1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:01,160 Speaker 1: Taking a walk. 2 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 2: The peace movement in general. 3 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 3: Challenging is the cultural stereotypes, like the whole idea of 4 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 3: the gentle male hippie. Just the first time anybody had 5 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 3: ever gone out of their way to suggest that you 6 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 3: guys could didn't have to be punching each other up. 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 4: Walk with me for a moment. Imagine the San Francisco 8 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 4: fog rolling in, mingling with the scent of fresh paint 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 4: and Petruly, the sidewalks pulse with poetry, music, rebellion, and 10 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 4: dreams just crazy enough to change the world. I'm buzznight, 11 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 4: and on today's episode had taken a walk. We're not 12 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 4: just retracing the roots of a counter culture. We're diving 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 4: into the wild, unwritten corners of history with one of 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 4: its most insightful storytellers. I first know him from his 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 4: work as publicists with this little band called The Grateful Dead. 16 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 4: Dennis McNally joins us to illuminate the secret pathways behind 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 4: and his new book, The Last Great Dream, a sweeping 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 4: chronicle of how bohemians, beats and hippies cracked open American 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 4: culture and invited us all to step inside. So lace 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 4: up your shoes and get ready. This isn't just a 21 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 4: walk down memory lane. It's a journey into the heart 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 4: of the last great American dream. 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 5: Coming up next, taking a walk, Dennis McNally, Welcome to 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 5: taking a walk. 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 6: It is so great to be with. 26 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 2: You right now, my pleasure. Boss. 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 5: We're almost together. We're not really in person together, which 28 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 5: we we love that. 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 3: But well, you know, I just just yesterday in a 30 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: Zoom meeting, had a friend started, you know, pondering the 31 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: difference between knowing people by Zoom and or the experience 32 00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: of relating to. 33 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: People on Zoom rather than face to face. 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: And there are things about Zoom that are almost you know, preferable, 35 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: So I and given you know all that's happened in 36 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: the last five years, just in terms of COVID and 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 3: then everything else, it's just very it's it's amazing how 38 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 3: this digital connection has become such an essential part of 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: our lives. 40 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: And I, you. 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: Know, I don't mind it, although you know clearly face 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 3: to face is preferable. 43 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 7: It always is preferable. 44 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 6: I think of how Jeffrey Tuban still has a job 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 6: after being on Zoom, but we don't have to go there. 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 7: We can leave that alone. 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 6: So anyway, since the podcast Dennis is called Taking a 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 6: Walk before we get to talking about the Last Great Dream, 49 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 6: which I'm so excited for you to have created this 50 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 6: and released this. Since we call the podcast taken a Walk. 51 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 6: Is there somebody that you would like to take a 52 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 6: walk with, living or dead? And who would that be? 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 6: And where might you want to go with him? 54 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: Well, you know that I haven't gotten that question before. 55 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 3: He usually you know, I can hit auto reply. Well, 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: one impulse is my mother, who died when I was eleven, 57 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: and I sure would like to, you know, have a 58 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 3: nice chat with her. I have so many questions that 59 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: you know, only an adult could think of. 60 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: But also. 61 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 3: I'm a practicing Buddhist. And the man who brought Zen 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 3: to Japan Dogan Zenji. You know, if we could have 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 3: an instantaneous translator somehow for a medieval Japanese into modern English. 64 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: He is one of the most creative, spiritual poets in 65 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 3: world history, and he made for an interesting walk, say 66 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: around downtown Kyoto, which by the way, you know, it's 67 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 3: the place I really want to go. And everything I 68 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: read now is how tourists have completely overrun Japan. So 69 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 3: may be a little too late on that one. 70 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 6: This seems to happen a lot. The tourists ruin everything, 71 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 6: don't they. 72 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 5: I mean, really, I. 73 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 2: Live in San Francisco. What can I say? 74 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 5: That's right, Well, congratulations on the Last Great Dream. 75 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 8: I think it's marvelous and it's particularly I think resonating 76 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 8: at the times that we're in. That's just my opinion, 77 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 8: but we'll get into it. What was your you know, 78 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 8: just the initial light bulb moment that was the inspiration 79 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 8: that told you it was the time for this book? 80 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 3: Well, as you know, you know, I did a book 81 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: about Jack CARROLLAC and in the process became a deadhead 82 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:58,119 Speaker 3: and long story short, became the biographer for The Grateful Dead. 83 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: And then eventually, because of it took me. 84 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:03,039 Speaker 2: It took me double. 85 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 3: Time because it usually it takes me about ten years 86 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: to write a book. In this case, it took twenty 87 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 3: because I became the publicist and you can't do both 88 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 3: at the same time. So that came out, and then 89 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: I did this book about this sort of deeper background 90 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 3: called on Highway sixty one. So anyway, in twenty sixteen, 91 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: the very nice woman at the California Historical Society who's 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 3: now at the Smithsonian, Anthea asked me. They were anticipating 93 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 3: the fiftieth anniversary of the Summer of Love in twenty seventeen. 94 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 3: All the museums in the library and whatnot, We're going 95 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 3: to do some event. So she asked me to curate 96 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 3: a photo show about the Summer of Love, and I 97 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 3: said sure, and oh, I don't know. A month two 98 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 3: months into the research projects, which was hilarious, good fun. 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 2: It was basically a treasure hunt. 100 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 3: I had to track down photographers and then track down 101 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: their airs and you know, but it was you know, 102 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 3: I had an idea in the in the Immortal Words 103 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: of I don't know if it was Rod Stewart, rod 104 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: Stewart himself, but whoever created the phrase every picture tells 105 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 3: the story. 106 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,119 Speaker 2: I went, you know, that's easy. 107 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I know the story I want to tell, 108 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: and so let's get the illustrations. And did and after 109 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 3: a couple three months I suddenly went bozo, it's a book. 110 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: And I sort of went, yeah, right, this is And 111 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 3: and then much later still contrary to some people who went, oh, 112 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: you knew this all along, I went, no, you know, 113 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: I'm like kind of dance on some level, Uh, it 114 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: occurred to me that really it's it's the you know, 115 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 3: the last chapter of a four chapter project that sort 116 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 3: of rounds out my self appointed role, I guess as 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: the historian of the American counterculture since World War Two 118 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 3: in particular. So the Last Great Dream is the biggest 119 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: surprise I got in researching it was simply that nobody 120 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 3: done it before, because there's all kinds of books about 121 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 3: the Summer of Low, but they all start in like 122 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 3: the mid sixties. And I was sort of curious as to, well, 123 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: where did this come from? And I decided that it 124 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 3: started with poets in the nineteen forties, kind of a 125 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 3: combination of anarchism and mysticism. And then there were students 126 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: the San Francisco what became known as the San Francisco 127 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 3: Art Institute, which at that time was called the California 128 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: School of Fine Arts in North Beach in San Francisco 129 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: was in a really interesting period in post War two. 130 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 3: World War two, it had almost closed because you know, 131 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: the war had taken away all the students and thankfully. 132 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: The GI bill. 133 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: Not everybody wanted to use it to buy a house 134 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 3: or you know, go to some conventional college. A lot 135 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: of people wanted to study art, and it worked for them, 136 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 3: and these people tended to be the kind of adventurous 137 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: people who were ready to leave behind conventional values in 138 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: conventional society, and they became really one of the primary 139 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: sources for what we would later come to call beats. 140 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 3: The beat next. But in the forties there were just bohemians. 141 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 3: There were just people who, as I say, you know, 142 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 3: stepped aside from conventional roles and mostly pursued art and love, 143 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: which is, you know, the practical effect of bohemia. 144 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:56,719 Speaker 2: The story starts there. 145 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 3: I actually I'm going to jump ahead and tell one 146 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: specific story because in some ways it really sums up 147 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: the whole book, which is one of those people at 148 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: the Art Institute was a guy named Wally Hedrick, a 149 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 3: very well known beat assemblage artist and big deal in 150 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: that world. He taught at the institute. He taught Saturday 151 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 3: art to high school kids, and in nineteen fifty eight, 152 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 3: one of his students was a young man from the 153 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 3: Mission District of San Francisco named Jerry Garcia. And Wally 154 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 3: played Big Bill Brunsi and other African American blues acoustic 155 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 3: music while they painted, and the end result of that 156 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: was that when Garcia's mother gave him an accordion for 157 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: his birthday. He pissed and moaned and screamed and cried, 158 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: and eventually got himself a guitar, which really. 159 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: Is the end of his biography. The rest is just 160 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 2: more guitar. 161 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 3: But in addition, he and his buddy said to Wally, 162 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: what is the you know, Remember this is nineteen fifty eight, 163 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: he's sixteen. This is this is a time when Beat 164 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: is on the front pages and in the on the 165 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 3: bestseller list. 166 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: And they said to Wally, you know, what is this beat? Then? 167 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 3: You know? And Wally said, you guys are beat good 168 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: down the city lights and get this book on the 169 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: road and you'll find out. And Jerry did and it 170 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 3: was his bible for the rest of his life. And 171 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: then that is why I you know, I'd written a 172 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 3: book about Kerouac. And when he saw it, he liked, 173 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: you know, he happened to like it. Thank you, and 174 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 3: eventually said, why don't you do us, why don't you 175 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: write a book about the gret bul Dead, which I said, 176 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 3: good idea. 177 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 7: Yea, I love it. Thank you for sharing that. 178 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 5: It's amazing. 179 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, So why do you think the story though, of 180 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 6: how you made reference to this of how hippie came 181 00:10:54,080 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 6: to be kind of eluded serious hysteric historical research until now. 182 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 3: Well, the problem with hippie they you know, maybe a 183 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: thousand people, all of them were well into their twenties, 184 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 3: and we're working in the arts in some fashion, whether 185 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: it was as as poets or as painters or or 186 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 3: a lot of course a lot of music too, took 187 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: refuge in the Hate. It was a very inexpensive neighborhood, 188 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: which is the virtue of all neighborhoods where people want 189 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 3: to you know, practice art because you know, it's not 190 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 3: usually financially successful. 191 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: And it went very well. 192 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: They they you know, it was a psychedelic neighborhood. They 193 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: all almost all did psychedelic drugs and experimented with social freedom, 194 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 3: with with you know, free love as it was once called, 195 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: with challenge you know, anti materialism and challenging the standard 196 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: where you're supposed to act as an American. So it 197 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: went extremely well, so well in fact, that they planned 198 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 3: a party to celebrate it, and that was called the Being. Unfortunately, 199 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,959 Speaker 3: the Being attracted fifty thousand people, and suddenly what was 200 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 3: going on in the Hay, which had been very under 201 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 3: the radar and just you know, nobody. 202 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 2: Paid any particular attention to it. 203 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: San Francisco has a tradition of tolerance for crazy, and 204 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 3: there was just there just wasn't much of a problem. 205 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: And in fact, on the day of the b in 206 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 3: the total security allotment for the San Francisco Police Department 207 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: were two cops on horseback who were like watching the 208 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 3: you know, watching this, And to illustrate their attitude, I 209 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 3: might add, a lady walked up to them and begged 210 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 3: them for help in finding she lost her child. And 211 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: the copper replied, go down to the stage, ask them 212 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: to make an announcement. 213 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: They'll help you. 214 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 3: That's you know, you won't have any problem, he said, 215 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: But lady, we can't go down there at the smoking pot. 216 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 3: And you know, so obviously they were not what do 217 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 3: you call confrontational. That of course blew their cover, and 218 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: really everything that happened after that was sort of a 219 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: holding action because the general assumption was that somewhere between 220 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 3: one and a quarter one hundred thousand and a quarter 221 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 3: million people kids, kids, high school kids, college kids, people 222 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: without a lot of resources, whether financial or just life 223 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 3: you know, flexibility, people who would need to be taken 224 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: care of and they they spent the spring, you know, 225 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 3: anticipating that, and nobody really knows how many people came 226 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: in the summer, but it was too many and it 227 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 3: kind of ruined it as a neighborhood. But there was 228 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: in the in the end, you know, the ideas of 229 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: what was going on there, you know, went out and 230 00:13:54,559 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: it involved things like it didn't It probably helped somewhat 231 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: with anti war efforts the Vietnam War, but after that 232 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: it was cultural, not political. And what they did was 233 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: organic food is now a forty billion dollar year business. 234 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 3: And these issues, I mean, these issues had preceded it, 235 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 3: but the sixties and the hay brought them up, you know, 236 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 3: to a much more. It brought them to the forefront. 237 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 3: So you have things like organic food, you have well, 238 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,479 Speaker 3: the peace movement in general. Challenging is the cultural stereotypes, 239 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: like the whole idea of the gentle male hippie. 240 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: Just the first time. 241 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: Anybody had ever gone out of their way to suggest 242 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: that you know, guys could didn't have to be punching 243 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 3: each other out, and that, I would argue, led aided feminism, 244 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: which was emerging just after in the more in the 245 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: late sixties of the seventies and gay rights. And you know, 246 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 3: it wasn't an accident that just a few years after 247 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 3: the hate, you know, every gay guy in Kansas said, 248 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: I think San Francisco might be more fun to live in. 249 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: And another example which people don't realize. And there's a 250 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: wonderful book which I recommend to you by a man 251 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: named John Markoff called What the Dormouse Said, and it 252 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: is about the psychedelic history of Silicon Valley. There's a 253 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: reason why the home computer, the individual based computer comes 254 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: from Silicon Valley rather than say near Mit because noja 255 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: all jokes aside, there was a history of people doing LSD, 256 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 3: which created an interest in things that were more individual 257 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 3: than the sort of IBM giant you know, giant computer. 258 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 3: And the two people that are most associated with this, 259 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 3: Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, were part of a homebrew 260 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 3: computer cub which was involved, which all of whom had 261 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: connections to LSD. 262 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 2: So you know, and there's lots more. 263 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: But the fact is that a great deal of what 264 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: we think of as an alternative culture, and I grant you, 265 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: at the moment it's not looking very good considering the 266 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: current administration. But the fact is that it's not surprising 267 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: either the current administration. To go back, just a brief 268 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: history lesson, Ronald Reagan got elected governor in nineteen sixty 269 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: six and then president in nineteen eighty by running on 270 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 3: an anti Hipnie, anti free speech movement, in an anti 271 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 3: Watts rebellion, anti Black Frankly. 272 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: Campaign. 273 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: And there's a through line from Reagan to Donald Trump. 274 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: Donald Trump's shall we say, somewhat more nuts, just more 275 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: overt and and and pretty pretty wild, h Van Reagan. 276 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 3: But the the the politics which are to you know, 277 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 3: return control of the government to the white male elite, 278 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 3: which is in a large larger sense what it's about 279 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 3: is exactly in opposition to the Six Days. If you 280 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 3: read my book, as I hope every you know, everybody will, 281 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 3: that they they can see the values that were generated 282 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 3: there and how they're they're they're still real. 283 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: It's just. 284 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 3: Well, things would be a little different if somebody else 285 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: has won the election. 286 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: But that's another story. 287 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 7: And I think all you described is one of the 288 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 7: many reasons why your book is really resonating at this 289 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 7: at this time for sure, because of the times that 290 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 7: that we. 291 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 4: Certainly live in We'll be back with more of the 292 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 4: Taken a Walk Podcast in a bit now. If you're 293 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 4: looking for a rock and roll oriented podcast, we invite 294 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 4: you to check out The Imbalanced History of rock and Roll. 295 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 4: The history's fascinating. There's so much to uncover. The Imbalanced 296 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 4: History of rock and Roll explores moments in time, albums, songs, events, 297 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 4: and people who had an impact on the history of 298 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 4: rock and roll. They keep rock and roll fun. The 299 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 4: Imbalanced History of rock and Roll find it wherever you 300 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 4: get your podcasts. 301 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Taking a Walk Podcast. 302 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 5: I want to talk about the deep research that I 303 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 5: know that you always do and whether you had surprises, 304 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 5: certain revelations, overlooked characters, maybe that showed up that you 305 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:59,879 Speaker 5: hadn't necessarily thought of or realized. 306 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 3: The big surprise I had two surprises. One of course, 307 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 3: was that nobody had done this before. I really I 308 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 3: kept waiting to find a book that was going to, 309 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 3: you know, look at some of the origins of all this, 310 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 3: because everybody, you know, tended to start in like the 311 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 3: mid sixties. The other is San Francisco in particular. The 312 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: book touches a lot on La New York and London 313 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 3: and each of those places were very receptive, but kind 314 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 3: of the creator of this impulse was particularly San Francisco. 315 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 3: Psychedelics had a lot to do with it. Psychedelics are 316 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 3: something that really resonates with nature, and San Francisco. You 317 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: can stand on H Street and you're looking at Golden 318 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 3: Gate Park. There's Mount tam you know, across the way. 319 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: It's an appropriate place for that. 320 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 2: New York City to me is not. 321 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, the the biggest nature for the 322 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 3: for the you know, Greenwich Village area is Tompkins Square Park, 323 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 3: and that's you know, that's not too much nature. But 324 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 3: at any rate, for me, the surprise was I started 325 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 3: without anything particularly in mind, and then I mean I 326 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 3: just started looking, and fairly quickly I went on the 327 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 3: as I say, the poets, and and then some art students. 328 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: And then as time went along and into the fifties, 329 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 3: there was theater, there was dance woman in Ann Halpern. 330 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: There was this wonderful place called the Tate Music Center, 331 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 3: which involved electronic music, you know, sort of leaps and 332 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: blour ups and not something that's generally very popular. But 333 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 3: the thing is, uh, it invited. They had they opened 334 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 3: up a building for their work, and they brought in 335 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 3: the dancers and and KPFA, and it creates did an 336 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 3: energy that was way more than I mean, you know, 337 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 3: not many people are going to get into heavy duty 338 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 3: electronic music, but the energy went way beyond that. And 339 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 3: what happened was through the late fifties and into the 340 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 3: early sixties you constantly get this blending where you'd have 341 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 3: an event in which you'd have you know, painters maybe 342 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 3: on the walls, and then you'd have music, you know, 343 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 3: local musicians playing strange music. 344 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: There's a classic example is an event that. 345 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: The Mime Troop, which would go on to have a 346 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: lot to do when they got arrested with the development 347 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: of the rock culture in San Francisco, and the Mime 348 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 3: Troops sponsored this event and they had they had the painters, 349 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 3: they had an early progenitor of the light shows they had, 350 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 3: and you know, people like Phil Lesh of the Grateful 351 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 3: Dead later of the Grateful Dead, this is five years 352 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 3: before who was, you know, playing a little trumpet and 353 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 3: just mostly there and he's not even sure why is 354 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 3: there except it was an experiment in consciousness and uh 355 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 3: and and improvisational music, which at the time he wasn't 356 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 3: really an improvisational music musician so much. But of course 357 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 3: it turned out that he had a talent for that 358 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 3: and would go on to a very distinguished career, and 359 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 3: that that was the surprise. You know, There's this these 360 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 3: wonderful events in which the full span of odd you know, 361 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 3: of oddball avant garde art would come together and instead 362 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 3: of being siloed, as the current phrase has it, they 363 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 3: would consciously reach out to each other and say, let's 364 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: do something. 365 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: And the end result was when you do that. 366 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 3: And you have all these artists running around and then 367 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 3: you stir in some LSD and people came to to 368 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 3: that experience pretty much with the same reaction. And then 369 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 3: you so in you have all these One of the 370 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: elements was rock and roll was always part of all 371 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 3: of this in the fifties. And then you've got folk, 372 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 3: the folk music which was overtly political from the beginning. 373 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 3: And then you have all these folk musicians and they 374 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 3: encounter LST and the Beatles, and the end result is 375 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 3: the San Francisco music scene, which carried all those values 376 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 3: implicitly or explicitly in either a benign an easy way 377 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: like Jerry Garcia, or a more aggressive and in your 378 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 3: face way like Paul Kantner and the airplane. 379 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 9: He loved to provoke the police. Paul, he liked he 380 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 9: liked to provoke people. Actually, but you have, you know, 381 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 9: you have. 382 00:23:53,720 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 3: The end result is this hippie thing, and it's it's 383 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 3: lives in the music. And that's why my book ends 384 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 3: at Monterey Pop, which is sort of the high point 385 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 3: where everything is fresh and new and quite wonderful, I 386 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 3: wrote in the book, and I think it's true one 387 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 3: of the stereotypes. And it is a stereotype because you know, 388 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 3: this all came from media who took one look at 389 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: the hippies and went, huh. You know, they just they 390 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,679 Speaker 3: didn't get it. Literally, they just didn't get what was 391 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: going on. 392 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: All they knew. 393 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 3: All they could tell was flowers and you know, dreamy 394 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:40,120 Speaker 3: eyed girls in long dresses and whatnot. The end result 395 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 3: was all these values got poured into the music and 396 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 3: at Monterey, you know, the stereotype was that, you know, 397 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 3: the summer of love was beautiful young people with flowers 398 00:24:54,440 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 3: in their hair, very high, listening to wonderful music, apped 399 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 3: in blissful peacefulness. Well, at Monterey for four days it 400 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 3: was that was reality. It really was, and you know, 401 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 3: you have this magical music which is going to change 402 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 3: America music for the next twenty years. And I might 403 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 3: add you also had a speaking as someone who's worked 404 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: with a band that had crowd control problems at times. 405 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: You had a potential crowd control problem where there were 406 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 3: maybe seven thousand seats in the arena and there were 407 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: probably twenty five thousand people on the grounds and nothing 408 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: bad happened. And you know, it could have been a 409 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 3: spectacular mess, but the ambiance, the spirit of the sixties 410 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 3: really held true, and people if they couldn't get in, 411 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 3: they just sat outside and listened. And it by literally 412 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 3: it was a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and by Saturday afternoon, 413 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 3: the police chief of Monterey was sending us cops. Yeah, 414 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 3: you know, of course he called it all you know, 415 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: all hands on deck on Friday, you know, with not 416 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 3: all you've got hippies, but but Hell's angels coming into 417 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 3: Monterey and they're. 418 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 2: All by Saturday. It was obviously it wasn't a problem. 419 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 6: The book is full of stories that captured, you know, 420 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 6: the spirit of the artistic and social experimentation of the era. 421 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 6: Is there one story in particular you can share that 422 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 6: really sticks out, that captures what was going on there. 423 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 2: He kind of. 424 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: One of them and going back to you know, getting surprised, 425 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 3: so I read, Okay, there's a guy named Hendrik Hertzberg. 426 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: Uh he at least up until recently. I'm not sure 427 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 3: if it's just this minute, but was the lead writer 428 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 3: for He would write the opening sentence in the article 429 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 3: in The New Yorker for years, very you know, important 430 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: guy in American literary and political culture. In nineteen sixty six, 431 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 3: he was a cub reporter for Newsweek, and he went 432 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 3: to the hate and you know, poked around and for 433 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 3: whatever reason, maybe it was his age, they he completely 434 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: got them. 435 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: He understood what was going on. 436 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 3: He didn't ever go the boy that these people weird 437 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 3: that every other reporter did. 438 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: He was simpatico. 439 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 3: And if the Newsweek had like been smart enough to 440 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 3: publish his notes, they would have had the best article 441 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: about about tapes ever. 442 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know whether it would have mattered. 443 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 3: Much because you know, the other it's not as though 444 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 3: the other writers were going to get enlightened. But the 445 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 3: fact is that it's amazing now the article that came out, 446 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: as you know, I'm sure of Newsweek and Time magazine 447 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: in those days, one person did the reporting, or multiple persons, 448 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: and one did the writing, and the right you know, 449 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 3: the writing was as as not get it, you know, 450 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 3: they it was as though they barely read what his 451 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: notes were, because what they published was something that included 452 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 3: things like that wearing a necklace meant you had taken LSD. 453 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 3: Things like that, silly things, a complete failure to understand 454 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 3: which is normal was normal uh for the media. And 455 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: to me that that that complete inability to understand that 456 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 3: what the hippies were about, as the beats before them, 457 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: was about a spiritual riate reawakening in America. Go and 458 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 3: this isn't original, This goes all the way back to threeaux. 459 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 3: But the fact is you've got a depression, you've got 460 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 3: a war, you've got a Cold War, and because of 461 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 3: the Cold War, you've got all this anxiety about about 462 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 3: you know, Russian infiltration. 463 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: Hmm set sound familiar. 464 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 3: The price for the prosperity of the fifties was was uh, 465 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 3: you know, uh, conform conformity and you know, keeping your 466 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: mouth shut. You know again, sound familiar, don't you know, 467 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: don't criticize uh, you know, capitalism and and and what's 468 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 3: going on because you know, we're all making more money now, 469 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 3: which was true the money part. Suddenly you've got this 470 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: group of people who are saying, you know again, it's 471 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 3: the same and the message ultimately is the same as 472 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 3: as as the meats, which is simply there's more to 473 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 3: life than just you know, making money, buying a house, 474 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 3: you know, being good little robots. The media could only 475 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 3: see the in general, except for Hendrick I swear, could 476 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: only see the obvious, which is they dress funny and 477 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 3: they talk funny, and you know, they're not behaving and 478 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: so forth and so on. That's what got translated to 479 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 3: the mass audience. 480 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: And it's a pity. 481 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 3: But having now in twenty twenty five, particularly for my 482 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 3: generation which saw politically it's high water mark at driving 483 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: a corrupt and unconstitutional president out of office with the 484 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 3: media thanks to the media in nineteen seventy four, we've 485 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 3: been on a downhill slide since because we've got a 486 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 3: media that's you know, explicitly political, i e. Fox News, 487 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: and instead of the media that sort of you know, 488 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 3: was the traditional guardians of liberty and you know, keeping 489 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 3: people honest. You know, it's it's you know, overtly cheerleaders, 490 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 3: and now it's because of a news site, you know, 491 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 3: the twenty four hour news cycle twenty that that's so 492 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 3: out of date. Now, I don't know what is it 493 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 3: the instantaneous news cycle that we're living in in this case, 494 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 3: you know right now, I mean it's Epstein, Epstein, Epstein 495 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 3: and a president who's basically saying, don't listen to them, 496 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 3: don't listen to them, which is interesting. This is kind 497 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: of new and kind of over intense, and you know, 498 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 3: all of us are staring at our screens going what 499 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 3: the heck is going on? 500 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 6: We sure are As you reflect, I want to close 501 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 6: on this and have you think of the work you 502 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 6: put into the Last Great Dream, and as you reflected 503 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 6: on it, thinking of your life as well, because you 504 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 6: know you've lived through so many experiences that that. 505 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 7: You write about. 506 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 6: Is there anything you would say to younger Dennis McNally 507 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 6: that you think would have been a key statement that 508 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 6: would have done something significant for you. 509 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 3: I'm not sure what i'd say to me back in 510 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 3: the only depression I ever had in my life, serious 511 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 3: depression I ever had in my life, was after the 512 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 3: it was I identified it It's a little bold because 513 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 3: I am not a woman, but I identified it as 514 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 3: postpartum depression, namely that I'd given birth to this seven 515 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 3: year project, this book on Krauac, and I didn't know 516 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: what I was going to do next, and it took 517 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: a year before I was invited to do a Grateful 518 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 3: Dead book, which is what I wanted. So the point is, 519 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 3: I've been incredibly lucky in my life that the thing 520 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 3: I wanted to do most was what I've done, which 521 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: is these books, and on the subjects. You know that 522 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 3: I wanted to write about what would I tell myself? 523 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 3: You know I got dumb about drugs when I was 524 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 3: working in rock and roll. That makes me unique. But 525 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: you know that only lasted, you know, a couple of 526 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 3: years of stupidity. You know, I've had the work I wanted. 527 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 3: Thanks to the Grateful Dad. I met the wife I wanted. 528 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: She came with a twelve year old daughter, a biological 529 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 3: daughter who eventually we ended up adopting each other. 530 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: So I got the family that I wanted. She has 531 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: two sons. 532 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: I have two grandsons who are in their teens now 533 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 3: are late teens, early twenties, going to college and you know, 534 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 3: they're lovely people. I've fucked out, so I don't know 535 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: what advice I apparently was doing something right. I wasn't 536 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 3: very conscious. A lot of it was dumb luck. My intuition, 537 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 3: for instance, that I could not, you know, approach the 538 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 3: grateful dead and say, hi, I'd like to write a 539 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 3: book about you, because they would have said, sure, take 540 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 3: a number, or at least that's my import and then, 541 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 3: knowing what I know now, that's pretty much accurate. 542 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 2: Now how I knew that, I don't know. I just did. 543 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 3: And what I needed to do, and what I ended 544 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 3: up getting was I couldn't have the idea come from me. 545 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 3: It had to come from them, and eventually it did 546 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 3: from Jerry and thanks to the caroc book. So I 547 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 3: lucked out, you know, as I say, I, you know, 548 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 3: just keep on doing what you're doing. And most of it, 549 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 3: you know, most of it worked out. 550 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 5: That's a pretty darn good lesson right there, when you 551 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 5: think of it, you know, stick to it, Pick the 552 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 5: people that you'd like to be working with or the 553 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 5: subject matter that you'd be you know, associated with, and 554 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 5: then pour your heart into your craft. 555 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 3: And you know, that was pretty much it, you know, 556 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 3: I committed to what I wanted to do, and it 557 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,680 Speaker 3: was you know, it wasn't God knows, it wasn't for money, 558 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 3: because I will be honest and say I got quite 559 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 3: a large sum of money for the Grateful Dead book, 560 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 3: not because of me, but because of the subject. The 561 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 3: other books have not, you know, have no But the 562 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 3: other books are just as satisfying, especially this last one, 563 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 3: which is the response to it is, I mean, the 564 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 3: Grateful Dead book. A large part of the response, of course, 565 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 3: was the subject. And so you know, that's good. It 566 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,919 Speaker 3: feels that this the Last Great Dream, is much more 567 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 3: the response is much more towards my work rather than 568 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 3: the subject per se. Although you know, I went to 569 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 3: a I did an event at the North Berkeley Public Library, 570 00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 3: and North Berkeley is a neighborhood that's very much graying. 571 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: It's you know, it's people my age in their sixties 572 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 3: and seventies, and many of whom I'm sure were at 573 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,840 Speaker 3: the being or whatnot, you know, certainly sympathetic to the 574 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 3: events of the sixties. And I was a little startled 575 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: because it was just packed, you know, it was just 576 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 3: a little library thing, and I thought, you know, it's 577 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 3: not gonna be a big deal, which it didn't matter 578 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 3: if it would. I once did in a library event 579 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 3: and competed with the San Francisco Giants twenty fourteen playoff run, 580 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 3: and two people showed up and I gave them the 581 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 3: full forty five. You know, it was like there you go, 582 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 3: you know, but you have to do the show, and 583 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 3: I did the show. This surprised me at how you know, 584 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,440 Speaker 3: and granted it's sort of a very appropriate neighborhood, but 585 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 3: at any rate, it was packed and the asthmat fact, 586 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 3: pretty much all of my events have really gotten this turnout, 587 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 3: so you know, thank you, thank you. 588 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 2: Thank you. 589 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 7: It's amazing. 590 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 5: The Last Great Dream a sweeping, wonderful chronicle of how bohemians, 591 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 5: beats and hippies cracked open American culture. 592 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 6: Thanks for inviting us to step inside of it. 593 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 5: And it's always a pleasure being with you. 594 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 2: Dennis McNally, Thank you, buzz. It's you know, it's nice 595 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 2: to talk about it with you. In particular, thanks. 596 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: For listening to this episode of the Taking a Walk podcast. 597 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 1: Share this and other episodes with your friends and follow 598 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: us so you never miss an episode. Taking a Walk 599 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts and wherever 600 00:37:41,520 --> 00:38:01,360 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. 601 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 2: Give people belie