WEBVTT - Jessica Chastain is taking control of the story 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:08.600 Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and you're listening to a 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.000 brand new season of Next Question. Thank you, Thank you 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.520 very much. I'm starting this season, our fifth, if you 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.400 can believe it, with a bang. Jessica Chastain is not 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:24.120 only one of the most talented actors working in Hollywood today, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:29.000 she's also an outspoken advocate for gender equality who's making 0:00:29.120 --> 0:00:33.440 films and choosing roles that put women and equal pay 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.320 front and center. She's also up for her second Oscar 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:45.600 nomination for her truly transformative role as Tammy Faye Baker. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.280 Have you never done pictures without those eyelids? No, and 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.279 I never will because that's my trademark. And you know 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.680 if I take that away, then it's not me. We're 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:56.880 going to get to all of that and more, but 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:02.040 first we start with al Pacina. Don't worry, it makes sense. 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:07.640 When I was interviewing al Pacino on Sixty Minutes, he 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.400 took me through his production company, or we were walking 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.240 through an edit room, and he showed me a video 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:20.160 of you dancing in one of your earliest films, and 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:23.880 you were dancing with your head back and spinning around, 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.200 and you had this beautiful red hair, and he said, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.759 this girl is going to be a huge star. How 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.160 funny is that? It's insane? I mean al Pacino was 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:39.399 actually the one who really discovered me before I got 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:43.080 cast a Salome. I mean, the industry had no idea 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.240 what to do with me, and he was the one 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:47.840 that really kind of was like, hey, you guys, look 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.040 over here. And so it really started my career. Really, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.120 how did he how did he find you? I know 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.960 you were you studied at Juilliard, but how did you 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:04.520 cross paths with al Pacino of all people? Well? I was, um, yeah, 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.080 I went to Juilliard and I was doing a playoff Broadway. 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:11.160 I did a playwrights Horizons, Richard Nelson play called Rodney's Wife, 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.240 and I had done that not thought much about it. 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:15.839 It wasn't like I made a ton of money doing 0:02:15.840 --> 0:02:17.840 it or anything like that. I was doing it just 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.120 for like the love, you know, to get to do 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.920 theater in New York. And then I went to visit 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:26.120 a friend of mine um in Australia, and I got 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.880 a call from my agent that said Alfacino wants you 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.400 to come in an audition for Salom. I was like, what, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:35.240 it doesn't make any sense. I don't know anyone connected 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:39.120 to Alfacino, and I guess what had happened is Marta Keller, 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.440 who um is a good friend of his. Uh an 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.400 actress who um the what's it the Bobby Deerfield movie 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.079 or or where he plays a race car driver. I 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.480 forgot the name of that film they did together. But 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.960 she saw Rodney's wife and um and then told him 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:57.480 when he when he said he was going to do 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:00.480 you know, the movie of Salome, she said, you should 0:03:00.520 --> 0:03:04.119 look at this actress. Wow. And that's really you think 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.400 what started it all? Oh? Yeah, I mean I know, 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.000 even like you know, I was having so many difficulties 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.560 getting an audition for films. I was doing really good 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.560 at pilot season, not really booking anything, but I was 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.040 getting a ton of auditions during pilot season. And I 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.239 remember recently reading um an article like Backstage where a 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.720 casting director was talking about her experience. And in the 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.440 article she said, I remember Jessica Chastain coming in and 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.280 she had like four auditions that day, and she looked 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.600 kind of messy and sweaty. I was like, oh God, 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.480 that's probably why I didn't book anything. It was constantly 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.080 like I was driving everywhere you know, I had like 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.480 a whole like makeup station in the trunk of my 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.800 car depending on what the character was. Um, but no luck. 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.000 And then when i'm you know, if you're an unknown 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.520 actor and you're playing salom A in the place salom 0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.600 A opposite Al Pacino in Los Angeles, everyone in the 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.200 industry comes to see it. So it I could not 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.200 have had a better showcase. That's such a great story. 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:12.280 So what year was that, Jessica? Oh god? Uh so 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.320 the Tree of Life came out in two thousand eleven. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.160 I made Tree of Life in two thousand and seven. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.359 I don't know, two thousand and five or two thousand 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:23.480 and six maybe is when we did the play because 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.920 I'll also, when I was auditioning for the Tree of Life, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.800 wrote Terrence Malick a letter and that said like basically, 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:33.680 you know, I know sometimes it's when you don't know 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:37.400 who you're casting as a lead, it can be intimidating. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.080 But I've worked with her, and um, he kind of 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.000 vouched for me. That was my reference letter. Alba, Oh 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.680 my god. So I mean, do you still talk to 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:51.279 al now that we're on a first basis? Yeah? Completely, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.120 you know, he's my acting godfather. Call him on his birthday, like, 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.719 he's great. I love I love him. He will always 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:03.320 be such a huge part of my I mean he's 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.560 the reason why I have a career right now. So yes, 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.719 he's I I love him and I am. One of 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:14.000 my favorite movies is sent of a Woman I show 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:20.560 you you don't know, and I'm such I I love 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.480 al Pacino two. And it's nice to hear how generous 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.919 he is and how supportive he's always been to you 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.800 and protective. Yeah. Really yeah, like in an industry, you know, 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.599 he knew he knew the ropes really well, and he 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:39.960 was incredibly protective of me um coming into the industry, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.520 and like really made sure that I always even like 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:48.040 in Salomon, you're playing a character that's so sexualized, even 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:50.599 as it was starting out, it was never like, oh 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:52.600 you have to do nudity. It was like whatever I 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.800 was comfortable with. He had always been like That's why 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:58.200 I call him my my acting godfather. He had always 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:03.400 been so kind and protective and nurturing and so Yeah. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.640 In addition to being a brilliant actor, like one of 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:11.000 our greatest screen actors, he's a he's a wonderful person. 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.000 We're gonna have to send him a copy of this 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:17.840 podcast since we're seeing as phrases so much. When we 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:21.640 come back, how Jessica Chastain took control of her career. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.440 You are kind of taking control of your own destiny 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:40.920 because you started your own company in two thousand and sixteen, 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:46.720 Freckle Films, after making this incredibly impassioned speech Jessica at 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.360 the two thousand and fifteen Critics Choice Awards. Today's Martin 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:57.840 Luther King Jr's birthday. So it got me thinking about 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:01.880 our need to build the string of diversity in our 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:13.040 industry and to stand together against homophobic, sexist, misogynistic, anti Semitic, 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:19.360 and racist agendas. UM Martin Luther King Jr. Said, Our 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.080 lives begin to end the day we become silent about 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.600 things that matter. And I would like to encourage everyone 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:32.720 in this room to please speak up. Thank you. How 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.640 did that speech inspire you to branch out and to 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.280 do this on your own and to really take control 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.960 of your fate. Well, honestly, I wasn't really I didn't 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.239 really know what to do. I had the Critics Choice 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.920 I won this kind of It was the first ever prize. 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.240 It was for Someone's body work that year, and I 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.840 had so much come out. I didn't really know who 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:00.600 to thank because I had multiple films that were being celebrated, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:05.760 and it was like the morning of UM. I Loved Selma, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.760 I Love Avia di Verne, and I felt like, you know, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.360 I was sad that that film didn't get acknowledged in 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:14.520 the way that it should have been. And so I 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.640 just felt like, well, what if I can take this 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:24.280 moment that I have the kind of inspires um us 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.320 to like look inward um and and understand that if 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.440 we're not actually making but if we're not actively trying 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:36.440 to move the needle in terms of inclusivity, then in 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.240 some sense we're part of the problem. So I just 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.000 kind of took that moment to look, well, maybe I 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:45.480 can take this platform and amplified that UM. And I 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.040 was super happy because at the end of it, I 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:49.640 someone showed me later it was like cut to Oprah 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:53.920 and Eva, and I was really happy, like the fact 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.040 that they I don't know, I just really I grew 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.000 up watching Oprah AND's and I was just I loved 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.800 that moment and I and I then went forward to 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.480 go like, Okay, well, how can I now use whatever 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:11.080 platform I have to help encourage our industry to move 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:15.000 the needle in terms of um stories about women. And 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:19.800 in fact, Freckle Films has produced three movies, including the 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.680 Eyes of Tammy Faye UM and The three fifty five, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.240 which is an all female espionage thriller that came out 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.040 this year. How does it feel different for you to 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.400 be at the helm of these films versus other experiences 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.000 when you weren't well. I guess the big difference is 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:43.040 I get to participate in the storytelling aspect. So like 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.679 with Tammy Faye, we had already had so much in 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:50.240 her life like that was kind of tabloid e UM. 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.320 And I remember my research reading about Jessica Hahn and 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.800 her saying she just kind of wanted to not she 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.520 wanted to be left alone and not connected to Jim 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:02.000 Baker anymore into that part of her life. And when 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.560 I read that, I thought, well, and we're making a 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.840 story from Tammy face po V and Tammy and Jessica 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:12.160 actually never met in real life. Why would we include 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:15.960 the salacious details of Jessica Hant, especially when she doesn't 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:20.319 really want to be included in And reminded I didn't 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:25.080 want to profit off of another woman's trauma. So I 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:27.560 guess in terms of storytelling, you can kind of shape 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.600 a story and go, no, we're actually gonna the audience 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.760 and everyone expects us to tell one story, but I'm 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.880 not gonna fall into that. That's we've already been there, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:41.880 We've already um, you know, focused on the salacious, gossipy stuff. 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.040 Let's what if we do something else that we don't expect? 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:46.360 And so I guess producing you get to have that. 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:50.679 Say you have been obsessed with Tammy Faye Baker for 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.360 for quite a while, han't you? What is it about 0:10:54.440 --> 0:11:00.920 her and about her story that felt so compelling to you? Jessica, Well, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:03.280 you know I was on the press tour for zero 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:06.520 Arc thirty and talking about that film a lot, and 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:08.880 when when I saw the documentary again, you know, I 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.640 was jet lighted somewhere, and I guess I focused so 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.000 so much on playing a character who was very an 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:17.959 eye for an eye, you know, so much was about 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.120 revenge and you hurt me, I'm gonna hurt you, and 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.840 I'm gonna hurt you worse. And you know, it felt 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:25.760 like when I was watching the documentary was like this 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:31.720 healing bomb. It was such a different thing that Tammy 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:38.280 Face stood for. She was really into UH forgiveness and 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:42.320 UM believing that everyone is deserving of love without judgment, 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:45.600 which is like kind of like it's a beautiful, radical 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.120 act of love if that's truly how you can live. 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:50.840 And when I saw that, I was like, Okay, I 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.240 just felt like something I wanted to tell just because 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.839 of what I had already spent time focusing on UH. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.480 And then also I wanted to go back and celebrate 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:05.120 her the incredible things she did. I mean the Steve 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.400 Peters interview, her bringing him onto her show. He was 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:14.040 an openly gay minister with AIDS and she it went 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.440 it completely went against the all the conservative evangelicals at 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.760 the time, I mean, politicians weren't even talking about the 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:23.240 AIDS epidemic. And she brings Steve onto her show and 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:25.480 she looks into the camera and she reminds Christians what 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:27.920 it means to be Christian and you wrap your arms 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.679 around people and you love through anything. And I just 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.600 found that so moving, in such a radical act of love, 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:37.240 and it was a political act in some sense, and 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:41.280 she was never acknowledged for that. That was incredibly strong 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:44.360 and brave and right of her to do that, and 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.640 so I wanted to celebrate that act of courage. Tammy 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:56.800 Faye was really caricatured in the media and and became 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:02.120 almost cartoonish in her portrayal. I remember you no covering 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:06.120 her in the nineties, Jessica and I had one of 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:09.040 those shirts that said I ran into Tammy Faye Baker 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.320 at the mall or Tammy Faye at the mall that 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:17.439 had two big mascara stains on it, and um. She 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:24.720 was really I think underestimated and mischaracterized because of the 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.960 way she presented herself, wasn't she Absolutely? I mean that's 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:31.600 something the media really does though, right, I mean that's 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.480 something society does, and society women in the past have 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.760 been taught to be as small as possible, to take 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.680 up as little space as possible. Your voices have to 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:45.480 be quiet, beefin, be demure, you know, be submissive, don't 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:47.400 you know, don't talk to don't take up too much 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:50.200 space talking. Let the men do things. You know. It's 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:54.000 all about being as quiet and small as possible. And 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.120 she was the opposite. She was like, you know, gonna 0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.760 sing as loud as she could. She was gonna laugh 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:02.319 and cry and let her motions be everywhere, and we're 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:06.400 the makeup. That was just what society could say was garish, 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.520 but she because she was saying, this is my expression 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.800 of how I feel. It was like this. It was 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.720 like drag. You know. She was expressing how she felt 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.080 on the inside on the outside, so much so that 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.960 when people kept trying to change who she was, she 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.800 tattooed her face so no one could really like, no 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.280 one could wipe her makeup off, no one could change 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:31.280 Tammy Faye. And um, I think she was mischaracterized because 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.000 of that. I think it was because she refused to 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:39.040 play the role of the quiet, submissive minister's wife. She 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:40.880 was a minister in her own right. She went to 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.440 school for it, she ministered, and she was her own person, 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.040 separate from Jim Baker. Did you have assumptions about her 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:53.240 that were that were shattered by the documentary because you 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.960 probably consumed information about her and read about her and 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:01.880 saw her in the way she was trade by the media. 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:07.280 So what chattered those assumptions? Was it the documentary or 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.680 was it doing research for this film? Tell me how 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:16.480 your perception of Tammy Faye really shifted? I absolutely had 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.960 assumptions about her. I mean, the church lady on SNL 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.040 bringing Tammy Faye, like the Tammy Fay on Tammy we 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:30.640 have a bit of goop on our face. Oh I'm sorry, 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:34.640 that's mascara. Excuse me, I'm sorry, or Tammy Faye on 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.280 the Drew Carey Show. It was like playing up the joke, 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:40.000 like what you say that T shirt? I mean she 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.000 would hold the T shirt and laugh. She loved camp, 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.920 she loved um making people smile and laugh, so she 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.880 in some sense was like okay to be in on 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:51.960 the joke, to be like the butt of the joke. 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.880 I still think it hurt her probably. Um My assumptions 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:01.160 were what I read on the tabloids. You know, she was, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.080 for me as a child, an example of what I 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.320 didn't want to be. Um. I didn't want to be 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:12.560 someone who society deemed was unattractive, you know, because of 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.240 like how they you know, or a thief, like all 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.480 of these things that the media had put on her. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.800 That's what I assumed. And then definitely even like the 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.240 mess this is crazy, the mascara running down her face. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:27.720 There's so many people that I've talked to about this film. 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.120 And they go, oh, I remember sitting in my room 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.840 and watching an interview with She's crying and there's mascara 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.080 running down her face. And I always go like, are 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:41.680 you sure that happened? Because the or or are you 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.240 remembering a comedy sketch where mascara is running down the face, 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:48.680 Because the reality is I watched everything I could get 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:52.080 my hands on. There's not one photograph or one video 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.240 of Tammy Faye with mascara running down her face. But 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:59.000 we all have this collective memory of who she was 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:04.240 bay on satire and tabloids, and we see that as 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.399 we saw that as truth. And so I guess that's it. 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:11.720 Reading all of her books, watching you know, seven years 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:16.679 to research her and and prepare for the character. So 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.040 it really very quickly got rid of any misconceptions that 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.880 I in misinterpretations that I had. Do you admire her 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.359 when all is said and done, or do you see 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:34.480 her as a flawed person? I mean, after all, they did, uh, 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:37.760 you know, live high on the hog, as they would say, 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.600 with contributions to the church, and you know, did a 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.200 lot of things that aren't particularly admirable. I'm just curious 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.159 how you feel about her now. That you know her intimately. Yeah, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.080 well I love her now. I mean I've never met her. 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.399 I love her, and I can tell you for me personally, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:03.679 I don't believe the prosperity doctrine. I don't believe. I 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:08.280 think money always corrupts. I think this idea, but it's 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.359 in every religion. I mean, look at the Vatican. Money 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:16.760 is so closely tied to faith, and I think that's 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.800 absolutely an issue. Every Sunday we passed the played around 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.760 um to donate. I think with tele evangelism, it's your 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.479 congregation is now like so many people, the money just 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:30.560 becomes more it's it's more intense, but it's it's still 0:18:30.560 --> 0:18:34.359 this every it's still the root of money corrupts. And 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:37.560 so when money is closely tied with faith, is that 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:41.000 a pure thing? I like, look back at everything that happened. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.679 I don't think she ever lied to the public. I 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.879 think she was not very intelligent when it came to money. 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.240 Because she wrote four books and she recorded over twenty albums. 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.760 All of her royalties went straight to the church, and 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.760 then she took her salary from the church and in 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.240 the reality, what she should done. It's kept all of 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.199 her royalties and then take nothing from the church, and 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:08.919 I think that would have given her a better perception 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.800 from the public. It's heartbreaking at the beginning of the 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.560 film Jessica to see how she was other rise from 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:22.560 the very beginning, having been born to a mom before 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:27.439 she was married, and made to feel different than her siblings. 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:31.879 It was heartbreaking, and yet she was able to overcome 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:34.919 that with this incredible inner strength. And maybe because of 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:39.240 that she developed this incredible inner strength. But where do 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.800 you think that came from. I don't think, you know, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.680 it's interesting. I don't think she was confident. I think 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.720 she played that she was confident. I think you know, 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.479 she was an EmPATH, and she had a very like 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.080 unstable childhood, you know, the father left, and then she 0:19:57.160 --> 0:20:00.359 became the embodiment of the shame of the first marriage 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.439 in this Pentecostal community. And I think you know, with 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:06.800 an EmPATH, what they do is they walk into a 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:12.960 room and they find the dark energy because they try 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.560 to fix it. They try to like, if someone is suffering, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:17.760 they want to fix them, they want to make them 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.879 feel better. And so I think her confidence comes or 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:28.320 what looks like confidence, is more of her trying to 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.600 heal because she felt that by healing someone who felt unloved, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:37.760 she could heal herself. After the break, Jessica does her 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.560 best Ammy Faye, and we talk about what progress women 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.440 have made in some areas is quickly unraveling in others. 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.320 You spent hours upon hours in makeup chair, didn't you, 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.280 And it took a pretty serious toll on you. Can 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.920 you talk about that? Yeah? So the first I mean 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:10.119 the longest it was was seven and a half hours, 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.720 and the shortest might have been three and a half 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:19.399 four So every day it was quite a journey. I 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:22.080 mean I would wear compression stockings because after a few 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.000 days I started to get nervous. You know, when you 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.480 sit still. I don't know how people say they can 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:29.640 sleep in the makeup trailer. I cannot. You know, when 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:32.040 someone's touching my face, I'm like, okay, look this way, 0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:34.679 look that way. I look up down. I had earbuds 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.639 in and I would watch um the hundred. I had 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.800 hundreds of hours of unused footage that the documentary filmmakers 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:44.240 gave me for research. I was constantly every morning in 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:48.639 the makeup trailer, studying her, sending her voice, watching her interviews. 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:50.440 So by the time I got to set, I felt 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.280 like ready and like, really, Keyton, did you watch her 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.639 final interview I think with Larry King when she was 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:01.160 she was I think dying of colling cancer at the time. 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:03.959 She died a few days after that interview. Did you 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:08.000 watch that? Because obviously the film doesn't cover that. Yeah, 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.000 I mean we thought, like, are we going to cover 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:14.440 that part of her life? Um? And ultimately, like there 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:16.439 was a scene in the documentary that I found so 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.800 incredibly moving, um where she goes back to do a 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:24.280 concert and she's really scared and it's the religious community, 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:26.720 and you know, there was a woman who was kind 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.359 of mean to her and then or like saying mean 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.879 things about her, and and then she walked up to 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:35.360 this woman, not even knowing that that there was this 0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.320 behind her back happening. She's like, hi, honey, how you 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.679 doing today, and like reached out to her, and then 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:43.040 this one was like in the front row, like clapping 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.800 for the concert. I just thought it was so beautiful, 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.040 like switching the energy around, like you can be getting 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:52.399 something negative and just like that usually means that someone 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.240 needs some love. So if you return that with love, 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:59.760 it completely changes their demeanor and I liked that ending 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:05.480 for her. I didn't UM. I didn't want to really 0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:11.959 go into the cancer and her you know, physical ailments 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.520 that came after. I really, to me, wanted to connect 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:19.400 to her faith and her relationship with love UM because 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:21.560 I thought that that would be the most healing, and 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:24.200 especially you know, at the end the whole speech of 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:25.919 like God looked at me and said, Tammy, Phil I 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:27.720 love you, and I love you just the way you are, 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:31.040 and God loves you just the way you are. That's 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:35.000 actually something she said in one of her performances. And 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:37.760 I wanted to end with that. I wanted the audience 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:42.119 to feel connected to humanity in a different way. And 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.159 I felt like if we had gone, um, you know, 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:47.800 the route of her physical ailments, it would have taken 0:23:47.800 --> 0:23:51.199 away from that. You know. The role makeup played in 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.960 her life obviously looms large in this film as well, 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:59.360 and there's a very touching moment after she almost accidentally 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:04.119 overdoes on some prescription meds. She catches herself in the 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:06.800 mirror and she sits down and she puts on lipstick. 0:24:07.359 --> 0:24:10.800 She's interrupted by Jim and she says, Jim, can we 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:16.640 talk about Satan later? I'm just starting to feel like myself. UM. 0:24:16.840 --> 0:24:20.119 Tell us about that moment. It it kind of illustrates 0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:27.320 Tammy phase I don't know, happy place or comfort zone, um, 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:33.440 and the role that that this played in her whole being. Yeah, 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.560 I think you know. We started that scene, we had 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.760 to cut it out. It was too expensive. But her 0:24:38.760 --> 0:24:41.800 favorite song was Kasassa, so I was like humming it 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:44.320 getting my diet coke. It was like she loved her 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:48.240 die coke Kaserasra. But then there is the moment she 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:51.000