1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: host Elisa Donovan. 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, Elisa Donovan here and this is Killer Thriller. Okay, Wow, 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 2: am I excited for today's episode. Today we are talking 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 2: about the Lacy Peterson case through the eyes of the 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 2: ultimate insider and someone who's built a career defending people 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: the public has already judged for a little review. On 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: Christmas Eve two thousand and two, Lacy Peterson, eight months pregnant, 9 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: vanished from her home in Modesto, California. What followed was 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: a case that gripped the country, built largely on circumstantial 11 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: evidence and a husband many believed was hiding something from 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: the very start. More than twenty years later, it still 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 2: sparks debate about guilt, fairness, and what justice really looks like. 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 2: And that is where today's guest comes in. Mark Garrigos 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: was Scott Peterson's defense attorney and is one of the 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: most high profile lawyers in the country. Hi. 17 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 3: Mark, thank you so much for doing this today. 18 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: I know you're extraordinarily busy and I'm really honored to 19 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: speak with you today. 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on. 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: Okay, today, We're going to start with obviously speaking about 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: Scott Peterson in this case. 23 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 3: So this is obviously a case that people feel. 24 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: Very strongly about and continue to and it's still making 25 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 2: the news today. So first of all, I want to 26 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: ask when you first met Scott, what was your impression 27 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 2: of him? 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: I was very favorably impressed. But actually before I met Scott, 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: I met his late mother, who Jackie, who I adored. 30 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: I've instantly had an affinity for her, and she actually 31 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: she and her husband Lee had called me up and 32 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: they were kind of excoriating me, if you will, because 33 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: of made and what I said to them was at 34 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: the time, actually I didn't say to them, but I 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: said on TV is there are a lot of guys 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: in state prison on a lot less evidence than the 37 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: bodies showing up at the place where your alibi was. 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: They came in, they still wanted to meet, and I 39 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: met and Jackie back then, I'll never forget, had a 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 1: oxygen tank which. 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 3: She wore right, yes, they remember you. 42 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: See a lot of people being her pulling it up 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: at both Modesto and San Mateo. And I asked her 44 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: about it, and I said, what's the issue, and she said, well, 45 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: the doctors, I've got a pulmonary issue, and the doctors 46 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: tell me that I've only got six months to live. 47 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: Basically changed doctors. And I thought, with that kind of 48 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: an indefatigable attitude that I would I went up and 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: I met Scott who was being held in custody. Was 50 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: taken with him, and against virtually everybody's advice again to 51 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: take that it was a no win situation, but I 52 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: took the case anything. 53 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: Wait, so you say you're taken with him, meaning he 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: did you feel that he was innocent or you had 55 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: compassionately what was the sense? 56 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to convey to people who weren't 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: in the midst of it twenty five years ago. It's 58 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: amazing twenty three years Yeah, just the prejudgment rate of 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: presumption of guilt, it was. It was like nothing I 60 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: had ever seen. And the I remember talking to my father, 61 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: who was my partner, and he kind of said to me, words, 62 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: it still ring. If you're worried about what people think, 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: then you're in the wrong line of work. And he 64 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: was a expert, and I thought that that rang true 65 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: to me. And then what really kind of stuck with 66 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: me was when he was arrested and kind of marched in, 67 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: if you will, with the officers into the jail. The 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: surrounding crowd and the celebratory nature of it reminded me 69 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: kind of of the Jim Crow era, and I've always 70 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: been a huge fan to kill a mockingbird and resonated 71 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 1: with me in a sense, and everybody was there. Fast 72 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: forward to jury selection, and I'll never forget there was 73 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: a truck, a trailer truck with giant pictures of Scott 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: in his jumpsuit with vote. It was a radio station, 75 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: Vote Man or Monster, and it was shouse during jury selection, 76 00:04:54,640 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 1: and I bitterly complained about it. And as the late 77 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: Judge Deluki, who presided over the trials, said, where do 78 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: you want me to send this case to a capsule? 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: To circle the. 80 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: Earth right right right? Like where would he have gotten 81 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: a fair trial? Is that the sense that it really 82 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 2: was the court of public opinion had already decided. 83 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: Don't take this the wrong way. But I've said this 84 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: often that when I was handling that case for basically 85 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: two years of my life, I used to go to 86 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: the gym every morning, and inevitably, a young white professional 87 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: woman would recognize me and say you represent Scott Peterson, 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: and then inevitably she would ask me a series of questions, 89 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: how do you explain this? And I would explain it, 90 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: how do you explain that? And I would explain it, 91 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: and I would debunk every single one of them, and 92 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: then almost unfailingly, they would default too. Well, I had 93 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: an ex boyfriend like him, and I can just see 94 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: where he would have done it, and it's get past that. 95 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: And that was one of the things I think that 96 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 1: once in the media there was that picture of him 97 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: and Amber together and then the picture of Lacey at 98 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: a Christmas party yep, very pregnant, sitting in a chair, 99 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: and when you judge the post Thos, it hits at 100 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: a level that you just can't get past. 101 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 2: How do you explain him lying to Amber that his 102 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: wife was already missing before she. 103 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 3: Officially was missing. 104 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: So one of the things that one did not I 105 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: think resonate as much with people as this one, the 106 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: one where after she went missing, he was on tapes 107 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: talking to Amber, and on those tapes they had recorded him. 108 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: Because the stuff that was non recorded we could deal 109 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: with because it appeared to be kind of formulated, but 110 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: you had to deal with the stuff that was on 111 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: tape and what people don't remember. I remember it obviously 112 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: because I was involved in roughly two thousand and two 113 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: thousand and one, Chandra Levy had also gone missing. 114 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: Is yes, that's right. 115 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: I represented the congressman who was Gary Condit, and Gary 116 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 1: Condit was the congressman from Modesta where this took place. 117 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: So it was to say it, well, the wall, it 118 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: was unbelievable. In fact, the only thing that two years, 119 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: three years prior had a clipped the Gary Kanda Chandra 120 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,679 Speaker 1: Levy's story from the tabloid and cable and everything else 121 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: was nine to eleven. That's what knocked it off. The 122 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: cable cars, Oh my gosh, right, of course. And by 123 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: the way, I was doing nightly cable shows with Barbara Olsen, 124 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: Barbara Olsen who was married to Ted Olson, the Solicitor 125 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: General who died in one of the planes on nine 126 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: to eleven. She was flying away. We were going to 127 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: do a show together, and that's what knocked Gary Conda 128 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: off the the kind of the newswaves. But what people 129 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: also tend to forget is that as soon as it 130 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: was reported that there was an affair, as soon as 131 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: the police that was it. Nobody wanted to listen to 132 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: anything else. I remember having my investigator tell me, and 133 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: he came up with, look, it's obvious to me. There's 134 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: a guy who's in custody for knocking women who were 135 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: jogging in the park there who were wearing headphones or 136 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: back then they called him something else, and that was 137 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: the logical culprit if you will. And I remember saying, 138 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: once the snow defrosts, I bet you. Unfortunately, we're gonna 139 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: see the end. We're gonna see this as opposed to 140 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: back then Dominic Dunn had his theories about that she 141 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: was sold into white slavery and dropped in the ocean 142 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: on the way to Saudi Arabia. I mean, it was 143 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: crazy town. So anyway, Scott, having seen this, knew that 144 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: the minute that Amber surface, he knew enough that that 145 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: would be it game over. Nobody would search for Lacy anymore. 146 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: So he was trying in his mind to clearly damp 147 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: down Amber while the search went on. But those tapes 148 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: were bad because anyway you look at it, he was 149 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: he was lying to her that he was in Paris 150 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: and there was the fireworks, and I think that was 151 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: very difficult for some of the jurors to get over. 152 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: But also remember with you know, little fun facts and 153 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: as you can tell, this is not the first time 154 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: I've discussed. 155 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: Now I feel you're an expert on this. 156 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: Jury was out for seven days. That jury was hung. 157 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: The fact I'll never forget. On day seven, at the 158 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: prosecution's best, they kept removing jurors that were voting not guilty. 159 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: We got to the four person of the jury, a 160 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: guy that I nicknamed doctor Lawyer. Doctor Lawyer was a 161 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: highly educated obviously he was both an MD and a JD. 162 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: And he came back in and the judge had not 163 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: sequestered the jury during the trial, but he sequestered them 164 00:10:54,840 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: during deliberations, which provided all kinds of problems because they 165 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: were at each other's throats and there was a hung jury. 166 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: And then the four person. Mind you, the four person 167 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: comes in and says, I no longer feel like this 168 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: is all on the record, you can check the transcript. 169 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: I no longer feel like I can deliver a fair verdict. 170 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: I feel threatened, and I feel like people are voting 171 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: just to satisfy what the community wants. He's so, wow, record, 172 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm objecting. I'm asking for a mistrial. The judge not 173 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: only doesn't grant the mistrial, he asked the four person, well, 174 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: are you afraid that you can't go on and deliberate anymore? 175 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: And says yes, I feel threatened, and they judge removes 176 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,839 Speaker 1: him and puts in a new juror Strawberry Shortcake, who 177 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: has their own issues, and they get verdict, you know, 178 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: in no time flat, after seven days of deliberations where 179 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: they were hung Wait. 180 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: I no see this as very interesting. 181 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: As a person who followed this whole trial, I did 182 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: not know that. I wouldn't even think that would be legal. 183 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 2: I didn't realize that that was allowed. 184 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: Let me give you a couple other fun facts. Number one, 185 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: it was a death penalty case. Okay, got it. During 186 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: jury selection, the judge would ask people, can you you 187 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: know there's a death penalty case? Can you vote for 188 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: the death penalty? People would answer on questionneers, I'm against 189 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: the death penalty. The judge would excuse them, and I 190 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: kept screaming, Judge, you can't just excuse them. You got 191 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: to ask them. If you tell them that this is 192 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: the law, can they follow the law. You got to 193 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: do the next question, Judge, wouldn't do it. No, I'm 194 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: not wasting time. We've got sixteen hundred people. Everybody thinks 195 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: he's guilty. I can't waste all my time on this. 196 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. A unanimous, unanimous California Supreme Court appointed 197 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: by both parties reversed the penalty phase the death penalty 198 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: because he used the wrong standard that was not the 199 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 1: right standard. What I will never never get over is 200 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: they didn't reverse the conviction because one of the reasons 201 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: prosecutors use the debt pedally traditionally is you get more 202 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: pro prosecution jurors. They tend to believe the prosecution, believe 203 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: law enforcement. They don't follow the law in terms of 204 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: having treating all witnesses the same blah blah blah, So 205 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: they tilt towards the prosecution. The California Supreme Court, rather 206 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: than reverse that, set it back for further hearings and 207 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: things of that nature. And subsequently, that's why we're in 208 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: the ritz of Habeas corpus, not we, but the La 209 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: Innocence Project. 210 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: Now, so that's what right this is you're speaking about 211 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: most recently, this the efforts to So where does it 212 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:54,839 Speaker 2: stand now? 213 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 3: Are you and are you representing him, I'm not currently No. 214 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: In fact, I know the reason, and I didn't take 215 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: the appeals because it's actually the only murder case I've 216 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: ever had where and I've tried, I can't tell you 217 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: how many murder cases, the only one who were special 218 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: circumstance was found in death penalty imposed. And I said, no, 219 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: you got to be able to attack my performance, and 220 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: so I'll get another lawyer. And he had what I 221 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: think was probably the premier a pelot lawyer in California 222 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: who's Cliff Gardner. And Cliff ably convinced unanimous California Supreme 223 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: Court to reverse the penalties phase. So he's now facing 224 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: life without and hopefully somebody in the Court of Appeal 225 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: where the habeas is right now, reverses that and he 226 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: gets the new trial he deserves. Wow, you're the one 227 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: who asked, by the way, let me tell you just 228 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: how crazy this time was. Mind you, this is twenty 229 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: three years ago, twenty two years ago. Do you know 230 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: that when we lost, CNN actually did a poll, an 231 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: online poll, and a friend of mine put it into 232 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: a snow glow. Does Mark Derrett still have a career? 233 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: And you know, public, the public voted two to one 234 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: that I did. So the WOW just knows what they're 235 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: talking about. 236 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 3: I mean, let me tell you something. 237 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: Of all the things that I thought I might sort 238 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: of discover in this conversation, I never thought I might 239 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: start to think that maybe he's innocent now. 240 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: But let me tell you something that I would tell 241 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: anybody else. And I don't say this for every client, 242 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: but I don't think anybody knew the evidence in real 243 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: time better than I did. I certainly don't say that 244 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: that's the case after twenty something years, But in real 245 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: time I knew this evidence. I knew it inside out. 246 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: And other than Pat Harris, who tried the case with me, 247 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: I don't think, and to some degree a lesser degree, 248 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: Matt Dalton, who since died. I don't think anybody spent 249 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: more time in real time who knew the evidence and 250 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: was dealing with Scott and say this guy is not 251 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: good for it. I just it's And when people ask me, 252 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: what how do you sleep at night defending people that 253 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: you know are guilty, I say, I sleep like a baby. 254 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: Then where I lose sleep and for years had to 255 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: undergo alcohol therapy, was when I believe somebody is innocent, 256 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: because that to me, it's like a doctor. I've represented 257 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: many doctors over the years, and they when they lose 258 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: a case or a human that haunts them for their career. 259 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 2: Right, Well, then why why didn't Scott take the stand? 260 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: And do innocent people ever not take the stand? So 261 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: I guess you're saying that that they do. 262 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: I tell you why I think and why I have 263 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: counseled over the years. I'll give you two examples. Generally, 264 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: if you're in custody and you're in a cement box 265 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 1: every morning, and you're sitting there and you're watching this trial. 266 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: By the way, you have to go through a trial 267 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: to understand just how horrific it is to have people 268 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: say things suggest that basically make you into a monster. 269 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: So you do that, then you've got a whole team 270 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: of prosecutors who are well rested, go home every night's 271 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: sleep and see their loved ones and eat good meals 272 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: and exercise and go to the gym. You're sitting in 273 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: a jail with a six by eight cement cell, and 274 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: it's just it's an unfair fight, so to speak. Again, 275 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: to quote my father, it's a rare case that gets 276 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: better after the people rest and I made the determination. 277 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: And anybody, by the way, who watched that case in 278 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: the courtroom would have told you they had not proven 279 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: their case. People who were there the people because and 280 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: the biggest mistake I made was supporting the prosecution not 281 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 1: wanting cameras in the courtroom. I think it just so 282 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: much got into the ether as to what the endpust was. 283 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: Didn't see that the evidence wasn't that the judge recessed. 284 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: At one point the local columnists and newspaper columns said, 285 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: there is no there there. They were reporting in real 286 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: time anybody who was in that courtroom, and to have 287 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: put him on would have changed six months of trying 288 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: that case where we basically slaughtered all the evidence. And 289 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: I say that purposefully. There was no compelling evidence. We 290 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: don't know when she died, we don't know how she died, 291 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: we don't know where she died. All we know is 292 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: Scott gave an alibi and four months later, five months later, 293 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: that's where Lacy and Connor were found. And by the way, 294 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: four or five months later, really I know that in 295 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: and of itself is somewhat suspect. 296 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 2: It just still feels it seems that anytime he would speak. 297 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously, I don't know how I would feel 298 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: if I were in that situation. It's impossible to know, 299 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:08,640 Speaker 2: but I think what people generally feel like is anything 300 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: he said. He that there was no sort of remorse. 301 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: He never seemed to show any kind of real grief, 302 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 2: shell shocked. 303 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: I never would have. I didn't represent him at the 304 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: time he gave that interview, the one the ABC. Yeah, 305 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: isn't this an Amy rawback? 306 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: Yes? 307 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: Yes, well, Amy in her prior iteration was ABC. I 308 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: always used to joke ABC could really stand for anybody 309 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: but a convict, because they interviews, whether it was Diane 310 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: Sawyer or whoever else those interviews. I can't tell you 311 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,120 Speaker 1: how many times in a courtroom I had to deal 312 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: with an ABC interview of somebody who taped it. Before 313 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: I became the lawyer. What didn't. 314 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: When you meet a client in general, like what are 315 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: you looking for? Are you first thinking I need to 316 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: know this person is really innocent? Or are you looking 317 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: at it like can I argue this case? 318 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 3: Like what do you mix? You decide to work with someone. 319 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: Depends on what stage you're talking about. At certain points 320 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: in my career there were cases still to this day. 321 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: Certain cases are interesting and attractive to me. Certain cases, 322 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: at certain times I feel like there's a reason I 323 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 1: want to represent the person. I give you some examples. Yeah, 324 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: Mike Tyson. When Mike came to me, it was not 325 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 1: for his criminal case. It was because he had a 326 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: bankruptcy case and he could not earn more than an 327 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: IRS and he was mired in this horrible situation. He 328 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: had this wonderful sty does wonderful wife named Kiki. We 329 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: were able to extricate him from there, and I thought 330 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: it was just horrible when it happened to him. People 331 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: had taken advantage and we got him extricated. And you know, 332 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: every time I see him now, I have a little 333 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: modicum of pride. Colin Kaepernick, that was the case. I 334 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: just loved that case. I loved representing Colin. I thought 335 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: the NFL was off base and we got a great result. 336 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: I thought, even though he hasn't played, I could name 337 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: case after case after case. And the one that kind 338 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: of changed the trajectory of my career was during Whitewater, 339 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: taking a case with a woman named Susan mcdoodall, who 340 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: was Bill Clinton's business partnering We tried a case here 341 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: in Santa Monica back in ninety eight one acquittals across 342 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: the board and then promptly went to Little Rock and 343 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: got an acquittal on the obstruction and hung the contempts. 344 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: And so there are certain cases that interest me generally 345 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: when it's the government it beating up on somebody in 346 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: so it's kind of that's part of it. Sometimes money 347 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: makes a difference, sometimes it doesn't. I've represented people probono 348 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: Johnny Cock, as Johnny used to say, or maybe it 349 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: was Sean Holly quoting Johnny. I never know, but I was, 350 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: I represent Ojays and no. 351 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 3: Jays, right right, right? 352 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: Well do you ever separate what you believe personally from 353 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 2: what you argue professionally? 354 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that I can, because a defense 355 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: lawyer has a different ethical obligation than a prosecutor. Prosecutor 356 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: is supposed to seek justice, a defense lawyer is supposed 357 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: to zealously represent their client. If I had a nickel 358 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 1: for every time my client has told me a story 359 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: that I said that doesn't pass the smell test, and 360 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: then press them or cross examine them, and then it 361 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: turns out inevitably that they don't want to tell you 362 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: the real story, because it's more embarrassing than what they're 363 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: accused of. That's generally what I find, oh interesting if 364 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: you don't press the client on certain things. But also 365 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: one of the I have this idiosyncratic nature to it. 366 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: I want to know what the on a criminal case. 367 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: I want to know what the prosecution is before I 368 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: go to my client and start to get into theirs. 369 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 1: I want to see what their universe of facts or 370 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: data is like. 371 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: When you're dealing with these cases that are so high profile, 372 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 2: how much strategy goes into managing the media coverage versus 373 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: the courtroom itself. 374 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: Well, one of the big things is in managing the 375 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: media coverage, but not just the media, it's also if 376 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: it's somebody who's high profile enough that they've got what 377 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: I call the Nickel and dime krav which is the 378 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: ten percent people who manage their career. I'm a one 379 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: off person, drops in for me for some crisis and 380 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: then I'm out. So people who they've got long standing 381 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: relationships with, I'm brought in just kind of as a 382 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: mercenary and some great. 383 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 3: Right right, right? 384 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 2: Do you think do you think that Scott's it's original 385 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 2: case if it was tried today, the outcome would be different. 386 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: I do. I do, But then again, I think I 387 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: would approach certain things differently, and I think I think 388 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: that part of the beauty, so to speak, of citizen 389 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: journalism what I call citizens, is that people are reflexive. 390 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: One of the bright things about where we are right 391 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: now is society is people just don't buy what the 392 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: government is selling. Simply, it's just not I was with 393 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: a judge this morning who I mentioned the FBI, and 394 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: she said, well, the FBI, you know, it's kind of 395 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: that would have been right years ago. 396 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 3: Right, that's so true. 397 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: I didn't even think about that. How all the institutions 398 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: are sort of just questioned a little bit more. 399 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: Well, twenty years ago, legacy media what was then the 400 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: mainstream media. We're basically cheerleaders for the prosecution, and it's 401 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: no longer the case right. 402 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 2: Something on the Menendez Are you involved in their the 403 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: current state? 404 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: I talk with their parole lawyer with great frequency, and 405 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:38,960 Speaker 1: I have a robust texting relationship or tablet relationship with them, 406 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: and I'm hopeful we do. Yeah, And I'm hopeful that 407 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: I've that they get out this year. 408 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 3: I'm hopeful for that too. 409 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: I've got one more question. 410 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 3: Okay, Oh, do you think that your clients always tell 411 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 3: you the truth? 412 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: No, I know they don't. 413 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 3: You know they don't. 414 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: And it goes back to what I just said. Sometimes 415 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: the truth is infinitely more embarrassing than what they're telling, 416 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: which they're what they're accused of. 417 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: So right, you're so wonderful. I really appreciate this time 418 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 2: that you've taken with me. So I'm a big admirer 419 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 2: and I appreciate the work you do. 420 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: So thank you, thank you, Aye Bye.