1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress. 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Today's guest is a writer, a designer, and an influence 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,799 Speaker 1: whose specialty is defining the line between happiness and ambition 4 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: and making the best of both. Jamie varn is a 5 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: captain of her own branding and design company and a 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: prolific writer whose work has been featured on The Huffington's Post, Teen, Vogue, 7 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: Thought Catalog, and many many more places. Today, we're going 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: to talk to Jamie about acceptance and self love, the 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: power of writing, being an entrepreneur, and her upcoming book, 10 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Radically Content, Being Satisfied in an endlessly dissatisfied world. Jamie 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: has been sharing her life and experience through blogs, articles, 12 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: and social media for over a decade, and I'm so 13 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: excited to sit down with her today and talk to 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: her about her journey. She inspires me endlessly to look 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: inside and really figure out how it is I'm feeling 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: and what it is I need to do with my feelings, 17 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: and I think she'll do the same for all of you. 18 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: So let's get started. Jamie, I'm so excited that you 19 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: have joined us on the show today. Thank you so 20 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: much for taking the time of course, I'm honored that 21 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: you'd even asked me. Oh my gosh, I'm such a 22 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: fan of your work and your writing, your perspective, the 23 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: way that you managed to be so vulnerable and invite 24 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: people in. But you also clearly know how to set 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: boundaries for yourself, and that is not an easy tight 26 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: up block. That's taken a while, so appreciate that acknowledgement. 27 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: It was used to be here's everything that I feel 28 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: all the time, and I'm overwhelmed with feeling drained by that. 29 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: And now it's I know the things that I want 30 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: to share, that I want to be, the conversations that 31 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: I want to be a part of, and the rest 32 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: I have to leave to someone else to talk about, 33 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And it strikes me as one example 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: of the both and how you have to figure out, 35 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 1: you know, to be who you are and you know 36 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: whatever whatever the finishing of that sentence might be for you. 37 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: And and something that I love so much about your 38 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: work is that you talk about being both satisfied and 39 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: content and ambitious and driven, and those are things that 40 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: that can feel in friction to people. I mean, it's 41 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: it's the reason this podcast began, you know, based on 42 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: the idea that you can be a perfect masterpiece and 43 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: a work in progress at the same time. And so 44 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: I can't wait to dive into how you have that 45 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: aha moment for yourself. But before we go into where 46 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: we are today, I really like, I like to go 47 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: back to the beginning because I and I weirdly feel 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: like I know some of the stuff about you because 49 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: I've read so many of the things I um. But 50 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: I I always like to ask the woman that you 51 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: are in the world today, do you see traces of 52 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: her in Jamie as a little girl? I think I 53 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: think that I do. Yeah, I mean, it took me 54 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: a while to kind of step into who I am now, 55 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: and I because of that, I really I am so 56 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: actually appreciative of where I am now. I don't feel 57 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: that I deny that I have my power now and 58 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: then I've really stepped into it. And as a little girl, 59 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: I mean so many opinions, I was the one advocating 60 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: for everything. I'd be like, don't say that, don't do that, 61 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, like, just be a little bit more thoughtful, 62 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: be a little bit like I tell myself that I 63 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: was like a little feminist at ten years old because 64 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: I don't know where this came from. That I was 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: just like I knew certain things just didn't vibe with me, 66 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: and I had this strong opinion that I was like, 67 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: where does who is this person? And even that young, 68 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: I felt that, And I think then it became like 69 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: at ten, I started getting bullied and I started having 70 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: those experiences in school, which I think just created this 71 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: very sensitive part of me that really wanted to understand 72 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: like why do we do this? Like why are we 73 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,280 Speaker 1: like this to each other? Like why why are we 74 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: creating these hierarchies that some are better, some are worse, 75 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: some are this. And I think that began a very 76 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: intense journey because you know, like when the world doesn't 77 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: really affirm you, you have to learn how to affirm yourself. 78 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: And when the world, like you know, rejects you in 79 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: certain ways, you have to learn how to choose yourself. 80 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: And I used to think this was a journey for 81 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: me to like love myself, but then it became so 82 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: much more of just like I need to go beyond that. 83 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: I need to choose me, validate me, not reject myself. 84 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 1: Like all of this feels so vital because if I 85 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: wait for the world to tell me who to be 86 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: and give me permission to love myself like I will 87 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: literally wait forever. And the great irony is that no 88 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: matter what version of you you are you choose, the 89 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: world tells you that's the wrong one exactly, even if 90 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: you fit in there like okay, stay that way forever 91 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: and keep that up. And it's like nobody wins, no, 92 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: because you you you can't possibly do anything forever, you know, 93 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: whether you have a bad day or a good day 94 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: or a new success. It's so interesting that we all 95 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: experience versions of this. When women can sit and have 96 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: this conversation, our insides go, oh gosh, you two, it's 97 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: such a relief. And and yet we're in these, as 98 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: you said, hierarchical systems. People treat each other with such cruelty, 99 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: and it it kind of hit me looking, you know, 100 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: thirty feet Why are we as humans like this? Why 101 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: are we so desperate for someone else to be the 102 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: bad guys so that no one looks at us? What 103 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: if we just looked at each other, What if we 104 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: just helped each other, What if we just said, hey, 105 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: we've got enough to go around, what do you need? 106 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: But nobody teaches us that and and for you to 107 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: be talking about how you you both chose yourself and 108 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: you chose to unlearn the detriment so that you could 109 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: teach yourself and other people something better. That that's a 110 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: big it's a big choice, and I imagine it feels 111 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: like a big calling. At first, I will say it 112 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: felt kind of like a burden because I was like, 113 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: why do I have to be the sensitive one? You know, 114 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: like why do I have to work through all this? 115 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: And I felt really upset about that for a long time, like, um, 116 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: like I should be different, you know, like why can't 117 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: I be normal? Quote unquote you know, there was a 118 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: part of me that really wanted to be accepted as 119 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: the norm or whatever that would represent the conventions, the conformities. 120 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: And then really stepping into what a gift it is 121 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: and seeing that, oh, I actually have a perspective that 122 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: people haven't heard before, Like this just is what I 123 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: think about. It's not you know, I don't think it's 124 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: different anymore. And then I started to really share, and 125 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: what I noticed was the moment that I shared something 126 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: really vulnerable that I felt like no one else has 127 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: ever felt this before. You know that you can think 128 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: that when you're in the hard part of it. And 129 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: I got all these I would just get all these 130 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: people being like me too. I didn't know anybody else 131 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: felt felt that way. And every time I did that, 132 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: it just like emboldened me and emboldened me because I 133 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 1: was thinking, wait a second, now, I'm just like nothing 134 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: is just me, Like it's all we're all feeling these things, 135 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: and if we brought them to the surface more, you know, 136 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 1: I see the cruelty that people inflict on others in 137 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: all the small and big ways that they do in 138 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:39,839 Speaker 1: this world, and I look at that and I'm like, 139 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: all I see now is like that's pain. That's like 140 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: unexpressed pain, and it's complex, and we do have this 141 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: system that says this is a lot of what my 142 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: book is about is like we have this system that's 143 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: saying you're as good as you're better than someone else, 144 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: so keep making yourself better. And it's so on autopilot 145 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: that we don't really look at it or interrogate it 146 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: until we take a step back and go, oh, I'm 147 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,680 Speaker 1: I'm doing it too. Like I think that was a 148 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: really powerful part of this was going I'm doing it 149 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: as well, like I might not be on the cruelty scale, 150 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: you know, But I was doing it in my head. 151 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: I was making myself better than other people and being 152 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: honest about that. I mean, talking what you talked about 153 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: with Like when women share this. When I started sharing 154 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: that with my friends, they were like me too, Like 155 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: I do that too, and we all had it was 156 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: like beautiful to be able to just be honest because 157 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: we just I think we try to conceal a lot 158 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: of our real feelings, you know, especially women were always 159 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: like are we bad? Should we be doing this? Is 160 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: this okay? And it's like we're always looking for permission, 161 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: and I'm just I think I've got to the place 162 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: where I was just like I just can't wait any longer. 163 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: I don't want to wait for permission. I'm my permission, 164 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: I guess, like I was like, I'm the one that's 165 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: coming to save me. I love that, And I think 166 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: it goes back to that truth that's at the heart 167 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: of it for so many of us, which is so 168 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: much of this is societal conditioning, So much of this 169 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: is environmental and it happens everywhere. I mean, you said it, 170 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: you started getting bullied at ten. How many other girls 171 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: and boys, you know, how many other people out there 172 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: have the exact same experience. Something comes online, some desire 173 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: to be better than in order to feel safe. You know, 174 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: I want to be chosen, I want to get straight 175 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: as I want to be the valedictorian. I want that 176 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: boy to like me. Whatever it is, and it seeps 177 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: in from everywhere and it and it does do such harm. 178 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: You know, I imagine to you as a little girl. 179 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just coming from kids at school. You've 180 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: talked about how as a child you heard the men 181 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: in your family talk about women. That is also learned behavior, 182 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: that's cultured from somewhere. How do you think that impacted 183 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: the little girl who liked to say, hey, that's not right. 184 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: What what was that experience like for you? Well, it 185 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 1: was always you're too sensitive. You're just being too sensitive. 186 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, I'm just saying what is right here? 187 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: You know, like I And then I started to go, 188 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: maybe I am too sensitive. Okay, I'm too much. I 189 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: think too much, I am overthink and it just became 190 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: essentially boiled down all of that. It becomes self doubt, 191 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: and it becomes a constant questioning and monitoring of every 192 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: thought and every instinct and essentially what that then does 193 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 1: is it erodes at your own self trust and it 194 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: erodes at like That's what happened to me was I 195 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: found I realized I was like I don't really trust myself. 196 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: I look externally for someone to tell me, am I 197 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,439 Speaker 1: doing good? Am I good enough? And I think that 198 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: was probably a big turning point for me, where I 199 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: just said I was in that all my twenties into 200 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: my thirties, just like waiting for someone collecting compliments, collecting 201 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: praise as if like you know, I can make a 202 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: book and look at it and it's my evidence, and 203 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, I've proven my case. I am good enough now. 204 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: And it's like I realized probably around like thirty thirty 205 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: one and thirty six now I realized. I was like 206 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: it has never clicked in, like this is not going away, 207 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: and I was like, I gotta have a new way 208 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: of looking at this because we're going up. Part of 209 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: it was because of my weight. I felt rejected. So 210 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: at first it was like people are rejecting me, and 211 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: like you can kind of look at that as okay, 212 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: you can battle that, But then what you what's harder 213 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: to battle is when you internalize it, and you go, well, 214 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: now I'm rejecting me, and I believe you, like I 215 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: believe you that I deserved that. So it becomes a 216 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: part of like your own belief system. So you've now 217 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: taken that on as like, that's your value system, that's 218 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: your narrative, that's your story. And my work has been 219 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 1: in really rewriting my story because even through a new filter, 220 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: the past changes shape. You know, like when you and 221 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've experienced this where you look back on 222 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: something you're like, oh, wait, through a new lens, this 223 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: looks totally different. You talked about that something that made 224 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: me go you too, me too? Um, when you wrote 225 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: that beautiful piece that's it's years old now. I think 226 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: it came out in you know, the twenty Things I 227 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: Wish I had known as a teenage girl, and I 228 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: think it touched me so much because I've been asked 229 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: to reflect on what advice I'd give to my younger self, 230 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: especially because right out of college I played a high 231 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: school kids, so I kind of stayed in that world 232 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: of you know, emotional pain forever. And I was really 233 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: struck when you said that a person who you considered 234 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: a friend someone who called you their best friend could 235 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: be so cruel to you. I'm thinking about that now 236 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: because it's really it's reminding me of how I felt 237 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: when I read it, and it's reminding me of something now. 238 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: As you say that things change when you look at 239 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: them through new lenses, through the lens of my healthier 240 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: adult self, who recognizes hyper sensitivity as a superpower, not 241 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: as something that makes me wrong. I realized, oh, yeah, 242 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: I grew up in some of that, and and the 243 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: way that I felt like I was, for whatever reason, 244 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: always inadequate and and always a little on the outside 245 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: and whatever. I can look back now and go, oh, 246 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: I just had I made a bully my best friend. 247 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: I didn't understand how cruel it was when I experienced 248 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: my first big moment of you know, young success, and 249 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: my quote unquote best friend said, well, you're fifteen minutes 250 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: of fame start now, don't they? Oh yeah, just so 251 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: it was so like. Oh and my other best girlfriend 252 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: from high school when we got I think we were 253 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: like two years. Maybe it was three years into me 254 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: making my first show. I was home and she looked 255 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: at me and said, you know, it's just really hard 256 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: for me to watch you get everything I always wanted. 257 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: Oh my God. And it was one of the last 258 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: conversations we ever had. And and for so long as 259 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: a young woman, I couldn't figure out why no matter 260 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: what I did, no matter how I showed up, no 261 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: matter what I gave, no matter um if I got 262 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: invited to something, I'd always make sure I could bring 263 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: all my friends. I'd always you know, and it never mattered. 264 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: I always got bullied. And it took me a long 265 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: time to realize that I just had the wrong friends 266 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: and that it wasn't my fault for not doing enough. 267 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: It was the fact that I was expected to do 268 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: anything to earn love at all. And I wonder if 269 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: that created sort of a complex about conventional success, that 270 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: maybe it's not always certain, it's not always safe, because 271 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of women have that where 272 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: they're like, let me keep myself a little contained, a 273 00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: little smaller, so that nobody gets jealous or nobody is threatened. 274 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: And you know, unfortunately, I feel what you're bringing up. 275 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: It's like, probably one of all the most hurtful things 276 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: have been inflicted by other girls and women. And I'm 277 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: not don't say that as like, oh girl, I'm not 278 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: going to play into the narrative of like women are 279 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: caddy and all of this. It's more like we're in pain, 280 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 1: Like we're trying to figure out this world and and 281 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: we are told that things are kind of limitless, and 282 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: yet there's usually only one woman in the room, and 283 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: there's it's like what's the truth? Like are we supposed 284 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: to be in competition with each other? Are we supposed 285 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: to change our behavior? Are we valued as we are? 286 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: Where we all? I mean, I've never met a woman 287 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: who doesn't have almost crippling self doubt at certain points 288 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: of their life, who have this inadequacy that they believe 289 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: they're the only ones that they have, who are so 290 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,600 Speaker 1: hard on themselves. I mean to a point where I'm 291 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: littlest like how did we get this? Like our minds 292 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: are like I have because you know, I'm on Instagram 293 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,239 Speaker 1: and I love being in my messages and I just 294 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: get so many messages from women who are like how 295 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,959 Speaker 1: did how how are you? How do you like yourself? 296 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: Like that's really the that's really the message is like 297 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: how did you learn to like yourself and not be 298 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,479 Speaker 1: so hard on yourself all the time? And I was 299 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: like this is the core of it, because when we're 300 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: hard on ourselves, we feel like someone else's success takes 301 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 1: away from what's possible for us. We feel like we're 302 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: in this really tight grip of what we are expected 303 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: to be and we don't want to see another woman 304 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: liberated and free of that, or if we do, we 305 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: almost kind of like turn them into a deity too much. 306 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: And it's like we just need to we need to 307 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: be in community, not like you know, okay, you're better, 308 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: I'm better, and then you're doing this and I'm doing 309 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,400 Speaker 1: this and that's taking away, and it's like we need 310 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: to I'm just like, can we just all sit in 311 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 1: a circle and share. Doesn't my love so earnest? Like 312 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: can we just talk it out? Like maybe we should 313 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: just talk about our feelings more, because I think, you know, 314 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: the image that really comes to mind, especially when you're 315 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: highlighting the reality that I think so many women want 316 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: women to do well and feel like we're all kept 317 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: on the outside. And I think when you are trying 318 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: to create a you know, progressive feminist future in a 319 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: generationally patriarchal society, it's like there's too much air in 320 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: the balloon. So of course things start coming outsideways. And 321 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm so relieved that we're finally in a moment where 322 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: it feels like so many women are looking around and going, well, 323 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: this has clearly never worked for us, So why are 324 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: we doing it their way? Why don't we just try 325 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: to do it our own way? And they are meeting 326 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 1: each other and and talking to each other and um, 327 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: and being open about exactly these things, and it is 328 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: so healing. I think it's it's the way to undo 329 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: that as you set that self tup that just paralyzes people, 330 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: because we're all walking around being terrified that we're not 331 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: enough or that we're too much. And so I wonder, 332 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: you know, we're tracing this line of that experience for 333 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: you beginning at ten, um, listening to the judgment of 334 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: women even in your own household, realizing that you internalized that, 335 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: and that you were judging yourself and you were judging 336 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: other people, but of course only in your head to 337 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: be polite. Um. Yikes. The toxicity runs so deep for 338 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: all of us. I know that it's easier now for 339 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: us to be having this conversation. We're in a moment 340 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: where we are writing our own permission slips, so we're 341 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: doing it. But when you started your journey, when you started, 342 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, writing and blogging and really stepping into this space, 343 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: how did you do that? What? What was the thing 344 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: that made you go, I'm just gonna do it? Because 345 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: now everybody was talking about this when you when you started. No, 346 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I looked around and I was like, oh, 347 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: we're here. Okay, yeah, like I've been, and not not 348 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: in a like ego way, but just kind of like, 349 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 1: all right now people are starting to get to this 350 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: place because I used to be like I must be 351 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: like too deep or like too much all the too 352 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: much stuff. So what I'll say is actually the intent 353 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: chin behind it has really morphed as things do. You know, 354 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: as you as you do certain things, you find different 355 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: reasons to do it. And I think at first there 356 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: was there was almost like a hard edge about it. 357 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: I was like, I'm gonna be a rebel. Rebel, I'm 358 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: going to write about the real stuff, you know, like 359 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: I'm gonna write like straight into the heart of it. 360 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: And it was really coming from I had this huge 361 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: ambition and I was just like, I want to prove 362 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: that I'm good enough, and I need to hit these 363 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: milestones and I need to like, once I get there, 364 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: i'll be happy. And then once I and I kind 365 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: of look at it as like there's there's a before 366 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: and after in this, so that before it was like 367 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: very based in the hustle culture, like you know, oh, 368 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: it'll be worth it one day, and yeah, I keep grinding, 369 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: like when you know it, sleep right, like you'll sleep 370 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: when you're dead and all this, and you know all 371 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I mean I was kind 372 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: of good with some of that, but if I wasn't working. 373 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: My thing was like I wouldn't work all the time. 374 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: But if I wasn't working, the least I could do 375 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: is panic and have anxiety about working and my ambition 376 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: and all the productivity that I wasn't doing. So that 377 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: was like I won't be on my computer, but I 378 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: will stress and not enjoy any of my downtime. So 379 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: that was my offering to the productivity gods. And then 380 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: I was working for this website and all they wanted 381 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: from me was to go viral, you know, click bait. 382 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: They wanted views. This was back in thought catalog, and 383 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: this was like and this was this was the heart 384 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: was the heart of me being like I have to 385 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: be a writer or my life is like insignificant, Like 386 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: I have to do this. I have to make it. 387 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: I have to like get it, and you know, especially 388 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: because it was like I was almost turning thirty, so 389 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: I was like that's the cut off. If I don't 390 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: make it by thirty, I just apparently go with her 391 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: and die somewhere, you know, like after thirty in my mind, 392 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: you know. And I had this big viral moment. This 393 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: article was like it was one of those where you know, 394 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,959 Speaker 1: people from high school, we're like, WHOA saw this? And 395 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: like it's from you? You know. It was all the 396 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: all the things you dream about when you're you want 397 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: to be that writer in the proving phase. And I 398 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: had this moment and I recognize I had a really 399 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: amazing moment of clarity where I didn't enjoy it at all. 400 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: I was just stressed and anxious and terrified I'd never 401 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: write another viral article ever again, and that my value 402 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: was going to plummet, and I was just up and 403 00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: down with it. And it was I remember, though, was 404 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: weeks after that as like the most stressed and anxious 405 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: I've ever been. And I was like, hmm, it took 406 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: me a little while to like, except that something had happened, 407 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: something had broken that it was like, okay, so this 408 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: doesn't work, like because you can think that it will 409 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: fix everything, that it will make you feel worthy, it'll 410 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,160 Speaker 1: make you feel good enough until it happens and then 411 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: you go, I mean, I'm sure you have experience of 412 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: this so much because then you go, you're like, hm, hmmm, 413 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: that didn't do what I expected it to do. I 414 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: got I had this sort of image when you were 415 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: talking earlier about if I can just collect enough compliments, 416 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: the compliments will fill me up and then I'll believe 417 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: in myself. And no one tells you that holding compliments 418 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: it's like it's like sand falling through your fingers. You 419 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: can't hold it. And I think about this in the 420 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 1: same way. And the really interesting thing is, you know, 421 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: when you talk about your friends, you know, being like, 422 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: oh you did this, Oh I saw this. Everyone on 423 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: the outside goes, oh, well, when your name is all 424 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: over the internet, you must you've made you feel happy, 425 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: and you're sitting there going, uh no, I'm more terrified 426 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: than I've ever been, and nobody wants to hear about 427 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 1: it because everybody thinks everything is great and exactly and 428 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: it and what I realize is it's just another version 429 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: of taking people down. It's we do it to ourselves. 430 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: As you said, we don't want to get too big. 431 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: We dim our light because we're scared of making other 432 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: people mad, or of putting a target on our backs. 433 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: It's that thing that Margot Robbie talks about. Tall poppy 434 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: syndrome is how they talk about it in Australia that 435 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 1: as long as all the poppies are the same height, 436 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: it's great. But if there's a tall poppy, they'll come 437 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: cut it down. And we kind of tall poppy ourselves. 438 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: We cut ourselves down. We let other people do it. 439 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: And and you're right, the way we kind of deify 440 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: successful people, especially women, then it's like they're they're not 441 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,919 Speaker 1: allowed to have a bad day, They're not allowed to 442 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,959 Speaker 1: have fears. They're not allowed And and I think the 443 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: cultural shift that we're finally beginning to bring to the surface, 444 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, a longstanding reality of what mental health looks like, 445 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: what stress looks like. Um, you know all the data 446 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: that shows that actually, yes, is there an immense privilege 447 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: if you have more money accessible because you can pay 448 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: for your health care or or a home or whatever, 449 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: but that the actual psychology of happiness does not increase 450 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: once needs are met, no matter how much more money 451 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: you have, which I think is so interesting. It all 452 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: feels like it's coming together in this moment for us 453 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: to learn or level up or something. And I'm fascinated 454 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: by the time that you've been doing this. You refer 455 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: to your first viral article and know that moment. I 456 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: think about the website you created back in two thousand nine, 457 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: you know, and when you say it was Hustle Culture, 458 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: You're like, my website is Twitter should hire me? Like 459 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: here I am. I'm here to change it. I want 460 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: to go back even there. I know you see it 461 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 1: in that viral period when you when you look back 462 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: five years, what do you see when you look back, 463 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, over ten years to that two thousand 464 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: nine moments? What made you start the website? How how 465 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: did you get there? Yeah? So I think what's defined 466 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: me is like, even when I've been in the self doubt, 467 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: I always have this like, well, I'm gonna do it anyway, 468 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: Like screw it, I'll do it anyway. You know, I 469 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,800 Speaker 1: don't I'm not like the freeze type of person. Although 470 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: I didn't write, I didn't like write for a long time, 471 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: or I mean, I didn't write what I really wanted 472 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: to write for a long time. But I was still like, well, 473 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: I'll have to I have to do it, like I'm 474 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm in that mode. And so yeah, back in two 475 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: thousand nine, I just got out of college. I quit 476 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 1: a job after two weeks. I got this job at 477 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: a startup in um San Francisco, and I was like, 478 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: this is it? And then it wasn't it, you know, 479 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: And then I was like and I quit because I 480 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: was like, you know what this is. I'm not going 481 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: to start my life, you know, my career in this 482 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: way where I'm going to accept this kind of treatment. 483 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 1: Like it was before the word toxic really came into awareness. 484 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: It was toxic and I didn't have the words for it. Obviously. 485 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: I was just like, this isn't good. And everyone, you know, 486 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: I was like, how can you quit a job after 487 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: two weeks in a recession, you know, it was like 488 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: the two thousand and eight, two thousand nine recession. I 489 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, I just have to do it, 490 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, I've had an instinct and I wanted to 491 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: work at a startup. I thought I was going to 492 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: go into tech, which is really fun that I ever 493 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: thought that, But I wanted to be in tech. I 494 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: thought that was the cool thing. And I started this website. 495 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: It came to me out of nowhere because I was like, 496 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: I'm sending at resumes, I'm sending cover letters. How am 497 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: I ever going to stand out? And so I just thought, 498 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: I want to work at Twitter. I'm gonna make this website. 499 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: That's just go for it. Twitter should hire me dot 500 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: com And it came to me and I stayed up 501 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: till like six in the morning making it. And I 502 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: because and I didn't know how to build it as 503 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: a website. I just like kind of new photoshop, put 504 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: some stuff together and I just had this gumption, I think. 505 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: And so then I send it out on my Twitter 506 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: and I think I had six hundred followers, like nothing. 507 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't like A had. It's not like I had 508 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: this big audience. I go to sleep at six am, 509 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: I go to sleep, I wake up and like for 510 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: Twitter and for the Internet at that time two thousand nine, 511 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: it was megaviral. It was like it was like Fortune 512 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: magazine is like calling me on the phone. CNN wants 513 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: to put me on TV, and I'm like what it 514 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: was the weirdest thing ever, Oh my gosh. And I 515 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: was like, okay, so I guess I have something here. 516 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: It's weird because you know when like you have the 517 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,239 Speaker 1: self doubt, you have these things, but you also know 518 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: you have something you know, like, it's not it's hard 519 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 1: to it's hard to explain because it's a both and 520 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: like both things get to exist at the same time. 521 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: Like I knew I had talent, I knew I had something. 522 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: I knew that I wanted to do things publicly, and 523 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: I knew I didn't have a whole lot of self censorship, 524 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: but I also was paralyzed by self doubt, which didn't 525 00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: make sense. It was just like I'm like, I sim 526 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: a Gemini, Like that is the Gemini part of me. 527 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: It's just like you get to be both and somehow 528 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: live with that good luck and then I just so 529 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: I just put it out there and then rode the 530 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: wave and Twitter brought me to lunch. And I had 531 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: no skills, Sophia. I had no skills. What I had nothing? 532 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: They were like, do you code? Like are you an engineer? 533 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: I'm like no, like, do you have a pr position? 534 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: Like is there something I can do? They're like, we're 535 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: not even a thing yet, Like Twitter was hardly a 536 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: thing then, and so they didn't hire me and I 537 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: but then out of nowhere, someone goes, I really loved 538 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 1: your design for Twitter, should hire me? Can you design 539 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: me a website? And I and that was the time 540 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: of real like fake it till you make it, which 541 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: I don't like love that advice now, but in that time, 542 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: I was like, yes I can. I am a web designer, 543 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: and like I had that same company that I made 544 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine off of all this viral stuff 545 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: and I still have it to this day. That's shatterbox, right. Yeah. 546 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: So I love this because sometimes I really think that 547 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: when you bet on yourself, when you lean in, it's 548 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: almost like the universe goes, oh, you're ready. Now look 549 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: at that. You're ready. We'll start sending things your way. 550 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 1: You know, not to get to l a woo woo 551 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: law of attraction, but you know they call it law 552 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: because it's a thing. And and so I think about 553 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: that moment when you got that first call can you 554 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: design me a website? Do you see looking back that 555 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: branding and design was kind of the natural next step. 556 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: And and how did you then decide to you know, 557 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: found your own design and branding shop, because, as you said, 558 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: you've still got to go in. So how does the 559 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: timeline move forward from Twitter saying we don't have a 560 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: position for you, what are you talking about? To yeah, 561 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: now I have a company like a week wow, Okay. 562 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 1: The instinct, there's always an instinct within me that when 563 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: it sometimes it's stronger than other times, and sometimes it 564 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: comes really really intensely. And I think growing up the 565 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: way that I did, I also, you know, we didn't 566 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: have a ton of money, so I'm very scrappy. Like 567 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: I saw like dollars, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, 568 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: I'll take that, like I'll take money. And it felt like, oh, 569 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: I'll do this until the writing takes off. And then 570 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 1: a few months in I had a full client list. 571 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how it happened. Literally, there were so 572 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: many like serendipitous things that happened. Like a couple of 573 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: months in to me doing my web design business, shatter Box, 574 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: this guy gets in touch with me and he goes 575 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: starting a nonprofit and I need a logo it's like 576 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: something for Twitter. I don't even remember it, and I 577 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 1: need a website. And I tell him. I was like, okay, 578 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: it's dollars and he's like, no, it's not, it's five thousand. 579 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 1: Like you're worth that. Okay. He sends me a check 580 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: for five thousand dollars cashes, he falls off the face 581 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: of the planet. I've never seen him ever again. No, 582 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: I swear it was. It gives me chills still to 583 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: this day. He was like raizer prices I'm sending I'm 584 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: paying you in full. You deserve that. You're too talented. 585 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: And I never did the logo or website. I emailed 586 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: him so many times he ceased existing somewhere. He was 587 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: just like a little confidence Ferry love Angel, just h 588 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: with little checks on his back like wings. Yeah, He's 589 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: just like, let me come right in, let me give 590 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: you a little boost. And I I took that seriously. Well, yeah, 591 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: someone telling you what you're worth and and showing up 592 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: to make that clear to you. I know it's changed 593 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: my life when people have done that for me. I 594 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: know that I work so hard to do that for 595 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: other people, to say, no, you should absolutely be charging 596 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: X for this. You you absolutely deserve to do this, 597 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: and and I do think there is something about claiming 598 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 1: you're worth. It's a business version of of, you know, 599 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,479 Speaker 1: taking up space in the world. Do you feel like 600 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 1: running your own boutique agency gives you power to do that, 601 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: not just to focus on projects you believe in, but 602 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: also to really kind of stay claim in the creative world. Yeah. 603 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: I think it was really interesting the way. I mean, 604 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: the thing about design at that time especially was that 605 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,319 Speaker 1: it was very clearly valuable, like people knew that it 606 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: had value, whereas some things, you know, like art is 607 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 1: very subjective obviously, and so it's like who what has value? 608 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: We just decide these things. And so my way of 609 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 1: dealing with money has helped me now see the value 610 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: in like my ideas, my art, all these things, because 611 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: it was so like people they don't know how to 612 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 1: do design, so they need to hire someone to do it, 613 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, whereas some people are like, well I could write, 614 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: I could do I could you know, the it's this 615 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: weird amorphous thing and some of the other arts. And 616 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 1: I think that helped me recognize that, like I have value. Also, 617 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,840 Speaker 1: it was very male dominated then, and it was very 618 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: abnormal for anyone to work from their laptops, Like no 619 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: one did that, and I was like, I realized half. 620 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: Like when I was a few months in, I was like, 621 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: I can go. I can work from anywhere. So I 622 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: went to Italy for three months. I was like, let's 623 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: just go. I just took my laptop and went, you know, 624 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: because I no, seriously, I'm like twenty three years old, Jamie, 625 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: really you just And I asked my mom the other 626 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: day actually, I was like, how did you just be 627 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 1: cool with that? And she was like, I just wanted 628 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: you to go experience life. So I had no worries 629 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 1: and I love that. I know. She was a She's 630 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: a gem. So it was it really helped me see 631 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: all the different value that I bring and it you know, 632 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,760 Speaker 1: at the time, it felt like am I doing this, 633 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 1: you know to distract from the writing. And now I 634 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 1: feel like, oh my god, that was the best thing 635 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: I ever did because it gave me stability. It gave 636 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: me time to come into my writing and you know, 637 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 1: really build confidence with it because that's a hard thing. 638 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: Well that that's the thing I'm so curious about. So 639 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: you're painting this picture of what starts in two thousand nine. 640 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: You know, the website, and then the branding agency, and 641 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 1: then the clients, and you start understanding your worth. You know, 642 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: all of these things. I feel like on the inside 643 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm cheering and I feel like everyone at home it 644 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, do it. And then you know, you're 645 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: talking about these, um these big moments. What is the 646 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: through line in all those years? How does it begin 647 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: to shift from your creating all of these brands and 648 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: these websites, you're doing all of this design, to you 649 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,279 Speaker 1: are writing more and more, you are publishing more and more. 650 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: When did you decide you wanted to publish something? And 651 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: when did Yeah? When when did the shift begin? So 652 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: all throughout this I have an audience that's building. You know, 653 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: I was blogging. I blogged when I was in Italy. 654 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 1: I mean people still to this day reference that blog, 655 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: and it was kind of more funny, like day and 656 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,359 Speaker 1: the life stuff. And then all just all throughout I 657 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: was active on social media, um, just doing certain things, 658 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,480 Speaker 1: always sharing what was going on, sometimes more active than others. 659 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 1: And then when I took this job at Thought Catalog, 660 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: I had to write all the time, so I was 661 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 1: really sharpening a lot of the writing. Then in sixteen, 662 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: I'm thinking I'm gonna do a book. An agent got 663 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: in touch with me, a literary agent, and that whole 664 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 1: year I couldn't get a book out, Like it was 665 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: not the time. Every time I sat down at the computer, stress, anxiety, worry, 666 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: and I was so frustrated. I was just like, this 667 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 1: is my time, Like I thought that was my time. 668 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 1: You know, I just had this whole thing. My writing 669 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,839 Speaker 1: was out there. I was doing freelancing. That was when 670 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: I was writing for like teen Vogue and Complex and HuffPo, 671 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: and it felt like things were really swelling to the 672 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 1: point where I was supposed to do the next things. 673 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: But then what happened was I really I had that 674 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: moment of clarity where I was like, Jamie, you're not happy, 675 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: Like you can't keep doing this if you're not happy, 676 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: Like like if you get a book deal, it's not 677 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: going to solve this core thing. Because it felt like 678 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: I just have to get the book deal. I have 679 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: to get the book deal. Once I get the book deal, 680 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,960 Speaker 1: I'll be okay, I'll be happy. And it became such 681 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: a I mean, it was like a presence in every 682 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 1: room I was in that belief that just was like 683 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: haunting me and I had to have this moment. I mean, 684 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: it was also all the stuff with the election that 685 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: was going on. There was a huge awakening in terms 686 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: of all the things that opened up in twenty sixteen. 687 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: So it was, you know, a lot going on that 688 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: I was very much you know, knowledgeable about and keeping 689 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: up on, and also just this like personal storm that 690 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: was going on, and I had just an insight moment 691 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:08,439 Speaker 1: where I first of all, I got on for a year, 692 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: I was on anti anxiety medication because I was just 693 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: like I need something to just calm me down. I 694 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: was waking up in panic, you know, like I was, 695 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: this is not sustainable, and I said to myself, like 696 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: start of seen, I was like, You're going to quit 697 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: and get rid of everything that is not making you happy, 698 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:34,000 Speaker 1: and whatever stays will stay, and whatever goes, let it go. 699 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: Like it was it was a voice from somewhere beyond, 700 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: Like I don't know where it came from, but it 701 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: was just like the only thing that matters is feeling 702 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,879 Speaker 1: good in your life and being happy. And I realized 703 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: I was like I am so far from that, Like 704 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: I had never even once had that singular goal like 705 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: let me just be happy. It was like, let me 706 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: get this thing to be happy, let me get the 707 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: next milestone, and I did. I looked back at my 708 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: career and I was like, oh my god, I have 709 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 1: done everything, Like I'm exhausted. I have hit so many milestones, 710 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,439 Speaker 1: like on paper, I'm an impressive person, and yet I 711 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,479 Speaker 1: feel I'm still not there yet. I'll be happy when 712 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 1: X y Z happens. It was like this conscious decision 713 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 1: of like I'm gonna quit my ambition. I was like, 714 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: I'm letting it go. And it was so scary and 715 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,480 Speaker 1: I was so freaked out, but I was like, there's 716 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: no other choice, Like I just have to let this 717 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: stuff go and trust that it will come back if 718 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,799 Speaker 1: it comes back, like these desires and dreams and they 719 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,799 Speaker 1: were taking up too much space in my life, and 720 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: so I just focused on clients and I focus because 721 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: you know, all throughout my career I always had ten 722 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: different side hustles going on, always trying to get something going. Yeah, 723 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,839 Speaker 1: and some of them were aligned, some of them were not. 724 00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: And so then in the quitting of everything I could didn't. 725 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: I didn't write for a couple of years. I was 726 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: off social media. I was completely silent and I spent 727 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: mostly all of seen just like on my mind, like journaling, affirmations, exercise, routine, 728 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: mental health. Where did you begin to find those tools? 729 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:36,120 Speaker 1: Because as a chronic overachiever, Hi, so I'm nice to 730 00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,920 Speaker 1: see you. The irony of of constantly doing is that 731 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: you feel like you haven't done anything at all because 732 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:48,359 Speaker 1: there's no time to really enjoy it. And this year, interestingly, 733 00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,240 Speaker 1: so much of the world shutting down. My my fiance 734 00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: jokes that it took an actual global pandemic for me 735 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,959 Speaker 1: to slow down because I wasn't allowed to leave the house. 736 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: And it's the only reason I could do it, for 737 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: for us to be together, for so many things to happen. 738 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: And it's not lost on me that we are told 739 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,279 Speaker 1: but when you get that next thing, you'll be happy, 740 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: when you well, when you achieve this, when you've when 741 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,080 Speaker 1: you've sold a show, when you've done your eighteenth movie, 742 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: when you like it's just it never ends. And something 743 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 1: about this year I've sat and gone WHOA April was 744 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,759 Speaker 1: like my moment because I I launched season two of 745 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: this show. Hillary Clinton was the first guest. Then I 746 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,840 Speaker 1: premiered a movie at Tribeca in June. I went away, 747 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: got engaged. I'm off to shoot a show. You know, 748 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,960 Speaker 1: we got our show picked up in May. We start 749 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,760 Speaker 1: shooting in October. Like all of these things are happening. 750 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: And truly, when I tell you, in almost twenty years 751 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: of doing what I do for a living, this is 752 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: the first year where I'm actually enjoying what's going on 753 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: around me. Why does it take us eighteen years? So 754 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,239 Speaker 1: I'm I'm wondering. Each of us has are unique experiences, 755 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 1: but I actually do find and you said a version 756 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: of this earlier that oddly, the deeply specific is universal. 757 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,720 Speaker 1: I know that it's I've been nodding along with your story. 758 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: There are people not nodding along with what I'm saying 759 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: who haven't had this same year I've had. But we 760 00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:22,040 Speaker 1: are here going, oh exactly, So how do you begin? 761 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: Because I just know there's listeners at home going where 762 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: do I start? Where do I start to get back 763 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 1: in touch with myself? Where do I start to learn 764 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: to slow down? So where did you start? Because to 765 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: take a social media life, a digital life and say 766 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm out, I'm going to take a break just for me, 767 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: how how did you do that? What were the resources 768 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: that really mattered for you in this journey. I wish 769 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: I could say that there was a book or a 770 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: something that didn't but I actually felt pretty alone in 771 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,400 Speaker 1: it because I felt that the only versions of this 772 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: that I've seen is either like hyper hustle and like 773 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: keep hustling and never stop, or like go off the 774 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,200 Speaker 1: grid somewhere, and I was like, well, there's got to 775 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,600 Speaker 1: be a better way. Like I actually do think that 776 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: if you're really really caught up in it, that like 777 00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: simplifying things down to the absolute, like bare minimum of 778 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,480 Speaker 1: just the responsibilities, at least for a bit, is really nice, 779 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: because I think when everything is really crowded, it gets 780 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,319 Speaker 1: hard to see anything. It's just like you get into 781 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: the minutia of your life and you're just autopilot. And 782 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: I recognize. I was like, I'm on autopilot and I'm 783 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: not intentionally choosing any of these things. And I think 784 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: what what really changed for me was instead of saying 785 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: like okay, well, I mean, of course I want to 786 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,080 Speaker 1: be happy, but also I want to be fam this, 787 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: and I want to be a writer, and I want 788 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 1: to be this, and I want to be this, it's 789 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:06,479 Speaker 1: like be happy first. I think that's at the core 790 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: of it, because it's going to look different for everyone. 791 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: At the core is that we don't trust that if 792 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:19,359 Speaker 1: we slow down and pursue contentment that our dreams will 793 00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: still be there. Like we think that's complacency. We're like 794 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,520 Speaker 1: we're going to give up. That means I'm going to 795 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 1: give up. So I can't do that because there's things 796 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: I want to do. And that's how I felt. I 797 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: was like, well, I can't be happy with myself because 798 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,839 Speaker 1: then that means I'm I've given up on myself. If 799 00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: I tell myself I'm happy now and I celebrate myself down, 800 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,279 Speaker 1: I'm not where I want to be. Oh, that's just 801 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,320 Speaker 1: like you know, that's like promoting a life I don't want. 802 00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: And it was like, wow, that is real, internalized and 803 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: like conditioned, and I was like, that's not how it 804 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,200 Speaker 1: goes at all, Like because now what's been really interesting 805 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,640 Speaker 1: is I'm like that I'm like a living example of 806 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: like I made sure that I was content in the 807 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: moment and then now I get to enjoy all the 808 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 1: things that are happening. Also, I will say, if if 809 00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: you end up simplifying your life and simplifying down to 810 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: those things and they make you really happy and your 811 00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: dreams don't come back to you, then like go be happy, 812 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,279 Speaker 1: you know, go enjoy like you did it. Um, So 813 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,759 Speaker 1: it's like we I think I realized that this was 814 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: I was really like trapped by this ambition because I 815 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: thought it was, you know, the only way I could 816 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,600 Speaker 1: prove myself and the only way that my life would 817 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,239 Speaker 1: feel valuable and that I would feel worthy. Yeah, I 818 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: wondered too in thinking about timelines, you know, you're talking 819 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,760 Speaker 1: about kind of being this year of the slowdown, giving 820 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 1: yourself permission to actually be present and feel and and 821 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,759 Speaker 1: see what it was you wanted rather than just what 822 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 1: was next on your calendar. You talk about the fact 823 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:15,040 Speaker 1: that writing the article for Team Vogue in how accepting 824 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: the term plus size changed my life. Do you think 825 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,360 Speaker 1: that there was some part of you that in again 826 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,359 Speaker 1: choosing to take up your space and and really lean 827 00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,480 Speaker 1: into your own happiness and your own worth and to 828 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: undo all the toxic messaging and the nonsense that that 829 00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:41,600 Speaker 1: really kneecaps so many of us. Do you think that maybe, 830 00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: looking back, that moment created the shift where you said, oh, 831 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,319 Speaker 1: I need more of this, I need more happy that's 832 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:53,320 Speaker 1: mine just for me. Yeah, I think, so I think 833 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:58,040 Speaker 1: I realized being very present on social media, it also 834 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:02,879 Speaker 1: meant you're giving parts of yourself away sometimes unless you're 835 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: unless you're filling yourself back up, and it can mean 836 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,200 Speaker 1: like your life feels as if it's like for other 837 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: people to consume instead of for you to enjoy. And 838 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: I think that was really important for me to embrace 839 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,640 Speaker 1: all these parts of myself and to like work on 840 00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,200 Speaker 1: how I felt about my body and how that was 841 00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:27,919 Speaker 1: showing up, and how I was seeing my worth through 842 00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,800 Speaker 1: different lenses that I was being given, Like I didn't 843 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,640 Speaker 1: ask to see myself through this harsh lens, it was 844 00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:40,080 Speaker 1: like given to me. And so I think was like 845 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:44,560 Speaker 1: my big process of unlearning. I just had to sit 846 00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: back and go, what are these stories that are playing 847 00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:55,160 Speaker 1: on repeat that are causing me extreme like anxiety and 848 00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,240 Speaker 1: stress and causing me to be really harsh with myself. 849 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: And then I started rewriting the stories. So now a 850 00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,560 Speaker 1: cornerstone of my life is like being really intentional. So 851 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,760 Speaker 1: there's got to be a reason that something's on my schedule. 852 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:11,280 Speaker 1: There has to be a reason why I'm doing something, 853 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: and the reason can't be just to prove to someone 854 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: else that I'm good enough, it has to be like 855 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,719 Speaker 1: enjoying my gifts, or if I'm doing a big project, 856 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: like it's got to be fun for me, or or 857 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 1: meaningful or or a challenge like it. I think we 858 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,640 Speaker 1: get out of this idea that like our lives are 859 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,160 Speaker 1: for us, like and our gifts that were given are 860 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: for us, like they're called gifts for reason. They're not 861 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,480 Speaker 1: gifts for others too, you know, like other people can 862 00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,960 Speaker 1: enjoy them. I mean, you know you act like you 863 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,839 Speaker 1: you do all these things, all these artistic things, and 864 00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,799 Speaker 1: it's for other people's enjoyment, sure, but it's just as 865 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:54,759 Speaker 1: important for you to enjoy what they bring to you. 866 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:57,680 Speaker 1: And I think that was a big thing where I was, 867 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,279 Speaker 1: like I did not feel that with writing. It was 868 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,000 Speaker 1: every time I sat down, going Okay, how can I 869 00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 1: say what I think other people want to hear or 870 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:13,040 Speaker 1: want me to say? And I had to connect back 871 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,720 Speaker 1: to my voice in more ways than one and recognize 872 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,960 Speaker 1: that like being happy with where I am and celebrating 873 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,959 Speaker 1: where I am even when I'm not where I expected 874 00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: to be, that's not going to take away from my future. 875 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,160 Speaker 1: Like I can still be challenged, I can still want 876 00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,040 Speaker 1: to do tons of different things. I can still want 877 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,440 Speaker 1: to have more and do more, but I don't want 878 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,399 Speaker 1: to be like my life will only be good when 879 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,359 Speaker 1: I hit certain milestones, only to realize that you hit 880 00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:48,880 Speaker 1: the certain milestones and it doesn't click in. So that 881 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,799 Speaker 1: was the big thing. I was like, wait, I keep 882 00:53:51,840 --> 00:53:55,440 Speaker 1: trying to find a way out of this, Prove my 883 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,359 Speaker 1: way out of this, achieve my way out of this, 884 00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,640 Speaker 1: change my body out of this, like all these things. 885 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,759 Speaker 1: And then I was like, the only thing that I 886 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 1: can really do is unlearned this messaging and unlearned this 887 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: idea because it's not actually serving me because I think 888 00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:16,000 Speaker 1: it's motivating, But now I realize, I'm like, if you're 889 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: motivated by like your own like shame and judgment and harshness, 890 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,480 Speaker 1: imagine how you'll feel when you're motivated by like love 891 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:29,080 Speaker 1: and joy and happiness. Like it won't make you complacent. 892 00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,400 Speaker 1: It will actually give you so much energy and so 893 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: much excitement and you get to like be present in 894 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,600 Speaker 1: your life. Yeah. So that's why it's funny because now 895 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,320 Speaker 1: I feel like the idea of satisfaction is coming into 896 00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,200 Speaker 1: um popular you know culture, Like we're talking about contentment 897 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,120 Speaker 1: and things like this but I did a book proposal 898 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen about this and no one wanted it. Wow, 899 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:03,920 Speaker 1: because everyone it was all about like hustle and you know, 900 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,719 Speaker 1: don't ever give up. Like that was a time and 901 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,799 Speaker 1: I loved the book How to Be a Badass by 902 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,560 Speaker 1: Jensen Sarah, but that was the time of that of 903 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:16,120 Speaker 1: like never give up, grind it out, you'll be happy 904 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,960 Speaker 1: when you get to certain places. And I presented this 905 00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,960 Speaker 1: totally different view and the publishers were like, no, we 906 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 1: don't really see a market for this, and I was like, okay, 907 00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,960 Speaker 1: Like rejection after rejection, I was just like, all right, 908 00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:37,399 Speaker 1: I guess it's not time or people aren't interested in this. 909 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:42,560 Speaker 1: They want that like hustle culture feeling. I was like, okay, well, 910 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,319 Speaker 1: I'm not going to write that book, but it's so 911 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:49,160 Speaker 1: interesting because people want the hustle culture. And then they go, oh, 912 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to hustle myself right into an open grave. 913 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this. What am I supposed 914 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,440 Speaker 1: to do? That's different? And so I ah, I guess 915 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,719 Speaker 1: I'm just really glad that it's twenty twenty one and 916 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,279 Speaker 1: that your new book is coming out is about contentment. 917 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,920 Speaker 1: I mean going through. I don't want to call it 918 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 1: the rejection. I want to call it being in a 919 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 1: moment where it wasn't time yet, because you're right, that's 920 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,720 Speaker 1: exactly what it was. People weren't ready to see past 921 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:22,319 Speaker 1: the bumper stickers two the actual experience, or perhaps even 922 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,200 Speaker 1: the toll on people's mental health that that relentless hustle 923 00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:32,000 Speaker 1: culture was creating. So you've been sitting with this book, 924 00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: and guys, the book is available for pre order already. 925 00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,840 Speaker 1: It's called Radically Content Being Satisfied in an endlessly dissatisfied world. 926 00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,759 Speaker 1: And you've talked about this, and you said something that 927 00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,200 Speaker 1: I talked to my friends about all the time, that 928 00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,120 Speaker 1: existing in a world that makes money on our dissatisfaction 929 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:56,400 Speaker 1: and choosing to pursue and find and claim your satisfaction, 930 00:56:56,520 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: your celebration of where you are in a moment, regardless 931 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,480 Speaker 1: of whatever you're in a means for later in your life. 932 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,480 Speaker 1: That really is a revolutionary act because it allows you 933 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,360 Speaker 1: to undo a whole bunch of keeping up that costs 934 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:13,400 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of money. So I guess I'm struck 935 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,799 Speaker 1: by almost the humorous irony of the fact that you 936 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 1: wrote this book and you were like, oh, these people 937 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,479 Speaker 1: I have to pitch it. Two aren't content yet. Yeah, 938 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:23,040 Speaker 1: so so what did you do with it? Did you 939 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 1: just say like, all right, it's not time. I'm just 940 00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: gonna wait, Like, how do you how do you exercise 941 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:34,400 Speaker 1: what happens? I was sad. It was sad, and I 942 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,280 Speaker 1: mean like it was fine, but it's funny because again 943 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,320 Speaker 1: the lens, I'm like, I'm so glad didn't happen. But 944 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: at the time I really felt like, you know, a 945 00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:50,720 Speaker 1: little resentful. So I actually just pivoted. I wrote two novels. 946 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: One of them will sit in a drawer forever and 947 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:55,720 Speaker 1: no one will ever read it. One of them has 948 00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: been edited and is now in a place where it 949 00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:03,640 Speaker 1: can go out in the world. But yeah, like I 950 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,200 Speaker 1: just pivoted, and I changed direction. And I think there's 951 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,120 Speaker 1: a part of me that just trusted, Okay, if the nonfiction, 952 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: if doing this kind of book is going to come 953 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,680 Speaker 1: back around, it will, and then in the most poetic 954 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:23,520 Speaker 1: way it did. Because I had an agent at the time, 955 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:29,200 Speaker 1: and this was early I spent all being like, well, 956 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen for me, you know. 957 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,040 Speaker 1: I was just like, I don't understand. And I was 958 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:40,520 Speaker 1: the one watching every single friend that ever talked about 959 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:46,080 Speaker 1: writing a book, getting book deals, doing launching their books, everything, 960 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,560 Speaker 1: and I was just like, well, this is humbling because 961 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:57,200 Speaker 1: like I don't know what, Like this isn't my time yet. Cool? Cool, Cool, 962 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,960 Speaker 1: I'll just be here, I'll get I'm over here, still 963 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:06,800 Speaker 1: thinking about the book, right um. And I recognized this 964 00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:11,200 Speaker 1: agent wasn't advocating for me, and I sent her my 965 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: novel and it wasn't. She said it wasn't ready. And 966 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, this is a person that is supposed to 967 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:21,760 Speaker 1: be on my team. And I would have completely crumbled 968 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:24,800 Speaker 1: if it had been any other time. And I just 969 00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: like there was a fire. This was early, and I 970 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,040 Speaker 1: was like I believe in this book and I believe 971 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:34,520 Speaker 1: in my message, and actually I'm not doing this anymore 972 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:37,240 Speaker 1: of like, you know, publishing is so hard and it's 973 00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,440 Speaker 1: just not your time yet. I was like no, I'm ready, 974 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,800 Speaker 1: Like I'm so ready. So I was like we're done, 975 00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,560 Speaker 1: love and light, I appreciate you, but I got to 976 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,080 Speaker 1: I have to leave. And everyone was saying like, oh, 977 00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,480 Speaker 1: it's so hard to get an agent. Don't do that, 978 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,480 Speaker 1: and I was like I don't care I'll do it 979 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 1: by myself, like I was ready to self publish everything 980 00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:01,840 Speaker 1: really early. I was like, gonna self publish every single book. 981 01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,040 Speaker 1: I don't even care. I'm done waiting for people to 982 01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:09,720 Speaker 1: choose me. I choose. And then same week that I 983 01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:12,200 Speaker 1: let go of my agent, I get an email out 984 01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: of nowhere from someone from a publishing house going, I 985 01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,880 Speaker 1: love your writing so much, it's changed my life. Are 986 01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:22,960 Speaker 1: are you interested in doing a book? And that's radically content? 987 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,000 Speaker 1: And she said to me, And I had always manifested 988 01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,280 Speaker 1: this idea. I was like, I don't understand why I 989 01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:34,360 Speaker 1: have to beg and get this book proposal and hope 990 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:36,800 Speaker 1: and wish. I was like I always imagine that someone 991 01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,960 Speaker 1: would come to me and see the talent, like I've 992 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,720 Speaker 1: put so much work out there, it's still not enough. 993 01:00:43,560 --> 01:00:45,840 Speaker 1: And then the moment I was like it's enough and 994 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,040 Speaker 1: I'm ready, this person pops out of nowhere. This woman 995 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:50,960 Speaker 1: pops out of nowhere and goes, I don't need a 996 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: book proposal from you. I don't need anything from you. 997 01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: I want just your top level idea and I'm ready 998 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,200 Speaker 1: to give you a deal, like, let's do it. You 999 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,200 Speaker 1: can write whatever you want, like she was like, you 1000 01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:04,400 Speaker 1: can give me an outline, but really just write whatever 1001 01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: you want because I know the book is gonna be amazing. 1002 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 1: And I was like, what this exists? And then that 1003 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 1: really changed everything, because when you're trying to prove you're 1004 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:23,400 Speaker 1: worth and do the the dance, it gets so complicated. 1005 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:26,640 Speaker 1: You're like, okay, so if I get this or someone 1006 01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,400 Speaker 1: tells me this or to that the and then this 1007 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:33,080 Speaker 1: is essentially what my book is about, is like just 1008 01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,720 Speaker 1: opt out. Like I just opted out. I was like, 1009 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:41,000 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm not, I'm not doing it anymore. Yeah, 1010 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 1: it's like you don't have to try to keep up 1011 01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,400 Speaker 1: with the world as it's happening around you. There are 1012 01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: other avenues, but so many of us don't have those 1013 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,840 Speaker 1: presented to us. And I think there's such a human 1014 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,920 Speaker 1: reality in being scared to lose or let go. You 1015 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,640 Speaker 1: know a lot of people in your position. Shian with 1016 01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,280 Speaker 1: that first agent, who was clearly terrible and had bad taste, 1017 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:06,960 Speaker 1: would say, but if I walk away from this, I'll 1018 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,960 Speaker 1: have even less. But really, if you walk away from something, 1019 01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:15,919 Speaker 1: there's the potential for so much more. And I I'm 1020 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,400 Speaker 1: excited a that you know you live all of this 1021 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:21,360 Speaker 1: out loud so we all get to come along for 1022 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,160 Speaker 1: the ride and be that You've also chosen to take 1023 01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:30,640 Speaker 1: on an educational role because you're using your experiences to 1024 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:34,600 Speaker 1: help so many other people. And I think it's profound 1025 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:37,920 Speaker 1: because you know, similarly to you when you talk about 1026 01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,080 Speaker 1: like maybe it's being a Gemini, I I'm a cancer. 1027 01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:43,920 Speaker 1: My birthday is July eight. I'm like, yep, that makes sense. 1028 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,040 Speaker 1: Super sensitive, I retreat into my shell. I love water fine, 1029 01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,440 Speaker 1: And I like, okay, you know you you try to 1030 01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:55,120 Speaker 1: like see. And I had a chat recently, um, this 1031 01:02:55,240 --> 01:03:00,120 Speaker 1: fascinating chat with the founder of the pattern that some 1032 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,160 Speaker 1: app and she was like, no, you don't go by 1033 01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:06,880 Speaker 1: your sun sign, you go by your mood sign. Like, Babe, 1034 01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:09,600 Speaker 1: you have all the cancer qualities, but you're also a Gemini. 1035 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,240 Speaker 1: That's why you present is really hyper confident to the world, 1036 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,920 Speaker 1: but you're terrified, like you have two things happening inside 1037 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,240 Speaker 1: of you at the same time. And I was like, 1038 01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:19,480 Speaker 1: oh my god, this just makes my life makes so 1039 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:24,280 Speaker 1: much more sense. I didn't know. And I think as 1040 01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:28,880 Speaker 1: a person who listens to you say, I've just always 1041 01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,880 Speaker 1: said no, I'm doing it anyway. I know that for 1042 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,160 Speaker 1: me I can get really I can get harangued by 1043 01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:37,560 Speaker 1: the fear, I can get really paralyzed. I can go 1044 01:03:38,200 --> 01:03:40,880 Speaker 1: I know that I could do this, but I'm so 1045 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:46,080 Speaker 1: scared to fail that I won't start. And you are 1046 01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:52,080 Speaker 1: creating content that is pushing people like me over that edge. 1047 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,160 Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful. And I imagine the audience you know, 1048 01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,320 Speaker 1: who hasn't been on on your site yet but who 1049 01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,760 Speaker 1: clearly are all going after this, are going to be 1050 01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:09,000 Speaker 1: so grateful because the course living with intention it it 1051 01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,000 Speaker 1: turns on a lot of these ideas. It reminds you 1052 01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,240 Speaker 1: that you have to write your own permission slips because 1053 01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,320 Speaker 1: nobody else is going to do it for you. So 1054 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,800 Speaker 1: how how did you create it? And then how did 1055 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:22,440 Speaker 1: you say, Yep, it's going out there. I have this 1056 01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:25,640 Speaker 1: company that does branding and now here I am teaching 1057 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,600 Speaker 1: people how to live more intentionally. How does a person 1058 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:36,120 Speaker 1: do that? Honestly, I I think I have this core 1059 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:42,320 Speaker 1: belief that I'm like, being afraid does not define me, 1060 01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:47,000 Speaker 1: and so I can be afraid and brave and I 1061 01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,120 Speaker 1: can put things out there, you know. And I've also 1062 01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,320 Speaker 1: seen a lot of teachers on this, like a lot 1063 01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,400 Speaker 1: of people that I follow they you know, they do 1064 01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,960 Speaker 1: all sorts of different things, and so I've there's been 1065 01:04:57,040 --> 01:04:59,880 Speaker 1: some of that of like modeling, and that's the importance 1066 01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,720 Speaker 1: of representation or and that's also the reason why I 1067 01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: love social media so much, is like you get to 1068 01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,840 Speaker 1: just be. I mean, there's so there's a lot of 1069 01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:11,120 Speaker 1: stuff that's not great about it, there's a lot of 1070 01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:14,200 Speaker 1: really good parts where you get to like see other 1071 01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,160 Speaker 1: women living in ways that can make you really rise 1072 01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: up and you know, and I feel very like humbled 1073 01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,640 Speaker 1: and grateful for that. But also I think if I 1074 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:28,880 Speaker 1: don't use my gifts, it causes a lot of distress 1075 01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,919 Speaker 1: in my personal life, you know. So I see that 1076 01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:36,640 Speaker 1: when I deny myself, it takes more actually takes more 1077 01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:40,160 Speaker 1: energy for me to deny myself something then it does 1078 01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,240 Speaker 1: to find a way to do it. And it's a practice. 1079 01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:45,640 Speaker 1: I think that's something That's another thing where it's like 1080 01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: that's something I teach in this court in my course, 1081 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,479 Speaker 1: which is you know, the Live with Intention course, where 1082 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:55,000 Speaker 1: it's like it's a practice to show up and you 1083 01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:59,680 Speaker 1: you become less motivated by the results when you see 1084 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,600 Speaker 1: a can feel your own progress. So whenever I'm feeling 1085 01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:05,520 Speaker 1: the fear. I think what I do is try to 1086 01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,000 Speaker 1: take it all back in. I'm like, Okay, I need 1087 01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,120 Speaker 1: to show up for me, because the fear is always 1088 01:06:12,200 --> 01:06:16,240 Speaker 1: some externalizing of something, you know, afraid of what someone's 1089 01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:20,040 Speaker 1: gonna say or how someone's gonna view it, or you know, 1090 01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:22,800 Speaker 1: it could very easily be like Jamie, you're a web designer, 1091 01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:24,720 Speaker 1: what are you doing a course for? You know? It's 1092 01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:28,320 Speaker 1: like you know, but it's like, I just go, I'm 1093 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,560 Speaker 1: gonna do this for me because I came up with 1094 01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:34,520 Speaker 1: something that really worked and I think it sounds fun, 1095 01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,400 Speaker 1: and I know that it has taken a long time 1096 01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,760 Speaker 1: for me to get there. But I also know that 1097 01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:45,400 Speaker 1: I have also recognized the power of taking action even 1098 01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 1: when I'm afraid, because mostly because even though I've done 1099 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot, there was a lot that I didn't do 1100 01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,320 Speaker 1: in that time. There was a lot that I was 1101 01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,840 Speaker 1: denying and not taking action on it. When I turned thirty, 1102 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,080 Speaker 1: it really caught up to me of like what what 1103 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,480 Speaker 1: what are you doing? You know, there's some things that 1104 01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,760 Speaker 1: you're really ignoring, and so there's this is another exercise 1105 01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:10,800 Speaker 1: that I do with myself where I start to imagine 1106 01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: my future self and I think of her like so lovingly, 1107 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:16,680 Speaker 1: and I'm like, a year from now, is she going 1108 01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,120 Speaker 1: to be happy that I didn't take action on this? 1109 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,960 Speaker 1: Or is she going to feel burdened by the fact that, 1110 01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,520 Speaker 1: like we still have this dream that we haven't taken 1111 01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:31,520 Speaker 1: steps on Because I felt that where I look back 1112 01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,680 Speaker 1: and I'm like, why didn't I Why didn't I do that? 1113 01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:38,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm like, I need to take action on everything, 1114 01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:43,800 Speaker 1: because first of all, it clarifies the idea, and when 1115 01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:49,400 Speaker 1: you take action on things, you recognize that, like the 1116 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:53,840 Speaker 1: fear was really coming from what happens in the inaction, 1117 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 1: and the fear really does start to dissipate when you 1118 01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:00,680 Speaker 1: have that, like if you just take small steps. I 1119 01:08:00,720 --> 01:08:03,680 Speaker 1: mean I wrote and I wrote two novels. The first 1120 01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:05,919 Speaker 1: novel I no idea what I was doing. I didn't 1121 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,880 Speaker 1: go to school for anything. I didn't do an fancy 1122 01:08:09,080 --> 01:08:11,880 Speaker 1: m f A. I was just like, I like reading, 1123 01:08:13,080 --> 01:08:17,800 Speaker 1: let me just do this seriously, no outline, nothing. I 1124 01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,760 Speaker 1: was just like, I like fiction, like why not? And 1125 01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,360 Speaker 1: I just worked on it and it sucks, like it's 1126 01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,880 Speaker 1: not good, but that's okay because then what happened was 1127 01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:33,559 Speaker 1: I started to celebrate that I was even doing it, 1128 01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:36,479 Speaker 1: so that had That's why That's something that has been 1129 01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:40,320 Speaker 1: really important to me, is like celebrating the most smallest, 1130 01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:43,439 Speaker 1: like you even did it like that, that to me 1131 01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,599 Speaker 1: is enough. Or I'm like, you sat down and worked 1132 01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:50,000 Speaker 1: on this for thirty minutes and that's good. That's good enough, 1133 01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, And because like even that, we don't give 1134 01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:58,719 Speaker 1: ourselves that at all. And so I've seen the power 1135 01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,320 Speaker 1: of like celebrating the small things, taking the small steps, 1136 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,439 Speaker 1: taking action even when you're afraid stop like not doing 1137 01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:10,640 Speaker 1: that I'm not ready yet, because things get clarified. And 1138 01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,479 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of our inner I guess 1139 01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:19,200 Speaker 1: when we're being hard on ourselves, it's coming from usually 1140 01:09:19,200 --> 01:09:23,400 Speaker 1: like denying some of that to ourselves, like denying the celebration, 1141 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,680 Speaker 1: denying the gift that we have, denying giving ourselves like 1142 01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:30,599 Speaker 1: just the thirty minutes in the day to do that 1143 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,920 Speaker 1: thing that we really want to do. So I think 1144 01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,720 Speaker 1: I got to the place where because I back in 1145 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,120 Speaker 1: seventeen made my mental health such a big part of 1146 01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,200 Speaker 1: my healing, and I wanted that to be really, you know, 1147 01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:49,439 Speaker 1: important to me. I think I've also seen that I'm 1148 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:53,040 Speaker 1: just not available anymore to like punish and harm myself, 1149 01:09:53,640 --> 01:09:56,800 Speaker 1: like I don't. The world is like harsh enough, you know, 1150 01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,479 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's a lot, and they're a lot 1151 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,439 Speaker 1: going on that it's a really heartbreaking and hard to 1152 01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,880 Speaker 1: deal with, and things happen that are out of our control. 1153 01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:12,479 Speaker 1: Like I'm not going to be the barrier to myself anymore. 1154 01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:15,000 Speaker 1: Like I'm going to uplift myself. I'm going to be 1155 01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:17,439 Speaker 1: the one that says, like, you can do it. Actually, 1156 01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:20,720 Speaker 1: maybe try it, you know, and and and maybe when 1157 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:23,360 Speaker 1: you try it, you might see that you like, there, 1158 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:25,519 Speaker 1: there's plenty of things that I've tried and I go, 1159 01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:30,840 Speaker 1: this was not it. Next. I love that you don't 1160 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:35,320 Speaker 1: have to be society's assistant in holding you down. Oh 1161 01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,960 Speaker 1: my god, you just don't have to be that. And 1162 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:42,120 Speaker 1: I think that again. I just keep coming back to this. 1163 01:10:42,200 --> 01:10:44,720 Speaker 1: It's really for me. It's the crux of storytelling, and 1164 01:10:44,760 --> 01:10:48,000 Speaker 1: it feels so central to everything you've been sharing and 1165 01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:56,520 Speaker 1: teaching us today. The specific is universal. Personal is universal. 1166 01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,360 Speaker 1: It's a place that we all meet and and I 1167 01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:02,640 Speaker 1: love that so many of your articles, so many of 1168 01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:07,120 Speaker 1: the things you share, really look at, you know, political 1169 01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,479 Speaker 1: and social issues through your personal experiences through your personal lens. 1170 01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:13,000 Speaker 1: It's the same thing I try to do in my 1171 01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:17,000 Speaker 1: own way, you know, with the audience here, all our 1172 01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,559 Speaker 1: all our great web smarties at home, with with the 1173 01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:23,519 Speaker 1: people that I talked to you on social and I 1174 01:11:23,560 --> 01:11:26,320 Speaker 1: have just been so touched and felt really grateful that 1175 01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:29,880 Speaker 1: you've talked about the reality of things. You know, you've 1176 01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,880 Speaker 1: talked about the pains of your husband's citizenships that as 1177 01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:35,800 Speaker 1: under the Trump administration. I was able to send that 1178 01:11:35,920 --> 01:11:38,120 Speaker 1: to a friend of mine who her and her partner 1179 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:40,040 Speaker 1: were going through a very similar thing at the time, 1180 01:11:40,160 --> 01:11:42,960 Speaker 1: and and you made her feel so seen. You know, 1181 01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,799 Speaker 1: you've talked about the existence of and also people's tendency 1182 01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:50,799 Speaker 1: to be defensive of white privilege. You've critiqued social figures, 1183 01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, from Trump to Hillary Clinton. You come in 1184 01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:58,920 Speaker 1: with an honest perspective, and you encourage people to keep 1185 01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:03,799 Speaker 1: discourse lowing, which I think is so important on socio 1186 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,040 Speaker 1: political issues, because now everybody wants to get in their 1187 01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:07,960 Speaker 1: corners and just bark at each other, and I'm like, well, 1188 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:11,479 Speaker 1: that's not getting us anywhere. So how do you think, 1189 01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,400 Speaker 1: having shared so many of your own experiences and thoughts, 1190 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:21,080 Speaker 1: how do you think we can continue to broaden the 1191 01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:26,559 Speaker 1: perspectives of what was our past cultural norm you know, 1192 01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:30,360 Speaker 1: the very white, the male, the thin, the heatero, the neurotypical. 1193 01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:34,720 Speaker 1: How do you see us, you know, meeting to broaden 1194 01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:39,280 Speaker 1: as we move forward. I mean I really think what 1195 01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:43,000 Speaker 1: you're talking about when it comes to storytelling, I think 1196 01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:46,600 Speaker 1: we need more people who maybe don't fit all the 1197 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:52,320 Speaker 1: boxes to not wait for permission to share, because that's 1198 01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:57,080 Speaker 1: always been very important to me, is to not if 1199 01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,519 Speaker 1: I if I wait, I'll wait forever because like I 1200 01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:03,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not supposed to have a voice. Like really, 1201 01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:06,320 Speaker 1: if I think about it, you know, I don't come 1202 01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:09,360 Speaker 1: from money. I'm not thin. There's certain privileges that I 1203 01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:11,880 Speaker 1: do have, but certain a lot that are against me 1204 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,559 Speaker 1: when it comes to having a voice and having an 1205 01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:18,519 Speaker 1: opinion and having power. Um So, I think that the 1206 01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:22,360 Speaker 1: more that we do share stories, because I've noticed that, 1207 01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, online discourse has kind of become very combative 1208 01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:32,240 Speaker 1: and it's less about us sharing our stories and how 1209 01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:34,720 Speaker 1: we're coming to different conclusions because I think people are 1210 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:38,240 Speaker 1: may be scared to say certain things, but I also 1211 01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:41,280 Speaker 1: think that we need more of that. We need more 1212 01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:45,599 Speaker 1: people to kind of come to the conversation and just 1213 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:49,640 Speaker 1: say here's where I'm at, like do you want to 1214 01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:54,559 Speaker 1: meet me here? And I'm not going to be angry 1215 01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:59,240 Speaker 1: with myself and I'm coming at this too, see if 1216 01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,559 Speaker 1: we can reach in an understanding, because I think with 1217 01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:05,639 Speaker 1: every everything that I do, something that's always been very 1218 01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:08,559 Speaker 1: very important to me is like I don't want to 1219 01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:12,599 Speaker 1: be right. I want to be free, and I want 1220 01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:16,120 Speaker 1: there to be more freedom for more people, not more 1221 01:14:16,200 --> 01:14:20,040 Speaker 1: people needing to be right about certain things. And that 1222 01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:24,800 Speaker 1: has always been very important because for some reason, I've 1223 01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:26,600 Speaker 1: just always looked at things on more of like a 1224 01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:29,439 Speaker 1: global scale and how it can apply to more people. 1225 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,759 Speaker 1: And I do know that the personal is universal because 1226 01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:35,519 Speaker 1: the more that I share the personal things, the more 1227 01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:39,280 Speaker 1: like That's why you know, my book originally was going 1228 01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,519 Speaker 1: to be more of like a self helped guide. It 1229 01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:45,120 Speaker 1: turned into a lot more memoir. And from what I've 1230 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,680 Speaker 1: heard from people who have even who have read it 1231 01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,640 Speaker 1: so far, of my early readers, it's that like is 1232 01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:55,120 Speaker 1: the part that makes them feel heard, and I'm like, 1233 01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,600 Speaker 1: that's so interesting, Like that that keeps coming true and 1234 01:14:59,720 --> 01:15:02,479 Speaker 1: yet that come That's how it is with everything. I 1235 01:15:02,479 --> 01:15:05,439 Speaker 1: mean That's why we watch certain TV shows or movies 1236 01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:09,880 Speaker 1: or read certain fiction books or anything is to be understood, 1237 01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,599 Speaker 1: to see a different type of viewpoint. And I think 1238 01:15:13,680 --> 01:15:18,599 Speaker 1: that if we can come to ourselves open minded and 1239 01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:23,120 Speaker 1: affirm ourselves to have a voice, even if and it 1240 01:15:23,120 --> 01:15:25,599 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you have to have like a loudspeaker voice, 1241 01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:27,840 Speaker 1: it can mean that you just have a point, like 1242 01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:32,400 Speaker 1: a voice to yourself. Like that's where it starts, you know, 1243 01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:36,200 Speaker 1: give yourself some space to have something to say, to 1244 01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:40,760 Speaker 1: like have an opinion, to think beyond the binaries and 1245 01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:46,200 Speaker 1: think beyond the conditioning um because I think when we 1246 01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:49,559 Speaker 1: look at it, there's a lot of things that we're 1247 01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:55,160 Speaker 1: taking as ultimate truth does like harming us and is 1248 01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:59,240 Speaker 1: keeping us kind of locked in. And so it's funny 1249 01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:02,880 Speaker 1: because I like my work as much as I am 1250 01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 1: kind and gentle, I also I'm like, I want to 1251 01:16:06,320 --> 01:16:09,360 Speaker 1: be a little confronting, like I I want to let 1252 01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,240 Speaker 1: make people think a little bit and kind of look 1253 01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:15,479 Speaker 1: at them and look at how they view the world 1254 01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:18,560 Speaker 1: and see if there's a different way and just expand 1255 01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:23,240 Speaker 1: people's thinking because I know that that's what has helped me. 1256 01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:28,920 Speaker 1: And I know that when you share that people are 1257 01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:32,320 Speaker 1: able to see a different way. And the other thing 1258 01:16:32,439 --> 01:16:36,280 Speaker 1: is that when we use storytelling, I'm noticing that it 1259 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:39,880 Speaker 1: allows people to come to their own conclusions instead of 1260 01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:42,160 Speaker 1: being like, here's how to think, here's how to be, 1261 01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,480 Speaker 1: here's how to do this, Like, people don't respond always 1262 01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:48,839 Speaker 1: that well to that. Even though there are certain norms 1263 01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:50,680 Speaker 1: that we have, there are certain things that like we 1264 01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:53,560 Speaker 1: need to talk about that are important to hold people accountable. 1265 01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:56,880 Speaker 1: But there's certain things that I'm like, it's a little 1266 01:16:56,920 --> 01:17:00,519 Speaker 1: lower stakes, like let's talk about let's talk about some 1267 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:05,280 Speaker 1: real things without having to jump to defensiveness. And I 1268 01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:08,120 Speaker 1: think it's easier to understand a message when it's delivered 1269 01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:13,719 Speaker 1: from someone's kind of like humility and being like, here's 1270 01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,840 Speaker 1: an idea, what do you think like, here's my here's 1271 01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:19,800 Speaker 1: what I went through, what do you think Like? That 1272 01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:24,760 Speaker 1: really seems to soften the blow bit. I like that, 1273 01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:30,600 Speaker 1: And I think when you're trying to create more tenderness 1274 01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:34,719 Speaker 1: and understanding, it will shape the way you approach things. 1275 01:17:35,520 --> 01:17:39,559 Speaker 1: It's certainly the exhaustion of the intensity of the last 1276 01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:44,679 Speaker 1: couple of years in particular, have definitely made me want 1277 01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:50,760 Speaker 1: to approach things differently. I believe in staunch defense of humanity, 1278 01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:56,400 Speaker 1: and I certainly wonder about how we can have some 1279 01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:01,960 Speaker 1: of those conversations clearly, yes, but but perhaps more tenderly 1280 01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:05,000 Speaker 1: so that we welcome people who might be afraid of 1281 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:08,960 Speaker 1: of the intensity, so that we welcome them to the table. Yeah. 1282 01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:12,799 Speaker 1: I mean I will be earnest and sincere and tender 1283 01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:14,960 Speaker 1: till the day I die. Like, I just think it's 1284 01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:18,800 Speaker 1: the most I'm like, I'd rather be that way than 1285 01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:23,840 Speaker 1: shut myself off. Even though I mean there were parts. 1286 01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:26,599 Speaker 1: I will say there are times in where I was like, 1287 01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:34,960 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not feeling as tender as gentle once felt 1288 01:18:35,640 --> 01:18:42,160 Speaker 1: like I am being. I am strengthening this muscle. Um like, 1289 01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:48,760 Speaker 1: oh I feel ferocious today. Wow opinions Okay, Um, it's 1290 01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,160 Speaker 1: tricky because I think we need fire. I think people's 1291 01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:57,960 Speaker 1: anger is justified. I mean, anger changes things, and so 1292 01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,639 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say, you know, like people will have to 1293 01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:03,400 Speaker 1: have a reason to you know. I mean, things do 1294 01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:06,080 Speaker 1: need to change. I think That's where I'm at where 1295 01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:09,599 Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, things need to change, but also change 1296 01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:14,800 Speaker 1: might not happen as fast as I wanted to, and 1297 01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:17,320 Speaker 1: so I need to find a way to exist in 1298 01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:23,400 Speaker 1: the balance between like, we're not in the progressive, idealistic 1299 01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:26,160 Speaker 1: world that I imagine we could be if we were 1300 01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:29,880 Speaker 1: more involved. But also I have to exist here and 1301 01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,280 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to drown here. There are 1302 01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:37,879 Speaker 1: so many reasons to feel bleak that it now feels 1303 01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:40,800 Speaker 1: revolutionary to feel joy. And I think that's the thing 1304 01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:46,000 Speaker 1: that's really worth clinging to and and leaning into. And 1305 01:19:46,080 --> 01:19:51,360 Speaker 1: I I'm certainly working on that. My gosh, uh, tempering 1306 01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:55,720 Speaker 1: my my ferocious response to injustice with a desire to 1307 01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:01,040 Speaker 1: find joy. What a novel idea? I that's all, yeah, 1308 01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:06,160 Speaker 1: that's yeah. I'm like, oh, work in progress, work literally 1309 01:20:06,560 --> 01:20:10,080 Speaker 1: literally work in progress. But that was actually so funny 1310 01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:11,400 Speaker 1: that you just said that, because that was going to 1311 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:14,639 Speaker 1: be my question for you in in this moment where 1312 01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:18,240 Speaker 1: so much is happening, um and as a person who 1313 01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:22,360 Speaker 1: has been a truth teller and and a an emotional 1314 01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:25,880 Speaker 1: example center and a leader for so many people. The 1315 01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:28,679 Speaker 1: book is coming, you know, you talked about the novels 1316 01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:35,200 Speaker 1: you've written and this moment you find yourself in, what 1317 01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:37,920 Speaker 1: would you say feels like your work in progress right now? 1318 01:20:38,439 --> 01:20:42,200 Speaker 1: My work in progress right now is really trying not 1319 01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:50,280 Speaker 1: to limit myself because I I sometimes go too realistic 1320 01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:52,680 Speaker 1: or I want to understand how it's all going to 1321 01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:58,360 Speaker 1: work out, and I sometimes have guilt, you know, like 1322 01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:03,960 Speaker 1: people are suffering. And this is a part of a 1323 01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:05,840 Speaker 1: time in my life where a lot of things that 1324 01:21:05,960 --> 01:21:11,439 Speaker 1: I've been working towards are sort of crackling and there's 1325 01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:16,080 Speaker 1: a lonesome building and the rejections are fewer and far between, 1326 01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,040 Speaker 1: and this type of thing that I've been working towards, 1327 01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:24,559 Speaker 1: and I can definitely feel that guilt sometimes comes up 1328 01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:27,960 Speaker 1: that you know, maybe I want to lessen it a 1329 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:31,559 Speaker 1: little bit or you know, well it's not I don't know, 1330 01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:36,120 Speaker 1: it's not that great. And instead my work has been 1331 01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,880 Speaker 1: to be like just be in it fully and like 1332 01:21:40,080 --> 01:21:43,800 Speaker 1: don't put limits on it, and trust that it's gonna 1333 01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:46,880 Speaker 1: take you where you're meant to be. And you know, 1334 01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:51,360 Speaker 1: I think I'm a little hesitant around spotlight and things 1335 01:21:51,439 --> 01:21:53,439 Speaker 1: like that. You know, we put a lot of pressure, 1336 01:21:53,760 --> 01:22:00,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure, you know, on our public figures, and I'm like, hey, 1337 01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:03,519 Speaker 1: you know, it's a it can sometimes be a burden 1338 01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,160 Speaker 1: to be a leader, to have a voice and feel 1339 01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:09,960 Speaker 1: that feel the weight of that sometimes, so there's some 1340 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:15,599 Speaker 1: work in there about the guilt and accepting blessings and 1341 01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,680 Speaker 1: accepting when things do start to come true, and not 1342 01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:24,040 Speaker 1: try to over identify with it as like oh now 1343 01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:29,240 Speaker 1: I'm I'm better than people, or and then not try 1344 01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:35,200 Speaker 1: to diminish it too, and just be like, Okay, this 1345 01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:38,599 Speaker 1: is happening, and I need to be in it while 1346 01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:42,240 Speaker 1: I'm in it, and also you know, celebrate it, but 1347 01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:47,759 Speaker 1: also not get too caught up in like my own 1348 01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,719 Speaker 1: hype or something, you know what I mean. I'm sure 1349 01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,240 Speaker 1: you really can identify with that as being like you've 1350 01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:58,680 Speaker 1: been in the spotlight for a long time. Yeah, gosh, 1351 01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:03,599 Speaker 1: I'm like. But interesting thing that I find and and 1352 01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:08,559 Speaker 1: something I'm really working on is the more spotlight is 1353 01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,080 Speaker 1: on you, the more people assume you just get loved 1354 01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:15,360 Speaker 1: all the time. And lots of people really don't like that, 1355 01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:17,800 Speaker 1: and so lots of people want to come at you 1356 01:23:17,880 --> 01:23:20,120 Speaker 1: to be like, I'm going to make sure you're not 1357 01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:22,639 Speaker 1: into your own hype so much, and you're like, wow, 1358 01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:27,599 Speaker 1: so I'm really things are just very abusive here because 1359 01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, lots and lots and lots of people assume, well, 1360 01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:34,880 Speaker 1: everyone else compliments you, So I'm not going to and 1361 01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:39,280 Speaker 1: it is a strange. You just realize that people have 1362 01:23:39,360 --> 01:23:42,920 Speaker 1: a desire to poke at somebody, and it's really easy 1363 01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:45,920 Speaker 1: to poke at somebody you don't know. And I'm sure 1364 01:23:46,280 --> 01:23:48,640 Speaker 1: you know plenty of this too, as a as a 1365 01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,760 Speaker 1: person who has been you know, so public and as 1366 01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:55,839 Speaker 1: a woman who publicly has opinions and likes herself the horror, 1367 01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:00,240 Speaker 1: So I I think for me, it's also about trying 1368 01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:04,160 Speaker 1: to figure out some boundaries and it it really reached 1369 01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:09,240 Speaker 1: a fever pitch after the insurrection for me, and I 1370 01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:13,720 Speaker 1: turned my comments off. They're just off. My friends can 1371 01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:17,000 Speaker 1: comment on my stuff, but strangers can't anymore. And I 1372 01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:19,800 Speaker 1: will say I miss it. I missed the dialogue, I 1373 01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:22,840 Speaker 1: missed the really interesting stuff. But what I don't miss 1374 01:24:22,920 --> 01:24:28,080 Speaker 1: is getting um, you know, bought swatted by like bright 1375 01:24:28,160 --> 01:24:32,479 Speaker 1: bart people. I had to set a boundary there, and 1376 01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:37,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting because with boundaries come some loss, but they're 1377 01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:43,640 Speaker 1: important and so yeah, trying to figure out how to 1378 01:24:44,640 --> 01:24:50,200 Speaker 1: how to exist in my actual reality and contribute in 1379 01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:54,639 Speaker 1: whatever positive way I might be able to while putting 1380 01:24:54,720 --> 01:24:59,200 Speaker 1: up some boundaries to the not real world of fame 1381 01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:03,040 Speaker 1: and the expect patitions of strangers and and things that 1382 01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:06,479 Speaker 1: just aren't based on anything that actually matters for my life, 1383 01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,800 Speaker 1: for mental health. That's that's a work in progress for 1384 01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:13,559 Speaker 1: me too. Yeah, I think it's really interesting. I really 1385 01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:18,720 Speaker 1: dropped that story for uh, like this idea that celebrities 1386 01:25:18,800 --> 01:25:22,160 Speaker 1: or people in the spotlight like all their problems are gone, 1387 01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:26,439 Speaker 1: Like we we just have this assumption, and then you know, 1388 01:25:26,680 --> 01:25:31,040 Speaker 1: if anyone speaks out about it, then it's it's like 1389 01:25:31,080 --> 01:25:35,160 Speaker 1: they're ungrateful or you know, oh poor, you like in 1390 01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,080 Speaker 1: your you know that tone. And I I'm just like, 1391 01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:42,760 Speaker 1: not only does this harm people like that are in 1392 01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:46,280 Speaker 1: the public eye that are giving us incredible art, it 1393 01:25:46,360 --> 01:25:52,200 Speaker 1: also harms the person saying that because it's like you 1394 01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:56,559 Speaker 1: feel that deep down against yourself like that, because I 1395 01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:58,559 Speaker 1: look at that and I'm like, okay, walk that through. 1396 01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:04,320 Speaker 1: Now you think you've actually given something power to dictate 1397 01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:08,600 Speaker 1: your own happiness. And so you're saying once you get X, 1398 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,800 Speaker 1: Y and Z, everything will be solved, and that's what 1399 01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:15,799 Speaker 1: I'm projecting onto this person. And it's like, so actually, 1400 01:26:15,840 --> 01:26:20,240 Speaker 1: this is a cycle that nobody is really winning. And 1401 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:22,640 Speaker 1: and like I think it's just a harmful culture that 1402 01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:28,320 Speaker 1: we've created with that where just making this outright assumption like, oh, 1403 01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,240 Speaker 1: if you have money and fame and you're on my TV, 1404 01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:37,760 Speaker 1: then you must be so happy and perfect you never 1405 01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:44,040 Speaker 1: have problems. It's like we're definitely expanding that viewpoint, but 1406 01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,679 Speaker 1: not enough, I don't think, because that's our core value 1407 01:26:48,720 --> 01:26:51,960 Speaker 1: and belief system in this country then that we believe 1408 01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:56,880 Speaker 1: that if you have these milestone moments, then nothing will 1409 01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,400 Speaker 1: ever touch you again. And there's no you can never 1410 01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:02,559 Speaker 1: have a problem them, you don't have real problems. And 1411 01:27:02,640 --> 01:27:05,479 Speaker 1: so what is that creating in your own life too? 1412 01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:09,200 Speaker 1: Like that's that's a weird that's a weird dynamic that 1413 01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:11,720 Speaker 1: you're in a weird story that you're telling yourself, but 1414 01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:15,599 Speaker 1: we're all telling but this is like internalized. Yeah wow 1415 01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,760 Speaker 1: is that making sense? Yeah, it's so well put. I mean, 1416 01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:20,920 Speaker 1: you're you're really hitting the nail on the head and 1417 01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:26,200 Speaker 1: and I think it. Yeah. Then it creates a another 1418 01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:29,360 Speaker 1: interesting layer whereby any person who is perceived to have 1419 01:27:29,439 --> 01:27:35,080 Speaker 1: status or power if they attempt to do good, also 1420 01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:37,120 Speaker 1: gets yelled at and told well, you don't know anything 1421 01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:40,400 Speaker 1: about what these people go through. And it's like, hey, 1422 01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:44,519 Speaker 1: I worked retail too, like me wanting things to be 1423 01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:48,600 Speaker 1: better for you know the cruise on my shows or 1424 01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:53,680 Speaker 1: the folks working minimum wage jobs do not want me 1425 01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:55,280 Speaker 1: to use my platform for that? What do you what 1426 01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:57,040 Speaker 1: do you want me to do? Like sell T shirts? 1427 01:27:57,080 --> 01:27:59,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a tricky thing, and I think 1428 01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:02,519 Speaker 1: you're right. I think it is an expression of pain 1429 01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:06,760 Speaker 1: more than anything, because we're just mad that anybody else 1430 01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:10,400 Speaker 1: seems to be getting listened to. I don't actually think 1431 01:28:10,400 --> 01:28:12,400 Speaker 1: it's about this stuff. I think it's that so many 1432 01:28:12,479 --> 01:28:18,320 Speaker 1: people feel unheard. So there is a real wound when 1433 01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:22,599 Speaker 1: we perceive that other people get listened to and we don't, 1434 01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:27,880 Speaker 1: and that that makes me the thing I love to 1435 01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:31,200 Speaker 1: do most. The reason I created this show is to 1436 01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:36,600 Speaker 1: be in deep, intimate conversation, to listen to people. And 1437 01:28:36,600 --> 01:28:41,280 Speaker 1: and when I see the rage at others being listened to, 1438 01:28:41,439 --> 01:28:43,600 Speaker 1: it just really makes me want to double down on 1439 01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:50,080 Speaker 1: deep listening. Wow. Wow, that's so well put. I go. 1440 01:28:50,280 --> 01:28:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm gonna have to process that later. I'm 1441 01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:57,640 Speaker 1: gonna have to think about that journal on that you 1442 01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:01,040 Speaker 1: left me with many things to us? Is today my friend? 1443 01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:03,840 Speaker 1: I literally I I just know that when we wrap 1444 01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:05,519 Speaker 1: this up, I'm going to get back on with my 1445 01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:07,559 Speaker 1: producers and they're gonna be like, you have never been 1446 01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,720 Speaker 1: so scatterbrained in an interview, like because I just was 1447 01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:12,840 Speaker 1: so excited to talk to you. I was like, oh 1448 01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:14,280 Speaker 1: my god, and then this, and then I thought about this, 1449 01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:15,479 Speaker 1: and is it weird if I tell her that I 1450 01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:17,000 Speaker 1: read this article and then I took notes, and then 1451 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:19,720 Speaker 1: I had this question like, oh my god, you're you're 1452 01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:25,720 Speaker 1: a deer for putting up with um love me who 1453 01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:28,800 Speaker 1: followed it. I followed it so well. I was like, 1454 01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:30,960 Speaker 1: I'm so glad. Yes, I got it. I got it. 1455 01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:33,600 Speaker 1: I'm so glad. I mean, for thirty nine years I 1456 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,719 Speaker 1: thought I was a cancer. Here we are. I'm thrilled. 1457 01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm a tourist moon it makes sense. But I also 1458 01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:46,240 Speaker 1: I'm like Gemini son, this this comes out definitely, it 1459 01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,599 Speaker 1: appears there. It is. You're like to trains of thought 1460 01:29:49,600 --> 01:29:53,120 Speaker 1: all the time, and yet you get it done right. 1461 01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,640 Speaker 1: I love that. Definitely, there's a way to reconcile it 1462 01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:01,240 Speaker 1: kind of Oh, Jamie, thank you so much. You're so welcome. 1463 01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:01,760 Speaker 1: Thank you