WEBVTT - External Exam - CSI Before It Was Cool, Bryan Kohberger, The Idaho Murders and More, with Forensic Consultant, Alina Burroughs 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:16.119 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.919 Hi everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.760 External Exam, we are going to talk to a real 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:28.880 CSI who was a CSI before CSI was cool, and 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.040 her name is Alena Burrows. Welcome to the show. 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:33.479 Thanks for having me. 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:37.120 Alena is a former CSI as well as a forensic 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:41.680 consultant and host of Crime Scene Confidential on the ID Channel, 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:43.840 which is super cool and we'll talk about a little 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.120 bit later, but before we get into that, can you 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.320 please tell us how you got into this field. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.320 Yeah, So I didn't really even know that crime sated 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.960 investigation was a thing because I started crime Scene a 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:02.240 little bit previous to all of the shows, which is 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.000 I think how the world was really introduced to crime 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.320 scene being an actual job. You know, before that, everybody 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:11.240 thought it was just part of what detectives did or 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.760 what police did. Nobody really knew crime scene investigation was 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.280 a field in its own right. Sorry, if you can 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:25.319 hear sirens, like right on queue. So I was actually 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.759 in college working on my undergrad degree and my family business. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.800 My father is an industrial organizational psychologist and that's kind 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:38.840 of a fancy term for the psychology of how big 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:43.640 business operates, how they select the right people for the job, 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:46.399 how they hire people, how they fire people, and how 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:51.480 business operates in general. And he was doing basically looking 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:56.320 at how police agencies selected the appropriate people for the job. 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.720 And I went to work for him, and I started 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.840 reading all the general operating procedures and standard operating procedures 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:08.160 for law enforcement, and I kind of always gravitated to 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:11.120 the crime scene procedures and I just thought, you know, 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.160 I think this is this is what I want to do. 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:18.160 And I called the local sheriff's office for you know, 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.000 the town kind of where I lived, and I said, well, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:22.320 what do you need to do? What do you need 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.639 to have? Education background, you know, what do you need 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.120 to have to basically be able to work there? And 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:31.480 they said, you need four years basically of either crime 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:35.440 scene experience or a four year degree in a hard science. Well, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:37.280 I already had a four year degree, but it was 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.919 in communication, which is not a hard science. So I said, okay, 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.280 but looking at like all my background in the science 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.160 classes I had in the four year degree, what if 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.320 I got a master's degree in a science. So with 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.760 that two years of you know, the master's degree plus 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:55.680 what I already had, you know, would that be enough? 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.160 And they said, yeah, as long as you've got four 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.160 year combination. So lacking any experience in crime scene, it's 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:03.800 kind of like the old catch twenty two. How do 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:05.359 you get a job without experience? How do you get 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.679 experience without a job. A master's degree was really going 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:10.280 to be my only way to get my foot in 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.240 the door. So I went and I got my master's 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.720 degree in nine months. I did it in three semesters, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:18.880 which was, you know, kind of how I do everything, 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.320 which is just throw myself all in. And I came 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:22.840 back and I said, all right, I got my master's 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:24.720 Can I can I apply for the job? 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.600 Now? That's so cool. I love that. I love these 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:29.680 stories of like back in the day when there was 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.200 no Internet and we actually had to make phone calls 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.200 and talk to real people to get answers. There wasn't 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.160 just Google. So I love that because I feel like 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.600 when you work really hard to get where you're at, 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.560 it's it just it just says something. So that's pretty cool. 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:47.200 So did you have to do? You have to so 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:50.120 for my job, for instance, you have to go to college, 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:52.600 but then after you graduate, you also have to get 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:55.200 a certification to do the job. Is there any kind 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.520 of certification to be a crime scene investigator? 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.200 Yeah, So you can't learn what you need to know 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.320 about being a crime scene investigator from a book. Right, 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.480 there are some traits I think that will assist you 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.040 in the job, right, being detail oriented. You know, we 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.600 write a lot of reports, so you know, written communication 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:18.160 skills are great to have. We testify court, Oral communication 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.839 skills are great to have, presentation skills, but a lot 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.599 of what we do you have to learn. You know, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:26.400 you have to learn on the job. So there's a 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.440 field training program when you get into it. But there 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:33.040 are an incredible amount of schools that crime scene investigators 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.080 go to because so much of the learning is very 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:39.240 niche to the job. You know, we have to understand 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:44.640 bullet trajectory, blood stained pattern analysis. There are schools for 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:48.359 how to recover buried bodies. There's schools for how to 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.680 deal with surface skeletons, you know, skeletal remains that are 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.760 on the surface that may be spread out, Forensic anthropology schools. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.720 There's schools for botany, there are schools for insets. There 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:06.440 are so many different little kind of intricate areas of 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:10.160 forensics for forensic specialties that when you are a CSI, 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:12.560 you very much need to be a jack of all trades. 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.719 It's interesting because when I first I didn't really know 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.720 anything about the field either. Obviously when I started and 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.120 when I interned at the Medical Examiner, they have actual 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:27.200 investigators that work at the Medical Examiner's office that I 0:05:27.400 --> 0:05:29.559 just thought there was one such thing as a crime 0:05:29.600 --> 0:05:32.839 scene person and I thought they did it, and no, 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.560 they just do it relating to the body itself. So 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.680 they go and take pictures and then they try to 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.919 interview the family to see like if the person was 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:44.320 on any medications or if they left a suicide note 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:47.239 or something like that. And then there's like this whole 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.599 other department which is what you do, which is doing 0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:54.800 ballistics and blood spatter and all that to actually work 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.719 on the investigation of the crime itself. So I know 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.440 that you've definitely have had your hands in all this 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:04.640 just doing this for so many years, But do you 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.359 have a specific thing that you're like, that's my favorite 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:08.240 part of all of this. 0:06:09.200 --> 0:06:12.440 Yeah, I think every crime scene investigator kind of gravitates 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:15.600 towards one particular arena and they find something that they 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.920 really love and then they find something that they find, 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:26.560 you know, more tedious. And the IAI, which to answer 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:30.359 your previous question, certifies crime scene investigators. So there is 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:32.920 kind of like a governing body and that's the International 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:36.600 Association for Identification. So it's kind of like how attorneys 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:40.039 have the bar exam. Crime scene investigators have the IAI, 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.360 So there is an overall and then each state has 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.680 their state kind of IAI, and they provide training to 0:06:47.760 --> 0:06:51.880 crime scene investigators. They also provide certifications, so even a 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:56.160 crime scene investigator that gets training through their agency can 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.920 also get certifications through the IAI, so you can kind 0:06:59.920 --> 0:07:02.760 of come in green and then you can become a 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:06.240 certified crime scene investigator. You can become a certified crime 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:10.000 scene analyst, you can become a certified Senior crime Scene Analyst, 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:13.720 and those are the kind of certifications that a crime 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:18.119 scene investigator can obtain. And you know that that works 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:19.760 really well when you go to court and you can 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:24.520 testify and say that you hold those certifications and those 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.520 you can also get specialty certifications through the IAI. So 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.840 if there's something that you really find interesting, you can 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:36.280 seek certification. But you know, I think I always gravitated 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:41.120 towards forensic anthropology, Like I loved that aspect of it, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.320 and I love the aspect of blood stained pattern analysis 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:49.600 because to me, it reads like a book. If you 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.600 know what you're looking for, if you know what you're 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.040 looking at, you can you can look at the blood 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:58.200 and it tells you somebody has been traveling through here, 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.000 or what direction somebody is going, And I just I 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.560 find that so incredibly interesting. 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:07.400 It is really cool when you when you say it 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.480 like that, it is. It's really interesting, and it's cool 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:12.800 when you can look at something and tell something and 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:14.760 when everybody else looks at it, they're just like, well, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.720 it's just a bunch of blood on the ground, exactly like. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:20.200 And you can you can tell to a degree how 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:24.120 many blows or what type of instrument in there's patterns, right, 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.400 shoe tracks certainly in blood. But if somebody you know, 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.960 used say a hammer, and then they laid that down 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:33.439 and they took it with them, you could see potentially 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:36.560 the imprint of that weapon that was left behind in blood. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.040 So even if they took the weapon with them, you 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.839 might see what that weapon was, even if it weren't 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:44.360 at the scene, you could see it. If it was 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.240 a screwdriver, if it was a hammer. There are all 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.840 kinds of clues that can be left behind about the weapon, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.280 the victim, and the suspect through blood. So I always 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.880 liked bloodstained pattern analysis. 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.040 That's that's so cool. It's really really cool. So you 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:02.640 did say that you have testified it. You guys have 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.920 to testify at court. That's that's normal part of your job. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:11.400 Have you ever been involved in any high profile cases 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:13.959 that you're allowed to talk about or can maybe give 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.800 us kind of some of an example of something that 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.800 you did at the job and then you later went 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:19.920 to court to testify on. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:23.800 Yeah, you know, certainly a court testimony is a huge 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.800 part of what the crime scene investigator does because that is, 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.280 you know, the ultimate reason that we do what we do. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.480 You know, the crimescene investigator documents the scene through notes, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.960 through photographs, through observations. If it doesn't get translated to 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:45.360 a report, it in a way it didn't happen. Because 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.439 if you get there on the stand and they can 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.080 only question you through the photographs that you took, the 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:54.040 notes that you took, that become ultimately your report. You 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:56.079 know if they ask you, oh, well, you know, did 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.560 such and such happen and you go, yeah, actually it did, 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:00.160 and they say, well, I don't see it in your 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.200 report where you documented that. Oh well I didn't document, 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:08.560 but I remember it. Well, if you haven't notated that, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:12.920 it didn't happen. So your job is to create that report. 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:16.839 You are testifying to a report. So courtroom testimony, in 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.840 the end, is everything. That is your ultimate job is 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.560 that you are a witness to a crime for the state. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.680 That is your job as an investigator. So in the end, 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.520 your courtroom testimony is actually everything. So testimony is a 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.160 huge part of what an investigator does. It is our 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:41.760 job to become a voice for the victim as a 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.880 witness for them on their behalf, and to speak and 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.960 translate what we saw and to translate the evidence in 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.080 a way that the jury will understand it. Right. So 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:52.880 I can't just get up on the stand and say 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:55.800 well I saw this, and you know I took DNA 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:58.680 swabs or I did this or that. That's not my job. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.520 My job is to translate physically what I did in 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.440 a way that the jury understands it. That's their job. 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:07.920 Their job is to make a decision about somebody's guilt 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.160 or innocence potentially. So my job is, yes to say 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.800 what I did in an impartial method or in a 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:20.960 partial manner, but they have to understand what I did. 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.200 I went to court a couple times with the medical 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:27.000 Examiner when I was in school, and I don't like, 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:30.160 do they do they train you and how to be 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:31.920 on the stand and what it's like to have a 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.080 really aggressive lawyer in your face because one of the 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.400 cases I went on, it was clear that this guy 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.000 strangled this woman to death with his hands, and I 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.199 couldn't believe the lawyer on his side how they were 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.480 grilling the medical Examiner's office as if they did something wrong. 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.040 And I was like, oh my god. If I was 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.640 up there, I think I would be really intimidated. Do 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.080 they do they kind of grill you before you do 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:57.880 stuff like that? 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.840 I think it probably depends on the agency, you know. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.480 You know, I think part of my field training program 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.520 was that you did go to court and watch another 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:09.600 crime scene investigator testify. But it largely depends on what 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.680 you observe. You know, were they grilled, you know, was 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.839 it an easy case or a difficult case, Was it 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:16.960 a burglary or a homicide? You know, kind of is 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.600 luck of the draw. It also depends on your own 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:25.280 personality type. You have to understand in court that that 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.760 is the job of you know, defense attorneys or cross 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.320 examination is their job ultimate job is to make you 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:37.560 look like you did not do your job right. I've 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.400 been asked ridiculous questions on this stand right if I 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.640 you know, I took aerial photographs and a helicopter and 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.040 I was asked if I was flying the helicopter while 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.920 I was taking the photographs. And you know what kind 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.920 of training in I'm a very sarcastic person, and you know, 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:55.600 in my head, my first instinct is to be funnier, 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.400 to say, yeah, you know, I was flying the helicopter 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.840 with my knees while I leaned out into So, you know, 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.880 they ask questions like did you take an air sample 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:09.400 to prove that a battery had occurred? And the thing 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.360 that I know is that that doesn't occur. That's not 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.720 valid forensic science. The thing that the jury doesn't know 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:21.079 is that that's not valid forensic science. The defense attorney's 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.360 job is to make me look bad and to ask 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:26.680 me as many questions in a row as possible that 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:29.000 I have to say no to so that in the 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.640 end the jury goes, gosh, is she very good at 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:33.920 her job? Like did she she didn't even take an 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.000 air sample? The jury doesn't know that that's not valid 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.640 forensic science. We don't do that. Like would I be 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:42.120 running through the scene with a ziploc bag trying to 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:47.040 collect how does that even occur? So it's it's a challenge. 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:49.200 You just have to stay calm and answer the questions 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:53.720 as calmly as possible and not make yourself look worse 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.840 by being combative or sarcastic on the stand, even though 0:13:56.880 --> 0:13:59.360 in the head you're going, what the actual. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:02.600 So you're like, I dated a dude like this before. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.679 This guy's a tool. I want to just like that's yeah. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.240 Actually, And I mean I have you know before just 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.680 said uh, I've turned to the jury and just said 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:11.720 that's not a thing. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.960 I love that. That's so great. So I guess a 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:20.000 lot of this. You started working as a CSI before 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:22.240 we said like before it was cool. You have a 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.120 T shirt that says that, which I love that. But 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:30.000 so CSI show comes out, and so I guess I 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:33.360 was in my twenties when it came out. I remember 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.000 I was still living at my mom's house and I 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.960 would come home from school and my parents would be 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.040 sitting on the couch watching this stupid show, and I 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.840 would just get so annoyed of how it makes it 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.040 look so glamorous. Their lab is beautiful, They're all beautiful. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.920 They solve a crime in an hour. They have unlimited resources, 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.720 and as you and I know, like when a person dies, 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.560 there's no money. They don't care to spend money to 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.240 help you out investigating this kind of stuff. So what 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.920 kind of an impact have you seen over the course 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.960 of your career? And also, just like teaching forensic students, 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.080 do they come in thinking that that's legit, what it's 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:11.560 going to be. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.440 Like, Yeah, there's been both good and bad. I think impacts. 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.440 I think, you know, to start off with the good, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.360 I will say that it got an entire generation of 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.560 people interested in forensic science. And if it gets people 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:30.640 invigorated and interested in the real science behind it, that's fantastic. Right. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.880 If it gets people interested in stems then you know, 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.720 and gets them interested in pursuing a career in the 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:42.880 real forensic science, then that's fantastic. You know, maybe there 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.120 were a lot of people that ordinarily would not have 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:49.080 pursued a science career but thought, hey, maybe this might 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.240 be for me. Then I think that's fantastic. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.080 And do these people though, then some because I've had 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:58.560 this happen to like the students will start and then 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.000 they're like, oh my god, I can't really handle the 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.120 reality of what this is. This is really a hard 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:04.880 job to do. 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.400 Some Yeah, I think there's a natural weeding out process though, 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.960 of anybody that goes into a career, you know, like 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.600 that some are going to continue on, they'll push themselves, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.760 and then some will say I don't think I can 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:20.040 do this. I've seen that in the career in general. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.800 When it comes to dealing with deceased individuals. There are 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.600 a lot of people that go and they think crime 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.880 scene is cool, they go into it, and then they say, 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.360 I don't think I can do this. I have nightmares, 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:34.240 I'm afraid to be alone in my home or whatever. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:36.040 You know, crime scene is not for everybody. 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:40.480 So speaking of that, have you ever had any I mean, 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.800 I know the answer to this, I'm sure, but do 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:47.040 you ever have any emotions attached to the case or 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.160 like I know, for example, people ask me, when you 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:52.160 would do an autopsy on a baby, do you cry? 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.040 And I'm like, no, why would I cry? That's ridiculous, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.000 Like I'm doing my job. Yeah, if I cried, that 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.600 wouldn't be effective. So I'm sure you're the same way. 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.320 But do you ever go home and get bothered by shit? 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.360 Sure? Yeah, I learned very early on. I'm an mpath 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.600 and I learned very early on that I had to 0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:16.240 shut it off. And it was a very beneficial skill 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.360 for me just in life in general. I think learning 0:17:19.400 --> 0:17:22.320 how it was hard for me, I think to learn 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:25.040 how to turn things on and off, and crime scene 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.200 actually taught me that skill of learning how to shut 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.720 it off. And because I think I remember in the 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.840 very beginning, I had the emotions right, you'd feel it, 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.200 and then you'd be like, oh, not the place right, 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.119 not the place, not the time, you know, just being 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:45.159 at a crime you know, I think in your field, 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:49.920 you're you're removed. It's very clinical, they're gone, right, and 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.439 that helps a bit. And I would be standing in 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.240 the living room of a house where the family is 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.280 saying goodbye, right, and you know, brothers and mothers are 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.320 saying goodbye to their loved ones. They're crying, and I 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.840 felt very out of place, like this is intrusive. I 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.400 shouldn't be here, and I have to be right, it's 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.480 my job. But now I'm standing in somebody's living room 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:19.679 and somebody has, you know, maybe committed suicide. And I 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:23.040 see all the signs of struggle that they were really 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:25.680 trying to not get to that point. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:26.000 You know. 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.280 You see the self help books, you see prescription meds, 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.840 you see maybe notes that they had written to themselves. 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.160 You see the struggle that they had gone through for 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.000 so long that they didn't want this and to just 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.520 kind of get to that. And then having like a 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:49.280 wife laying over her husband pray, crying and reading a 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.600 suicide note out loud, and I'm just standing there like. 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:57.040 Eh no, And You're like, what am I supposed to 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.600 do right now? Like should I hold their hands? Should 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.439 I just it here? And like act like and I 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:03.280 try to figure. 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.320 I try to be invisible, you know, because, as you know, 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:08.639 a law enforcement I have to be there to ensure, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.320 you know, that the body is not hampered with in 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.120 any way, but also as a human, I'm trying to 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.119 allow her that time to grieve and say goodbye, and 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.479 so it's just you have to figure out how to 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.399 be both human and an investigator. And I think a 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.600 lot of my journey just in life and the TV 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.720 show and everything, is understanding that you can be both, 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:34.240 because I think a lot of investigators end up deciding 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:37.720 you can't be both. And I think that's how we 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.880 have some problematic investigations, is people just go, no, can't 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:42.920 be human anymore, shut it off. 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.720 Yeah, exactly, when there's always so much more to the story. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.480 It's you see that all the time, both in medicine 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.879 and forensics. I remember when I was a student, I 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:58.040 went on a suicide scene and it was crazy that 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.679 the guy was the husband, had shot himself upstairs in 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.800 the bedroom and the wife was downstairs and met us 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.280 at the door crying. It just was so awkward, and 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.919 that what the investigator that I was with went upstairs 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:15.159 and kind of left me downstairs with the wife, and 0:20:15.400 --> 0:20:17.560 it was the same thing. I was just like sitting there, like, 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:19.879 what do I say, Am I supposed to talk to 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:20.480 this lady? 0:20:20.520 --> 0:20:20.639 Like? 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.200 It just was so awkward. And when we went upstairs 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.680 and took all the pictures and everything, then we said Okay, 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.920 we're going to take the body to the medical examiners. Now, 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.160 his brains and pieces of his skull were all over 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.920 the pillow in the wall, and I was like, well, 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.720 are we gonna clean this up? And they're like, no, 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.719 she's got to call somebody that And I thought how 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.879 upsetting that was for her, that she had to go 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.200 up there and see her husband's brain on her linens. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.399 You know, yeah, it is hard to disassociate from that 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.480 because you're a real person that has family and friends 0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.760 and everything, and it's just it's really cool. But it's 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.040 cool that there's people like you that can turn it 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:05.359 off but also keep it on a little bit to 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.600 help investigate things. So let's talk about your your TV show. 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.159 How how'd you get that gig? Because it sounds it 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.840 sounds so cool you get to host your own TV show. 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.320 Yeah, So you know my background obviously with crime scene. 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:21.320 I taught forensic science, so I did a lot of 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:24.240 public speaking where I would teach and I was at 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.960 a you know, a public speaking event and I did 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.560 not know, but I guess there was a there was 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:35.359 a scout in the audience. And I came back from 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:39.399 that event and got a message and said, you know, 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.679 would you be interested in, uh, you know, in putting 0:21:42.680 --> 0:21:45.560 together something a pitch for a television show, you know, 0:21:45.600 --> 0:21:47.680 And I thought about it. You know, this wasn't anything 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.200 that I had ever, This wasn't the goal. I wasn't 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.720