Speaker 1: Hello everybody, well, welcome back to the show. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are
Speaker 1: in the world, it is so great to have you here.
Speaker 1: Back for another episode, as we, of course break down
Speaker 1: some of the psychology of our twenties. I'm going to
Speaker 1: come right out and say it. The biggest questions that
Speaker 1: we have in our twenties, and the questions that I
Speaker 1: get the most of, revolve around dating, Like how exactly
Speaker 1: are we meant to do this? How do I stop
Speaker 1: getting attached so quickly? How do I know if this
Speaker 1: person likes me, if I even like them, how do
Speaker 1: I find the one and not be completely exhausted by
Speaker 1: the process? Or the biggest question of all, is this
Speaker 1: something that I should even be prioritizing during my twenties?
Speaker 1: You know? Alternatively, could this be my decade to just
Speaker 1: be like free and uninhibited and not worry about this process.
Speaker 1: I think that I'm there with you, and so many
Speaker 1: of us are. It is occasionally, you know, is more
Speaker 1: trouble than it's worth. But I also deeply believe that
Speaker 1: dating shouldn't be a chore. It should be something that's
Speaker 1: fun and exciting and that you don't feel any pressure
Speaker 1: towards and that there is some pretty amazing ways to
Speaker 1: go about it that bring us to this point. The
Speaker 1: question that that leaves us with it, I know I'm
Speaker 1: full of a lot of questions, is how do we
Speaker 1: get there? How do we get to that point? And
Speaker 1: to give us the expert advice on how to date,
Speaker 1: when to date, and who to date in your twenties,
Speaker 1: we have the host of the outstanding podcast Datable, Julie
Speaker 1: and Yue. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having for having us.
Speaker 3: I love your voice. I'm soon by your voice right now.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Guys, you know a little bit of
Speaker 1: ASMR to kick se out just on morning. Can you
Speaker 1: introduce yourself and introduce Datable? Who are you guys? Who
Speaker 1: is what is the show? O?
Speaker 3: Yes, We're going to get right into it. We've had
Speaker 3: this podcast for almost a decade. We were in Julie
Speaker 3: and I were introduced by a mutual friend over a
Speaker 3: decade ago actually, and we were just sharing what do
Speaker 3: you call them war stories of dating, like what have
Speaker 3: you survived? And we thought it was such a great
Speaker 3: way to share what's going on in modern dating, share
Speaker 3: our own experiences and not feel like we're alone in it,
Speaker 3: so we decided to do a podcast out of it.
Speaker 3: But since then, we've really evolved the way we see
Speaker 3: modern dating. We think we are at a point where
Speaker 3: people are very fed up with dating. It's dating is
Speaker 3: harder than ever, but also it gives us the best
Speaker 3: opportunity to date right now. And we can go into
Speaker 3: that more later, and we go into it in our book.
Speaker 3: But the two of us come from kind of like this.
Speaker 3: We straddle the old and the new. So, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm like the first millennial, so I'm you know,
Speaker 3: I was born in eighty one, so I'm the first millennial.
Speaker 3: And I just remember growing up with all these rules
Speaker 3: about dating, very traditional ways of looking at gender roles,
Speaker 3: and now with modern dating, we're straddling kind of a
Speaker 3: progressive view of dating. So I was feeling lost because
Speaker 3: I only knew kind of the traditional ways of dating,
Speaker 3: like who pays for what, and who should text and
Speaker 3: who should initiate, And here I was in a world
Speaker 3: where all the rules are kind of thrown out the window,
Speaker 3: and I had to recreate a love life that worked
Speaker 3: for me, and I didn't know where to start. So
Speaker 3: that's where I was when I met Julie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and where I was. I don't think I ever
Speaker 2: set out to be a dating expert, so it still
Speaker 2: makes me laugh every day. But I was just as
Speaker 2: confused as probably many people that are listening are right
Speaker 2: this minute of just Where to Date. I got all
Speaker 2: the old books. We were kind of talking about that
Speaker 2: before we got on here. You know why men love
Speaker 2: bitches and you know the rules. And I thought I
Speaker 2: would approach dating like I did like schoolwork or job,
Speaker 2: and really study up and learn all the ways to
Speaker 2: navigate it. And I think that's why those books were
Speaker 2: so appealing, because they gave you a framework. The problem
Speaker 2: was I was not myself at all in the process,
Speaker 2: and I just remember friends being like, you're so social,
Speaker 2: you have so many friends, Like why does dating not stick?
Speaker 1: Ever?
Speaker 2: And I was just lost. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: when I met you a, I was actually coming out
Speaker 2: of like my first real serious relationship. And at that
Speaker 2: point I was like, you know, I found someone, I
Speaker 2: did it, I made it work, and then it didn't
Speaker 2: and it wasn't because the love wasn't there. I realized,
Speaker 2: just like not all the time things happen the way
Speaker 2: like we're told they are and like in the movies,
Speaker 2: and you know, this simplistic view of relationships, and I
Speaker 2: think it just made us both really curious on the
Speaker 2: topic and want to dive in even more.
Speaker 1: I love that this was like an accidental career feed both.
Speaker 2: Oh hundred, Rissa, You're gravitated to things right that you
Speaker 2: like struggle with.
Speaker 1: Oh, you know, the psychology of your twenties. I have
Speaker 1: no idea what I'm doing. That's the whole reason I'm
Speaker 1: doing this.
Speaker 2: But you know what you do, and then you learn
Speaker 2: all the gut along the way, right, And now.
Speaker 1: I just get to interview really smart experts and they
Speaker 1: just give me all the tips, like yourself. But I
Speaker 1: do think that you raised a really interesting point, which
Speaker 1: is that dating in this day and age is very different,
Speaker 1: and I think that a lot of us are bringing
Speaker 1: very outdated ideas of what that looks like. Outdated ideas
Speaker 1: of like, what are the games that we have to play,
Speaker 1: what are the rules to follow? Blah blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Why do you think that those rules are actually you know, no,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to say worsening our chances,
Speaker 1: but making it so much harder for us to actually
Speaker 1: enjoy the process.
Speaker 3: Well, if you think about it, dating is for you.
Speaker 3: You're not dating for other people. Yet we are restrained
Speaker 3: by these rules that other people have created for us,
Speaker 3: these social constructs that are not serving us for most
Speaker 3: part and not helping us in any way. So just
Speaker 3: by virtue of saying there are these rules already puts
Speaker 3: us in a box and doesn't free us from being
Speaker 3: our most authentic selves in dating.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is kind of a weird response
Speaker 2: as to dating experts, But one of the things we've
Speaker 2: realized in our decade is you actually don't need to
Speaker 2: be good at dating. Maybe it's actually hurting you because
Speaker 2: the way dating is operates today. We're not saying to
Speaker 2: not date. It's maybe to change how we date, but
Speaker 2: the way it operates today, it's all centered around disconnection
Speaker 2: when all we really crave is connection and the games.
Speaker 2: Like we hear, you know, people are like, well, I'm
Speaker 2: over the games. I don't do that, But then we
Speaker 2: hear them say like, oh, but you know, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: wait half an hour to text that person back because
Speaker 2: they didn't text me back right away. That's a game,
Speaker 2: and it's like as baked into dating culture that we
Speaker 2: don't always even realize when we're playing games.
Speaker 1: I really like that point. It's like, is the biggest
Speaker 1: mistake that we're making not being authentic? Like is it
Speaker 1: just seriously back to basics? Oh my god, there we go, done?
Speaker 1: Episode over And that was actually gonna be one of
Speaker 1: my questions. I was going to be that you guys
Speaker 1: are the dating experts. What's the biggest mistake that we're
Speaker 1: that we're making. What's the thing we're getting wrong about dating?
Speaker 1: Is it you know that we're not authentic? And is
Speaker 1: it that we're trying to be someone that we're not
Speaker 1: in the first week, month, day, year of dating someone.
Speaker 3: I mean, you did a recent episode about dating burnout,
Speaker 3: and we truly believe that you feel burnt out when
Speaker 3: you are not true to yourself because you're exerting more
Speaker 3: energy to be something you're not. That's how you get
Speaker 3: burned out. But if you're authentic to who you are
Speaker 3: and your needs, then you feel energized, like dating should
Speaker 3: feel energizing if you're doing it in a way that
Speaker 3: serves you, right, So I think you're onto something there, Gemma.
Speaker 3: Maybe the biggest issue is we're all trying to be
Speaker 3: something we're not, and that's what's causing us to be
Speaker 3: burnt out, to feel overwhelmed, to feel completely failed by
Speaker 3: modern dating, when we just need to take the control
Speaker 3: back and say, I am in the driver's seat of
Speaker 3: my love life and I will make every choice, every action,
Speaker 3: every behavior is in line with what I authentically stand for,
Speaker 3: not with society or other people want for me.
Speaker 1: I also feel like when with what you were saying,
Speaker 1: then when you put on this like false persona, right,
Speaker 1: you end up attracting people that you don't even lie
Speaker 1: and like you said, like it's so draining and you're
Speaker 1: so burnt out. It's kind of like a friendship, you know,
Speaker 1: when you just know that you want a person and
Speaker 1: you really actually don't get along that well, Like there
Speaker 1: really isn't much like chemistry completely platronically of course, and
Speaker 1: you don't remain friends with those people, like you don't
Speaker 1: message them, you know, text them, you don't really want
Speaker 1: to hang out with them. But with dating, it's like
Speaker 1: the stakes are so high that you give these people second, third,
Speaker 1: fourth chances and then you're both exhausted during the relationship
Speaker 1: and then afterwards you probably feel a sense of like,
Speaker 1: but I did all these things, I did everything right
Speaker 1: and it didn't work out. Like that's the whole Like,
Speaker 1: that's the whole cycle that I think really frustrates.
Speaker 2: People absolutely, And we call it in our book actually
Speaker 2: the validation trap. This is something that's getting in people's
Speaker 2: way because dating is no longer a way to just
Speaker 2: meet new people and have fun and see who the
Speaker 2: right matches. It's basically measuring our self worth and that
Speaker 2: comes from all the pressure with dating. And you know,
Speaker 2: you and I really fundamentally believe We've talked to like
Speaker 2: thousands of daters. We've seen people that you know, felt
Speaker 2: really hopeless. So I felt like I've never had a
Speaker 2: real relationship or I just don't know how to date.
Speaker 2: Are now in super healthy relationships. So we really believe that,
Speaker 2: like everyone is datable. That is a core message that
Speaker 2: we have. But it's modern dating norms that are getting
Speaker 2: in the way. So you asked earlier, like what are
Speaker 2: some of the biggest mistakes that it's coming to modern
Speaker 2: dating culture? Like we had one of our friends come
Speaker 2: on the podcast and she was saying, how like in
Speaker 2: every other part of life, she's like, go get her
Speaker 2: she you know, makes plans proactively. If someone asks to
Speaker 2: meet up in a business context, she's on it. A
Speaker 2: friend asked to meet up, she does it. But in
Speaker 2: dating she feels like because like everyone else is putting
Speaker 2: in less and less effort, it makes her do the same.
Speaker 2: So then she ghosts because they ghost and it's a cycle.
Speaker 2: She drops to what she called the lowest common denominator
Speaker 2: and art and her thing was, well, if someone's going
Speaker 2: to give me ten percent, I'll give them nine percent.
Speaker 2: And our take was, why not give them zero percent?
Speaker 2: Like they're showing you what they're giving you know what
Speaker 2: you want to give? Like, how do you rise above
Speaker 2: dating culture? Not just do the thing because that's how
Speaker 2: dating works.
Speaker 1: And this validation validation cycle of validation trap trap even better, Yeah, neither.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be in either of them. Let's
Speaker 1: just avoid with the validation trap. Like, how does it
Speaker 1: keep us in those same unsustaining relationships or situationships or
Speaker 1: dating the wrong people?
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you are constantly tying your self worth to
Speaker 3: other people's behaviors and your perceived perception of how they
Speaker 3: see you. That even me just saying that sentence is
Speaker 3: so exhausting right, because you're constantly like who you are,
Speaker 3: what your worth is a product of how someone else
Speaker 3: treats you. That's not how life should be. You know
Speaker 3: your worth and you know what you're putting out there.
Speaker 3: You know what you bring to the table. Why have
Speaker 3: other people dictate that? So the danger with a validation
Speaker 3: trap is you never fully stand strong and who you are.
Speaker 3: You're not rooted. Your branches are just tied to all
Speaker 3: these other people who are moving in every which direction. Like,
Speaker 3: imagine how weak that tree is if they have no
Speaker 3: roots but branches tied to all the other trees. You
Speaker 3: would end up just being like we call this a
Speaker 3: dating chameleon, where you just, you know, pretend your other
Speaker 3: people to try to fit into other people's lives.
Speaker 2: I think one of the biggest challenges I had personally
Speaker 2: was situationships. It was like, even before the tree existed,
Speaker 2: I was the queen of situationships, always in them all
Speaker 2: through my twenties and even to my early thirties, and
Speaker 2: finally I was able to crack that luckily. But I
Speaker 2: think the biggest piece was with validation is that one
Speaker 2: I think I just didn't know what love actually should
Speaker 2: look like and what a healthy relationship was, but also
Speaker 2: it was this cycle of wanting the approval of someone
Speaker 2: and feeling like I could win them over, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'd already invested so much energy the sun cost fallacy.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to keep going.
Speaker 2: And it was so tied to my ego that like
Speaker 2: I wanted to win, but I was like winning by
Speaker 2: settling for someone that didn't even really want to be
Speaker 2: with me, Like that's not winning at all. And I
Speaker 2: think rejection also ties to that. When we're so tied
Speaker 2: to validation, we want to avoid rejection at all costs.
Speaker 2: And then like the most recent time I was dating,
Speaker 2: before I met my partner, now three years plus, I
Speaker 2: just lost all of that. Like I got to the
Speaker 2: point where I was just like I'm going to show
Speaker 2: up as myself. If someone doesn't want to be with me,
Speaker 2: then like I'm gonna move on, and they're clearing my
Speaker 2: path to find the right person. But it took a
Speaker 2: lot of reframing to get to that point and not
Speaker 2: fall for validation trap anymore.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure like even with all the knowledge you had,
Speaker 1: it's still very instinctive. Oh yeah, it's just you know,
Speaker 1: it's basic human psychology, like you want what you can't have,
Speaker 1: like you end up being led by construction. Yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: it's fomo. Everyone else has these relationships and you're like,
Speaker 1: if I can just make this work, like I can
Speaker 1: take that off my list as well. It's so interesting
Speaker 1: because literally this morning, I've been with my partner for
Speaker 1: like two years now. We have the best relationship, and
Speaker 1: this morning my ex situationship messaged me out of the
Speaker 1: bloot right before I.
Speaker 2: Come back back, and I was like, uh huh hi, and.
Speaker 1: He sent me like this meme about how you know,
Speaker 1: as we're recording this, like the US election is going on,
Speaker 1: and he sent me this meme about like how Kamala
Speaker 1: Harris is like banning all situationships and like any like
Speaker 1: anyone who's in a like who creates a situation ship
Speaker 1: like should go straight to jail. And it was so
Speaker 1: I was like, where the fuck is this coming from? Mate,
Speaker 1: Like I haven't spoken to you in like three years,
Speaker 1: and still thinking about me like I'm with this amazing person.
Speaker 1: Now you know that I'm with this person. But he
Speaker 1: messaged me, and I got this feeling in my stomach.
Speaker 1: It like did a flip, and I was just like
Speaker 1: oh my god, and I just felt all of these
Speaker 1: emotions all over again. And I remember, like, like, you know,
Speaker 1: three months ago, I was like why was I, you know,
Speaker 1: for a while, and like why was I ever in
Speaker 1: that situation? And I was like, because he knew how
Speaker 1: to make me really anxious and he knew how to
Speaker 1: Like I think, I say this a lot. It comes
Speaker 1: down to like being a bit of an overachiever and
Speaker 1: a bit of a actionist. Like everything else in my life,
Speaker 1: much like your friend, right, I had to work hard
Speaker 1: for and there was this whole sense that like what's easy,
Speaker 1: Like if it was easy, everyone could have it. So
Speaker 1: the relationship that was most hard to obtain, the person's
Speaker 1: attention that was most hard to obtain, was the one
Speaker 1: that I should focus on. And I think that made
Speaker 1: me incredibly anxious and he really knew how to leverage that.
Speaker 1: And it was just this wild feeling of being like wow,
Speaker 1: I'm like straight back in this in this time for
Speaker 1: just that second, I feel exactly how that felt, and
Speaker 1: it gave me like a sense of forgiveness of like yeah, no,
Speaker 1: no wonder, no wonder, Like I was getting so wrapped
Speaker 1: up in this when we were in those situations you
Speaker 1: like everything is just playing on this like instinctual anxious drive,
Speaker 1: this sense of like I need to find stability here,
Speaker 1: and the only way I can find stability is to
Speaker 1: like reach the conclusion of this relationship and make it
Speaker 1: into something more. I just think that, Like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's been your experience, but that was the
Speaker 1: real reason I found myself in situationships for a very
Speaker 1: long time as well.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I can relate to everything you just said.
Speaker 2: In our book, we actually have a quiz of like
Speaker 2: what type of dater you are? I'm curious if you
Speaker 2: took it, but I was an achiever dreamer, and that
Speaker 2: combination was kind of a baby guessing that is what
Speaker 2: you are.
Speaker 1: Yea, yeah, it actually was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Okay, that's the exact notion that I had too,
Speaker 4: of like, you know, I imagine this fantasy with this
Speaker 4: person and like for you know, everyone can take the
Speaker 4: quiz even if you don't have the book, and go
Speaker 4: to our website and take the quiz.
Speaker 2: But like it's so fascinating because it's all about like
Speaker 2: what are your strengths that you bring to dating, but
Speaker 2: then also what holds you back? And I think in
Speaker 2: that situation, it was like this getting ahead of yourself,
Speaker 2: making something, romanticizing it. This is also natural. That's why,
Speaker 2: like with all of this that we talk about, it's
Speaker 2: like these are just traps that everyone's falling for because
Speaker 2: it's instinctual to how dating and modern dating work, and
Speaker 2: this deed to like win comes from this achiever's mindset
Speaker 2: of like I still want to like get this person.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. And like you said, what is bedding?
Speaker 1: I'm the wedding is being with someone who doesn't even
Speaker 1: want to be with me. Like that doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: a great price. I'm sorry, Like that seems pretty crap.
Speaker 1: How do you think how do you think we can
Speaker 1: stop ourselves from really getting carried away in the early days,
Speaker 1: Because sometimes I find sometimes, you know, I've now been
Speaker 1: with my partner for a while, so not recently, but
Speaker 1: when I was dating, and what a lot of people
Speaker 1: do ask me, is I meet this person and suddenly
Speaker 1: I'm fantasizing about the wedding that we're going to have
Speaker 1: in three years we've been on one day. Is that
Speaker 1: like just infatuation or is that a sign of like something?
Speaker 1: How do you stop that from getting in the way
Speaker 1: of actually getting to know each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just such a great question because so many
Speaker 3: of us fall into that. And I would argue that
Speaker 3: it's very healthy to fantasize about a future with someone.
Speaker 3: If you don't do that, then maybe you don't have
Speaker 3: a heart right, Like it's good to feel like the
Speaker 3: warm and fuzzies about someone and be like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: maybe we could have a family together. But this sounds
Speaker 3: like typical dreamer where you get so ahead of yourself
Speaker 3: that you get wrapped and wrapped up in the story
Speaker 3: and then you forget about the reality of what's happening.
Speaker 3: So you know, even in the book, we always tell
Speaker 3: everybody to just like fact check, write down all the
Speaker 3: things that are real, all the things you are feeling,
Speaker 3: and then just know that you can't observe all of
Speaker 3: this and all of this can exist at once. Don't
Speaker 3: feel bad for feeling this way, but also it's good
Speaker 3: to to do a reality check every once in a while. Okay,
Speaker 3: it's only been three days. Okay, I don't even know
Speaker 3: their middle name, Like okay, like we have we haven't
Speaker 3: had a conversation for longer than two hours, Like it's
Speaker 3: good to just bring you back to reality. But it's
Speaker 3: okay if you fantasize every once in a while, like
Speaker 3: it's natural to do that.
Speaker 2: And in today's dating culture too, we call it the
Speaker 2: expectation of love on demand. Another trap that gets in
Speaker 2: our yay because in today's world, everything happens at lightning speed, right,
Speaker 2: Like you can get an uber and you can order
Speaker 2: a meal and all the things like at the touch
Speaker 2: of your fingertips, and of course you expect that in
Speaker 2: dating too. So with this, like as soon as we
Speaker 2: meet someone that we like, we often get ahead of
Speaker 2: ourselves and we start imagining this future. And also couple
Speaker 2: in that people are really frustrated by dating and just
Speaker 2: want to get out. So it's all this like perfect
Speaker 2: storm of you know, maybe not giving other people that
Speaker 2: could be potentially better partners for the long haul enough time,
Speaker 2: and then focusing on people that we don't really know.
Speaker 2: Like Ua said, I really had to get realistic because
Speaker 2: this was a huge problem of mine. I remember even
Speaker 2: like when I met my partner now though, like I
Speaker 2: remember my best friend being like, so, do you think
Speaker 2: you'll go out with him?
Speaker 4: Again?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, you know, if I do that, would
Speaker 2: be awesome, And if I don't, that's also okay, because
Speaker 2: I have no idea what's going on in his life
Speaker 2: after going out with him one time, and I think
Speaker 2: it really took conscious unlearning of those patterns.
Speaker 1: I guess the other thing that really factors into this
Speaker 1: and listening to you too, you both talk about it,
Speaker 1: is this idea that like you should have this passionate
Speaker 1: or consuming spot your everybody's love stories, and there's this
Speaker 1: huge idea of like you should know within the first
Speaker 1: like five minutes, like real love won't hide and if
Speaker 1: you have to like take time and be patient with it,
Speaker 1: like obviously it's not the one for you. It is.
Speaker 1: Also it comes down to like if you wanted to,
Speaker 1: if she wanted to, they would yeah, which I am like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Like I get I do get it. I think it's
Speaker 1: like a nice philosophy, but sometimes, like you said, there's
Speaker 1: other things happening in their life. Maybe they do really
Speaker 1: want to but they can't. But also it gives us
Speaker 1: expectation of like grand gestures and huge commitment very very quickly.
Speaker 1: Sometimes like the best love comes from slowing down and
Speaker 1: comes from taking your time. How do we do that
Speaker 1: that's like the million dollar question, how do you like
Speaker 1: slow down, actually enjoy dating, actually enjoy the process and
Speaker 1: getting to know someone in this like love on demand environment,
Speaker 1: in this like very urgent society that we live in.
Speaker 3: Oh, such a beautiful observation. I will tell you I
Speaker 3: spent my twenties being addicted to love and my thirties
Speaker 3: chasing that high. And now being in my four I
Speaker 3: realized that was all a ruths like that was not
Speaker 3: that That's not what relationships are about. So I think
Speaker 3: it's it's good to know that, you know, Oh, I
Speaker 3: really chase the butterflies, or I'm chasing that grand passionate feeling,
Speaker 3: because as long as you are observing that, you know
Speaker 3: that's happening to you. But the second step to that
Speaker 3: is to say, am I feeling this passion for this
Speaker 3: person because they haven't called me back in two days
Speaker 3: and I've now written this novel about them and I'm
Speaker 3: now addicted to the story of this person Or are
Speaker 3: they actually showing signs of being a good partner That's
Speaker 3: why I'm feeling love and passion for them. And in
Speaker 3: my twenties, I will tell you I was chasing after
Speaker 3: people who were the first How I described in the
Speaker 3: first way is they were not available, but I was
Speaker 3: so connected to the story of who they were that
Speaker 3: I began chasing, not them, with these fantasy characters. So
Speaker 3: now I can look back on that and say, Okay,
Speaker 3: I'm glad I went through that experience, but this is
Speaker 3: I think this is the biggest shift for me in
Speaker 3: how I turn that around. My friend Amy told me
Speaker 3: this because I asked her, like, why do you want
Speaker 3: to get married, why do you want to have kids,
Speaker 3: why do you want any of this stuff in life?
Speaker 3: And she said, it's not the achievements or the milestones,
Speaker 3: it's I want to learn how I can expand my
Speaker 3: heart to the fullest. And I thought that was such
Speaker 3: a beautiful way of putting relationships and dating is it's
Speaker 3: not about the end result or getting someone or chasing
Speaker 3: this milestone. It's what can you do to love the
Speaker 3: fullest at each opportunity, and even if that person doesn't
Speaker 3: stay forever, you are using that opportunity to expand your heart.
Speaker 3: And I really hope that everybody can take that expansion
Speaker 3: in mind when they're dating, because it's it makes us
Speaker 3: so much more of a beautiful enjoyable and like self
Speaker 3: focus experience.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's also this sense of like what are you
Speaker 1: rushing towards? You know, what's the rush? And I know
Speaker 1: people are always like, well, I just want to do
Speaker 1: all these things with them, and I'm like, if you're
Speaker 1: going to be with them forever, they will happen, and
Speaker 1: you don't want to squeeze a whole relationship into like
Speaker 1: four years and then be like, wait, we actually never
Speaker 1: really like got to know each other. I always say,
Speaker 1: it's like you've got to enjoy enjoy the waiting rooms, right.
Speaker 1: There are periods in your life when you're in a
Speaker 1: waiting room and it's kind of like ooh, like you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not like coming to the destination. I'm
Speaker 1: not at my destination. I'm just kind of in the middle.
Speaker 1: And I do think that relationships have those rooms as well,
Speaker 1: where it's like, Okay, this is the time when we
Speaker 1: can like sit and slow down and have a chat
Speaker 1: and like pick up a magazine and like just really
Speaker 1: you fill out some forms, really get to know each other.
Speaker 1: Like I really value that in my own relationship is
Speaker 1: you know, early days, like it's only been two years
Speaker 1: as it is it really does mean that there is
Speaker 1: a trust built there and I and I know that
Speaker 1: the bedrock of my relationship is not excitement. There is
Speaker 1: excitement in there, but the bedrock is like true liking
Speaker 1: and knowledge, and like you said, like my heart has
Speaker 1: room to expand. It's like when you blow up a
Speaker 1: balloon slily rather than just like giving one big push
Speaker 1: and like it explodes everywhere.
Speaker 2: So I like that advice a lot. I think this
Speaker 2: is easier sound than dumb. But we need to like
Speaker 2: remember the long game here, like I don't. We've had
Speaker 2: these conversations with people that you know, got married super
Speaker 2: early and are now divorced, and they were saying how
Speaker 2: they felt like they lacked the communication skills, the relational skills,
Speaker 2: they just didn't do it because you know, they're just
Speaker 2: every just fell into place and it worked out. And
Speaker 2: of course it was like, I'm not saying that every
Speaker 2: couple that gets married early this is going to happen
Speaker 2: to And I think if you are in the situation
Speaker 2: where you're like I've been dating for a while, it's
Speaker 2: hard remember that it's all going to something like you're
Speaker 2: learning at every step of the way here. And I
Speaker 2: really think that like, dating is the perfect opportunity to
Speaker 2: test out and train yourself and practice saying what you need.
Speaker 2: And we're always so afraid to in dating because we're like,
Speaker 2: we don't know this person well enough. I don't want
Speaker 2: to scare them away. But if we turn it like
Speaker 2: why not scare away the wrong people? Like that's filtering
Speaker 2: people out for you. And then also like I mean,
Speaker 2: I know, for me, a huge pivotal point was when
Speaker 2: I was like, Okay, I'm going to date with my
Speaker 2: own needs at the forefront. So that involved getting clear
Speaker 2: about what those deeds even were what I wanted, because
Speaker 2: in the past, I was like the hitchhiker along for
Speaker 2: everyone else's ride. That's why I was in all the situationships.
Speaker 2: But then when you are able to turn it on yourself,
Speaker 2: then you're in control and you're making those decisions, and
Speaker 2: you can also look at it like this person isn't
Speaker 2: the right one for me, not just I need to
Speaker 2: be saved and get done with this.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, words I had wished I heard a
Speaker 1: long time ago, three or four years ago. Those would
Speaker 1: have been incredibly helpful, but I had to learn it
Speaker 1: the hardway. We're going to take a short break, but
Speaker 1: when we return, I'm going to talk more about how
Speaker 1: to date seriously and how to know if someone is
Speaker 1: the right one. I've got a more serious question. I
Speaker 1: feel like the first half of this episode we talked
Speaker 1: about getting to know someone, doing some of the work
Speaker 1: in yourself around what kind of data you are, how
Speaker 1: you canel about going slow. Say you are with someone,
Speaker 1: it's getting serious, you are having fun, you're vibing, neither
Speaker 1: of you are seeing other people. It's exclusive. If you
Speaker 1: have doubts, what if you still have questions lingering in
Speaker 1: the back of your mind, like three four, five months in,
Speaker 1: is that something that you should call it quits over
Speaker 1: or is it worth kind of giving them the grace
Speaker 1: and gift of time to see if it works.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this goes back to our expectation of love
Speaker 3: on demand too. People feel like they need to know
Speaker 3: right away and also have no doubts in early dating,
Speaker 3: and it's so you're gonna hopeway's gonna have doubts. That's
Speaker 3: the reality of relationships too. Relationships evolve and you're gonna
Speaker 3: have moments where you're like, am I with the right person?
Speaker 3: So in our book, we actually make it very clear.
Speaker 4: We have a.
Speaker 3: Perfect partner equation, so you can just follow that formula
Speaker 3: and really it's a plug and chug, but also it
Speaker 3: grounds you into what matters in choosing a partner, and
Speaker 3: like we really bully down to like there are only
Speaker 3: seven things that matter, and like one of them is consistency,
Speaker 3: like as this person consistently showing up for you. But
Speaker 3: here's the thing though, like with we can do all
Speaker 3: the overthinking thinking because their thinker is one of the
Speaker 3: dating archetypes as well. This person's going to be like
Speaker 3: every moment, is this the right person? This is the
Speaker 3: right person? At some point you just got to say
Speaker 3: this is the right person until they're not the right person.
Speaker 3: We see this with so many relationships that span years
Speaker 3: and years. They're right until they're not, and that's okay.
Speaker 3: Like they do not need to be the right person forever.
Speaker 3: There they are right for you based on your core needs,
Speaker 3: your values, et cetera. And that's all you really need
Speaker 3: to hold on to. You don't have to think of
Speaker 3: like one hundred years down the line.
Speaker 2: I think it's understanding why you're having the hesitation too,
Speaker 2: Like Ua was saying, is it something that's core to
Speaker 2: your values or the way you feel or your futures
Speaker 2: aren't a lunch. I just gave away some of the
Speaker 2: perfect partner equation. And or is it that like stuff
Speaker 2: from your past is coming up that's causing you to
Speaker 2: feel that anxiety, Because I think there's a big different
Speaker 2: difference if you're with the wrong person because you're fundamentally
Speaker 2: not aligned versus the normal anxieties that happen in relationships.
Speaker 2: And like I know, for me, I thought like once
Speaker 2: I met that person, it'd be all easy because the
Speaker 2: anxiety and the difficult part was in the dating. Because
Speaker 2: I met someone and I'm like, oh, this is like
Speaker 2: the type of person I was looking for. You know,
Speaker 2: everything on the outside is healthy, But what I've learned
Speaker 2: is like even in the healthiest relationships, we get triggered.
Speaker 2: Stuff comes up from our past, and there's a big
Speaker 2: differentiator if this person is wrong for you or it's
Speaker 2: coming from the back.
Speaker 1: I love the way that you put that, because I
Speaker 1: do think that there were so many amazing people out
Speaker 1: there for us. We will never choose just one if
Speaker 1: we constantly think that the grass is greener. And of course,
Speaker 1: there is an important distinction between like you said, you know,
Speaker 1: you have this beautiful relationship equation. There is an important
Speaker 1: distinction between, you know, not feeling certain because of big
Speaker 1: questions and not feeling certain because you're like, ooh, could
Speaker 1: I have something more exciting? You know, could I have
Speaker 1: the butterflies again? I honestly see this a lot with
Speaker 1: people in their twenties, where they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: my relationship just feels so stable, almost so used to
Speaker 1: chasing the high of early love that you know. I
Speaker 1: had a friend who was in this gorgeous, beautiful relationship.
Speaker 1: She left it for for similar reasons, and they are
Speaker 1: now back together because she was like, I just realized
Speaker 1: that actually this person was amazing. They were everything that
Speaker 1: I wanted. I was just looking for something that actually
Speaker 1: a past version of me wanted more, which was something
Speaker 1: exhilarating and intoxicating and addictive. Is that the relationship that's
Speaker 1: gonna take me till my thirties, to my forties to
Speaker 1: my fifties. Is that the relationship I want to raise
Speaker 1: children within? Probably not, probably not, But there are sometimes
Speaker 1: those situations. And you guys have this amazing episode which
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna plug here because it's so good about
Speaker 1: whether you should leave a good relation, whether you should
Speaker 1: leave a good not great relationship. And if that is
Speaker 1: the case, this relationship is like it's fine, it's okay,
Speaker 1: it's no amazing, and you do decide to leave, how
Speaker 1: do you get over the fear of never finding someone better?
Speaker 1: If this is in your stars, if this is in
Speaker 1: your path, this relationship isn't right, how do you stop
Speaker 1: yourself from staying for longer than you should?
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was forty two years old when I
Speaker 3: found out my partner of five years had been cheating
Speaker 3: on me. We were making plans to start a family.
Speaker 3: I was we were in the middle of trying to
Speaker 3: conceive when I found all the text messages that nobody
Speaker 3: should ever read from their partner. So here's the thing.
Speaker 3: After this breakup, and it was hard, it was devastating.
Speaker 3: I realized, if I can get through this on my own,
Speaker 3: then I am perfectly great. Like this is If this
Speaker 3: is the default of my life is to be strong
Speaker 3: and independent and be like this warrior on my own,
Speaker 3: then anybody who comes in my life is just additive.
Speaker 3: So having that kind of reset going back into dating,
Speaker 3: it was so refreshing because I didn't feel like I
Speaker 3: needed to hold on to people. I knew that whoever
Speaker 3: was meant for me will be in my life, and
Speaker 3: whoever was not meant for me will naturally filter themselves out.
Speaker 3: I did not need to force people to be in
Speaker 3: my life. I did not need to force people to
Speaker 3: be in relationship with me, and that allowed me to
Speaker 3: attract the right people because these were people like, oh,
Speaker 3: her life is great. I want to add to it.
Speaker 3: I want to be a better part of this life,
Speaker 3: like rate come along. But I don't need a relationship.
Speaker 3: I don't need a partner. When we see when we
Speaker 3: have the scarcity mindset, we feel like we need someone
Speaker 3: to save us, like a relationship is going to bring
Speaker 3: us to this island where everybody's safe and fed and roofed,
Speaker 3: And that's like, that's not how it works, right, Like
Speaker 3: it just relationships won't save you if you can't save yourself.
Speaker 2: I think, though it's natural what you were saying, like,
Speaker 2: especially like we tie in like a present bias, right
Speaker 2: we look at what's in front of us currently as
Speaker 2: like having more weight than what could be in the future,
Speaker 2: and it's really hard to see that something better could
Speaker 2: be around the quarter, Like looking at uas situation. I
Speaker 2: feel like you're in a much better or a relationship
Speaker 2: now at place now, but in the thick of that breakup,
Speaker 2: you could not see that. You could not know that.
Speaker 2: So it's a really hard situation that makes us often
Speaker 2: overstay things that aren't working. I think the hardest one too,
Speaker 2: is like when it's a good relationship, like nothing's wrong,
Speaker 2: but you're just like, is there something more fulfilling for me?
Speaker 2: And of course we recommend you know, having all the conversations,
Speaker 2: doing the work, going to couple's therapy, not just throwing
Speaker 2: in the towel at one feeling of that. But if
Speaker 2: you keep feeling that and you're like, fundamentally I know
Speaker 2: this person isn't right for me, you also have to
Speaker 2: honor that too, and honor that and trust that something
Speaker 2: will be out there that is better serve for you,
Speaker 2: because if you're fundamentally feeling that way, then like you
Speaker 2: do deserve something more, and so does the person you're with.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, yeah, so does the person you're
Speaker 1: a Wait, I imagine if you were with a pot
Speaker 1: and who was looking you right, I just don't like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to leave them because you know they're
Speaker 1: good not great? Right? That would that would break my
Speaker 1: heart if my boyfriend or my partner was like, yeah
Speaker 1: she's she's okay, but I'm too scared to leave her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's going to be the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: Like absolutely not saw it to that person took and to.
Speaker 1: Yourself, like, yes, you owe it to yourself as well,
Speaker 1: because that's still your reality. And I love what you
Speaker 1: said of like, Okay, you might not find a better relationship,
Speaker 1: but you'll find yourself. And isn't that just as valuable
Speaker 1: because there are people who go through their entire lives
Speaker 1: who do not find that. And I say that with
Speaker 1: the most serious level of gravity having seen it and
Speaker 1: in family members of mine actually who I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: you married like the first person you met and now
Speaker 1: you're like seventy eighty, and like, I can just see that,
Speaker 1: only now you're figuring yourself out, as you know, as
Speaker 1: a someone who's older. And it's beautiful that they're getting
Speaker 1: that opportunity, but it is something that you need to
Speaker 1: take seriously. You can't like there's never going to be
Speaker 1: a good time to end a relationship ever, and there's
Speaker 1: never gonna be like the final, you know, especially if
Speaker 1: you're with someone who's like really great and like kind
Speaker 1: and happy, like if you're waiting for them to like
Speaker 1: screw up as an excuse to like break up with them,
Speaker 1: I honestly think that's a little bit manipulative as well,
Speaker 1: because you're going to push them into those situations where
Speaker 1: they're gonna have to take, like take the reins like
Speaker 1: I love the I think the overarching theme of everything
Speaker 1: you guys say is like being the driver's seat of
Speaker 1: your love life, and that also means having Like, if
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in the driver's seat, you've also got
Speaker 1: to make some hard calls that might include, you know,
Speaker 1: leaving someone who is good not great.
Speaker 3: But we are saying actually inspired. Something that we talk
Speaker 3: Julie and I talk about all the time is sometimes
Speaker 3: we evaluate our relationships on the wrong things, like, oh,
Speaker 3: this person's so nice and faithful and kind, like I
Speaker 3: should stay with them because they are a good person. Well,
Speaker 3: you like, just being with someone because they're a good
Speaker 3: person doesn't actually do anything for anybody. You want to
Speaker 3: be with a partner who is committed to growing with you,
Speaker 3: who's committed to expanding the relationship with you. The minute
Speaker 3: your partner shuts down or you shut down from that growth,
Speaker 3: that relationship is over because you can no longer evolve
Speaker 3: that relationship no matter how kind or nice or great
Speaker 3: this person is. So instead of like us being like, oh,
Speaker 3: I can't leave a person who's so nice and great,
Speaker 3: I would have just challenged people to say, have you
Speaker 3: set up your partner for success in terms of how
Speaker 3: we've had discussions about growing together and where can we
Speaker 3: expand more into where can we be better at in
Speaker 3: our relationship and see if partners receptive to that. Just
Speaker 3: like hanging your hat on someone being a good person
Speaker 3: or nice, it's just not enough, simply not enough for
Speaker 3: a relationship.
Speaker 2: So this is an interesting tidbit. But like when we
Speaker 2: did that episode, there was a specific couple that had
Speaker 2: come to us that was in mind, and they actually
Speaker 2: stayed together and years later they are super happy and
Speaker 2: the doubts are gone, which is fascinating because your instinct
Speaker 2: is to be like leave, go find someone else. But
Speaker 2: I think that actually goes back to like some of
Speaker 2: the challenges with modern dating, that's always the instinct, and
Speaker 2: that's why we're kind of in or headed towards what
Speaker 2: we're calling the love crisis where dating is so hard
Speaker 2: that people don't want to do it anymore, or the
Speaker 2: mental health aspect is getting so out of control that
Speaker 2: you wonder like is it even worth it? And if
Speaker 2: we're always onto the decks, we can never develop the relationship.
Speaker 2: So I like that example because it's like what you
Speaker 2: were saying, you a of like when you look at
Speaker 2: what's missing, how are you looking at it? And can
Speaker 2: you have that like come to conversation of like how
Speaker 2: do we move that barrier? And then if you've done
Speaker 2: all the work and you're still not there, at least
Speaker 2: you know you did it instead of just moving on.
Speaker 1: I love that, and I like, I really like this
Speaker 1: realistic approach of like look at the right things and
Speaker 1: the order I've gotten that saying of like relationships or work.
Speaker 1: I used to be so scared of that saying. We
Speaker 1: used to be like no, no, no, no, it should
Speaker 1: be easy. Yes, but like you go to the gym
Speaker 1: when you want to, like you look after your body,
Speaker 1: that's hard work, but you still enjoy it and everything
Speaker 1: is worked exactly. Anything that's good is work and is
Speaker 1: a choice. I actually think that like the easiest things
Speaker 1: in life aren't always worth having. You know, it's easy
Speaker 1: to like be passive in your life. It's easy to
Speaker 1: sit on the couch and it's easy to like eat
Speaker 1: the food that's like on your way home, and it's
Speaker 1: easy to do X y Z. Is that going to
Speaker 1: put you in the best place? Probably not. Same goes
Speaker 1: for a relationship at times, especially like I don't know,
Speaker 1: especially when there is just so much about them that
Speaker 1: you do really like and that is important. I know
Speaker 1: we're giving like conflicting advice here, guys, but I think
Speaker 1: the basis of what we're saying is if you have
Speaker 1: an instinct that maybe this relationship isn't right for you,
Speaker 1: investigate it further. Is it for a reason that is
Speaker 1: something that you can work on, or is it something
Speaker 1: fundamental about your character and your plans and your visions.
Speaker 1: The first step is definitely to really test that out
Speaker 1: with your partner and really do the work and the interrogation.
Speaker 1: If they are someone who is genuinely a great person
Speaker 1: for you, and then it's kind of up to you. Like,
Speaker 1: maybe the reason our advice is like this way and
Speaker 1: that way is because there is no one answer. But
Speaker 1: I love the analogy that that couple, it's hot warming.
Speaker 2: I think the question too, is like what's hard, because like,
Speaker 2: if you're like constantly trying to get attention from a
Speaker 2: situationship that is telling you outright that they don't want
Speaker 2: to commit to you, that's not the right relationship for you.
Speaker 2: But if it's hard because it's actually making you confront
Speaker 2: parts of yourself and you know, feelings that are coming
Speaker 2: up or emotions that you've stuffed away, that's like the
Speaker 2: right type of heart that's challenging you to be a
Speaker 2: better person. So again, I think it is conflicting, but
Speaker 2: we have to come back to like what the root
Speaker 2: is of like what is actually the hard mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I love that. Now we have to wrap up because
Speaker 1: I've just gone completely.
Speaker 2: I've got a complete It's.
Speaker 1: Like I was going to ask you every single dating
Speaker 1: question I've ever had. I think to finish the episode,
Speaker 1: and I ask a lot of my guests this, what
Speaker 1: would each of you pick one thing the best piece
Speaker 1: of advice that you would give you a twenty something
Speaker 1: your old self around dating. What do you wish that
Speaker 1: you had known back then that the listeners can know now?
Speaker 2: I think for me, it's trust in your timing, especially
Speaker 2: in your twenties, there's so much pressure to you know,
Speaker 2: meet these artificial milestones, and it's so much better to
Speaker 2: take your time and be with the right person. Again,
Speaker 2: it goes back to the long game, and you know,
Speaker 2: getting into this mindset to of I'm the one in control,
Speaker 2: I'm figuring this out. It's not the apps, it's not
Speaker 2: my city, it's not all other people, like I'm the
Speaker 2: one leading is so empowering too. So if you can
Speaker 2: combine those two mindsets of like, you know, things will
Speaker 2: work out for me, Especially if I make this a
Speaker 2: priority with I'm in the driver's seat, then I think
Speaker 2: that really sets you up for a lot more success.
Speaker 3: I think been asking the question you just asked, it's
Speaker 3: a really good way to think about dating. The question is,
Speaker 3: if you're, let's say, in your thirties or forties, what
Speaker 3: did you learn in your twenties about dating? Ask yourself
Speaker 3: that question in your twenties, you know, ask yourself, like,
Speaker 3: in this situation I'm in right now, ten years down
Speaker 3: the line, what would I tell that person that I
Speaker 3: learned from it. I think in the twenties, you don't
Speaker 3: need to be like I have to figure it all out,
Speaker 3: and I have to get it all right because you'll
Speaker 3: never get it all right or figure it all out.
Speaker 3: But it's such a great place with so much freedom
Speaker 3: to play and to experiment and discover. Just know that
Speaker 3: you are intentional about the discovery process. You're not repeating
Speaker 3: the same patterns of behavior that every moment is teaching
Speaker 3: you something so that when you do reach thirty, you
Speaker 3: go yep. In my twenties, I learned all of this,
Speaker 3: Like I have a whole list of things I learned.
Speaker 1: And also, like your dating life and life doesn't end
Speaker 1: at thirty, there is such a pressure to hy make
Speaker 1: sure that you've like picked up a partner along the way.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, absolutely not good. No, you have so
Speaker 1: much time. You have so much time. So I want
Speaker 1: to thank you both for coming on to the show.
Speaker 1: I also really want to plug your book How to
Speaker 1: Be Datable by the time it comes out on January
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, correct.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's incredible.
Speaker 1: It's a really good book and it's practical and it's helpful,
Speaker 1: and it's modern and there's just so many nuggets of
Speaker 1: wisdom in it. So I'll leave a link to pre
Speaker 1: order the book in the description of this episode. Where
Speaker 1: can the listeners find your podcast? Where can they find you? Both?
Speaker 2: So many pleasers, We're all over the internet, but really,
Speaker 2: wherever podcasts are? Apple Podcasts, Spotify and yeah, datablepodcast dot
Speaker 2: com or how toobe datable dot com.
Speaker 1: Brilliant Again, thank you so much for coming on and
Speaker 1: for your beautiful advice for us twenty somethings. I hope
Speaker 1: that you, guys the listeners enjoyed this episode. Everything else
Speaker 1: that you need will be in the link your own
Speaker 1: the description of this episode. Make sure that you leave
Speaker 1: a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you
Speaker 1: are listening. Give us a follow so you know when
Speaker 1: new episodes are coming up, especially with twelve months of
Speaker 1: guests happening. At the moment, we have some more amazing
Speaker 1: guests on their way. And until next time, stay safe,
Speaker 1: be kind, to be gentle to yourself. We will talk soon.