Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's
Speaker 2: External Exam, we are going to talk to a real
Speaker 2: CSI who was a CSI before CSI was cool, and
Speaker 2: her name is Alena Burrows. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Alena is a former CSI as well as a forensic
Speaker 2: consultant and host of Crime Scene Confidential on the ID Channel,
Speaker 2: which is super cool and we'll talk about a little
Speaker 2: bit later, but before we get into that, can you
Speaker 2: please tell us how you got into this field.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I didn't really even know that crime sated
Speaker 3: investigation was a thing because I started crime Scene a
Speaker 3: little bit previous to all of the shows, which is
Speaker 3: I think how the world was really introduced to crime
Speaker 3: scene being an actual job. You know, before that, everybody
Speaker 3: thought it was just part of what detectives did or
Speaker 3: what police did. Nobody really knew crime scene investigation was
Speaker 3: a field in its own right. Sorry, if you can
Speaker 3: hear sirens, like right on queue. So I was actually
Speaker 3: in college working on my undergrad degree and my family business.
Speaker 3: My father is an industrial organizational psychologist and that's kind
Speaker 3: of a fancy term for the psychology of how big
Speaker 3: business operates, how they select the right people for the job,
Speaker 3: how they hire people, how they fire people, and how
Speaker 3: business operates in general. And he was doing basically looking
Speaker 3: at how police agencies selected the appropriate people for the job.
Speaker 3: And I went to work for him, and I started
Speaker 3: reading all the general operating procedures and standard operating procedures
Speaker 3: for law enforcement, and I kind of always gravitated to
Speaker 3: the crime scene procedures and I just thought, you know,
Speaker 3: I think this is this is what I want to do.
Speaker 3: And I called the local sheriff's office for you know,
Speaker 3: the town kind of where I lived, and I said, well,
Speaker 3: what do you need to do? What do you need
Speaker 3: to have? Education background, you know, what do you need
Speaker 3: to have to basically be able to work there? And
Speaker 3: they said, you need four years basically of either crime
Speaker 3: scene experience or a four year degree in a hard science. Well,
Speaker 3: I already had a four year degree, but it was
Speaker 3: in communication, which is not a hard science. So I said, okay,
Speaker 3: but looking at like all my background in the science
Speaker 3: classes I had in the four year degree, what if
Speaker 3: I got a master's degree in a science. So with
Speaker 3: that two years of you know, the master's degree plus
Speaker 3: what I already had, you know, would that be enough?
Speaker 3: And they said, yeah, as long as you've got four
Speaker 3: year combination. So lacking any experience in crime scene, it's
Speaker 3: kind of like the old catch twenty two. How do
Speaker 3: you get a job without experience? How do you get
Speaker 3: experience without a job. A master's degree was really going
Speaker 3: to be my only way to get my foot in
Speaker 3: the door. So I went and I got my master's
Speaker 3: degree in nine months. I did it in three semesters,
Speaker 3: which was, you know, kind of how I do everything,
Speaker 3: which is just throw myself all in. And I came
Speaker 3: back and I said, all right, I got my master's
Speaker 3: Can I can I apply for the job?
Speaker 2: Now? That's so cool. I love that. I love these
Speaker 2: stories of like back in the day when there was
Speaker 2: no Internet and we actually had to make phone calls
Speaker 2: and talk to real people to get answers. There wasn't
Speaker 2: just Google. So I love that because I feel like
Speaker 2: when you work really hard to get where you're at,
Speaker 2: it's it just it just says something. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: So did you have to do? You have to so
Speaker 2: for my job, for instance, you have to go to college,
Speaker 2: but then after you graduate, you also have to get
Speaker 2: a certification to do the job. Is there any kind
Speaker 2: of certification to be a crime scene investigator?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you can't learn what you need to know
Speaker 3: about being a crime scene investigator from a book. Right,
Speaker 3: there are some traits I think that will assist you
Speaker 3: in the job, right, being detail oriented. You know, we
Speaker 3: write a lot of reports, so you know, written communication
Speaker 3: skills are great to have. We testify court, Oral communication
Speaker 3: skills are great to have, presentation skills, but a lot
Speaker 3: of what we do you have to learn. You know,
Speaker 3: you have to learn on the job. So there's a
Speaker 3: field training program when you get into it. But there
Speaker 3: are an incredible amount of schools that crime scene investigators
Speaker 3: go to because so much of the learning is very
Speaker 3: niche to the job. You know, we have to understand
Speaker 3: bullet trajectory, blood stained pattern analysis. There are schools for
Speaker 3: how to recover buried bodies. There's schools for how to
Speaker 3: deal with surface skeletons, you know, skeletal remains that are
Speaker 3: on the surface that may be spread out, Forensic anthropology schools.
Speaker 3: There's schools for botany, there are schools for insets. There
Speaker 3: are so many different little kind of intricate areas of
Speaker 3: forensics for forensic specialties that when you are a CSI,
Speaker 3: you very much need to be a jack of all trades.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because when I first I didn't really know
Speaker 2: anything about the field either. Obviously when I started and
Speaker 2: when I interned at the Medical Examiner, they have actual
Speaker 2: investigators that work at the Medical Examiner's office that I
Speaker 2: just thought there was one such thing as a crime
Speaker 2: scene person and I thought they did it, and no,
Speaker 2: they just do it relating to the body itself. So
Speaker 2: they go and take pictures and then they try to
Speaker 2: interview the family to see like if the person was
Speaker 2: on any medications or if they left a suicide note
Speaker 2: or something like that. And then there's like this whole
Speaker 2: other department which is what you do, which is doing
Speaker 2: ballistics and blood spatter and all that to actually work
Speaker 2: on the investigation of the crime itself. So I know
Speaker 2: that you've definitely have had your hands in all this
Speaker 2: just doing this for so many years, But do you
Speaker 2: have a specific thing that you're like, that's my favorite
Speaker 2: part of all of this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think every crime scene investigator kind of gravitates
Speaker 3: towards one particular arena and they find something that they
Speaker 3: really love and then they find something that they find,
Speaker 3: you know, more tedious. And the IAI, which to answer
Speaker 3: your previous question, certifies crime scene investigators. So there is
Speaker 3: kind of like a governing body and that's the International
Speaker 3: Association for Identification. So it's kind of like how attorneys
Speaker 3: have the bar exam. Crime scene investigators have the IAI,
Speaker 3: So there is an overall and then each state has
Speaker 3: their state kind of IAI, and they provide training to
Speaker 3: crime scene investigators. They also provide certifications, so even a
Speaker 3: crime scene investigator that gets training through their agency can
Speaker 3: also get certifications through the IAI, so you can kind
Speaker 3: of come in green and then you can become a
Speaker 3: certified crime scene investigator. You can become a certified crime
Speaker 3: scene analyst, you can become a certified Senior crime Scene Analyst,
Speaker 3: and those are the kind of certifications that a crime
Speaker 3: scene investigator can obtain. And you know that that works
Speaker 3: really well when you go to court and you can
Speaker 3: testify and say that you hold those certifications and those
Speaker 3: you can also get specialty certifications through the IAI. So
Speaker 3: if there's something that you really find interesting, you can
Speaker 3: seek certification. But you know, I think I always gravitated
Speaker 3: towards forensic anthropology, Like I loved that aspect of it,
Speaker 3: and I love the aspect of blood stained pattern analysis
Speaker 3: because to me, it reads like a book. If you
Speaker 3: know what you're looking for, if you know what you're
Speaker 3: looking at, you can you can look at the blood
Speaker 3: and it tells you somebody has been traveling through here,
Speaker 3: or what direction somebody is going, And I just I
Speaker 3: find that so incredibly interesting.
Speaker 2: It is really cool when you when you say it
Speaker 2: like that, it is. It's really interesting, and it's cool
Speaker 2: when you can look at something and tell something and
Speaker 2: when everybody else looks at it, they're just like, well,
Speaker 2: it's just a bunch of blood on the ground, exactly like.
Speaker 3: And you can you can tell to a degree how
Speaker 3: many blows or what type of instrument in there's patterns, right,
Speaker 3: shoe tracks certainly in blood. But if somebody you know,
Speaker 3: used say a hammer, and then they laid that down
Speaker 3: and they took it with them, you could see potentially
Speaker 3: the imprint of that weapon that was left behind in blood.
Speaker 3: So even if they took the weapon with them, you
Speaker 3: might see what that weapon was, even if it weren't
Speaker 3: at the scene, you could see it. If it was
Speaker 3: a screwdriver, if it was a hammer. There are all
Speaker 3: kinds of clues that can be left behind about the weapon,
Speaker 3: the victim, and the suspect through blood. So I always
Speaker 3: liked bloodstained pattern analysis.
Speaker 2: That's that's so cool. It's really really cool. So you
Speaker 2: did say that you have testified it. You guys have
Speaker 2: to testify at court. That's that's normal part of your job.
Speaker 2: Have you ever been involved in any high profile cases
Speaker 2: that you're allowed to talk about or can maybe give
Speaker 2: us kind of some of an example of something that
Speaker 2: you did at the job and then you later went
Speaker 2: to court to testify on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, certainly a court testimony is a huge
Speaker 3: part of what the crime scene investigator does because that is,
Speaker 3: you know, the ultimate reason that we do what we do.
Speaker 3: You know, the crimescene investigator documents the scene through notes,
Speaker 3: through photographs, through observations. If it doesn't get translated to
Speaker 3: a report, it in a way it didn't happen. Because
Speaker 3: if you get there on the stand and they can
Speaker 3: only question you through the photographs that you took, the
Speaker 3: notes that you took, that become ultimately your report. You
Speaker 3: know if they ask you, oh, well, you know, did
Speaker 3: such and such happen and you go, yeah, actually it did,
Speaker 3: and they say, well, I don't see it in your
Speaker 3: report where you documented that. Oh well I didn't document,
Speaker 3: but I remember it. Well, if you haven't notated that,
Speaker 3: it didn't happen. So your job is to create that report.
Speaker 3: You are testifying to a report. So courtroom testimony, in
Speaker 3: the end, is everything. That is your ultimate job is
Speaker 3: that you are a witness to a crime for the state.
Speaker 3: That is your job as an investigator. So in the end,
Speaker 3: your courtroom testimony is actually everything. So testimony is a
Speaker 3: huge part of what an investigator does. It is our
Speaker 3: job to become a voice for the victim as a
Speaker 3: witness for them on their behalf, and to speak and
Speaker 3: translate what we saw and to translate the evidence in
Speaker 3: a way that the jury will understand it. Right. So
Speaker 3: I can't just get up on the stand and say
Speaker 3: well I saw this, and you know I took DNA
Speaker 3: swabs or I did this or that. That's not my job.
Speaker 3: My job is to translate physically what I did in
Speaker 3: a way that the jury understands it. That's their job.
Speaker 3: Their job is to make a decision about somebody's guilt
Speaker 3: or innocence potentially. So my job is, yes to say
Speaker 3: what I did in an impartial method or in a
Speaker 3: partial manner, but they have to understand what I did.
Speaker 2: I went to court a couple times with the medical
Speaker 2: Examiner when I was in school, and I don't like,
Speaker 2: do they do they train you and how to be
Speaker 2: on the stand and what it's like to have a
Speaker 2: really aggressive lawyer in your face because one of the
Speaker 2: cases I went on, it was clear that this guy
Speaker 2: strangled this woman to death with his hands, and I
Speaker 2: couldn't believe the lawyer on his side how they were
Speaker 2: grilling the medical Examiner's office as if they did something wrong.
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my god. If I was
Speaker 2: up there, I think I would be really intimidated. Do
Speaker 2: they do they kind of grill you before you do
Speaker 2: stuff like that?
Speaker 3: I think it probably depends on the agency, you know.
Speaker 3: You know, I think part of my field training program
Speaker 3: was that you did go to court and watch another
Speaker 3: crime scene investigator testify. But it largely depends on what
Speaker 3: you observe. You know, were they grilled, you know, was
Speaker 3: it an easy case or a difficult case, Was it
Speaker 3: a burglary or a homicide? You know, kind of is
Speaker 3: luck of the draw. It also depends on your own
Speaker 3: personality type. You have to understand in court that that
Speaker 3: is the job of you know, defense attorneys or cross
Speaker 3: examination is their job ultimate job is to make you
Speaker 3: look like you did not do your job right. I've
Speaker 3: been asked ridiculous questions on this stand right if I
Speaker 3: you know, I took aerial photographs and a helicopter and
Speaker 3: I was asked if I was flying the helicopter while
Speaker 3: I was taking the photographs. And you know what kind
Speaker 3: of training in I'm a very sarcastic person, and you know,
Speaker 3: in my head, my first instinct is to be funnier,
Speaker 3: to say, yeah, you know, I was flying the helicopter
Speaker 3: with my knees while I leaned out into So, you know,
Speaker 3: they ask questions like did you take an air sample
Speaker 3: to prove that a battery had occurred? And the thing
Speaker 3: that I know is that that doesn't occur. That's not
Speaker 3: valid forensic science. The thing that the jury doesn't know
Speaker 3: is that that's not valid forensic science. The defense attorney's
Speaker 3: job is to make me look bad and to ask
Speaker 3: me as many questions in a row as possible that
Speaker 3: I have to say no to so that in the
Speaker 3: end the jury goes, gosh, is she very good at
Speaker 3: her job? Like did she she didn't even take an
Speaker 3: air sample? The jury doesn't know that that's not valid
Speaker 3: forensic science. We don't do that. Like would I be
Speaker 3: running through the scene with a ziploc bag trying to
Speaker 3: collect how does that even occur? So it's it's a challenge.
Speaker 3: You just have to stay calm and answer the questions
Speaker 3: as calmly as possible and not make yourself look worse
Speaker 3: by being combative or sarcastic on the stand, even though
Speaker 3: in the head you're going, what the actual.
Speaker 2: So you're like, I dated a dude like this before.
Speaker 2: This guy's a tool. I want to just like that's yeah.
Speaker 3: Actually, And I mean I have you know before just
Speaker 3: said uh, I've turned to the jury and just said
Speaker 3: that's not a thing.
Speaker 2: I love that. That's so great. So I guess a
Speaker 2: lot of this. You started working as a CSI before
Speaker 2: we said like before it was cool. You have a
Speaker 2: T shirt that says that, which I love that. But
Speaker 2: so CSI show comes out, and so I guess I
Speaker 2: was in my twenties when it came out. I remember
Speaker 2: I was still living at my mom's house and I
Speaker 2: would come home from school and my parents would be
Speaker 2: sitting on the couch watching this stupid show, and I
Speaker 2: would just get so annoyed of how it makes it
Speaker 2: look so glamorous. Their lab is beautiful, They're all beautiful.
Speaker 2: They solve a crime in an hour. They have unlimited resources,
Speaker 2: and as you and I know, like when a person dies,
Speaker 2: there's no money. They don't care to spend money to
Speaker 2: help you out investigating this kind of stuff. So what
Speaker 2: kind of an impact have you seen over the course
Speaker 2: of your career? And also, just like teaching forensic students,
Speaker 2: do they come in thinking that that's legit, what it's
Speaker 2: going to be.
Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, there's been both good and bad. I think impacts.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, to start off with the good,
Speaker 3: I will say that it got an entire generation of
Speaker 3: people interested in forensic science. And if it gets people
Speaker 3: invigorated and interested in the real science behind it, that's fantastic. Right.
Speaker 3: If it gets people interested in stems then you know,
Speaker 3: and gets them interested in pursuing a career in the
Speaker 3: real forensic science, then that's fantastic. You know, maybe there
Speaker 3: were a lot of people that ordinarily would not have
Speaker 3: pursued a science career but thought, hey, maybe this might
Speaker 3: be for me. Then I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 2: And do these people though, then some because I've had
Speaker 2: this happen to like the students will start and then
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my god, I can't really handle the
Speaker 2: reality of what this is. This is really a hard
Speaker 2: job to do.
Speaker 3: Some Yeah, I think there's a natural weeding out process though,
Speaker 3: of anybody that goes into a career, you know, like
Speaker 3: that some are going to continue on, they'll push themselves,
Speaker 3: and then some will say I don't think I can
Speaker 3: do this. I've seen that in the career in general.
Speaker 3: When it comes to dealing with deceased individuals. There are
Speaker 3: a lot of people that go and they think crime
Speaker 3: scene is cool, they go into it, and then they say,
Speaker 3: I don't think I can do this. I have nightmares,
Speaker 3: I'm afraid to be alone in my home or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know, crime scene is not for everybody.
Speaker 2: So speaking of that, have you ever had any I mean,
Speaker 2: I know the answer to this, I'm sure, but do
Speaker 2: you ever have any emotions attached to the case or
Speaker 2: like I know, for example, people ask me, when you
Speaker 2: would do an autopsy on a baby, do you cry?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, why would I cry? That's ridiculous,
Speaker 2: Like I'm doing my job. Yeah, if I cried, that
Speaker 2: wouldn't be effective. So I'm sure you're the same way.
Speaker 2: But do you ever go home and get bothered by shit?
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah, I learned very early on. I'm an mpath
Speaker 3: and I learned very early on that I had to
Speaker 3: shut it off. And it was a very beneficial skill
Speaker 3: for me just in life in general. I think learning
Speaker 3: how it was hard for me, I think to learn
Speaker 3: how to turn things on and off, and crime scene
Speaker 3: actually taught me that skill of learning how to shut
Speaker 3: it off. And because I think I remember in the
Speaker 3: very beginning, I had the emotions right, you'd feel it,
Speaker 3: and then you'd be like, oh, not the place right,
Speaker 3: not the place, not the time, you know, just being
Speaker 3: at a crime you know, I think in your field,
Speaker 3: you're you're removed. It's very clinical, they're gone, right, and
Speaker 3: that helps a bit. And I would be standing in
Speaker 3: the living room of a house where the family is
Speaker 3: saying goodbye, right, and you know, brothers and mothers are
Speaker 3: saying goodbye to their loved ones. They're crying, and I
Speaker 3: felt very out of place, like this is intrusive. I
Speaker 3: shouldn't be here, and I have to be right, it's
Speaker 3: my job. But now I'm standing in somebody's living room
Speaker 3: and somebody has, you know, maybe committed suicide. And I
Speaker 3: see all the signs of struggle that they were really
Speaker 3: trying to not get to that point.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: You see the self help books, you see prescription meds,
Speaker 3: you see maybe notes that they had written to themselves.
Speaker 3: You see the struggle that they had gone through for
Speaker 3: so long that they didn't want this and to just
Speaker 3: kind of get to that. And then having like a
Speaker 3: wife laying over her husband pray, crying and reading a
Speaker 3: suicide note out loud, and I'm just standing there like.
Speaker 2: Eh no, And You're like, what am I supposed to
Speaker 2: do right now? Like should I hold their hands? Should
Speaker 2: I just it here? And like act like and I
Speaker 2: try to figure.
Speaker 3: I try to be invisible, you know, because, as you know,
Speaker 3: a law enforcement I have to be there to ensure,
Speaker 3: you know, that the body is not hampered with in
Speaker 3: any way, but also as a human, I'm trying to
Speaker 3: allow her that time to grieve and say goodbye, and
Speaker 3: so it's just you have to figure out how to
Speaker 3: be both human and an investigator. And I think a
Speaker 3: lot of my journey just in life and the TV
Speaker 3: show and everything, is understanding that you can be both,
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of investigators end up deciding
Speaker 3: you can't be both. And I think that's how we
Speaker 3: have some problematic investigations, is people just go, no, can't
Speaker 3: be human anymore, shut it off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, when there's always so much more to the story.
Speaker 2: It's you see that all the time, both in medicine
Speaker 2: and forensics. I remember when I was a student, I
Speaker 2: went on a suicide scene and it was crazy that
Speaker 2: the guy was the husband, had shot himself upstairs in
Speaker 2: the bedroom and the wife was downstairs and met us
Speaker 2: at the door crying. It just was so awkward, and
Speaker 2: that what the investigator that I was with went upstairs
Speaker 2: and kind of left me downstairs with the wife, and
Speaker 2: it was the same thing. I was just like sitting there, like,
Speaker 2: what do I say, Am I supposed to talk to
Speaker 2: this lady?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: It just was so awkward. And when we went upstairs
Speaker 2: and took all the pictures and everything, then we said Okay,
Speaker 2: we're going to take the body to the medical examiners. Now,
Speaker 2: his brains and pieces of his skull were all over
Speaker 2: the pillow in the wall, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: are we gonna clean this up? And they're like, no,
Speaker 2: she's got to call somebody that And I thought how
Speaker 2: upsetting that was for her, that she had to go
Speaker 2: up there and see her husband's brain on her linens.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it is hard to disassociate from that
Speaker 2: because you're a real person that has family and friends
Speaker 2: and everything, and it's just it's really cool. But it's
Speaker 2: cool that there's people like you that can turn it
Speaker 2: off but also keep it on a little bit to
Speaker 2: help investigate things. So let's talk about your your TV show.
Speaker 2: How how'd you get that gig? Because it sounds it
Speaker 2: sounds so cool you get to host your own TV show.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know my background obviously with crime scene.
Speaker 3: I taught forensic science, so I did a lot of
Speaker 3: public speaking where I would teach and I was at
Speaker 3: a you know, a public speaking event and I did
Speaker 3: not know, but I guess there was a there was
Speaker 3: a scout in the audience. And I came back from
Speaker 3: that event and got a message and said, you know,
Speaker 3: would you be interested in, uh, you know, in putting
Speaker 3: together something a pitch for a television show, you know,
Speaker 3: And I thought about it. You know, this wasn't anything
Speaker 3: that I had ever, This wasn't the goal. I wasn't
Speaker 3: you know, out trying to get a television show. But teaching,
Speaker 3: I think has always been my passion and having people understand,
Speaker 3: you know, how crime scene work and getting people interested
Speaker 3: in the science. And I thought about it, and like,
Speaker 3: the path that I have taken has always been trying
Speaker 3: to get more and more people to understand and help,
Speaker 3: you know, help people, help victims, be that voice, and
Speaker 3: get a larger audience. And I thought, well, you know,
Speaker 3: this is a way to teach a larger audience potentially,
Speaker 3: right if I had this a show, I think maybe
Speaker 3: more people would understand forensic science, maybe more people would
Speaker 3: get interested in it, and you know, potentially have more
Speaker 3: victims get their stories out there. So I thought about it,
Speaker 3: and it was a it was a long process. It
Speaker 3: took about eighteen months of developing a show, and we
Speaker 3: developed it together with me in mind, you know, the
Speaker 3: concept for crime Scene Confidential. And yeah, then one day
Speaker 3: it happened and I got the phone call and said congratulations,
Speaker 3: you have a TV show. And then immediately set in
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, how do I
Speaker 3: know I can actually, you know, make a TV show.
Speaker 3: But yeah, two seasons later we made a couple of
Speaker 3: seasons of television.
Speaker 2: That's so cool. I went through a similar thing that they,
Speaker 2: you know, when I when my Instagram started blowing up,
Speaker 2: all these people were like, do you want a TV
Speaker 2: show in this? And then same thing, like I had
Speaker 2: never thought about it. And then I went through the
Speaker 2: process and they would come up to me and say,
Speaker 2: all right, well, what do you want your show to
Speaker 2: be about? And then I would tell them my ideas
Speaker 2: because I don't do all forensics. I do all pathology,
Speaker 2: so they just think that there's no interest for medical
Speaker 2: pathology at all. It's just all true crime right now.
Speaker 3: Well I got a little bit of that too. So
Speaker 3: they they did say that the hardest shows to be
Speaker 3: successful are science based, you know, science based and talent driven,
Speaker 3: and so you know that and those are the two
Speaker 3: things that my show, you know, was my big thing
Speaker 3: was when it comes to the true crime genre. You know,
Speaker 3: when you look at true crime, we've we've heard a
Speaker 3: lot of true crime from typically men and typically like detectives,
Speaker 3: and I wanted to introduce a new story right from
Speaker 3: somebody from you know, a different angle. We hadn't heard
Speaker 3: about it from a crime scene investigator, who I will
Speaker 3: argue is closest to the evidence, and we haven't heard
Speaker 3: from it from a female. So I felt like that
Speaker 3: women were a little bit underrepresented in that true crime genre.
Speaker 3: We hadn't heard from it from a stronger female, and
Speaker 3: we hadn't heard from it from somebody that looked like me,
Speaker 3: And I wanted, you know, that out there. I just
Speaker 3: wanted it to be a new face, a new look,
Speaker 3: not not to knock, you know, older white men, but
Speaker 3: kind of heard enough of from older white men.
Speaker 2: It's funny that you say that, because for those of
Speaker 2: you who are listening that aren't watching the video, you're
Speaker 2: you're around my age, you have this really cool pink hair,
Speaker 2: and you just don't look like the typical like woman
Speaker 2: that works in office, you know. So I was going
Speaker 2: to ask you that because I've had horrible experiences with
Speaker 2: my profession and my appearance.
Speaker 3: Have you had the same, Well, So when I was
Speaker 3: in law enforcement, you know, I could not have any
Speaker 3: kind of colored hair. They have policies against that. I
Speaker 3: couldn't have visible tattoos and couldn't have you know, piercings
Speaker 3: that weren't you know, in your ears, So in that
Speaker 3: time period, I didn't have any of that. It's very restrictive.
Speaker 3: So you know, I've always been kind of a push
Speaker 3: the envelope type of person. And you know, when I
Speaker 3: started out in my career, I wanted to be an
Speaker 3: art history major. I've just always been more of an
Speaker 3: artistic type of person. And so when I left law enforcement,
Speaker 3: when I retired from formal law enforcement from being a
Speaker 3: CSI in twenty fifteen, I was like, all right, yeah,
Speaker 3: like gayme on right, I can do what I want
Speaker 3: with my apparits. So when I was in when I
Speaker 3: was a CSI, I had a faux hawk, right, and
Speaker 3: you know, I was on call pretty much twenty four
Speaker 3: to seven. I had to have a hairstyle that I
Speaker 3: could like roll out of bed and go to the
Speaker 3: crime scene, and a fauxhok kind of fit that because
Speaker 3: didn't really matter how I slept, I just woke up
Speaker 3: and went and it looked good. So I had a
Speaker 3: faux hawk. And even then like when I rolled up
Speaker 3: to a crime scene, if the deputy didn't remember my name,
Speaker 3: they would always be like, you know, the the one
Speaker 3: with the and they kind of like pointed to the hair,
Speaker 3: and so they would. I kind of was known for
Speaker 3: my hair back then, and so I always when I
Speaker 3: got I went to get my hair done at this
Speaker 3: really cool salon and this kind of up and coming
Speaker 3: like a hair guy was, you know, next to the
Speaker 3: station next to me, and he was doing all these
Speaker 3: like vivid colors, and I was just that, looks so cool.
Speaker 3: That would be so cool out of fohaks. But I
Speaker 3: couldn't do that, you know, being in law enforcement. And
Speaker 3: so I found out about like hair modeling where all
Speaker 3: these girls got their hair done and they basically didn't
Speaker 3: even pay for it. All they had to do was
Speaker 3: just get it done for the photos for social media,
Speaker 3: and they just didn't really have a say in what
Speaker 3: got done to their hair, but they got it done
Speaker 3: for free. They got you know, they took photos for
Speaker 3: social media, and you know, it was good, and so
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, where do I sign up for that?
Speaker 3: So as soon as I got out of law enforcement,
Speaker 3: I started doing that. And so my hair has been
Speaker 3: probably twenty five different colors. I've had extensions. It's been
Speaker 3: glowing the dark. It's been blue, it's been green, it's
Speaker 3: been striped, it's been pastals, it's been vibrants. And I
Speaker 3: kind of it had landed on pink when I did
Speaker 3: the public speaking event where I got scouted, and so
Speaker 3: it's been pink ever since then. But it's been like
Speaker 3: so many colors and people. So when I was in
Speaker 3: law enforcement, I never had any issue with it, even
Speaker 3: though I still kind of had funky hair, it was pink.
Speaker 3: When I entered the corporate world, nobody gave a damn.
Speaker 3: I don't think now, you know, I was in corporate meetings,
Speaker 3: I was in senior management, you know, in the corporate world,
Speaker 3: and I think more than anything, people kind of rolled
Speaker 3: their eyes because it was always a different culf. It
Speaker 3: would be like a different color like every six weeks,
Speaker 3: because it would change, and you know, I'd be like,
Speaker 3: you know, getting a drink at the fountain, and you know,
Speaker 3: like Carol would be like, oh, I see your hair
Speaker 3: is a different color. But like, aside from that, I
Speaker 3: think people got used to it. They kind of just
Speaker 3: roll their eyes. I think you have to fight. You
Speaker 3: have to be really competent, you have to be really
Speaker 3: good at what you do, and people really probably don't
Speaker 3: care about your hair. But I will say that, you know,
Speaker 3: since the show it Is, it has been my hair
Speaker 3: color has been the number one thing that I've gotten
Speaker 3: the most negative feedback about, And it's been the most
Speaker 3: the number one thing I've gotten the most positive feedback about,
Speaker 3: which therefore proves to just live your life and do
Speaker 3: what you want to do because somebody's gonna say something
Speaker 3: no matter what.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're one hundred percent right. I just don't I
Speaker 2: don't understand. Even when you were talking about your law
Speaker 2: enforcement job, it's like they just arbitrally decided that ear
Speaker 2: rings are cool, Like you could put an earring through
Speaker 2: your ear, but you can't put one through your nose.
Speaker 2: Like how ridiculous is that that they put these limitations
Speaker 2: on things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's ridiculous. If you're competent, you're knowledgeable,
Speaker 3: you're skilled, you know. I don't think any family would
Speaker 3: have any issue if I came in and solved a
Speaker 3: homicide about what color my hair was, right exactly. Really
Speaker 3: don't think that would be the case. And I do
Speaker 3: think it's funny that that's been, you know, the thing
Speaker 3: that I've gotten, it's been very polarizing when it comes to,
Speaker 3: you know, my social media, that people are just like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, we love your hair, and then oh
Speaker 3: my god, I can't even listen to anything that comes
Speaker 3: out of your mouth because you have pink hair. You know,
Speaker 3: like there's a color wheel, right, and pink is on
Speaker 3: the color wheel, and it's like two ticks over from red.
Speaker 3: So I don't understand why anybody feels that, you know,
Speaker 3: red is an acceptable color and pink is not, and
Speaker 3: brown is cool. But it just seems very arbitrary to me.
Speaker 3: And I want to know where do they feel about
Speaker 3: being bald on that spectrum, because.
Speaker 2: I just don't. It's it's so funny, like what, what
Speaker 2: would your hair color have anything to do with how
Speaker 2: good you are at your job. It's just the dumbest
Speaker 2: thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 3: It doesn't And the and really what I've come down
Speaker 3: to is that I'm comfortable with who I am, right,
Speaker 3: I don't really care. I forget that my hair is pink.
Speaker 3: I go out in public, It's just it's hair, right,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. It's really unimportant. In the grand scheme
Speaker 3: of things. But I think that when people feel comfortable
Speaker 3: with themselves, people that are not comfortable with themselves are
Speaker 3: very I don't want to use the word triggered, but
Speaker 3: you know, I think they're very like, why did they
Speaker 3: feel okay being expressive or being who they are when
Speaker 3: I'm not okay with that? I think it's very like
Speaker 3: it pokes the bear a little bit with people that
Speaker 3: don't feel okay with being who they are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you one hundred percent. It's just
Speaker 2: it's funny because I even see the transition. Like when
Speaker 2: I worked in the hospital when I was younger. I
Speaker 2: worked in the city and like nobody cared. I worked
Speaker 2: for top surgeons, top doctors, and they came in and
Speaker 2: knew that I was good, and they just they didn't
Speaker 2: They like looked right past it, right. And then I
Speaker 2: went to work in the Burbs and this was about
Speaker 2: eleven years ago, and it was like a freak of
Speaker 2: nature walked into building. They they didn't know how to
Speaker 2: handle it, and they didn't handle it well at all.
Speaker 2: And despite all my history and them even knowing how
Speaker 2: good I work and everything, it just was completely ridiculous.
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by my book, Nicole
Speaker 2: and Jemmy's Anatomy. Do you have my book yet? If not,
Speaker 2: you better get it because it's really awesome. It is
Speaker 2: an A through Z journey of the human body and
Speaker 2: everything that could go wrong with it. Get it now
Speaker 2: at thedorramodern dot com slash book. So that's really cool.
Speaker 2: With your TV show and you you're still are you
Speaker 2: working on another season or are planning on another one
Speaker 2: coming out?
Speaker 3: So unfortunately Warner Brothers Discovery decided not to renew Crime
Speaker 3: Scene Confidential, so it is going to live with the
Speaker 3: two seasons. Uh, but you know, I'm gonna see where
Speaker 3: my journey takes me next and hopefully it takes me
Speaker 3: on to another television show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it will. It's it's like, now you
Speaker 2: have your foot kind of in the door, and you know,
Speaker 2: they people know who you are now, and I think
Speaker 2: you won't have a problem.
Speaker 3: With that at all. Yeah, And it was it was
Speaker 3: really you know, people ask, you know, I don't have children,
Speaker 3: but I have two seasons of television and they're kind
Speaker 3: of the same. To me. That was my you know, firstborn,
Speaker 3: and it was really important to me. Because that was
Speaker 3: my that's my heart and soul, it always will be.
Speaker 3: And it did something that I didn't anticipate. Right when
Speaker 3: I came out, I thought it's going to be a
Speaker 3: television show. But it's so much more than entertainment to me.
Speaker 3: I met so many victims' families that never got to
Speaker 3: tell their piece of the story. You know, I think
Speaker 3: a lot with true crime, it ends up being the
Speaker 3: focus on the murder or the aspects of somebody's death,
Speaker 3: and what never gets told are the, you know, the
Speaker 3: pieces of that person's life. We never get to meet
Speaker 3: that person through the details of them as a mother,
Speaker 3: a father, a sister, a brother, you know, the fun
Speaker 3: bits of their lives, the things that they loved to do,
Speaker 3: who they were as a person. You know, we tell
Speaker 3: the true crime story and it's horrible. It's the headlines,
Speaker 3: it's how many times they were stabbed, it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's these horrific details that live on in memory, and
Speaker 3: the family never gets to say, that was my dad
Speaker 3: who came and picked me up from softball. And every
Speaker 3: time I was up at that I looked over and
Speaker 3: they were in the stands and we barbecued on Sundays,
Speaker 3: and that was my sister, and she loved Doctor Pepper
Speaker 3: and we would get ready and she would steal my
Speaker 3: lip gloss. And these little moments that mean everything to
Speaker 3: the family members, those are the moments that don't get told.
Speaker 3: And that's what the show enabled the family to do.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that, and I'm actually mad that
Speaker 2: they're not continuing it because they really there's like this
Speaker 2: fine line of exploiting people and a crime and your
Speaker 2: kind of giving these people. I mean, think about how
Speaker 2: horrible it is for one of your especially immediate family members,
Speaker 2: for something terrible like that to happen, and how their
Speaker 2: entire life is is different. You would almost say it's
Speaker 2: over in a way, their life before this thing happens.
Speaker 2: And then how it's not just the person that lost
Speaker 2: their life, but it's everyone in the family and friends
Speaker 2: that lost a part of their life too. And to
Speaker 2: have their whole entire life be like around this particular
Speaker 2: crime instead, you have to make them be themselves again
Speaker 2: and have a purpose to want to live longer. Because
Speaker 2: if you think about especially like a child dying or something,
Speaker 2: or a parent dying, it almost it almost makes you think, like,
Speaker 2: how are these people even living on after this and
Speaker 2: when everything in their life is constantly about, Oh, your
Speaker 2: daughter was murdered, your daughter was murdered, then yeah, you
Speaker 2: it's cool that you're giving them a voice to let
Speaker 2: them talk about because they had a whole life with
Speaker 2: this person before this happened, and it's not cool that
Speaker 2: you're just talking about them getting stabbed to death and
Speaker 2: everything else without really getting like an educational lesson out
Speaker 2: of it somehow at least like that, and it's good
Speaker 2: for the families, and there's not enough of that, honestly, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 3: It was very important to me that this was not
Speaker 3: exploitative true crime that there was, that it was empathy
Speaker 3: was always at the core that we really never mentioned.
Speaker 3: You know. I think there were a lot of people
Speaker 3: that said, well, how come you didn't talk about the
Speaker 3: suspect or what happened to them because the suspect is
Speaker 3: not important in this this.
Speaker 2: Is It's true they and they do go heavy on
Speaker 2: on that, which is I mean, I do understand that
Speaker 2: there's a level of interest because I every person has
Speaker 2: a normal level of interest in it, because you almost
Speaker 2: want to think, do I have a person in my
Speaker 2: life that would do this to me, like, what are
Speaker 2: the warning signs? What happened? How can I prevent that
Speaker 2: from happening?
Speaker 1: To me?
Speaker 2: I think that's a huge thing. But you in order
Speaker 2: to learn those things, you have to also think about
Speaker 2: the other side of the coin. And we'll get into
Speaker 2: that a little bit later, because I do want to
Speaker 2: talk to you for a moment about the Idaho murders
Speaker 2: and everything like that, but let's talk about crime Con.
Speaker 2: What Like, what's what is crime Con? I know you've
Speaker 2: been there a couple of times and actually I'm going
Speaker 2: there this year too with my daughter Maria. Are you
Speaker 2: going to be there this year? I will not be
Speaker 2: there this year, Emmer. I was hoping I get to
Speaker 2: hang out with you for a little bit. I'm actually
Speaker 2: not going to have my kids for a day or two, so.
Speaker 3: Interact with people.
Speaker 2: But what so when you like, what is crime con? Exactly?
Speaker 3: So crime Con is like like any of the cons,
Speaker 3: it's a conference of all things true crime. So you'll
Speaker 3: get an opportunity to meet any of your favorite podcasters
Speaker 3: and then a lot of television folks and just anything
Speaker 3: true crime. Basically.
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. So did you get to meet some
Speaker 2: people that you wanted you were interested in meeting because
Speaker 2: I guess once you have a TV show and you're
Speaker 2: really in this field, you get to know who's who's
Speaker 2: on TV, who'se podcasting?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know there's Paul Holes is likely going
Speaker 3: to be there. He's always the fan favorite. The last
Speaker 3: crime Con event I did was the crime Cruise that
Speaker 3: went to the Bahamas.
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was super fun. Yeah, and what was that like?
Speaker 2: Was it the whole entire cruise was was the crime
Speaker 2: Con event?
Speaker 3: It wasn't the whole ship, but it was a good
Speaker 3: number of people, and so you know, there was a
Speaker 3: portion of the dining room was set off for all
Speaker 3: the crime cruise folks. And then we did different criming
Speaker 3: Cruise like events. So I did, uh. I think I
Speaker 3: did like three different speaking engagements. You know, it's you
Speaker 3: get your little brochure and it's like, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 3: to go to this event at this time, and then
Speaker 3: I'm going to go over to this event at this time,
Speaker 3: and you know, you still get your days to go
Speaker 3: off into the Bahamas and do you know Bahamas events
Speaker 3: as well, but then you get to go to all
Speaker 3: the different lectures from your favorite, you know, crime coned speakers,
Speaker 3: and then they do meet and greets for everybody so
Speaker 3: you can meet, get autographs and yeah, it's all it's
Speaker 3: good times. Oh.
Speaker 2: I love that. That sounds really fun. I've just I'd
Speaker 2: never been and I'm like, I mean it sounds good
Speaker 2: on paper, you know, but I just wanted to hear
Speaker 2: from someone that actually was there. So that's cool. All right.
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Idaho murders because I know
Speaker 2: that you've talked about that a little bit on your
Speaker 2: social media, right, yeah.
Speaker 3: I would did the Idaho college murder doc as well's oh.
Speaker 2: Yeah last year, right, that came out around March last year.
Speaker 2: That to me has been at least this year anyway,
Speaker 2: has been the most impactful case that's happened. I I
Speaker 2: was really upset when I heard about it, just because
Speaker 2: I have my older daughter is you know, she's already
Speaker 2: past college age, so I had a kid that was
Speaker 2: in college and I just felt so terrible for the
Speaker 2: parents and the whole entire situation of it. And then
Speaker 2: once the investigation started taking place and how that all
Speaker 2: went down, that it was just kind of like, oh,
Speaker 2: not really talking about it much on the news who
Speaker 2: it was, and then all of a sudden, it went
Speaker 2: down really fast in one day that they had arrested
Speaker 2: a guy. And then when I saw the guy they
Speaker 2: arrested that, he just scared the shit out of me.
Speaker 2: His eyes are just crazy, Like I just he was
Speaker 2: scary looking to me, and the whole thing bothered me.
Speaker 2: So I've been really kind of immersed in this case.
Speaker 2: Do you have any theories about do you think like
Speaker 2: all the evidence that was presented on Brian Koberg or
Speaker 2: do you think that it is at face value or
Speaker 2: do you think there's going to be other stuff that
Speaker 2: comes out? Well, I think certainly we don't know everything.
Speaker 2: We don't need to know everything.
Speaker 3: And that's how investigations work, that's how we ensure that
Speaker 3: we get fair trials. So you know, certainly early on,
Speaker 3: when I was, you know, on CNN and doing the
Speaker 3: news venues, I was making sure that the public understands, right,
Speaker 3: I think, you know, the public kind of has this
Speaker 3: immediate outcry to say, we want more information, we want
Speaker 3: to know what's going on, And I get that. I
Speaker 3: get that people want to know all of that information,
Speaker 3: and that's not in the best interest of the victims, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I have.
Speaker 2: A question about that actually, because there's a case this
Speaker 2: week that I'm going to talk about on a Mother
Speaker 2: Knows Death about this Georgia college another college student that
Speaker 2: just got got killed. And I noticed the same thing
Speaker 2: in the news story on both cases of that and
Speaker 2: the Idaho one, which was that they didn't think that
Speaker 2: there was a threat to the public before they caught
Speaker 2: the person. And as a parent that sends her child
Speaker 2: the way to college, I want to know that if
Speaker 2: this guy, I mean, that's the public interest from my perspective,
Speaker 2: this guy that killed four students, or this guy that
Speaker 2: killed the woman the other day at college, why is
Speaker 2: that not a public threat if that guy hasn't been
Speaker 2: found yet, Because if he's capable of doing that to
Speaker 2: one person, why wouldn't he be capable of doing that
Speaker 2: to other people?
Speaker 3: To me, that says the police think that they targeted
Speaker 3: a specific individual.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's right.
Speaker 3: You're stalking somebody and targeting them, So that means that
Speaker 3: the general public is not at risk. That he was
Speaker 3: specifically targeting somebody, Okay, And do you.
Speaker 2: Think that at that point they had those particular people
Speaker 2: on their radar? Because they were kind of like watching
Speaker 2: them a little bit, that they knew that if they
Speaker 2: really went out of their view that they were kind
Speaker 2: of in control of what those people were doing at
Speaker 2: that point in the coburger case, or yeah, just just
Speaker 2: in general, Well, I just feel like maybe if they
Speaker 2: said it's not it's not a public because there's other
Speaker 2: girls that go to college there and stuff, right, So
Speaker 2: there has to be a reason why they think that
Speaker 2: he wasn't capable of doing it to somebody else. And
Speaker 2: the only thing I could assume is that he was
Speaker 2: under surveillance and they were watching where he was going
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could mean that, or it could mean that
Speaker 3: they just had very specific information that this person was
Speaker 3: enthralled with and stalking one specific individual for them to say, look,
Speaker 3: we think this was a very focused, targeted event. This
Speaker 3: wasn't somebody that was just a random attack. Right. If
Speaker 3: it was a random attack, then that I think police
Speaker 3: would be like, hey, we could potentially have a problem.
Speaker 3: This is somebody randomly going around. Then they couldn't say, well,
Speaker 3: we don't know what the risk is to the general
Speaker 3: public because this is random. But if this person was
Speaker 3: you know, specifically targeting one person, and they carried out
Speaker 3: the attack on one person. You know, law enforcement would
Speaker 3: potentially be saying we don't think there's a risk for
Speaker 3: anybody else at this point, or like you say, they
Speaker 3: already have this guide under surveillance, they're watching their following,
Speaker 3: and they don't want to be like, it's okay, it's cool, everybody,
Speaker 3: we're watching him, because then they're telling that person that
Speaker 3: they're being washed.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, exactly, get that. I get that. He The
Speaker 2: interesting part of this is that he is a criminal
Speaker 2: justice major in a PhD program, so pretty high level
Speaker 2: criminal justice major. And I just wonder if he no,
Speaker 2: obviously he knows a little bit more about the procedure
Speaker 2: than the average person, like even someone like me knows
Speaker 2: about how something like that would go down. And I
Speaker 2: just I feel like, I don't know why. I just
Speaker 2: feel like like some bombshells speaking like Nancy Grace or something,
Speaker 2: some bombshell is going to come out that that is
Speaker 2: that we're not expecting. I just feel like it's just
Speaker 2: a little too sloppy for a person that knows how
Speaker 2: things go kind of.
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just well, you know, certainly we
Speaker 3: don't know all the evidence that's been collected. So we're
Speaker 3: gonna have to wait and see what electronic evidence that
Speaker 3: they have off of any computers and cell phones. You know,
Speaker 3: I'm waiting to see there was a dog in the house,
Speaker 3: so my you know, big thing was I was waiting
Speaker 3: to see if they've collected any dog fur that matches
Speaker 3: back to that dog off of his clothing or in
Speaker 3: his car. You know, that trace evidence transfer is that's
Speaker 3: always going to get you, you know, because you can't
Speaker 3: say you weren't in that home. If you've got evidence
Speaker 3: like that. You know, certainly any hair off of any
Speaker 3: of these girls is transferred back. You know, I know
Speaker 3: that there are those crime scene investigators are collecting his
Speaker 3: vacuum cleaners, you know, his bed sheets, his clothing, right
Speaker 3: if you know, if he's smart, we know he's trying
Speaker 3: to get rid of his clothing and whatnot. But there
Speaker 3: are other things that you can't you know. I'm sure
Speaker 3: you're like me. I've got pink hair all over my house.
Speaker 3: Every time I sweep, it's just like plethora of pink hair.
Speaker 3: So think about the amount of hair that he could
Speaker 3: have in his clothing or his you know, just anywhere
Speaker 3: that's transferred back. Even if he got rid of the clothing,
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that hairs aren't shedding off of those
Speaker 3: you know, the gear shift, you know, the pedals of
Speaker 3: his car, his floor mats, you know, just the transportation
Speaker 3: to and from. And that's physical evidence, not even electronic evidence. Now,
Speaker 3: the thing that we that I'm really keeping up with
Speaker 3: here is that this is going to become a it's
Speaker 3: going to become a constitutional rights challenge. They know that
Speaker 3: the DNA on the snap of that knife sheath is
Speaker 3: really really critical in this case. We're going to be
Speaker 3: looking at I think the defense team attacking that forensic
Speaker 3: genetic genealogy because they're going to say, certainly, he doesn't
Speaker 3: have a right to if his DNA is abandoned on
Speaker 3: a crime scene, on that knife sheath, doesn't have a
Speaker 3: constitutional right to his DNA. If his DNA was a
Speaker 3: in our familial DNA was abandoned on the trash on
Speaker 3: the street, there's no right to that. But I think
Speaker 3: what they're looking at now is if the FBI or
Speaker 3: if law enforcement used any types of databases, what right
Speaker 3: do you have as a citizen to your DNA once
Speaker 3: you have volunteered it into one of those databases. So
Speaker 3: is this going to become some Fourth Amendment right, constitutional
Speaker 3: right if law enforcement utilized databases like that. We know
Speaker 3: they searched codis and they didn't get a hit. So
Speaker 3: did they utilize any other databases? You know, my heritage
Speaker 3: or twenty three in me, ancestry dot com. Do not
Speaker 3: all of use the word cooperate in ear quotes because
Speaker 3: they don't just freely share DNA information with law enforcement.
Speaker 3: But there are some others. You can download your raw
Speaker 3: genome from a twenty three and me site. Anybody can
Speaker 3: do that, and then they can personally take that information
Speaker 3: and then upload it into another site for other information.
Speaker 3: And he could have done that into a different site
Speaker 3: that law enforcement could access that is more cooperative. So
Speaker 3: at what point now do you own the rights to
Speaker 3: your DNA that you have voluntarily provided one of those
Speaker 3: sources or sites. And I think we're going to see
Speaker 3: the defense challenging that because we know that that DNA
Speaker 3: information is going to be very critical here. And last
Speaker 3: I heard they're looking at trying to defense is trying
Speaker 3: to push this case back to summer of twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And this is what sucks for the
Speaker 2: families because they they just have to sit here on edge.
Speaker 2: And I guess there's always I mean, even though it's
Speaker 2: all signs are pointing to it with this guy and everything,
Speaker 2: there's always that possibility that he either didn't do it
Speaker 2: or he's not going to get in trouble for it.
Speaker 2: I mean, like look at OJ right, Yeah, it's it's possible.
Speaker 2: And think about like living through that trauma of your
Speaker 2: child being murdered in such a in that way and
Speaker 2: then so public and then having to live for years
Speaker 2: after that on edge kind of and not having any
Speaker 2: kind of closure. It's just terrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And mark my words, I think right now, if
Speaker 3: if they get all of those constitutional rights challenges through
Speaker 3: and the DNA on the knife on the snap of
Speaker 3: that knife sheath does make it into trial, I think
Speaker 3: what will what we'll hear from the defense is just
Speaker 3: because his DNA is on the night, on that snap
Speaker 3: of that knife sheath, doesn't mean that he was physically
Speaker 3: at the crime scene. Right He kept his office you
Speaker 3: know at the college unlocked. Somebody could have taken it,
Speaker 3: you know, taken that knife sheath from his office. They
Speaker 3: could have planted it at the crime scene. We're going
Speaker 3: to see all kinds of stories from the defense side saying, yes,
Speaker 3: his DNA is on the knife. She However, it doesn't
Speaker 3: mean that he stabbed these people. Just means that that
Speaker 3: was taken from somewhere, you know, maybe that's his night sheaf.
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean he stabbed him. It could have been placed
Speaker 3: there by anybody. You know, we're going to start to
Speaker 3: seek theories like this that come about from the defense
Speaker 3: team once it does come to trial. And this is
Speaker 3: why when I talk to family members who are grieving,
Speaker 3: I have said in the past that it's dangerous to
Speaker 3: wait to grieve on a specific thing because I see
Speaker 3: a lot of times family members say, well, I'll be okay,
Speaker 3: I'll get peace when this thing happens, right when it
Speaker 3: goes to trial, when somebody is found guilty, when there's accountability,
Speaker 3: because sometimes that doesn't come. You know what happens when
Speaker 3: it comes to trial, you know, and you've pinned your
Speaker 3: waiting to grieve on his being found guilty. What if
Speaker 3: he doesn't get found guilty.
Speaker 2: And it's a possibility. It happens people all the time.
Speaker 2: It's which is terrible, but right, yeah, what are you
Speaker 2: doing your piece somewhere. So I guess they only had
Speaker 2: to tell us about the DNA that they found because
Speaker 2: that was enough, along with the other stuff with the
Speaker 2: phone records and everything to just get him in jail
Speaker 2: and then they'll present the rest of this stuff at
Speaker 2: court when the child happens. Yeah, so you're saying that
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that there's a ton more things that
Speaker 2: they found, like you said, dogcrees or whatever, and that's
Speaker 2: just not released because we don't need to know that yet.
Speaker 3: Well, I think so, And I think certainly they have
Speaker 3: to release all that information. The prosecution and the defense
Speaker 3: both have to share that information with each other, but
Speaker 3: they don't have to share that information with the general public.
Speaker 2: And how do you feel about the house being destroyed?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would always rather have it there
Speaker 3: because of that. What if now, I think it's fairly
Speaker 3: rare that a jury would take a trip to the house.
Speaker 3: You know, I know that they've they've scanned the house
Speaker 3: or they use the laser scanner to scan and recreate
Speaker 3: that house, so with mot you know, they can model it,
Speaker 3: so measurement capability is no issue. And I'd rather have
Speaker 3: it than not need it. And while I understand the
Speaker 3: argument that you know, people have to still look at
Speaker 3: it and that it's causing you know, emotional harm, just
Speaker 3: because you take the house down doesn't mean that space
Speaker 3: isn't still there. People still have to look at that
Speaker 3: space and know what's occurred. So, you know, I don't
Speaker 3: know I would have Perford.
Speaker 2: I just went to New York the other day, and
Speaker 2: I don't go there that often, and it's like every
Speaker 2: single time I I look at the skyline, I think
Speaker 2: about nine to eleven. Like, it don't matter that you know,
Speaker 2: the space is still there.
Speaker 3: You can't erasee what's occurred in that space by taking
Speaker 3: the house down. So I would rather as an investigator
Speaker 3: have that and not need it.
Speaker 2: I mean, is it cause you do this for a living?
Speaker 2: Like there, they got all the evidence they possibly can.
Speaker 2: There's like no way that they would ever have to
Speaker 2: go back and get something else.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing, even if they really you know,
Speaker 3: if they release the house and then you know, trial
Speaker 3: happens in twenty twenty five, they've lost chain of custody
Speaker 3: on that house, So they would not really be able
Speaker 3: to go back in the house and collect more evidence
Speaker 3: because the house isn't secured. So as far as the
Speaker 3: evidence collection perspective, you couldn't go back in and collect
Speaker 3: more evidence down the road because unless it's you know,
Speaker 3: been sat on with lock and key, if you know
Speaker 3: it's been secured with evidence tape, somebody's been you know,
Speaker 3: sitting on and watching it, because they would throw that
Speaker 3: out in a heartbeat. They'd say, how do you know
Speaker 3: somebody didn't plant this, you know, tamper with it, et cetera.
Speaker 3: So from that chain of custody perspective, you couldn't go
Speaker 3: back in. This would really strictly be for the viewpoint
Speaker 3: of the jurors to have them be able to go
Speaker 3: in and look and get perspectives and say, well, we
Speaker 3: think so and so drove by and they could see
Speaker 3: and through a window, okay, great, have them sit in
Speaker 3: a car and look and see could you peasially see
Speaker 3: from that point of view or from that perspective that
Speaker 3: type of thing.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's interesting.
Speaker 3: So now, and that should be capable of being done
Speaker 3: with the modeling that they've done through three D scanning, and.
Speaker 2: So that's that's like, that's something that I just have
Speaker 2: questions about too, Like, is that is that a powerful
Speaker 2: thing for the jury to see, or could they they could?
Speaker 2: Do you think that they took pictures ahead of time
Speaker 2: to say like, here's from this road what you could
Speaker 2: see in the window, here's you.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I'm sure they took pictures, and but
Speaker 3: you can't take all the pictures. That's why, you know,
Speaker 3: three D laser scanning is so important. If you're familiar,
Speaker 3: They use the three D scanner so that you can
Speaker 3: literally put yourself in any viewpoint whatsoever, so that when
Speaker 3: it comes down to trial, you can pop yourself wherever.
Speaker 3: So pictures are two dimensional, you can't really put yourself
Speaker 3: in that viewpoint when it comes down the road. But
Speaker 3: now that they have that model, you could put yourself
Speaker 3: anywhere so that it's the defence says, okay, but what
Speaker 3: if somebody was lying in the driveway right? Nobody's going
Speaker 3: to take that photograph, no matter how good of a
Speaker 3: CSI you are. But they could physically put themselves in
Speaker 3: that three dimensional model and then show that viewpoint.
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. That what and what do you This
Speaker 2: is kind of a side note, but do you do
Speaker 2: you know what field of forensics that is?
Speaker 3: Uh, the laser scanning Yeah, so that was actually the
Speaker 3: job I had when I left crime scene as. I
Speaker 3: went to work for a company that does laser scanning,
Speaker 3: and I taught crime scene investigators how to do the
Speaker 3: laser scanning, which is why I know about that.
Speaker 2: Oh that's really interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's another method of documentation that crime scene
Speaker 3: investigators do these days, and that's to use laser scanners. Uh,
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of replacing two D documentation now because
Speaker 3: two D isn't enough. We need three D documentation. So
Speaker 3: it's it's typical now on large scale you know, high
Speaker 3: profile scenes or comicides or officer and all shootings, that
Speaker 3: crime scene investigators will three D laser scan a crime
Speaker 3: scene so they have all perspectives and they can actually
Speaker 3: do three D fly throughs, recreate models, and then put
Speaker 3: themselves into any perspective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. It's almost like a video game like
Speaker 2: it really airs. But that's good for the jors that
Speaker 2: they can really because they I mean go into the
Speaker 2: house and stuff would be traumatizing for them too. I
Speaker 2: can't even imagine having to see the crime scene photos
Speaker 2: from that. So is that typical if there's like let's
Speaker 2: just use the Idaho House, for example, there's a building
Speaker 2: where something like that happens, that the police have custody
Speaker 2: over that building for x amount of time until they
Speaker 2: get everything they need out of it, and then they
Speaker 2: just give and then it just goes back to the
Speaker 2: owner and they're like, here you go, you could have
Speaker 2: this back.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's up to law enforcement how long they want
Speaker 3: to retain control over that house, and then they would
Speaker 3: turn it over to the owners of the building and
Speaker 3: then you know, like you say, it's up to them
Speaker 3: usually you know, homeowner's insurance or whatever to clean up
Speaker 3: whatever has occurred inside. Really yeah, yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I've seen some of the things that
Speaker 2: I've seen. I just can't I do. I have actually
Speaker 2: have interviewed a crime scene cleaner before, and I've seen
Speaker 2: photographs of some of the stuff that they clean up,
Speaker 2: and I can't imagine. I mean, I see why the
Speaker 2: guy that owns the Idaho House said that he was
Speaker 2: going to donate it to the school and let them
Speaker 2: demo it, because why would you want to keep the
Speaker 2: house at that point. So that's really interesting to me
Speaker 2: because I didn't really realize that that's that that's how
Speaker 2: things went. I so while the police are there collecting
Speaker 2: the evidence, it's it's secured by police twenty four to seven,
Speaker 2: so nobody can Oh that's good. Its like, how do
Speaker 2: they do that? They put up a fence or something
Speaker 2: or no.
Speaker 3: Well, so usually what they do is they can physically
Speaker 3: secure doors with evidence tape and then usually they'll put
Speaker 3: an officer to sit and physically guard the property.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really interesting. Okay, so you're doing You're retired
Speaker 2: from CSI now, correct?
Speaker 3: Yep. I have a forensic consulting business, so I can
Speaker 3: consult with attorneys or you know, businesses that need somebody
Speaker 3: to review cold cases or or any crime scenes.
Speaker 2: That's kind of cool. Actually, I feel like I like
Speaker 2: on my website, I look at like I love looking
Speaker 2: at autopsy reports and just trying to reconstruct what I
Speaker 2: think happens. So you're kind of doing the same thing.
Speaker 2: It's really cool. All right, Well, thanks so much for
Speaker 2: being here today. It was really great chatting with you.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to mother nos death. As a reminder,
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks the technical have the Jabla