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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here and this is the Don't turn

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Speaker 2: it off. It's actually more interesting than it sounds.

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Speaker 1: Edition. Yeah. Can I just write off the bat shout

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Speaker 1: out Olivia? Uh, this was a I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: not the most fun topic. But she really dug in

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Speaker 1: and it's great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she's amazing at it actually, And this is yeah,

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Speaker 2: she figured it out, like there is something interesting in

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Speaker 2: intellectual property and she found it so.

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Speaker 1: Uh great, hudos, Ip.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are talking about intellectual property today. Everybody's heard

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Speaker 2: that term. You have to have been living under rocks

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Speaker 2: and not heard it. But we'll still tell you what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about, because we're those kind of people. I'm

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Speaker 2: just teasing everybody.

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Speaker 1: We're not talking about the Great Book The Yellow River

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Speaker 1: by Ip Freely no, no.

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Speaker 2: Okay no, or a building by Impay, nothing like that,

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Speaker 2: although that would fall under I'm sure some sort of

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Speaker 2: intellectual property protection. Intellectual property is basically the fruit of

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Speaker 2: your mental labor. It can be an invention, it can

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Speaker 2: be a.

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Speaker 1: Slogan, yeah, screenplay, song.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it can be a movie you wrote, it

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Speaker 2: could be a way to do business like business methods.

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Speaker 2: It's gotten so crazy now that types of strains of

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Speaker 2: certain kinds of bacteria can be protected.

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Speaker 1: And the whole algorithm.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another one, Like it just keeps going and going.

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Speaker 2: But anything that you can imagine, it doesn't even have

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Speaker 2: to be a tangible thing, Like an algorithm is not tangible.

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Speaker 2: Even when you put it down into code. It's not tangible.

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Speaker 2: It's an idea that you can make a computer you

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Speaker 2: to do really neat tricks with, but it's intangible. And again,

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Speaker 2: coke is it. It's a slogan that's not at all tangible,

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Speaker 2: and yet it's treated in most developed countries in the

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Speaker 2: world or most industrialized countries in the world as the

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Speaker 2: same thing as a property like your car or your

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Speaker 2: house or your wedding ring. Like it's protected, and the

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Speaker 2: way that it's protected is in really weird ways. Intellectual

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Speaker 2: property and intellectual property law are a very unique animal.

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Speaker 2: But what they all boil down to, Chuck is that

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Speaker 2: if you get some sort of protection for your slogan,

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Speaker 2: for your invention, for the screenplay you wrote, the government

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Speaker 2: says that's yours. You are the only person who has

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Speaker 2: any claim to it for X number of years, and

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Speaker 2: congratulations on the thing you came up with using your creativity.

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Speaker 2: And the whole purpose of having protection for intellectual property

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Speaker 2: is to spur creativity, to spur discovery, to spur invention,

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Speaker 2: to get it going. Because if you if you incentivize that,

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Speaker 2: if you say, hey, if you come up with the screenplay,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna make it so that no one else can

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Speaker 2: just come along and make the movie that you wrote,

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Speaker 2: that's yours, it's gonna make you want to keep pursuing

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Speaker 2: a career of writing screenplays. But if you wrote a

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Speaker 2: screenplay and you wrote it and it just didn't belong

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Speaker 2: to you from the moment you finished the last sentence,

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Speaker 2: and anybody could come along and make the movie and

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Speaker 2: not give you a dime for your creativity, for your labor,

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Speaker 2: you probably wouldn't do that, And so the public domain,

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Speaker 2: the cultural public domain, would suffer as a result. We

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have movies, we wouldn't have algorithms, we wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: coca is it amazing? Slogans like that. We would be

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Speaker 2: culturally bereft. If it were not for intellectual property protection,

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Speaker 2: and yet it is one of the most insidious legal

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Speaker 2: protections around today because it's been so thoroughly perverted from

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Speaker 2: its original intent.

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Speaker 1: Wow, it's been a while since who had one of those.

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Speaker 2: I feel pretty strongly about IP.

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Speaker 1: Here's a stat that LVIA found for US, which I

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Speaker 1: think is pretty interesting as far as like how big

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Speaker 1: IP is. And I think that this is from the

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Speaker 1: US Patent and Trademark Office, And things have been ticking

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Speaker 1: up as far as IP and how valuable it is

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Speaker 1: and how you know how much people are registering IP

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Speaker 1: and buying up IP since the nineties, and the US

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Speaker 1: PTO said by twenty nineteen says a few years old

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Speaker 1: that IP intensive industries accounted for forty one percent of

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Speaker 1: the US gross domestic product. That's great, and thirty three

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Speaker 1: percent of all employment was IP based. Yeah, that's startling.

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Speaker 2: We used to invent things. We used to make machines,

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Speaker 2: we used to develop airplace and cars and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: But now we invent ideas. Although we still invent stuff too,

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Speaker 2: sure of course, but for the most part, that really

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Speaker 2: kind of goes to show you like we have come

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Speaker 2: to say, like, no, we're trading in ideas, and those

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Speaker 2: things are very valuable, and you can build an entire

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Speaker 2: industry around certain kinds of ideas, which is pretty nuts

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Speaker 2: if you think about it totally.

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Speaker 1: So if you're talking about US law, there are four

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Speaker 1: kinds of ip that law covers, and we've talked about

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Speaker 1: some of these here and there. I think we did

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Speaker 1: a whole episode on patents in me. Well. If we haven't,

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Speaker 1: we will. Patents are granted by the government, and everyone

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Speaker 1: kind of knows what a patent is. I think that's

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Speaker 1: when you invent an idea or a process or a design,

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Speaker 1: and you can get different kinds of patents. You can

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Speaker 1: get design patents or utility patents things like that. If

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Speaker 1: you're like if you invented the rebox pump mechanism for

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Speaker 1: the rebox shoe that we talked about, you would get

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Speaker 1: maybe a design patent and a utility patent that says

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Speaker 1: no one else can put an another pump and a

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Speaker 1: shoe that kind of thing. So it has to be novel,

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Speaker 1: which is the real key, useful and non obvious. If

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Speaker 1: it qualifies, and you're generally it depends, but you're going

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Speaker 1: to get about twenty years out of that patent. And

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Speaker 1: you got to pay for it to get it, and

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Speaker 1: it's not cheap to get a patent. You have to

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Speaker 1: pay an attorney to do all the legwork and that's

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Speaker 1: never cheap. Right.

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Speaker 2: The next one, Chuck, is trademarks, which everybody knows what

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Speaker 2: a trademark is, especially if you grew up in the

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Speaker 2: second half of the twentieth century. That's when trademarks were

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Speaker 2: everywhere and kind of what we wore on our T

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Speaker 2: shirts and stuff. Right, Coke, is it who didn't have

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Speaker 2: that T shirt or a bud Light T shirt with

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Speaker 2: Spuds Mackenzie surfing on it?

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Speaker 1: I had has puts mckenzy shirt.

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Speaker 2: So trademark is basically a brand name, kim be a slogan,

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Speaker 2: and it is something that you specifically associate with a

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Speaker 2: specific company or a specific brand. Yeah, and you actually

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Speaker 2: don't even have to trademark or register your trademark just

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Speaker 2: from using you know, the Spuds Mackenzie drawing that you

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Speaker 2: see everywhere are used to you're exercising your right to

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Speaker 2: use that trademark and you can actually enforce in action

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Speaker 2: against infringement on it. So if you haven't registered something,

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Speaker 2: you'll see the TM That means that hey, this is

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Speaker 2: our trademark. Don't mess with it. We haven't gone to

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Speaker 2: the trouble of registering it. A registered trademark is that

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Speaker 2: a capital are in a circle.

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Speaker 1: That means that they.

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Speaker 2: Actually did go to the trouble of registering it, and

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Speaker 2: you really better not mess with them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Like an example is when you've seen court cases

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Speaker 1: plenty of times where you'll see a company go in

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Speaker 1: and say, here are one hundred and fifty examples of

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Speaker 1: where we used this over the years. That's people trying

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Speaker 1: to argue that they that's their trademark because they didn't

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Speaker 1: copyright it or they didn't trademark it.

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Speaker 2: That's why McDonald's had a legitimate case against McDowell's.

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Speaker 1: Right. Oh man, great movie.

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Speaker 2: There is also copyrights. That's another big one. I think

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Speaker 2: everybody's pretty familiar with that. But that screenplay that you wrote,

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Speaker 2: or the computer program that you came up with that

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Speaker 2: you coded essentially a creative work, and you, as the

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Speaker 2: copyright owner, you as the creator, have the sole right

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Speaker 2: to do as you please with that, to turn that

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Speaker 2: software into something that you sell over and over and

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Speaker 2: over again, turn that screenplay into a movie. Like it's

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Speaker 2: totally up to you, and nobody else can do it

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Speaker 2: while you hold that copyright, and copyrights are the ones

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Speaker 2: that last the longest. I don't know if we said

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Speaker 2: trademarks never run out.

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Speaker 1: Right, we didn't say it.

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Speaker 2: As long as you're using as a trademark, you never

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Speaker 2: your exclusivity never runs out. With patents, like you said,

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Speaker 2: I think twenty years. With copyrights, it's seventy plus years

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Speaker 2: after creation.

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Speaker 1: Typically, I think it's seventy years after the death of

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Speaker 1: the creator.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's plus the creator's life is ensconced in that

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Speaker 2: plus symbol.

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Speaker 1: All right, Okay, I got you, and we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: that later. That came from nineteen seventy eight. As far

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Speaker 1: as screenplays and stuff, I think you can get a copyright,

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Speaker 1: but the WGA has registration methods. You can register your

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Speaker 1: script but you don't even have to do that stuff.

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Speaker 1: But you would be wise too, because then you would

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Speaker 1: have to if you haven't, you would have to prove

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Speaker 1: that it was your id for idea first and someone

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Speaker 1: didn't rip it off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's that other way to do, which is mail

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Speaker 2: it to yourself in a sealed world. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but it seems like if you don't have to go

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Speaker 2: to the trouble of registering it. That would help your

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Speaker 2: claim quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the poor person's copyright. I've heard that before. Sure.

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Speaker 1: And what else? We got trade secrets and that's recipes, strategies,

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Speaker 1: customer customer information, which is big any kind of process,

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Speaker 1: like industrial process that you don't want another competitor to

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Speaker 1: know about. And I don't think you need to register

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Speaker 1: these either. No, And I meant to look up whether

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Speaker 1: or not that's an actual downside because then you have

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Speaker 1: to disclose things.

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Speaker 2: No, you, oh, if you, if you registered it, that

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Speaker 2: might be why you don't have to register it, because

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Speaker 2: I wonder if we said or not. One of the

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Speaker 2: reasons that patents are so beneficial is because you have

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Speaker 2: to disclose exactly how that thing works, so that after

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Speaker 2: your patent runs out, somebody can come along and make

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Speaker 2: the same thing from your your patent. Trade secrets, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you would not want to do that because they never

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Speaker 2: run out. Just like trademarks, they're your secrets for as

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Speaker 2: long as you actively work to keep them secret, like

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Speaker 2: you make employees and sign NDA's remember that episode that

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Speaker 2: was a good one. Yeah, or you you keep the

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Speaker 2: recipe to Kentucky Fried Chicken's original chicken like under lock

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Speaker 2: and key with armed guards standing outside. That would be

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Speaker 2: a pretty pretty good demonstration of actively protecting your trade secrets.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't need to register it. They have guns.

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Speaker 2: Exactly exactly where this.

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Speaker 1: All started is pretty interesting. We'll kind of quickly go

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Speaker 1: through the history. It could go as back as far

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Speaker 1: as ancient Greece, but as far as ip as we

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Speaker 1: think of it today. You can point to fourteen twenty

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Speaker 1: one in the Republic of Florence and June nineteenth of

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Speaker 1: that year when the government said, hey, Filippo brune Shelley, Nope,

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Speaker 1: Brune Leschi ski ski.

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Speaker 2: Remember it's is it really sound with the ch in Italian?

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Speaker 1: Filipo brune Leski There you go. Okay, I'm doing the accent,

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Speaker 1: you guys. We heard from Italians it said, keep doing it.

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Speaker 2: There you go.

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Speaker 1: Filippo was an architect and had a patent for a

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Speaker 1: technique to move marble over a barge, and they said, hey,

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Speaker 1: this was really smart and you should make money off

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Speaker 1: this and only you, and that kind of kicked the

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Speaker 1: whole thing off and over the next you know, one

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Speaker 1: hundred years or so, governments across Europe started sort of

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Speaker 1: doing the same things and getting together these ideas that

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Speaker 1: you should be able to patent and own processes and ideas,

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Speaker 1: including the Venetian Patent Statute of fourteen seventy four yeah,

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Speaker 1: which said, hey, it's up to us and our government

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Speaker 1: can grant you a ten year monopoly on the use

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Speaker 1: of a technology that you have made up, and if

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Speaker 1: you violate it, you can get fined or you can

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Speaker 1: get like a public citation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And again, by using government power to protect people's

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Speaker 2: inventions and ideas help spur creativity and discovery and new inventions.

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Speaker 2: And it wasn't just the Venetians who figured this out.

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Speaker 2: About one hundred and fifty years later, England said hey,

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Speaker 2: we're going to pass our Statute of Monopolies and it

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Speaker 2: basically said that if you have a new invention, you

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Speaker 2: have a monopoly to it for a certain period of time,

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Speaker 2: very similar to what we have now for patents. But

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Speaker 2: what's interesting about that is that that actually rolled back

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Speaker 2: even more draconian law where basically the king could hand

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Speaker 2: out patents or sell patents exactly to whoever they wanted,

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Speaker 2: and you could get a patent on vinegar, so like

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Speaker 2: there existing stuff. If you were a friend with the king,

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Speaker 2: you could be the sole producer of vinegar if the

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Speaker 2: king gave you a patent for vinegar. And the Parliament said,

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Speaker 2: this is actually stifling progress and discovery. We're going to

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Speaker 2: say this is limited to new inventions and for a

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Speaker 2: limited period of time, which were two really good kind

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Speaker 2: of points to add to that whole idea.

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Speaker 1: Totally well, and it prevented you know, they were definitely

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Speaker 1: getting kickbacks and or just outright selling stuff, right, the

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Speaker 1: king selling Yeah, the king was so here. In the US,

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Speaker 1: our Constitution's Patent and Copyright clause gives Congress the power

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Speaker 1: to quote promote the progress of science and useful arts

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Speaker 1: by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the

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Speaker 1: excls right to their respective writings and discoveries. This was,

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Speaker 1: I think past. I think the first patent was in

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Speaker 1: seventeen ninety granted to one Samuel Hopkins, who is producing

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Speaker 1: it had a method of producing potash. And they're like, hey, congratulations,

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Speaker 1: you are patent number one.

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Speaker 2: He said, wow, gee, that's amazing. I've never been first

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Speaker 2: at anything.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: He's done his shoelaces, that's right.

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Speaker 1: He was first on the internet, commenting all the time,

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Speaker 1: but no one counts that.

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Speaker 2: So this whole thing, if you, if you stop and

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Speaker 2: think about it's all legal fiction. Like the government is

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Speaker 2: saying you have a monopoly on it, but that's that

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Speaker 2: doesn't there's no actual concrete anything going on here. They're

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Speaker 2: just saying nobody else can use this thing that you

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Speaker 2: came up with. We're the government, we're saying so. But

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Speaker 2: the whole concept of protecting intellectual property actually is rooted.

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Speaker 2: It has a philosophical basis. There's a few different justifications

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Speaker 2: for it. The first came from well, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if it's the first, but the first in this list

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Speaker 2: came from Hegel, the German philosopher, who said that intellectual

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Speaker 2: property is an extension of you. Like if you go

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Speaker 2: out and you buy some seeds, and you buy some land,

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Speaker 2: and you grow crops from those seeds on that land,

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Speaker 2: those are your crops. You mixed your labor with your

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Speaker 2: own resources and created something, and that's yours. Why would

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Speaker 2: it be any different for your ideas? You used your resources,

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Speaker 2: say schooling or inspiration, and you used your brain power

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Speaker 2: to turn it into an idea or a thought. That

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Speaker 2: you could tell other people. I can't do that, but

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Speaker 2: you know other people can. According to Hegel, why would

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Speaker 2: you not own that as well just as you would

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Speaker 2: those crops.

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Speaker 1: Now, what's the difference between that and Lockian?

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Speaker 2: Lockian is there's actually not a lot of difference, to

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Speaker 2: tell you the truth.

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Speaker 1: So that's just another, you know, similar school of thought

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Speaker 1: from another philosopher.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, an earlier philosopher too, by a couple hundred years,

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Speaker 2: I think, But it's essentially the same thing from what

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Speaker 2: I can tell.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's also a utilitarian which means your INCENTIVI is

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Speaker 1: to create something, which is what you've been talking about,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that you know, no one's going to

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Speaker 1: spend a lot of time doing this stuff. If that

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Speaker 1: they it's all about money. If you don't have the

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Speaker 1: incentive eventually of fortune, then you're not going to spend

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Speaker 1: your time doing it.

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Speaker 2: Probably, yes, And I understand the difference now if I

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Speaker 2: kind of make correct myself. Locke was the one who

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Speaker 2: is essentially saying, you just like mixing seeds with land

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Speaker 2: and growing crops. You same thing with your thoughts. Hagel

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Speaker 2: was saying, like, you own your thoughts just as much

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Speaker 2: as you own your body, you own your thoughts, and

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Speaker 2: that they're your thoughts and they should belong to you.

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Speaker 2: So there's definitely a distinction between the two. I was confused.

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Speaker 2: Has happened sometimes.

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Speaker 1: So let's take a break, good idea. All right, we'll

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Speaker 1: be right back. All right, we're back everyone, and we're

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Speaker 1: here to talk about some criticisms of the whole concept

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Speaker 1: of IP. And things have really changed a lot since

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Speaker 1: the Internet age and the tech boom as far as

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Speaker 1: IP goes, things really really ramped up and took off.

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Speaker 1: And there's a legal philosopher named Samir Chopra and Livia

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Speaker 1: found this article in aon and basically said that, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of grouping all this stuff together and it's not

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Speaker 1: just choprah like other critics will argue the same thing.

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Speaker 1: If you say trademarks and copyrights and patents and trade

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Speaker 1: secrets and everything is all the same thing, which is IP,

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Speaker 1: it really just sort of diminishes each one's specific purpose

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Speaker 1: because they all have a specific purpose. And calling it

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Speaker 1: just intellectual property, you like, using the word property even

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Speaker 1: makes it sound like you're a thief, that you're taking

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Speaker 1: something tangible, when in fact it still exists, Like you,

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Speaker 1: if you download a song for free, you're not taking

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Speaker 1: that song from the artist. You're just getting that song

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Speaker 1: for free, and that song still exists and the artist

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Speaker 1: still owns it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. That was a big part of Chopra's point that

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Speaker 2: calling it intellectual property theft or crime makes it a

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Speaker 2: moral thing, whereas if you just call it copyright infringement,

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Speaker 2: it sounds like a bureaucratic issue, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that makes sense, and that that's unfair semantically to kind

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Speaker 2: of put it all together. But even more so, they

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Speaker 2: don't all really relate to one another as easily as

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Speaker 2: you would think by being all lumped together under one term.

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Speaker 2: And so, like most legal protection and probably all legal

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Speaker 2: protection of intellectual property around the world, they say, well,

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Speaker 2: there's actually we'll put some limitations on here. One of

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Speaker 2: the big ones is that there's a time limitation on it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And again the reason why is because they're they're saying,

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Speaker 2: there's a very difficult balance that's being struck here. One

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Speaker 2: is that you want to foster discovery. You want to

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Speaker 2: incentivize people to go out and invent new things and

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Speaker 2: come up with new ideas, because everyone benefits from that.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time, you don't want to incentivize

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Speaker 2: it so much that you actually disincentivize it by giving

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Speaker 2: people too long of a monopoly. So you give them

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Speaker 2: twenty years for a patent or something, right, which works

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Speaker 2: out because you know, I think about it, Think about

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Speaker 2: if the first mobile phone had like a seventy year

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Speaker 2: patent where we be right now? You know, so twenty

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Speaker 2: years seems fair, I guess in that context.

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Speaker 1: Well, also that gives you that's basically saying like, you

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Speaker 1: got this amount of time to do something with it.

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Speaker 1: M yeah, go, nobody else is going to do it, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: should do it for sure.

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Speaker 2: There's also like with copyright law as well, there's like

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Speaker 2: fair use, like we talked about in the Mad episode

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Speaker 2: how parodies allowed, or you can comment on it that

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Speaker 2: there's there are some exceptions to the rule. It's not

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Speaker 2: just like ironclad, and for good reason, because again, this

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Speaker 2: is a very difficult balance to strike.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we've had our struggles with that over the

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Speaker 1: year in our own show when we're doing an episode

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Speaker 1: on something where it would be like hip hop or something,

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Speaker 1: or record scratching, like those really lend themselves to playing

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Speaker 1: examples and we've never been super clear on the actual law.

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Speaker 1: We could probably get away with it, but we different

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Speaker 1: companies we've worked for over the years had different tolerances

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Speaker 1: for just getting you know, even having to suffer through

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Speaker 1: the hassle legally of seeing if it's okay to do that,

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Speaker 1: So we've always just not done it generally.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we have a few times, like I

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Speaker 2: think the Disco episode we did, but we were clearly

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Speaker 2: commenting on the stuff. We weren't just using it for fun, like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's also a time limit that we were

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Speaker 1: never sure, like you can play so many seconds, you

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Speaker 1: have to comment on it. And Jerry was always the

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Speaker 1: fun killer. You know, Mom had to come in and say, guys,

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Speaker 1: you can't do that. And not a great position for

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Speaker 1: Jerry to be in.

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Speaker 2: No, but a highly natural one. It felt right.

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Speaker 1: The other thing we should talk about is the cost

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Speaker 1: to consumers, which is there are people that say, and

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Speaker 1: of course this is when we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: pharmaceuticals because that's a big part of IP. But there's

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Speaker 1: an econoistman named Dean Baker and others who say, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, the effect of this IP law is really

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Speaker 1: making the one percent just even more rich, and there's

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Speaker 1: a transfer of wealth to the tune of about a

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Speaker 1: trillion dollars a year because largely because of pharmaceutical companies,

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Speaker 1: they're a big chunk of that trillion dollar. When you

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Speaker 1: grant a monopoly on a drug, and sometimes even the

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Speaker 1: government funds that to help make it happen. But then

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Speaker 1: this one company has this drug and they can charge

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Speaker 1: whatever they want for it, and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden there's a trillion dollars being you know, put in

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Speaker 1: this rich person's pocket and then transferring it to another

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Speaker 1: rich person's pocket.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and the trillion dollars he calculated, is that's

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Speaker 2: the amount we pay a year beyond what we should

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Speaker 2: be paying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pharmaceuticals mainly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really good, easy example, he calculated. They

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Speaker 2: make up about three hundred and eighty five billion of

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Speaker 2: that trillion trillion. But there's also other stuff too. There's

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Speaker 2: like types of fertilizer and types of seed that are

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Speaker 2: patented that because they own a patent, And if you

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Speaker 2: want this life saving medicine and you want this one

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Speaker 2: kind of seed, you have to pay whatever price we

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Speaker 2: want because we're the only ones who can sell it.

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Speaker 2: Because we have a government sanctioned monopoly. That all of

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Speaker 2: that adds up to about a trillion dollars more a

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Speaker 2: year that we're paying. And like I said, the pharmaceutical

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Speaker 2: companies in particular are they're an easy target. But the

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Speaker 2: reason they're an easy target is because they demonstrate so

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Speaker 2: thoroughly the problems with intellectual property protections. And that is

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Speaker 2: like you were saying, they make ridiculous amounts of money.

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Speaker 2: They charge whatever they want to charge because they're the

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Speaker 2: only ones making this drug for X number of years,

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Speaker 2: like twenty years or something like that. Right, and then

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Speaker 2: to add insult to injury, they have tons of government funding.

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Speaker 2: In the United States, the National Institutes of Health kicking

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Speaker 2: forty billion dollars for research, and I think the pharmaceutical

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Speaker 2: industry total spends about another ninety billion. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of money on research, but they found that they in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty, the ten largest pharmaceutical makers spent more on

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Speaker 2: selling and marketing existing rugs than they did on research

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Speaker 2: for new drugs. They also spent seven hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: seven billion dollars between I think twenty two thousand and

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Speaker 2: one and twenty twenty and stock buybacks and dividends and

437
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 2: stock buybacks are not the worst thing in the world.

438
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 2: There's definitely worse things you could do with your corporate cash.

439
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: You're essentially paying back loans that investors gave you. Nothing

440
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 2: inherently wrong with stock buybacks. But pharmaceutical industry, it's a

441
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: different example. And one of the things they could be

442
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: doing with that extra money, rather than upping their share price,

443
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: is pouring it into more and more research and development,

444
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of diseases that still need to

445
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: be cured, and they're instead spending it on ads that

446
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 2: you see on nightly news.

447
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. True, that is why there are some people out there.

448
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: And LVIA found this one guy from Columbia University and

449
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: economist named Joseph Stiglitz's great name, that said, what we

450
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: should be doing is giving out big cash p for

451
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: a new discovery, a new pharmaceutical discovery that's like a

452
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: game changer, and instead of spending your money on advertising

453
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 1: and marketing or on like drugs for balding and a

454
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: rectile dysfunction. Not saying that those aren't issues. I don't

455
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: want to diminish anyone's problems with any of those things.

456
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: To be clear, but a cure for cancer would be better.

457
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree. And or you know,

458
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: drugs to treat malaria when developing countries are being ignored

459
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: because they're concentrating on something like a cure for baldness.

460
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,399
Speaker 1: So like, let's give a cash prize instead of a

461
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: monopoly and say, hey, we'll give you I mean, I'm

462
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: just throwing out numbers. This it wasn't from Stigletz, but here,

463
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: we'll give you five hundred million dollars if you come

464
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: up with a cure for cancer. And then that's just

465
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: a cash award given to your company. And then it's

466
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: open source and any pharmaceutical company in the world can

467
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: make this stuff and get it out there super fast

468
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 1: and competitively speaking, probably cheaper.

469
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: Yes, And if you they threw out that five hundred

470
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: million figure the pharmaceutical industry, we'd be like, huh, yeah,

471
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 2: that's lunch. So Stiglay, you're like a doctor evil five

472
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars totally. So Stiglas is saying, like, you

473
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: don't want to just do away with the patent and

474
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 2: trademark protection, like you want to keep that because it

475
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: does incentivize research in other areas. What he was saying

476
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: is identify the really terrible diseases that don't have a

477
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: financial incentive to have research and development money thrown at.

478
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm like malaria. It's one of the top ten killers

479
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 2: in the world, but it kills people in less developed,

480
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 2: lower income countries who don't have the money to spend

481
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 2: on that kind of drug, so the malaria is allowed

482
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: to run rampant. What Stiglas is saying is governments can

483
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 2: get together, or the US could do it alone and

484
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: say we'll give you five hundred billion dollars for a

485
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: cure familaria and then the other stuff you guys keep going,

486
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 2: you know, and doing and making your money off of.

487
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 2: But how about an extra five hundred billion nothing to

488
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: sneeze at. So exactly, it's a it's a good idea,

489
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 2: but I think there's a flaw in it to chuck,

490
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: and that is that if the US government did this

491
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: and made it open source like he's suggesting, like you said,

492
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: then the rest of the world would benefit from the

493
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: US government funding. We'd become the drug research funders for

494
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 2: the world. The rest of the world would become free

495
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 2: riders who would just get the recipe for free because

496
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: the US government handed out that prize to the company

497
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 2: that created it or discover.

498
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd have to get together and sign a pact

499
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 1: with like most of the major countries of the world

500
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, that they all do the same, Okay,

501
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean it would have to be

502
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: a global push because that's and in fact, that kind

503
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 1: of segues into our next section, which is the global

504
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: globalist world that we live in. It becomes a little

505
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: sticky because IP law I think generally just covers the

506
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: country that you're in. I think when you get a patent,

507
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 1: you have to get it in different countries if you

508
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: want to sell it in different places. And there's a long,

509
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: long history of countries not respecting IP law from other

510
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: countries and stealing stuff. China is a big one. And

511
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: in the case of China, it's sometimes it's hey, why

512
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 1: don't you give me We'll let you do business in China.

513
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: You know, people we have over here will let you

514
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: do business here if you give us. If you like,

515
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: open source your stuff only to us.

516
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: Right, right, you have to partner with the Chinese business

517
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: who will have full access to your intellectual property if

518
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: you want access.

519
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: Right or they'll just steal it, which also happens.

520
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: That's a big one. There was an operation that was

521
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: funded and supported by China's government between twenty nineteen and

522
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two where Chinese hackers stole trillions of dollars

523
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: worth of intellectual property from just thirty companies, just took it.

524
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 2: They had everything to create pharmaceuticals, create guided missile systems,

525
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: like just they got everything, and there's not a lot

526
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: you can do about that, Like there's there's basically nothing

527
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 2: you can do about those things. Now China has those now.

528
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: And the big argument against that is that if China

529
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: can just steal ideas, it doesn't have to spend tons

530
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 2: of money on research and development, So that means that

531
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: it can make those products cheaper than the people who

532
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: actually whose idea it was and did spend that money

533
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: on research development in price the legitimate owner right out

534
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: of the market. And that is about as unfair competition

535
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: as you can possibly ever encounter.

536
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also something that has been going on forever.

537
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: It's not new. China's not the first country to do this.

538
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: Liba points out that when economys are emerging, and especially

539
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: during like tech boom, and they're catching up to richer countries,

540
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: then they will steal ideas, I mean everything from I

541
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: mean it happens all the time and has for decades.

542
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: The lawsuit guitars like Japan made knockoffs of like Gibson

543
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: and Fender guitars in the seventies and eighties and sold

544
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: a ton of them, and they were really good guitars.

545
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: And I think there may be a short stuff in

546
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: there about the lawsuit era, but it's always happened. Even

547
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: in the United States, we did the same thing, and

548
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: from the very beginning of our copyright law in the

549
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: eighteenth century, we very much explicitly exempted foreign works from

550
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: protection so we could go out and steal things like

551
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: the power loom and stuff like that.

552
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, those two Carnegie and Dominic guys are saying like

553
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: this is just part of the trajectory that developing economies

554
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: hit upon at some point in time. It's just way

555
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: easier to steal the ideas and use those to grow

556
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 2: your economy. But they said that trajectory also usually includes

557
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: more strictly enforced IP protections on the other side of

558
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: that development. And apparently China is starting to show signs

559
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 2: of that that they're taking IP protection a little more seriously,

560
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: at least according to the Carnegie people. But yeah, that's

561
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why we're in a trade war

562
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: with China is because of hacks like that.

563
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Hacks like that was almost

564
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: the name of our show. We'll be right back, man.

565
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: I'm still cracked up about hacks like that. So one

566
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: of the things about intellectual property protection is that it

567
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: is kind of grown in lockstep as American industry has.

568
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: Because as American industry grows and comes up with more

569
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 2: and more valuable intellectual property, they like to go to

570
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 2: the government and say, hey, why don't you guys come

571
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: up with stricter and stricter laws giving us longer and

572
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 2: longer monopolies to those ideas to that intellectual property. It's

573
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: basically the snake starting to eat its tail, where the

574
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: government has now become Charles the First and the corporations

575
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: are like all of Charles's first friends getting patents on

576
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: vinegar and stuff like that. It's not quite that egregious,

577
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 2: but it's the same contours the same idea. Basically, where

578
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: incredibly wealth wealthy people are given unfair, anti competitive advantage

579
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: over say startups or people who have even better ideas

580
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: through these monopolies.

581
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 1: Contour is one of my words, like cellar door. It's

582
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: not a combination. But oh yeah, yeah, the word contour

583
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: just I don't know, that's velvety to me.

584
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: Hack likes that.

585
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: So you're saying copyright law like it's just sort of

586
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: extended over the years as far as how long you

587
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: could own these ideas. In the seventeen ninety when we

588
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: first started out, it was fourteen years, you could renew

589
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: for another fourteen and then you know, over the ensuing

590
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: like a couple of hundred years. Basically, it just grew

591
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: and grew and grew until nineteen ninety eight with the

592
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act. That's when the seventy

593
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: years after the person's death was put in place, or

594
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: if your corporation ninety five years from the original publication

595
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: or one hundred and twenty years from creation, whichever is

596
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: less a little confusing, but it makes sense if you

597
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: think about it.

598
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that actually brought the United States into line

599
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: with international agreement on copyright limitations in time frames. I

600
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: think there was lower than other countries. What other countries

601
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 2: were at but regardless, people just kind of smelled a

602
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: rat and snuck around, actually ironically a souda mouse. It's

603
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: all frequently called the Mickey Mouse Protection Act because around

604
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: that time, Disney was supposedly in danger of losing the

605
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: rights to Steamboat Willie version of Mickey Mouse in twenty

606
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: twenty three, and they were lobbying very hard to make

607
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: that not happen, to get the Sunny Bono Copyright Term

608
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 2: Extension Act passed, which was successful. But I've also read

609
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: that Disney wasn't quite behind it like people say, and

610
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: that even if Steamboat Willie does come into public domain

611
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 2: this year, I don't think he did. But even if

612
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: he did, just that specific version of Mickey would be

613
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: in the public domain. And the Mickey that we know

614
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: in love will probably never be in the public domain

615
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: because not only does he have copyright protection, Disney also

616
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 2: uses him like a trait, like a slogan or like

617
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: a brand name. It's like he has trademark protection, and

618
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: trademark protection never runs out as long as you keep

619
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: using it. So Mickey will probably never enter the public

620
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: domain even if Steamboat Willie did. I didn't see that

621
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 2: he did.

622
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: Though I don't know. I don't think so, but this

623
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: just occurred to me that with every year we do

624
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: our show, we can look for a Halloween podcast story

625
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: from a year later in history.

626
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why we ended up doing Philip K. Dick

627
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, because he finally started to

628
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: come into the public domain.

629
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: I love it. And by the way, people that wrote

630
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: in that either had ideas or wrote their own stories.

631
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: I haven't looked yet, but I say those emails and

632
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 1: we're going to take a look at those, all right.

633
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: The next thing we should talk about is in nineteen

634
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: ninety eight the Dilgital the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, which basically,

635
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: the way I understand it is that it covered the

636
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: Internet such that it created a way for someone to say, hey,

637
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: you're using my thing on your website, go take it down.

638
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: I want to officially register that you are taking my stuff,

639
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: and as long as they take it down, then they

640
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: are not penalized. Right.

641
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: That was a kind of a big deal because it

642
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: allowed the Internet to start to flourish, and it kept

643
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: people who ran social media sites or YouTube or something

644
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: like that from worrying that they were going to get

645
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: their pants sued off and allowed for the spread and

646
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 2: really kind of boosted the economy quite a bit, as

647
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 2: you can imagine.

648
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: Sure.

649
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: One of the problems though, with these long protections, and

650
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: sometimes in some cases like trademarks like limitless protection, is

651
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: that so seventy years beyond the lifespan of the creator.

652
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: That is a long time. Yeah, as you can tell

653
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: from like the Halloween stories we pick, like sometimes we

654
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: have no idea what they're talking about because the the

655
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: language they're using is English, and you understand that they're

656
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: English words, but the context is so old that it

657
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 2: doesn't really make sense. Just like remember that one thing

658
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: about how I thought the guy was reading tea leaves

659
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: or something like that to see who's coming in and

660
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: yeah and yeah. So that's a really good example of

661
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: one of the problems of it, because when we use

662
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: those stories, we are building on them. We're taking the

663
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: we're taking them and putting our own spin on them.

664
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: We're making silly voice sales, yes exactly. We're creating something

665
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 2: new using that original work as a building block. And

666
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: that's one of the purposes of creating protections for creative stuff,

667
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 2: so that eventually it will spread out into the public

668
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 2: domain and people can do new, amazing things with them.

669
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: The problem is if it's seventy plus years before you

670
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: can do that, it's not as easy to make new

671
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: ideas from as it would be if it were twenty

672
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: years old or ten.

673
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, this one I understand in a way because like,

674
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: how many great films have we gotten based on the

675
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: works of Shakespeare? Which is Lvia points out that who

676
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: was it Jennifer Jenkins, director of Duke University Center for

677
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: the Study of the Public Domain. That's pretty specific. Sure,

678
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 1: that's an argument that Jennifer Jenkins makes, which is like,

679
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have you know, these great adaptations of the

680
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: works of Shakespeare's films and stuff like that, which is true.

681
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: But I also can see a world where like come

682
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: up with a new idea, you know.

683
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: Well supposedly it might have been Shakespeare said it. There

684
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: are no new ideas on nothing new under the sun. Like, yeah,

685
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 2: all the ideas have been essentially come up with, and

686
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: everything else is just basically a remix of it.

687
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's like seven real movie plots essentially, I over

688
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: seven dramatic I can't remember how many it is, but

689
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: that there is an argument to me and made that

690
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 1: there are really only seven different stories you can tell

691
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: and everything else is a version of those.

692
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 2: Yes, and we don't protect those specific seven ideas, we

693
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 2: would be totally messed if we if we did, right,

694
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: the protections are more nuanced than that. It's like how

695
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: that story develops, what the characters are doing in it,

696
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: that's what's protected. And so in that sense, yes, you

697
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 2: are coming up with a new idea rather than just

698
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: remixing a Shakespeare play. And I agree with you. I

699
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: I have the same that same kind of quibble with that,

700
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 2: the idea that you can't that is too long to

701
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 2: remix stuff, even though we do that every Halloween.

702
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: Uh. The Internet is very tricky though, because on one hand,

703
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: you want like uh, the idea of like the paywall.

704
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: You want people to hear your stuff and see your stuff.

705
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 1: But if you are and Olivia's is a great example,

706
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: if you're like a reporter in the South Sudan covering

707
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 1: something very important to you, you want everyone that you

708
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: can think think of to find this and discover it.

709
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: But you also, like it costs money for you to

710
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: be there and to be on the ground in the

711
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: South Sudan for a year doing this intensive reporting, like

712
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: a company needs to be paying you to do that

713
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: and to fly there and to stay there and per

714
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: diem and all that stuff, and they're not doing that

715
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: the goodness of their hearts. So they may say, well,

716
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: we got to put this behind a paywalk because we

717
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: got to make money.

718
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And when the Internet came along in the beginning,

719
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 2: it followed a hacker ethos, which was that it should

720
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 2: be free and open to everybody. Information is now easiest

721
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: pie to disseminate, and we should it should all be

722
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: free and unfettered. And we actually see that that colliding

723
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 2: with what you were just talking about, how you know

724
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: someone's reporting is valuable and is worth money, with colliding

725
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 2: with the idea that information should be free on the internet.

726
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 2: With Canada right now, where I think Canada passed a

727
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 2: law that says that if you are like a social

728
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: media aggregator and news aggregator, you have to pay the

729
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: creator of that news some form of compensation for aggregating

730
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: that news because you're making money off of it. But

731
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: you're just taking their work for free, right And Canada

732
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: is in a real pickle right now because Google and

733
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: Facebook said, okay, well, we're just not going to be

734
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,959
Speaker 2: available in Canada anymore because we're not going to pay

735
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: that and what's Canada going to do? So that seems

736
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 2: like that is very ironic. The free Internet, in the

737
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: form of the most profitable, most expensive and valuable companies

738
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: in the world, is crushing the journalistic value that's brought

739
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: by people who create news and come up with the

740
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,399
Speaker 2: articles that those companies make their money off of. It's

741
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: a terrible jam.

742
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: It really is. And over the years, of course, we've

743
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: had sort of activist crusaders like Aaron Schwartz, who in

744
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: twenty eleven was indicted for downloading one of our favorite websites,

745
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: jastore jstr database. What does that stand for? Actually, I

746
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: don't even know.

747
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 2: I can't even possibly come up with anything on this

748
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 2: short and notice chuck believe me.

749
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: But anyway, Schwartz downloaded millions of academic articles from the

750
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 1: jastore database, which is behind a paywall, and the idea,

751
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,399
Speaker 1: you know, presumably, was that he was going to share

752
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: those and he even had a manifesto, the Gorilla Open

753
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: Access Festo, where he's like, there's a moral imperative to

754
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: have these academic articles available to the world and to

755
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: someone who might not have the money in the global South,

756
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: these institutions that can't pay for these journals, maybe like

757
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 1: we should get it out there. And Jaystore did not

758
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 1: press charges. Yeah, but US attorneys came after him and

759
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: he took his own life at the age of twenty

760
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 1: six and twenty thirteen before the trial started.

761
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, US attorneys Carmen Ortiz and Steven Hayman really aggressively

762
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: pursued charges against him. And it's kind of explained that

763
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 2: he was the scapegoat in the post WikiLeaks world. They

764
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 2: were seeking to make an example out of him. And yeah,

765
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: he took his life at twenty six, and like a

766
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: real luminary was lost, especially if you stop and consider

767
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: what he was doing, and especially if you stop and

768
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: consider that Jay Store was like, you gave the articles back,

769
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: We're not going to press charges. And if you want

770
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: to know like a little peak behind what Aaron Schwartz

771
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: was doing, if you're like that's a weird thing to

772
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: die over scientific journal articles, who cares. There's an amazing

773
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: article from Prisonomics that Alec Mayasi wrote in twenty thirteen

774
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 2: called why is Science behind a paywall? And everyone should

775
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: read that because it's about the scientific journal publishing racket

776
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: that is basically keeping science in the hands of just

777
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: the wealthiest universities in the world and out of everybody

778
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 2: else's hands because they make time of money off of it,

779
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: even though science is supposed to be spread everywhere far

780
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 2: and wide, so people can try new things based on

781
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 2: those findings.

782
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: Because money's the root of all evil.

783
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 2: Right, there's an article that I think Dean Baker wrote

784
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 2: his ip the Root of All Evil?

785
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting, we're talking about earlier. Yeah, So enforcing this stuff,

786
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,880
Speaker 1: especially on the Internet, has been very tricky over recent years.

787
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: When you talk about websites like BitTorrent and Napster. Back

788
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: in the day, lime wire is what I use, remember LimeWire.

789
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 2: And what was the other one with the why? I

790
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 2: can't remember, but yes.

791
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. Someone will write in let us know.

792
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: But Napster if you don't know about that, and you're

793
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: pretty young and you were a kid when that happened,

794
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: that was sort of one of the first free music

795
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 1: downloading sites, and it was all over the news at

796
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: the time because it devastated the music industry in a

797
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: lot of ways, and a lawsuit shut them down in

798
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: two thousand and one. But this was a case where

799
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: the world and the internet and the music industry pivoted

800
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: eventually when things like Spotify and Pandora came along and said, hey,

801
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: we can't police this. You cannot shut down people trading

802
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,399
Speaker 1: music online. The genie has left the bottle. It's too late.

803
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 1: But why don't we get together and at least we'll

804
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: start these services where people can sign up and they

805
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: can pay for this stuff, because we think people will

806
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: do that. They may not buy your records anymore, but

807
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 1: they'll pay ten bucks a month or whatever for unlimited music,

808
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: and then we'll give you a tiny little piece of it.

809
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 1: And they said, all right, I guess that's the best

810
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: we can do. This is a stat Livia found in

811
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two inflation adjusted dollars revenue from and this

812
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: is just music sales like selling a CD or whatever.

813
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: At the time in nineteen ninety nine it was twenty

814
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: six almost twenty six billion dollars, which was the peak,

815
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: went all the way down to eight point three billion

816
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen and twenty fifth, and as backup as

817
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: of a couple of years ago, to about sixteen billion,

818
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: which is still you know, a little more than a

819
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: little less than half. I guess of the peak because

820
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: of largely because of like paid subscriptions and stuff like that.

821
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: But that's a huge decline and the only reason music, Like,

822
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: if you complain about the price of concert tickets, it's

823
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: because you stopped paying for recorded music. That's there's a

824
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 1: direct line you can draw between musicians having to make

825
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 1: money somehow and you stealing their music.

826
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: That's the thing. It's not necessarily the musicians making that money.

827
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: Like there's huge companies that make most of the money

828
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: on a ticket these days, and.

829
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 1: That's a like a concert ticket.

830
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why tickets sales and prices are so jecked,

831
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: Like you can go on to Ticketmaster or something like

832
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 2: that and the show won't be sold out, and yet

833
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: they're suddenly at scalper prices for some reason. It makes

834
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: no sense. It's a total racket. And that's the reason

835
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: why it's a record because again, like you said, they

836
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: stopped making as much money off of recorded music, so

837
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: they figured out how to make as much money as

838
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 2: they could off of live music. Where before, Yeah, that

839
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: was like that was the artist's piece, the live thing,

840
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 2: Like the record company got the record money you go

841
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 2: off and do your tour. We don't care. Have as

842
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: much fun as you like. And when the record company's

843
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: pie was removed by Napster completely just chattered. They moved

844
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: over to Live and now they have a stranglehold on

845
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: ticket prices, which is awful.

846
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean back in the day it was ticket

847
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: prices were low because you toured to support the album sales. Yeah,

848
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: you put out a record, you go on a big tour,

849
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: you charge like eight to fifteen dollars, and you sold merch.

850
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: You got some money, merch money, and you sold a

851
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: ton of records. Once the record thing went away, they

852
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: had to make money and then all the other you know.

853
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 1: Of course, you know, not knocking them because we work

854
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: with these people, but promoters and venus and they all

855
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 1: take a big piece public service announcement. If you'll allow

856
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: really quickly, please when you go to buy a stuff

857
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: you should know live ticket, please please please only go

858
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 1: and make sure you're looking at your computer screen, make

859
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 1: sure you're going to the ven you only because when

860
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: you type in stuff you should know live Boston, the

861
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: first thing that pops up might be a scalper site

862
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: and you might not realize it's a scalper site because

863
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: they don't look like, you know, shady guys and leather

864
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: jackets on the corner anymore. It looks like, oh, this

865
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: is just the place where you buy the tickets to

866
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck show. And we had a few people

867
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: that wrote in and said like, hey, I just paid

868
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: two hundred dollars for this ticket blah blah blah blah blah,

869
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: and I'm like, you went to a scalper site and

870
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 1: they said, no, I didn't. And I said, I guarantee

871
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: you did, because our tickets are not more than like whatever,

872
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: like thirty five bucks or something. So just people should

873
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: know that we never have a chance to say that.

874
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: So please don't buy scalper ticket unless you just can't

875
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: get a ticket and you're loaded and don't care.

876
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the original price is thirty five dollars.

877
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: And then there's you know, whatever fees the venue puts

878
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: on it, and then once you get out of away

879
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: from the venue, it just keeps going more and more

880
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: people put more and more egregious fees on it. So

881
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: I think the best thing to do is to either

882
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: if you can go to the box office and buy

883
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: them directly. That is far and away your cheapest as

884
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,439
Speaker 2: close as you're going to get to face value. And

885
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: if you can't do that, look for pre sales. We

886
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 2: always have pre sales, a couple of days of pre

887
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 2: sales first where that has the least amount of fees

888
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 2: attached to it. There's the fewest cooks in the kitchen

889
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 2: at that point, and then after that and regular sales

890
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 2: when it just turns into the wild West.

891
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, we love these live shows, but I

892
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: gotta say once my eyes were really open once we

893
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: started doing it as to how it all works. It's

894
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: really really kind of like, uh, okay.

895
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we can't do anything about it. It's like, oh,

896
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: you guys can sell the tickets yourselves then, and no,

897
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 2: we can't. We can't possibly do that. Where you have

898
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 2: to deal with the people that you have to deal with,

899
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: and there are some that are better than others. There's

900
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 2: some that are there's promoters and ticket sellers that are

901
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 2: aware that there is a lot of terribleness to their

902
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 2: industry and they're trying to do the opposite, and you

903
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: can seek them out, but they're not in every city.

904
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 2: You're eventually going to run into having to work with

905
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,959
Speaker 2: people that you don't want to work with, and that's

906
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: just part of being on tour.

907
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: That's right. And this all started because of Napster and

908
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: me talking about Napster.

909
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 2: That's right.

910
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: I don't know how to close that loop other than

911
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: to say I don't know.

912
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: We could just end the episode.

913
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I got nothing else.

914
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 2: Okay, I got nothing else either. If you want to

915
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 2: know more about intellectual property protection, there's a lot of

916
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 2: really interesting, if not kind of dry, articles out there

917
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 2: about it. And since I said dry, it's time for

918
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: a listener mail.

919
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,360
Speaker 1: It's time for Chuck. This is I just thought a

920
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: pretty cool little tidbit from Nicole Adreon. Hey guys, wanted

921
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,400
Speaker 1: to say thanks for the show. Love listening while I

922
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: drive and learning something new, and you always infuse some

923
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: laughter into my day. It just listened to the episode

924
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: on the Manhattan Grid. It's an oldie but a goodie,

925
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: and as a gal who grew up in the shadows

926
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: of New York City on Long Island, spent quite a

927
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: lot of time there and hold it near and dear

928
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: to my heart. One thing you missed out on, though,

929
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 1: was a little explanation on Broadway. You mentioned that it

930
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: does not stay consistent with a grid. And here's the thing.

931
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: The reasoning for this is because it was a deer

932
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: run that indigenous people used to hunt prior to the

933
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: Dutch coming in and colonizing the island. There are also

934
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: some really interesting studies and maps that were created to

935
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: assess what plants were native to the island before it

936
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: became a concrete jungle. So Broadway, like that little diagonal

937
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 1: thing was a deer run and it became a road eventually.

938
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 2: I guess that's very cool.

939
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: Pretty cool anyway, thanks for the opportunity to learn. We'd

940
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: love to hear an episode on the high Line. It's

941
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: got a great history. And that again is from Nicole ad.

942
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: Thanks Nicole. We love learning stuff we didn't know about.

943
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: Thanks for taking the time to write in and tell us.

944
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: And if you want to be like Nicole and just

945
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 2: be super cool with some great info, you can send

946
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 2: us an email to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

947
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

948
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

949
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.