but with all of a sudden

978
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 1: a bunch of money, and he is massively disturbingly upset. Okay,

979
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 1: it's like piece by piece totality of the evidence. She's

980
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: no dummy. And as we start putting this together, folks,

981
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: what does she have to know? At logs onto the

982
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 1: account again ten fifteen minutes within the time that that

983
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: murder is committed. Now we know exactly when he entered

984
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 1: the base. That was one thirteen. Okay, time to park

985
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: the car, Time to lure Sam upstairs, climb that ladder,

986
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: engage in whatever conversation they're having off close. We know

987
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,959
Speaker 1: that the target changed from pet tra and we didn't

988
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: do a lot stipulation wise on that, but it changes

989
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 1: to Julie after he goes home, because the first text

990
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: between them is from Julie to Sam's phone saying, hey, buddy,

991
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: what's up? And Wosniac responds saying, helping Dan and going

992
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: to my folks for the weekend. But there's no attempt

993
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 1: to lure her yet. So he goes back to the

994
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:25,800
Speaker 1: Camden Martinique compartments and he decides, and we're gonna say,

995
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: for the sake of argument and out of fairness, he

996
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: does it totally on his on his own. But in

997
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: that to create that electronic trail, right, he's creating electronic alibis.

998
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: So what does he want to do? He returns to

999
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: the base, and that first text message to Julie was

1000
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: when he went back to the area of the base.

1001
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: Daniel Wosniac knows that that phone is going to be

1002
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,960
Speaker 1: checked and it's gonna correspond with Sam's location and he

1003
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 1: knows his body is eventually gonna be found because he

1004
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: can't take that body back down that ladder, so he

1005
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: sends the text to Julie when he's up at the

1006
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: military base. That text was sent at four It's the

1007
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: first one to lure her. In Ladies and Gentlemen at

1008
01:03:17,480 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: four three, Rachel Buffett logs on a day and was

1009
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 1: next Facebook account in the city of Coasta, Mesa. They

1010
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: then drove to the play together. They acted in the

1011
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: play together. She's very upset about something at the play.

1012
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 1: They drive back together. They go to the apartment together ah,

1013
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: and she sends a Facebook message to Julie. At eleven ten,

1014
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 1: Wisniac sent a series of text messages back and forth

1015
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 1: to Julie on a totally different looking phone with totally

1016
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 1: different functions, with totally different sounds, and they go back

1017
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: and worth. There are twelve messages that go back and

1018
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: forth from the time they get back to the apartment

1019
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 1: to the time he leaves the apartment to go murder Julie.

1020
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 1: There are twelve text messages. And even though it wasn't

1021
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:14,760
Speaker 1: that long ago, it seems like a long time ago.

1022
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: Daniel wasnis phone is an Android slider. It's a smartphone,

1023
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: first generation smartphones. They don't look alike, they don't sound alike.

1024
01:04:26,960 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: They operate completely differently. Sending text messages. Most of you

1025
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: probably had one of these at some point. It's a

1026
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: pain in the butt because you've gotta press to get

1027
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 1: see you gotta press it three times. It's far more involved.

1028
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 1: It's done. Phone four sounds and if you press it

1029
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 1: on silent, it vibrates and lights up like a little

1030
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: disco ball. There are twelve text messages between Daniel Wozniak

1031
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 1: and Julie as Rachel Buffett is sitting next to him

1032
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: in the apartment. According to Rachel Buffett, none of those

1033
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,600
Speaker 1: things makes sense. So, I mean the thing that makes sense,

1034
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: as he's always talking about common sense, but the common

1035
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: sense is is what he's saying here, which is that

1036
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: she knew she was involved and maybe she's thinking. So.

1037
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,760
Speaker 1: One of the things he says in this excerptse he says,

1038
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: we're going to, out of fairness say the texting to

1039
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 1: Julie Koby Koby issue. We're going to say out of

1040
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,320
Speaker 1: In this excerpt where he's talking, he says, we're going

1041
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: to say out of fairness that the texting to Julie

1042
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 1: Kibuishi to lure her in, We're not going to use

1043
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: that in terms of um, in terms of the accessory.

1044
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: He's not doing that out of a sense of fairness.

1045
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: It's really important to understand this. He's not doing that

1046
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: out of a sense of fairness. The luring would be

1047
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,080
Speaker 1: evidence of a homicide of his, of her involved in

1048
01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 1: a homicide, and then she's not guilty of accessory, so

1049
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 1: he's not actually giving a break. He knows one of

1050
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: the elephants in the room that the defense is kind

1051
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 1: of limited and arguing is that because of choice is

1052
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: they don't want to argue she can't be guilty because

1053
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: her involvement is in murder. Such a friendly message. It

1054
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:22,720
Speaker 1: was an incredible argument that he made. He put this

1055
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 1: in a constellation of facts that said why she wouldn't

1056
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 1: have been involved. He used the Facebook message at eleven

1057
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: ten in our case to say why she should not

1058
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,959
Speaker 1: be viewed as being responsible. So here he is now

1059
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 1: in Rachel Buffett's case, with this evidence, which he knows

1060
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 1: is incredibly compelling. He can't even contain himself. But then

1061
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,280
Speaker 1: he says, jurors, I'm going to give that to her.

1062
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 1: Why would you give that to her because that's evidence

1063
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: of her involvement in the murder. That would mean that

1064
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 1: this is evidence that she was doing this for herself,

1065
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 1: not for Daniel Wosniac. She's protecting herself from her involvement

1066
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: and her um complicity in the murder being found out.

1067
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 1: The Facebook message obviously says she's in it or she's

1068
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: incredibly close to it. It does not. You cannot reasonably

1069
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 1: tell anybody with a brain that she was uninvolved because

1070
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 1: of the Facebook message. He did that though, and I'm

1071
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,800
Speaker 1: going to take it one step further that I I

1072
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 1: did have an interview with Daniel Hulkyard and he said

1073
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 1: that Rachel did confess to him. It slipped. He said

1074
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 1: it wasn't an intentional confession, but she said when she

1075
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:41,720
Speaker 1: sent that message to Julie, Dan was standing right over

1076
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 1: her shoulder. I think that's pretty big too. I mean,

1077
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: that's basically saying like they were in it together. It's

1078
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: uh to see to see them both now, you know,

1079
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: two years later, and to compare compare the two is

1080
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: UH is an interesting journey. Let's go back to Matt Murphy. Okay,

1081
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: leven a, wait he's trying to hustle Julie to the apartment. Rachel,

1082
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,040
Speaker 1: we know based on the Facebook activity, is sitting at

1083
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: that computer because she's she sends Julie that message at

1084
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: he's trying to hurry her up at eleven o eight.

1085
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 1: Here's here's the scene. This is their living room, the

1086
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 1: computers in the living room. Small apartment, one bedroom, one

1087
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:37,360
Speaker 1: living room, eleven twelve. Two minutes later, thanks, getting off

1088
01:08:37,400 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: the freeway. Okay, And these are the these are the

1089
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,080
Speaker 1: text messages you're gonna have those was answer to Julie.

1090
01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: How long are you're thinking, Julie thirty minutes? Okay. And

1091
01:08:46,479 --> 01:08:50,400
Speaker 1: there's this whole exchange back and forth. What's happening every

1092
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:55,839
Speaker 1: time she's texting Y or it's ringing or it's beeping whatever.

1093
01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett doesn't see that phone. Rachel Buffet doesn't hear

1094
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 1: that on give me a break now we know if

1095
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: we if we break it down, Hey buddy, where are you?

1096
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 1: I'm freezing? That was that's Julie going to Sam's apartment

1097
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 1: and knocking on the door, right and he doesn't answer

1098
01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:24,959
Speaker 1: because he's been dead for twelve hours. Where's Daniel Waznac?

1099
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: It's right downstairs in his apartment, according to rachel A. Right,

1100
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 1: the text to Taca goes out at twelve oh four

1101
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: oh Sam is crying. That's Daniel Wazney accent in that

1102
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: text because Sam was dead. That's not Julie. So we

1103
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:50,000
Speaker 1: know Julie was murdered almost exactly at the stroke of midnight. Alright,

1104
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:54,799
Speaker 1: he gets that, He heads upstairs, lures her in, blows

1105
01:09:54,800 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: her brains out, sends the text to Taca, and I submit.

1106
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: He has to get out of that apartment because he

1107
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: doesn't know if anybody heard the gunshots. Right, He's worried

1108
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: about it. It's part of his planning. So he leaves.

1109
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:13,640
Speaker 1: All right, Now, what do we know about lividity. We

1110
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:16,600
Speaker 1: talked about that a little bit. To process the decomposition,

1111
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,080
Speaker 1: that's what blood settles and tissues. We know absolutely to

1112
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 1: a scientific certainty, ladiest gentleman, those genes weren't cut off

1113
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 1: for a minimum of two to four hours. So he

1114
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 1: either stays there for a really long time, which doesn't

1115
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: make any sense. When he goes back to his apartment,

1116
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 1: they're a little love nest. And then he leaves, and

1117
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,120
Speaker 1: he goes up and he sets that whole crime scene.

1118
01:10:38,479 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 1: He steals Sam's passport, which he's got to find. He

1119
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: cuts those jeans off, he rips her shirt, he writes

1120
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 1: the messages, He drops that invitation off, he writes does

1121
01:10:49,040 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 1: that sketch? Now? It could be maybe he goes back

1122
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 1: at eleven o'clock the next day, But that doesn't make

1123
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 1: any sense either, because he knows there's a dead body

1124
01:10:57,320 --> 01:10:58,680
Speaker 1: in there. He's got to get in and out when

1125
01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 1: nobody's gonna notice. So I have it on multiple sources

1126
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:08,080
Speaker 1: that indeed he did go back in the afternoon that Saturday.

1127
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: He went and dismembered Sam, came back with Tim. I

1128
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: have witnesses that saw them in the car together, and

1129
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: Tim helped him clean up the scene and pose the scene.

1130
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: As Mr Murphy suggests, how does she not notice that

1131
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 1: he leaves the apartment? How does she get how does

1132
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: she get around that? And more importantly, what does she

1133
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:43,080
Speaker 1: say when the police got from that question? Was Niac

1134
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 1: leaves the apartment again? Two to four hours later? They

1135
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: sleep on a twin bed. Now his his driver's licensees

1136
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: to ten. He's six to alright, that's another forts on me,

1137
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,920
Speaker 1: from six to he's to thirty. If he's announced, but

1138
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,479
Speaker 1: it's give him to ten. That's a big guy in

1139
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:12,559
Speaker 1: a twin bed. I remember they were parting on Thursday.

1140
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:15,640
Speaker 1: We got that photo of her drinking wine and in

1141
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:17,799
Speaker 1: the cast party on Saturday? Did we hear any evidence

1142
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 1: that they were drinking, using drugs or anything like that?

1143
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: On Friday night, she's not passed out. She doesn't know that.

1144
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 1: He leaves, not once, but twice. Do you think we're

1145
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: not going to figure this out? Saturday, she knows that

1146
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 1: he goes to her parents house when he's supposed to

1147
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,720
Speaker 1: be teaching the class. He we know he took a

1148
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: wood wood acts uh wood saw. We know he used

1149
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 1: it to chop up a human body. They call and

1150
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 1: teller he was there, he dismembers a human being. He

1151
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,479
Speaker 1: comes back with in cash again. You know he's got

1152
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:58,479
Speaker 1: blood on his shoes. Saturday night we get the cast

1153
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:04,360
Speaker 1: party plan of state NOAs. Saturday night we get the

1154
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: phone call from Jake. Woman's been killed in the apartment.

1155
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 1: Nobody can find you in Petro Julie, she believes the

1156
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,600
Speaker 1: money from Chris involves loan sharks. And what are loan sharks?

1157
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 1: Predatory people who use violence to enforce debts. Right, she

1158
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: knows that Daniel was and cannot satisfy the bet. She

1159
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:25,679
Speaker 1: talks about that in the interview. She knows it's bucks

1160
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 1: and she knows that he only paid Now she watched

1161
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 1: him paint to Chris and lies about that. But she

1162
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:38,040
Speaker 1: knows that the debt has not been satisfied. Right. She

1163
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: knows Sam is still missing, or she knows Sam is missing.

1164
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: She sees w wasna conclude he was the last person

1165
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 1: to see Sam. She is annoyed. So this is the

1166
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: testimony from Violet concerning Saturday night. Now in the in

1167
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 1: the world of what does she know? What does she

1168
01:13:57,000 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 1: say at that? Oh my god, Sam? Or sorry, wasn'ta

1169
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: is doing this whole act like, oh my god, was

1170
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 1: I the last person to see him alive? He's doing

1171
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 1: his little performance in front of the other people. And

1172
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: she says, no, Dan, that's not what happened. Oh my god,

1173
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:16,200
Speaker 1: you're screwed up. Memories are messing up my story. Shut up, Dan, Okay,

1174
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: interesting choice awards, but I'm not asking you to convict

1175
01:14:20,360 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: on our language on that. Just interesting choice awards for

1176
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 1: something that's completely in the dark, and calls it a story.

1177
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,719
Speaker 1: By Monday, she knows her friend Julie Kiebewish has murdered.

1178
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 1: She knows Julia is a wonderful person. Knows her family

1179
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:39,280
Speaker 1: must be suffering horrific grief. Knows Sam's parents are desperately

1180
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 1: trying to find him. Knows the police are trying to

1181
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 1: find Sam. Knows Sam was kind to them, know Sam

1182
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 1: is still missing, Knows Wozniak has to be connected by

1183
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:53,600
Speaker 1: this point, and she does nothing. What else do we

1184
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 1: have to consider? Number One, She absolutely knows their financial circumstances.

1185
01:14:59,760 --> 01:15:04,160
Speaker 1: She absolutely knows that Chris Williams's owed money. She absolutely

1186
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:08,639
Speaker 1: sees Dan leave with Sam. She sees him come back

1187
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:12,719
Speaker 1: with money. She absolutely sees that flip phone. Ladies and gentlemen,

1188
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 1: there's no way around that. And remember, interestingly, Chris Williams

1189
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 1: remembers testimony Yesterroynd that he saw that flip phone. He

1190
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 1: saw that flip phone, and he was with them. He

1191
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:33,920
Speaker 1: couldn't wait to get out of the apartment. Right If

1192
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: he sees that flip phone, how does she not see

1193
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:44,599
Speaker 1: that flip phone? She sees him extremely upset. She knows

1194
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 1: Sam has disappeared. She absolutely knows that he left at midnight.

1195
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: She knows he left that apartment at midnight. She knows

1196
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: that Julie was murdered, and she knows somewhere somehow, all

1197
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's got money. Let's talk about Wednesday,

1198
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 1: and let's get into the actual statements that Rachel Buffett makes.

1199
01:16:08,760 --> 01:16:11,599
Speaker 1: They go to know us together. So this is now

1200
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 1: where is Rachel Buffett mentally At this point, All these

1201
01:16:17,320 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 1: people in the canidates that Jake Sweat, Dave Barneheart, all

1202
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: the people you've heard about, they've all been trying to

1203
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 1: figure out what happened to Julie, what happened with Sam?

1204
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 1: It did Sam kill Julie? I mean, based on Violet's description,

1205
01:16:32,720 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: these are two really nice, happy people who had this

1206
01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,759
Speaker 1: relationship that they all saw. It was like a brother

1207
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 1: and sister. Okay, so they're all talking about it. They're

1208
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 1: all trying to figure that out, all right. So they

1209
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 1: go and this is swirling around in her world. She's

1210
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: listened to Dan Wazny. I could say, my God was

1211
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 1: either last person to see him. So this is a

1212
01:16:56,840 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 1: process of recollection as they're trying to figure this out.

1213
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 1: So the police enter know us, and it's one of

1214
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:10,160
Speaker 1: those things. It's like it's in the real world, you

1215
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 1: know on TV, I guess the police are always organized

1216
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: and have it perfect. We've got two sergeants who are

1217
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: checking out an address. They're not anticipating that they're going

1218
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:23,759
Speaker 1: to actually do interviews. Real world scenario things like that happen.

1219
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,400
Speaker 1: They walk in and they think it's a business, which

1220
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:30,679
Speaker 1: I think we can understand. And they've just walked into

1221
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: a home and there's two people there, including the subject

1222
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 1: of the investigation, and there there is Daniel Wosniac. What

1223
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 1: happens right in front of her eyes? The police walk

1224
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 1: in and Daniel wosnia says, how did you guys find

1225
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 1: me here? And if that's not enough to tip her

1226
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:58,599
Speaker 1: off that he's involved, what does he say next? Can

1227
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:04,600
Speaker 1: I talk to you guys privately outside? What woman in

1228
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:08,719
Speaker 1: the history of engage women about to get married doesn't

1229
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 1: follow that up immediately as soon as police leave with

1230
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 1: what the hell do you mean? What can you what

1231
01:18:14,880 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 1: do you have to say to them that you can't

1232
01:18:16,280 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 1: say in front of me? Right? She hears him say that,

1233
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: how much more information does she need at that point

1234
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: to know that he's involved in this thing? Again giving

1235
01:18:28,320 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 1: her full benefit of the doubt that she was not

1236
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 1: involved in the planning or participation participated in these murders.

1237
01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 1: We're talking about knowledge. How can she not know? At

1238
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 1: that point he leaves the apartment, She sees that cell phone,

1239
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:49,160
Speaker 1: she sees that money, she sees his emotional state. Right

1240
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 1: when Sam disappears, she knows Julie has been murdered. She

1241
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:59,600
Speaker 1: said all that time to figure it out, all the

1242
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 1: way to Wednesday, and he says, can I talk to

1243
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: you guys privately outside? What more does it take in

1244
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 1: the real world, with our life experience, why would he

1245
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 1: need to talk to the police outside unless he has

1246
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:25,880
Speaker 1: information pertaining in their investigation. Again, we have to think

1247
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: if they use our common sense, use our life experience,

1248
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: there is no way at that moment that that woman

1249
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 1: does not know and remember, legally, all she has to

1250
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 1: know is that he's involved in the murder of Julie.

1251
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: She can believe Sam did it and somehow Dan helped him,

1252
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 1: and under the law, that means she knows he's involved

1253
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: in the murder. She knows he is. He is a

1254
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,439
Speaker 1: principal to a homicide. She has enough to know the

1255
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:02,679
Speaker 1: legal defin Asian doesn't have to go to law school.

1256
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: All she has to know is that he was involved

1257
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:09,679
Speaker 1: in that murder before or at the time that had happened.

1258
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,720
Speaker 1: And if she says anything at that point, any affirmative,

1259
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 1: why to help him? We're done? So was was she

1260
01:20:22,040 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 1: done at that point? Yes, she was done. She was

1261
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 1: done long before that point. That's what he's been talking

1262
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,160
Speaker 1: about up to this point. This just happens to be

1263
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:35,800
Speaker 1: a marker because the police are there and there's about

1264
01:20:35,800 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 1: to be some questioning. But he's saying, he's arguing up

1265
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 1: to this point very powerfully, that this is just way

1266
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:46,360
Speaker 1: down the road. I mean, he's talked about all of

1267
01:20:46,400 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: these things right now, the money, Chris Williams, the exchange

1268
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:54,400
Speaker 1: of communications, the cell phone, the tax all of it.

1269
01:20:54,439 --> 01:20:56,679
Speaker 1: That's all coming before he gets to this moment. Oh,

1270
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 1: yes she knew. But do you think that you and

1271
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 1: he differ with regard to her intent with not telling

1272
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:11,880
Speaker 1: police the truth and lying to police. That she was

1273
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: lying to police because she was protecting him or protecting herself,

1274
01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:19,640
Speaker 1: Because the way he's charging her and what he's instructing

1275
01:21:19,760 --> 01:21:25,880
Speaker 1: jurors two adhere to is that she she was Those

1276
01:21:25,920 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 1: lies were committed to police based on the fact that

1277
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: she was protecting her future husband. So the question of

1278
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:37,400
Speaker 1: what he believes is, you know, it is a difficult one,

1279
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: especially when somebody is arguing two different ways in two

1280
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:45,080
Speaker 1: different courtrooms. But what he's laying out in terms of

1281
01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:49,639
Speaker 1: details to support accessory after the fact are the same

1282
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 1: bits of information that you would use circumstantially to prove murder.

1283
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: He has counts that he's elected to proceed on, and

1284
01:21:56,640 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 1: he's going to prove them. Okay, let's see how he

1285
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:05,200
Speaker 1: does that. Back to the courtroom. So at the point

1286
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:07,320
Speaker 1: that he walks out and he has that conversation with

1287
01:22:07,360 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 1: the police, and what does she do in the middle

1288
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 1: She walks out and says, is everything okay? And remember

1289
01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 1: what Sarge Nevertt said. They're just outside the door. She's

1290
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:24,599
Speaker 1: not listening to what they're talking about. And there's two

1291
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 1: ways we can analyze it, ladies and gentlemen. She either

1292
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 1: already knows what his cockamami story is concerning this third guy,

1293
01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:36,559
Speaker 1: or she hears about it for the first time as

1294
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: he's talking to them. Let's again, let's give her the

1295
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. She heard it for the first

1296
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,080
Speaker 1: time as Daniel O. Nanc is talking. She knows he's

1297
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:48,040
Speaker 1: involved and she hears him say something that she knows

1298
01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:51,920
Speaker 1: is not true. She knows there's not third guy. She

1299
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:58,800
Speaker 1: knows that they bring her out and what happens she

1300
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 1: tells an identical story. Sam gave us a hundred dollars

1301
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:06,519
Speaker 1: for our wedding early wedding present. They left Sam's gonna

1302
01:23:06,520 --> 01:23:09,400
Speaker 1: help and run errands. There was a guy in the

1303
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:13,640
Speaker 1: apartment that I didn't know. Those friends with Sam and

1304
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: then follows up with Sergeant Everett asked her had you

1305
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: seen him before? He's they're just trying to put it together,

1306
01:23:21,840 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 1: and she says, I've never seen him in the apartment

1307
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 1: complex before. I didn't see that person before. Is a

1308
01:23:29,520 --> 01:23:36,360
Speaker 1: personal statement of belief and observation. Now, when you when

1309
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:40,800
Speaker 1: you do this job long enough, pretty soon they asked

1310
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:43,759
Speaker 1: you to start training the new deputies on trial tactics

1311
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 1: and stuff like that when you do enough trials. And

1312
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:50,720
Speaker 1: the cross examination that we heard of Detective Everett was

1313
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:57,120
Speaker 1: excellent by Mr Medina. Okay, I'll tell you why younger

1314
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,400
Speaker 1: defense lawyers might jump in and say you're lying, are lying,

1315
01:24:00,439 --> 01:24:04,599
Speaker 1: you're lying, But he didn't. The cross examination basically was

1316
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,920
Speaker 1: you guys are super busy. You didn't write the report

1317
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:11,920
Speaker 1: for three days, Okay, So that I think that what's

1318
01:24:11,960 --> 01:24:13,960
Speaker 1: coming and I certainly don't want to put words in

1319
01:24:14,280 --> 01:24:16,400
Speaker 1: the mouth of an attorney as fine as Mr Medina,

1320
01:24:17,439 --> 01:24:19,599
Speaker 1: but I think what's coming at you is it must

1321
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:24,320
Speaker 1: be a mistake. But you had an opportunity to assess

1322
01:24:24,360 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 1: the testimony of Lieutenant Everett. So there we're talking about

1323
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:32,960
Speaker 1: the report, right, and there's it seems to be a

1324
01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:37,479
Speaker 1: bit of a discrepancy because he's telling when when Lieutenant

1325
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:40,719
Speaker 1: Everett's on the stand, he's telling Jrors that he wrote

1326
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 1: the report three days later. But there is a date

1327
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 1: on there that's three and I do talk about that

1328
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:51,960
Speaker 1: in episode two of the podcast, and it seems that

1329
01:24:51,960 --> 01:24:55,680
Speaker 1: that date could have been put on by a supervisor.

1330
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:59,000
Speaker 1: So in fact, maybe Lieutenant Evert did write the report

1331
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:02,480
Speaker 1: three days after the event that he's talking about. But

1332
01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:06,800
Speaker 1: but there's that date that brought into question whether or

1333
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 1: not the report was really done three days later or

1334
01:25:09,080 --> 01:25:12,880
Speaker 1: a year later. So he's saying that David Medina did

1335
01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:17,480
Speaker 1: mention that, but it doesn't really suggest that in the transcripts.

1336
01:25:18,439 --> 01:25:20,360
Speaker 1: What's hard to know the date because the date the

1337
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 1: only day you see at the bottom of the report

1338
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,280
Speaker 1: is the date in two thousand and eleven. So it's

1339
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 1: just a question of whether you trust Everett on it.

1340
01:25:28,840 --> 01:25:31,920
Speaker 1: And I guess what. That's why he's talking to jurors

1341
01:25:32,080 --> 01:25:35,400
Speaker 1: right now and saying you have to trust Lieutenant Everett,

1342
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:39,040
Speaker 1: because if he wanted to lie, he could lie far worse.

1343
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 1: He could say that she said things like I knew

1344
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,240
Speaker 1: about the murders or I was involved in the planning

1345
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:47,920
Speaker 1: of the murders or whatever. So he's basically instructing jurors

1346
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:51,639
Speaker 1: you have to trust Lieutenant Everett. So let's talk about

1347
01:25:51,680 --> 01:25:54,320
Speaker 1: that for an instant as it relates to your trial.

1348
01:25:54,439 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: Because of course there was that incredible moment when when

1349
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:03,360
Speaker 1: you were crossing him and he sort of broke out

1350
01:26:03,360 --> 01:26:06,320
Speaker 1: of his box and and pointed his finger at Daniel

1351
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 1: and said, do you want to know what I really

1352
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:10,840
Speaker 1: think about Rachel? I think she belongs sitting next to

1353
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:15,520
Speaker 1: Daniel Wozniak. But then that was like on a Thursday,

1354
01:26:15,520 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 1: I think Thursday afternoon, and then come Monday he sort

1355
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 1: of shifted what what he said about all that, So

1356
01:26:22,360 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about that? Right he and

1357
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:26,120
Speaker 1: he walked it back. You know, he had had this

1358
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,559
Speaker 1: powerful moment he turned to me and said, you really

1359
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 1: want to know what I think in response to one

1360
01:26:30,280 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: of my questions regarding Rachel Buffett, and he says she

1361
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,280
Speaker 1: should be sitting right there next to Daniel Wozniak. I

1362
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:38,400
Speaker 1: think we've talked about this a little bit before, but

1363
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 1: you know, my perspective is an officer's experience is at

1364
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,839
Speaker 1: Everett doesn't say that in a courtroom unless he believes

1365
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:51,599
Speaker 1: there's evidence that supports it. The disappointing thing was that's

1366
01:26:51,640 --> 01:26:53,479
Speaker 1: what he believes, and I believe that's what he believes

1367
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 1: the evidence shows. But on Tuesday that was not going

1368
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:00,639
Speaker 1: to be presented the same way in the courtroom. Let's

1369
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:05,320
Speaker 1: go back to the court. So count one, ladies and gentlemen,

1370
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you believe Lieutenant Everett totally up to you.

1371
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:16,799
Speaker 1: You get to assess the credibility of witnesses. Lieutenant Everett.

1372
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:23,479
Speaker 1: You watched him testify and Mr Medine is not going

1373
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:27,839
Speaker 1: to argue this. But just in case, if the police

1374
01:27:27,880 --> 01:27:31,960
Speaker 1: wanted to lie folks to get Rachel Buffett in an

1375
01:27:32,040 --> 01:27:34,000
Speaker 1: unrecorded interview, they can just say, yeah, she said she

1376
01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 1: knew all about the murders before they happen. If they

1377
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:39,240
Speaker 1: want to screw over, right, they're gonna lie, have it

1378
01:27:39,280 --> 01:27:42,599
Speaker 1: a really good lie? Or how about yeah, I knew

1379
01:27:42,600 --> 01:27:49,200
Speaker 1: we killed him. Okay, I'm asking you to believe Lieutenant Ever.

1380
01:27:50,439 --> 01:27:55,479
Speaker 1: It's interesting that Mr Murphy says to believe Detective Everett,

1381
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:57,600
Speaker 1: because Detective Everett, of course, in our case, took the

1382
01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:00,400
Speaker 1: stand and said he believed that Rachel buff That should

1383
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:03,080
Speaker 1: be sitting right next to Daniel Wosnia. But another interesting

1384
01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: thing is what happens when we're making our closing argument.

1385
01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 1: And I say, while I'm closing in the Woznia case,

1386
01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:15,720
Speaker 1: so when she I'm talking about Rachel Buffett talks to

1387
01:28:15,840 --> 01:28:18,760
Speaker 1: Detective Everett, I do think we're all in agreement that

1388
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 1: at this point she knows about the murder and she's

1389
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:25,760
Speaker 1: trying under their theory, hoping to help Daniel Wosnia get

1390
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: away with it. We think the involvement is much greater.

1391
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,400
Speaker 1: Detective Moral seems to think the involvement is much greater.

1392
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:36,040
Speaker 1: So on this point, the entire prosecution team believes she

1393
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:40,280
Speaker 1: already knows about the murder. Mr Murphy objects, He lodges

1394
01:28:40,280 --> 01:28:42,360
Speaker 1: an objection in my closing argument and says, your honor,

1395
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to object once again is completely misstating my argument.

1396
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,240
Speaker 1: And there's several objections during the closing argument, and they're

1397
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:52,160
Speaker 1: all on this point, which is that I keep saying,

1398
01:28:52,320 --> 01:28:55,719
Speaker 1: everyone here has to be an agreement that Rachel Buffett

1399
01:28:55,920 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 1: knows about the murder in Daniel Waznias involvement, and so

1400
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 1: I sit here going she has to believe that in

1401
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:07,040
Speaker 1: order to be convicted of accessory after the fact. So

1402
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:14,080
Speaker 1: what were you possibly objecting about? And he was objecting

1403
01:29:14,120 --> 01:29:19,400
Speaker 1: because in our case, her knowledge was not something that

1404
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 1: he wanted to have clearly understood with our jury. Hell,

1405
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:29,479
Speaker 1: he was at that point trying to steer clear of

1406
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:33,600
Speaker 1: any remote sense of guilt on her part in the

1407
01:29:33,680 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 1: role of these murders, right, And even more than that,

1408
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:40,719
Speaker 1: he's actually trying to give the impression to the jury

1409
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,080
Speaker 1: that we just don't know about her level of knowledge.

1410
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:45,760
Speaker 1: It's it's even further right, And this is what we've

1411
01:29:45,760 --> 01:29:50,440
Speaker 1: been talking about throughout this podcast, the two different interpretations

1412
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:54,639
Speaker 1: of identical pieces of evidence throughout then the objection saying, look,

1413
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 1: we're not we're not in agreement, and in essence that

1414
01:29:57,240 --> 01:30:00,120
Speaker 1: objection is we're not in agreement. That she knew in

1415
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 1: advance of the contact with detective Effort outside the apartment.

1416
01:30:04,720 --> 01:30:07,280
Speaker 1: But you're saying your point is is just straight black

1417
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:12,040
Speaker 1: and white legal legally speaking. If he's charging her with

1418
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:15,760
Speaker 1: accessory after the fact, that means she had to have

1419
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:18,360
Speaker 1: knowledge of the murders and she is in fact an

1420
01:30:18,400 --> 01:30:21,320
Speaker 1: accessory after the fact that she's now covering up the

1421
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:25,439
Speaker 1: murders to protect her fiance, right. I mean, that's the thing.

1422
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:29,759
Speaker 1: You can't have the conviction if that objection is really

1423
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 1: what you want a jury, any jury to believe, because

1424
01:30:33,720 --> 01:30:37,360
Speaker 1: the key element of the accessory after the fact is

1425
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 1: that at each of these moments that support the two

1426
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 1: different crimes, she knows that Daniel Wozniak has committed the murder.

1427
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:46,920
Speaker 1: It's the knowledge. It's the knowledge is the key. When

1428
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:49,799
Speaker 1: we make the argument in our case, the objection objects

1429
01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: and says that's not our position on the case. Do

1430
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 1: you remember how the judge ruled on that objection. He

1431
01:30:56,400 --> 01:30:59,320
Speaker 1: ruled against us. I mean, judge kindly ruled against us,

1432
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 1: and I understand, and that in part because he didn't

1433
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:05,040
Speaker 1: have all of the information about what had gone on

1434
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,080
Speaker 1: at Rachel Buffet's preliminary hearing at that point, so it's

1435
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 1: not I don't he didn't have access to that. Well,

1436
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 1: he didn't have that at that moment of the objection,

1437
01:31:12,200 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 1: so he's hearing something. And look, Mr Murphy's going, that's

1438
01:31:15,200 --> 01:31:18,479
Speaker 1: not our position, and a judge might understandably say that

1439
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:21,839
Speaker 1: doesn't it's irrelevant, it doesn't matter, and there's no evidence

1440
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 1: supporting that that's this position because I don't have that

1441
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 1: in front of me at this moment. But you were

1442
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:30,360
Speaker 1: just looking for that acknowledgement. Well, that was an undebatable point.

1443
01:31:30,439 --> 01:31:34,000
Speaker 1: That's the thing was so odd about our litigation. If

1444
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:38,320
Speaker 1: you're prosecuting her for accessory after the fact, she has

1445
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:41,360
Speaker 1: to have the knowledge. So there wasn't like I was

1446
01:31:41,439 --> 01:31:45,679
Speaker 1: doing anything that was um improper or wrong in any way.

1447
01:31:45,800 --> 01:31:48,880
Speaker 1: Everybody has to believe that Rachel Buffett, there was no

1448
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:51,960
Speaker 1: games you were playing here. It's just simple thing. Look,

1449
01:31:52,000 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 1: I know you don't want to give in on her

1450
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 1: involvement in the murder, and you can certainly take the

1451
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:58,560
Speaker 1: position that she wasn't involved in the murder. That's the

1452
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:00,439
Speaker 1: position you want to take, but you can't not take

1453
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:04,000
Speaker 1: the position in our case that she did not know

1454
01:32:04,080 --> 01:32:06,760
Speaker 1: about his involvement in the murder at the time she

1455
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 1: has contact with Detective Everett and at the same time

1456
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:12,920
Speaker 1: charge her with accessory after the fat's right, they don't work.

1457
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:15,479
Speaker 1: They don't work either, so there's nothing to object about.

1458
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:18,000
Speaker 1: And you know, so you've got that, you've got the

1459
01:32:18,000 --> 01:32:21,559
Speaker 1: objections that are leveled. I think three times during my

1460
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 1: closing when I say, look, we're in agreement about these points,

1461
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:26,680
Speaker 1: and he essentially says we're not in agreement. And in

1462
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 1: Rachel's trial he showed that he was in fact in

1463
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,680
Speaker 1: agreement with your point in your closing argument. Well, his

1464
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:35,120
Speaker 1: whole closing argument is about how we're in agreement, right,

1465
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:38,719
Speaker 1: His whole closing argument is about the plethora of facts

1466
01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:41,320
Speaker 1: that support her knowledge, which of course he needed to

1467
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 1: do in order to get the conviction. And that's why

1468
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:48,280
Speaker 1: listeners have to realize the level of frustration you are

1469
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:53,320
Speaker 1: feeling when you listen to those opening arguments and closing arguments,

1470
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:56,519
Speaker 1: because in fact, pretty much throughout it, he is agreeing

1471
01:32:56,520 --> 01:32:58,920
Speaker 1: with what you said in your closing arguments for your

1472
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:02,720
Speaker 1: client in the Asnia Capital case, well, he's absolutely in

1473
01:33:02,840 --> 01:33:06,760
Speaker 1: complete agreement with us about her knowledge. He is he

1474
01:33:06,840 --> 01:33:09,759
Speaker 1: can't move from that, he couldn't today say, for example,

1475
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:15,080
Speaker 1: I don't believe she had knowledge about um the crimes

1476
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:20,160
Speaker 1: and Mr wasni actual role before she spoke to Detective

1477
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:22,600
Speaker 1: Effort and before she had her interview, which Occounts wanted to.

1478
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:24,839
Speaker 1: He couldn't say that because he just got a conviction

1479
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,639
Speaker 1: for it, right, and he needed that to be the case,

1480
01:33:27,720 --> 01:33:30,960
Speaker 1: and he made a tremendous argument in support of that.

1481
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,040
Speaker 1: But in our case he objected to me saying that

1482
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:40,560
Speaker 1: that's what the prosecution believes. Let's go back to Matt Murphy. Remember,

1483
01:33:40,720 --> 01:33:43,679
Speaker 1: the elements of this crime are what does the person

1484
01:33:44,080 --> 01:33:46,200
Speaker 1: know at the time they act? In other words, at

1485
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 1: the time she's lying, not a week later, not two

1486
01:33:49,200 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 1: days later, not a month later. It's at the time

1487
01:33:51,960 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 1: she's telling these lives. What does she know? She knows

1488
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 1: they're sitting in a police station and Daniel Wisnik has

1489
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,439
Speaker 1: been arrested. She's not under arrest, but she knows he's

1490
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 1: been arrested, and we know on tape he tells her

1491
01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:11,840
Speaker 1: he's involved in Julie's murder. He tells her he helps

1492
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 1: Sam clean up. He admits he's engaged in felony conduct

1493
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:23,200
Speaker 1: at the before they even started interviewing her. We see

1494
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 1: that on tape. So when we're talking about what her

1495
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:30,880
Speaker 1: intent is, any lie that she tells to benefit Daniel

1496
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:34,280
Speaker 1: Wasniac with knowledge that he's involved, that is the intent

1497
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:39,160
Speaker 1: that's required. He tells her he's involved, and the police

1498
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 1: follow up almost immediately at the very beginning, they again suggest, look,

1499
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 1: we suspect that he he's good for this as a

1500
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:54,559
Speaker 1: as a killer. As they're trying to untangle it. And

1501
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:57,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting because the two interviews are going

1502
01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 1: on simultaneously. Sergeant Everett keeps leaving and coming back, and

1503
01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,360
Speaker 1: he goes, and he comes back with additional information, and

1504
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:08,759
Speaker 1: you see actually his mind clearing up, and he becomes

1505
01:35:08,800 --> 01:35:12,599
Speaker 1: more and more convinced as the interview goes on, okay,

1506
01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 1: and he keeps sharing that information with her, including at

1507
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: one point he has information that only the killer would know.

1508
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:22,040
Speaker 1: So each one of these things adds on to everything

1509
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 1: else the objective evidence than what we witness point after point.

1510
01:35:26,880 --> 01:35:32,040
Speaker 1: At what point is it absolutely undeniable that she knows

1511
01:35:32,080 --> 01:35:36,560
Speaker 1: that Daniel Waznac is involved in the murder? Right that recording,

1512
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:39,880
Speaker 1: which in our case was sort of a central point

1513
01:35:40,680 --> 01:35:42,960
Speaker 1: for both sides. We talked about it quite a bait

1514
01:35:43,200 --> 01:35:46,559
Speaker 1: for us. It was the key um to evaluating who

1515
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:50,160
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett was, and you would think that it would

1516
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 1: have made its way into this case. That the recording

1517
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:55,599
Speaker 1: them going back and forth Daniel Wisney act the three

1518
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 1: separate jailhouse calls that that we have shared on this

1519
01:36:00,080 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: podcast and that you're referring to. But there's one in particular, right,

1520
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 1: it's the first call while Rachel Buffett's on the road

1521
01:36:06,400 --> 01:36:09,160
Speaker 1: and Daniel Wai is going to say on tape for

1522
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 1: the first time his involvement. That tape doesn't make it

1523
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:16,880
Speaker 1: into this case incredibly, neither side introduces it, but he

1524
01:36:16,960 --> 01:36:20,920
Speaker 1: does reference it in his opening arguments. Mr Medina does.

1525
01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:24,479
Speaker 1: He says things like she's the reason that they had

1526
01:36:24,640 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 1: this treasure trove of evidence. She even got him to

1527
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:32,400
Speaker 1: confess he wants that, so he wants the treasure trove,

1528
01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:35,800
Speaker 1: her responsibility for it. The difficulty and I'm you know,

1529
01:36:35,840 --> 01:36:38,400
Speaker 1: I would understand why he made the decision he did.

1530
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:41,840
Speaker 1: The difficulty is explaining what on earth she's doing in

1531
01:36:41,840 --> 01:36:45,400
Speaker 1: that recording as she's trying to figure out what to say.

1532
01:36:45,439 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 1: And we've talked about it a little bit, and she's

1533
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:50,479
Speaker 1: trying to feel her way through that conversation, believing that

1534
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:55,040
Speaker 1: folks are recording, from my perspective, trying not to implicate herself.

1535
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:05,840
Speaker 1: Are you realize they're recording the song conversation anyways? You're

1536
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 1: being an absolute ask to try and lie again, Yeah,

1537
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:13,800
Speaker 1: I am, because they're step in there. The simplemently means

1538
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:21,559
Speaker 1: something else with Sam, something bad. Um, you're talking about

1539
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,400
Speaker 1: the credit card scheme. They already know all about it. No, No,

1540
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:32,400
Speaker 1: it's more than that that. What I'm saying is, Um,

1541
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:37,960
Speaker 1: if they can't find up, they can't. I know. But well,

1542
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:40,280
Speaker 1: I don't know what that is. I thought it was

1543
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:43,360
Speaker 1: a murder weapon. I don't know what you're talking about

1544
01:37:43,400 --> 01:37:46,320
Speaker 1: other evidence. I don't know what Tim has decided that then,

1545
01:37:46,479 --> 01:37:51,600
Speaker 1: that he had a murder weapon. So that's exactly what

1546
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:54,200
Speaker 1: Tim told me. So I'm gonna go tell the detective now.

1547
01:37:54,280 --> 01:37:58,080
Speaker 1: So okay, what do you want me to do? Um?

1548
01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:00,160
Speaker 1: I don't want you to tell the detective any thing,

1549
01:38:00,320 --> 01:38:02,519
Speaker 1: and I don't want them involved like that. I mean,

1550
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:06,519
Speaker 1: now I'm now I'm dead. Now I'm really dead. Maybe

1551
01:38:06,600 --> 01:38:09,720
Speaker 1: are already dead. So if you're Matt Murphin, you play

1552
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 1: the recording from the jail on the What are you

1553
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:17,160
Speaker 1: going to argue about it? Because of what's being charged her.

1554
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:20,960
Speaker 1: You have to argue that that call is a complete

1555
01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 1: fraud in terms of what Rachel Buffett's saying, right, because

1556
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,360
Speaker 1: she is saying things that would suggest she's learning about

1557
01:38:28,400 --> 01:38:30,960
Speaker 1: the murders for the first time. She's also playing dumb

1558
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:33,320
Speaker 1: in that phone call, like she's hearing it right, She's

1559
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 1: never what this is extraordinary? Right? Well, we think playing

1560
01:38:36,640 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 1: dumb obviously, we think she's playing dumb, and he would

1561
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:42,719
Speaker 1: he being Mr Murphy has to argue that she's playing

1562
01:38:42,800 --> 01:38:47,479
Speaker 1: dumb because he's filed a count based upon events the

1563
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 1: day before, So that means the day before she knows

1564
01:38:51,040 --> 01:38:55,440
Speaker 1: about the murders, right, and she knows of Daniel Wazniak's involvement.

1565
01:38:56,240 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 1: Fast forward one day further, there's the call from the jail.

1566
01:39:00,200 --> 01:39:03,280
Speaker 1: That call, her response has to be a complete fraud.

1567
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:06,719
Speaker 1: Do you remember what Mr Murphy said in our case

1568
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:09,839
Speaker 1: and our closing argument. I think it was closing regarding

1569
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:14,639
Speaker 1: that call. He says, look, these guys are pretty good actors,

1570
01:39:14,680 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: but our officers don't think this is acting taking place

1571
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:20,599
Speaker 1: right here, because he one of the counts is in

1572
01:39:20,680 --> 01:39:24,479
Speaker 1: front of Noah's apartment. That happened that Wednesday afternoon and

1573
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:28,240
Speaker 1: then Thursday, here's the recorded jail house phone call. She

1574
01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 1: has to have knowledge at that point, so that has

1575
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 1: to be he has to argue here that this is

1576
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,720
Speaker 1: a fraud. But in our case he's arguing, no, this

1577
01:39:36,880 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 1: is sincere and if she was involved, it would be

1578
01:39:39,479 --> 01:39:43,240
Speaker 1: too risky to have this type of conversation. Well, that

1579
01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. These two don't work together. If what

1580
01:39:46,160 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: she's doing on that recording is real and authentic, she's

1581
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:52,800
Speaker 1: really sincerely surprised. She's not guilty here, There's no way

1582
01:39:52,840 --> 01:39:55,240
Speaker 1: around it. If that is is, if that is a

1583
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,720
Speaker 1: person learning about the murders and Daniel Wazniak's involvement for

1584
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 1: the first time, then she's not guilty. Absolutely has to

1585
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 1: be not guilty of accessory after the fact. So why

1586
01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: don't they play it in the Rachel Buffet case? Why

1587
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,280
Speaker 1: doesn't he want to say this, Hey, look at her acting.

1588
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:14,639
Speaker 1: Look what an incredible actor she is. That's the one

1589
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:16,760
Speaker 1: kind of because do you think that that would be

1590
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:19,200
Speaker 1: the point where he would be reversed on the capital case.

1591
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:22,360
Speaker 1: It would be very very difficult to get up in

1592
01:40:22,479 --> 01:40:25,679
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett's case and say, in fact, she's acting when

1593
01:40:25,720 --> 01:40:28,200
Speaker 1: you compare it to what he said in our case.

1594
01:40:28,240 --> 01:40:31,080
Speaker 1: On the other hand, why don't you want to separate

1595
01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:33,479
Speaker 1: our our case for a moment. You can't. He was

1596
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 1: the prosecutor there too, right, you can't but separate of

1597
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:41,439
Speaker 1: you know those reasons. Just if we were to sit

1598
01:40:41,520 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 1: here for a moment and go why would the prosecutor

1599
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 1: not want to play the recording of all the defendant

1600
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:55,320
Speaker 1: you're prosecuting one day after you have this incident outside

1601
01:40:55,320 --> 01:40:58,559
Speaker 1: of nose apartment? Why would you not play it? Why

1602
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:01,639
Speaker 1: you have her talking, you have acting. It's great. Evidence

1603
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 1: of acting doesn't make sense unless there's another reason for

1604
01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:07,800
Speaker 1: not playing it. And I think we know what the

1605
01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:09,800
Speaker 1: reason is. It was going to put him in an

1606
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:12,720
Speaker 1: enormously difficult position in terms of what he did in

1607
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:20,439
Speaker 1: our case. Let's go back to court. So what's the

1608
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:23,000
Speaker 1: key if she's innocent, the key to finding the killers

1609
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:25,679
Speaker 1: and she gets to accomplish all this. She gets to

1610
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:28,679
Speaker 1: make sure she is safe, She gets to make sure

1611
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:32,719
Speaker 1: that Wasnak is safe. She gets to make sure that

1612
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:38,680
Speaker 1: her friend Julie's murder gets solved. She gets to make

1613
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:42,760
Speaker 1: sure that the killers are brought to justice. Right. What's

1614
01:41:42,800 --> 01:41:45,880
Speaker 1: the key to that? If she's innocent, who's the person

1615
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:49,000
Speaker 1: who knows who the loan sharks are. Who's the key

1616
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 1: to the loan sharks? Who did the police need to

1617
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:56,479
Speaker 1: talk to? What's the real reason she doesn't want the

1618
01:41:56,479 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 1: police know about Chris Williams, or I should say reason

1619
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:04,800
Speaker 1: she knows Chris Williams is central to this whole thing.

1620
01:42:06,280 --> 01:42:11,960
Speaker 1: She knows Chris Williams loans and that money. She knows

1621
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:19,120
Speaker 1: Chris Williams is there that day. She knows exactly how

1622
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 1: much Chris Williams gets paid back. But she also knows

1623
01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:30,240
Speaker 1: Chris Williams is immediately gonna say what third guy? She's

1624
01:42:30,280 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 1: told the police there was a third guy, and if

1625
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:35,080
Speaker 1: they find out about Chris Williams, that lies blinding out

1626
01:42:35,080 --> 01:42:43,200
Speaker 1: of the water. I think what else she knows? Chris

1627
01:42:43,200 --> 01:42:46,120
Speaker 1: Williams saw Waznak leave with sam and Chris Williams is

1628
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:48,920
Speaker 1: in fact the last human being to see Samuel her alive.

1629
01:42:53,160 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 1: He sees Daniel returned with cash, knows Chris Williams saw

1630
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:01,360
Speaker 1: how upset he was, knows Chris Williams will say interestingly

1631
01:43:01,520 --> 01:43:05,519
Speaker 1: that she was the one on Wosniak's phone. Why is

1632
01:43:05,560 --> 01:43:10,200
Speaker 1: she picking up his phone? Chris Williams knows that when

1633
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:13,960
Speaker 1: his phone is on, it's her on the phone. One

1634
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:18,400
Speaker 1: of the murders has happened at that point. Now, as

1635
01:43:18,479 --> 01:43:22,080
Speaker 1: Chris Williams saw how upset she was at the play, folks,

1636
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:26,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't want the police to know anything about that stuff. Okay,

1637
01:43:26,280 --> 01:43:29,720
Speaker 1: when we're talking about intent and telling lies, Okay, when

1638
01:43:29,720 --> 01:43:32,000
Speaker 1: we're saying she's not involved in the murder, you don't

1639
01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:36,200
Speaker 1: get that. Then say, I'm lying for myself to protect myself.

1640
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:38,320
Speaker 1: I'm not involved in the murder, but I'm lying about

1641
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:40,719
Speaker 1: non crimes to protect myself. That doesn't make any sense.

1642
01:43:42,040 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 1: The only reason she has to tell these lives is

1643
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,600
Speaker 1: because she's backing up Daniel Wosniak. So it's interesting that

1644
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:50,960
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy says that Rachel Buffett doesn't get it both ways.

1645
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,800
Speaker 1: She can't say she's not involved in the murder, and

1646
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:58,360
Speaker 1: then also asked that, um, she's doing these things for

1647
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:01,680
Speaker 1: somebody other than day Ner Waznia. But that's the sort

1648
01:44:01,720 --> 01:44:04,559
Speaker 1: of the choice the prosecution makes, right, it's not her

1649
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:08,000
Speaker 1: that's making that choice. Is the prosecution that's arguing she's

1650
01:44:08,040 --> 01:44:10,640
Speaker 1: not involved with the murder in this case because they

1651
01:44:10,680 --> 01:44:14,720
Speaker 1: want her for the accessory after the fact, So right,

1652
01:44:14,840 --> 01:44:17,760
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett doesn't get to do that. But the prosecution

1653
01:44:17,800 --> 01:44:20,479
Speaker 1: could have charged her with murder and then she would

1654
01:44:20,520 --> 01:44:24,760
Speaker 1: have to apparently argue it some other way. Why do

1655
01:44:24,800 --> 01:44:28,559
Speaker 1: you think the prosecution didn't charge her with murder? Look

1656
01:44:28,600 --> 01:44:32,240
Speaker 1: that it's really hard to get into the prosecutor's head completely.

1657
01:44:32,320 --> 01:44:35,080
Speaker 1: He might have just looked upon it as not a

1658
01:44:35,280 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: sufficiently strong case with the evidence he had. I know,

1659
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:40,840
Speaker 1: you've accumulated more evidence. He may have felt that he

1660
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:43,519
Speaker 1: didn't have the evidence he needed. The presentation he makes

1661
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 1: in this case includes a lot of good evidence. That

1662
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:50,280
Speaker 1: is I've talked about could easily support a murder charge

1663
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:52,519
Speaker 1: as much as it supports an accessory after the fact.

1664
01:44:52,960 --> 01:44:55,040
Speaker 1: And you know, we've talked a little bit about that

1665
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:57,599
Speaker 1: accessory after the fact charge. I know you want to

1666
01:44:57,600 --> 01:45:00,080
Speaker 1: talk about it a bit. And it's that is she

1667
01:45:00,360 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 1: of when she's making the statements, when Rachel is making

1668
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:06,599
Speaker 1: the statements that she makes. Can she making those statements

1669
01:45:06,640 --> 01:45:12,080
Speaker 1: to assist herself and still be convicted of the accessory

1670
01:45:12,080 --> 01:45:14,839
Speaker 1: after the murder. I think she can, I think legally

1671
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:18,000
Speaker 1: to the extent she's trying to keep Daniel Wisnia being

1672
01:45:18,080 --> 01:45:21,479
Speaker 1: from being arrested or prosecuted because it does ultimately help her,

1673
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:25,000
Speaker 1: right because if he's arrested and she is involved in

1674
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:27,639
Speaker 1: the murder, or she's been involved in covering up the murder,

1675
01:45:28,120 --> 01:45:30,720
Speaker 1: she obviously would be concerned about it working back to

1676
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:33,360
Speaker 1: her better for her that Daniel wasna can not get arrested.

1677
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:35,640
Speaker 1: Of course, from our perspective, there's plenty of evidence to

1678
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:38,680
Speaker 1: support her involvement in the murder, but even her involvement

1679
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 1: in covering it up, she would have ample reason to

1680
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,640
Speaker 1: be concerned. So I think that can support the accessory

1681
01:45:43,640 --> 01:45:46,040
Speaker 1: after the fact. You've also asked, you know, could you

1682
01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:49,160
Speaker 1: have the accessory after the fact and the murder charge

1683
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:51,719
Speaker 1: for the same person, And there's sort of a split

1684
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:54,640
Speaker 1: of authority in California, But there are cases out there

1685
01:45:54,720 --> 01:45:59,520
Speaker 1: that suggest if you have facts that support the accessory.

1686
01:46:00,120 --> 01:46:02,680
Speaker 1: So for example, here the line to Detective Everett, you

1687
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:05,599
Speaker 1: could argue that that supports the accessory after the fact,

1688
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:08,360
Speaker 1: and then separate facts that support the involvement in the

1689
01:46:08,439 --> 01:46:11,280
Speaker 1: murder you could have both, for example, the Facebook messaging,

1690
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:16,240
Speaker 1: the timing extraordinary timing, and the Facebook messaging by um

1691
01:46:16,720 --> 01:46:20,760
Speaker 1: Rachel back to Julie, because Julie had Facebook messaged her

1692
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:24,720
Speaker 1: earlier in that day, the day of the murders, and

1693
01:46:24,760 --> 01:46:30,080
Speaker 1: then later that night she had messaged Julie back, right,

1694
01:46:30,120 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: So you could use pieces of evidence like that, argue

1695
01:46:32,840 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 1: their circumstantial effect and use that to support a murder

1696
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:39,719
Speaker 1: conviction and also argue for the accessory after the fact.

1697
01:46:40,000 --> 01:46:42,800
Speaker 1: And we have, just for the benefit of my listeners,

1698
01:46:43,240 --> 01:46:46,840
Speaker 1: we have discussed that Facebook message at length, and it

1699
01:46:46,920 --> 01:46:52,200
Speaker 1: was a very friendly, warm message that Rachel sent to Julie.

1700
01:46:52,280 --> 01:46:55,559
Speaker 1: And so Mr Murphy said in the capital case for

1701
01:46:55,800 --> 01:47:00,479
Speaker 1: Daniel Wisniak that that couldn't have been an alibi message,

1702
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:03,919
Speaker 1: that that seemed genuine. It seemed like she they were friends,

1703
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:07,000
Speaker 1: so she couldn't have been involved in the murder of Julie.

1704
01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:09,479
Speaker 1: That's how he framed it there. And now he's saying

1705
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:13,280
Speaker 1: the coincidence and in her trial, in Rachel's trial, Mr

1706
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:18,880
Speaker 1: Murphy saying it's just overwhelming of a coincidence that she

1707
01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:22,880
Speaker 1: sent that message forty five minutes before Julie's murdered and

1708
01:47:23,880 --> 01:47:26,639
Speaker 1: kind of around the same time, right that Also, Dan

1709
01:47:26,800 --> 01:47:32,360
Speaker 1: was luring Julie as Sam on Sam's phone to Sam's apartments.

1710
01:47:32,360 --> 01:47:36,320
Speaker 1: So the timing of both, as well as Rachel admitting

1711
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:38,479
Speaker 1: that Dan was standing right behind her when she sent

1712
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:43,280
Speaker 1: that Facebook message to Julie just seems very different than

1713
01:47:43,320 --> 01:47:47,160
Speaker 1: how it was originally framed in your trial. And I

1714
01:47:47,200 --> 01:47:50,920
Speaker 1: think that she sent that as an alibi message to

1715
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:56,040
Speaker 1: cover herself. There's really no other logical conclusion, because the

1716
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 1: other logical conclusion that he would ask the jury to

1717
01:47:58,439 --> 01:48:01,479
Speaker 1: believe is she's not involved the murder. This is just

1718
01:48:01,720 --> 01:48:04,439
Speaker 1: pure knowledge. As if she's sitting there, she knows the

1719
01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:08,040
Speaker 1: murder is taking place, and she's doing what what would

1720
01:48:08,080 --> 01:48:10,880
Speaker 1: she be doing. She's then waiting for him to come back,

1721
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,360
Speaker 1: and it's still pure knowledge. There's no aiding in a

1722
01:48:13,439 --> 01:48:17,880
Speaker 1: betting when what she's doing is creating an alibi and

1723
01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:20,960
Speaker 1: and she being Rachel just and when Rachel creates an

1724
01:48:20,960 --> 01:48:25,240
Speaker 1: alibi with Daniel Wazniak present, she's doing it for both

1725
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:28,880
Speaker 1: of them, right, It's not reasonable to believe what she's

1726
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:32,320
Speaker 1: doing as they're sitting this close together, is doing it

1727
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:36,040
Speaker 1: just for herself and That's exactly Daniel hulk Yard's point

1728
01:48:36,120 --> 01:48:39,560
Speaker 1: when he was telling me this, sharing it with me exactly.

1729
01:48:39,560 --> 01:48:42,439
Speaker 1: It's it's an alibi for both of them. Matt Murphy

1730
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:46,200
Speaker 1: didn't argue this point, and I understand why because it's

1731
01:48:46,360 --> 01:48:49,559
Speaker 1: really way too close to the murder, and he's still,

1732
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:52,160
Speaker 1: for lots of reasons, does not want to say Rachel

1733
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:55,599
Speaker 1: Buffett is involved in the murder, right because now you're

1734
01:48:55,640 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 1: kind of getting a lot closer to what we've been

1735
01:48:57,960 --> 01:49:00,320
Speaker 1: arguing and what we argued in our case. So he

1736
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:03,240
Speaker 1: stays away from it. But really, what would it be

1737
01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:06,920
Speaker 1: other than aiding and abetting the murder. It just doesn't

1738
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 1: make any sense. I mean, I would love to hear

1739
01:49:09,439 --> 01:49:12,759
Speaker 1: him argue at some point as to why it doesn't

1740
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:15,679
Speaker 1: support her role in the murder, all of the other

1741
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:19,000
Speaker 1: evidence that's there, all of the incredibly compelling arguments he's

1742
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:22,160
Speaker 1: made about her knowledge. Then at that moment when the

1743
01:49:22,200 --> 01:49:25,679
Speaker 1: murder is about to happen, she does a fake message.

1744
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:27,200
Speaker 1: And it is a fake message, right, I mean, it's

1745
01:49:27,200 --> 01:49:30,559
Speaker 1: a real message, is just full of fake sentiments. And

1746
01:49:30,640 --> 01:49:34,760
Speaker 1: he's clearly saying that, I mean, clearly Mr Murphy is

1747
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:37,760
Speaker 1: insinuating that of course, again in our case, he says

1748
01:49:37,800 --> 01:49:42,200
Speaker 1: that Facebook message friendly well, and it's part of the

1749
01:49:42,280 --> 01:49:45,840
Speaker 1: evidence that says she doesn't have involvement. He actually is

1750
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:48,360
Speaker 1: saying that he goes through all of the pieces of

1751
01:49:48,400 --> 01:49:52,839
Speaker 1: evidence that speak to why Rachel Buffett wouldn't be involved

1752
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:55,000
Speaker 1: in the murder, and he includes in that the Facebook

1753
01:49:55,040 --> 01:49:58,320
Speaker 1: message that doesn't make any sense. And now we actually

1754
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:02,280
Speaker 1: again have a wit is Daniel Hulkyard where she, in

1755
01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:06,160
Speaker 1: her own words, told him point blank, Daniel was standing

1756
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:09,200
Speaker 1: behind me when I sent that Facebook message. I think

1757
01:50:09,240 --> 01:50:11,320
Speaker 1: that's all we need to know. At this point. Will

1758
01:50:11,360 --> 01:50:14,000
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy's argument seems to be he doesn't even need

1759
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:17,920
Speaker 1: that because really what he's saying is, obviously they're right

1760
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,360
Speaker 1: next to each other. He's not saying that he's short

1761
01:50:20,360 --> 01:50:22,240
Speaker 1: of a witness on this point. He's saying, come on,

1762
01:50:22,320 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 1: let's look at all the evidence. Of course, there's there

1763
01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:27,760
Speaker 1: side by side when this happens. Let's go back to

1764
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:33,880
Speaker 1: court who needed their money their money back, and you

1765
01:50:34,040 --> 01:50:37,000
Speaker 1: listen to the police as they go back over and over,

1766
01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:41,000
Speaker 1: they understand that that is potentially a critical witness of

1767
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:45,360
Speaker 1: this thing. And we know objectively they were absolutely right

1768
01:50:46,479 --> 01:50:50,360
Speaker 1: because Wazniak's diabolical plan on the computer and all that stuff.

1769
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:55,040
Speaker 1: The catalyst of this whole thing was Chris Williams. The

1770
01:50:55,160 --> 01:50:57,599
Speaker 1: need to pay Chris Williams back is what put this

1771
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:06,880
Speaker 1: from horrible plan into actual action. Were too awesome. People

1772
01:51:07,360 --> 01:51:14,840
Speaker 1: got murdered in their twenties, So they're trying to get

1773
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:19,680
Speaker 1: the information about where they where did the money come from.

1774
01:51:19,800 --> 01:51:22,960
Speaker 1: They know Wasnaxt involved. They every sense they have, and

1775
01:51:23,000 --> 01:51:26,519
Speaker 1: you see it. They know he did this. He either

1776
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:28,600
Speaker 1: helped Sam or he did it on his own. And

1777
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:33,320
Speaker 1: he keep telling her that, and what's her answer, Um,

1778
01:51:33,439 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 1: I don't know dance thing. He said. He borrowed money

1779
01:51:35,920 --> 01:51:40,760
Speaker 1: for somebody. He borrowed money from somebody to pay the

1780
01:51:40,800 --> 01:51:42,639
Speaker 1: round on Tuesday. I think it was going to keep

1781
01:51:42,720 --> 01:51:45,000
Speaker 1: us in the apartment, so we needed to give the

1782
01:51:45,040 --> 01:51:48,799
Speaker 1: money back on Friday. Okay, it's not like I'm asking

1783
01:51:48,840 --> 01:51:51,800
Speaker 1: about a year ago. And this is Detective Morales as

1784
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:53,800
Speaker 1: you're saying, were you ever up in the apartment? I

1785
01:51:53,840 --> 01:51:56,880
Speaker 1: don't really remember. And finally he calls her out on it,

1786
01:51:57,439 --> 01:52:00,519
Speaker 1: and remember their position on this. She's not in hot seat,

1787
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: She's sitting in one of the detective seats. They're being

1788
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:07,960
Speaker 1: nice to her, they're giving her life advice. They're treating

1789
01:52:07,960 --> 01:52:10,880
Speaker 1: her like she's nothing but a witness and a victim

1790
01:52:10,880 --> 01:52:15,640
Speaker 1: of Daniel Wozniak. They are giving her the benefit of

1791
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:19,840
Speaker 1: the doubt. And he said, it's not like I'm asking

1792
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:21,360
Speaker 1: about a year ago or even a month ago. I'm

1793
01:52:21,360 --> 01:52:24,679
Speaker 1: asking about last week, and not only he's asking about

1794
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 1: four days before. And we know the evidence is everybody

1795
01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:32,000
Speaker 1: in that apartment complex is thinking about that Friday, and

1796
01:52:32,040 --> 01:52:35,880
Speaker 1: that's Saturday, and Sam and Julie and she's there for that.

1797
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:38,479
Speaker 1: I've had a lot of stress in my life. The

1798
01:52:38,560 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 1: last three weeks have been unbelievable. Question what's that stress from? Answer? Money.

1799
01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:47,200
Speaker 1: Dan admitted he lied to me at some point earlier

1800
01:52:47,200 --> 01:52:50,040
Speaker 1: in the week about something. Okay, and the next, of course,

1801
01:52:50,120 --> 01:52:53,519
Speaker 1: logical question for a police officer, He said, Um, he

1802
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:56,120
Speaker 1: said he borrowed money from someone else that I knew

1803
01:52:56,640 --> 01:52:59,760
Speaker 1: that I was comfortable with him borrowing money from. Then

1804
01:52:59,800 --> 01:53:02,280
Speaker 1: he said, he brought money from somebody that I didn't know.

1805
01:53:02,520 --> 01:53:05,680
Speaker 1: That we're bad people, Okay, we know exactly who that

1806
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:09,720
Speaker 1: person is. That's Chris Williams, right, And of course he's

1807
01:53:09,720 --> 01:53:12,920
Speaker 1: comfortable borrowing money from Chris Williams. You met him. He's

1808
01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:18,799
Speaker 1: a really nice guy. Not greater the leg breaker, Okay,

1809
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:24,080
Speaker 1: Sergeant Evitt in particular, and this is I mean, they

1810
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 1: keep going back to it. She knows the police want

1811
01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:30,439
Speaker 1: to know who that is. She knows Chris Williams is

1812
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:34,320
Speaker 1: a central witness to this. And he says, in particular,

1813
01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:36,960
Speaker 1: who are the people he brought money from, the person

1814
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:40,559
Speaker 1: that he said he borrowed that. You know who was

1815
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:45,519
Speaker 1: that person? What's her answer? The embellished made up people,

1816
01:53:45,800 --> 01:53:52,920
Speaker 1: Jim and Mark. That is an affirmative falsehood. They specifically

1817
01:53:53,320 --> 01:53:56,920
Speaker 1: narrow it down to Chris Williams. They asked her the question,

1818
01:53:57,040 --> 01:54:01,679
Speaker 1: and she tells a lie. She doesn't say, I don't

1819
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:03,800
Speaker 1: want to talk about it. She doesn't say I don't

1820
01:54:03,800 --> 01:54:05,920
Speaker 1: want to I don't want to hurt my my neighbor,

1821
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:09,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to hurt my fiance. She tells them

1822
01:54:09,240 --> 01:54:11,640
Speaker 1: a lie, and she throws throws these two names out

1823
01:54:11,640 --> 01:54:17,120
Speaker 1: there again. That is accessory after the fact, Ladies and gentlemen,

1824
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:22,160
Speaker 1: she knows about a murder. She's sitting through things. She's

1825
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:25,479
Speaker 1: sitting through texting, she's looking at phone calls, she's hearing

1826
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:28,800
Speaker 1: the sound of gunshots above. She sees Dan come back

1827
01:54:28,840 --> 01:54:31,080
Speaker 1: to the bed. Dan she admits to Dan hell Care

1828
01:54:31,200 --> 01:54:33,520
Speaker 1: that when he came back, she saw blood on his

1829
01:54:33,560 --> 01:54:36,720
Speaker 1: shirt when they went in a shower together, right And

1830
01:54:36,880 --> 01:54:41,600
Speaker 1: Dave barne Hard said to me that she later after,

1831
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:43,960
Speaker 1: you know, after the way, after the murders and once

1832
01:54:44,040 --> 01:54:47,920
Speaker 1: Dan was arrested, that she actually did see Dan when

1833
01:54:48,000 --> 01:54:50,680
Speaker 1: Dan came back he had blood on his shirt right

1834
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:55,960
Speaker 1: before they went into shower together. I think that's pretty unbelievable.

1835
01:54:56,120 --> 01:54:58,320
Speaker 1: I know it's not evidence in this trial, but it

1836
01:54:58,480 --> 01:55:01,840
Speaker 1: certainly took me for a loop when I heard it.

1837
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:05,160
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy and our case goes through these pieces of evidence,

1838
01:55:05,160 --> 01:55:08,160
Speaker 1: he says, Um, you know, look at the conversation with

1839
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:12,440
Speaker 1: Chris Williams in which she says, I'm upset about something else.

1840
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:15,760
Speaker 1: Murphy says, you know, is that because she's in a

1841
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:18,880
Speaker 1: murderer or is that because Daniel Wozniak drove up to

1842
01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:21,240
Speaker 1: the base and left her with Chris Williams just so

1843
01:55:22,040 --> 01:55:24,600
Speaker 1: he left her with Chris Williams there for like three hours.

1844
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:27,680
Speaker 1: That gleer she gives him as he walks in the

1845
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,440
Speaker 1: door that Chris william describes who knows what that is.

1846
01:55:30,960 --> 01:55:33,080
Speaker 1: Can we take that improve means she's involved with them?

1847
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:36,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think so. He did not want

1848
01:55:37,520 --> 01:55:41,760
Speaker 1: the jurors to hear that Rachel had a significant role

1849
01:55:42,280 --> 01:55:45,920
Speaker 1: in the planning and execution of these murders. He went

1850
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:49,640
Speaker 1: further than that. In our case. He wasn't just saying

1851
01:55:50,680 --> 01:55:53,280
Speaker 1: no role in terms of the murders. That we don't

1852
01:55:53,280 --> 01:55:55,440
Speaker 1: even know what she knows. And that's what he's doing

1853
01:55:55,520 --> 01:55:57,280
Speaker 1: here in terms of what I'm talking about in the

1854
01:55:57,280 --> 01:56:00,520
Speaker 1: Wazna case, who knows what's in her head. So I

1855
01:56:00,600 --> 01:56:03,960
Speaker 1: had shared an elevator after the penalty vere it came

1856
01:56:04,000 --> 01:56:07,080
Speaker 1: in and we were all leaving the courthouse and the

1857
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:10,320
Speaker 1: four woman was in the elevator, as was Matt Murphy,

1858
01:56:10,640 --> 01:56:14,480
Speaker 1: and she said, so what about Rachel Buffett? What's going

1859
01:56:14,520 --> 01:56:17,520
Speaker 1: to go on with Rachel Buffett? And his response was,

1860
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:19,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. We'll have to We'll have to see,

1861
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:25,080
Speaker 1: you'll have to see. Sometimes it's just collateral damage. I'll

1862
01:56:25,080 --> 01:56:31,360
Speaker 1: never forget that. Well. I don't think he ever wanted

1863
01:56:31,400 --> 01:56:34,760
Speaker 1: to prosecute her. I mean, I know that he went

1864
01:56:34,880 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 1: quite a long time telling families that I'm offering deals,

1865
01:56:39,040 --> 01:56:41,440
Speaker 1: but she's not taking them, only to find out that

1866
01:56:41,800 --> 01:56:45,080
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett walked up to Steve Hare and one of

1867
01:56:45,080 --> 01:56:47,320
Speaker 1: those pre trial hearings and said, mister Hare, I want

1868
01:56:47,320 --> 01:56:51,040
Speaker 1: you to know I haven't been offered anything. And at

1869
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:54,160
Speaker 1: that point there was this sort of big explosion outside

1870
01:56:54,200 --> 01:56:57,560
Speaker 1: the courtroom because Steve Hare felt violated. He felt like

1871
01:56:57,600 --> 01:57:00,160
Speaker 1: I've been listening to for month after month telling me

1872
01:57:00,840 --> 01:57:04,840
Speaker 1: that you presented an offer and she wasn't accepting, and

1873
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:09,200
Speaker 1: but she ultimately got it. She ultimately got a hum

1874
01:57:09,360 --> 01:57:11,480
Speaker 1: dagger of a of an offer, right. I mean she

1875
01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:17,000
Speaker 1: was offered a misdemeanor with no jail time and the

1876
01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:21,680
Speaker 1: vocations it dismissed in a year. So it's an extraordinary

1877
01:57:21,720 --> 01:57:26,480
Speaker 1: offer to make to a person who is involved on

1878
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:29,360
Speaker 1: some level in covering up two murders if you accept

1879
01:57:29,480 --> 01:57:31,839
Speaker 1: just that level of responsibility. So one of the questions

1880
01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:33,960
Speaker 1: is why why would you make an offer that's that

1881
01:57:34,080 --> 01:57:38,320
Speaker 1: phenomenal and reasonably? Again, the offer is accepting a misdemeanor,

1882
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:42,080
Speaker 1: no jail time and expunged after a year. Look, this

1883
01:57:42,120 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 1: is what I've heard, this is what you've heard. I

1884
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 1: can't say, and I don't see the firm agreement before me.

1885
01:57:46,760 --> 01:57:48,720
Speaker 1: But if that's true, if that's accurate, and we have

1886
01:57:49,000 --> 01:57:51,480
Speaker 1: some reason to believe that it is, that's that's an

1887
01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:54,920
Speaker 1: incredible offer, um in a case of this consequence and

1888
01:57:55,440 --> 01:57:58,400
Speaker 1: people being killed in the way they were killed. So

1889
01:57:58,480 --> 01:58:01,400
Speaker 1: that's it's an incredible offering. It's reasonable ask the question

1890
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:05,360
Speaker 1: why would you make that offer just weeks before the

1891
01:58:05,480 --> 01:58:08,000
Speaker 1: trial was supposed to take place, particularly when you hear

1892
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 1: these arguments, because the arguments are so compelling for her knowledge, right,

1893
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:15,480
Speaker 1: they're just so compelling. I mean, I listened to him

1894
01:58:15,520 --> 01:58:19,160
Speaker 1: and he's incredibly convincing, and he's not convincing. He's very good. Yeah,

1895
01:58:19,280 --> 01:58:20,840
Speaker 1: but it's not just because he's good. He's got the

1896
01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:24,280
Speaker 1: facts exactly. He owns the facts in this case. The

1897
01:58:24,320 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 1: reason he's gonna win is both because he has the

1898
01:58:26,360 --> 01:58:30,160
Speaker 1: facts and because he's a very good uh courtroom presenter.

1899
01:58:30,200 --> 01:58:34,280
Speaker 1: There's no question about it. But you have to ask yourself,

1900
01:58:34,560 --> 01:58:39,120
Speaker 1: why did he want the case to settle? That's the

1901
01:58:39,200 --> 01:58:41,600
Speaker 1: question of the hour of the day of the year.

1902
01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:46,000
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the courtroom. And this is an

1903
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:48,760
Speaker 1: ironic day to be making an argument like this as

1904
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:53,000
Speaker 1: Americans again, today is an anniversary. Is something really bad right,

1905
01:58:53,680 --> 01:58:59,640
Speaker 1: every single one of you remembers where you were when

1906
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:03,400
Speaker 1: these hors came down. What day could be worse for

1907
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:09,200
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett than that Friday Personal nine elevens. This is

1908
01:59:09,240 --> 01:59:12,040
Speaker 1: the day that Daniel way It comes back more upset

1909
01:59:12,040 --> 01:59:14,280
Speaker 1: than Chris Williams has ever seen another human being. She

1910
01:59:14,320 --> 01:59:17,760
Speaker 1: doesn't remember that day. This is the day that her

1911
01:59:17,760 --> 01:59:20,200
Speaker 1: friend gets murdered. How many people does she know they

1912
01:59:20,240 --> 01:59:25,320
Speaker 1: get murdered? She doesn't remember every detail of that day,

1913
01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:28,080
Speaker 1: giving her the benefit of the doubt that she's walking

1914
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:30,760
Speaker 1: into that she had nothing to do with the murder.

1915
01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:36,440
Speaker 1: She doesn't remember that day. That's the day that her plans,

1916
01:59:37,440 --> 01:59:41,600
Speaker 1: her life gets completely turned upside down. She says, she

1917
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:45,720
Speaker 1: can't remember. This is four nights before when everybody in

1918
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:51,160
Speaker 1: her world is trying to remember that day. Right, ladies

1919
01:59:51,160 --> 01:59:55,000
Speaker 1: and gentlemen, I submit to you, that is absolutely nonsense.

1920
01:59:57,400 --> 01:59:59,360
Speaker 1: Everybody in that a problem with complex is talking about

1921
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:03,680
Speaker 1: what happened on that right, That, ladies and gentlemen, is

1922
02:00:03,680 --> 02:00:09,480
Speaker 1: an affirmative falsehood. Okay, Wesley, and he'd been telling me, Um,

1923
02:00:09,520 --> 02:00:12,080
Speaker 1: He'd been telling me at least a few days in advance,

1924
02:00:12,360 --> 02:00:15,400
Speaker 1: that he had a class on Saturday, Um, and I

1925
02:00:15,520 --> 02:00:18,760
Speaker 1: know I now know that he was planning on Wesley

1926
02:00:18,800 --> 02:00:22,240
Speaker 1: to do the A T M thing. Okay, so number

1927
02:00:22,240 --> 02:00:26,600
Speaker 1: one Sergeant Everett at the time. Sergeant Everett's reaction to

1928
02:00:26,640 --> 02:00:29,640
Speaker 1: that was pretty immediate, and he said, wait a second.

1929
02:00:29,800 --> 02:00:32,560
Speaker 1: If he's telling you a lie before Julie got murdered,

1930
02:00:33,280 --> 02:00:35,640
Speaker 1: that's really strong indication that he was involved in this

1931
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:39,480
Speaker 1: murder before they happened. He's sharing that information with her,

1932
02:00:40,040 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 1: and she is unnoticed at that point. He didn't teach

1933
02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:47,640
Speaker 1: an insurance class. If he's telling lies before the murder

1934
02:00:47,680 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 1: related to the murder, who is not going to figure

1935
02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:58,360
Speaker 1: that one out? Okay? And his next question, Okay, so

1936
02:00:58,400 --> 02:01:01,080
Speaker 1: you knew Wesley, Um, I'd seen pictures of him. I'd

1937
02:01:01,080 --> 02:01:03,600
Speaker 1: been to his house once twice when he wasn't home.

1938
02:01:04,040 --> 02:01:06,320
Speaker 1: We went to drop off a wedding invitation to his house.

1939
02:01:06,560 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 1: So she's seen photos, she's been to his house twice,

1940
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:12,680
Speaker 1: and he's coming to their wedding. So what happened to

1941
02:01:13,320 --> 02:01:19,840
Speaker 1: Who's Wesley? She knows exactly who Wesley is. Exactly who

1942
02:01:19,840 --> 02:01:23,280
Speaker 1: Wesley is. Is that little performance that the two of

1943
02:01:23,280 --> 02:01:26,680
Speaker 1: them put on at the you know who's Wesley? Why

1944
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:28,560
Speaker 1: did you lie to me about Jim and Mark. That

1945
02:01:28,640 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 1: Ladies and Gentlemen is exactly that. It's a performance by

1946
02:01:31,280 --> 02:01:43,280
Speaker 1: two actors. Who's Wesley. But he didn't tell you about

1947
02:01:43,280 --> 02:01:46,080
Speaker 1: any of this. To scam and get money, he told

1948
02:01:46,080 --> 02:01:48,320
Speaker 1: me Friday he brought money from loan sharks. That's all

1949
02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:51,720
Speaker 1: I need. Again, that's completely not true, Sergeant Everett. Is

1950
02:01:51,760 --> 02:01:53,600
Speaker 1: there a way that we're gonna find that you're connected

1951
02:01:53,640 --> 02:01:56,720
Speaker 1: to this? I know Sam, I know Julie. I live

1952
02:01:56,720 --> 02:01:59,560
Speaker 1: in an apartment where evidence is apparently, well, that's an

1953
02:01:59,640 --> 02:02:03,920
Speaker 1: interest a little singer. She doesn't see any of this stuff.

1954
02:02:03,960 --> 02:02:06,040
Speaker 1: Why does she think they're gonna find evidence in the apartment?

1955
02:02:11,200 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 1: That's kind of a clue. I mean, they say they're

1956
02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:20,320
Speaker 1: looking for a gun at one point, there's a comment

1957
02:02:20,360 --> 02:02:22,320
Speaker 1: that Wozniak he used gloves to help clean it up.

1958
02:02:22,640 --> 02:02:27,600
Speaker 1: Nobody ever tells her there's evidence in the apartment. Oops,

1959
02:02:32,720 --> 02:02:39,560
Speaker 1: how dumb does she think you are? Not? Mr? Medina,

1960
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,920
Speaker 1: Miss Buffett? Was he did he tell you that he

1961
02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:46,280
Speaker 1: paid this money to these people on Friday? Look at

1962
02:02:46,280 --> 02:02:48,640
Speaker 1: this um He said it was taken care of. He

1963
02:02:48,720 --> 02:02:51,360
Speaker 1: got an extension of Monday or something like that, or

1964
02:02:51,440 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: he he paid some of it. He said, yeah, he paid.

1965
02:02:55,920 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 1: I actually saw him with that much money. He would

1966
02:02:58,640 --> 02:03:01,800
Speaker 1: um and here we go. He had four dollars somehow

1967
02:03:01,840 --> 02:03:04,760
Speaker 1: on Friday he got a hold of four hundred dollars

1968
02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 1: and he dropped a twenty as as we was going,

1969
02:03:09,360 --> 02:03:11,240
Speaker 1: so it would have been three a d I'm sorry

1970
02:03:11,280 --> 02:03:12,920
Speaker 1: that should say he as he was going, so it

1971
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:15,360
Speaker 1: would have been three eighty. And then he said he

1972
02:03:15,480 --> 02:03:18,960
Speaker 1: extended somehow till Monday for the rest. And then Monday

1973
02:03:19,040 --> 02:03:22,200
Speaker 1: came and went, and I was out doing my own thing, running,

1974
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:24,840
Speaker 1: running all day, and he said he took care of

1975
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:27,360
Speaker 1: all of it. Okay, what did Chris Williams tell us

1976
02:03:27,400 --> 02:03:29,800
Speaker 1: about that? He hands some four hundred bucks, He sees

1977
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:33,040
Speaker 1: how stressed Wozniak is, and he says, dude, is this

1978
02:03:33,400 --> 02:03:36,320
Speaker 1: all the money you have? Here's a twenty dollar bill

1979
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:40,480
Speaker 1: and Rachel is standing right there. That is an absolute lie.

1980
02:03:42,200 --> 02:03:48,480
Speaker 1: That is a lie. Question. But he told us he

1981
02:03:48,520 --> 02:03:54,760
Speaker 1: gave Okay, they're referring to Wasnias interview here, Detective Everett.

1982
02:03:54,880 --> 02:03:57,200
Speaker 1: But he told us he gave the four dollars to

1983
02:03:57,280 --> 02:04:00,000
Speaker 1: Sam so Sam could have money. That's what he told us.

1984
02:04:00,200 --> 02:04:02,200
Speaker 1: But you're telling us he had four hundred, and look

1985
02:04:02,200 --> 02:04:04,360
Speaker 1: at the wish she answers this one. Um, he told

1986
02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:07,040
Speaker 1: me he gave it to the bad people he owes

1987
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:10,920
Speaker 1: money to, as like um par partial payments so they

1988
02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:13,680
Speaker 1: could hold off until Monday. Not only was it not

1989
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:17,600
Speaker 1: four hundred, it was three eight unless he unless he

1990
02:04:17,720 --> 02:04:19,560
Speaker 1: dashed over when he said he had to go meet

1991
02:04:19,560 --> 02:04:22,360
Speaker 1: his parents to grab the money and give it to

1992
02:04:22,560 --> 02:04:25,920
Speaker 1: Sam and then come back, that's possible. He could have

1993
02:04:26,000 --> 02:04:28,680
Speaker 1: given Sam the three eight. Then he told me he

1994
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 1: gave it to the other people he owed it to.

1995
02:04:31,400 --> 02:04:34,200
Speaker 1: She watched him hand that money to Chris Williams, and

1996
02:04:34,240 --> 02:04:36,120
Speaker 1: then they talked on the phone and they have a

1997
02:04:36,160 --> 02:04:41,640
Speaker 1: conversation about it. Another absolute bald face in your face

1998
02:04:41,760 --> 02:04:51,040
Speaker 1: life regarding Noah. They're talking about when Noah got arrested

1999
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:52,640
Speaker 1: here and pick up that money. And not only that,

2000
02:04:52,720 --> 02:04:55,160
Speaker 1: when questioned by detectives, he forgot to tell us where

2001
02:04:55,160 --> 02:04:57,040
Speaker 1: he'd been when we saw him drive and meet with

2002
02:04:57,120 --> 02:04:59,680
Speaker 1: Wesley because he was driving. He was driving the smart car.

2003
02:05:00,160 --> 02:05:04,400
Speaker 1: Wozniak was in the pastor seat right then. Ultimately, the

2004
02:05:04,400 --> 02:05:08,360
Speaker 1: money's found in your brother's car, Buffett, and this shows

2005
02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:10,760
Speaker 1: us where her mentality is but so he didn't like

2006
02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:16,839
Speaker 1: out and outlie. He neglected to tell you something, Sergeant Evertt,

2007
02:05:16,840 --> 02:05:22,520
Speaker 1: the same thing, Julie. What he's saying. He's saying that

2008
02:05:22,560 --> 02:05:24,880
Speaker 1: he witnessed particular things on the body that only the

2009
02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:29,000
Speaker 1: killer would know. So Buffett, and this is was she

2010
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 1: merely shot in the head or was she also raped?

2011
02:05:33,760 --> 02:05:36,400
Speaker 1: So I'd like to make clear all of the quotes

2012
02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:40,640
Speaker 1: we just heard him say with regard to Wesley and

2013
02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:44,480
Speaker 1: about the money and who did Dan give the money to?

2014
02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:47,520
Speaker 1: And then of course Julie the last comment we heard,

2015
02:05:47,560 --> 02:05:50,840
Speaker 1: which was she was asking police, was Julie just killed

2016
02:05:50,920 --> 02:05:54,520
Speaker 1: or raped? As well? All of those comments that he's making,

2017
02:05:54,560 --> 02:06:00,960
Speaker 1: those quotes are coming from transcriptions of her first initial

2018
02:06:01,080 --> 02:06:04,040
Speaker 1: interview with police that Thursday morning, and so he also

2019
02:06:04,120 --> 02:06:08,200
Speaker 1: refers to the first time she saw Dan after he

2020
02:06:08,320 --> 02:06:11,120
Speaker 1: was arrested. They brought her in and they had an

2021
02:06:11,120 --> 02:06:14,680
Speaker 1: exchange back and a fourth briefly, and so some of

2022
02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:17,320
Speaker 1: those comments that he just made also came from that

2023
02:06:17,400 --> 02:06:20,879
Speaker 1: earlier before her first interview, when she was solo with police.

2024
02:06:21,320 --> 02:06:24,200
Speaker 1: So I thought it's important to make that clear, and

2025
02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:26,400
Speaker 1: I want to talk about it because there's quite a

2026
02:06:26,400 --> 02:06:29,120
Speaker 1: few things in there that he's obviously still mapping out

2027
02:06:29,760 --> 02:06:34,040
Speaker 1: her guilt, her knowledge, and for me, one of the

2028
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:37,320
Speaker 1: biggest things. I've said this before in the podcast, I'll

2029
02:06:37,320 --> 02:06:40,120
Speaker 1: say it again when people ask me, what do you

2030
02:06:40,200 --> 02:06:42,800
Speaker 1: think is the smoking gun that proves that she was

2031
02:06:42,840 --> 02:06:45,600
Speaker 1: involved with the murders. I've always brought it back to

2032
02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:50,360
Speaker 1: this when she says when she's asked by police, who

2033
02:06:50,840 --> 02:06:53,680
Speaker 1: did Dan give the money to? And she says, well,

2034
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:56,560
Speaker 1: it could have been the bad guys or the loan Sharks,

2035
02:06:57,040 --> 02:06:59,880
Speaker 1: or it could have been Sam. I'm condensing it, but

2036
02:07:00,000 --> 02:07:03,480
Speaker 1: that's in essence what she says, and to me, when

2037
02:07:03,520 --> 02:07:06,360
Speaker 1: we all know she was there in the apartment with

2038
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:10,120
Speaker 1: Chris when Dan handed Chris that money, says to me,

2039
02:07:10,240 --> 02:07:15,080
Speaker 1: she knows Sam's dead. She does know that Sam's dead there.

2040
02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:19,640
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy agrees that she knows Sam's dead there. The

2041
02:07:19,760 --> 02:07:21,840
Speaker 1: interest a question of how that evidence is used. Is

2042
02:07:21,880 --> 02:07:25,720
Speaker 1: that evidence support accessory after the fact as its support

2043
02:07:26,200 --> 02:07:29,960
Speaker 1: accessory to murder. I would say it supports both. So

2044
02:07:30,080 --> 02:07:33,720
Speaker 1: Mr Murphy is about to take us back to that

2045
02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 1: Thursday morning made It's after Dan's initial arrest from the

2046
02:07:40,120 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 1: night before, when he was charged with accessory after the fact,

2047
02:07:44,760 --> 02:07:48,120
Speaker 1: since police believe that Dan was still helping Sam on

2048
02:07:48,160 --> 02:07:52,800
Speaker 1: the run. So that Thursday morning, Rachel and Violet go

2049
02:07:53,080 --> 02:07:56,040
Speaker 1: to the Waznak parents house to tell them the news

2050
02:07:56,120 --> 02:07:59,280
Speaker 1: about Dan. Let's go back to court. They go along

2051
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 1: reach and what happen they talked to was acts Dad.

2052
02:08:04,360 --> 02:08:10,000
Speaker 1: They have this conversation, they leave, they run into Tim

2053
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:15,960
Speaker 1: and Violet being a human, here's Tim's got information, right?

2054
02:08:16,880 --> 02:08:27,080
Speaker 1: So what does she say? Violet says, we need to

2055
02:08:27,120 --> 02:08:30,280
Speaker 1: call the police immediately, and Rachel's reaction is, no, I

2056
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:36,880
Speaker 1: need to call him first regarding intent? Is that informative

2057
02:08:36,920 --> 02:08:40,680
Speaker 1: for us? After the police have literally implored her on

2058
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:43,240
Speaker 1: behalf of the Kibowi she's in the hers about the

2059
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:49,440
Speaker 1: need for information. Her first reaction there is she with them.

2060
02:08:49,720 --> 02:09:00,120
Speaker 1: First reaction when you're considering intent is I gotta warrant him.

2061
02:09:00,200 --> 02:09:07,680
Speaker 1: She's not lying to help Daniel, wasnack, I need to

2062
02:09:07,680 --> 02:09:10,480
Speaker 1: call him first. And then the way the way it

2063
02:09:10,600 --> 02:09:17,080
Speaker 1: pans out, Violet is like, oh yeah, what's her what's response?

2064
02:09:17,200 --> 02:09:19,080
Speaker 1: Do you want it to disappear because that's what's going

2065
02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:22,680
Speaker 1: to happen, which, of course, at that time it would

2066
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 1: have been fine with Rachel Buffett, why else called Tim?

2067
02:09:34,680 --> 02:09:36,840
Speaker 1: So she's got Violet sitting next to her. And that's

2068
02:09:36,840 --> 02:09:38,640
Speaker 1: another thing. I didn't want to stipulate to her folks

2069
02:09:38,720 --> 02:09:41,240
Speaker 1: for variet of reasons, but I wanted you to see her, right,

2070
02:09:41,760 --> 02:09:44,600
Speaker 1: so you can assess Rachel knows or their friends they

2071
02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:47,600
Speaker 1: actually lived together after the murders. Violet is a force

2072
02:09:47,600 --> 02:09:50,600
Speaker 1: of nature, and Violet is calling the cops no matter what.

2073
02:09:51,320 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 1: And she knew that. So they drive off in that

2074
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:58,480
Speaker 1: car they get the information. Ten minutes go by before

2075
02:09:58,520 --> 02:10:02,680
Speaker 1: they get to that gas station, and Violet is already

2076
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:04,120
Speaker 1: on the phone with her mom trying to get the

2077
02:10:04,520 --> 02:10:08,360
Speaker 1: number to the police department. And Rachel Buffett knows that

2078
02:10:09,160 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 1: Violet is a force of nature. I don't recall him

2079
02:10:14,440 --> 02:10:19,040
Speaker 1: ever even mentioning Violet in your trial. I don't think

2080
02:10:19,040 --> 02:10:21,800
Speaker 1: I ever even heard the name Violet in the Dan

2081
02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:26,840
Speaker 1: Wasniac trial. Because in the Dan Wasniac trial, Rachel was

2082
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:30,840
Speaker 1: the one that provided the cornucopia of evidence and he

2083
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:32,560
Speaker 1: wanted a metal pinned on her. I mean, if you

2084
02:10:32,560 --> 02:10:36,400
Speaker 1: were to listen to the argument encountering me in my

2085
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:40,440
Speaker 1: penalty face closing argument, he said, look, she's responsible, and

2086
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:44,080
Speaker 1: she he wasn't just saying she's responsible because she handed

2087
02:10:44,080 --> 02:10:47,360
Speaker 1: it over. He was saying that she's responsible in a

2088
02:10:47,440 --> 02:10:51,040
Speaker 1: good way, saying something good about her. No sense whatsoever

2089
02:10:51,040 --> 02:10:53,280
Speaker 1: in our case that it was motivated by Violet. It

2090
02:10:53,360 --> 02:10:56,000
Speaker 1: was motivated by a desire to do what was right here.

2091
02:10:56,960 --> 02:10:59,960
Speaker 1: So when we go back now to Mr Murphy's closing argument,

2092
02:11:00,760 --> 02:11:04,760
Speaker 1: he is discussing all the lies that he could tell

2093
02:11:05,400 --> 02:11:09,680
Speaker 1: during her first interview with police that morning that Thursday morning,

2094
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:13,720
Speaker 1: from three in the morning till six am. And he says,

2095
02:11:13,760 --> 02:11:16,880
Speaker 1: there's so many, just pick one. So let's go back

2096
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:20,720
Speaker 1: and and here is the finish of his argument. So

2097
02:11:20,800 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 1: of the nineteen different lives that I counted, I'm asking

2098
02:11:23,800 --> 02:11:29,280
Speaker 1: you to convict her on one and again you can,

2099
02:11:29,400 --> 02:11:33,280
Speaker 1: you can pick the fake alibi. But I submit to

2100
02:11:33,320 --> 02:11:35,680
Speaker 1: you the statement when they go back over and over

2101
02:11:35,680 --> 02:11:41,440
Speaker 1: again about who Dan borrow the money from, those are

2102
02:11:41,520 --> 02:11:44,000
Speaker 1: firmative false fools, ladies and gentlemen. And it's not right.

2103
02:11:45,200 --> 02:11:53,120
Speaker 1: It is not right. That violates California law. And the evidence,

2104
02:11:53,160 --> 02:11:55,640
Speaker 1: when we put the pieces together and spend the time

2105
02:11:55,680 --> 02:12:04,680
Speaker 1: on this is overwhelming. So hiding physical evidence like Tim did,

2106
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:07,880
Speaker 1: or hiding the existence of a witness under California law

2107
02:12:07,920 --> 02:12:14,480
Speaker 1: are exactly the same thing. So Count one is the

2108
02:12:14,520 --> 02:12:17,200
Speaker 1: interview at Noah's. She absolutely knew he was involved in

2109
02:12:17,240 --> 02:12:21,080
Speaker 1: a felony. She knew, she knew that there was a murder,

2110
02:12:23,720 --> 02:12:25,640
Speaker 1: and she knew Wasna comes up to his eyeballs in it.

2111
02:12:27,800 --> 02:12:31,120
Speaker 1: She lied Sergeant Everett and Sergeant Davis. The lie was

2112
02:12:31,120 --> 02:12:34,680
Speaker 1: an affirmative falsehood about a non existent person which happened

2113
02:12:34,680 --> 02:12:37,840
Speaker 1: to match Wasniaks lie, which was a calculated part of

2114
02:12:37,840 --> 02:12:41,480
Speaker 1: his plan to get away with murder. Count two, with

2115
02:12:41,720 --> 02:12:45,560
Speaker 1: undeniable knowledge of bosniaks involvement in her murder, especially after

2116
02:12:45,560 --> 02:12:49,680
Speaker 1: he tells her he's involved in the murder, she led

2117
02:12:49,760 --> 02:12:53,280
Speaker 1: nineteen times. She provided a false alibi. She hid the

2118
02:12:53,320 --> 02:12:56,080
Speaker 1: existence of a critical witness. Police did not learn of

2119
02:12:56,160 --> 02:12:59,280
Speaker 1: Chris Williams until ten days after the murders and five

2120
02:12:59,360 --> 02:13:02,000
Speaker 1: days after the interview of Daniel Waznia. And I submit

2121
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:04,240
Speaker 1: to you, ladies and gentlemen, those families how to write

2122
02:13:04,400 --> 02:13:11,560
Speaker 1: for the police to have that information. They did, all

2123
02:13:11,640 --> 02:13:16,000
Speaker 1: right now, I really appreciate your patience, ladies and gentlemen.

2124
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:19,400
Speaker 1: I know this is this is a lot of information, Okay.

2125
02:13:19,400 --> 02:13:22,480
Speaker 1: I think the law is simple enough. All right, you've

2126
02:13:22,480 --> 02:13:24,720
Speaker 1: been you've been patient with me. Everybody's been paying attention.

2127
02:13:25,400 --> 02:13:28,880
Speaker 1: Les listen very carefully to everything that Mr Medina says. Okay,

2128
02:13:28,960 --> 02:13:31,680
Speaker 1: but when he's done, I'm going to rebut every single

2129
02:13:31,760 --> 02:13:36,360
Speaker 1: thing that he says. Thank you. So that's the conclusion

2130
02:13:36,760 --> 02:13:42,080
Speaker 1: of Matt Murphy's first round inclosing arguments in Rachel's successory

2131
02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:46,840
Speaker 1: to murder trial. What do you think He's absolutely right,

2132
02:13:46,880 --> 02:13:52,600
Speaker 1: there's overwhelming evidence of her knowledge. Um. I think quite

2133
02:13:52,640 --> 02:13:55,520
Speaker 1: a bit more. He's hinting that at that again throughout

2134
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:59,839
Speaker 1: the closing argument. So he's absolutely right. It's just completely

2135
02:14:00,280 --> 02:14:03,160
Speaker 1: from what he argued in our case. But that's a

2136
02:14:03,240 --> 02:14:07,320
Speaker 1: problem because if he delivered the closing argument that he

2137
02:14:07,360 --> 02:14:09,840
Speaker 1: did in the Washniak case, if those jurors heard the

2138
02:14:09,880 --> 02:14:14,080
Speaker 1: Washniak closing our argument and not having heard David Medina,

2139
02:14:14,240 --> 02:14:16,560
Speaker 1: they acquit her of both of these charges, they'd have

2140
02:14:16,560 --> 02:14:19,840
Speaker 1: to essentially go against the prosecutor. If you heard what's

2141
02:14:19,880 --> 02:14:23,080
Speaker 1: in our case put it before that same jury, I

2142
02:14:23,120 --> 02:14:26,280
Speaker 1: don't know how they could convict. So what you're saying is,

2143
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:30,879
Speaker 1: if David Medina played the closing argument in the penalty

2144
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:33,760
Speaker 1: phase of your trial. He could have won this case

2145
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:37,920
Speaker 1: if the law allowed him to do that. To put

2146
02:14:37,960 --> 02:14:40,800
Speaker 1: that before the jury, I don't see how he loses.

2147
02:14:42,280 --> 02:14:45,120
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2148
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2176
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2177
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Speaker 1: e U t H. Thank you. In order for you

2178
02:16:51,160 --> 02:16:54,040
Speaker 1: to believe the government's theory in this case, there are

2179
02:16:54,080 --> 02:16:57,120
Speaker 1: some things that you have to believe yourn a reason

2180
02:16:57,160 --> 02:17:00,520
Speaker 1: wall doubt. The first thing is you have to believe

2181
02:17:01,920 --> 02:17:05,359
Speaker 1: that Rachel knew that Dan butchered two of her friends.

2182
02:17:06,920 --> 02:17:08,960
Speaker 1: You have to believe that Rachel was okay with that.

2183
02:17:10,879 --> 02:17:13,320
Speaker 1: You have to believe that Rachel then lied to the

2184
02:17:13,360 --> 02:17:16,920
Speaker 1: police in order to help Dan beat the rap for

2185
02:17:17,000 --> 02:17:20,080
Speaker 1: butchering her two friends. And you have to believe that

2186
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:23,039
Speaker 1: Rachel did all this in order to have a great honeymoon.

2187
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:26,039
Speaker 1: I want to go through the evidence with you to

2188
02:17:26,080 --> 02:17:30,760
Speaker 1: explain how there's no way in the world that theory

2189
02:17:30,959 --> 02:17:34,160
Speaker 1: is supported by the evidence in this case. First look

2190
02:17:34,160 --> 02:17:40,119
Speaker 1: at the relationship between Dan and Rachel. It's based completely

2191
02:17:40,200 --> 02:17:47,039
Speaker 1: on lies. Dan's lies. Every aspect of their relationship is

2192
02:17:47,040 --> 02:17:51,120
Speaker 1: based on lies. It's not like a normal loving relationship

2193
02:17:51,200 --> 02:17:56,280
Speaker 1: where there's trust, where there's loyalty. Dan has lied to

2194
02:17:56,400 --> 02:18:01,160
Speaker 1: Rachel about everything. He's lied about his childhood, he's lied

2195
02:18:01,200 --> 02:18:06,920
Speaker 1: about his past relationships. He's lied about his employment, he's

2196
02:18:06,959 --> 02:18:10,920
Speaker 1: lied about his parents. He's lied about where he goes

2197
02:18:11,000 --> 02:18:13,640
Speaker 1: when he leaves the house, he lies about who he's

2198
02:18:13,680 --> 02:18:18,000
Speaker 1: on the phone with. Everything he does with respect to

2199
02:18:18,080 --> 02:18:23,680
Speaker 1: his relationship with Rachel is fake. And the reason he

2200
02:18:23,760 --> 02:18:25,760
Speaker 1: does that, and we know the reason he does that

2201
02:18:25,920 --> 02:18:29,040
Speaker 1: is because he doesn't feel he's worthy of being with Rachel.

2202
02:18:31,920 --> 02:18:34,880
Speaker 1: He confesses that tour Uh when he makes his full

2203
02:18:34,879 --> 02:18:36,920
Speaker 1: confession to her while he's at Costa Masa p D.

2204
02:18:37,480 --> 02:18:40,080
Speaker 1: He says, I did this because I couldn't be the

2205
02:18:40,080 --> 02:18:45,640
Speaker 1: man you wanted me to be. I wasn't worthy. Now,

2206
02:18:45,680 --> 02:18:48,840
Speaker 1: if Dan is willing to lie to Rachel about even

2207
02:18:48,879 --> 02:18:51,960
Speaker 1: the smallest things, like who he's on the phone with,

2208
02:18:52,680 --> 02:18:55,200
Speaker 1: who he is going to work with, who he's in

2209
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:58,800
Speaker 1: a car with, why in the world would he tell

2210
02:18:58,879 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 1: her or allow her to know that he's killed two

2211
02:19:02,600 --> 02:19:06,880
Speaker 1: of their friends. Why would he ever want her to

2212
02:19:07,320 --> 02:19:13,119
Speaker 1: have any suspicion that he did that because he thinks

2213
02:19:13,160 --> 02:19:17,720
Speaker 1: that that would keep her, that would ensure that the

2214
02:19:17,760 --> 02:19:19,480
Speaker 1: marriage is going to happen in a couple of days.

2215
02:19:19,480 --> 02:19:21,840
Speaker 1: If if he lets her know, hey, by the way,

2216
02:19:21,840 --> 02:19:23,720
Speaker 1: I killed two of our friends so we could have

2217
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:28,560
Speaker 1: money for our honeymoon. Be okay with that? Of course

2218
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:32,640
Speaker 1: not if he's gonna lie about the smallest things, if

2219
02:19:32,640 --> 02:19:38,320
Speaker 1: he's gonna lie about his wedding ring, why in the

2220
02:19:38,360 --> 02:19:41,279
Speaker 1: world would he tell her that he murdered two people

2221
02:19:42,320 --> 02:19:49,039
Speaker 1: to keep her. He wouldn't, of course he wouldn't. Now,

2222
02:19:49,160 --> 02:19:52,959
Speaker 1: the key issue in this case is what knowledge did

2223
02:19:53,080 --> 02:19:56,720
Speaker 1: Rachel have about these murders and when did she have

2224
02:19:56,879 --> 02:19:59,880
Speaker 1: that knowledge. I submit to you she did not know

2225
02:20:00,320 --> 02:20:04,320
Speaker 1: about Dan's involvement in these murders. She didn't believe about

2226
02:20:04,480 --> 02:20:07,720
Speaker 1: his murdering of these two people until he confessed to

2227
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:12,400
Speaker 1: her on the phone after her interview with Costa Maza

2228
02:20:12,480 --> 02:20:16,520
Speaker 1: p D. When he had this explosion of truth to

2229
02:20:16,600 --> 02:20:19,960
Speaker 1: her and he went step by step with her over

2230
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:23,000
Speaker 1: the phone how he killed those two people. That's when

2231
02:20:23,040 --> 02:20:27,640
Speaker 1: she knew exactly what he had done. And we know

2232
02:20:27,800 --> 02:20:31,959
Speaker 1: that because we see how she acted prior to that

2233
02:20:32,040 --> 02:20:37,680
Speaker 1: phone call. We heard there that he cited those jailhouse calls.

2234
02:20:37,720 --> 02:20:41,840
Speaker 1: He he spoke about those jailhouse calls as if that

2235
02:20:41,959 --> 02:20:46,520
Speaker 1: was the key evidence that proved that she had no

2236
02:20:46,720 --> 02:20:50,240
Speaker 1: knowledge of the murders before that time, and that she

2237
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:55,360
Speaker 1: was learning about the murders from Dan at that moment. Fascinating,

2238
02:20:55,640 --> 02:20:58,959
Speaker 1: that piece of evidence doesn't come in though in many respects,

2239
02:20:59,000 --> 02:21:01,600
Speaker 1: she would think, Okay, that would be the piece of

2240
02:21:01,640 --> 02:21:04,840
Speaker 1: evidence you would point to, But neither counsel wants that

2241
02:21:04,879 --> 02:21:08,280
Speaker 1: piece of evidence before the jury. Could the attorneys have

2242
02:21:08,480 --> 02:21:11,720
Speaker 1: introduced at least the transcriptions of the calls or that

2243
02:21:11,760 --> 02:21:15,039
Speaker 1: wouldn't have helped either. Well, you have to introduce the recording.

2244
02:21:15,120 --> 02:21:17,800
Speaker 1: So you've got to live with that recording. The evidence

2245
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:21,040
Speaker 1: is the recording, the transcriptions there to assist the jurors

2246
02:21:21,680 --> 02:21:24,560
Speaker 1: in studying it. But they've made a decision, both of them,

2247
02:21:24,560 --> 02:21:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure has given a lot of thought to that.

2248
02:21:26,560 --> 02:21:29,400
Speaker 1: But it is the elephant in the room. Why in

2249
02:21:29,440 --> 02:21:32,760
Speaker 1: the world is that recording not before them if it's

2250
02:21:32,800 --> 02:21:35,760
Speaker 1: so compelling to either side. I do think it's compelling

2251
02:21:35,840 --> 02:21:37,440
Speaker 1: for Matt Murphy. I think he just doesn't want to

2252
02:21:37,440 --> 02:21:40,520
Speaker 1: touch it because of our case. Well, let's see what

2253
02:21:40,640 --> 02:21:42,959
Speaker 1: more we can learn. Let's go back to Mr Medina's

2254
02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:48,120
Speaker 1: closing argument. Count one is the conversation that she has

2255
02:21:48,760 --> 02:21:54,800
Speaker 1: with Everett and Davis at her brother's house. The people's

2256
02:21:54,840 --> 02:21:57,680
Speaker 1: theory is at that point she knows that Dan had

2257
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:05,199
Speaker 1: butchered her two friends. She knows at that point Dan knows,

2258
02:22:05,280 --> 02:22:07,920
Speaker 1: because the theory has to be that he told her

2259
02:22:08,080 --> 02:22:11,360
Speaker 1: or he left so much evidence around that she must

2260
02:22:11,440 --> 02:22:15,400
Speaker 1: have known that he butchered these people. So how did

2261
02:22:15,400 --> 02:22:17,760
Speaker 1: those two people act when they come into contact with

2262
02:22:17,760 --> 02:22:23,560
Speaker 1: the police. They act pretty differently, don't they. The person

2263
02:22:23,600 --> 02:22:26,440
Speaker 1: that actually has knowledge of the murders, what does he do?

2264
02:22:29,080 --> 02:22:32,440
Speaker 1: How did you find me? Here, he says. He doesn't say,

2265
02:22:32,440 --> 02:22:36,199
Speaker 1: how did you find us here? And then he immediately says,

2266
02:22:36,440 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 1: I want to talk away from Rachel outside. And what

2267
02:22:40,840 --> 02:22:44,720
Speaker 1: is he doing while he's talking to Everett? He's shaped

2268
02:22:44,800 --> 02:22:53,560
Speaker 1: visibly shaking. He seems nervous, he seems evasive, consistent with

2269
02:22:53,680 --> 02:23:00,200
Speaker 1: knowledge of the horrible crimes he's committed, consistent. How does

2270
02:23:00,320 --> 02:23:06,640
Speaker 1: Rachel act the exact opposite? She acts in a manner

2271
02:23:07,080 --> 02:23:09,600
Speaker 1: that someone would act when they don't have any knowledge

2272
02:23:09,640 --> 02:23:13,240
Speaker 1: of this horrific crime that's just happened. She's not shaking,

2273
02:23:14,320 --> 02:23:18,280
Speaker 1: she's not nervous. Everett even told us that she was

2274
02:23:18,320 --> 02:23:28,720
Speaker 1: more accommodating than Dan. Two distinct reactions, circumstantial evidence of knowledge.

2275
02:23:29,760 --> 02:23:33,280
Speaker 1: He's acting like he has knowledge of these horrific events,

2276
02:23:33,320 --> 02:23:41,560
Speaker 1: she's not. Now what does she say to Everett? She

2277
02:23:41,720 --> 02:23:45,320
Speaker 1: says what Dan says to Everett? And you've got to

2278
02:23:45,320 --> 02:23:47,879
Speaker 1: ask yourself, well, why did she say that? Why did

2279
02:23:47,879 --> 02:23:52,240
Speaker 1: she give the same story about this this third person? Well,

2280
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:54,959
Speaker 1: a couple of different reasons, A couple of possible reasons.

2281
02:23:55,040 --> 02:23:58,720
Speaker 1: Number one, she's at the door listening, she doesn't know

2282
02:23:58,760 --> 02:24:02,680
Speaker 1: what's going on, and she parents, what what Dan says?

2283
02:24:03,320 --> 02:24:06,200
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean she knows about these crimes. That doesn't

2284
02:24:06,240 --> 02:24:08,879
Speaker 1: mean she has the intent that Dan get away with

2285
02:24:08,879 --> 02:24:13,480
Speaker 1: a double murder. Maybe the third person she's talking about

2286
02:24:13,560 --> 02:24:17,320
Speaker 1: is Chris Williams, who was there. There was a third person,

2287
02:24:17,360 --> 02:24:20,920
Speaker 1: it was Chris Williams. Maybe that's who she's talking about.

2288
02:24:21,600 --> 02:24:25,920
Speaker 1: But to make the leap from that statement to her

2289
02:24:26,040 --> 02:24:29,360
Speaker 1: knowledge of this horrific crime and her intent to have

2290
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:33,879
Speaker 1: Dan beat the rap on those two it doesn't make sense.

2291
02:24:35,879 --> 02:24:39,640
Speaker 1: So it seems like Mr Medina is suggesting there she

2292
02:24:39,840 --> 02:24:44,720
Speaker 1: is just not good for accessory, right, That's what he's suggesting.

2293
02:24:44,800 --> 02:24:47,360
Speaker 1: That's of course, that's what he's going to argue, and

2294
02:24:49,200 --> 02:24:51,520
Speaker 1: and he may believe that, and I'm assuming he does

2295
02:24:51,560 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 1: believe and that's what he's supposed to do, and he's

2296
02:24:53,400 --> 02:24:56,840
Speaker 1: making a very articulate argument about it. Um it's a

2297
02:24:56,840 --> 02:25:00,320
Speaker 1: hard argument, obviously, even though it's the same r document

2298
02:25:00,480 --> 02:25:02,680
Speaker 1: that Matt Murphy made in our case. I mean, he

2299
02:25:02,800 --> 02:25:07,000
Speaker 1: also says that how could she be covering for Dan

2300
02:25:07,120 --> 02:25:10,160
Speaker 1: when she spoke to the police saying, you know that

2301
02:25:10,200 --> 02:25:13,440
Speaker 1: he's a liar, And she said quite a few things

2302
02:25:14,000 --> 02:25:18,200
Speaker 1: in that interview with police that Thursday morning that weren't

2303
02:25:18,680 --> 02:25:24,600
Speaker 1: terribly supportive, right. So Mr Medina's point is, if she

2304
02:25:24,800 --> 02:25:27,760
Speaker 1: were looking to cover for him or protect him in

2305
02:25:27,800 --> 02:25:33,240
Speaker 1: any way, why would she frame him that way. That's

2306
02:25:33,280 --> 02:25:36,120
Speaker 1: that's his argument, and it's interesting. One of his points

2307
02:25:36,160 --> 02:25:39,440
Speaker 1: is that, look how cool she is. And I don't

2308
02:25:39,440 --> 02:25:41,120
Speaker 1: want to keep coming back to the same point, but

2309
02:25:41,160 --> 02:25:43,800
Speaker 1: if you're Matt Murphy, what a great piece of evidence

2310
02:25:43,879 --> 02:25:45,480
Speaker 1: you would have had in your back pocket on that,

2311
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:49,959
Speaker 1: because she's never more cool in terms of communications with

2312
02:25:50,080 --> 02:25:55,120
Speaker 1: Dan Waznac than on and she is as cool as

2313
02:25:55,200 --> 02:25:59,440
Speaker 1: can be. I mean some some listeners have referred to

2314
02:25:59,480 --> 02:26:04,000
Speaker 1: her a morseless Well, she doesn't. You don't get from

2315
02:26:04,000 --> 02:26:06,879
Speaker 1: her even a sense that she cares about the victims there.

2316
02:26:07,160 --> 02:26:10,360
Speaker 1: You certainly don't get a sense that she's surprised about

2317
02:26:10,400 --> 02:26:14,320
Speaker 1: his involvement in two murders. And so if you're Matt Murphy,

2318
02:26:14,480 --> 02:26:17,000
Speaker 1: you would think, but he hasn't introduced it, ind evidence

2319
02:26:17,080 --> 02:26:20,160
Speaker 1: for his own reasons. You'd want to go You want

2320
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:25,320
Speaker 1: to see how someone who's involved can look and sound

2321
02:26:25,800 --> 02:26:28,360
Speaker 1: take a look at this tape, but it's not there.

2322
02:26:29,720 --> 02:26:33,080
Speaker 1: Let's go back to court. Now. The second count is

2323
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:37,840
Speaker 1: the interview. This this taped interview. Again, the people's theory

2324
02:26:38,040 --> 02:26:40,600
Speaker 1: is during the interview, and actually it's two. It's when

2325
02:26:40,680 --> 02:26:44,119
Speaker 1: she first learns of the arrest for accessory and they

2326
02:26:44,160 --> 02:26:47,760
Speaker 1: bring her into the interview room with Dan, and then

2327
02:26:47,959 --> 02:26:51,800
Speaker 1: subsequent to that she's interviewed by herself. The people's theory

2328
02:26:52,040 --> 02:26:56,360
Speaker 1: is for both of those interviews, she has knowledge that

2329
02:26:56,440 --> 02:27:00,720
Speaker 1: Dan committed these horrific crimes. She is to intend to

2330
02:27:00,800 --> 02:27:03,520
Speaker 1: lie to them so that he can beat the rap

2331
02:27:04,320 --> 02:27:09,520
Speaker 1: and they can live a beautiful, happy life together. Now,

2332
02:27:09,600 --> 02:27:14,640
Speaker 1: let's have your future groom be arrested at his bachelor

2333
02:27:14,760 --> 02:27:20,560
Speaker 1: party the day before the wedding. Now we're gonna take

2334
02:27:20,600 --> 02:27:24,200
Speaker 1: all of that stress and all of that context, and

2335
02:27:24,240 --> 02:27:26,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna call you into Coasta Masa p D at

2336
02:27:26,440 --> 02:27:29,000
Speaker 1: three in the morning and we're going to interview you.

2337
02:27:30,120 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 1: We're gonna ask you very specific questions about specific times, dates,

2338
02:27:36,920 --> 02:27:44,879
Speaker 1: and instances. Is that an ideal interview situation? And I'm

2339
02:27:44,920 --> 02:27:46,960
Speaker 1: not saying Coasta Masa p D did anything wrong by

2340
02:27:47,000 --> 02:27:50,119
Speaker 1: bringing her in, but I'm asking you to look at

2341
02:27:50,120 --> 02:27:53,840
Speaker 1: it in the context of how it took place. Now,

2342
02:27:55,520 --> 02:28:00,200
Speaker 1: she does talk about Chris Williams in that interview. She

2343
02:28:00,240 --> 02:28:04,320
Speaker 1: doesn't mention him by name, but she does mention Dan

2344
02:28:04,560 --> 02:28:08,960
Speaker 1: getting money from bad people. The bad the bad people

2345
02:28:09,000 --> 02:28:11,879
Speaker 1: that she's talking about. That's Chris Williams, and he's a

2346
02:28:11,959 --> 02:28:17,080
Speaker 1: very important witness because he provides the explanation for why

2347
02:28:17,120 --> 02:28:20,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't want to talk about him. Again, we're dealing

2348
02:28:20,080 --> 02:28:24,560
Speaker 1: with a young twenty year old. Okay, he says he's

2349
02:28:24,560 --> 02:28:31,720
Speaker 1: in the mafia. He's lent money to your crazy, stressed

2350
02:28:31,720 --> 02:28:35,920
Speaker 1: out fiancee who's freaking out, who has a deadline to

2351
02:28:35,920 --> 02:28:40,440
Speaker 1: pay the money. He maintains the mafia life throughout the

2352
02:28:40,640 --> 02:28:43,600
Speaker 1: entire day. He's sitting there in your apartment with you,

2353
02:28:43,840 --> 02:28:47,640
Speaker 1: and he's not going to leave until he gets the money. Now,

2354
02:28:47,680 --> 02:28:50,840
Speaker 1: we saw him testify. He seems like a really nice guy,

2355
02:28:51,400 --> 02:28:57,000
Speaker 1: really nice. But why in the world would he lie

2356
02:28:57,000 --> 02:29:01,200
Speaker 1: about being in the mafia. What affect did that have

2357
02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:04,440
Speaker 1: on Rachel? What affect did that have on her ability

2358
02:29:04,480 --> 02:29:07,840
Speaker 1: to tell the tell the police. Yeah, this mafia guy

2359
02:29:07,959 --> 02:29:10,840
Speaker 1: was there. She's not going to say that. She's hesitant.

2360
02:29:10,879 --> 02:29:13,160
Speaker 1: It's not because because she wants to provide an alibi

2361
02:29:13,200 --> 02:29:18,800
Speaker 1: for Dan. She's scared, she's concerned. She doesn't know this guy.

2362
02:29:18,920 --> 02:29:21,800
Speaker 1: Maybe she wants to to not have this guy be

2363
02:29:21,840 --> 02:29:24,520
Speaker 1: a part of this. He's having an affair with her friend,

2364
02:29:26,000 --> 02:29:30,240
Speaker 1: who knows the reason, But she does discuss the money

2365
02:29:30,320 --> 02:29:32,360
Speaker 1: and where it came from. It came from bad people,

2366
02:29:32,440 --> 02:29:35,320
Speaker 1: bad sources, and that's what Chris Williams said. He said,

2367
02:29:35,600 --> 02:29:38,920
Speaker 1: I can get the money from unreputable people. I think

2368
02:29:38,959 --> 02:29:42,880
Speaker 1: this is a good moment to discuss the fact that

2369
02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:48,200
Speaker 1: Mr Murphy dropped count three. I have sources in the

2370
02:29:48,440 --> 02:29:52,640
Speaker 1: d AS office who told me that he dropped count

2371
02:29:52,720 --> 02:29:57,360
Speaker 1: three because count three revolved around an interview that she

2372
02:29:57,600 --> 02:30:01,879
Speaker 1: that Rachel Buffett had with police on nine. And in

2373
02:30:02,040 --> 02:30:07,280
Speaker 1: that interview, she said that she does admit that it

2374
02:30:07,320 --> 02:30:10,080
Speaker 1: was Chris Williams. She does tell police that it was

2375
02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:14,320
Speaker 1: Chris Williams that was in the apartment that day, and

2376
02:30:14,360 --> 02:30:17,120
Speaker 1: she said the reason was is because she she was

2377
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:19,840
Speaker 1: told that he was in the mafia and his family

2378
02:30:19,879 --> 02:30:24,240
Speaker 1: was in the mafia, and she was very concerned, very fearful.

2379
02:30:25,320 --> 02:30:27,680
Speaker 1: She didn't know him that well and all she knew

2380
02:30:27,760 --> 02:30:30,400
Speaker 1: was that he said that he got the money from

2381
02:30:30,480 --> 02:30:33,240
Speaker 1: loan sharks, and she was scared, and so she just

2382
02:30:33,280 --> 02:30:35,840
Speaker 1: didn't want to bring him into this and that was

2383
02:30:35,920 --> 02:30:41,960
Speaker 1: something that Mr Murphy allegedly was concerned about because that's

2384
02:30:42,000 --> 02:30:45,560
Speaker 1: reasonable to a lot of people, right, So he just

2385
02:30:45,720 --> 02:30:49,000
Speaker 1: wanted nothing to do with count three for that reason,

2386
02:30:49,080 --> 02:30:54,000
Speaker 1: because it was centered around that subsequent interview she had

2387
02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:56,800
Speaker 1: in June nine. I sure would like to know your

2388
02:30:56,800 --> 02:30:59,240
Speaker 1: opinion about why you think he dropped that third count.

2389
02:30:59,560 --> 02:31:02,680
Speaker 1: I think certainly possible if you have that information, that

2390
02:31:02,720 --> 02:31:05,280
Speaker 1: may be possible part of the calculation. I think the

2391
02:31:05,320 --> 02:31:08,480
Speaker 1: bigger part, the one that makes more senses. He's had

2392
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:11,480
Speaker 1: the case at that point that he dismissed it for

2393
02:31:11,720 --> 02:31:15,920
Speaker 1: six years, longer than the Wozniak case when it goes

2394
02:31:15,959 --> 02:31:19,520
Speaker 1: to trial. He's thought out the case, he understands the facts,

2395
02:31:19,560 --> 02:31:22,560
Speaker 1: he understands his arguments. Nothing's changed. But I do think

2396
02:31:22,640 --> 02:31:26,800
Speaker 1: what he rethought was, why would she still be telling

2397
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:30,680
Speaker 1: lies on this late date, well after Daniel Wozniak has

2398
02:31:30,680 --> 02:31:34,599
Speaker 1: admitted his involvement to her to the police. He's definitely

2399
02:31:35,200 --> 02:31:38,640
Speaker 1: going to be prosecuted and has admitted to his involvement

2400
02:31:38,640 --> 02:31:42,640
Speaker 1: in the murders. How possibly could statements that are deceptive

2401
02:31:42,760 --> 02:31:46,120
Speaker 1: on this late date, before the purpose of getting Daniel

2402
02:31:46,120 --> 02:31:49,040
Speaker 1: Wozniak out of harm's way, though, they have to be

2403
02:31:49,400 --> 02:31:52,959
Speaker 1: forgetting her out of harm's way. So the reality is

2404
02:31:53,000 --> 02:31:55,560
Speaker 1: that count was going to be very confusing to jerors

2405
02:31:55,560 --> 02:31:57,120
Speaker 1: because because it was going to be very hard to

2406
02:31:57,240 --> 02:32:02,080
Speaker 1: argue when that interview takes place, that third interview, she's

2407
02:32:02,080 --> 02:32:04,560
Speaker 1: thinking about anybody but herself. And I don't think he

2408
02:32:04,600 --> 02:32:07,520
Speaker 1: wanted that contradiction before the jurors because it's a slippery

2409
02:32:07,520 --> 02:32:10,440
Speaker 1: slope because you can work backwards and go, well, if

2410
02:32:10,520 --> 02:32:13,240
Speaker 1: this was about her, why would we not think the

2411
02:32:13,320 --> 02:32:20,280
Speaker 1: earlier counts were about her? I see that's a valid point,

2412
02:32:20,400 --> 02:32:23,240
Speaker 1: and potentially the reason as well. I mean, maybe there

2413
02:32:23,240 --> 02:32:27,400
Speaker 1: were two reasons. Let's go back to court now. The

2414
02:32:27,440 --> 02:32:33,240
Speaker 1: other thing, uh, that Rachel did that, especially with respect

2415
02:32:33,280 --> 02:32:37,320
Speaker 1: to her interview, is she provided some pretty devastating facts

2416
02:32:38,080 --> 02:32:43,080
Speaker 1: about Dan. If she really intended to protect Dan and

2417
02:32:43,800 --> 02:32:47,119
Speaker 1: make sure that he would beat this this murder case

2418
02:32:47,160 --> 02:32:49,560
Speaker 1: that she knows about, or this murder that he may

2419
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:54,959
Speaker 1: have committed, um, would she have disparaged him? Would she

2420
02:32:55,120 --> 02:32:59,039
Speaker 1: have um explained that he's a liar? Would she have

2421
02:32:59,120 --> 02:33:02,200
Speaker 1: said that to them? Of course not. If there's this

2422
02:33:02,280 --> 02:33:05,240
Speaker 1: grand scheme. The two of them have gotten together and

2423
02:33:05,840 --> 02:33:09,600
Speaker 1: they've talked about how they're going to beat this case

2424
02:33:09,600 --> 02:33:12,360
Speaker 1: so they could live happily ever after. Wouldn't there have

2425
02:33:12,400 --> 02:33:14,840
Speaker 1: been some discussion about, hey, don't let them know that

2426
02:33:14,879 --> 02:33:16,440
Speaker 1: I was stressed out and about to have a heart

2427
02:33:16,440 --> 02:33:20,000
Speaker 1: attack right after I came home from killing Sam. Don't

2428
02:33:20,000 --> 02:33:22,119
Speaker 1: you think there would have been some discussion. I mean,

2429
02:33:22,160 --> 02:33:26,560
Speaker 1: that's the people's cases, that there's this this plot, this

2430
02:33:27,280 --> 02:33:30,360
Speaker 1: diabolical plot between these two people to get away with

2431
02:33:30,400 --> 02:33:36,080
Speaker 1: his crime. She acted exactly like anyone would act under

2432
02:33:36,080 --> 02:33:41,520
Speaker 1: those circumstances when she was interviewed. Chris Williams also said

2433
02:33:41,560 --> 02:33:45,280
Speaker 1: some things about Rachel that Mr Murphy argued. One of

2434
02:33:45,280 --> 02:33:47,800
Speaker 1: the things was for crying during the play. I don't

2435
02:33:47,800 --> 02:33:50,480
Speaker 1: know if you remember that. Um, he indicated, Yeah, she

2436
02:33:50,560 --> 02:33:52,920
Speaker 1: was crying when I went to see the play, and

2437
02:33:53,000 --> 02:33:55,600
Speaker 1: she explained to him listening, I was emotional because of

2438
02:33:55,600 --> 02:33:58,520
Speaker 1: what was going on that day. And the prosecutor talked

2439
02:33:58,520 --> 02:34:04,400
Speaker 1: a little bit about Rachel and emotions, how she's an actress. Now,

2440
02:34:04,520 --> 02:34:09,280
Speaker 1: Violet is this whole case. She really is. She's the

2441
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:16,640
Speaker 1: whole case because she provides the instance where we know

2442
02:34:16,760 --> 02:34:21,879
Speaker 1: exactly what Rachel knew and what Rachel's intent was. Rachel

2443
02:34:21,920 --> 02:34:25,160
Speaker 1: leaves Costa Masa p d after finding out her fiance

2444
02:34:25,280 --> 02:34:28,240
Speaker 1: has been arrested for accessory to murder. Police are telling

2445
02:34:28,240 --> 02:34:30,280
Speaker 1: her that he may be involved in more than that.

2446
02:34:31,360 --> 02:34:35,080
Speaker 1: She's freaking out. She's getting married, well, was supposed to

2447
02:34:35,080 --> 02:34:38,360
Speaker 1: get married the next day. So violets her friend. She's

2448
02:34:38,400 --> 02:34:42,160
Speaker 1: banging on the door. She collapses to the ground. We

2449
02:34:42,240 --> 02:34:45,840
Speaker 1: never heard Violet say she was totally faking it. I

2450
02:34:45,879 --> 02:34:49,040
Speaker 1: didn't believe she was emotional. We heard Violet say that

2451
02:34:49,120 --> 02:34:55,879
Speaker 1: Rachel was shaking, she was losing it. Is this how

2452
02:34:55,959 --> 02:34:58,879
Speaker 1: someone would act if they had prior knowledge of a crime,

2453
02:35:00,200 --> 02:35:01,760
Speaker 1: or is this how someone would act if they just

2454
02:35:01,760 --> 02:35:04,720
Speaker 1: found out for the first time that their fiance may

2455
02:35:04,720 --> 02:35:11,039
Speaker 1: have been involved in something horrific? So Violet takes her

2456
02:35:11,160 --> 02:35:14,039
Speaker 1: and they proceed to do what anyone would do. Let's

2457
02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:18,040
Speaker 1: notify our parents. Rachel goes to her parents place in

2458
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:23,119
Speaker 1: Long Beach, breaks the news. We have to start canceling

2459
02:35:23,160 --> 02:35:30,360
Speaker 1: wedding stuff. Is that weird? Of course not. But here's

2460
02:35:30,360 --> 02:35:33,320
Speaker 1: where the case blows open, and here's where the prosecution

2461
02:35:33,400 --> 02:35:37,600
Speaker 1: case falls apart. So when Tim pulls up in his

2462
02:35:37,760 --> 02:35:44,240
Speaker 1: vehicle and Rachel goes out to talk to Tim. Now

2463
02:35:44,280 --> 02:35:48,320
Speaker 1: in this instance, we get an idea of what Rachel's

2464
02:35:48,360 --> 02:35:53,440
Speaker 1: intent was and what her knowledge was. Tim says, Dan

2465
02:35:53,560 --> 02:35:58,680
Speaker 1: gave me the murder weapon, the murder weapon. I have

2466
02:35:58,800 --> 02:36:02,920
Speaker 1: the murder weapon. And the reason we know what Rachel's

2467
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:06,000
Speaker 1: intent was is because if there was a prior agreement

2468
02:36:06,160 --> 02:36:09,720
Speaker 1: between Dan and Rachel that they were gonna hide what

2469
02:36:09,840 --> 02:36:12,640
Speaker 1: Dan had done. If Rachel had known what Dan had

2470
02:36:12,640 --> 02:36:15,240
Speaker 1: done and didn't want to tell anyone, didn't want him

2471
02:36:15,280 --> 02:36:18,680
Speaker 1: to get arrested, get convicted, she wanted to protect Dan.

2472
02:36:19,840 --> 02:36:23,520
Speaker 1: Why in the world would she tell Violet what Tim

2473
02:36:23,600 --> 02:36:28,600
Speaker 1: just told her. Remember, Violet couldn't hear what Tim said.

2474
02:36:30,920 --> 02:36:34,280
Speaker 1: Rachel easily could have come back to Violet and said, oh,

2475
02:36:34,600 --> 02:36:37,920
Speaker 1: Tim's high out of his mind, he's acting crazy. She

2476
02:36:37,959 --> 02:36:40,920
Speaker 1: could have made up a million other lies. But what

2477
02:36:40,959 --> 02:36:45,040
Speaker 1: does she do? She tells Violet Tim has the murder weapon.

2478
02:36:45,520 --> 02:36:50,400
Speaker 1: Dan gave it to him. Is this what someone would

2479
02:36:50,400 --> 02:36:54,160
Speaker 1: do if they want to protect Dan, if they don't

2480
02:36:54,160 --> 02:36:56,600
Speaker 1: want anyone to find out that Dan's involved in this

2481
02:36:56,680 --> 02:37:00,640
Speaker 1: horrific crime, Why in the world would you tell anyone

2482
02:37:00,680 --> 02:37:07,360
Speaker 1: that now the prosecution wants to spend it that she

2483
02:37:07,440 --> 02:37:09,080
Speaker 1: did not. And when I say she I mean Rachel

2484
02:37:09,120 --> 02:37:13,959
Speaker 1: did not want to contact the authorities without information. There's

2485
02:37:14,000 --> 02:37:17,039
Speaker 1: actually absolutely no evidence at all that Rachel tried to

2486
02:37:17,120 --> 02:37:21,000
Speaker 1: dissuade Violet from calling Costa Masa p D. We can

2487
02:37:21,080 --> 02:37:23,840
Speaker 1: infer that violets on the phone trying to get the information.

2488
02:37:24,360 --> 02:37:28,920
Speaker 1: Rachel's driving the car, and it is Rachel who contacts

2489
02:37:28,959 --> 02:37:33,440
Speaker 1: Costa Masa p D and she gives the information to

2490
02:37:33,560 --> 02:37:37,480
Speaker 1: the lead investigator. He did not have that information prior

2491
02:37:37,520 --> 02:37:43,600
Speaker 1: to Rachel's call. We hear that the gun information was

2492
02:37:44,440 --> 02:37:47,680
Speaker 1: uh communicated to Long Beach p D, but Long Beach

2493
02:37:47,720 --> 02:37:50,560
Speaker 1: PD had not yet communicated that with Coasta Masa. Rachel

2494
02:37:50,600 --> 02:37:53,560
Speaker 1: had no idea or would not have any idea that

2495
02:37:53,640 --> 02:37:56,040
Speaker 1: any communication between Long Beach p D and the gun

2496
02:37:56,080 --> 02:37:59,520
Speaker 1: had happened. She's the main reason Costa Masa p D

2497
02:38:00,080 --> 02:38:03,720
Speaker 1: had the information on the murder weapon information on the

2498
02:38:03,760 --> 02:38:11,040
Speaker 1: backpack a treasure trove of damaging, devastating evidence against Dan.

2499
02:38:12,520 --> 02:38:16,400
Speaker 1: What do you think of Mr Medina's argument There both

2500
02:38:16,480 --> 02:38:18,560
Speaker 1: sounds a lot like I hate to keep going back

2501
02:38:18,560 --> 02:38:20,640
Speaker 1: to this. It sounds a lot like Matt Murphy's argument

2502
02:38:20,640 --> 02:38:23,240
Speaker 1: in our case. I mean he uses the word treasure

2503
02:38:23,240 --> 02:38:27,600
Speaker 1: trove attributing that to an active um good faith by

2504
02:38:27,720 --> 02:38:31,080
Speaker 1: Rachel actually an act of almost heroism. Matt Murphy called

2505
02:38:31,080 --> 02:38:34,200
Speaker 1: it delivering a cornucopia of evidence. There's they're they're from

2506
02:38:34,240 --> 02:38:38,160
Speaker 1: the same page in different cases. So he's making the

2507
02:38:38,280 --> 02:38:41,880
Speaker 1: arguments he's and they must have sounded very similar to

2508
02:38:41,920 --> 02:38:44,000
Speaker 1: the ear of Matt Murphy because they were his. In

2509
02:38:44,000 --> 02:38:48,840
Speaker 1: our case, I don't have a great feeling for Rachel Buffett.

2510
02:38:48,879 --> 02:38:51,840
Speaker 1: I think she should be held responsible or should have

2511
02:38:51,840 --> 02:38:55,680
Speaker 1: been held responsible like Daniel Wazniak was. He's doing his job.

2512
02:38:55,760 --> 02:38:58,520
Speaker 1: He's making the argument that's there for him if it

2513
02:38:58,600 --> 02:39:01,480
Speaker 1: was fair, and it's hard even if you represent Daniel

2514
02:39:01,520 --> 02:39:04,480
Speaker 1: Wasnac not to be bothered by the unfairness of this process.

2515
02:39:04,600 --> 02:39:09,199
Speaker 1: That what he's arguing is what Matt Murphy argued. He's

2516
02:39:09,240 --> 02:39:13,240
Speaker 1: coming again and again with why should you believe that

2517
02:39:13,280 --> 02:39:15,920
Speaker 1: she wasn't misled by Daniel Wozniak And what did Matt

2518
02:39:16,000 --> 02:39:19,120
Speaker 1: Murphy say in our closing argument on a common sense level,

2519
02:39:20,280 --> 02:39:23,199
Speaker 1: what's really the evidence that she knew she has Daniel

2520
02:39:23,200 --> 02:39:26,600
Speaker 1: Wazniac in her life. That's what Matt Murphy says in

2521
02:39:26,600 --> 02:39:29,480
Speaker 1: our case, and he's a pathological liar who knows what

2522
02:39:29,600 --> 02:39:34,040
Speaker 1: Daniel Wazniak was telling that woman. That's what Matt Murphy

2523
02:39:34,240 --> 02:39:38,640
Speaker 1: said in our case. So it's eerie to hear David

2524
02:39:38,680 --> 02:39:41,800
Speaker 1: Medina make the same argument that Matt Murphy made. I

2525
02:39:41,840 --> 02:39:45,000
Speaker 1: don't think in the end the truth is that I'm

2526
02:39:45,040 --> 02:39:47,720
Speaker 1: not saying he's doing anything other than argument. That wasn't

2527
02:39:47,800 --> 02:39:51,440
Speaker 1: that statement that you read wasn't from David Medina's opening argument.

2528
02:39:51,640 --> 02:39:55,800
Speaker 1: That's from Matt Murphy's That's that's from Matt Murphy's um

2529
02:39:56,520 --> 02:39:59,959
Speaker 1: closing argument. In the penalty phase. Let's go back to

2530
02:40:00,080 --> 02:40:04,360
Speaker 1: court now, the prosecution gave you a lot of what

2531
02:40:04,440 --> 02:40:10,960
Speaker 1: I would call circumstantial evidence that they argued two attempt

2532
02:40:10,959 --> 02:40:15,840
Speaker 1: to convince you that Rachel should have had knowledge that

2533
02:40:16,000 --> 02:40:20,600
Speaker 1: these crimes took place. She should have known that Dan

2534
02:40:20,800 --> 02:40:25,080
Speaker 1: was the one who committed these crimes. Some of that

2535
02:40:26,200 --> 02:40:32,120
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence would have been the laptop, the keys, the

2536
02:40:32,120 --> 02:40:37,120
Speaker 1: flip phone. What evidence did you did you hear that

2537
02:40:37,200 --> 02:40:42,879
Speaker 1: would convince you that Rachel would sit idly by while

2538
02:40:43,000 --> 02:40:48,400
Speaker 1: Dan goes upstairs and shoots Julie twice in the head

2539
02:40:50,000 --> 02:40:55,560
Speaker 1: and would be okay with that? Is that logical? What

2540
02:40:55,680 --> 02:41:01,720
Speaker 1: evidence did you hear that Rachel would hang out at

2541
02:41:01,720 --> 02:41:06,720
Speaker 1: her house with Chris Williams knowing that Dan was gonna

2542
02:41:06,800 --> 02:41:09,640
Speaker 1: go kill Sam and she was gonna be okay with that.

2543
02:41:11,240 --> 02:41:15,959
Speaker 1: None you didn't hear any of that. Now, if the

2544
02:41:16,000 --> 02:41:20,760
Speaker 1: motive is money because they need money. If she knew

2545
02:41:20,800 --> 02:41:24,320
Speaker 1: that Dan was going to kill Sam that day and

2546
02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:28,680
Speaker 1: drain his bank account of sixty dollars, why is she

2547
02:41:28,760 --> 02:41:31,120
Speaker 1: on the phone while Chris Williams is there or on

2548
02:41:31,160 --> 02:41:35,039
Speaker 1: the computer on Craigslist looking for a job. Why is

2549
02:41:35,040 --> 02:41:37,120
Speaker 1: she racking her brain trying to figure out how to

2550
02:41:37,120 --> 02:41:39,600
Speaker 1: get money If she knows she's going to come into

2551
02:41:39,640 --> 02:41:45,000
Speaker 1: this huge windfall of sixty dollars. She doesn't because she

2552
02:41:45,080 --> 02:41:51,400
Speaker 1: doesn't know what Dan's doing. She has no idea if

2553
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:54,400
Speaker 1: she did. Why in the world would she tell costamsa

2554
02:41:54,480 --> 02:41:58,440
Speaker 1: p D that he was at the location where Sam

2555
02:41:58,560 --> 02:42:02,000
Speaker 1: was murdered. Was Sam him on that day and he

2556
02:42:02,080 --> 02:42:04,400
Speaker 1: was freaking out about to have a heart attack after

2557
02:42:04,440 --> 02:42:11,920
Speaker 1: he got home, he wouldn't. She wouldn't. Now. In Tim's case,

2558
02:42:13,160 --> 02:42:16,480
Speaker 1: we heard that Tim had knowledge that the property he

2559
02:42:16,560 --> 02:42:20,400
Speaker 1: was taking was used in a crime. Dan told him

2560
02:42:20,440 --> 02:42:25,160
Speaker 1: to get rid of that property, and Tim did that.

2561
02:42:25,920 --> 02:42:31,360
Speaker 1: With the intent to help Dan guilty in that case.

2562
02:42:33,720 --> 02:42:39,040
Speaker 1: For Noah, Rachel's brother, different situation. We heard he was

2563
02:42:39,080 --> 02:42:44,480
Speaker 1: still arrested, but this was his factual situation. He didn't

2564
02:42:44,520 --> 02:42:47,920
Speaker 1: tell Costa Masa p d that they had made a

2565
02:42:48,000 --> 02:42:51,640
Speaker 1: stop to Wesley's while he was with Dan. He left

2566
02:42:51,640 --> 02:42:57,520
Speaker 1: out some very important information. But he was later released

2567
02:42:57,760 --> 02:43:00,680
Speaker 1: and you heard he was never convict it or charge.

2568
02:43:01,920 --> 02:43:05,560
Speaker 1: And the difference between the two is that Noah did

2569
02:43:05,600 --> 02:43:09,240
Speaker 1: not have the intent to protect Dan, nor did he

2570
02:43:09,320 --> 02:43:12,920
Speaker 1: have the knowledge that he was assisting Dan and committing

2571
02:43:12,920 --> 02:43:19,000
Speaker 1: a crime. And that's really the analysis for Rachel. Did

2572
02:43:19,040 --> 02:43:23,560
Speaker 1: she have the knowledge of these two murders? Did she

2573
02:43:23,720 --> 02:43:30,280
Speaker 1: intend to lie or omit information? And then did she

2574
02:43:30,440 --> 02:43:39,440
Speaker 1: do that to help Dan beat the rat? Did she? Yes, well,

2575
02:43:40,000 --> 02:43:43,320
Speaker 1: she did that and much more. She didn't want him

2576
02:43:43,360 --> 02:43:46,080
Speaker 1: to be arrested. She didn't want him to be charged.

2577
02:43:46,120 --> 02:43:48,240
Speaker 1: She knew it was going to lead back to her.

2578
02:43:49,160 --> 02:43:52,400
Speaker 1: He's the one who was most likely to speak. She

2579
02:43:52,600 --> 02:43:57,720
Speaker 1: is very good. She's you know, much more skilled at

2580
02:43:57,959 --> 02:44:01,600
Speaker 1: kind of holding her water. He knows how to navigate

2581
02:44:01,680 --> 02:44:03,760
Speaker 1: through these things much better. And she's shown that. I mean,

2582
02:44:03,760 --> 02:44:05,480
Speaker 1: you just look at it from beginning to end. She's

2583
02:44:05,520 --> 02:44:11,080
Speaker 1: quicker on her feet, she's smarter arguably, So, yeah, she

2584
02:44:11,600 --> 02:44:15,800
Speaker 1: did things to protect Ann Wozniak, to protect herself. Do

2585
02:44:15,840 --> 02:44:19,199
Speaker 1: you think that she figured at some point he's going

2586
02:44:19,280 --> 02:44:21,840
Speaker 1: down and I've got to do everything i can to

2587
02:44:21,879 --> 02:44:26,560
Speaker 1: save myself. Absolutely, and you can see that. You can

2588
02:44:26,600 --> 02:44:29,640
Speaker 1: see that at key moments, including in that call, right,

2589
02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:32,800
Speaker 1: she knows the calls recorded, and she's analyzing it at

2590
02:44:33,080 --> 02:44:37,360
Speaker 1: a rate that's much quicker than he does. She knows

2591
02:44:37,480 --> 02:44:40,800
Speaker 1: he's going down. She says he's going down. He doesn't

2592
02:44:40,800 --> 02:44:43,000
Speaker 1: even care that it's recorded anymore. You can tell there's

2593
02:44:43,000 --> 02:44:45,600
Speaker 1: a desperation, right. And one of the things that's interesting

2594
02:44:45,600 --> 02:44:49,240
Speaker 1: that Dave Medina said is that she never tried to

2595
02:44:49,400 --> 02:44:55,320
Speaker 1: stop him from confessing. Well, again, I don't think the

2596
02:44:55,360 --> 02:44:58,880
Speaker 1: recordings before them, there's been no reference of the details

2597
02:44:58,920 --> 02:45:01,840
Speaker 1: and it hasn't been played apparently, But in that recording,

2598
02:45:01,959 --> 02:45:05,960
Speaker 1: in actuality, she goes back to him at the end

2599
02:45:05,959 --> 02:45:09,119
Speaker 1: and says, don't take the blame for something you didn't do,

2600
02:45:09,879 --> 02:45:12,440
Speaker 1: because clearly he is taking the blame. He's not moving

2601
02:45:12,520 --> 02:45:17,360
Speaker 1: from it. He's in essence, adamant during that conversation that

2602
02:45:18,360 --> 02:45:21,080
Speaker 1: it's up, it's done, and she tries to save him

2603
02:45:21,120 --> 02:45:24,520
Speaker 1: from himself and to save herself from what he's doing,

2604
02:45:24,600 --> 02:45:28,360
Speaker 1: because she knows very well that the riskiest person in

2605
02:45:28,400 --> 02:45:31,720
Speaker 1: that conversation is not her, it's him. I know that

2606
02:45:31,800 --> 02:45:35,240
Speaker 1: you're going to think this is a far out, wacky,

2607
02:45:35,800 --> 02:45:39,800
Speaker 1: crazy theory on my part, But have you ever thought

2608
02:45:39,840 --> 02:45:42,760
Speaker 1: for a moment that she set him up from the beginning.

2609
02:45:43,760 --> 02:45:48,000
Speaker 1: She did find the sex tape. He did tell her.

2610
02:45:48,240 --> 02:45:51,840
Speaker 1: He said that the sex tape was an intentional filming

2611
02:45:52,000 --> 02:45:55,200
Speaker 1: of this affair he had with a former girlfriend because

2612
02:45:55,240 --> 02:45:58,800
Speaker 1: he wanted to extort money from their family, even though

2613
02:45:58,840 --> 02:46:01,800
Speaker 1: this family that I know well said he never ever

2614
02:46:01,879 --> 02:46:04,560
Speaker 1: came to us for money or ask for money. So

2615
02:46:04,680 --> 02:46:09,520
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, is it a possibility to me? It's

2616
02:46:09,560 --> 02:46:12,760
Speaker 1: not the most reasonable of possibilities. I just don't think so.

2617
02:46:12,840 --> 02:46:17,920
Speaker 1: I think, you know, because in that Fernando Perez letter,

2618
02:46:17,959 --> 02:46:23,360
Speaker 1: that informant letter that was not really introduced right in court,

2619
02:46:23,440 --> 02:46:28,520
Speaker 1: but there was this letter where allegedly Dan Wozniak said

2620
02:46:28,560 --> 02:46:33,480
Speaker 1: to Fernando that Rachel was aware of the plan to

2621
02:46:33,640 --> 02:46:38,160
Speaker 1: kill Sam, and she allegedly said, do whatever you have

2622
02:46:38,200 --> 02:46:40,400
Speaker 1: to do to make us happy. Well, but that's a

2623
02:46:40,400 --> 02:46:42,640
Speaker 1: different thing to me. To me that she's all in

2624
02:46:42,720 --> 02:46:45,120
Speaker 1: on the plan, she's all in on it could be

2625
02:46:45,160 --> 02:46:48,480
Speaker 1: all in on a setup too. To me, that's not

2626
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:51,440
Speaker 1: what that that says when I and I want to

2627
02:46:51,440 --> 02:46:53,680
Speaker 1: make it clear, I think that she's prepared to let

2628
02:46:53,760 --> 02:46:57,200
Speaker 1: him go down. It's not that, but the notion that

2629
02:46:57,240 --> 02:47:00,200
Speaker 1: they're going to do the crime from the beginning. First

2630
02:47:00,200 --> 02:47:02,160
Speaker 1: of all, I think the crime changes. I think she

2631
02:47:02,240 --> 02:47:04,840
Speaker 1: has a role in that second crime that's far bigger

2632
02:47:05,480 --> 02:47:07,920
Speaker 1: than is talked about in this case. If you look

2633
02:47:07,920 --> 02:47:10,280
Speaker 1: at the timing of all sorts of things, including those

2634
02:47:10,320 --> 02:47:13,440
Speaker 1: text messages, and how they change once they're back together.

2635
02:47:13,600 --> 02:47:16,760
Speaker 1: I think, and I argued, that she had the primary

2636
02:47:16,879 --> 02:47:20,160
Speaker 1: role in that second murder. So I just don't know

2637
02:47:20,280 --> 02:47:23,000
Speaker 1: that that. I think I have enough evidence to say

2638
02:47:23,120 --> 02:47:26,120
Speaker 1: she somehow thought this was all going to happen and

2639
02:47:26,280 --> 02:47:28,040
Speaker 1: she would be left with all this money and he'd

2640
02:47:28,040 --> 02:47:30,560
Speaker 1: go to prison. That's a that's a risky thing for

2641
02:47:30,600 --> 02:47:32,840
Speaker 1: anyone to think that you're going to get through all

2642
02:47:32,879 --> 02:47:35,520
Speaker 1: of it. I think she thinks sir going to get

2643
02:47:35,520 --> 02:47:38,760
Speaker 1: the money, and but it wouldn't be the first time

2644
02:47:38,800 --> 02:47:42,080
Speaker 1: a theory like that was reality. Let's go back to

2645
02:47:42,400 --> 02:47:46,920
Speaker 1: Mr Medina's final arguments. I'm gonna ask you to deliberate

2646
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:52,160
Speaker 1: look at everything. I'm convinced that when you do, you'll

2647
02:47:52,200 --> 02:47:55,000
Speaker 1: see that Rachel did not have the intent to protect

2648
02:47:55,000 --> 02:48:00,480
Speaker 1: this monster. She would not have been okay with what

2649
02:48:00,520 --> 02:48:05,880
Speaker 1: he did and protecting him and then getting married and

2650
02:48:05,920 --> 02:48:10,959
Speaker 1: going on a honeymoon. Do you think this case is

2651
02:48:11,000 --> 02:48:15,560
Speaker 1: the poster case for a reasonable doubt? No, it's not

2652
02:48:15,600 --> 02:48:20,480
Speaker 1: a to me. It's it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

2653
02:48:21,520 --> 02:48:25,160
Speaker 1: But she shouldn't be convicted. There are two different things.

2654
02:48:25,480 --> 02:48:29,520
Speaker 1: I think there's an ample evidence that she was participating

2655
02:48:29,560 --> 02:48:32,959
Speaker 1: in the murder. I believe there's apple evidence that she

2656
02:48:33,160 --> 02:48:37,720
Speaker 1: was attempting to help um Dan in terms of avoiding

2657
02:48:37,720 --> 02:48:42,200
Speaker 1: culpability and avoiding really avoiding more questioning that could lead

2658
02:48:42,200 --> 02:48:45,080
Speaker 1: back to her. I mean, I think that's what her worry.

2659
02:48:46,200 --> 02:48:48,320
Speaker 1: And now we'll take a quick break and hear from

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2693
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Speaker 1: With that said, we now have an opportunity or Mr

2694
02:51:16,200 --> 02:51:20,800
Speaker 1: Murphy has an opportunity to rebut everything that the jury

2695
02:51:20,879 --> 02:51:25,240
Speaker 1: just heard from Mr Medina. So let's go back to

2696
02:51:25,400 --> 02:51:28,080
Speaker 1: Matt Murphy where he is in the process of talking

2697
02:51:28,120 --> 02:51:33,840
Speaker 1: about the difference between circumstantial evidence and direct evidence. Circumstantial

2698
02:51:33,840 --> 02:51:37,320
Speaker 1: evidence has afforded the same exact weight as direct evidence,

2699
02:51:38,120 --> 02:51:43,439
Speaker 1: and oftentimes circumstantial evidence doesn't forget, does not bias. Oftentimes

2700
02:51:43,440 --> 02:51:46,440
Speaker 1: it's some of the best evidence that we have, and

2701
02:51:46,480 --> 02:51:52,640
Speaker 1: when we're talking about assessing what somebody was thinking, it's

2702
02:51:52,680 --> 02:51:57,600
Speaker 1: always circumstantial evidence. You know. The Coast to Massa police

2703
02:51:58,280 --> 02:52:02,160
Speaker 1: have often said to me that they from the beginning

2704
02:52:02,320 --> 02:52:05,680
Speaker 1: thought Rachel Buffett was involved in these murders and that

2705
02:52:05,720 --> 02:52:08,960
Speaker 1: should have been charged for murder. But they told me

2706
02:52:09,000 --> 02:52:14,000
Speaker 1: that Mr. Murphy's answer was always it's circumstantial. It's circumstantial.

2707
02:52:15,120 --> 02:52:18,080
Speaker 1: Yet here he seems to really make a point of

2708
02:52:18,120 --> 02:52:22,840
Speaker 1: saying that circumstantial and direct are evaluated equally in a

2709
02:52:22,879 --> 02:52:26,280
Speaker 1: court of law. Cases are built on circumstantial evidence. Every day,

2710
02:52:26,320 --> 02:52:29,640
Speaker 1: he's building this case on circumstantial evidence. So, you know,

2711
02:52:29,720 --> 02:52:32,959
Speaker 1: one of the things that came out after the trial,

2712
02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:36,920
Speaker 1: part of the informant related litigation, was we learned that

2713
02:52:37,000 --> 02:52:42,480
Speaker 1: Detective Morales had written a letter to the Sheriff's department

2714
02:52:42,520 --> 02:52:44,840
Speaker 1: to let them know they wanted a mail cover. That

2715
02:52:44,879 --> 02:52:47,000
Speaker 1: means they wanted to watch the mail that was going

2716
02:52:47,040 --> 02:52:49,480
Speaker 1: to be sent out of the jail on someone they

2717
02:52:49,480 --> 02:52:53,120
Speaker 1: were about to arrest. And we didn't know this during

2718
02:52:53,160 --> 02:52:55,560
Speaker 1: the trial, but later we would get this letter from

2719
02:52:55,560 --> 02:52:59,960
Speaker 1: Detective Moralse and you got a letter from detective moralist

2720
02:53:00,120 --> 02:53:04,440
Speaker 1: just received the letter that was from detective Morales to

2721
02:53:04,840 --> 02:53:08,119
Speaker 1: the informant. Whoever the informant was, Okay, there's a letter

2722
02:53:08,200 --> 02:53:13,039
Speaker 1: we learned about which is from detective Morales to a

2723
02:53:13,120 --> 02:53:17,640
Speaker 1: deputy in the jail. They want to watch the mail

2724
02:53:17,760 --> 02:53:20,840
Speaker 1: that's about to go out for an inmate they're about

2725
02:53:20,879 --> 02:53:23,680
Speaker 1: to arrest. The inmate isn't named in the letter, but

2726
02:53:23,720 --> 02:53:27,320
Speaker 1: it's clearly Rachel Buffett, and the letters says we're about

2727
02:53:27,360 --> 02:53:33,120
Speaker 1: to charge a co conspirator in the Daniel Wozniak case.

2728
02:53:33,640 --> 02:53:37,000
Speaker 1: Was it dated, Yes, it's dated in two thousand and twelve,

2729
02:53:37,040 --> 02:53:40,520
Speaker 1: and it pre dates her charge and her arrest, and

2730
02:53:40,560 --> 02:53:43,599
Speaker 1: her charge and arrest, and very clearly, from my perspective,

2731
02:53:44,240 --> 02:53:47,439
Speaker 1: they were going to arrest her as a co conspirator,

2732
02:53:47,600 --> 02:53:51,640
Speaker 1: which is for murder. And there was some dialogue that

2733
02:53:51,720 --> 02:53:55,160
Speaker 1: took place. They told me point blank that Mr Murphy

2734
02:53:55,200 --> 02:53:57,879
Speaker 1: makes the decision. He makes the call. He's their prosecutor.

2735
02:53:57,959 --> 02:54:01,960
Speaker 1: And he said it's not enough, it's not enough, it's circumstantial. Well,

2736
02:54:02,000 --> 02:54:04,800
Speaker 1: it's right that he makes the call, and it's right

2737
02:54:04,840 --> 02:54:08,160
Speaker 1: to reject cases. I mean, I believe in that fundamentally.

2738
02:54:08,200 --> 02:54:11,480
Speaker 1: I don't want just police officers making calls. I think

2739
02:54:11,480 --> 02:54:14,600
Speaker 1: the lawyers should make the call. You know, there's just

2740
02:54:14,680 --> 02:54:18,320
Speaker 1: so much that's happened here. It's very hard to evaluate

2741
02:54:18,360 --> 02:54:21,199
Speaker 1: the reasons, the legitimate reasons for those types of decisions.

2742
02:54:21,240 --> 02:54:24,400
Speaker 1: From my perspective, I just don't I can't follow anything

2743
02:54:24,440 --> 02:54:27,840
Speaker 1: here anymore. And that people can argue so differently about

2744
02:54:27,959 --> 02:54:31,160
Speaker 1: evidence that when I'm now supposed to rely upon good

2745
02:54:31,200 --> 02:54:34,080
Speaker 1: faith decision making on those calls, it just is not

2746
02:54:34,240 --> 02:54:37,400
Speaker 1: something I can accept. I just found when not listening

2747
02:54:37,440 --> 02:54:41,560
Speaker 1: to him defend circumstantial and sometimes that's the best evidence

2748
02:54:41,600 --> 02:54:43,960
Speaker 1: we have, and so forth. It just struck me as

2749
02:54:43,959 --> 02:54:47,040
Speaker 1: odd when when he used that same reason to tell

2750
02:54:47,080 --> 02:54:49,560
Speaker 1: the Coast of Massa police that he would not charge

2751
02:54:49,800 --> 02:54:53,600
Speaker 1: Rachel with murder. Let's go back to Mr Murphy's rebuttal.

2752
02:54:54,600 --> 02:54:58,080
Speaker 1: The first Mr Data started by saying, in order to

2753
02:54:58,160 --> 02:55:01,000
Speaker 1: convict the government has to prove that she knew Dan

2754
02:55:01,080 --> 02:55:04,000
Speaker 1: Butcher two people, you have to believe she was okay

2755
02:55:04,000 --> 02:55:09,160
Speaker 1: with that. That's not actually correct. All she has to

2756
02:55:09,160 --> 02:55:12,120
Speaker 1: know is that he's involved in a mur doesn't have

2757
02:55:12,200 --> 02:55:14,280
Speaker 1: to know the details, doesn't have to know that he

2758
02:55:14,360 --> 02:55:19,080
Speaker 1: planned it. All she has to know is that somebody's dead.

2759
02:55:19,760 --> 02:55:23,080
Speaker 1: Daniel w wasna helped in some way. That's it. It's

2760
02:55:23,120 --> 02:55:27,520
Speaker 1: like Tim. Tim has no idea, there has no idea

2761
02:55:27,560 --> 02:55:30,680
Speaker 1: what his brother got into. He just knows he's involved.

2762
02:55:31,680 --> 02:55:37,000
Speaker 1: It's a homicide, and he's got the murder weapon. It's

2763
02:55:37,000 --> 02:55:41,400
Speaker 1: all Tim now in a way. You know, you could

2764
02:55:41,480 --> 02:55:44,320
Speaker 1: argue Tim is even he's a victim of his brother stuff,

2765
02:55:44,760 --> 02:55:48,320
Speaker 1: but he's still guilty of that PC thirty two. She

2766
02:55:48,560 --> 02:55:51,280
Speaker 1: is up to her eyeballs in Daniel Watsney Next Life.

2767
02:55:51,840 --> 02:55:55,520
Speaker 1: Everything that Mr Medina just said about Daniel Wadni is accurate.

2768
02:55:56,240 --> 02:55:58,320
Speaker 1: I can stand up here for another forty five minutes

2769
02:55:58,320 --> 02:56:02,680
Speaker 1: and throw in descriptive terms for what DANIELA. Nacis. He

2770
02:56:02,879 --> 02:56:07,000
Speaker 1: is a pathological liar. He is a monster, but he's

2771
02:56:07,200 --> 02:56:13,840
Speaker 1: her little monster. She knows him, not a stranger, she

2772
02:56:14,040 --> 02:56:17,680
Speaker 1: knows him. All of the stuff goes on right under

2773
02:56:17,720 --> 02:56:21,160
Speaker 1: her nose. So she doesn't have to know that butcher

2774
02:56:21,200 --> 02:56:24,039
Speaker 1: two people and be okay with it. She just has

2775
02:56:24,080 --> 02:56:27,039
Speaker 1: to know he's involved and tell police things that are

2776
02:56:27,080 --> 02:56:31,440
Speaker 1: not true in an attempt to help them. You listen

2777
02:56:31,480 --> 02:56:34,800
Speaker 1: to her lie. She lied about him, lieving the apartment,

2778
02:56:35,160 --> 02:56:39,760
Speaker 1: She lied about Chris Williams repeatedly. That's those aren't mistakes,

2779
02:56:41,480 --> 02:56:46,520
Speaker 1: should we yes? I mean, look again and again, We're

2780
02:56:46,560 --> 02:56:50,080
Speaker 1: an agreement in this case, we're an agreement. It's just

2781
02:56:50,200 --> 02:56:53,360
Speaker 1: I'm hearing a completely different human being. I think they're

2782
02:56:53,400 --> 02:56:57,520
Speaker 1: occupying the same suit or a similar one. But it's

2783
02:56:57,600 --> 02:57:00,160
Speaker 1: it's just a completely different argument from what we heard

2784
02:57:00,160 --> 02:57:03,920
Speaker 1: in our case. It's what we would have argued. You know,

2785
02:57:03,959 --> 02:57:06,480
Speaker 1: obviously there's different pieces of evidence in two different cases,

2786
02:57:06,520 --> 02:57:09,640
Speaker 1: but it's what we were arguing in essence throughout. It's

2787
02:57:09,680 --> 02:57:13,879
Speaker 1: not credible that she's doing anything other than covering up

2788
02:57:14,280 --> 02:57:17,080
Speaker 1: that she's trying to protect herself and him because she's

2789
02:57:17,120 --> 02:57:19,720
Speaker 1: afraid of what he could do in terms of revealing

2790
02:57:19,720 --> 02:57:22,480
Speaker 1: her culpability. So I mean, I'm in agreement with Matt Murphy.

2791
02:57:22,560 --> 02:57:25,320
Speaker 1: That's that's the unusual thing here. I just wish he

2792
02:57:25,320 --> 02:57:30,480
Speaker 1: would have said this in our case. Legally, did Mr

2793
02:57:30,560 --> 02:57:35,080
Speaker 1: Medina have the ability to introduce the interview that took

2794
02:57:35,080 --> 02:57:38,680
Speaker 1: place between Rachel Buffett and Costa Masa police on June nine,

2795
02:57:38,840 --> 02:57:43,760
Speaker 1: which would be considered if you went with their numerical

2796
02:57:43,879 --> 02:57:47,240
Speaker 1: chronological order, that would be the third interview, Well, the

2797
02:57:47,240 --> 02:57:49,720
Speaker 1: prosecution would have had an argument that no, he was

2798
02:57:49,800 --> 02:57:51,800
Speaker 1: not able to introduce that without calling her as a

2799
02:57:51,800 --> 02:57:55,640
Speaker 1: witness because it's hearsay at that point. So you know,

2800
02:57:55,680 --> 02:57:58,879
Speaker 1: if there's an interview and the prosecution introduces or the

2801
02:57:58,879 --> 02:58:02,240
Speaker 1: defense introduces one portion of that same interview. By law,

2802
02:58:02,280 --> 02:58:04,600
Speaker 1: you can introduce the rest of it, but once you

2803
02:58:04,640 --> 02:58:08,440
Speaker 1: start stretching into other interviews. No, he's not legally entitled.

2804
02:58:08,600 --> 02:58:11,400
Speaker 1: Is that because Mr Murphy dropped the third count so

2805
02:58:11,480 --> 02:58:14,920
Speaker 1: he stayed away from that interview. No, it's not because

2806
02:58:14,920 --> 02:58:17,800
Speaker 1: of that. It's because legally it's hearsay and you have

2807
02:58:17,920 --> 02:58:20,520
Speaker 1: your defendant available if you want to call the person

2808
02:58:20,600 --> 02:58:23,959
Speaker 1: to testify. But it's an out of court statement by her.

2809
02:58:24,240 --> 02:58:28,080
Speaker 1: So so why could why is the second interview introduced them?

2810
02:58:28,120 --> 02:58:31,320
Speaker 1: It's considered what's called an admission, So anytime a defendant

2811
02:58:31,400 --> 02:58:33,560
Speaker 1: makes a statement about the facts of the case, the

2812
02:58:33,600 --> 02:58:36,880
Speaker 1: admission comes in. But so, even though Matt Murphy is

2813
02:58:36,920 --> 02:58:40,560
Speaker 1: telling Jerrs she never revealed Chris Williams in that time,

2814
02:58:40,879 --> 02:58:43,359
Speaker 1: but she did reveal it in the June ninth interview,

2815
02:58:43,920 --> 02:58:48,280
Speaker 1: there's no way Mr Medina could tell yours that that's right,

2816
02:58:48,320 --> 02:58:51,440
Speaker 1: not unless Mr Murphy was in agreement with doing that.

2817
02:58:51,680 --> 02:58:53,080
Speaker 1: And I don't know whether he would have been an

2818
02:58:53,080 --> 02:58:56,600
Speaker 1: agreement or not. Let's go back now and listen to

2819
02:58:56,959 --> 02:59:02,640
Speaker 1: Mr Murphy's rebuttal closing argument. Okay, Violet is going to

2820
02:59:02,680 --> 02:59:06,840
Speaker 1: the cops and Rachel Buffett knows it. She's got to know.

2821
02:59:06,879 --> 02:59:09,280
Speaker 1: There's a hard working police and they've got it just

2822
02:59:09,440 --> 02:59:12,720
Speaker 1: about completely figured out, and Daniel Wisney has going down.

2823
02:59:14,640 --> 02:59:16,400
Speaker 1: Does that mean that she has to be involved in

2824
02:59:16,440 --> 02:59:19,600
Speaker 1: the planning or the execution, Absolutely not. She just has

2825
02:59:19,640 --> 02:59:24,040
Speaker 1: to have knowledge, not a diabolical plot between the two

2826
02:59:24,080 --> 02:59:26,040
Speaker 1: of them. Let's give her the benefit of the doubt.

2827
02:59:26,040 --> 02:59:28,519
Speaker 1: To say Wasnac trying to keep her in the dark

2828
02:59:30,200 --> 02:59:34,960
Speaker 1: is kind of absurd. And there was a roll of eyes, right,

2829
02:59:35,320 --> 02:59:37,680
Speaker 1: it is important to see what he's doing at that moment.

2830
02:59:38,080 --> 02:59:43,640
Speaker 1: Kind of absurd roll of eyes. Mr Murphy says, the

2831
02:59:43,720 --> 02:59:48,199
Speaker 1: notion that Daniel Wisnya kept her in the dark is absurd.

2832
02:59:50,000 --> 02:59:53,440
Speaker 1: This is what he told our jury in a death

2833
02:59:53,480 --> 02:59:56,760
Speaker 1: penalty case with a person potentially down the road being

2834
02:59:56,840 --> 03:00:01,720
Speaker 1: executed by lethal injection, looking at whether she has knowledge.

2835
03:00:01,879 --> 03:00:05,120
Speaker 1: When you're talking about that guy, a pathological liar that

2836
03:00:05,200 --> 03:00:09,080
Speaker 1: he is, who knows what Daniel Wisnik was telling that woman,

2837
03:00:09,400 --> 03:00:14,520
Speaker 1: So he told our jury that he would keep her

2838
03:00:14,520 --> 03:00:19,720
Speaker 1: in the dark. He tells this jury mockingly, almost how

2839
03:00:19,800 --> 03:00:23,320
Speaker 1: absurd for any of you to believe that? And this

2840
03:00:23,400 --> 03:00:27,120
Speaker 1: is consistent with his arguments and his presentation in the

2841
03:00:27,200 --> 03:00:30,520
Speaker 1: opening and the closing. Throughout, Folks, it would be absurd

2842
03:00:30,600 --> 03:00:34,240
Speaker 1: to believe he's not telling her every day about what's

2843
03:00:34,240 --> 03:00:36,920
Speaker 1: going on and talking to her. So to do this

2844
03:00:37,160 --> 03:00:41,199
Speaker 1: is really terrible. It's really terrible because you don't have

2845
03:00:41,280 --> 03:00:44,800
Speaker 1: two different analyzes. He does not have them. He has

2846
03:00:44,920 --> 03:00:48,080
Speaker 1: one analysis, and it's this one. Because this is the

2847
03:00:48,080 --> 03:00:51,000
Speaker 1: only one that makes sense. Why did he tell our

2848
03:00:51,080 --> 03:00:56,439
Speaker 1: jury that? So let's finish listening to Mr Murphy's rebuttal,

2849
03:00:56,600 --> 03:01:00,280
Speaker 1: where he's focusing in on some of the things Mr

2850
03:01:00,320 --> 03:01:04,840
Speaker 1: Medina said in his closing argument. If you can draw

2851
03:01:05,280 --> 03:01:08,480
Speaker 1: two or more reasonable conclusions from the circumstantial evidence, and

2852
03:01:08,520 --> 03:01:11,200
Speaker 1: one of those reasonable conclusions points to innocence and the

2853
03:01:11,240 --> 03:01:13,680
Speaker 1: other to guilt, you must accept the one that points

2854
03:01:13,680 --> 03:01:16,200
Speaker 1: to innocence. That's what Mr Medina just went through. You

2855
03:01:16,840 --> 03:01:19,920
Speaker 1: went through it with you. He's exactly right. But the

2856
03:01:20,000 --> 03:01:25,040
Speaker 1: second part of this is equally important. Okay. The second

2857
03:01:25,040 --> 03:01:30,640
Speaker 1: part is, however, when considering circumstantial evidence, you must accept

2858
03:01:30,760 --> 03:01:36,120
Speaker 1: only reasonable conclusions and reject any that are unreasonable. Your

2859
03:01:36,280 --> 03:01:40,360
Speaker 1: duty bound as jurors. If you hear stuff that's not

2860
03:01:40,560 --> 03:01:44,440
Speaker 1: reasonable folks. You must reject them, whether I present it

2861
03:01:44,520 --> 03:01:47,200
Speaker 1: or whether the defense presents it. Number One, they're broke,

2862
03:01:47,360 --> 03:01:51,119
Speaker 1: so Wozniak catches a plan to solve their many money problems.

2863
03:01:51,120 --> 03:01:56,879
Speaker 1: So far, so good. He does this all by himself. Again,

2864
03:01:57,160 --> 03:02:02,119
Speaker 1: so far so good. He plans murders on a computer

2865
03:02:02,240 --> 03:02:04,400
Speaker 1: she uses all the time, and she never does a

2866
03:02:04,400 --> 03:02:07,320
Speaker 1: Google search for anything beginning with the letter H. And

2867
03:02:07,440 --> 03:02:12,279
Speaker 1: he is worried about her finding out they're planning a wedding.

2868
03:02:12,280 --> 03:02:14,920
Speaker 1: He's planning a honeymoon, but he never mentions the honeymoon

2869
03:02:14,920 --> 03:02:18,520
Speaker 1: that he's planning to her. He really wants to keep

2870
03:02:18,520 --> 03:02:20,680
Speaker 1: her in the dark about the murders, so he walks

2871
03:02:20,760 --> 03:02:22,879
Speaker 1: the first victim down to their apartment so she can

2872
03:02:22,920 --> 03:02:25,600
Speaker 1: see that he's the last person with Sam before he disappears.

2873
03:02:28,160 --> 03:02:33,640
Speaker 1: He returns flustered, sweaty, stressed out mess, but it never

2874
03:02:33,680 --> 03:02:35,959
Speaker 1: occurs to her that his demeanor may be related to

2875
03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Sam's disappearance. Mm hmm. She sees her unemployed, broke fiance

2876
03:02:43,959 --> 03:02:51,800
Speaker 1: suddenly has a bunch of money by pure coincidence, at

2877
03:02:51,840 --> 03:02:54,720
Speaker 1: the exact same time he's committing this murder in another city.

2878
03:02:55,160 --> 03:02:58,000
Speaker 1: She logs onto his Facebook account, making it appear like

2879
03:02:58,080 --> 03:03:01,320
Speaker 1: dan is in Costa Mesa. I as to make that argument.

2880
03:03:01,320 --> 03:03:04,879
Speaker 1: I want to emphasize I'm not arguing that that shows

2881
03:03:04,920 --> 03:03:07,400
Speaker 1: that she is a part of the murder. What I'm

2882
03:03:07,480 --> 03:03:10,480
Speaker 1: arguing is he has made her a part of his

2883
03:03:10,600 --> 03:03:14,840
Speaker 1: subjective plan. He has involved her in that, and she's

2884
03:03:14,879 --> 03:03:18,600
Speaker 1: on notice that she's doing that. What does that mean

2885
03:03:19,520 --> 03:03:23,560
Speaker 1: she's on notice? It means nothing. It means he got

2886
03:03:23,560 --> 03:03:26,160
Speaker 1: caught a mistake here, kind of a big one. Right.

2887
03:03:27,200 --> 03:03:33,160
Speaker 1: You cannot reasonably argue that that was dan Wozniak unwittingly

2888
03:03:33,320 --> 03:03:37,640
Speaker 1: pulling her into it. His point was he puts dan

2889
03:03:37,720 --> 03:03:40,440
Speaker 1: Wosniak in cost to Mace at the time of the murder,

2890
03:03:40,440 --> 03:03:43,360
Speaker 1: which means he's she's The point is that she puts

2891
03:03:43,480 --> 03:03:46,520
Speaker 1: dan Wassniak in custom at the time of the She

2892
03:03:46,680 --> 03:03:49,600
Speaker 1: puts dan Wosniac in cost Maze at the time of

2893
03:03:49,640 --> 03:03:52,280
Speaker 1: the murder. You don't put someone in a place at

2894
03:03:52,280 --> 03:03:55,000
Speaker 1: the time of the murder. I mean what he's suggesting there,

2895
03:03:55,160 --> 03:03:58,000
Speaker 1: he immediately jumped on himself, right, I mean he that

2896
03:03:58,080 --> 03:04:02,320
Speaker 1: makes that makes no sense exactly. You can't subjectively put

2897
03:04:02,400 --> 03:04:05,520
Speaker 1: somebody into the murder. You either put them into the

2898
03:04:05,640 --> 03:04:10,400
Speaker 1: murder plan or not. And the plan would be Rachel

2899
03:04:10,560 --> 03:04:14,400
Speaker 1: go on the Facebook while I'm committing the murderer, and

2900
03:04:14,440 --> 03:04:16,640
Speaker 1: there's no way around that. And I think he knew

2901
03:04:16,720 --> 03:04:20,400
Speaker 1: he messed that up and he wanted to walk himself out,

2902
03:04:20,400 --> 03:04:22,520
Speaker 1: so he got out of there quickly, but not quickly enough.

2903
03:04:23,040 --> 03:04:25,480
Speaker 1: He believes, I'm going to take him at his word,

2904
03:04:25,560 --> 03:04:27,960
Speaker 1: not how he tried to undo it. He believes that

2905
03:04:28,040 --> 03:04:33,360
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett went on that page to help him get

2906
03:04:33,360 --> 03:04:35,880
Speaker 1: away with murder and to help her get away with murder.

2907
03:04:35,959 --> 03:04:40,280
Speaker 1: Aished right there on a plan together. In that rebuttal,

2908
03:04:40,720 --> 03:04:43,760
Speaker 1: you can see right in the rebuttal that we just heard,

2909
03:04:43,840 --> 03:04:47,200
Speaker 1: you can see you can see Matt Murphy make this air.

2910
03:04:47,920 --> 03:04:50,160
Speaker 1: It's not an air. It's the truth that's the problem.

2911
03:04:50,160 --> 03:04:52,920
Speaker 1: And you know when he misspoke, but he misspoke in

2912
03:04:53,000 --> 03:04:56,920
Speaker 1: speaking the truth. Yes, I mean he noticed and believes

2913
03:04:57,040 --> 03:05:01,600
Speaker 1: that she accessed his face book so that she could

2914
03:05:01,640 --> 03:05:04,279
Speaker 1: create an alibi for both of them. That's what he believes.

2915
03:05:04,360 --> 03:05:07,840
Speaker 1: Let's be real. So he has another piece of evidence

2916
03:05:07,840 --> 03:05:11,040
Speaker 1: that I've been waiting for throughout closing argument and rebuttal,

2917
03:05:11,120 --> 03:05:14,959
Speaker 1: which he makes a large point of in the opening statement,

2918
03:05:14,959 --> 03:05:18,279
Speaker 1: which is the Facebook messages the evening of Julie kibuis

2919
03:05:18,360 --> 03:05:23,000
Speaker 1: She's death. Right, there's the Facebook message that Rachel sends

2920
03:05:23,040 --> 03:05:28,240
Speaker 1: out two minutes after, there's a luring message from Daniel Wozniak.

2921
03:05:28,360 --> 03:05:31,280
Speaker 1: He talked about it in his opening statement, and he

2922
03:05:31,360 --> 03:05:35,400
Speaker 1: talked aexts from Sam's phone to Julie when Dan is

2923
03:05:35,440 --> 03:05:38,640
Speaker 1: pretending to be Sam luring her to Sam's apartment. Right,

2924
03:05:39,200 --> 03:05:40,800
Speaker 1: So he talks about it, and he talks about it

2925
03:05:40,879 --> 03:05:43,360
Speaker 1: pretty compelling. I think he thought, um. I think he

2926
03:05:43,440 --> 03:05:46,000
Speaker 1: thought over the next few days about how close he

2927
03:05:46,080 --> 03:05:50,880
Speaker 1: was getting, or what he believed was being approaching compelling

2928
03:05:50,920 --> 03:05:54,880
Speaker 1: evidence of inconsistency and evidence of her involvement in the murder.

2929
03:05:54,920 --> 03:05:58,160
Speaker 1: I think most importantly, he started to think about, this

2930
03:05:58,280 --> 03:06:01,960
Speaker 1: is really going to make it look like she's participating

2931
03:06:02,000 --> 03:06:05,280
Speaker 1: in the murder. Because of the circumstantial evidence that he presents,

2932
03:06:05,800 --> 03:06:10,360
Speaker 1: that Facebook message is perhaps the most compelling. Mr Murphy's

2933
03:06:10,440 --> 03:06:14,920
Speaker 1: arguing that the text message luring Julie takes place at

2934
03:06:14,920 --> 03:06:18,120
Speaker 1: a time when Rachel is sitting next to him. That's

2935
03:06:18,120 --> 03:06:21,560
Speaker 1: one of his points. The first luring message to Julie

2936
03:06:21,840 --> 03:06:25,720
Speaker 1: happens after he's left Rachel in Campden, Martinique, and he

2937
03:06:25,760 --> 03:06:28,120
Speaker 1: goes back to Liberty because he wanted to check and

2938
03:06:28,120 --> 03:06:30,680
Speaker 1: see if there was any buzz. He knew that he

2939
03:06:30,760 --> 03:06:33,280
Speaker 1: left Sam's body in the attic and he wanted to

2940
03:06:33,280 --> 03:06:36,840
Speaker 1: see if there was any commotion or anything. But at

2941
03:06:36,920 --> 03:06:40,039
Speaker 1: that point is when he then sends his first quote

2942
03:06:40,080 --> 03:06:43,320
Speaker 1: unquote luring message. Up till then, all of his messages

2943
03:06:43,360 --> 03:06:47,800
Speaker 1: to Julie were pretty innocuous, pretty tame, and there was

2944
03:06:47,840 --> 03:06:50,800
Speaker 1: no luring. But after he went back to Camden to

2945
03:06:50,840 --> 03:06:53,240
Speaker 1: give Chris the first installment of money and sat a

2946
03:06:53,280 --> 03:06:57,800
Speaker 1: little with Rachel Costa Mesa police, they believed that she

2947
03:06:57,959 --> 03:07:01,720
Speaker 1: looked at his text messages all that he put himself

2948
03:07:01,720 --> 03:07:03,720
Speaker 1: as the last person with Sam, and one of those

2949
03:07:03,720 --> 03:07:08,320
Speaker 1: text messages to Julie, and then Julie became the decoy,

2950
03:07:08,400 --> 03:07:10,120
Speaker 1: if you will. She was going to be the second

2951
03:07:10,120 --> 03:07:13,120
Speaker 1: one that they had to take care of. Right, So

2952
03:07:13,200 --> 03:07:16,080
Speaker 1: that he goes back to Liberty Theater check see what's

2953
03:07:16,120 --> 03:07:19,400
Speaker 1: going on, and that's when he sends the first loring

2954
03:07:19,400 --> 03:07:22,720
Speaker 1: message because Sam's body is there, so again it's that

2955
03:07:22,800 --> 03:07:26,600
Speaker 1: electronic alibi, so it must be Sam sending the message.

2956
03:07:27,080 --> 03:07:29,760
Speaker 1: And we presented right, and we presented at the trial

2957
03:07:29,879 --> 03:07:32,560
Speaker 1: argument that if you look reasonably and everything we know

2958
03:07:32,600 --> 03:07:36,120
Speaker 1: about Rachel, that the timing was such that it would

2959
03:07:36,120 --> 03:07:40,600
Speaker 1: make sense that the sharper of the two saw those

2960
03:07:40,640 --> 03:07:45,240
Speaker 1: text messages and put a plan into action. And then

2961
03:07:45,280 --> 03:07:47,840
Speaker 1: you come back later in the evening at a time

2962
03:07:47,840 --> 03:07:52,000
Speaker 1: where Matt Murphy says they're absolutely together, that being Daniel

2963
03:07:52,000 --> 03:07:57,560
Speaker 1: and Rachel. They're in the apartment and Daniel, under that theory,

2964
03:07:57,920 --> 03:08:00,720
Speaker 1: sends a message to Julie Kibawishi at the eleven or

2965
03:08:00,760 --> 03:08:07,040
Speaker 1: eight hour eleven ten, Rachel sends the message to Julie

2966
03:08:07,320 --> 03:08:10,600
Speaker 1: on on the Facebook on the Facebook page. So what

2967
03:08:10,720 --> 03:08:14,039
Speaker 1: an incredible coincidence, right, that has to be a one

2968
03:08:14,080 --> 03:08:16,480
Speaker 1: in a million of all the times to think, you

2969
03:08:16,520 --> 03:08:18,760
Speaker 1: know what, I'd like to send a responsive message back

2970
03:08:18,800 --> 03:08:22,920
Speaker 1: to Julie. It's the time two minutes after a message

2971
03:08:22,959 --> 03:08:26,320
Speaker 1: was sent that you know, and Julie had originally sent

2972
03:08:26,400 --> 03:08:30,120
Speaker 1: the first Facebook message to Rachel earlier that day. And

2973
03:08:30,200 --> 03:08:33,280
Speaker 1: like you said at eleven ten, I think I'm gonna

2974
03:08:33,600 --> 03:08:38,440
Speaker 1: send Julie becca response now, and within forty minutes she's

2975
03:08:38,440 --> 03:08:41,440
Speaker 1: going to be murdered. Well, and Matt Murphy's arguing that

2976
03:08:41,520 --> 03:08:43,640
Speaker 1: they have to be sitting together. Remember, his point is,

2977
03:08:43,640 --> 03:08:46,480
Speaker 1: I'm not giving up the phone. She's there, But they were.

2978
03:08:46,640 --> 03:08:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I told you about my interview with Daniel Hulkyard.

2979
03:08:49,200 --> 03:08:52,640
Speaker 1: He said that Rachel Buffett said Daniel was standing right

2980
03:08:52,640 --> 03:08:55,119
Speaker 1: behind her when she sent that Facebook message to Julie.

2981
03:08:55,320 --> 03:08:58,640
Speaker 1: So they were within each other's space. And even if

2982
03:08:58,640 --> 03:09:01,560
Speaker 1: you didn't have that piece of evidence with you, Mr

2983
03:09:01,640 --> 03:09:04,760
Speaker 1: Murphy's right, of course, what's what's the chances that they're

2984
03:09:04,800 --> 03:09:07,240
Speaker 1: not together at that moment. But if they're at that

2985
03:09:07,560 --> 03:09:13,720
Speaker 1: moment together, the chance that that Facebook message is unassociated

2986
03:09:13,760 --> 03:09:16,680
Speaker 1: with a plan to alibi herself at the very least

2987
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:21,440
Speaker 1: alibi herself, right, she's and it's not it maybe alibi

2988
03:09:21,520 --> 03:09:25,320
Speaker 1: is the wrong word what she's trying to set up. Well,

2989
03:09:25,360 --> 03:09:29,760
Speaker 1: it's it's two things. It's an alibi and it's and

2990
03:09:29,840 --> 03:09:33,720
Speaker 1: it undermines the possibility that she would hurt this person, right,

2991
03:09:34,280 --> 03:09:36,520
Speaker 1: because because I'm just going to hang out with you

2992
03:09:36,600 --> 03:09:39,360
Speaker 1: the pool and catch some sunshine. And it was this

2993
03:09:39,480 --> 03:09:44,560
Speaker 1: really friendly, warm message that said, can't wait to see

2994
03:09:44,600 --> 03:09:46,959
Speaker 1: you after the wedding. We'll get together this summer and

2995
03:09:47,000 --> 03:09:50,480
Speaker 1: hang out by the pool. Right, So it's a message

2996
03:09:50,480 --> 03:09:53,480
Speaker 1: of we're friends, don't ever think that I would do

2997
03:09:53,600 --> 03:09:56,400
Speaker 1: something too. And isn't that what Mr Murphy said in

2998
03:09:56,720 --> 03:09:59,600
Speaker 1: his closing argument at the penalty phase. That's right. He

2999
03:10:00,080 --> 03:10:03,680
Speaker 1: argued that one of the reasons why we were wrong

3000
03:10:04,959 --> 03:10:09,040
Speaker 1: was that there was this text message which was very

3001
03:10:09,080 --> 03:10:13,400
Speaker 1: friendly and how his face right. What Mr Murphy argues

3002
03:10:13,520 --> 03:10:17,520
Speaker 1: is the fact that they have that Facebook message is

3003
03:10:17,520 --> 03:10:21,320
Speaker 1: actually evidence of why she wouldn't be involved. That's absurd

3004
03:10:21,400 --> 03:10:23,720
Speaker 1: when you just heard the closing argument. That is a

3005
03:10:23,760 --> 03:10:27,320
Speaker 1: compelling piece of evidence of her involvement in the murder.

3006
03:10:27,480 --> 03:10:30,800
Speaker 1: But I don't think he was concerned about that fact

3007
03:10:30,920 --> 03:10:33,840
Speaker 1: in anything he said in this trial. Again, I feel

3008
03:10:33,840 --> 03:10:37,840
Speaker 1: like in this trial he mapped out a story, if

3009
03:10:37,879 --> 03:10:43,320
Speaker 1: you will, based on circumstantial evidence that revealed her role

3010
03:10:43,560 --> 03:10:46,920
Speaker 1: in the murders. It did, but it's just what's in

3011
03:10:47,000 --> 03:10:51,879
Speaker 1: his head. He's laid out ample evidence about her involvement

3012
03:10:51,879 --> 03:10:54,039
Speaker 1: in the murders, but in his mind, he's got other

3013
03:10:54,080 --> 03:10:57,160
Speaker 1: things that he's looking at. He's It's not the way

3014
03:10:57,240 --> 03:10:59,720
Speaker 1: justice is supposed to be. So you're not supposed to

3015
03:10:59,760 --> 03:11:02,000
Speaker 1: be thinking about, hey, what are my arguments In the

3016
03:11:02,040 --> 03:11:06,199
Speaker 1: other case, they should just naturally be consistent. You should

3017
03:11:06,280 --> 03:11:08,000
Speaker 1: be going back to your transcripts to figure it out.

3018
03:11:08,040 --> 03:11:11,600
Speaker 1: You've already analyzed it. Let's go back to court. Dan

3019
03:11:11,680 --> 03:11:13,680
Speaker 1: really wants to keep her in the dark still, so

3020
03:11:13,720 --> 03:11:17,039
Speaker 1: he returns with Sam's keys, Sam's car, Sam's wallet, and

3021
03:11:17,160 --> 03:11:20,360
Speaker 1: Sam's cell phone. All right, he puts Sam's computer on

3022
03:11:20,360 --> 03:11:22,959
Speaker 1: a shelf in plain view in a common area, but

3023
03:11:23,240 --> 03:11:29,480
Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett doesn't notice. In a reasonable versus unreasonable analysis,

3024
03:11:30,120 --> 03:11:35,359
Speaker 1: we're starting to have some problems. Although Woznak exchanges multiple

3025
03:11:35,360 --> 03:11:38,600
Speaker 1: text messages with Julie Kiebowishi on a phone that looks, operates,

3026
03:11:38,640 --> 03:11:42,200
Speaker 1: and sounds completely different than his phone, Rachel Buffett never

3027
03:11:42,280 --> 03:11:47,800
Speaker 1: notices that either she watches is Chris Williams hands Wozniak

3028
03:11:47,840 --> 03:11:50,720
Speaker 1: a twenty dollar bill, but totally forgets and thinks Dan

3029
03:11:50,920 --> 03:11:55,840
Speaker 1: dropped the twenty dollar bill instead. Wosnia wants to create

3030
03:11:55,840 --> 03:11:58,039
Speaker 1: a false pattern of evidence and returns to the area

3031
03:11:58,040 --> 03:12:01,000
Speaker 1: of Sam's murder. He sends the first text message to

3032
03:12:01,080 --> 03:12:04,840
Speaker 1: Julie from the base coincidentally without any prompting from Wozniak.

3033
03:12:05,160 --> 03:12:08,440
Speaker 1: Exactly one minute later, Rachel Buffett again logs onto wasnaxt

3034
03:12:08,440 --> 03:12:13,560
Speaker 1: Facebook page. She has no clue he's up to something,

3035
03:12:17,200 --> 03:12:20,800
Speaker 1: completely ignorant of what's going on. Rachel Buffett is extremely

3036
03:12:20,879 --> 03:12:24,840
Speaker 1: upset about something totally unrelated and cries throughout the entire play. Okay,

3037
03:12:25,480 --> 03:12:29,240
Speaker 1: they returned to the Camden apartments. Wosnac really wants to

3038
03:12:29,280 --> 03:12:32,160
Speaker 1: make sure she knows nothing, so he decides to hurry

3039
03:12:32,200 --> 03:12:34,480
Speaker 1: Julie along so she arrives at a time when he

3040
03:12:34,520 --> 03:12:39,200
Speaker 1: absolutely knows Rachel is going to be awake. He decides

3041
03:12:39,240 --> 03:12:41,920
Speaker 1: to murder her in Sam's apartment instead of Sam's car

3042
03:12:42,320 --> 03:12:47,119
Speaker 1: or somewhere else. While they're in the apartment together, Waznac

3043
03:12:47,200 --> 03:12:50,960
Speaker 1: exchanges twelve additional text messages with Julie and Rachel again

3044
03:12:51,320 --> 03:12:58,320
Speaker 1: does not see or hear anything reasonable versus unreasonable. How's

3045
03:12:58,360 --> 03:13:03,120
Speaker 1: this sounding so far? He sneaks out of the apartment

3046
03:13:03,200 --> 03:13:10,920
Speaker 1: like a ninja. She doesn't notice a thing shoots Julie

3047
03:13:10,920 --> 03:13:17,360
Speaker 1: in the head with an unsuppressed semi automatic handgun roughly

3048
03:13:17,440 --> 03:13:21,680
Speaker 1: forty ft away from her ear drums. She doesn't hear

3049
03:13:21,720 --> 03:13:28,720
Speaker 1: the thing or she thinks it's hammering, and doesn't figure

3050
03:13:28,720 --> 03:13:33,360
Speaker 1: out later that that was actually Julie being murdered. At

3051
03:13:33,400 --> 03:13:35,800
Speaker 1: the time that Dan Wosnak is out of their apartment

3052
03:13:39,560 --> 03:13:47,240
Speaker 1: reasonable versus unreasonable. He's concerned about how a lout of

3053
03:13:47,280 --> 03:13:50,080
Speaker 1: gunshot is. He knows Rachel is awake, but again no

3054
03:13:50,240 --> 03:13:54,200
Speaker 1: efforts to suppress them at all. There's a special vortex

3055
03:13:54,240 --> 03:13:56,440
Speaker 1: at the Camden departments where you can hear barbecue going

3056
03:13:56,480 --> 03:14:02,720
Speaker 1: on to floor below, but not gunshots. Super agitated after

3057
03:14:02,760 --> 03:14:05,760
Speaker 1: one murder, the most upset Chris Williams has ever seen

3058
03:14:05,800 --> 03:14:08,040
Speaker 1: another human being. He comes back to his bride to

3059
03:14:08,120 --> 03:14:11,880
Speaker 1: be and is totally normal, and again she notices nothing

3060
03:14:11,879 --> 03:14:19,520
Speaker 1: about his demeanor despite sleeping on a twin mattress. Wisnia.

3061
03:14:19,640 --> 03:14:22,560
Speaker 1: Then sneaks out again two to four hours later, stages

3062
03:14:22,560 --> 03:14:25,360
Speaker 1: the crime scene, and Rachel Buffett doesn't notice him leaving

3063
03:14:25,480 --> 03:14:30,280
Speaker 1: or being gone on that bed. That guy on that bed,

3064
03:14:31,640 --> 03:14:39,080
Speaker 1: no alcohol, no drugs. She doesn't notice Dan cuts off

3065
03:14:39,080 --> 03:14:41,440
Speaker 1: a human head. He's super worried about Rachel finding out,

3066
03:14:41,560 --> 03:14:44,480
Speaker 1: comes back with bloody shoes and takes them off in

3067
03:14:44,640 --> 03:14:52,560
Speaker 1: plain sight, and she doesn't notice a thing reasonable versus unreasonable.

3068
03:14:55,480 --> 03:14:58,560
Speaker 1: Just like the computer keys, cell phone, she doesn't notice

3069
03:14:58,600 --> 03:15:02,279
Speaker 1: the shoes. Okay, Everyone in the camp to Martinique Compartments

3070
03:15:02,360 --> 03:15:04,959
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out what happened on Friday and Saturday,

3071
03:15:05,120 --> 03:15:08,039
Speaker 1: but those days are not remarkable at all for Rachel Buffett.

3072
03:15:10,360 --> 03:15:13,360
Speaker 1: Totally ignorant, She sees police walk into her brother's apartment.

3073
03:15:13,720 --> 03:15:16,039
Speaker 1: She here's Daniel was next, say how did you guys

3074
03:15:16,080 --> 03:15:18,320
Speaker 1: find me here? But doesn't think that's a little bit

3075
03:15:18,320 --> 03:15:24,040
Speaker 1: of Here's Daniel was next say can I speak to

3076
03:15:24,080 --> 03:15:26,280
Speaker 1: you guys privately outside, but doesn't occur to her that

3077
03:15:26,320 --> 03:15:30,320
Speaker 1: he may be involved. She says nothing about the third guy,

3078
03:15:30,400 --> 03:15:33,480
Speaker 1: but Sergeant Everett makes a big mistake, and actually that's

3079
03:15:33,520 --> 03:15:36,680
Speaker 1: not even the argument for the defense. She thinks the

3080
03:15:36,720 --> 03:15:41,039
Speaker 1: third guy is Chris Williams. She thinks the third guy

3081
03:15:41,280 --> 03:15:44,520
Speaker 1: is Chris Williams, and she tells police he left with

3082
03:15:44,600 --> 03:15:53,120
Speaker 1: Sam and Dan. It doesn't even make sense. She lies

3083
03:15:56,560 --> 03:15:59,279
Speaker 1: maybe two dozen when he had him all up. Okay,

3084
03:15:59,360 --> 03:16:04,879
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to convict on two just two, the

3085
03:16:04,959 --> 03:16:10,000
Speaker 1: third guy, okay, and hiding the existence of Chris Williams.

3086
03:16:10,320 --> 03:16:12,039
Speaker 1: And if you feel more comfortable, you can do her

3087
03:16:12,040 --> 03:16:15,640
Speaker 1: for the You can convict her of the false alibi

3088
03:16:15,720 --> 03:16:19,640
Speaker 1: thing she violated the law, hold her accountable for it,

3089
03:16:19,959 --> 03:16:22,920
Speaker 1: and then trust the judge to do the right thing.

3090
03:16:22,959 --> 03:16:27,920
Speaker 1: And sensing it matters and your your time as valuable

3091
03:16:27,959 --> 03:16:31,240
Speaker 1: as it is. Thank you, Thank you for coming in

3092
03:16:31,240 --> 03:16:35,760
Speaker 1: and doing us. I know it's complicated, the facts are confusing.

3093
03:16:36,120 --> 03:16:38,400
Speaker 1: You've got a whole lot of information, and as you

3094
03:16:38,440 --> 03:16:43,520
Speaker 1: deliberate folks, take your time, take your time, talk about

3095
03:16:43,520 --> 03:16:48,119
Speaker 1: her all the time you need, but take care of business.

3096
03:16:49,320 --> 03:16:52,200
Speaker 1: Hold her accountable for what she did. Thank you very much.

3097
03:16:52,720 --> 03:16:56,040
Speaker 1: If I'm sitting in that jury box and I just

3098
03:16:56,240 --> 03:17:01,000
Speaker 1: listened to a prosecutor who mapped out a litany of

3099
03:17:01,080 --> 03:17:05,680
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence that supports Rachel Buffett had knowledge of the

3100
03:17:05,760 --> 03:17:13,920
Speaker 1: murders and participated as an accomplice to the murders, I

3101
03:17:13,959 --> 03:17:17,680
Speaker 1: think that that prosecutor is trying to tell me that

3102
03:17:19,840 --> 03:17:23,840
Speaker 1: she could have been tried for murder because he said

3103
03:17:23,959 --> 03:17:27,560
Speaker 1: to all of this before. Dan could have misled her.

3104
03:17:27,640 --> 03:17:30,680
Speaker 1: He's capable of making her believe things that are other

3105
03:17:30,720 --> 03:17:33,280
Speaker 1: than the truth. And here he says, there's no way

3106
03:17:33,320 --> 03:17:35,720
Speaker 1: that could happen. The evidence is so overwhelming no matter

3107
03:17:35,800 --> 03:17:38,680
Speaker 1: what he would do. But that why didn't he just

3108
03:17:38,720 --> 03:17:41,160
Speaker 1: say that in our case? Why didn't you just say

3109
03:17:41,200 --> 03:17:43,280
Speaker 1: these things in our case? And I think I know

3110
03:17:43,360 --> 03:17:47,480
Speaker 1: the answer, and people should know the answer. What's the answer.

3111
03:17:48,400 --> 03:17:54,720
Speaker 1: Winning winning the death penalty was not as clear a

3112
03:17:54,800 --> 03:17:58,200
Speaker 1: path if this was presented in our case. Now you

3113
03:17:58,280 --> 03:18:03,760
Speaker 1: have somebody who's doing the text messaging, who's accessing the

3114
03:18:03,800 --> 03:18:07,080
Speaker 1: computer searches. He said, in our case that it's not

3115
03:18:07,240 --> 03:18:10,280
Speaker 1: Rachel's computer. She didn't do the searches. Now, he says,

3116
03:18:10,480 --> 03:18:13,760
Speaker 1: but come on, she certainly read the searches. She knew

3117
03:18:13,760 --> 03:18:17,400
Speaker 1: about it. So all these things they have slightly different takes,

3118
03:18:17,400 --> 03:18:20,520
Speaker 1: sometimes dramatic. So for example, the crying in our case,

3119
03:18:21,240 --> 03:18:24,400
Speaker 1: the crime case, he said, the crying meaning the crying

3120
03:18:24,600 --> 03:18:27,440
Speaker 1: during the nine performance that Friday night between Sam and

3121
03:18:27,520 --> 03:18:30,840
Speaker 1: Julie's murders. Right, he said, Look, Mr Sanders wants there

3122
03:18:30,879 --> 03:18:34,119
Speaker 1: to be an inference drawn about her knowledge of the murders.

3123
03:18:34,600 --> 03:18:37,160
Speaker 1: He says, that's not fair. That's not fair to do that,

3124
03:18:37,280 --> 03:18:39,119
Speaker 1: to ask that inference to be made. She's a twenty

3125
03:18:39,160 --> 03:18:41,800
Speaker 1: three year old getting married to Daniel wasnia. She could

3126
03:18:41,800 --> 03:18:44,000
Speaker 1: be crying about a lot of things. Here. He puts

3127
03:18:44,040 --> 03:18:47,800
Speaker 1: it on the list of powerful evidence, so you know,

3128
03:18:48,240 --> 03:18:51,280
Speaker 1: and he even says that the what was it, the

3129
03:18:51,320 --> 03:18:56,240
Speaker 1: electronic alibi trail? I think he called it when Dan

3130
03:18:56,560 --> 03:18:58,960
Speaker 1: was murdering Sam in the attic of the Liberty Theater.

3131
03:18:59,320 --> 03:19:04,240
Speaker 1: She's existing his Facebook page as Dan and it just

3132
03:19:04,280 --> 03:19:08,720
Speaker 1: seems like there's a coordination there. There's that's an interesting moment,

3133
03:19:09,240 --> 03:19:13,280
Speaker 1: that part of it, and looking in and then he said,

3134
03:19:13,520 --> 03:19:16,080
Speaker 1: I'm not saying she's part of the that she's a

3135
03:19:16,160 --> 03:19:20,199
Speaker 1: partner in the murders subjective. But now that's a problem

3136
03:19:20,240 --> 03:19:22,840
Speaker 1: one And as I heard that today, it probably struck

3137
03:19:22,879 --> 03:19:25,039
Speaker 1: me for the first time most powerfully. He tries to

3138
03:19:25,080 --> 03:19:27,120
Speaker 1: come back from that very quickly because one of the

3139
03:19:27,160 --> 03:19:30,680
Speaker 1: problems with that piece of evidence. Again, he's he's got

3140
03:19:30,720 --> 03:19:32,840
Speaker 1: our case in mind too, as he's doing all of this.

3141
03:19:33,240 --> 03:19:36,080
Speaker 1: But right there at that moment, that's not accessory after

3142
03:19:36,120 --> 03:19:42,360
Speaker 1: the fact, that is, you are participating in the murders.

3143
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Speaker 1: But it's up to the jurors to decide. And I

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Speaker 1: really want to thank you once again for your time here.

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Speaker 1: And now we wait and see what the verdict comes

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Speaker 1: out to be. Thanks for being here, Thanks for having me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Next week on Sleuth, we will learn the verdict. As

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Speaker 1: Rachel Buffett's trial comes to a close, both prosecutor Matt

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Speaker 1: Murphy and defense counsel David Medina delivered powerful arguments to

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Speaker 1: the jury of twelve. Both attorneys are hoping to sway

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Speaker 1: the members one way or the other for a verdict.

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Speaker 1: Each lawyer hopes lands in their favor. How do you

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Speaker 1: think the jury will decide what do you feel the

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Speaker 1: verdict will be. Stay tuned so you don't miss a

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Speaker 1: minute of our exclusive trout coverage heard only here on Sleuth.

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Speaker 1: Sleuth would like to thank our new sponsors, Zola Wedding

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Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth, share it with

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Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to leave a rating or review.

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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts so that you never miss an episode.