1
00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:16,119
Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

2
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. On this week's

3
00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,760
Speaker 2: External Exam, we are going to talk to a real

4
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 2: CSI who was a CSI before CSI was cool, and

5
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 2: her name is Alena Burrows. Welcome to the show.

6
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,479
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

7
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,120
Speaker 2: Alena is a former CSI as well as a forensic

8
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,680
Speaker 2: consultant and host of Crime Scene Confidential on the ID Channel,

9
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:43,840
Speaker 2: which is super cool and we'll talk about a little

10
00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 2: bit later, but before we get into that, can you

11
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 2: please tell us how you got into this field.

12
00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I didn't really even know that crime sated

13
00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 3: investigation was a thing because I started crime Scene a

14
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,240
Speaker 3: little bit previous to all of the shows, which is

15
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 3: I think how the world was really introduced to crime

16
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 3: scene being an actual job. You know, before that, everybody

17
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 3: thought it was just part of what detectives did or

18
00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,760
Speaker 3: what police did. Nobody really knew crime scene investigation was

19
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,280
Speaker 3: a field in its own right. Sorry, if you can

20
00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,319
Speaker 3: hear sirens, like right on queue. So I was actually

21
00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,759
Speaker 3: in college working on my undergrad degree and my family business.

22
00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,800
Speaker 3: My father is an industrial organizational psychologist and that's kind

23
00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,840
Speaker 3: of a fancy term for the psychology of how big

24
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,640
Speaker 3: business operates, how they select the right people for the job,

25
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,399
Speaker 3: how they hire people, how they fire people, and how

26
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,480
Speaker 3: business operates in general. And he was doing basically looking

27
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 3: at how police agencies selected the appropriate people for the job.

28
00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,720
Speaker 3: And I went to work for him, and I started

29
00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 3: reading all the general operating procedures and standard operating procedures

30
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 3: for law enforcement, and I kind of always gravitated to

31
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,120
Speaker 3: the crime scene procedures and I just thought, you know,

32
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 3: I think this is this is what I want to do.

33
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,160
Speaker 3: And I called the local sheriff's office for you know,

34
00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,000
Speaker 3: the town kind of where I lived, and I said, well,

35
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,320
Speaker 3: what do you need to do? What do you need

36
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,639
Speaker 3: to have? Education background, you know, what do you need

37
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,120
Speaker 3: to have to basically be able to work there? And

38
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,480
Speaker 3: they said, you need four years basically of either crime

39
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 3: scene experience or a four year degree in a hard science. Well,

40
00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,280
Speaker 3: I already had a four year degree, but it was

41
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,919
Speaker 3: in communication, which is not a hard science. So I said, okay,

42
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 3: but looking at like all my background in the science

43
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,160
Speaker 3: classes I had in the four year degree, what if

44
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,320
Speaker 3: I got a master's degree in a science. So with

45
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,760
Speaker 3: that two years of you know, the master's degree plus

46
00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,680
Speaker 3: what I already had, you know, would that be enough?

47
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,160
Speaker 3: And they said, yeah, as long as you've got four

48
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:02,160
Speaker 3: year combination. So lacking any experience in crime scene, it's

49
00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:03,800
Speaker 3: kind of like the old catch twenty two. How do

50
00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:05,359
Speaker 3: you get a job without experience? How do you get

51
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,679
Speaker 3: experience without a job. A master's degree was really going

52
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,280
Speaker 3: to be my only way to get my foot in

53
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,240
Speaker 3: the door. So I went and I got my master's

54
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 3: degree in nine months. I did it in three semesters,

55
00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 3: which was, you know, kind of how I do everything,

56
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 3: which is just throw myself all in. And I came

57
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 3: back and I said, all right, I got my master's

58
00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 3: Can I can I apply for the job?

59
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,600
Speaker 2: Now? That's so cool. I love that. I love these

60
00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 2: stories of like back in the day when there was

61
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 2: no Internet and we actually had to make phone calls

62
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,200
Speaker 2: and talk to real people to get answers. There wasn't

63
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,160
Speaker 2: just Google. So I love that because I feel like

64
00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,600
Speaker 2: when you work really hard to get where you're at,

65
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,560
Speaker 2: it's it just it just says something. So that's pretty cool.

66
00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 2: So did you have to do? You have to so

67
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 2: for my job, for instance, you have to go to college,

68
00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,600
Speaker 2: but then after you graduate, you also have to get

69
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,200
Speaker 2: a certification to do the job. Is there any kind

70
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 2: of certification to be a crime scene investigator?

71
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you can't learn what you need to know

72
00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,320
Speaker 3: about being a crime scene investigator from a book. Right,

73
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,480
Speaker 3: there are some traits I think that will assist you

74
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 3: in the job, right, being detail oriented. You know, we

75
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,600
Speaker 3: write a lot of reports, so you know, written communication

76
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:18,160
Speaker 3: skills are great to have. We testify court, Oral communication

77
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,839
Speaker 3: skills are great to have, presentation skills, but a lot

78
00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,599
Speaker 3: of what we do you have to learn. You know,

79
00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,400
Speaker 3: you have to learn on the job. So there's a

80
00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 3: field training program when you get into it. But there

81
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 3: are an incredible amount of schools that crime scene investigators

82
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 3: go to because so much of the learning is very

83
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 3: niche to the job. You know, we have to understand

84
00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 3: bullet trajectory, blood stained pattern analysis. There are schools for

85
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,359
Speaker 3: how to recover buried bodies. There's schools for how to

86
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 3: deal with surface skeletons, you know, skeletal remains that are

87
00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,760
Speaker 3: on the surface that may be spread out, Forensic anthropology schools.

88
00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,720
Speaker 3: There's schools for botany, there are schools for insets. There

89
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 3: are so many different little kind of intricate areas of

90
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:10,160
Speaker 3: forensics for forensic specialties that when you are a CSI,

91
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,560
Speaker 3: you very much need to be a jack of all trades.

92
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,719
Speaker 2: It's interesting because when I first I didn't really know

93
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,720
Speaker 2: anything about the field either. Obviously when I started and

94
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 2: when I interned at the Medical Examiner, they have actual

95
00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,200
Speaker 2: investigators that work at the Medical Examiner's office that I

96
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,559
Speaker 2: just thought there was one such thing as a crime

97
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,839
Speaker 2: scene person and I thought they did it, and no,

98
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 2: they just do it relating to the body itself. So

99
00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,680
Speaker 2: they go and take pictures and then they try to

100
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,919
Speaker 2: interview the family to see like if the person was

101
00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,320
Speaker 2: on any medications or if they left a suicide note

102
00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,239
Speaker 2: or something like that. And then there's like this whole

103
00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,599
Speaker 2: other department which is what you do, which is doing

104
00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 2: ballistics and blood spatter and all that to actually work

105
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 2: on the investigation of the crime itself. So I know

106
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,440
Speaker 2: that you've definitely have had your hands in all this

107
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 2: just doing this for so many years, But do you

108
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,359
Speaker 2: have a specific thing that you're like, that's my favorite

109
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:08,240
Speaker 2: part of all of this.

110
00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think every crime scene investigator kind of gravitates

111
00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,600
Speaker 3: towards one particular arena and they find something that they

112
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,920
Speaker 3: really love and then they find something that they find,

113
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:26,560
Speaker 3: you know, more tedious. And the IAI, which to answer

114
00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,359
Speaker 3: your previous question, certifies crime scene investigators. So there is

115
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,920
Speaker 3: kind of like a governing body and that's the International

116
00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,600
Speaker 3: Association for Identification. So it's kind of like how attorneys

117
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,039
Speaker 3: have the bar exam. Crime scene investigators have the IAI,

118
00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,360
Speaker 3: So there is an overall and then each state has

119
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 3: their state kind of IAI, and they provide training to

120
00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,880
Speaker 3: crime scene investigators. They also provide certifications, so even a

121
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 3: crime scene investigator that gets training through their agency can

122
00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:59,920
Speaker 3: also get certifications through the IAI, so you can kind

123
00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 3: of come in green and then you can become a

124
00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 3: certified crime scene investigator. You can become a certified crime

125
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,000
Speaker 3: scene analyst, you can become a certified Senior crime Scene Analyst,

126
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,720
Speaker 3: and those are the kind of certifications that a crime

127
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,119
Speaker 3: scene investigator can obtain. And you know that that works

128
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 3: really well when you go to court and you can

129
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 3: testify and say that you hold those certifications and those

130
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 3: you can also get specialty certifications through the IAI. So

131
00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 3: if there's something that you really find interesting, you can

132
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 3: seek certification. But you know, I think I always gravitated

133
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 3: towards forensic anthropology, Like I loved that aspect of it,

134
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 3: and I love the aspect of blood stained pattern analysis

135
00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:49,600
Speaker 3: because to me, it reads like a book. If you

136
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 3: know what you're looking for, if you know what you're

137
00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 3: looking at, you can you can look at the blood

138
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,200
Speaker 3: and it tells you somebody has been traveling through here,

139
00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,000
Speaker 3: or what direction somebody is going, And I just I

140
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,560
Speaker 3: find that so incredibly interesting.

141
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,400
Speaker 2: It is really cool when you when you say it

142
00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 2: like that, it is. It's really interesting, and it's cool

143
00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 2: when you can look at something and tell something and

144
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 2: when everybody else looks at it, they're just like, well,

145
00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 2: it's just a bunch of blood on the ground, exactly like.

146
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,200
Speaker 3: And you can you can tell to a degree how

147
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,120
Speaker 3: many blows or what type of instrument in there's patterns, right,

148
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,400
Speaker 3: shoe tracks certainly in blood. But if somebody you know,

149
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,960
Speaker 3: used say a hammer, and then they laid that down

150
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,439
Speaker 3: and they took it with them, you could see potentially

151
00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,560
Speaker 3: the imprint of that weapon that was left behind in blood.

152
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,040
Speaker 3: So even if they took the weapon with them, you

153
00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,839
Speaker 3: might see what that weapon was, even if it weren't

154
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,360
Speaker 3: at the scene, you could see it. If it was

155
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,240
Speaker 3: a screwdriver, if it was a hammer. There are all

156
00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 3: kinds of clues that can be left behind about the weapon,

157
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 3: the victim, and the suspect through blood. So I always

158
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,880
Speaker 3: liked bloodstained pattern analysis.

159
00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 2: That's that's so cool. It's really really cool. So you

160
00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,640
Speaker 2: did say that you have testified it. You guys have

161
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,920
Speaker 2: to testify at court. That's that's normal part of your job.

162
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 2: Have you ever been involved in any high profile cases

163
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,959
Speaker 2: that you're allowed to talk about or can maybe give

164
00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,800
Speaker 2: us kind of some of an example of something that

165
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 2: you did at the job and then you later went

166
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:19,920
Speaker 2: to court to testify on.

167
00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, certainly a court testimony is a huge

168
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,800
Speaker 3: part of what the crime scene investigator does because that is,

169
00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,280
Speaker 3: you know, the ultimate reason that we do what we do.

170
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 3: You know, the crimescene investigator documents the scene through notes,

171
00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,960
Speaker 3: through photographs, through observations. If it doesn't get translated to

172
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:45,360
Speaker 3: a report, it in a way it didn't happen. Because

173
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,439
Speaker 3: if you get there on the stand and they can

174
00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,080
Speaker 3: only question you through the photographs that you took, the

175
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 3: notes that you took, that become ultimately your report. You

176
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,079
Speaker 3: know if they ask you, oh, well, you know, did

177
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,560
Speaker 3: such and such happen and you go, yeah, actually it did,

178
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,160
Speaker 3: and they say, well, I don't see it in your

179
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,200
Speaker 3: report where you documented that. Oh well I didn't document,

180
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 3: but I remember it. Well, if you haven't notated that,

181
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,920
Speaker 3: it didn't happen. So your job is to create that report.

182
00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,839
Speaker 3: You are testifying to a report. So courtroom testimony, in

183
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,840
Speaker 3: the end, is everything. That is your ultimate job is

184
00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 3: that you are a witness to a crime for the state.

185
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,680
Speaker 3: That is your job as an investigator. So in the end,

186
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 3: your courtroom testimony is actually everything. So testimony is a

187
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,160
Speaker 3: huge part of what an investigator does. It is our

188
00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,760
Speaker 3: job to become a voice for the victim as a

189
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,880
Speaker 3: witness for them on their behalf, and to speak and

190
00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:48,960
Speaker 3: translate what we saw and to translate the evidence in

191
00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,080
Speaker 3: a way that the jury will understand it. Right. So

192
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,880
Speaker 3: I can't just get up on the stand and say

193
00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,800
Speaker 3: well I saw this, and you know I took DNA

194
00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,680
Speaker 3: swabs or I did this or that. That's not my job.

195
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 3: My job is to translate physically what I did in

196
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,440
Speaker 3: a way that the jury understands it. That's their job.

197
00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 3: Their job is to make a decision about somebody's guilt

198
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 3: or innocence potentially. So my job is, yes to say

199
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,800
Speaker 3: what I did in an impartial method or in a

200
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 3: partial manner, but they have to understand what I did.

201
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,200
Speaker 2: I went to court a couple times with the medical

202
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 2: Examiner when I was in school, and I don't like,

203
00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,160
Speaker 2: do they do they train you and how to be

204
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,920
Speaker 2: on the stand and what it's like to have a

205
00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,080
Speaker 2: really aggressive lawyer in your face because one of the

206
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 2: cases I went on, it was clear that this guy

207
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 2: strangled this woman to death with his hands, and I

208
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,199
Speaker 2: couldn't believe the lawyer on his side how they were

209
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 2: grilling the medical Examiner's office as if they did something wrong.

210
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,040
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my god. If I was

211
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 2: up there, I think I would be really intimidated. Do

212
00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:57,080
Speaker 2: they do they kind of grill you before you do

213
00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 2: stuff like that?

214
00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,840
Speaker 3: I think it probably depends on the agency, you know.

215
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 3: You know, I think part of my field training program

216
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,520
Speaker 3: was that you did go to court and watch another

217
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 3: crime scene investigator testify. But it largely depends on what

218
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,680
Speaker 3: you observe. You know, were they grilled, you know, was

219
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,839
Speaker 3: it an easy case or a difficult case, Was it

220
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:16,960
Speaker 3: a burglary or a homicide? You know, kind of is

221
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,600
Speaker 3: luck of the draw. It also depends on your own

222
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 3: personality type. You have to understand in court that that

223
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 3: is the job of you know, defense attorneys or cross

224
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 3: examination is their job ultimate job is to make you

225
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 3: look like you did not do your job right. I've

226
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,400
Speaker 3: been asked ridiculous questions on this stand right if I

227
00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,640
Speaker 3: you know, I took aerial photographs and a helicopter and

228
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 3: I was asked if I was flying the helicopter while

229
00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,920
Speaker 3: I was taking the photographs. And you know what kind

230
00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,920
Speaker 3: of training in I'm a very sarcastic person, and you know,

231
00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,600
Speaker 3: in my head, my first instinct is to be funnier,

232
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 3: to say, yeah, you know, I was flying the helicopter

233
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,840
Speaker 3: with my knees while I leaned out into So, you know,

234
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,880
Speaker 3: they ask questions like did you take an air sample

235
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,400
Speaker 3: to prove that a battery had occurred? And the thing

236
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,360
Speaker 3: that I know is that that doesn't occur. That's not

237
00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,720
Speaker 3: valid forensic science. The thing that the jury doesn't know

238
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,079
Speaker 3: is that that's not valid forensic science. The defense attorney's

239
00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,360
Speaker 3: job is to make me look bad and to ask

240
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,680
Speaker 3: me as many questions in a row as possible that

241
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,000
Speaker 3: I have to say no to so that in the

242
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 3: end the jury goes, gosh, is she very good at

243
00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 3: her job? Like did she she didn't even take an

244
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 3: air sample? The jury doesn't know that that's not valid

245
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,640
Speaker 3: forensic science. We don't do that. Like would I be

246
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 3: running through the scene with a ziploc bag trying to

247
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,040
Speaker 3: collect how does that even occur? So it's it's a challenge.

248
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 3: You just have to stay calm and answer the questions

249
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 3: as calmly as possible and not make yourself look worse

250
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,840
Speaker 3: by being combative or sarcastic on the stand, even though

251
00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,360
Speaker 3: in the head you're going, what the actual.

252
00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:02,600
Speaker 2: So you're like, I dated a dude like this before.

253
00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 2: This guy's a tool. I want to just like that's yeah.

254
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 3: Actually, And I mean I have you know before just

255
00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,680
Speaker 3: said uh, I've turned to the jury and just said

256
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:11,720
Speaker 3: that's not a thing.

257
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,960
Speaker 2: I love that. That's so great. So I guess a

258
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,000
Speaker 2: lot of this. You started working as a CSI before

259
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 2: we said like before it was cool. You have a

260
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,120
Speaker 2: T shirt that says that, which I love that. But

261
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 2: so CSI show comes out, and so I guess I

262
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,360
Speaker 2: was in my twenties when it came out. I remember

263
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: I was still living at my mom's house and I

264
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,960
Speaker 2: would come home from school and my parents would be

265
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,040
Speaker 2: sitting on the couch watching this stupid show, and I

266
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,840
Speaker 2: would just get so annoyed of how it makes it

267
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 2: look so glamorous. Their lab is beautiful, They're all beautiful.

268
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 2: They solve a crime in an hour. They have unlimited resources,

269
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,720
Speaker 2: and as you and I know, like when a person dies,

270
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,560
Speaker 2: there's no money. They don't care to spend money to

271
00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,240
Speaker 2: help you out investigating this kind of stuff. So what

272
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,920
Speaker 2: kind of an impact have you seen over the course

273
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,960
Speaker 2: of your career? And also, just like teaching forensic students,

274
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,080
Speaker 2: do they come in thinking that that's legit, what it's

275
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:11,560
Speaker 2: going to be.

276
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, there's been both good and bad. I think impacts.

277
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 3: I think, you know, to start off with the good,

278
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 3: I will say that it got an entire generation of

279
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 3: people interested in forensic science. And if it gets people

280
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 3: invigorated and interested in the real science behind it, that's fantastic. Right.

281
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 3: If it gets people interested in stems then you know,

282
00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 3: and gets them interested in pursuing a career in the

283
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,880
Speaker 3: real forensic science, then that's fantastic. You know, maybe there

284
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,120
Speaker 3: were a lot of people that ordinarily would not have

285
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 3: pursued a science career but thought, hey, maybe this might

286
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,240
Speaker 3: be for me. Then I think that's fantastic.

287
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,080
Speaker 2: And do these people though, then some because I've had

288
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,560
Speaker 2: this happen to like the students will start and then

289
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my god, I can't really handle the

290
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,120
Speaker 2: reality of what this is. This is really a hard

291
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 2: job to do.

292
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 3: Some Yeah, I think there's a natural weeding out process though,

293
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 3: of anybody that goes into a career, you know, like

294
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 3: that some are going to continue on, they'll push themselves,

295
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 3: and then some will say I don't think I can

296
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 3: do this. I've seen that in the career in general.

297
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,800
Speaker 3: When it comes to dealing with deceased individuals. There are

298
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 3: a lot of people that go and they think crime

299
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,880
Speaker 3: scene is cool, they go into it, and then they say,

300
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,360
Speaker 3: I don't think I can do this. I have nightmares,

301
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,240
Speaker 3: I'm afraid to be alone in my home or whatever.

302
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:36,040
Speaker 3: You know, crime scene is not for everybody.

303
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 2: So speaking of that, have you ever had any I mean,

304
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,800
Speaker 2: I know the answer to this, I'm sure, but do

305
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 2: you ever have any emotions attached to the case or

306
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,160
Speaker 2: like I know, for example, people ask me, when you

307
00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 2: would do an autopsy on a baby, do you cry?

308
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 2: And I'm like, no, why would I cry? That's ridiculous,

309
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 2: Like I'm doing my job. Yeah, if I cried, that

310
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 2: wouldn't be effective. So I'm sure you're the same way.

311
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 2: But do you ever go home and get bothered by shit?

312
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,360
Speaker 3: Sure? Yeah, I learned very early on. I'm an mpath

313
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 3: and I learned very early on that I had to

314
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 3: shut it off. And it was a very beneficial skill

315
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,360
Speaker 3: for me just in life in general. I think learning

316
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,320
Speaker 3: how it was hard for me, I think to learn

317
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 3: how to turn things on and off, and crime scene

318
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 3: actually taught me that skill of learning how to shut

319
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 3: it off. And because I think I remember in the

320
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,840
Speaker 3: very beginning, I had the emotions right, you'd feel it,

321
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,200
Speaker 3: and then you'd be like, oh, not the place right,

322
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,119
Speaker 3: not the place, not the time, you know, just being

323
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:45,159
Speaker 3: at a crime you know, I think in your field,

324
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,920
Speaker 3: you're you're removed. It's very clinical, they're gone, right, and

325
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,439
Speaker 3: that helps a bit. And I would be standing in

326
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 3: the living room of a house where the family is

327
00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 3: saying goodbye, right, and you know, brothers and mothers are

328
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,320
Speaker 3: saying goodbye to their loved ones. They're crying, and I

329
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 3: felt very out of place, like this is intrusive. I

330
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,400
Speaker 3: shouldn't be here, and I have to be right, it's

331
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 3: my job. But now I'm standing in somebody's living room

332
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:19,679
Speaker 3: and somebody has, you know, maybe committed suicide. And I

333
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 3: see all the signs of struggle that they were really

334
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 3: trying to not get to that point.

335
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:26,000
Speaker 2: You know.

336
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,280
Speaker 3: You see the self help books, you see prescription meds,

337
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 3: you see maybe notes that they had written to themselves.

338
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 3: You see the struggle that they had gone through for

339
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,000
Speaker 3: so long that they didn't want this and to just

340
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,520
Speaker 3: kind of get to that. And then having like a

341
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,280
Speaker 3: wife laying over her husband pray, crying and reading a

342
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 3: suicide note out loud, and I'm just standing there like.

343
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,040
Speaker 2: Eh no, And You're like, what am I supposed to

344
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 2: do right now? Like should I hold their hands? Should

345
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,439
Speaker 2: I just it here? And like act like and I

346
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 2: try to figure.

347
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 3: I try to be invisible, you know, because, as you know,

348
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 3: a law enforcement I have to be there to ensure,

349
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 3: you know, that the body is not hampered with in

350
00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 3: any way, but also as a human, I'm trying to

351
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,119
Speaker 3: allow her that time to grieve and say goodbye, and

352
00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,479
Speaker 3: so it's just you have to figure out how to

353
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,399
Speaker 3: be both human and an investigator. And I think a

354
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 3: lot of my journey just in life and the TV

355
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,720
Speaker 3: show and everything, is understanding that you can be both,

356
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 3: because I think a lot of investigators end up deciding

357
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,720
Speaker 3: you can't be both. And I think that's how we

358
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,880
Speaker 3: have some problematic investigations, is people just go, no, can't

359
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 3: be human anymore, shut it off.

360
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, when there's always so much more to the story.

361
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 2: It's you see that all the time, both in medicine

362
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 2: and forensics. I remember when I was a student, I

363
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 2: went on a suicide scene and it was crazy that

364
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,679
Speaker 2: the guy was the husband, had shot himself upstairs in

365
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: the bedroom and the wife was downstairs and met us

366
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 2: at the door crying. It just was so awkward, and

367
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,919
Speaker 2: that what the investigator that I was with went upstairs

368
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 2: and kind of left me downstairs with the wife, and

369
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 2: it was the same thing. I was just like sitting there, like,

370
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 2: what do I say, Am I supposed to talk to

371
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 2: this lady?

372
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:20,639
Speaker 3: Like?

373
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 2: It just was so awkward. And when we went upstairs

374
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 2: and took all the pictures and everything, then we said Okay,

375
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 2: we're going to take the body to the medical examiners. Now,

376
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,160
Speaker 2: his brains and pieces of his skull were all over

377
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,920
Speaker 2: the pillow in the wall, and I was like, well,

378
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,720
Speaker 2: are we gonna clean this up? And they're like, no,

379
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,719
Speaker 2: she's got to call somebody that And I thought how

380
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 2: upsetting that was for her, that she had to go

381
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 2: up there and see her husband's brain on her linens.

382
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,399
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it is hard to disassociate from that

383
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,480
Speaker 2: because you're a real person that has family and friends

384
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: and everything, and it's just it's really cool. But it's

385
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 2: cool that there's people like you that can turn it

386
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 2: off but also keep it on a little bit to

387
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 2: help investigate things. So let's talk about your your TV show.

388
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 2: How how'd you get that gig? Because it sounds it

389
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 2: sounds so cool you get to host your own TV show.

390
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you know my background obviously with crime scene.

391
00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 3: I taught forensic science, so I did a lot of

392
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 3: public speaking where I would teach and I was at

393
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: a you know, a public speaking event and I did

394
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,560
Speaker 3: not know, but I guess there was a there was

395
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: a scout in the audience. And I came back from

396
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 3: that event and got a message and said, you know,

397
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 3: would you be interested in, uh, you know, in putting

398
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 3: together something a pitch for a television show, you know,

399
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 3: And I thought about it. You know, this wasn't anything

400
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 3: that I had ever, This wasn't the goal. I wasn't

401
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,720
Speaker 3: you know, out trying to get a television show. But teaching,

402
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,959
Speaker 3: I think has always been my passion and having people understand,

403
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 3: you know, how crime scene work and getting people interested

404
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 3: in the science. And I thought about it, and like,

405
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 3: the path that I have taken has always been trying

406
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,120
Speaker 3: to get more and more people to understand and help,

407
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 3: you know, help people, help victims, be that voice, and

408
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,720
Speaker 3: get a larger audience. And I thought, well, you know,

409
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: this is a way to teach a larger audience potentially,

410
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,160
Speaker 3: right if I had this a show, I think maybe

411
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,400
Speaker 3: more people would understand forensic science, maybe more people would

412
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 3: get interested in it, and you know, potentially have more

413
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 3: victims get their stories out there. So I thought about it,

414
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,919
Speaker 3: and it was a it was a long process. It

415
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 3: took about eighteen months of developing a show, and we

416
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 3: developed it together with me in mind, you know, the

417
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: concept for crime Scene Confidential. And yeah, then one day

418
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 3: it happened and I got the phone call and said congratulations,

419
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 3: you have a TV show. And then immediately set in

420
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, how do I

421
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 3: know I can actually, you know, make a TV show.

422
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 3: But yeah, two seasons later we made a couple of

423
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 3: seasons of television.

424
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 2: That's so cool. I went through a similar thing that they,

425
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 2: you know, when I when my Instagram started blowing up,

426
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 2: all these people were like, do you want a TV

427
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: show in this? And then same thing, like I had

428
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 2: never thought about it. And then I went through the

429
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:26,840
Speaker 2: process and they would come up to me and say,

430
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: all right, well, what do you want your show to

431
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,400
Speaker 2: be about? And then I would tell them my ideas

432
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,879
Speaker 2: because I don't do all forensics. I do all pathology,

433
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: so they just think that there's no interest for medical

434
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: pathology at all. It's just all true crime right now.

435
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,639
Speaker 3: Well I got a little bit of that too. So

436
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: they they did say that the hardest shows to be

437
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 3: successful are science based, you know, science based and talent driven,

438
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 3: and so you know that and those are the two

439
00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 3: things that my show, you know, was my big thing

440
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 3: was when it comes to the true crime genre. You know,

441
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 3: when you look at true crime, we've we've heard a

442
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,360
Speaker 3: lot of true crime from typically men and typically like detectives,

443
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 3: and I wanted to introduce a new story right from

444
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: somebody from you know, a different angle. We hadn't heard

445
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 3: about it from a crime scene investigator, who I will

446
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 3: argue is closest to the evidence, and we haven't heard

447
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 3: from it from a female. So I felt like that

448
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 3: women were a little bit underrepresented in that true crime genre.

449
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 3: We hadn't heard from it from a stronger female, and

450
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 3: we hadn't heard from it from somebody that looked like me,

451
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 3: And I wanted, you know, that out there. I just

452
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: wanted it to be a new face, a new look,

453
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: not not to knock, you know, older white men, but

454
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 3: kind of heard enough of from older white men.

455
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: It's funny that you say that, because for those of

456
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,360
Speaker 2: you who are listening that aren't watching the video, you're

457
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 2: you're around my age, you have this really cool pink hair,

458
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: and you just don't look like the typical like woman

459
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: that works in office, you know. So I was going

460
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 2: to ask you that because I've had horrible experiences with

461
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: my profession and my appearance.

462
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 3: Have you had the same, Well, So when I was

463
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 3: in law enforcement, you know, I could not have any

464
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: kind of colored hair. They have policies against that. I

465
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: couldn't have visible tattoos and couldn't have you know, piercings

466
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 3: that weren't you know, in your ears, So in that

467
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: time period, I didn't have any of that. It's very restrictive.

468
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: So you know, I've always been kind of a push

469
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 3: the envelope type of person. And you know, when I

470
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 3: started out in my career, I wanted to be an

471
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 3: art history major. I've just always been more of an

472
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: artistic type of person. And so when I left law enforcement,

473
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: when I retired from formal law enforcement from being a

474
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 3: CSI in twenty fifteen, I was like, all right, yeah,

475
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 3: like gayme on right, I can do what I want

476
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 3: with my apparits. So when I was in when I

477
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 3: was a CSI, I had a faux hawk, right, and

478
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, I was on call pretty much twenty four

479
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: to seven. I had to have a hairstyle that I

480
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: could like roll out of bed and go to the

481
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: crime scene, and a fauxhok kind of fit that because

482
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,959
Speaker 3: didn't really matter how I slept, I just woke up

483
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: and went and it looked good. So I had a

484
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: faux hawk. And even then like when I rolled up

485
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 3: to a crime scene, if the deputy didn't remember my name,

486
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: they would always be like, you know, the the one

487
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 3: with the and they kind of like pointed to the hair,

488
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 3: and so they would. I kind of was known for

489
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 3: my hair back then, and so I always when I

490
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 3: got I went to get my hair done at this

491
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 3: really cool salon and this kind of up and coming

492
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 3: like a hair guy was, you know, next to the

493
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: station next to me, and he was doing all these

494
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 3: like vivid colors, and I was just that, looks so cool.

495
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: That would be so cool out of fohaks. But I

496
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 3: couldn't do that, you know, being in law enforcement. And

497
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: so I found out about like hair modeling where all

498
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 3: these girls got their hair done and they basically didn't

499
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 3: even pay for it. All they had to do was

500
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 3: just get it done for the photos for social media,

501
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 3: and they just didn't really have a say in what

502
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 3: got done to their hair, but they got it done

503
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: for free. They got you know, they took photos for

504
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 3: social media, and you know, it was good, and so

505
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, where do I sign up for that?

506
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: So as soon as I got out of law enforcement,

507
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 3: I started doing that. And so my hair has been

508
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 3: probably twenty five different colors. I've had extensions. It's been

509
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 3: glowing the dark. It's been blue, it's been green, it's

510
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: been striped, it's been pastals, it's been vibrants. And I

511
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 3: kind of it had landed on pink when I did

512
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 3: the public speaking event where I got scouted, and so

513
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 3: it's been pink ever since then. But it's been like

514
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: so many colors and people. So when I was in

515
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: law enforcement, I never had any issue with it, even

516
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 3: though I still kind of had funky hair, it was pink.

517
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 3: When I entered the corporate world, nobody gave a damn.

518
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 3: I don't think now, you know, I was in corporate meetings,

519
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: I was in senior management, you know, in the corporate world,

520
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: and I think more than anything, people kind of rolled

521
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: their eyes because it was always a different culf. It

522
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 3: would be like a different color like every six weeks,

523
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: because it would change, and you know, I'd be like,

524
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: you know, getting a drink at the fountain, and you know,

525
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: like Carol would be like, oh, I see your hair

526
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 3: is a different color. But like, aside from that, I

527
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: think people got used to it. They kind of just

528
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: roll their eyes. I think you have to fight. You

529
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 3: have to be really competent, you have to be really

530
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: good at what you do, and people really probably don't

531
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: care about your hair. But I will say that, you know,

532
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: since the show it Is, it has been my hair

533
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: color has been the number one thing that I've gotten

534
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: the most negative feedback about, And it's been the most

535
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: the number one thing I've gotten the most positive feedback about,

536
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 3: which therefore proves to just live your life and do

537
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 3: what you want to do because somebody's gonna say something

538
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 3: no matter what.

539
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're one hundred percent right. I just don't I

540
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 2: don't understand. Even when you were talking about your law

541
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: enforcement job, it's like they just arbitrally decided that ear

542
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: rings are cool, Like you could put an earring through

543
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 2: your ear, but you can't put one through your nose.

544
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: Like how ridiculous is that that they put these limitations

545
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: on things.

546
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's ridiculous. If you're competent, you're knowledgeable,

547
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: you're skilled, you know. I don't think any family would

548
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: have any issue if I came in and solved a

549
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: homicide about what color my hair was, right exactly. Really

550
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: don't think that would be the case. And I do

551
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: think it's funny that that's been, you know, the thing

552
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: that I've gotten, it's been very polarizing when it comes to,

553
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 3: you know, my social media, that people are just like,

554
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: oh my god, we love your hair, and then oh

555
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 3: my god, I can't even listen to anything that comes

556
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: out of your mouth because you have pink hair. You know,

557
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: like there's a color wheel, right, and pink is on

558
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: the color wheel, and it's like two ticks over from red.

559
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: So I don't understand why anybody feels that, you know,

560
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: red is an acceptable color and pink is not, and

561
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: brown is cool. But it just seems very arbitrary to me.

562
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: And I want to know where do they feel about

563
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: being bald on that spectrum, because.

564
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: I just don't. It's it's so funny, like what, what

565
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: would your hair color have anything to do with how

566
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 2: good you are at your job. It's just the dumbest

567
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: thing I've ever heard.

568
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: It doesn't And the and really what I've come down

569
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 3: to is that I'm comfortable with who I am, right,

570
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: I don't really care. I forget that my hair is pink.

571
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: I go out in public, It's just it's hair, right,

572
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. It's really unimportant. In the grand scheme

573
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 3: of things. But I think that when people feel comfortable

574
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: with themselves, people that are not comfortable with themselves are

575
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 3: very I don't want to use the word triggered, but

576
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: you know, I think they're very like, why did they

577
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: feel okay being expressive or being who they are when

578
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: I'm not okay with that? I think it's very like

579
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 3: it pokes the bear a little bit with people that

580
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: don't feel okay with being who they are.

581
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you one hundred percent. It's just

582
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: it's funny because I even see the transition. Like when

583
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: I worked in the hospital when I was younger. I

584
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: worked in the city and like nobody cared. I worked

585
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 2: for top surgeons, top doctors, and they came in and

586
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: knew that I was good, and they just they didn't

587
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: They like looked right past it, right. And then I

588
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: went to work in the Burbs and this was about

589
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: eleven years ago, and it was like a freak of

590
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: nature walked into building. They they didn't know how to

591
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: handle it, and they didn't handle it well at all.

592
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: And despite all my history and them even knowing how

593
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 2: good I work and everything, it just was completely ridiculous.

594
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by my book, Nicole

595
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: and Jemmy's Anatomy. Do you have my book yet? If not,

596
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 2: you better get it because it's really awesome. It is

597
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 2: an A through Z journey of the human body and

598
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: everything that could go wrong with it. Get it now

599
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: at thedorramodern dot com slash book. So that's really cool.

600
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: With your TV show and you you're still are you

601
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: working on another season or are planning on another one

602
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: coming out?

603
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 3: So unfortunately Warner Brothers Discovery decided not to renew Crime

604
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 3: Scene Confidential, so it is going to live with the

605
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: two seasons. Uh, but you know, I'm gonna see where

606
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 3: my journey takes me next and hopefully it takes me

607
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: on to another television show.

608
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure it will. It's it's like, now you

609
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: have your foot kind of in the door, and you know,

610
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: they people know who you are now, and I think

611
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: you won't have a problem.

612
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 3: With that at all. Yeah, And it was it was

613
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: really you know, people ask, you know, I don't have children,

614
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: but I have two seasons of television and they're kind

615
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: of the same. To me. That was my you know, firstborn,

616
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 3: and it was really important to me. Because that was

617
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 3: my that's my heart and soul, it always will be.

618
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: And it did something that I didn't anticipate. Right when

619
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: I came out, I thought it's going to be a

620
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: television show. But it's so much more than entertainment to me.

621
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: I met so many victims' families that never got to

622
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 3: tell their piece of the story. You know, I think

623
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 3: a lot with true crime, it ends up being the

624
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 3: focus on the murder or the aspects of somebody's death,

625
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 3: and what never gets told are the, you know, the

626
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 3: pieces of that person's life. We never get to meet

627
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: that person through the details of them as a mother,

628
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 3: a father, a sister, a brother, you know, the fun

629
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: bits of their lives, the things that they loved to do,

630
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: who they were as a person. You know, we tell

631
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: the true crime story and it's horrible. It's the headlines,

632
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: it's how many times they were stabbed, it's you know,

633
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: it's these horrific details that live on in memory, and

634
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: the family never gets to say, that was my dad

635
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 3: who came and picked me up from softball. And every

636
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: time I was up at that I looked over and

637
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: they were in the stands and we barbecued on Sundays,

638
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 3: and that was my sister, and she loved Doctor Pepper

639
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: and we would get ready and she would steal my

640
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 3: lip gloss. And these little moments that mean everything to

641
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: the family members, those are the moments that don't get told.

642
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 3: And that's what the show enabled the family to do.

643
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I love that, and I'm actually mad that

644
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 2: they're not continuing it because they really there's like this

645
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: fine line of exploiting people and a crime and your

646
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: kind of giving these people. I mean, think about how

647
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: horrible it is for one of your especially immediate family members,

648
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: for something terrible like that to happen, and how their

649
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: entire life is is different. You would almost say it's

650
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 2: over in a way, their life before this thing happens.

651
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,239
Speaker 2: And then how it's not just the person that lost

652
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 2: their life, but it's everyone in the family and friends

653
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 2: that lost a part of their life too. And to

654
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 2: have their whole entire life be like around this particular

655
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: crime instead, you have to make them be themselves again

656
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: and have a purpose to want to live longer. Because

657
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: if you think about especially like a child dying or something,

658
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 2: or a parent dying, it almost it almost makes you think, like,

659
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: how are these people even living on after this and

660
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: when everything in their life is constantly about, Oh, your

661
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: daughter was murdered, your daughter was murdered, then yeah, you

662
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: it's cool that you're giving them a voice to let

663
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: them talk about because they had a whole life with

664
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: this person before this happened, and it's not cool that

665
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: you're just talking about them getting stabbed to death and

666
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 2: everything else without really getting like an educational lesson out

667
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 2: of it somehow at least like that, and it's good

668
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: for the families, and there's not enough of that, honestly, Yeah,

669
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: I was.

670
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 3: It was very important to me that this was not

671
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: exploitative true crime that there was, that it was empathy

672
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 3: was always at the core that we really never mentioned.

673
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 3: You know. I think there were a lot of people

674
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 3: that said, well, how come you didn't talk about the

675
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: suspect or what happened to them because the suspect is

676
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,879
Speaker 3: not important in this this.

677
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 2: Is It's true they and they do go heavy on

678
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: on that, which is I mean, I do understand that

679
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: there's a level of interest because I every person has

680
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: a normal level of interest in it, because you almost

681
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: want to think, do I have a person in my

682
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: life that would do this to me, like, what are

683
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: the warning signs? What happened? How can I prevent that

684
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: from happening?

685
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 1: To me?

686
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: I think that's a huge thing. But you in order

687
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: to learn those things, you have to also think about

688
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,919
Speaker 2: the other side of the coin. And we'll get into

689
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 2: that a little bit later, because I do want to

690
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: talk to you for a moment about the Idaho murders

691
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: and everything like that, but let's talk about crime Con.

692
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: What Like, what's what is crime Con? I know you've

693
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: been there a couple of times and actually I'm going

694
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: there this year too with my daughter Maria. Are you

695
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: going to be there this year? I will not be

696
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: there this year, Emmer. I was hoping I get to

697
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: hang out with you for a little bit. I'm actually

698
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: not going to have my kids for a day or two, so.

699
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: Interact with people.

700
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,760
Speaker 2: But what so when you like, what is crime con? Exactly?

701
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 3: So crime Con is like like any of the cons,

702
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 3: it's a conference of all things true crime. So you'll

703
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 3: get an opportunity to meet any of your favorite podcasters

704
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: and then a lot of television folks and just anything

705
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 3: true crime. Basically.

706
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. So did you get to meet some

707
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: people that you wanted you were interested in meeting because

708
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 2: I guess once you have a TV show and you're

709
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: really in this field, you get to know who's who's

710
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: on TV, who'se podcasting?

711
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you know there's Paul Holes is likely going

712
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 3: to be there. He's always the fan favorite. The last

713
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 3: crime Con event I did was the crime Cruise that

714
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 3: went to the Bahamas.

715
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool.

716
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was super fun. Yeah, and what was that like?

717
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 2: Was it the whole entire cruise was was the crime

718
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 2: Con event?

719
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: It wasn't the whole ship, but it was a good

720
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 3: number of people, and so you know, there was a

721
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 3: portion of the dining room was set off for all

722
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 3: the crime cruise folks. And then we did different criming

723
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: Cruise like events. So I did, uh. I think I

724
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 3: did like three different speaking engagements. You know, it's you

725
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: get your little brochure and it's like, Okay, I'm going

726
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 3: to go to this event at this time, and then

727
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 3: I'm going to go over to this event at this time,

728
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 3: and you know, you still get your days to go

729
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 3: off into the Bahamas and do you know Bahamas events

730
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 3: as well, but then you get to go to all

731
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 3: the different lectures from your favorite, you know, crime coned speakers,

732
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,359
Speaker 3: and then they do meet and greets for everybody so

733
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: you can meet, get autographs and yeah, it's all it's

734
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 3: good times. Oh.

735
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 2: I love that. That sounds really fun. I've just I'd

736
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 2: never been and I'm like, I mean it sounds good

737
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 2: on paper, you know, but I just wanted to hear

738
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 2: from someone that actually was there. So that's cool. All right.

739
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the Idaho murders because I know

740
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: that you've talked about that a little bit on your

741
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: social media, right, yeah.

742
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 3: I would did the Idaho college murder doc as well's oh.

743
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah last year, right, that came out around March last year.

744
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 2: That to me has been at least this year anyway,

745
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 2: has been the most impactful case that's happened. I I

746
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: was really upset when I heard about it, just because

747
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: I have my older daughter is you know, she's already

748
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: past college age, so I had a kid that was

749
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 2: in college and I just felt so terrible for the

750
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: parents and the whole entire situation of it. And then

751
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 2: once the investigation started taking place and how that all

752
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 2: went down, that it was just kind of like, oh,

753
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 2: not really talking about it much on the news who

754
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: it was, and then all of a sudden, it went

755
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: down really fast in one day that they had arrested

756
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: a guy. And then when I saw the guy they

757
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: arrested that, he just scared the shit out of me.

758
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: His eyes are just crazy, Like I just he was

759
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: scary looking to me, and the whole thing bothered me.

760
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: So I've been really kind of immersed in this case.

761
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: Do you have any theories about do you think like

762
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 2: all the evidence that was presented on Brian Koberg or

763
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: do you think that it is at face value or

764
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: do you think there's going to be other stuff that

765
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 2: comes out? Well, I think certainly we don't know everything.

766
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 2: We don't need to know everything.

767
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: And that's how investigations work, that's how we ensure that

768
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 3: we get fair trials. So you know, certainly early on,

769
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,840
Speaker 3: when I was, you know, on CNN and doing the

770
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 3: news venues, I was making sure that the public understands, right,

771
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: I think, you know, the public kind of has this

772
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: immediate outcry to say, we want more information, we want

773
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: to know what's going on, And I get that. I

774
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 3: get that people want to know all of that information,

775
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 3: and that's not in the best interest of the victims, right, Yeah,

776
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 3: And I have.

777
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 2: A question about that actually, because there's a case this

778
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,479
Speaker 2: week that I'm going to talk about on a Mother

779
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: Knows Death about this Georgia college another college student that

780
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: just got got killed. And I noticed the same thing

781
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: in the news story on both cases of that and

782
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: the Idaho one, which was that they didn't think that

783
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: there was a threat to the public before they caught

784
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: the person. And as a parent that sends her child

785
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: the way to college, I want to know that if

786
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: this guy, I mean, that's the public interest from my perspective,

787
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: this guy that killed four students, or this guy that

788
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: killed the woman the other day at college, why is

789
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: that not a public threat if that guy hasn't been

790
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: found yet, Because if he's capable of doing that to

791
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 2: one person, why wouldn't he be capable of doing that

792
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 2: to other people?

793
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 3: To me, that says the police think that they targeted

794
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: a specific individual.

795
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's right.

796
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 3: You're stalking somebody and targeting them, So that means that

797
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: the general public is not at risk. That he was

798
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 3: specifically targeting somebody, Okay, And do you.

799
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: Think that at that point they had those particular people

800
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 2: on their radar? Because they were kind of like watching

801
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: them a little bit, that they knew that if they

802
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 2: really went out of their view that they were kind

803
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: of in control of what those people were doing at

804
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 2: that point in the coburger case, or yeah, just just

805
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 2: in general, Well, I just feel like maybe if they

806
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 2: said it's not it's not a public because there's other

807
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: girls that go to college there and stuff, right, So

808
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: there has to be a reason why they think that

809
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: he wasn't capable of doing it to somebody else. And

810
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: the only thing I could assume is that he was

811
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: under surveillance and they were watching where he was going

812
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: all the time.

813
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it could mean that, or it could mean that

814
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 3: they just had very specific information that this person was

815
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 3: enthralled with and stalking one specific individual for them to say, look,

816
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 3: we think this was a very focused, targeted event. This

817
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 3: wasn't somebody that was just a random attack. Right. If

818
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 3: it was a random attack, then that I think police

819
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 3: would be like, hey, we could potentially have a problem.

820
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 3: This is somebody randomly going around. Then they couldn't say, well,

821
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 3: we don't know what the risk is to the general

822
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 3: public because this is random. But if this person was

823
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 3: you know, specifically targeting one person, and they carried out

824
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 3: the attack on one person. You know, law enforcement would

825
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 3: potentially be saying we don't think there's a risk for

826
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: anybody else at this point, or like you say, they

827
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 3: already have this guide under surveillance, they're watching their following,

828
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 3: and they don't want to be like, it's okay, it's cool, everybody,

829
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: we're watching him, because then they're telling that person that

830
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: they're being washed.

831
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 2: No, yeah, exactly, get that. I get that. He The

832
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: interesting part of this is that he is a criminal

833
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: justice major in a PhD program, so pretty high level

834
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 2: criminal justice major. And I just wonder if he no,

835
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: obviously he knows a little bit more about the procedure

836
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: than the average person, like even someone like me knows

837
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: about how something like that would go down. And I

838
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: just I feel like, I don't know why. I just

839
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: feel like like some bombshells speaking like Nancy Grace or something,

840
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: some bombshell is going to come out that that is

841
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 2: that we're not expecting. I just feel like it's just

842
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: a little too sloppy for a person that knows how

843
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: things go kind of.

844
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just well, you know, certainly we

845
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: don't know all the evidence that's been collected. So we're

846
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: gonna have to wait and see what electronic evidence that

847
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: they have off of any computers and cell phones. You know,

848
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 3: I'm waiting to see there was a dog in the house,

849
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: so my you know, big thing was I was waiting

850
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 3: to see if they've collected any dog fur that matches

851
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 3: back to that dog off of his clothing or in

852
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 3: his car. You know, that trace evidence transfer is that's

853
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 3: always going to get you, you know, because you can't

854
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 3: say you weren't in that home. If you've got evidence

855
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: like that. You know, certainly any hair off of any

856
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 3: of these girls is transferred back. You know, I know

857
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 3: that there are those crime scene investigators are collecting his

858
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 3: vacuum cleaners, you know, his bed sheets, his clothing, right

859
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 3: if you know, if he's smart, we know he's trying

860
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: to get rid of his clothing and whatnot. But there

861
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,839
Speaker 3: are other things that you can't you know. I'm sure

862
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 3: you're like me. I've got pink hair all over my house.

863
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 3: Every time I sweep, it's just like plethora of pink hair.

864
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 3: So think about the amount of hair that he could

865
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,720
Speaker 3: have in his clothing or his you know, just anywhere

866
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 3: that's transferred back. Even if he got rid of the clothing,

867
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 3: it doesn't mean that hairs aren't shedding off of those

868
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 3: you know, the gear shift, you know, the pedals of

869
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 3: his car, his floor mats, you know, just the transportation

870
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: to and from. And that's physical evidence, not even electronic evidence. Now,

871
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 3: the thing that we that I'm really keeping up with

872
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: here is that this is going to become a it's

873
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 3: going to become a constitutional rights challenge. They know that

874
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 3: the DNA on the snap of that knife sheath is

875
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 3: really really critical in this case. We're going to be

876
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: looking at I think the defense team attacking that forensic

877
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 3: genetic genealogy because they're going to say, certainly, he doesn't

878
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 3: have a right to if his DNA is abandoned on

879
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 3: a crime scene, on that knife sheath, doesn't have a

880
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 3: constitutional right to his DNA. If his DNA was a

881
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 3: in our familial DNA was abandoned on the trash on

882
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 3: the street, there's no right to that. But I think

883
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 3: what they're looking at now is if the FBI or

884
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 3: if law enforcement used any types of databases, what right

885
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: do you have as a citizen to your DNA once

886
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 3: you have volunteered it into one of those databases. So

887
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 3: is this going to become some Fourth Amendment right, constitutional

888
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 3: right if law enforcement utilized databases like that. We know

889
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 3: they searched codis and they didn't get a hit. So

890
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 3: did they utilize any other databases? You know, my heritage

891
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 3: or twenty three in me, ancestry dot com. Do not

892
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 3: all of use the word cooperate in ear quotes because

893
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 3: they don't just freely share DNA information with law enforcement.

894
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: But there are some others. You can download your raw

895
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 3: genome from a twenty three and me site. Anybody can

896
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 3: do that, and then they can personally take that information

897
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 3: and then upload it into another site for other information.

898
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 3: And he could have done that into a different site

899
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: that law enforcement could access that is more cooperative. So

900
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 3: at what point now do you own the rights to

901
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 3: your DNA that you have voluntarily provided one of those

902
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 3: sources or sites. And I think we're going to see

903
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 3: the defense challenging that because we know that that DNA

904
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 3: information is going to be very critical here. And last

905
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 3: I heard they're looking at trying to defense is trying

906
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: to push this case back to summer of twenty twenty five.

907
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, And this is what sucks for the

908
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 2: families because they they just have to sit here on edge.

909
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: And I guess there's always I mean, even though it's

910
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: all signs are pointing to it with this guy and everything,

911
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: there's always that possibility that he either didn't do it

912
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: or he's not going to get in trouble for it.

913
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: I mean, like look at OJ right, Yeah, it's it's possible.

914
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: And think about like living through that trauma of your

915
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 2: child being murdered in such a in that way and

916
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 2: then so public and then having to live for years

917
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: after that on edge kind of and not having any

918
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: kind of closure. It's just terrible.

919
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And mark my words, I think right now, if

920
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 3: if they get all of those constitutional rights challenges through

921
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 3: and the DNA on the knife on the snap of

922
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 3: that knife sheath does make it into trial, I think

923
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 3: what will what we'll hear from the defense is just

924
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 3: because his DNA is on the night, on that snap

925
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 3: of that knife sheath, doesn't mean that he was physically

926
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 3: at the crime scene. Right He kept his office you

927
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 3: know at the college unlocked. Somebody could have taken it,

928
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: you know, taken that knife sheath from his office. They

929
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 3: could have planted it at the crime scene. We're going

930
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: to see all kinds of stories from the defense side saying, yes,

931
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 3: his DNA is on the knife. She However, it doesn't

932
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: mean that he stabbed these people. Just means that that

933
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 3: was taken from somewhere, you know, maybe that's his night sheaf.

934
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 3: Doesn't mean he stabbed him. It could have been placed

935
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 3: there by anybody. You know, we're going to start to

936
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 3: seek theories like this that come about from the defense

937
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 3: team once it does come to trial. And this is

938
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: why when I talk to family members who are grieving,

939
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 3: I have said in the past that it's dangerous to

940
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 3: wait to grieve on a specific thing because I see

941
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 3: a lot of times family members say, well, I'll be okay,

942
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 3: I'll get peace when this thing happens, right when it

943
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: goes to trial, when somebody is found guilty, when there's accountability,

944
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 3: because sometimes that doesn't come. You know what happens when

945
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 3: it comes to trial, you know, and you've pinned your

946
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 3: waiting to grieve on his being found guilty. What if

947
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 3: he doesn't get found guilty.

948
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: And it's a possibility. It happens people all the time.

949
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: It's which is terrible, but right, yeah, what are you

950
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 2: doing your piece somewhere. So I guess they only had

951
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: to tell us about the DNA that they found because

952
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 2: that was enough, along with the other stuff with the

953
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 2: phone records and everything to just get him in jail

954
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: and then they'll present the rest of this stuff at

955
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: court when the child happens. Yeah, so you're saying that

956
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that there's a ton more things that

957
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: they found, like you said, dogcrees or whatever, and that's

958
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 2: just not released because we don't need to know that yet.

959
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think so, And I think certainly they have

960
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 3: to release all that information. The prosecution and the defense

961
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 3: both have to share that information with each other, but

962
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 3: they don't have to share that information with the general public.

963
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: And how do you feel about the house being destroyed?

964
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I would always rather have it there

965
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: because of that. What if now, I think it's fairly

966
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 3: rare that a jury would take a trip to the house.

967
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 3: You know, I know that they've they've scanned the house

968
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 3: or they use the laser scanner to scan and recreate

969
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: that house, so with mot you know, they can model it,

970
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 3: so measurement capability is no issue. And I'd rather have

971
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 3: it than not need it. And while I understand the

972
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 3: argument that you know, people have to still look at

973
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: it and that it's causing you know, emotional harm, just

974
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 3: because you take the house down doesn't mean that space

975
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: isn't still there. People still have to look at that

976
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: space and know what's occurred. So, you know, I don't

977
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 3: know I would have Perford.

978
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:34,640
Speaker 2: I just went to New York the other day, and

979
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: I don't go there that often, and it's like every

980
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,480
Speaker 2: single time I I look at the skyline, I think

981
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 2: about nine to eleven. Like, it don't matter that you know,

982
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: the space is still there.

983
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: You can't erasee what's occurred in that space by taking

984
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 3: the house down. So I would rather as an investigator

985
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 3: have that and not need it.

986
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 2: I mean, is it cause you do this for a living?

987
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 2: Like there, they got all the evidence they possibly can.

988
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: There's like no way that they would ever have to

989
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: go back and get something else.

990
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing, even if they really you know,

991
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 3: if they release the house and then you know, trial

992
00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 3: happens in twenty twenty five, they've lost chain of custody

993
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 3: on that house, So they would not really be able

994
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 3: to go back in the house and collect more evidence

995
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 3: because the house isn't secured. So as far as the

996
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 3: evidence collection perspective, you couldn't go back in and collect

997
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 3: more evidence down the road because unless it's you know,

998
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 3: been sat on with lock and key, if you know

999
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 3: it's been secured with evidence tape, somebody's been you know,

1000
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 3: sitting on and watching it, because they would throw that

1001
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 3: out in a heartbeat. They'd say, how do you know

1002
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 3: somebody didn't plant this, you know, tamper with it, et cetera.

1003
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 3: So from that chain of custody perspective, you couldn't go

1004
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 3: back in. This would really strictly be for the viewpoint

1005
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 3: of the jurors to have them be able to go

1006
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 3: in and look and get perspectives and say, well, we

1007
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: think so and so drove by and they could see

1008
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 3: and through a window, okay, great, have them sit in

1009
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 3: a car and look and see could you peasially see

1010
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: from that point of view or from that perspective that

1011
00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 3: type of thing.

1012
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 2: Oh okay, that's interesting.

1013
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 3: So now, and that should be capable of being done

1014
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: with the modeling that they've done through three D scanning, and.

1015
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:16,920
Speaker 2: So that's that's like, that's something that I just have

1016
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 2: questions about too, Like, is that is that a powerful

1017
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: thing for the jury to see, or could they they could?

1018
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: Do you think that they took pictures ahead of time

1019
00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: to say like, here's from this road what you could

1020
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: see in the window, here's you.

1021
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I'm sure they took pictures, and but

1022
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 3: you can't take all the pictures. That's why, you know,

1023
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,719
Speaker 3: three D laser scanning is so important. If you're familiar,

1024
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 3: They use the three D scanner so that you can

1025
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 3: literally put yourself in any viewpoint whatsoever, so that when

1026
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 3: it comes down to trial, you can pop yourself wherever.

1027
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 3: So pictures are two dimensional, you can't really put yourself

1028
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 3: in that viewpoint when it comes down the road. But

1029
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 3: now that they have that model, you could put yourself

1030
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 3: anywhere so that it's the defence says, okay, but what

1031
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 3: if somebody was lying in the driveway right? Nobody's going

1032
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: to take that photograph, no matter how good of a

1033
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 3: CSI you are. But they could physically put themselves in

1034
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 3: that three dimensional model and then show that viewpoint.

1035
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. That what and what do you This

1036
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: is kind of a side note, but do you do

1037
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 2: you know what field of forensics that is?

1038
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 3: Uh, the laser scanning Yeah, so that was actually the

1039
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,759
Speaker 3: job I had when I left crime scene as. I

1040
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 3: went to work for a company that does laser scanning,

1041
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 3: and I taught crime scene investigators how to do the

1042
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 3: laser scanning, which is why I know about that.

1043
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: Oh that's really interesting.

1044
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's another method of documentation that crime scene

1045
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 3: investigators do these days, and that's to use laser scanners. Uh,

1046
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 3: it's it's kind of replacing two D documentation now because

1047
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,920
Speaker 3: two D isn't enough. We need three D documentation. So

1048
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,399
Speaker 3: it's it's typical now on large scale you know, high

1049
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 3: profile scenes or comicides or officer and all shootings, that

1050
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 3: crime scene investigators will three D laser scan a crime

1051
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:07,440
Speaker 3: scene so they have all perspectives and they can actually

1052
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 3: do three D fly throughs, recreate models, and then put

1053
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 3: themselves into any perspective.

1054
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's cool. It's almost like a video game like

1055
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 2: it really airs. But that's good for the jors that

1056
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 2: they can really because they I mean go into the

1057
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 2: house and stuff would be traumatizing for them too. I

1058
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,840
Speaker 2: can't even imagine having to see the crime scene photos

1059
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,280
Speaker 2: from that. So is that typical if there's like let's

1060
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 2: just use the Idaho House, for example, there's a building

1061
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 2: where something like that happens, that the police have custody

1062
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 2: over that building for x amount of time until they

1063
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 2: get everything they need out of it, and then they

1064
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: just give and then it just goes back to the

1065
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 2: owner and they're like, here you go, you could have

1066
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:50,959
Speaker 2: this back.

1067
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's up to law enforcement how long they want

1068
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 3: to retain control over that house, and then they would

1069
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 3: turn it over to the owners of the building and

1070
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 3: then you know, like you say, it's up to them

1071
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 3: usually you know, homeowner's insurance or whatever to clean up

1072
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,600
Speaker 3: whatever has occurred inside. Really yeah, yeah, it's terrible.

1073
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I've seen some of the things that

1074
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 2: I've seen. I just can't I do. I have actually

1075
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 2: have interviewed a crime scene cleaner before, and I've seen

1076
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 2: photographs of some of the stuff that they clean up,

1077
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 2: and I can't imagine. I mean, I see why the

1078
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 2: guy that owns the Idaho House said that he was

1079
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 2: going to donate it to the school and let them

1080
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 2: demo it, because why would you want to keep the

1081
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: house at that point. So that's really interesting to me

1082
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 2: because I didn't really realize that that's that that's how

1083
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 2: things went. I so while the police are there collecting

1084
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 2: the evidence, it's it's secured by police twenty four to seven,

1085
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: so nobody can Oh that's good. Its like, how do

1086
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 2: they do that? They put up a fence or something

1087
00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: or no.

1088
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 3: Well, so usually what they do is they can physically

1089
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 3: secure doors with evidence tape and then usually they'll put

1090
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,560
Speaker 3: an officer to sit and physically guard the property.

1091
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really interesting. Okay, so you're doing You're retired

1092
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 2: from CSI now, correct?

1093
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 3: Yep. I have a forensic consulting business, so I can

1094
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 3: consult with attorneys or you know, businesses that need somebody

1095
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 3: to review cold cases or or any crime scenes.

1096
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: That's kind of cool. Actually, I feel like I like

1097
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: on my website, I look at like I love looking

1098
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 2: at autopsy reports and just trying to reconstruct what I

1099
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: think happens. So you're kind of doing the same thing.

1100
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 2: It's really cool. All right, Well, thanks so much for

1101
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 2: being here today. It was really great chatting with you.

1102
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1103
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to mother nos death. As a reminder,

1104
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist assistant. I have a

1105
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

1106
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:07,880
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

1107
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

1108
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:16,880
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

1109
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

1110
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

1111
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

1112
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

1113
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

1114
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

1115
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

1116
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

1117
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and

1118
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or

1119
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks the technical have the Jabla