1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's not too many 2 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: things in this world that I enjoy more than going fishing. 3 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: And one particular type of fish I like to seek 4 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: out in freshwater, that is or catfishing. I loved catfish, 5 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: and you know one of the hubs of catfishing in 6 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: America is actually Oklahoma. You get up there in that 7 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: red clay, those stained rivers, and they catch some of 8 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: the biggest cats around. When you go fishing, sometimes you 9 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: hook into things that you didn't expect to hook into, 10 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: and sometimes you find things that will just absolutely chill 11 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: you to the core. Today we're going to talk about 12 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: four men. We're all shot, dismembered, and their bodies were 13 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: tossed into the Grand Fork River and Mulke, Oklahoma. I'm 14 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morten and this its Body Backs. My dear 15 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard is with me today. She's the executive 16 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jack you like 17 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: to fish? Would it surprise you for me to say yes, 18 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: I do. I like to fish too. And you know 19 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: the thing about Oklahoma is that all those shows that 20 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: you see on TV Manytimes, some of these shows from 21 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: back just a few years ago. Have you seen these 22 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: guys that go into the river and they go to noodles. 23 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 1: Oh yes, their arms into the water and they wiggle 24 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: their fingers around in some big old cap will bite 25 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: their hand and arm and they just pull it out. 26 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: And to me, it's terrifying because being from Louisiana, I 27 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: know what else is underneath there, and it's not alligators. 28 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: They don't have alligators up in Oklahoma, and I don't think, 29 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: but they do have snapping turtles, and I'm terrified of them. 30 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: You know, they say a snapping turtle won't turn loose 31 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: off your finger until it thunders, So I'm terrified of 32 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: that good reason to be. I'm absolutely terrifying. But I 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: gotta tell you this case today on bodybacks is absolutely horrific. 34 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: I was amazed when this came up in my news 35 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: feed and I began to kind of dig into it 36 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: a little bit. This is another one of those cases. 37 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: And I guess all of our cases are Joe that 38 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,519 Speaker 1: we just look at and it's so hard to comprehend 39 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: and understand. Four friends, actually two brothers and two other friends. 40 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: Billy Chastain, thirty years old, His brother Mark Chatain thirty 41 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: two years old, Mike Spike's thirty two years old, and 42 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: Alex Stevens twenty nine. They left Billy's home on bicycle 43 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: on the evening of Sunday, October ninth. Than they were 44 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: reported missing soon thereafter they were not seen again. That's 45 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: a very odd way to go missing, peddling off on 46 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: a bicycle. And then their bodies were recovered in a 47 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: local river, and as you said, they had been shot 48 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 1: and dismembered. Mode of transportation off the bat, Joe, how 49 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: do you follow a bicycle? If you're trying to track 50 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: these Let's just say start there. You're trying to track 51 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: these guys, how do you track a bicycle? Look, you 52 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: know when I said that, the case kind of shocked 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: me when it popped up on my feet and I 54 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: beginning to kind of dig into it a little bit. 55 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: One of the reasons is bicycles. I don't know that 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: I've ever encountered a homicide like this singular, much less 57 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: a quadruple homicide. And that's what we're talking about here. 58 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: How do you track them? And what an interesting piece 59 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: to this as well that the sheriff kind of lets 60 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: slip out up their news confer and this is kind 61 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: of wild too. They were actually pulling wagons behind the 62 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: bicycles and I'm thinking, why in the world would you 63 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: be doing this, And these these villas were not out 64 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: unlike an afternoon ride, you know, like you see these 65 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: guys wearing spandex and are riding them down the road 66 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: and they're going for time and distancing. No no, no, no no, no, 67 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: that's that's not what this is. These guys were using 68 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: this as a mode of transportation to get to a 69 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 1: specific location, and the sheriff has implied at least that 70 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: their destination was to a location where they could get 71 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: involved in some missie, where they were going to be 72 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: involved in something that they shouldn't have been involved in. 73 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: And to this moment in time, as far as this 74 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: investigation is concerned, they still have yet to recover these bicycles, 75 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: and I think that's going to be a big piece 76 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 1: to this because I have to imagine that whoever wound 77 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: up bringing about these individual's desks and they're subsequent dismemberment 78 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: had something to do with those bikes. And I think 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: that as an investigator, if you can find a location 80 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: where they are deposited, it is going to give you 81 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: an idea as to who was involved and at what 82 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: point in time they were involved, because you're going to 83 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: look for things like, you know, any kind of damage 84 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: to the bikes, like where they broadsided by a car, 85 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: was any of the frame tubular frame that they used, 86 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: was it bent in any way? I think that those 87 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: are going to be considerations as well. And when they 88 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: do finally get their hands on those bikes, to trust me, 89 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: they're going to go over them from stem to stern 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: to try to find any any kind of trace evidence. 91 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: Right now, I'm kind of interested in as far as 92 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: damage goes, I'm kind of interested in is there any 93 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: transfer of paint on them? Where they sideswiped by a 94 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: car knocked off the road? You get that paint. Transferred 95 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: paint is specifically inifiable in a forensic lab, you can 96 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: actually trace it back to the source from who you know, 97 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: who manufactured the paint. It's actually a fascinating area of 98 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: forensics in the trace evidence vision of most crime labs. 99 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: And so they can do that, and it's it's going 100 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: to be interesting if they recover them. Can you trace 101 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: a bicycle tire as you would an automobile tire. Yeah, 102 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: I mean they have Look, I mean they are specific, 103 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: two specific types of rims and more broadly, two specific 104 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: types of bicycles. And you know the types of tires 105 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: that are own bikes are particular to a particular framework. 106 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: If you're you know, mountain biking, or if it's a 107 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: touring bicycle or you know, you have you seen these 108 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: bikes that people ride at the at the beach that 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: have these gigantic tires on the cruisers Yeah, yeah, cruisers, 110 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: and they're very distinctive. When tires come on a vehicle. 111 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: You go to lease that might sell a bicycle, or 112 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: you go to a police that sells a car. The 113 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: tires that that if it's a brand new car, the 114 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: tires that that individual vehicle come with or refer to 115 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: as OE, which means original equipment, and the OE, the 116 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: original equipment is specific to a particular type of manufacturer. 117 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: And when you have crime labs, they have reference material there. 118 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: It's one of the most fascinated People will have no 119 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: idea how much reference material crime labs have. And just 120 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,000 Speaker 1: this is really kind of going far afield, but I'll 121 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: give you an idea. Places like the FBI Crime Lab, 122 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: they actually have millions of buttons. Buttons, and they have 123 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: just to identify buttons off of clothing and zippers and 124 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: fasteners and all that stuff. Well, they have the same 125 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,680 Speaker 1: thing for tires, and so if you have a tire, 126 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: for instance, you can trace it back if it is 127 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: OE or if it's a replacement tire. Okay, So if 128 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: these bicycles are found and say the equipment has been 129 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: changed to have at some point in time, maybe they 130 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: blew out a tire or the tire became warm or 131 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: something like that, you can actually go back and trace 132 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: it to the replacement manufacturer and you know who might 133 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: distribute this particular tire in a location. And another thing 134 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: with tire, with tires themselves, they leave behind a mark, okay, 135 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: particularly on soft so oil. We see this all the 136 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: time relative to motor vehicles when we're assessing a crime scene. 137 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: But tires are the same way, and they have specific 138 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: wear patterns as well. And it's even more specific with 139 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: bicycles because bicycles directly support the weight of an individual. Okay, 140 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: and this is kind of fascinating because with cars, you know, 141 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: it has a major suspension system, shock absorbers, all that stuff. 142 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: So the weight of an individual is not going to 143 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: impact a motor vehicle, a four wheel motor vehicle as 144 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: much as it will, say, for instance, a bicycle tire. 145 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: So if you're riding a bicycle and you're larger, there 146 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 1: will be a distinct heavy impression that's left behind. So 147 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: if you get off of this road and you're riding 148 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: on a dirt surface, maybe the tire tracks should just 149 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: suddenly end. Well suddenly, you know, if you find that bike, 150 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: you can marry it up to that track in particular, 151 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: and that could be a piece of evidence here because 152 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: we don't know where these bikes wound up. But what 153 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: if the perpetrator went back after maybe, for instance, he 154 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: did grieve his harm to these individuals and kill them 155 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: and then rode each bike down a hill into a 156 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: place where he deposited them. Well, those tracks will be 157 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: specific to that bicycle and also the weight of the 158 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: individual that was riding it. And it's just one of 159 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: those little nuanced areas that we look at in investigations. 160 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: What about the distance traveled in the search, because obviously 161 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: you're not going to have near mileage covered with a 162 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: bicycle that you're going to have with a car, So 163 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: how do you calculate how far to extend your search. Well, 164 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 1: I think that conversely, you're not going to have as 165 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: small of an area as you might if an individual 166 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: as a pedestrian, So you're going to kind of split 167 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: the difference. You know, you have to think you got 168 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: four friends riding along on bicycles, and boy, would they 169 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: stand out. I just had that thought that came to me. 170 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: You know, boy would they stand out if they're pulling 171 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: wagons behind a bicycle. I've seen wagons behind bicycles, you know, 172 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: I've got grand kids. You go to the beach and 173 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: take bikes, and you can get the little attachments that 174 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 1: go on the back. And yet there are actual wagons 175 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: to wield, wagons that you can pull behind a bike. 176 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: Maybe they're homemade. They're really going to stand out. And 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, certainly you would be able to go a 178 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: greater distance if you're not pulling the load as opposed 179 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: to coming back if you filled up these wagons. And 180 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,319 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with 181 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: the physical condition that the individual will sort in at 182 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: that particular time, the road and weather conditions. How hot 183 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: was it. Oklahoma can get pretty hot even into that 184 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 1: time of year. When you're getting into the end of 185 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: September early October. Could they have continued Did they have 186 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: any drugs on board? Maybe that is yet to be determined. 187 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: So all of those factors are going to play into this. 188 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 1: And also how serviceable were these bicycles that they were 189 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: on or was there sufficient inflation in the tires, because 190 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: that's a big deal with a bicycle where they mechanically sound. 191 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: How far could you go on this saying I don't know, 192 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: Maybe there are brand new bikes and you could ride 193 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 1: from one end of Oklahoma to the other end of Oklahoma, 194 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: drive all the way out and panhandled for all I know. 195 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: But you have to take all of those factors into 196 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: consideration in addition to are you riding on unimproved roads 197 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: or improved roads? Is this an area that is a 198 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: two lane blacktop that's recently been topped, or is this 199 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: an area where you've got a dirt road, perhaps it's 200 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: out a gravel base to it, you're not going to 201 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: be able to make as much distance. Or is it 202 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: a road that is poorly surfaced, maybe it's eroded in 203 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 1: some way. You're having to dodge potholes and that takes 204 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: a toll on the individual operating the bicycle over period 205 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: of time. So I think that all those factors will 206 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: come into play. And good old technology plays into this too, 207 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: because police turn to digital information to help track the 208 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: four men's movements after they left the home. Mark Chastain's 209 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: wife used an app on her phone. Her husband's phone 210 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: was tracked to a salvage yard, to a local gas station, 211 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: and then to a second scrap yard using the data 212 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: from that app on Mark Chastain's Wife's phone. Good old technology, Joe, Yeah, 213 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: who would have thunk it relative to a bicycle, right, 214 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it stands the reason, well everybody is 215 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: kind of an overstatement, but many people carry phones now, 216 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: more I think do than don't. And so you've got, 217 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: you know, this modern technology of a phone that is 218 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: essentially having an impact here relative to somebody riding a 219 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: bicycle a non motorized vehicle going down the road, and yeah, 220 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: they can track them with this. And you know, another 221 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: thing is really crucial here because with this mechanism put 222 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: of these phones that they're tracking, one of the things 223 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: that you get back is a time signature, and so 224 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: depended upon the time of day and depended upon the 225 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: individuals that may, say, for instance, travel up and down 226 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: that road, say couriers or people that are delivery people 227 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. They have certain timetables 228 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: that they stick to. And then you've got people that 229 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: are going to work, coming home from work, leaving to 230 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: go out and get groceries, and maybe somebody saw something 231 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: during that period of time, and that's where canvassing comes 232 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: in on the part of the detectives. They would go 233 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: up and down this road and they're going to visit 234 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: every home along this thoroughfare, and they're gonna knock on 235 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: doors and they're gonna say, hey, look, did you happen 236 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: to see four guys on bicycles with wagons behind them? 237 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: And you know it's that's not a passive thing. That's 238 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: something that's like, yeah, I did. I couldn't believe what 239 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: I was seeing when I saw them. Or maybe somebody 240 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: might say, hey, you know what those guys are up 241 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 1: and down this road all the time I've seen them. 242 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: They all travel together on these bicycles towing these wagons 243 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: behind them. The leave going down the road and they're 244 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: empty and they come back and they're filled with stuff. 245 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of data that is going to 246 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: point you to certain points along the continuum along this timeline, 247 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: if you will, relative to activity, location, time, all those 248 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: sorts of things. And I gotta tell you, Jackie, one 249 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: of the things that really stands out to me is 250 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: that according to the police, apparently you know that second 251 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: scrapyard that you mentioned, Jackie, that's going to be key 252 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: because that is where the phone was actually turned off. 253 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: And I don't know. The sheriff actually said in a 254 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: property just at Jason, just at Jason, to that scrapyard 255 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: where that phone went dead or went silent, he thinks 256 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: that a violent act occurred. And it's the only thing, 257 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: you say, a muddy river. Why in the world would 258 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: you go to all of the trouble of shooting four 259 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: grown men, taking the bodies apart, and then going to 260 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: a river and toss them in there. I think that 261 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: that's a head scratcher for me, because we know, just 262 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: as I said earlier, the people go fishing in rivers, 263 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: People visit rivers all of the time. Why a river, 264 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: why not some out of the way place to bury? 265 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: Why not burn? But for some reason, the individual that 266 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: did this chose to go to the Green Fork River 267 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 1: well before we get into the river, we know that 268 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: violent event police believe happened next to the second scrapyard. 269 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: So my question do you is how do you kill 270 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: four grown men in a shorter period of time? How 271 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: do you subdue four men at once? I mean you're 272 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: looking at immediacy boom boom, boom boom for the perpetrator 273 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: to be able to survive this himself. It's not like 274 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 1: you would shoot one person, wait ten or fifteen minutes 275 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: and shoot somebody else. So how do you think the 276 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: shootings happened? I got three things along to explore here. 277 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: First off is going to be speed. Whoever did this 278 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: would have had to have acted in great speed because 279 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: it's you know, potentially one person that's involved in this, 280 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: so they will have to be very quick with what 281 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: they're going to do. And that speed is going to 282 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: involve a weapon that is probably going to have a 283 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: high capacity. Along with the speed, you're going to have 284 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: to have a number of bullets. You know, you'll have 285 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: to have potentially a lot of ammunition in the magazine. Secondly, 286 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: it's going to be accuracy. You've got four guys, you know, 287 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: after you drop the first guy, unless they're subdued in 288 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,159 Speaker 1: some way that we're not aware of yet, where they're tied, 289 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: for instance, and they are immobile, maybe they're laying on 290 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: the ground. Maybe he has initially subdued them in some way. 291 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: Maybe he shot them in a way that didn't bring 292 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: about their lives immediately, but he tied them up put 293 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: them on the ground. You're going to have to be 294 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: accurate with the weapon, and skilled accuracy goes to skill 295 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: in this particular case, so you would have to be 296 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: skilled and familiar with the weapon that you're using. And 297 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: I think third, you're going to have to have a 298 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: weapon unless you were a pinpoint accurate, You're going to 299 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: have to have a weapon that potentially has a high 300 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: muzzle velocity, something that's very powerful when you take them down. 301 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: Because you can bring a smaller caliber weapon to bear, 302 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: say like a twenty two rifle, but just because you 303 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: hit somebody with a twenty two rifle doesn't mean that 304 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: you're going to take them down. So I'm thinking maybe 305 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: maybe I have no idea, but maybe something like a 306 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,360 Speaker 1: military platform type weapon that has potentially a high capacity 307 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: magazine or another type of weapon platform that might be 308 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: involved in this could in fact be something like a shotgun. 309 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: Okay that Scott say, load with buckshot, where you're going 310 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: to be able to maybe take out two people at 311 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: one time. Who knows at this point. For all I know, 312 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: we've got a perpetrator that is a world class pistol 313 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: champion and they're using a nine millimeter handgun or something. 314 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 1: We don't have quite enough information. We do know in 315 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: fact that all four of these individuals were in fact shot, 316 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: and in order to disable them, to kill them and 317 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: get them in this specific location, you're going to have 318 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: to have a lot of factors that are going to 319 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: come into play at once. This is not the movies. Okay, 320 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: people react to the sound of gunfire. So if you're 321 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: the first guy that gets shot, there's an awareness. First off, 322 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: you've heard a crack in the air. You've heard a crack. 323 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: If you're one of the other guys, you see your 324 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: buddy drop to the ground. Maybe he's groaning in pain. 325 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe he dies instantly. But there's going 326 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: to be an awareness on the other three, on the 327 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,399 Speaker 1: parts of the other three. So what do you do 328 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: at that moment time? Are you a deer in headlights? 329 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: Are are you going to bolt are you going to 330 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: try to run for the bushes, Are you going to 331 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: try to, I don't know, just get away, hide behind something, 332 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: or are you going to get down your knees and 333 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 1: beg for your life? You know, it's hard to know 334 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: what that dynamic was at that particular time. Or were 335 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: they just in a position where they couldn't extricate themselves 336 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: from it, they were just in a position where they 337 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: were they were going to be shot and they were 338 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: going to be killed, or right there in that location, 339 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: because like I said, they had been restrained in some way. 340 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: So we'll know a bit and more as this begins 341 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: to develop and as time goes by. But I find 342 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: one of the things I find very interesting about what 343 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: the sheriff said, Jackie is that this is an area 344 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: where a violent act took place, and I think more 345 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: than likely, it's very important that we kind of try 346 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: to define, well, what does a violent act mean? It 347 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: would mean to me, not just the shooting, but where 348 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: the dismemberment took place. At first blood, I'm thinking the 349 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 1: same thing, And you know, what is I think, you know, 350 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to wax to philosophical here, but what 351 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: is violence? You know, how do you define violence and 352 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: what does that mean in this context? Because if you 353 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: say in an outdoor, open area, and I'm assuming that 354 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 1: that's what this is, I think probably the first thing 355 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: that everybody's mind runs to it I can almost bet 356 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: you dollars to donuts right now, is the first thing 357 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 1: you think about is an area involving a lot of blood. 358 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: A lot of blood that's going to be out there 359 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: at that specific area. And maybe the ground was super saturated. 360 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: Maybe it was on surface of plastic and the person 361 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: didn't really the plastic. Maybe it's on leaves that have 362 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: fallen and you see contact traces of blood all over 363 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,200 Speaker 1: the place. Maybe the ground where this event took place, 364 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: the dirt itself. Maybe it's a sandy soil out there 365 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: you can actually walk over and see evidence of it. 366 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: You know, I've worked cases where there was no longer 367 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: a body, but there was a huge there was a 368 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: huge area of blood in that area. And you know, 369 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: one of the things that I solved very commonly that 370 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 1: people might not think about. I think the general public 371 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: always associates the development of maggots and fly activity and 372 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: that sort of thing can place on bodies. But did 373 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: you know that in the absence of a body, with 374 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: the presence of blood, you can have maggot activity in 375 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: that area as well. I've walked out to areas where 376 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: people had been killed and then removed, and there would 377 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 1: be pools of what was blood, and of course it 378 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: was turning at that point in time, and it would 379 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: just be writhing with maggots, and you'd have flies buzzing 380 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: all around, and the flies will develop in those areas, 381 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: particularly if it's in direct sunlight. You'll have ants that 382 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: are in that area. You'll have all manner of insect 383 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: life in that area because what are they're seeking out 384 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: while they're seeking out the protein that's contained in that blood, 385 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: and so you'll have this kind of larval development that's 386 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: going on there even in the absence of blood. And 387 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: the reason I'm emphasizing this, and I think that this 388 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting, is that how did the police 389 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: know that this was an area where a violent event 390 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: took place? Because we kind of mentioned this early on 391 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: that the bodies were found in the river. So what's 392 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: going to draw them to that specific location. Was it 393 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: just the sight of blood or was it the fact 394 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: that you had larval development in there and you step 395 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: over that area and the next thing, you know, and 396 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: this is very common as well, and I've had this happen. 397 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: You'll have flies that are actually, you know, in dwelling bodies, 398 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: arresting on bodies, and once you show up, they begin 399 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: to light on you as well. They're coming off of 400 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 1: those bodies or off of that body and lighting on 401 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: your person as an investigator. I don't think any people 402 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: really realize that, and you'll have them crawling all over you. 403 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: And I really wonder if maybe that had happened, or 404 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: maybe it was smell that drew them over there. Because 405 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: blood gives off decompositional odor, just like a body does. 406 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: You can actually catch a whiff of it. I wonder 407 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: if they were drawn there by smell, but something drew 408 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: them there to where they recognize that something horrible had 409 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: happened in that specific location. If this is indeed the 410 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: location where the dismemberment took place, you have the possibility 411 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: of commingling of blood. Walk me through the steps in 412 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,719 Speaker 1: a lab in an autopsy to be able to distinguish 413 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: how many blood types or blood sources that you have. Yeah, 414 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: this is a nightmare, to say the very least. Early 415 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: on As an investigator, you learn that you just don't 416 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 1: work on the assumption that something is what you think 417 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: it is as a result of what you've observed with 418 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: the naked eye. You cannot work on that assumption. And 419 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: so just because you see a red dried spot or 420 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: a red wet spot on a surface, you can think 421 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: in your mind, yeah, that's blood. But would I write 422 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: that in a report without confirming it. No way, no way. 423 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: You never do that. So you have to be able 424 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: to take blood samples from this location. They would have 425 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: taken it. And this is assuming that there is blood there. 426 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: You're going to take blood samples from multiple Let's say 427 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: we have a huge pool of blood. I love the 428 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: fact that you use the term commingle Jackie's that's fantastic 429 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 1: because that's what's going to happen. Blood is very viscous, 430 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 1: but it is a liquid, and so if you've got 431 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: bodies that are layered on top of one another, you 432 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: will have a commingling of blood, particularly if you've got 433 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: gunshot wounds where you've got seepage that's going on, and 434 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,679 Speaker 1: then on top of that, you may have had this 435 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: dismemberment activity that's going on there and you're going to 436 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: generate a volume of blood associated with that. So when 437 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: this blood is essentially collected from the scene, and it 438 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: would be collected in a variety of different locations, multiple 439 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: samples from all over this area, it will be taken 440 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 1: out and it will be typed. Now, the type when 441 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: you begin to type this blood, well, first off, you 442 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: have to confirm that it's blood, and there's a variety 443 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: of tests that we go through to do that. Once 444 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: this unknown substance that you suspect is blood is brought 445 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: back to the lab and examined, at that point in time, 446 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: you're going to conduct a test at the lab to 447 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: confirm that it is in fact blood. And then it's 448 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: at that point in time that once you've made that determination, 449 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to begin the process of 450 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: typing the blood. And there's major groups that we look for. 451 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: We look for we look for B, we look for A, 452 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,400 Speaker 1: we look for A B, and so you can potentially 453 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: have those groups. And if you have, say, for instance, 454 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: two os, you're going to try to determine whether or 455 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: not it's O positive or OH negative, okay, and you'll 456 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: have this commingling that's going on and the trick is 457 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: to try to separate, you know, all of these samples 458 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: and see if there is I think nowadays as well, 459 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: one of the things you have factor in here, is 460 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: there a recoverable DNA out of that blood, Because the 461 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: DNA sample that you're going to get out of that 462 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: blood is going to be far more specific than just, say, 463 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: for instance, a blood type. Doctor Carl Landsteiner Universe identified 464 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: how to type blood, you know, back in the eighteen hundreds. 465 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: It's nothing new. It's something we've been doing for a 466 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: long time. It's just that it's taken a while for 467 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: it to kind of develop to the point now where yeah, 468 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: the blood is essentially a medium for us to get 469 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 1: to the DNA and that's where the real tale is 470 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: going to be told. The process itself is very very 471 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: complicated in order to separate it out to this specific point, 472 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: and you will they will in fact do blood typing 473 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: tests that are very specific and react to particular types 474 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: of blood, so you will get a specific indicator in 475 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: this test that it is in fact a pause, a nag, pause, neeg. 476 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: The trick is to go back and since you have 477 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: known victims, now that you've recovered the bodies, you have 478 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: to try to understand who these individuals are. If you 479 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: know who they are, and you already know from an 480 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: anti morm before death standpoint who they are, maybe the 481 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: family or maybe the hospital will know what their blood 482 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: type is. And at that point in time, once it's 483 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: separated out and once you identify the individual types, that's 484 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: at that point that you can then tip back to 485 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: the individual bodies and hopefully you can retrieve DNA from it. 486 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: Not all blood types are interchangeable. You know this from 487 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: trying to give blood. There is a universal donor, but 488 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: if you are at an a you can't give blood 489 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: to somebody who's not. So when you retrieve a sample 490 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: from the ground from a body from anywhere and it 491 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: is too different blood types, What does that look like 492 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: on a slide or how you look at them? Does 493 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: it separate, does it blend it? What does it do? Well, 494 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: it's going to be at a molecular level, and you 495 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: will be able to identify by these markers that are 496 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: contained on the surface of the red blood cell itself, 497 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: and this is going to what's called the rh factor 498 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: in the blood, and so they will present in a 499 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: very particular way that is unique to that particular blood type, 500 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: and that's the way you can identify them in testing 501 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: in the laboratory, so to kind of pull them apart. 502 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: And one of the problems with comingling of blood is 503 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: that the blood itself begins to literally separate as it 504 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: goes through the process of decomposition. So you'll you'll have 505 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: the blood cells begin to separate away, the RBC's red 506 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: blood cells, they begin to separate away from the serum, 507 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: and you'll see this kind of migration that takes place. 508 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: You can see it really well on a floor, like 509 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: on a solid smooth floor surface. You'll see the serum 510 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: that when it separates out, it's got kind of a 511 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: yellow color to it, and there's a time factor that's 512 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: associated with that, and a lot of people have opined 513 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: that potentially, when you have exposed blood on surfaces like this, 514 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: that this is a way to determine post mortem interval, 515 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 1: but they haven't been able to kind of lock that 516 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: down to the point where they can use that as 517 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: a mechanism for that purpose. But once those blood cells 518 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: are separated out and they are collected, it's at that 519 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: point that the testing can be done and then the 520 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: specific blood types by virtue of the rh factor that 521 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: they're tested for. You know, where these little antigens set 522 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: up on the cells themselves, you'll be able to determine 523 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: what type of blood it is and from whom it originated. 524 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: M y'aller would catch a glimpse out of something out 525 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: of the corner of your eye, maybe when you're going 526 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: down the road. You can't believe that possibly you just 527 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: saw what you think you saw, or maybe just walking 528 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: down the street. That's happened to me many times, and 529 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: it's almost like you want to back up and confirm 530 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: what your eyes saw, and your brain is saying no, no, no, 531 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: no, no no, there's no way you saw that. You want 532 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: to maybe hang a euey and go back and see 533 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: if if that was real. For that moment, I can 534 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: not begin to imagine what it would be like to 535 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: be a civilian driving down the road and look over 536 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: maybe the edge of the bridge and look down into 537 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: that muddy water and see something that just didn't fit. 538 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: And that's pretty much what happened. The bodies were discovered 539 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: after someone called police saying they saw something, but we're 540 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: not sure were what they saw, and they needed police 541 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: to go check it out. And that's how it was 542 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: discovered that these bodies were dismembered. Paint a picture for 543 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: me of what that could have possibly been, Joe. It's 544 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: not been released yet, but I mean, are we looking 545 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: at what a bone sticking up at this point? I mean, 546 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: would whatever the person saw have been skeletonized by this point, 547 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: not in this shorter period of time. Maybe what they 548 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: had seen may have been a bloated torso when they 549 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: looked over there. Because one of the things that happens 550 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: during the process of decomposition, and you know, you hear 551 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: people talk about bodies being swollen, Well that's true, and 552 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: they're swollen because there is a process that's called holsis 553 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: that's going on in the body, and it's at a 554 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: cellular level. One. Essentially, the body begins to lack of 555 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: a better terminology, the body is beginning to digest itself. 556 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: Well what's the product of digestion, Well, one of the 557 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: products is gas, and so bodies begin to swell. And 558 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: when they swell, they float and you look down and 559 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: I can only imagine through my own mind's eye, you're 560 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: looking into this watery area down there, and you see 561 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: this kind of round, bulbous thing sticking up by the water. 562 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: And I've come across bodies like this before, and you 563 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: look down and you see this odd shape in the water, 564 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: and maybe maybe to this person it looked like a body. 565 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: They didn't know, but I do know this. They went 566 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: and contacted the authorities that said, look y'all got to 567 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,479 Speaker 1: get down here and check this out, because it's not 568 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: just one thing I'm seeing. I'm seeing several items down here. 569 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: The question is, I think, what was the depth of 570 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: the water of where these remains were found. Is it 571 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: shallow so that maybe part of the remain was touching 572 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 1: the bottom and then kind of sticking up. And here's 573 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: another interesting kind of proposition. This is on a river, 574 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: and I wonder the Grand Fork. It's like a branch 575 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: of the Canadian River, and the Canadian River is a 576 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: pretty sizeable river in that part of the country. And 577 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: I wonder if there is a dam upstream and they 578 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: had closed the dam off perhaps and the water level 579 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 1: had dropped too, And that's something you can't really kind 580 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: of plan on. And by virtue of the fact that 581 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: they saw these items from a position of height looking 582 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,759 Speaker 1: down on it, Remember they're in a car when they 583 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: see it. Maybe if the perpetrator just simply went to 584 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: the bridge and tossed these items over and decided to 585 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: be done with it, as opposed to say, for instance, 586 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: going out into the water even further and depositing those 587 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: items out there, maybe you wouldn't have seen them as readily, 588 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: but it maybe it was a matter of convenience. And 589 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 1: that can be a clue for you if you're an 590 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: investigator in a case like this, because if you're in 591 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,400 Speaker 1: a car, maybe maybe it's late at night, maybe you've 592 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: accomplished this horrible task of dismembering these bodies and you 593 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: get pull up in your car or your truck and 594 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,839 Speaker 1: you begin to toss them out. Well, when you do that, 595 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: any remnant of blood there would have been blood would 596 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: transfer into the vehicle. So if you find you know 597 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: we were talking about blood just a few months ago, 598 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: if you have find blood that is specific to one 599 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: of these victims that's in the car, you have a 600 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: lot of explaining to do to the authorities. At that 601 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: point in time. You know, you don't know this guy, 602 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: how did his blood make it into your vehicle? And 603 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: they're gonna ask you questions was your vehicle would you 604 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: the entire time yesterday. Did you have the keys? Did 605 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: you lend it to anybody? Because they're going to knock 606 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: down all of those possibilities as far as an alibi goes. 607 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: The cops are going to ask those questions and I'll 608 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: expect to have answers to them. And the trick is, 609 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: you have to get your hands on that vehicle as 610 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: soon as you can as an investigator, so that it's 611 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: not cleaned up or there's an attempt to eradicate anything 612 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: in there, and then go through that vehicle to find 613 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: toothcomb and find any kind of human remain that might 614 00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: be in there, whether it's tissue. You know, we're talking 615 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: about a dismemberment here, so you can have bits of tissue, 616 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: you have bits of bone, bone, dust, and of course 617 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: you didn't have blood as well. The information released on 618 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: the depths of these four men tell us that they 619 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,959 Speaker 1: were shot and dismembered. Once the bodies are recovered, how 620 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: does those two facts interfere with finding out what happened? 621 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: It can be a gigantic roadblock for you because most 622 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: of the cases of dismemberment that I've that I've either 623 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: worked or have observed as working in a morgue or 624 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: certainly unseen as an investigator. They don't come off with 625 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: surgical precision. The perpetrators generally cut wherever it's convenient for them, 626 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: where they think they need to do it. Now, if 627 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: you have somebody, and this is a real thing, if 628 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: you have somebody that has a background in butchering the 629 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: meat before pigs, cows, that sort of thing, they're going 630 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: to know what types of instruments to show up with. 631 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: But for the most part, these are not surgical cuts 632 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: that are being done. There are a lot of times 633 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: where you'll find, say, for instance, if somebody has been 634 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: blasted with a shotgun and they are dismembered, say, for instance, 635 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: they're blasting in the leg. Well, automatically, if you're the 636 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: person doing the dismemberment, a goodly portion of your job 637 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: at that point could have already been done for you. 638 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: You're just going to have to saw through the bone. 639 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: You're not going to have to cut through the legs, 640 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: So it'll be a very atypical kind of incision. And 641 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: also sawing that goes on in the dismemberment process, so 642 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 1: it's going to be very randomized. And so if you 643 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: have wounds bullet wounds that are tracking through the body. 644 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, you've got somebody that's shot in 645 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: the back and it's tracking from say above to below 646 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,399 Speaker 1: and from right to left. It goes across what's called 647 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: the media stynem, which is like the mid part of 648 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,799 Speaker 1: the body, and it exits out of the rib well, 649 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 1: it comes in on the right rear and exits oude 650 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: of the front left out of a rib cage. Then, 651 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: in order for the individual to do that dissection them, 652 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: I say, well, hey, I'll just I'll cut across the 653 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: trunk of the body. Well, when you start to get 654 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: into the trunk of the body, it's at that point 655 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,399 Speaker 1: in time that you've disrupted that bullet path, and so 656 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: it's hard to make heads or tails out of it. 657 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: And then you know, if you have individuals. One of 658 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: the things that I found kind of curious over the 659 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,439 Speaker 1: years is that with dismemberment cases, it's amazing how many 660 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: cases that we have where the heads are missing. And 661 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: some people will say, well, serial killers will do that 662 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,040 Speaker 1: and take them as trophies. Yeah, they do. But if 663 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: you have heads that have been taken off of bodies, 664 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 1: sometimes individuals, the heads will be separated in the sense 665 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640 Speaker 1: that they're dismembered or removed from the rest of the body, 666 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: but they'll also get separated in disposal. So if you've 667 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 1: got a subject that has been shot in the head, 668 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: you might not be able to account for that gunshot 669 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: wound that they have and that's gone. You know, it's 670 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: not like it's just going to be there necessarily nestled 671 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,439 Speaker 1: against the rest of the remains, unless, of course their 672 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: packaged together. That hearkens back to any number of cases 673 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: that are out there where heads were missing off some 674 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: pretty infamous cases. So you're not going to have everything 675 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: in total, and of course you know that that's going 676 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: to create also another problem, how in the world, how 677 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: in the world do you get all of these parts 678 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: back together again? When it comes to retrieving the body parts, 679 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: how is it done? Each part is transported to the 680 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: morgue or the coroner's office wherever the autopsy is going 681 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: to be done or the body is going to be stored. 682 00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: But I'm confused if you want a body heart to 683 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 1: not sweat and stay pristine. As we've talked before about 684 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: bagging hands, you use paper, but body bags are plastic 685 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,359 Speaker 1: or rubber. What's the difference. Wow, you just made a point, 686 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: Jackie that not many people pick up on. We do 687 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: talk about using paper as opposed to plastic one, And 688 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,280 Speaker 1: isn't it interesting? And I'm not trying to diminish the dead, 689 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,240 Speaker 1: but what I am saying is that with a body, 690 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: the deceased or the remains of the deceased are essentially 691 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence that you have. So what 692 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: do we do well? Practice has always been that you 693 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: look for those points of contact that are the higher 694 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: probability or harvest evidence from. So that's why we bagged 695 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,320 Speaker 1: the hands. Specifically, I've bagged heads before that are attached 696 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: to the bodies. In this case, when you have a dismemberment, 697 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: my suspicion is is that you would take a clean 698 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: white sheet and you would individually wrap each dismembered portion 699 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 1: of the body. Okay, there's no way, I mean no 700 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: way at the scene that if you've got these dispersed 701 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: over what would be called a field and evidence field 702 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: lying on the bottom down there, there's no way at 703 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,720 Speaker 1: the scene that you can kind of reassemble the body 704 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: out there that the conditions are not conducive to that. 705 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: And like you said in Oklahoma where they have a 706 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: state Medical Examiner's office. It is going to be incumbent 707 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: to get all of those pieces wrapped. I don't know 708 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: if they use bags paperbacks, but you would wrap them 709 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 1: certainly in clean white sheet individually and then place them 710 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: into a body bag. And that's the way it happens. 711 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: And yes, they are rubberized plastic, and you would get 712 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: them to the mortga as soon as you can. And 713 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 1: it's at that point in time that you can begin 714 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: to try to make a determination as to who goes 715 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 1: with what part at that point in time, and how 716 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: do you do that? Yeah, it's tough. One of the 717 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,799 Speaker 1: interesting things here is if we can just kind of 718 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,120 Speaker 1: back up a little bit, is that we know that 719 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: the bodies were dismembered. Okay, that's been stated clearly, So 720 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: how were they dismembered? What tool was utilized? Let's say 721 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: you're talking like with a sharp edged instrument that it's 722 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: more of a crushing instrument, where we're talking about a mall, 723 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: which is like an axe, but it also looks like 724 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: a sledgehammer on one side and an axe head on 725 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: the other. Tremendous crushing injury with that way, if you 726 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: slam down onto a body with a mall. You're not 727 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: going to have a clean cut. As a matter of fact, 728 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: You're going to crush the bone, okay, And it would 729 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 1: be very difficult I think, at least just from the 730 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 1: skeletal perspective, to marry that bone up with the attachment 731 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: save an arm is taken away at near the shoulder, 732 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: it would be hard to say, mid humorous. It would 733 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: be very difficult to marry that up if it's a 734 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: crushing type of instrument, whereas if you use a hack saw, 735 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: it will leave specific identifying marks and it's almost like 736 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,000 Speaker 1: putting a puzzle together, and you have to think of 737 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: it that way in the morgue, and you would take 738 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot of time to see if you can actually 739 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: get this thing to kind of marry up with the 740 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 1: marks that are left behind, and it would be that simple. 741 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,080 Speaker 1: Certainly a more scientific approach, and I suspect that they 742 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,919 Speaker 1: probably did this because the medical examiner in a state 743 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: of alcohol is very sophisticated. I would imagine that they 744 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: would do DNA sampling from each one of these remains, 745 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean, every single piece that has been dismembered, and 746 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: they would wait for those results to come back before 747 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: they actually essentially marshal all of the pieces back together 748 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: again and then release the bodies to the families. You know, 749 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,959 Speaker 1: one thing that we did not touch on about recovery 750 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 1: of these bodies. You know, for me, this is there's 751 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: something disturbing about this. And I have to give a 752 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 1: tip of the cap to police divers, particularly those that 753 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: are skilled at crime scene underwater crime scene. When you're 754 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: in a river like Grand Fork up there in Oklahoma. 755 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: That river, if you go into that river, I would 756 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: suspect that if you held your hand up in front 757 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: of your face, you would not be able to see 758 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,359 Speaker 1: it six inches out. It's that muddy most of the time, 759 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: and these remains are kind of floating about maybe someone 760 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: we're resting on the bottom. So I guess what the 761 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 1: divers have to do. This is a feel event where 762 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: they go in there and they are going to actually 763 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: feel along the bottom and maybe they're submerged and they're 764 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: kind of crawling along the bottom and touching all of 765 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,839 Speaker 1: these spaces, and they literally have to do it with 766 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: a certain amount of precision, just like we do at 767 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: a crime scene. But can you imagine working a crime 768 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,480 Speaker 1: scene blind because that's what they're doing. They have to 769 00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,800 Speaker 1: document each one of these dismembered remains where they rest, 770 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: and I've seen them where they'll take actual and really 771 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,560 Speaker 1: deep water. What they'll do is they will attach these 772 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: little flags that have little booies on them to float 773 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 1: on the surface, and they'll attach them to the bottom 774 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: and you'll see these flags I'll come floating out there 775 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,759 Speaker 1: in the water, and they'll snap a picture of that, 776 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: and it gives you an idea of the kind of 777 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,319 Speaker 1: the disbursement pattern that's going on. And then of course 778 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: they're skilled at underwater photography, but how are you going 779 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,799 Speaker 1: to accomplish that task when you can't see your hand 780 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 1: in front of your face? So you know, this is 781 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: in fact a crime scene and you have to document it. 782 00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: You have to document it carefully and try to determine 783 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: where each one of these pieces rest out there. And 784 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: once they're collected, of course, you know, you go through 785 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: the process that we talked about getting these remains back 786 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: to the State Medical Examiner's office so they can begin 787 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 1: the process of putting them together and ultimately trying to 788 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: determine what happened and when it happened. As it stands, 789 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: right now, a person of interest is being questioned, but 790 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: he is not considered a suspect as yet. And that 791 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 1: man is Joe Kennedy. Again, he is a person of interest, 792 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 1: he has not been named a suspect. I'm Joseph Scott 793 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: Borger and this is bodybags.