1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,120 Speaker 1: I hope you're all having a wonderful weekend. I haven't 3 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: talked this morning, That's why my voice is so low, 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: but I wanted to tell you about a fascinating conversation 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: I had yesterday with New York Times journalist Sabrina Tabernisi. 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: I wanted to share it with all of you as 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: the special bonus episode. Sabrina was recently named co host 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: of The Daily and has been covering the war in 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: Ukraine with a series of dispatches that offer a searing 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: glimpse of what life is like. They're right now on 11 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: the front lines, but Sabrina's time in the region extends 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: all the way back to the nineteen nineties, when she 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: was a recent Barner grad and made her way to 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: the countries of freelance journalists. She ended up working as 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 1: a foreign correspondent for The New York Times based in 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: Moscow a few years later. So much of the coverage 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: of the war in Ukraine concentrates on the day to 18 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: day I really wanted to take advantage of Sabrina's rich 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: perspective from living and working in the region for so long. 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: So we dug deep and covered everything from what life 21 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: was like in Russia just after the Wall came down 22 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: and Putin's rise to power to how Russians today perceived 23 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: this war and how things might play out in the 24 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: months ahead. I hope you enjoy our conversation as much 25 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: as I did. Oh and if you hear barking, Sabrina's 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: dog Clementine also made a few appearances. Hi Sabrina, Hi Katie. 27 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: So here we are first and foremost. We have so 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: much to talk about, but I have to say congratulations 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: on being the new co anchor of the Daily How 30 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: jast are you about this? Very excited, so excited. It's um. Yeah, 31 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: it's a medium I've really admired for a very long time, 32 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: and I feel incredibly lucky that The New York Times 33 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: chose me to be one of its voices. So um, 34 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's yeah. It's just it's a it's an 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: area of journalism that they are investing heavily in right now, 36 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's a it's a medium 37 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: that at its best, in some ways, I think is 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: better than print. It's um, you know, it really connects 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: with the part of someone's brain that is that has 40 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: an emotional response to things, and I I think that 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: it is for that reason very powerful. It is so immersive, 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: and yet it is quite different than print. Are you 43 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: concerned about translating your skills as a reporter and a 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: writer into an audio space? Well, yeah, they You are 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: right to point out that they are very different. Um, 46 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: and I am. I am concerned about translating my skills. 47 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I think I've been practicing for quite a 48 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: while since I've been with them on and off, you know, 49 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: really going back to Uh so it's you know, it's 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: it's it's a very different medium. Uh, there are certain 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: things that are the same. I mean in terms of 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: basic journalism. You know, I just spent three weeks in Ukraine, um, 53 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: and that was in some ways kind of me returning 54 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: to my old life and what I used to do. 55 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: I used to spend a lot of time in Russia 56 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: and I spent a lot of time in war zones, 57 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: and this was kind of combining of those two things 58 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: that I'd spent a lot of reporting time on. And 59 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's most basic. You are kind of going 60 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: to people, listening to their stories, trying to reflect back 61 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: some sort of a picture of what is actually happening 62 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: in that place. Um. You know, so fundamentally audio is 63 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: trying to do that as well. But you know, it's 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: just I think for our show, you know, I was 65 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: watching the print reporters do what they do, which is, 66 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: you know, having to can firm lots of things. You know, 67 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: this bombing not bombing, Um, you know what is happening 68 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: all the time all over the country. And I because 69 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: we had you know, we have a show a day, 70 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: we could we picked one big target, uh, and then 71 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: we were doing you know, quite a number of them 72 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: on Ukraine. But I could really take my time and 73 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: step back a little bit and say, Okay, what are 74 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: the emotional notes I want to we want to be 75 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: hitting in this particular episode. We're not. We don't have 76 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: the burden of having to run around confirming every last bombing. 77 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: We can really kind of take our time and pick 78 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: our targets. Um. And you know, and I can spend 79 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: a whole day in a train station talking to kids 80 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: and their moms and really plumbing the depths of that. 81 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: And Matt is something that I really love. I've always 82 00:04:53,160 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 1: liked deeper in journalism and not faster. Um. And more wider. Yeah, 83 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: Like I I like this sort of the narrower lens 84 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: because you get to go deeply into someone, uh, you know, 85 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: give get a sense of the psychology, what you know, 86 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: what is driving that person. I do think a lot 87 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: of the wise come from deep exploration, um, deep inquiry 88 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: and I and I love that about audio. It seems 89 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: singularly focused on that. I agree, And I think by 90 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: telling a specific story and by really digging into the 91 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 1: human emotion, it can be much more effective and reflecting 92 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: the bigger story. Yes, in a way that sort of 93 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: harder factual news can't necessarily convey. Yes, let's talk about 94 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: Ukraine in a moment, But first I want to give 95 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: our listeners and viewers a sense, Sabrina, of your crazy background, 96 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: because I'm sort of like Sabrina grew up in a 97 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: rural tu in western Massachusetts. You picked blueberries in the 98 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: summer to make money, You went to Bernard, and suddenly 99 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: you decide, Hey, I want to move to Russia. What 100 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: up with that, Sabrina? So I think, you know, in 101 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, I think it was it sprung 102 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: from my coming from a small place and feeling like 103 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: I wanted very badly to see the world. Um. I 104 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: didn't grow up in a big city. I grew up 105 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: in a town of people. My eighth grade class had 106 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: twelve people in it. And for the longest time, really 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 1: as early as I can remember, I wanted to travel. 108 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: I wanted to see the world. UM. I wanted to 109 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: be able to experience what life was like in different 110 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: places for different people. So yeah, So my first stop 111 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: was a big city in the U. S. So that 112 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: was New York, and that's where I went to college. 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: And then in college, I had to take a language requirement. 114 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: It was something that I had to do. And I 115 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: my my my other side of my family came from 116 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: Italy in the nineteen fifties. Um, so there are a 117 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: lot of cousins who were Italian speaking, and I thought 118 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to do something different. Um. And it was 119 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: nine and the Wall was falling and the Soviet Union 120 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: was on the verge of collapse, and there was a 121 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 1: lot happening in Russia, and so I took Russian really 122 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: kind of on a lark. I thought, different alphabet, you know, 123 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: something different, this is where you know, there's some history 124 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: happening in this part of the world at this point 125 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: and Um, yeah, and that's what and and so I 126 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: took that as my language. Um, I have a pretty 127 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: good year for languages. So I got pretty good at it. 128 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: And and then I went after graduating, I guess when 129 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: I think on my around my twenty four birthday, I went. 130 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: I moved to eastern Russia, to a city called Magadan, 131 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: which is on the eastern coast. If you know the 132 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: risk board, it's kind of um on the under arm 133 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: of the Kumshaka Peninsula. It's and it's under it's under there. 134 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: It's most people don't know it, but it's very far. 135 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of above. It's it's it's, it's it's in 136 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: the far East. That was pretty brave of you, Sabrina, 137 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: to just kind of, I mean, to go to eastern 138 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: Russia at twenty four, Did you go by yourself? So 139 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: when I first went, you know, I was calling around 140 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: after I graduated from college, let me want to go 141 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: to Russia with me? No, No, I didn't. I didn't 142 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: particularly need anyone to go with me, but I did 143 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 1: a job, so I was kind of calling around. You know, 144 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,119 Speaker 1: those were the days of faxes. You would still fax 145 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: your resume place. I was faxing my resume to like 146 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: law firms and places like that, and yeah, there wasn't 147 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: No one was hiring me. I mean probably understandably. I 148 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: was someone with basically no skills, UM who was faxing 149 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: them there my resume, and I called at some point Alaska, UM, 150 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: some nonprofits up there, and then some national parks up there. 151 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: And then at some point one of the national parks, 152 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: a big um um national forest called chugat To National 153 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Forest told me that they had some educators who were 154 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: going to Russia on a summer to teach in a 155 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: summer exchange program for high school kids, and they and 156 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: they needed a translator. They weren't paying, but they would 157 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: pay the way, and I thought, oh, that sounds great. 158 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: So I went and did that and that was it 159 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: was I think the summer of ninety four. So I 160 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: spent a couple of months with twenty high school kids, UM, 161 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: a couple of Russian teachers, and then this American teacher. 162 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: UM in a very remote place of UM. It's a 163 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: place called Magadon Oblis, so it's it's the region of 164 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: of Magadon again. I mean, it's an eight hour flight 165 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: from Moscow, so it's very it's very remote even for Russians. UM. 166 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: And then I on my way back to the US 167 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: at the end of that summer, I met someone who 168 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: was UM working on a U. S. A i D. 169 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: Funded program in the city of Magadon, and she said, 170 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: you know, we're looking for someone to kind of help 171 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: organize things and be a bookkeeper and do some administrative 172 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: things for our program. Would you be interested? And I 173 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: said yes, So I I stayed. So I was in 174 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: Mogadon for three years. And then you did you move 175 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: another place in Russia? Yeah, so I so in nine seven, 176 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: so that in n I moved to Moscow UM. And 177 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: that was you know, in that era. Yelson of course 178 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: was president. Still it was kind of the wild nineties. 179 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: They were having all these currency collapses and and you know, 180 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: it was very very difficult time for Russians. UM. The 181 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: stock market was going wild and there were a lot 182 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: of sort of foreign investors in Russia. UM. And then 183 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: the year after I began, they had a big default 184 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: and currency collapse in and that was sort of the 185 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: beginning of the end of the era of the nineteen 186 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: nineties sort of wild free but very economically painful for Russians. 187 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: Kind of democratic era. The people came to it, so 188 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: see it with just misery and poverty and lack of 189 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: control over their lives. Um and I so I was 190 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: working at Bloomberg, which is you know, as you know, 191 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: a financial newswire. Uh just actually just when they just 192 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,359 Speaker 1: started their bureau um and I worked there from nineties 193 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: seven and to two thousand when I and then I 194 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: started The Times in two thousands. So so yeah, so 195 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: I was I was basically working in journalism from on. 196 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 1: So you were a freelance writer in Russia in the 197 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: late nineties after going there in the early nineties to 198 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: to do various things in a remote part of Russia. 199 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: But when you got to Moscow, what was the what 200 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: was the vibe? Like, I mean, how what was it 201 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: like being in Moscow in what and with this whole 202 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: adjustment to this new way of life for many Russians, right, Yeah, 203 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 1: it was very um it was different than Magadan Magadon, 204 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: you know, of course was this very remote place even 205 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: for Russians, And it was very um. There was sort 206 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: of the sense that people had kind of become stranded 207 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: out there. It was very expensive to live out there. 208 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: After the Soviet Union, collapsed and all of the kind 209 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: of price supports and the sort of the subsidizations of 210 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 1: life out there fell away. It was expensive to buy groceries, 211 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: it was expensive to heat houses, and you know, people 212 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: didn't have the money to do those things. So it 213 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: was very difficult time living out there for a lot 214 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: of people in Moscow. Coming to Moscow, I mean, you know, 215 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: it was such a wild time in a lot of ways. 216 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: It was you know, they were sort of mafia stories, 217 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: and there was the privatization going on in which you know, 218 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 1: a small handful of of um of people were sort 219 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,199 Speaker 1: of fixing the privatization process and making you know, coming 220 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,319 Speaker 1: away with fortunes. While while most was going to say, 221 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: would those be the oligarchs, Yeah, they were the early ones, 222 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,239 Speaker 1: So they were the you know, the nine nineties oligarchs. 223 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: Then of course, there was a whole other iteration after 224 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: Putin came to power and you know, established his own 225 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: networks and had his own kind of groups of people 226 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: getting rich off the state. But these were the you know, 227 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: it was it was Freedman, it was Hutarkovski, it was 228 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: a Gramovich. Um. You know, some of these names are 229 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 1: still around, but a lot of them, aren't Kusinski. He 230 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: had the big media empire. But I remember there being 231 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: this kind of real free, willing sense of foreigners coming 232 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: and people making a lot of money. The stock market 233 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: was going crazy. Was like, oh my goodness, this capitalism thing. 234 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: Everybody's kind of into it. But really for the average 235 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: Russian it was just a very painful, frightening time because people, 236 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, became impoverished. Um, they weren't getting pensions, they 237 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: weren't getting salaries. Um. You know, there there was this 238 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: kind of saying at um. You know, the word democracy 239 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: in Russian it became this kind of curse word in 240 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: a way. Um, And you know, people associated that the 241 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: period of the nineties, it was a very searing period. 242 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: They associated with loss of control, you know, poverty and 243 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: and and real fear that they were not going to 244 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: have food the next day, terrible growing pains, it sounds like. 245 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: And did the word democracy become less of a sort 246 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: of four letter word eventually, I mean, I don't think so, 247 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, I think it's I think it's I think 248 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: Russia is still finding its way and trying to understand 249 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: what it is and what it wants. And you know, now, 250 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: of course, with the war. Um and, with Putin in 251 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: power so many years, you know, it's um. I think 252 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: it's pretty confused. UM. I think that it never really 253 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: had much of a muscle memory of the democracy anyway, 254 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: So it was always kind of an abstract notion. Uh. 255 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, I think we sort of imposed that on them, 256 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: that we think that they We thought they must have 257 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: wanted that because we have that, and of course they 258 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: would want to be like us, because our system is 259 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: very good. I think that you know, we all are 260 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: now experiencing a degree of um seeing democracy and what 261 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: it means in a new way, including in the US. 262 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: UM with the past couple of years. But but you know, 263 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: in those days, I think it was just a very 264 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: frightening time for a lot of Russians. Um and and 265 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: and I think in a lot of ways explains the 266 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: rise of Putin in two thousand. Why people we're so 267 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: receptive to this man that I think, you know, from 268 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: the outside, people look at look at him and say, 269 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: why would anybody want that? Um And if you experienced 270 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: Russia in the nine nineties as the ordinary Russian, did 271 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: you understand exactly why you would want that? You want 272 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: someone who's going to bring order. You want someone who's 273 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: going to make sure that your pen is paid. You 274 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: want someone who's going to make sure that those rich 275 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: guys who stole everything after seventy years of this communist 276 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: telling you that it was property of the people, realizing 277 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: it was property of only seven people. You wanted those 278 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: guys not to get away with murder. Um. You know, 279 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: you wanted some pretty practical things, I think. And but 280 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: power in Russia is um, you know, is absolute, and 281 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: Putin came in, took it and consolidated, and you know, 282 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: and essentially kind of recreated, um, this very corrupt system 283 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: that that had existed before. It's just a different set 284 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: of people coming up more with New York Times journalists 285 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: and The Daily co host Sabrina TAVERNESSI, you were a 286 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: reporter for the New York Times. You started at the 287 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: Times in two thousand, the same year Putin came into power. 288 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: Did you ever have any interactions with Putin or what 289 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: were your impressions of him, um, other than he was 290 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: obviously a strong leader that people were looking to to, 291 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, restore order and and give them h 292 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: I guess a baseline quality of life. You know, I 293 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: never was one on one with him. Um. I've been 294 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: to a couple of his you know, he had he 295 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: would have big kind of end of the year press conferences. UM. 296 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: Been to a couple of those. I you know, I've 297 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: interviewed lots and lots of Russians who really love him. UM. 298 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: So I understood his power. Uh, if not kind of 299 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: you know, If not through my own mind, certainly through 300 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: the experience of Russians who were experiencing him. Um. But 301 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: you know, I I remember clearly, I remember clearly the 302 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: night that he was elevated. It was it was y 303 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: s u k. It was it was New Year's Eve 304 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: from two thousand and you know, all of the American 305 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: news organizations, all of the nitors had tasked them with 306 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: basically calling every single nuclear power plant across Russia's eight 307 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: time zones because they all thought that there was gonna 308 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: be a nuclear meltdown, because like the computers were all 309 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: going to go in the fritz and there's another American 310 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: on the phone. Will you talk to her? Oh? God, like, no, 311 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: we're fine. Our computer didn't, you know. So we were 312 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: all kind of like rolling our eyes at this assignment. 313 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: And then that night Yelton abdicated yelled, since made this 314 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: unbelievable speech in which he said, you know, I thought 315 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: we were going to have this great leap to some bright, 316 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: civilized future, and we got stuck in the middle. And 317 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: and I'm and I'm sorry, um, and I am installing 318 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: this guy, Vladimir Putin, who has been my deputy prime minister, 319 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: to run the country. And they will be an election 320 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: in May and which you will decide whether you agree 321 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: that he should be president or not. And in May 322 00:18:54,600 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: he won overwhelmingly. And Harry is twenty two years later, 323 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about Ukraine. But I do 324 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: want to ask you another question about Russia, because twenty 325 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: years ago, Sabrina, you wrote Russians quote miss feeling like 326 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: a great superpower, and they've had to swallow this bitter 327 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: pill of being weak. So I'm wondering, as we transition 328 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: this conversation into Ukraine, do you think that sort of 329 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: inferiority complex somehow permeated the Russian psyche and might have 330 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: contributed to this invasion of of Ukraine that that started 331 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: on February. So I think so there are two layers, right, 332 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I think certainly for Putin, I think the 333 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: Putin always saw the Soviet collapse as a humiliating tragedy. Um, 334 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: there was not a and Albright just died and we 335 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: were looking at and I was reading through her oh bit, 336 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: and she said that she was the first American officials 337 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: actually meet with Putin as after he became president in 338 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and she said she was left with the 339 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: impression that he he claimed to understand why the wall 340 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: fell and why that was happening, but at the same 341 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: time she was she had the impression that he felt 342 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: embarrassed about the Soviet collapse and did see that as 343 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: a tragedy. Um and weakness, humiliation, which I think is 344 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: such a good word because it's so visceral, right, It's powerful, 345 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: it's powerful, it's a driver of a lot of things, 346 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: I think, particularly in conflict. Um. So I think that 347 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: for him it was always, you know, this was always 348 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: the case. I mean, if we remember back um to, 349 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: one of the first things he was really known for 350 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 1: in the Russian government was that was the second Chechen War. 351 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: Of course, so he kind of came in, guns blazing 352 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: in to really put down uh for a second time, 353 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: this kind of independence movement in this little republic that 354 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: was that's in the south of Russia called Chichnia um 355 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: quite brutally um in In in a way, you know, 356 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: is uh sort of a similar playbook that they're using 357 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: right now in Ukraine. But but I think so, I 358 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 1: think that Putin as a leader was really animated by 359 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: that idea, you know, the humiliation and the kind of 360 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: sense that Russia was somehow sort of less than and 361 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: not not had had given up something that was rightfully 362 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: that rightfully belonged to it, and that this was this 363 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: was uh, you know, this was a sorry, that's okay, 364 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: that that that it like it had been cheated out 365 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: of something that rightfully belonged to it, and that there 366 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: was there was a sense of a real sense of 367 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: grievance in that Well, it's hard to go from a 368 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: superpower two less than right and if you think, you know, 369 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: even even in the US, we have we we we 370 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: understand now this sentiment, right that that make that make 371 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: America great again? That that you know, when I first 372 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: came back to the United States from Russia, um well, 373 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: from being abroad in and there was the kind of 374 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: the beginning of I'd see the very early Trump stuff, 375 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 1: you know, the tea Party was starting to happen, and 376 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: I recognized a lot of what I remember in Russia 377 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: from the nineteen nineties. You know, if only the factory 378 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: could come back, if only, you know, we could have 379 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: what we had, you know, in the nineteen fifties and 380 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, if only we could go back. That 381 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,479 Speaker 1: was when times were you know, simpler and better, and 382 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: we could rely on having our salaries. And it was 383 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 1: a time when they, you know, perhaps they weren't entirely 384 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: able to you know, be free quote unquote as we 385 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: would understand it, but they knew that they could buy 386 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: the sausage in the shop that was near their house, 387 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: and they could afford it, and they knew that they 388 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: could probably afford to take a vacation to Bulgaria, and 389 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: they knew, you know, that they could depend on these 390 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: basic kind of middle class things that made life worth living. 391 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: And that when we came along and told them, oh, 392 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 1: but you must want freedom of the press, because that's 393 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: the most important thing, they would look at you blankly 394 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: and say, why it's not more important than being able 395 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: to buy sausage. And so I think that was the 396 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: you know, that was the sort of um the conversation 397 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: we were having with Russians in the nine nineties, and 398 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: they just weren't understanding, you know, what was what was 399 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: it that was so important about this democracy thing. It 400 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: just didn't really make sense to them. And it brought 401 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: only it had brought this this era had brought only misery. Um. 402 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: And so I think back to your original question, Katie, 403 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: this good question of kind of humiliation and that sort 404 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: of feeling less than I think that for a lot 405 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: of Russians that was true as well, that you know, 406 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: we used to be great people, used to respect us 407 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: in the world. They used to be afraid of us. 408 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: And now look, you know, they laugh at us, and 409 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: that hurt. And I, you know, I think that again, 410 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: I don't think this is a particularly Russian thing. Perhaps 411 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: it's a big powers thing, or it's a declining big 412 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: powers thing. Again, you know, I feel like we were 413 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: it's a human nature thing involving no. I think countries 414 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: can have egos too, And you know, interestingly, I mean, 415 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: I remember one of the first times I came, one 416 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: of the first assignments I did when I came back 417 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: to the US in two I was covering mid terms 418 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: in Delaware. Of all places. There was a Tea party 419 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: candidate there that I was following, And I remember what 420 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: going to a kind of a big, sort of secondhand 421 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: market on a Sunday in southern Delaware, and I was 422 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: talking to people there and saying, you know, I was 423 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: talking about the election and and then I was just 424 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: sort of talking about life. And I remember asking this 425 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: one guy, you know, why do you come here on 426 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: a Sunday? You know, you could be just at home 427 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: watching TV or relaxing. What's what's what's what's why do 428 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: you come to this this market? And he said, well, 429 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: I of being in a place where so much of 430 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: the merchandise was made in America. And he was really 431 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: animated by this idea that you know, the US was 432 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: in decline, that that China was more powerful, that we 433 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: used to be great, and now we're just limping along 434 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: in this kind of pathetic way. And I and I 435 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: tell you it could have been. It was the same 436 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: conversation I would have had with a Russian person in 437 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: any provincial city at any point in the nineteen nineties. Well, 438 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: let's talk about this invasion of Ukraine. Um, how much 439 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: of that, either by Putin or perhaps by the Russian 440 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: people has been tangled up in this notion that we 441 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: need to be a better you know, we need to 442 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: be a version of our former selves. I think, you know, 443 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: for Putin a lot. I I'm actually trying to write 444 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: an essay right now about this, just kind of remembering, 445 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, back through my years in Russia. And I 446 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,679 Speaker 1: remember I spent a bit of time in Georgia in 447 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, which of course was the previous 448 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: that the you know, before Russia started doing all of 449 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: these things in Ukraine, and it did, it had an 450 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: invasion of Georgia, country of Georgia. And I went back 451 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: to the pieces I wrote from there, and I quoted 452 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: one Russian officer is saying, since Putin has come, you know, essentially, 453 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: we feel like men again, We we feel like we 454 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: are um. People respect us again, and this is a 455 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,119 Speaker 1: great feeling. And so I think that there is you know, 456 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: there there definitely is um is something to that. Now. 457 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,119 Speaker 1: You know, this invasion of Ukraine was entirely an invasion 458 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: of choice, and it was an invasion of choice that 459 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: came out of one man's brain. So I can't exactly 460 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: say that, you know, the people of Russia were sort 461 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: of driving him to this. I don't think that there 462 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: was some kind of you know, I think that the 463 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 1: most people in Russia were very you know, obviously there's 464 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: a big propaganda campaign going on into the extent that 465 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: people even understand what is actually happening in Ukraine. You know, 466 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: many people don't. But um I'd say that certainly, you know, 467 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: Russian people we knew were very were shocked that this 468 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: had happened. Um So, I don't think that there was 469 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: a big you know, it's very different than in which 470 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: Russia annexed Crimea, the peninsula in the southern part of 471 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: Ukraine and then you know, sort of stirred up some 472 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: nationalist trouble in the eastern part of the country. I 473 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: think that I was in Russia around that time, and 474 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 1: you know, it was a very nationalist surge. You know, 475 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: there was this phrase pretty nash Crimea is ours, this 476 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: kind of you know, people there was a real public 477 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: ground swell backing that, and I don't that is not 478 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: the case in this current invasion. Well, let me ask 479 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: you about that, because I've tried to read and understand 480 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: the Russian how the Russian people feel, which of course 481 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: is ridiculously monolithic description, right, But I've read that it's 482 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 1: urban versus rural, that it's young versus old. People who 483 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: have access to the internet and understand how to get information, 484 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: uh may feel one way. People who don't, who are 485 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: older and maybe perhaps less tech tech savvy, feel another way. Um, 486 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: can you give us a sense or is it impossible 487 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: to know about public support of what's happened in Ukraine? 488 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: So I actually spent quite a bit of time trying 489 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: to sort this out because I myself was also very 490 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: curious about this. Um so UM, I mean you have 491 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: to sort of start with that there aren't really public 492 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: opinion right well, at this point, there's there are some 493 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: very good organizations that try to do it, but it's 494 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: just become, you know, quite dangerous. There are lots of 495 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: arguments about how even you know, the best ones when 496 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: they all up people on the phone, would you honestly 497 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: answer anything at this point in Russia? So you know, 498 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot of a huge amount of skepticism about 499 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: the polls that are out there. Having said that, I 500 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: did call a number of those organizations for the purpose 501 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: of this piece of writing I was doing, and you know, 502 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: it's it's it's anywhere between half to two thirds of 503 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: you know, nationally of Russians, UM say that they support 504 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: whatever it is they think that Putin is doing in Ukraine. 505 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: So you know, the support is pretty high, but you 506 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: need to understand along with that that it's it's um 507 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: you know that for the most part, they don't there's 508 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: really not a clear picture anywhere of what is actually happening. 509 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: Certainly most people are still just television washers and on 510 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: Russian television. You would never know what was happen. You 511 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: know that there was a war going on in Ukraine. 512 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: Really not at all. Well it's a small you know, 513 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: it's a contained, small sort of humanitarian um you know, 514 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: mission that's very massification because the Russians were being mistreated, 515 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: the Russians in Ukraine, or I mean, is that what 516 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: they're thinking? I mean, you know, when you say that, 517 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: what they're thinking, it's it's hard to I think that 518 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: for the most part, the best way to understand it 519 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: is that Russians. You know, there obviously are some you know, 520 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: very nationalist people in Russia who say, oh, you know, 521 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: down with those Nazis, good on you Putin. But I 522 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: think that for the most part, the most common reaction 523 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: is something's going on over there. I'm not quite sure 524 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: what it is. It's one big power against another big power. 525 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: Big powers were all corrupt. Who can possibly sort out 526 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: what where the truth is? It's too hard. I don't know. 527 00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Everybody's lying. I'm just gonna go by to me. Does 528 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 1: it's that, you know, It's it's the kind of like, 529 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: probably they're not entirely telling the truth, but I'm just 530 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: one little person. I'm never going to be able to 531 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: truly understand it. And you know, the West has always 532 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: had it in for Russia anyway, so I certainly I'm 533 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna believe what they're saying. I mean, 534 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 1: it's this real kind of like just you know, it's 535 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: just post fact society, which again Katie, I mean, you know, 536 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: I feel like we we are you know, we're we're 537 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: not entirely we're not entirely ignorant of that, you know, 538 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: And again I recognize Russia and in a lot of 539 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: these tendencies in the US, it's that you know, no 540 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: one you can't. It's it's it's the making of it's 541 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: getting society to the point where it's so cynical and 542 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: so exhausted that it's not going to listen to anybody 543 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: or anything, so true, false, whatever, I'm not going to 544 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: bother my head at try about trying to sort it out, 545 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: because it's never going to be clear for me and 546 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: it's never going to be working in my favor, and 547 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: I don't care. And that's kind of where they are 548 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 1: coming up more with New York Times journalists and co 549 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: hosted The Daily Sabrina TAVERNESSI so you have done some 550 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: incredible reporting, telling these microcosmic stories that I think are 551 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: very illustrative of what's happening over and over again in Ukraine. 552 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,760 Speaker 1: And I know you spent time, as you mentioned, with 553 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: with mothers and their children, and that they were just 554 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 1: I think in a complete state of shock. Tell me 555 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: what it was like talking to those women and many 556 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: of them, I'm assuming, Sabrina, are your age, small kids, 557 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: and I'm I'm curious, what did many of these women 558 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: tell you. They were in that early stage that I 559 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: do remember from other conflicts, of being so shocked that 560 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: what was happening had happened to them that they couldn't 561 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: quite It's like their brains hadn't caught up with their bodies. 562 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: You know, I mean it was sort of interviewing them. 563 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: They sort of had this dazed look that you know, 564 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: really literally just last week, I was taking my kid 565 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: to piano lessons or you know, I was um, I 566 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: was going to work, I was looking for a parking place. 567 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: I was living my life in my town with my family, 568 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: and in a million years, I never would have believed 569 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: that this could ever happen in my town. And you know, 570 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: it happens really quickly. I mean I remember this in 571 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: that that you know, one day you're taking a run 572 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: by the river and there, you know, there's lots of 573 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: middle class life bubbling around you, little espresso trucks and 574 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: little um, you know, yoga studios and people having beers 575 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: after work. And then one day there's just a crack 576 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 1: in the sky and and and all of that stuffs 577 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: and then all middle class people try to leave and 578 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: then it becomes an empty, dead place. And I mean 579 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: that was what was happening in Ukraine the weeks that 580 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: I was there. And it's very painful to see because 581 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: people can't process it, um and so they're kind of 582 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: in the process of leaving still saying, oh, you know, 583 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: I'm we're definitely going back. This is just you know, 584 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: this is this is just kind of temporary. We're going 585 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: to be gone for for a couple of weeks because 586 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: in many parts of Ukraine, or this was my impression 587 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: and maybe you can help me understand this. In certain 588 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 1: parts of Ukraine anyway, they'd be come used to sort 589 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:08,399 Speaker 1: of uh military maneuvering and kind of trying to live 590 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: their lives riding their bikes and that Lindsay and Dario 591 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: is a friend of mine, and she talked about how 592 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: people just sort of you know, hit the ground in 593 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: certain cases. Was that why it spread or is that 594 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: just in pockets of Ukraine? I think it's really just 595 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: I mean in it was it was in this kind 596 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: of a small small part of the eastern part of Ukraine, 597 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: so dnie Can Lukans and this is actually a place 598 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: I spent a bunch of time. Um, you know, the 599 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: war had come there in shortly after Russia and x Crimea. 600 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: So you have kind of the events were you know, 601 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: revolution essentially in Kiev Moscow. Friendly leader collapses and flees 602 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: and you have a new government. Russia comes in and 603 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: takes over the Crimean peninsula. Remember the Little Green Men 604 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: that was that was that period. Um, no one knew 605 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: who they were, and then suddenly it was obvious that 606 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: they were Russians. And then um, in the in the 607 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: on the eastern sliver of Ukraine along the Russian border, 608 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: there was this sort of nationalist uprising, which you know 609 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: it wasn't uprising and it was nationalist, but it was 610 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: very much backed by Moscow. So you had kind of 611 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: local governments in a number of places fall to these 612 00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: Moscow backed separatists and so those regions also fell in 613 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: So you know, so that that eastern flank was a 614 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: place that was used used to but it was a 615 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: place where there had been war for eight years and 616 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: it was kind of bumping along, but the rest of 617 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: the country was living. Yeah, I mean people were not 618 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: used to war at all. That you know, Ukraine had 619 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: you know obviously, you know it had a memory of it, 620 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: I suppose from the Second World War, but it's been 621 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: a very long time since Grainians had been you know, 622 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: in in conflict. Um. So it was it was a 623 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: deep shock to people. Um and you know you just 624 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: saw them kind of ghost like wandering, you know, in 625 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: these long lines of of traffic and you know this 626 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: whole kind of It's like the whole country emptied out 627 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: into this one river trying to leave um And we 628 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,399 Speaker 1: did a um An app We did an episode about 629 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: it because I was so struck by You know what 630 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: happens when you know millions of people get on the 631 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: road at the same time too, to leave their own land. 632 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: It looks like that UM four million. At this point, 633 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: four million people have left Ukraine and so many journally 634 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: displaced as well, I mean many many more internally displaced. 635 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: So what what is going to happen? I know you 636 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: don't have a crystal ball, but I think that's what 637 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:59,399 Speaker 1: everyone is wondering. The first off, I mean, it's taken 638 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: much longer or for the Russian military to do this. 639 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: I think they really underestimated the pride and the fierce 640 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: loyalty Ukrainians had for their country and their way of life. 641 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: But it does seem like it's a matter of time 642 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: before I don't know, maybe that's not true. I don't know. UM, 643 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen? I think 644 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: that's the question everyone wants to know. I mean, what 645 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: what does Putin want? Will he just keep going? Will 646 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: it even if it's a slog, Uh, what's going to 647 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,480 Speaker 1: happen to Zelenski who's just impressed people all around the 648 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: world with his his defiance and courage. I mean, how 649 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: do you see all of this planing out? Sabrina. Yeah, 650 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: it is a million dollar question, and you know, unfortunately, 651 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: to be able to answer it accurately, one would need 652 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: to be inside the brain of Leni mur Putin, because, um, 653 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: you know, we he's he is the only one that 654 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 1: matters in the situation, and he is the one that 655 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: we know at least about. Um, you know, we have 656 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: some sense of what the Russian Defense Ministry is saying, 657 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,359 Speaker 1: and we're making a lot of guesses about what you know, 658 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 1: their statements mean visa vie what might happen. You know, 659 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: there are these talks that have been happening, But are 660 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: any of those people empowered to really talk on behalf 661 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: of Putin? We don't really know. He's also being protected 662 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 1: from the truth. That sounds like he is getting a 663 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:37,440 Speaker 1: rosie uh scenario when things are not going well right, 664 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 1: which has been kind of a long proud history of 665 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: of of Russian autocrats that you know, people don't want 666 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: to tell them the truth. Um, you know, it's very 667 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: I think that. I think the thing that I've been 668 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:55,760 Speaker 1: most surprised by is that Ukrainians have really rallied and 669 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: really shown that Ukraine is an idea that they are 670 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: willing to die for. I was, I was not. I 671 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: didn't really know what to expect. But but you know, 672 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: certainly like that has been very much something that has 673 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: come out of this. I mean it's like every you know, 674 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: going around Ukraine those weeks, it's like every single person 675 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: in the country was rowing towards the same point on 676 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: the horizon. I mean, it was this amazing kind of 677 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: social act that was going on, um, everybody. So that 678 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: was quite something. You know, in terms of the Russians, again, 679 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: I can't pretend to know what's in Putin's head. Um, 680 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's obviously not going very well for them, 681 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: But I don't think that that means that he will 682 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: back off or say, okay, I'm crying uncle. I mean, 683 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: he believes that Ukraine cannot you know, go west. I 684 00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: mean that that, you know, it's it's very fun to 685 00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: mental and and I don't think that, you know, some 686 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: military setbacks are going to change that. So you know, 687 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 1: maybe there's a scenario in which you know, he Russia 688 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: resets and it's more about taking the eastern and southern 689 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: parts of the country, which is you know, on the 690 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:25,880 Speaker 1: other side of the Nipper River. Um. You know, certainly 691 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: we know that he won't leave Ukraine alone, so it 692 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: won't you know, Ukraine will not be in a position 693 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: in which it would be able to you know, join 694 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: the EU, get foreign investment. I mean, Ukraine will be 695 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 1: this kind of hobbled thing, and that of course suits 696 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: his purposes very well. So I don't really know territorially 697 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: what it will mean, but it is not good for Ukrainians, 698 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: and I would honestly be surprised if you know, in 699 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks there's some diplomatic solution and we 700 00:41:57,719 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: all go back to the way we were. And I 701 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: just don't I just don't see that happening. So you 702 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: think it will just continue to be a slow and 703 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: painful and violent shipping away of this country and its 704 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 1: people and any civilians that may get in his way. Yeah, 705 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:21,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think that matters. In fact, I 706 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: think that that's part of the strategy, right that that 707 00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,720 Speaker 1: was certainly the case in Chichia. You know that you 708 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: you make up for what you can't achieve in a 709 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,560 Speaker 1: functioning ground campaign by bombing things. And that's certainly how 710 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: they ended up taking that city and subduing that territory. Um. 711 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine obviously much bigger, you know, chas Um. You know, 712 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: Grows needs a couple hundred thousand people and and he 713 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: is four million people. Um, but you know they've got time. 714 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 1: They're not you know that they they he thinks at 715 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: a time totally different time horizon than we do. So 716 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: I just don't I don't. I know that we're kind 717 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: of um, you know, as journalists always sort of being 718 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 1: asked to kind of you know, be authoritative about what 719 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:11,640 Speaker 1: will happen and kind of where this is all going. 720 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,919 Speaker 1: But I just think I just don't think I think 721 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: it's I think it's um. I don't think it's necessarily 722 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: going to a good place, and it's going to be 723 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,760 Speaker 1: it could be you know, muddled and unclear, but certainly 724 00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: painful and grinding for a very long time. And in 725 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: your view, is Putin here to stay? I think people 726 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: fantasize about, you know, what if Putin just was taken 727 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: out or OUs did or whatever assassinated even and uh 728 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: uh do you get the sense that he's not going anywhere? Yes, yeah, 729 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think there's any I don't think 730 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: there's any danger with Putin. I mean he's you know, 731 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:58,879 Speaker 1: he's very well insulated, he's popular. You know, it's he's 732 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: not I think this is mostly kind of fantasy of people. 733 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: I think it's people projecting what they wish, what they 734 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,800 Speaker 1: wish would happen, uh, and not what is likely to happen. 735 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: And do you think he's crazy enough to use nuclear weapons? 736 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. I really don't. I mean, 737 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: it would be just pure speculation. I'm it's not It's 738 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: not part of what I report, So I would need 739 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: to ask what are my Pentagon colleagues? I mean maybe, 740 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:32,560 Speaker 1: um maybe, I don't know. It's a really um scary 741 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: new world, isn't it? In many ways very strange. I 742 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:41,439 Speaker 1: keep looking at it, thinking is this happening? I I don't. 743 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: I keep squinting and just not recognizing it, though I should. 744 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: You know, because um, as many people in Russia will 745 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,640 Speaker 1: tell you, you know, there have been signs of this 746 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,399 Speaker 1: for a long time. I mean, there was a grows 747 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: the invasion in two thousand and eight, there was Crimea 748 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 1: in eastern Ukraine in two thousand fourteen, there was chick 749 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: On two thousand um. But yeah, it's like we kind 750 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: of I guess, we're always trying to tell the world 751 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: that Russia in a lot of ways was lovable and 752 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: good and interesting and like a place that they should admire. 753 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: Um And you know, perhaps we should have spent more 754 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: time on the on the parts that you shouldn't. It's 755 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: kind of like what, you know, what's in the mind 756 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: of one man, because it's I can't really say that, 757 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,560 Speaker 1: you know, Russians themselves were desperate for this. I mean, 758 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,359 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, it was a very it's 759 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: a very radical thing that he's doing. I mean, for 760 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,759 Speaker 1: Russians to be killing Ukrainians that was not that's not 761 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,719 Speaker 1: and has never been something that would popularly fly. It 762 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,200 Speaker 1: would be like would it be like Americans killing Canadians? Yeah, 763 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: like that. It just I mean, I can't even I mean, 764 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: it's so deeply shocking, which is why I think people 765 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: have this kind of phones mechanism that it's you know, 766 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: it can't be it's it's got it's like it's not 767 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 1: really that there's something else some way I can justify 768 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: it because it's too horrible to actually contemplate. If I 769 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: have to, like stare at into the sun of it, 770 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,279 Speaker 1: I can't. I actually can't get my head there. So 771 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,239 Speaker 1: it's radical what he's doing. Well, I'm glad that we 772 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:26,120 Speaker 1: have your intelligence and sensitivity to help us, to help 773 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:31,280 Speaker 1: guide us through this this very scary and uncertain time. UM. 774 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: That sounds like it has potential to kind of shift 775 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: the world order in some ways and present a challenge 776 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 1: that Americans really haven't thought about for a very long time. 777 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,160 Speaker 1: Very much so well, Sabrina, thank you, it's um, it's 778 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: so fun to talk to you, and good luck with everything. 779 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: Thank you, really enjoyed talking to you, you too, Katie, 780 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much. That was New York Times journalists 781 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: and co host of The Daily Sabrina Tavernisi. Thanks for listening, everybody, 782 00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 1: and you'll hear me next time. Next Question with Katie 783 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: Kurik is a production of I Heart Media and Katie 784 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,240 Speaker 1: Curic Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Curic, and Courtney Litz. 785 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:32,520 Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements 786 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by 787 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 788 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go 789 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,400 Speaker 1: to Katie Couric dot com. You can also find me 790 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: at Katie Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. 791 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 792 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,279 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 793 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:57,320 Speaker 1: your favorite shows,