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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 2: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 2: it just means the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 1: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 3: All right, Welcome back to Counterpoints, Happy Wednesday. Emily Drishinski

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Speaker 3: joined by my co host Ryan Grim who is still

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Speaker 3: remote for the time being. Ryan, how are you.

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Speaker 4: I'm doing good.

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Speaker 1: I'll be be back pretty soon. Looking forward to seeing

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Speaker 1: you and everybody in the studio, but also been nice

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Speaker 1: to be away.

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Speaker 4: Got to say, Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I can't imagine it's a good time to be

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Speaker 3: away from the swamp, that's for sure. Speaking of all

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Speaker 3: of the all of the craziness in the swamp, We're

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Speaker 3: going to be tackling all kinds of good stuff today.

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Speaker 3: That would be starting with Georgia, the fallout from the

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Speaker 3: latest Trump indictment. We have a lot to break down

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Speaker 3: in terms of how Trump has responded, how his fellow

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Speaker 3: Republican candidates have responded. We're gonna talk about Chris Christy

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Speaker 3: in a recent poll in New Hampshire taking the edge

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Speaker 3: over Ron DeSantis. He's actually leading Ronda Santis. We're going

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Speaker 3: to talk about that in one pole. The likelihood of

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Speaker 3: a government shutdown increases by the day. We'll probably see

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Speaker 3: some real threats of that going into the fall. Kevin

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Speaker 3: McCarthy as new things to talk about on that, We're

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Speaker 3: gonna talk about the cycle of tragedy in Ecuador, which

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Speaker 3: is an important place to look at US policy. It's

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Speaker 3: an important place to look at what's happening in South America,

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Speaker 3: Central America in general. And we're gonna be breaking down

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Speaker 3: a little bit of both of our takes on what's

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Speaker 3: happening with the Blindside controversy in Michael orr and the

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Speaker 3: family who famously took him in whether or not there's

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Speaker 3: truth to their story. We're going to get into all

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Speaker 3: of it. I'm gonna be talking about Hillary Clinton weighing

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Speaker 3: in on the Trump indictment in a very giggly interview

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Speaker 3: with Rachel Maddow. And you're going to be talking about

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Speaker 3: Pakistan again.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we've got to follow up on that.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after we broke the news on the show here

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Speaker 1: last week, the State Department was pressed on this secret

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Speaker 1: cable that demonstrated that the US had in fact pushed

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Speaker 1: Imran Khan out of power in Pakistan. In a recent interview,

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Speaker 1: the outgoing Prime Minister has now authenticated the document. Because

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Speaker 1: there were some people who would take a kind of

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Speaker 1: three step approach. They'd say, this document is inauthentic, this

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Speaker 1: document was leaked by Imran Khan, and it's a treasonous act.

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Speaker 1: It was not leaked by Imran Khan. And also it's

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Speaker 1: a nothing burger. So they were all three of self

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Speaker 1: contradictory claims would be made it once and it seems

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Speaker 1: like now they're finally giving up on the inauthentic claim.

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Speaker 1: And we'll talk about the completely bizarre State Department response

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Speaker 1: as well. But speaking of jailing political opponents, we've got

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Speaker 1: number four for a good old former president Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: We've got rico charges. What do you make of the

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Speaker 1: case that's being laid out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Rico charges is specifically something I wanted to

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Speaker 3: ask you about because you've covered cases like this for

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Speaker 3: a while, and Fanny Willis is a big fan of

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Speaker 3: Rico has used it in the past, and before we

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Speaker 3: even get into that, I think it's worth mentioning. Donald

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Speaker 3: Trump himself says we can put a one up on

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Speaker 3: the screen here. He posted a truth social yesterday morning,

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Speaker 3: so Tuesday morning, saying that a large, complex, detailed but

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Speaker 3: irrefutable report on the presidential election fraud which took place

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Speaker 3: in Georgia is almost complete and will be presented by

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Speaker 3: me at a major news conference at eleven am on

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Speaker 3: Monday of next week in Bedminster, New Jersey. Based on

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Speaker 3: the results of this conclusive report, all charges should be

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Speaker 3: dropped against me and others. There will be a complete exoneration.

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Speaker 3: So Donald Trump is having a press conference where he

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Speaker 3: is going to be, according to this truth Social post,

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Speaker 3: putting on display, demonstrating and showing evidence for what he

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Speaker 3: says is an irrefutable case that there was fraud in

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Speaker 3: Georgia and all of the charges against him should be dropped.

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Speaker 3: Now let's put a two up on the screen. There

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Speaker 3: have been some interesting reactions from Donald Trump's fellow candidates.

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Speaker 3: Vivek Ramaswami said he called this another disastrous Trump indictment,

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Speaker 3: and he also said, as someone who's running for a

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Speaker 3: President against Trump. I'd volunteer to write the amick is

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Speaker 3: briefed to the court myself. Prosecutors should not be deciding

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Speaker 3: US presidential elections, and if they're so overzealous that they

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Speaker 3: commit constitutional violations, then the cases should be thrown out

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Speaker 3: and they should be held accountable. Ron de Santis said

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Speaker 3: he's going to end the weaponization of federal agencies like

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Speaker 3: the DOJ and FBI. I think it's an example of

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Speaker 3: this criminalization of politics. I don't think this is something

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Speaker 3: that's good for the country. And then you know, you

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Speaker 3: have your Asa Hutchinson's and Will Hurd who said things

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Speaker 3: you know that this is like Donald Trump demonstrating he's

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Speaker 3: fit for office, basically what you could expect from those

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Speaker 3: to I think this is another great example of how

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Speaker 3: Ramaswami has a better colm strategy. Is somebody running in

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Speaker 3: the Trump lane or the Trump adjacent lane than Rotten DeSantis,

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Speaker 3: who's supposed to be running in like the Trump adjacent lane,

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Speaker 3: the Trump but not Trump lane. Once again, I think

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Speaker 3: Ramaswami had a better messaging strategy there than DeSantis himself did.

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Speaker 3: But as for the case itself, Ryan, I, as I

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Speaker 3: read through the ninety eight page indictment from Fanny Willis

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Speaker 3: had a pretty similar reaction to when I read through

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Speaker 3: Jack Smith's indictment, which is that it's very dangerous to

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Speaker 3: say you know that people were and this word comes

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Speaker 3: up over and over again in both indictments, knowingly spreading

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Speaker 3: false information. So this is I think the predicate of

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Speaker 3: both cases, and in Jack Smith's case, and a couple

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Speaker 3: of times in Willis's case, she does show that there

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Speaker 3: were people who knew they were spreading false information in

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Speaker 3: certain particular instances. She also, in Jack Smith, also accuses

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Speaker 3: people Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani of knowingly spreading disinformation

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Speaker 3: information they were aware was false in times where I

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Speaker 3: don't think they've proved, and I doubt they have the

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Speaker 3: evidence to prove that those people knew it was false. Now,

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Speaker 3: I think it was grossly unethical because I imagine a lot

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Speaker 3: of times they did realize some of this information was

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Speaker 3: at best very very iffy. But to charge people for

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Speaker 3: that without evidence, I think is a pretty terrifying precedent.

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Speaker 3: There are cases where they're citing evidence in both of

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Speaker 3: these indictments, and I want to be clear about that.

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Speaker 3: I also think that as a predicate for you know,

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Speaker 3: going after a political opponent, which is something that we

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Speaker 3: have generally steered away from in this country. People weren't

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Speaker 3: happy when Ford pardoned Nixon, and you know, we can

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Speaker 3: go back and think about that, we can think about

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Speaker 3: what Coomi did with Hillary Clinton, but we've typically sort

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Speaker 3: of steered away from that in the United States. So

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Speaker 3: if you're going to do it, I think it's sets

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Speaker 3: a precedent that scares me a little bit to say, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: of course they knew it was false without any evidence.

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Speaker 3: In order to charge them with the conspiracy, and in

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Speaker 3: order to charge them with the statutes that Fanny Willis

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Speaker 3: is listing, you do need to prove that they knew

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Speaker 3: it was false. So maybe she can do that. I'm

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Speaker 3: pretty skeptical. What did you make of it, Ryan.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if all that they were doing was spreading

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Speaker 1: false information, I would one hundred percent agree with you

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Speaker 1: and say that we cannot go down the road of

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Speaker 1: criminalizing lies. Now, you have a First Amendment right as

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Speaker 1: a politician to lie. All politicians lie. Now you don't

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Speaker 1: have the right to do it on YouTube. Apparently you

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Speaker 1: know they'll they'll take you down for that. But broadly speaking,

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Speaker 1: under the constitutional umbrella, politicians have the constitutional right to

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Speaker 1: lie their pants off, and they have a veiled themselves

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Speaker 1: of that right for two hundred plus years, and they

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Speaker 1: will continue to do it for as long as.

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Speaker 4: This republic exists.

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Speaker 1: But if the lies are linked up with action, and

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Speaker 1: that action is it self illegal, then it does matter.

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Speaker 1: And to me, the most blatant kind of illegal acts

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Speaker 1: that are very hard to explain away, and hey, and

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Speaker 1: is until Grubn guilty, these nineteen guys can and women

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Speaker 1: can go before the jury and try to you know,

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Speaker 1: explain away what they did. But to me, the hacking,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to bust into the Georgia voter database going,

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Speaker 1: which they sort of seem to imply they had some

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Speaker 1: access to legitimately, but it wasn't really legitimate, Like this

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Speaker 1: was not kind of public access that they were exploiting here.

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Speaker 1: And also the go you know, go and find me

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Speaker 1: eleven thousand votes, and then also creating fake electors like

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Speaker 1: if you create, if you make make if you run

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Speaker 1: a fake ID business, if you run if you falsify

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Speaker 1: mortgage documents, if you engage in that type of fraud,

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Speaker 1: those are crimes, and so if they can prove that,

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Speaker 1: I do think, then it does have to follow that

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Speaker 1: it doesn't actually necessarily have to follow that they knew

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent that the election was stolen, you know.

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Speaker 1: And what I mean is this, like, let's pretend that

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Speaker 1: we can get inside of Donald Trump's mind and he

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Speaker 1: really did one hundred percent believe that, you know, he

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Speaker 1: beat Joe Biden in Georgia. He also knows that you

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Speaker 1: have a variety of legal paths that you're able to

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Speaker 1: take in the United States that allow you to challenge

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Speaker 1: what you consider to be, you know, an unfair or

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Speaker 1: a rigged election, and that's mostly going through the courts.

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Speaker 1: They went through the courts, they failed. They knew that

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Speaker 1: that was the outcome. So even if at the end

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Speaker 1: of all that they still believe that they were wronged,

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Speaker 1: it kind of doesn't matter what you believe. Like, if

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Speaker 1: you believe that you were unfairly convicted of burglary, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't give you the right to break out of prison,

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Speaker 1: even if you authentically believed and were even innocent.

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Speaker 4: And so we have rules.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is not Vietnam, as they say, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't follow the rules. They went outside of it

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Speaker 1: and used all of these the extra judicial, extra legal

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Speaker 1: processes to try to overturn the like. So I think

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Speaker 1: in some ways you don't even necessarily need to prove

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Speaker 1: that they knew they were lying, although a ton of

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Speaker 1: them knew, like a whole bunch of them knew. But

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Speaker 1: what they absolutely knew is that the election had been

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Speaker 1: certified and he lost by eleven thousand votes. They knew

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Speaker 1: that rapid Berger told him that the news reported it.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knew that he disagreed with it, right, But whether

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Speaker 1: or not that was an authentic disagreement or not in

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Speaker 1: some point besides.

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Speaker 3: That's what I find frustrating, though, is that jump from

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Speaker 3: it's likely that you know, So if Raffensberger is telling

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump you don't have the votes, it's a pretty

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Speaker 3: good piece of evidence that, frankly, you don't have the votes.

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Speaker 3: This is a Republican talking to a Republican and in

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Speaker 3: all likelihood you don't have the votes. And that goes

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Speaker 3: to Rusty Bauers as well from Arizona, who was telling

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump similar things. But Jack smithan Willis say, well,

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Speaker 3: because Brad Ravensberger and Rusty Bauers had told Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: and his legal team, what they thought about the vote

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Speaker 3: totals he knew, and then everything he said differently from

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Speaker 3: that was knowingly spreading false information because somebody had told

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Speaker 3: him that. But the fact is, and as these indictment show,

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Speaker 3: he has legal experts telling him different things. And to

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Speaker 3: your point, Ryan, it's one of those it's like, what

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Speaker 3: do we know about what Donald Trump actually believed? And

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Speaker 3: that's where legally it gets in a different territory. For me,

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Speaker 3: it just becomes it becomes really difficult to it becomes

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Speaker 3: very difficult. The legal precedent for me becomes very difficult.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And if we can put up this next Axios element,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at a wild twenty twenty four because you

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Speaker 1: have all of these different court cases starting to line

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Speaker 1: up with Iowa, New Hampshire Super Tuesday, the Democratic side

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Speaker 1: of the Republican National Convention, and you're going to have

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Speaker 1: them kind of weaving in and out of the political

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Speaker 1: cycle in a way that's going to kind of never

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Speaker 1: take this off the kind of news map for more

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Speaker 1: than say a week. You're always gonna have some type

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Speaker 1: of motion or decision coming down in one of these

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Speaker 1: different cases. And so Emily, on the one hand, I

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Speaker 1: feel like this helps Trump in the sense that it

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Speaker 1: rallies Republicans around him, also feel like it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: help him with a general electorate, which key can where

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Speaker 1: he continues to erode support. So I'm wondering what your

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Speaker 1: sense is of the politics.

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Speaker 4: We've never come.

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Speaker 1: Close to having a presidential election unfold and anything remotely

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Speaker 1: like this.

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Speaker 3: No, And again to the last point that we were

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Speaker 3: debating a little bit. It's part of what makes me

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Speaker 3: wish that this were happening at the ballot box. And

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Speaker 3: I come from the perspective that, like I wish we

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Speaker 3: locked every politician up who did something bad, but the

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Speaker 3: fact of the matter is we don't. And so when

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Speaker 3: you have the public watching something like this play out,

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Speaker 3: I think it creates a lot ranker. We're gonna be

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Speaker 3: talking about this in the Hillary Clinton block coming up

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Speaker 3: in a little bit, and we can probably go back

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Speaker 3: and forth out it more then. But when you look

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Speaker 3: at this calendar and you look at what's happened since

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Speaker 3: the first indictment came down in April, Donald Trump's numbers

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Speaker 3: and the gap between him and any other candidate has

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Speaker 3: gone up. So it helps Trump in the primary, might

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Speaker 3: not help him in the general. But the reason it

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Speaker 3: helps him in the primary is that I think it's

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Speaker 3: for the same reason it helps whatever candidate, likely Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden is matched up with Donald Trump. This is the

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Speaker 3: type of thing that energizes both bases, and then you

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Speaker 3: have this middle of the country that's just like, well,

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Speaker 3: what the hell am I supposed to do with this?

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Speaker 3: I think Donald Trump is nuts, and I think he

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Speaker 3: has done all kinds of extra legal things. The other hand,

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at Joe Biden, who's got all kinds of

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Speaker 3: issues of his own, whether that's cognitive problems, whether that's

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden problems, whether that's the economy frankly, and so

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Speaker 3: I just I mean, it makes me, it pains me

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Speaker 3: for the country thinking of looking at that axios chart,

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Speaker 3: looking at the calendar going forward, which if you're listening

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Speaker 3: to this, if you find that axious timeline, it might

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Speaker 3: be worth looking up because it's incredible to look at

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Speaker 3: how many court dates and how on earth even one

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Speaker 3: person could balance a presidential campaign with these four indictments

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Speaker 3: in all of these different jurisdictions. Over the next year

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Speaker 3: or so, it is going to be I like, buckle up,

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Speaker 3: because we're in for a pretty wild.

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Speaker 1: Ride, a plus a golf schedule that he's got to

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Speaker 1: work in there too. But the irony here, and I'm

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Speaker 1: curious for your take on this. If he had done

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Speaker 1: what every other president you know, ever throughout American history

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Speaker 1: had done, which is to concede to the person who won,

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Speaker 1: just say, you know what, Sleepy Joe got the best

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Speaker 1: of me.

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Speaker 4: I'll be back in four years.

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Speaker 1: I feel like he would be the odds on favorite,

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Speaker 1: not just to win the Republican nomination that was his taking,

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Speaker 1: but to win the White House again. I feel like

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Speaker 1: he'd be that Democrats would be running scared that Biden

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Speaker 1: would be at least several points behind him.

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Speaker 4: Instead, the guy's looking at various.

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Speaker 1: Prison terms, and it's also hurting him with a general electorate.

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Speaker 1: Do you where do you think he would be if

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Speaker 1: he would have just said, you know what, he got me?

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Speaker 3: No, I agree with that. I agree with that two things. One,

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Speaker 3: I agree if he had done that with the presidential election,

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Speaker 3: he would be in a much more strong political position.

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Speaker 3: And if he had, you know, taken COVID more seriously

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Speaker 3: all the way through, I think he would be in

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Speaker 3: a stronger political position. And that's not to say I'm

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Speaker 3: not trying to get into lockdowns or masking or anything,

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Speaker 3: but just it devolved into something because in some sense

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Speaker 3: he was being attacked as being you know, X, Y,

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Speaker 3: and Z, and he lashed out and responded in ways

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Speaker 3: that I think, you know, made it more difficult for

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Speaker 3: the country to approach the serious crisis that was killing

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Speaker 3: lots and lots of people. And so the problem is

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Speaker 3: you just can't separate that from the things that make

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Speaker 3: Trump politically successful. You know, the things that make him

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Speaker 3: successful are also his downfall. It's like a Greek tragedy

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Speaker 3: that plays out every single day on true social now.

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Speaker 3: And so you can't really have I just don't see

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Speaker 3: how you can have one, the one part of Trump

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Speaker 3: without the other part of Trump, which is where again,

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Speaker 3: like a problem with both of these indictments Smith and

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Speaker 3: willis legally and I think just as like a strategy

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Speaker 3: as well, is that it's saying that Donald Trump was acting.

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Speaker 3: I think they're they're taking him as a rational actor.

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Speaker 3: Who you know, when the Secretary of State who's a

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Speaker 3: Republican tells you something, you are like, oh, that is

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Speaker 3: a very good piece of evidence that I lost the election,

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Speaker 3: whereas with Donald Trump, you see over and over again,

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Speaker 3: and people I've talked to say, if he believes anything,

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Speaker 3: it's that he won that presidential election because he had

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Speaker 3: Sidney Powell, Rudy Giuliani and their people chirping in his

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Speaker 3: ear saying stuff, and that's who he chose to believe.

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Speaker 3: He's like a you know, he's a Twitter boomer. He

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Speaker 3: was a Twitter boomer. And so the the other thing

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Speaker 3: I wanted to say, Ryan, is I agree with you

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Speaker 3: completely on that Sidney Powell part about the Georgia voting machine.

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Speaker 3: That is that's in the Fanny Walls indictment, and that

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Speaker 3: is extremely diceing material that looks like it could be

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Speaker 3: a real problem for her. Whether they got access to

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Speaker 3: just like a password and it gave them access to

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Speaker 3: the voting thing. That might be the case, but they

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Speaker 3: knew that they weren't supposed to have it. It sounds

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Speaker 3: to me from the evidence, and we'll see what evidence

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Speaker 3: is presented in court, but it sure looked like they

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Speaker 3: knew they weren't supposed to be entering the voter database

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Speaker 3: from the back end there, and so I think that

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Speaker 3: is a pretty serious part of the indictment. Too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not technically, I guess classified information, but it's

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Speaker 1: the same thing. One of the things that they're charging

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Speaker 1: Julian Assan for is for helping Chelsea Manning kind of

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Speaker 1: cover her tracks in when she was looking through Pentagon

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Speaker 1: files to leak to Wiki leaks. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: if for everybody who talks about two different tiers of justice,

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Speaker 1: we have to remember that too, that if anybody who

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Speaker 1: tries to kind of penetrate an election system without legal

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Speaker 1: access to it is committing a crime like that.

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Speaker 4: It's pretty pretty straightforward.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we can't have people. There's a great episode of

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Speaker 3: Reno nine one one where they try to go in

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Speaker 3: and change votes on a referendum for police. There's a

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Speaker 3: reason we have that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't have.

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Speaker 4: That right country here, right, But.

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Speaker 3: Just briefly, I want to dive into Fanny Willis because

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Speaker 3: she's obviously front and center, as people have said, with

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Speaker 3: the one of the most serious cases, probably the single

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Speaker 3: most serious case against Donald Trump, because it does not

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Speaker 3: involve a presidential part and it's a state it's a

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Speaker 3: series of state charges, and he can't it can't be

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Speaker 3: waved away by a Republican president or a kind hearted

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Speaker 3: democratic president. There's nothing that a president can do to

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Speaker 3: save Donald Trump from these charges, and obviously they're serious

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Speaker 3: in nature. So that Fanny Willis is, if we put

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Speaker 3: the next element up on the screen, A four, she

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Speaker 3: has been The right is exploring Fanny Willis's history, as

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Speaker 3: you know, it's sort of natural in a situation like this.

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Speaker 3: But one thing that's come up, you see, this is

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Speaker 3: from Newsmax. They say she's an activist Democrat and her

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Speaker 3: father was a member of the Black Panthers, which they

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Speaker 3: described their Ryan as you'll enjoy in parentheses, Marxist Leninist

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Speaker 3: black power group. There you go. And so Fanny Wills

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Speaker 3: to sort of come under the microscope, and the Telegraph

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Speaker 3: did a pretty interesting deep dive on her, and I

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Speaker 3: found interesting one quote they have here from a Georgia

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Speaker 3: State University law professor who said she's really a tough

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Speaker 3: on crime liberal, which is kind of a rare bird

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Speaker 3: these days, but I think that's her brand. The Telegraph

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Speaker 3: also notes, by her own admission, miss Willis is a

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Speaker 3: fan of Rico. She has previously used Georgia's expansive racketeering

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Speaker 3: charges to prosecute cheating teachers that's a case that actually

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Speaker 3: got some national headlines at the time. She won eleven

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Speaker 3: convictions and national media attention in relation to the public

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Speaker 3: school test score scandal. As the Telegraph notes there. I

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Speaker 3: think she also had rico charges against young thug and

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Speaker 3: she won. She pursued those charges and I think she

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Speaker 3: won in court now. Devin Franklin, an attorney for the

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Speaker 3: Southern Center for Human Rights who spent twelve years in

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Speaker 3: the Fulton County Public Defender's Office, said that using these

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Speaker 3: laws drives quote, a narrative of violence in Atlanta that's

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Speaker 3: not true, that's not necessarily reflected in the data, and

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Speaker 3: has a tendency to sensationalize the cases. She's bent. Actually

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Speaker 3: most of her career as an assistant DA down in

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Speaker 3: Fulton County. That's, as people know outside of Atlanta. It's

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Speaker 3: the most populous county in Georgia, so obviously a hugely

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Speaker 3: important political center of the state. She she beat a

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Speaker 3: primary fight against her mentor, Paul Howard, who had been

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Speaker 3: Georgia's first black district attorney. And so she comes takes

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Speaker 3: out her mentor and she says she was She actually

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Speaker 3: said her father was a former black panther that comes

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Speaker 3: from her. That's not like some weird digging. But I

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Speaker 3: think that's when you have Newsmax calling her an activist

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Speaker 3: Democrat and then the Telegraph saying she's actually a tough

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Speaker 3: on crime liberal prosecutor. Those are obviously in tension right now.

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Speaker 3: If you're an activist Democrat prosecutor, a lot of people

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Speaker 3: think of you along the lines of like a Chesaboudine

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Speaker 3: or Gascone. But that doesn't seem to be the case

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Speaker 3: with Fanny Wills, who's like, hey, Ricos, let's just have

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Speaker 3: a Rico party. And these things seem to be intentioned

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Speaker 3: so that the picture of Fannie Wills to me, at

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Speaker 3: least as somebody who's not you know, in Georgia following

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Speaker 3: politics for the last couple of decades, that's sort of

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Speaker 3: a muddied picture.

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Speaker 1: They're using activists in a very liberal sense there, because

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Speaker 1: if she were an activist kind of part straight up

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Speaker 1: part as a Democrat, she wouldn't have gone after the teachers'

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Speaker 1: union like she did.

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Speaker 4: That was a really brutal case.

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Speaker 1: Came after several schools that were that she accused of rigging,

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Speaker 1: basically rigging their test scores. I think they were cutting

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Speaker 1: into the packets, and like it was a mess and

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Speaker 1: a really sad case, and it really shine a light

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Speaker 1: on how far a drifts a lot of public schools

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Speaker 1: had gone in Fulton County. And if she were just

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Speaker 1: as straight up kind of partisan Democrat, she would never

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Speaker 1: have taken on that that kind of case, and she

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Speaker 1: certainly wouldn't have done it with the zealousness to bring

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Speaker 1: in Rico, which then allows, to the point of some

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Speaker 1: of her critics, allows you to criminalize some things because

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Speaker 1: they're part of the criminal conspiracy that otherwise wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: criminal acts on their own. And so she but you know,

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Speaker 1: she's she's good at what she does. Like she's got

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Speaker 1: she's got the record to show it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: good for her dad. You know, Black Black Panther, you know,

434
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: the Black Panther Party for Self Defense had you know,

435
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: went in some crazy directions towards the very end, but

436
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: you know, throughout much of its history was you know,

437
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: a real real force for good and empowerment, uh and

438
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: and particularly kind of stitching together civil society elements in

439
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: the black community in the late sixties and early seventies.

440
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: So h yes, but you know, you come after the

441
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: foreign president, You're going to certainly, you know, get get

442
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: the spotlight from you know, not just outlets like Newsmax,

443
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: but everybody.

444
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 4: So you know, I understand where that's coming from.

445
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, although I think any efforts to sort of

446
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 3: turn her into one of the like a Chesaboudine, she's

447
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 3: not going to be successful and ran. Just before we

448
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 3: move to the next topic, I just wanted to mention

449
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 3: again that she has a critic in that Telegraph article,

450
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: which is a really good deep dive, actually saying that

451
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 3: she has a tendency to sensationalize cases, and that is

452
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,640
Speaker 3: definitely if you want to spend ninety eight pages going

453
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 3: through the indictment. I definitely felt like that was a

454
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 3: word that would accurately characterize the indictment itself. But I

455
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 3: wanted to ask you Ryan about Rico just sort of

456
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,960
Speaker 3: in general, as someone who's covered Rico for a while,

457
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: what it means that she's invoking it here given the

458
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 3: history of Rico and mob stuff, et cetera, et cetera.

459
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: Plenty of people have already pointed out the irony that

460
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani is getting slapped with Rico, because you know,

461
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,520
Speaker 1: he very much. You know, rose to prominence using rico

462
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: cases against in particular the mob in New York. And

463
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, if you're going if you're going to have

464
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: a government, you're gonna have a democratic republic where you know,

465
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: power is vested in the people that are elected by

466
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: the populace.

467
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 4: Then you can't have mafias.

468
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: You can't have criminal conspiracies kind of running around outside

469
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 1: the law and getting around the law by saying that, Okay,

470
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: well you don't have you know, you don't have anything

471
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: on us. You know, yes, it is clear that we

472
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: are running drugs, running illegal casinos, uh, you know, running

473
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: sex trafficking and human trafficking operations, trying to overthrow an election, you.

474
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 4: Know, but you actually haven't.

475
00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: You don't have anything specific on us that can that

476
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 1: can you know, pin a serious crime with this, And

477
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: so you end up just slapping a whole bunch of

478
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: misdemeanors together, even though you can prove that it was

479
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: all collectively oriented towards this grand kind of collective conspiracy.

480
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: So uh, to the extent that you can bring those

481
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: laws to bear on, you know, entities that are trying

482
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: to become private governments, and that's that's the interesting kind

483
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: of link between a private gang of people that is

484
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 1: trying to you know, overturn an election and a private

485
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: gang of people that doesn't bother with elections and just

486
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 1: kind of takes over a community by force. That's basically

487
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: the same thing. And that's what a democratic society can have.

488
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: Like we we have established ways that you you know,

489
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: are are able to get into government and we don't

490
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: have mafias like I mean we do.

491
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: And so the you know, RICO is.

492
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: Aimed at making sure that the people have control over

493
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,879
Speaker 1: their own sovereignty. So to me, you know, they can

494
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: absolutely be abused in a lot of different ways and

495
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 1: we need to be on guard for that. But in general,

496
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: I think it's a necessary part of uh, you know,

497
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,639
Speaker 1: the people exercising their own sovereignty.

498
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: That's why Ryan voted for Giuliani in the Republican primary in.

499
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: Two thousand and eight America's mayor.

500
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 3: All right, well, let's move on to Chris Christie in

501
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 3: a new Emerson poll out of New Hampshire taking the

502
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 3: edge over run DeSantis. Check this story out. We can

503
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 3: put the first element up on the screen and I'm

504
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: reading from the hill here. Former New Jersey Governor Chris

505
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 3: Christias for past Florida governor Run DeSantis, and the critical

506
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 3: early presidential primary state of New Hampshire. According to an

507
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,719
Speaker 3: Emerson College survey released Tuesday, Christy leipbrog DeSantis for second

508
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: place in the Granite state, garnering nine percent support. DeSantis's support,

509
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: on the other hand, fell to eight percent from seventeen

510
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 3: percent in March. So check that out. That is a

511
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: nine point decline for DeSantis. Christie's one point lead over

512
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 3: de Santis. But this is actually a good point, and

513
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 3: I'm glad that he'll put this because you don't always

514
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: see this in news coverage. That is within the polls

515
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: plus or minus three point four percent margin of error,

516
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 3: well within the margin of error there, which is pretty important.

517
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: What is still outside of the margin for air from

518
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: the margin of error is that big decline for DeSantis.

519
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 3: There's you cannot you know, math away that giant decline

520
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 3: in the same pole of New Hampshire voters from seventeen

521
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: to nine. That's really really brutal. Now, according to that pole,

522
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 3: Trump still dominates the GOP primary field, as The Hill

523
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 3: puts it, with forty nine percent support. You then have

524
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: Tim Scott at six percent, Doug Bergham and Nikki Haley

525
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 3: at four percent, Ramaswami and Parry Johnson at three percent

526
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 3: and two perspective respectively, and then Mike Pence and Will

527
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: Heard each at one percent support. Now we have also

528
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 3: thirteen percent of voters saying they are undecided, which is

529
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 3: a good chunk, but not enough to make up that

530
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: massive margin between Trump and everyone else. What did you

531
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: make of that, Ryan.

532
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: Well, I heard you mentioning Will Heard earlier in the program.

533
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 1: I think Will is running for president. He has not

534
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: landed with much of a splash so far, but yeah,

535
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: just an incredible you're the spin you're seeing from the

536
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: DeSantis camp is that they really feel like they have,

537
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, clean shot at Iowa. You know that if

538
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: they can, if they and if they can repel themselves

539
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: out of Iowa with a victory, then that can reshape

540
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: their momentum, which which is true, like if you could

541
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: do that, it does do that. But he's got such

542
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: a hill to climb and he's facing such significant headwinds.

543
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: What are they.

544
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: Basing this claim on besides just kind of hope that

545
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: Iowa could have, you know, is a better place for

546
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: them than basically everywhere else where.

547
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: He's you know, you know, getting diffed.

548
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 3: It's a place where you can Yeah, I mean, I

549
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: think their theory is that it's a place where you

550
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 3: can pour resources into and if you do the ground

551
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: game right, then it's the momentum that will translate to

552
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 3: the other states and sort of trickle down campaigning. And

553
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 3: the example is that they go off of their consultant

554
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 3: is Jeff Row who did this with Ted Cruz in

555
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: Iowa back in twenty sixteen. Cruz wins Iowa comes out

556
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 3: of that with a lot of momentum, And I just

557
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 3: again look at that and shake my head and like

558
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: from maybe it's easier to see the forest from the

559
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 3: trees when you're not like when you're a journalist and

560
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: you're looking at this from the outside. But Ted Cruz

561
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: lost great. I'm glad Ted Cruz had a lot of

562
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: momentum and Ted Crews barely beat Beto O'Rourke with the

563
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: same consultant in Texas, And so I just don't it

564
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 3: doesn't inspire if I were a Saintist donor, it wouldn't

565
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 3: inspire a lot of confidence that that was the strategy,

566
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 3: especially since it's Still, when you're looking overall at voters,

567
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: it's such a huge margin. I would understand that if

568
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: it was a much slimmer margin, But given that it's

569
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: such a huge margin, I find that comple lely not persuasive.

570
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 3: Let's show Chris Christy. He's got to be feeling good

571
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 3: right now, because again, when you're looking at Chris Christy

572
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 3: and when he entered the race, it was sort of like, okay, great,

573
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 3: Like Chris Christy's not going to win well if he's

574
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 3: taking nine percent support away from all of the other candidates.

575
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe that's why you have Mike pens in

576
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: New Hampshire at one percent, because you have Chris Christie

577
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: taking nine percent of the vote, and when you have

578
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 3: everyone else sharing, you know, Trump's at forty nine percent

579
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 3: and his next opponent is forty points behind at nine percent.

580
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 3: When you have somebody like Christy eating into the vote,

581
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: then that's a big I mean, that's a big chunk

582
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 3: that would be spread out from other candidates. It's certainly

583
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: not enough to make anything up. But when you're trying

584
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: to get financial support, when you're trying to get momentum,

585
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: media attention, et cetera, et cetera. Christy's taking some of

586
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 3: that up. So let's see how Christy was talking to

587
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: a voter in Iowa just this week.

588
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 5: I didn't do everything that in my mind, in my heart,

589
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 5: I wanted to do, because I was making a political

590
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 5: calculation when you were to suggesting, well, if these people

591
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 5: are so in trench with him, and they're going to

592
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: go to hell and back with them, and you maybe

593
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 5: need them to vote for you at some point, maybe

594
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 5: you should just back off a little bit. Let me

595
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 5: tell you. I tried it. It doesn't work. And when

596
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 5: he says the stuff he said about me yesterday, don't

597
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 5: going to bother you for a minute.

598
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: I don't care, okay, right, And that's a good flavor

599
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: of how Christy is approaching the Trump issue with voters.

600
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: Is that how he's getting to nine percent.

601
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: I guess it's just such an interesting way to speak.

602
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: I tried it and it didn't work. It's not he's

603
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: not saying it was wrong. You know, I went against

604
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: my moral principles, and I realized that what I was

605
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: doing was compromised, and so you know, damn it, I'm

606
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: just gonna speak truth and let the chips fall. They

607
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: were he's just laying it out in a purely pragmatic way.

608
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 3: Just say I was a piece of garbage.

609
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: I tried appeasing him except because I thought it would

610
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: benefit me politically, and it didn't.

611
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 4: It hurt me, and so I'm gonna now.

612
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: Take a different approach to try to benefit myself politically.

613
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: That's such a fascinating attempt to speak truth, because I

614
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: do believe him, like I actually think he is telling

615
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: the truth, but it's not a very kind of attractive

616
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: or appealing truth about what it says about what's underneath there.

617
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: Because what he's saying, not even implicitly, but explicitly, is

618
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: that if appeasing Trump had benefited him politically, in other words,

619
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: if he hadn't prosecuted Jared Kushner's father and created a

620
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: lifelong enemy in Jared Kushner, then he would continue to

621
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: violate his principles and appease Trump as long as it,

622
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, benefited Christie politically. And so I get it,

623
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: that's true, that's how he feels, But I don't quite

624
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it sounds the way he says it.

625
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 4: It sounds like he's being honest with people.

626
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: But what he's saying to people, is that I tried

627
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: lying to you and it didn't work for me, So

628
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: now I'm going to try something different, see if that works.

629
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's exactly what he's doing. No, that's a

630
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 3: great way to put it. He's like, I was lying

631
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 3: to you then, but believe me, I wouldn't do that

632
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: now I've learned that that it didn't work bad, right.

633
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 4: Right, if it worked, I would do it like. That's

634
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 4: the other thing he's saying.

635
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah, that's exactly what he's saying. And again,

636
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: I think, because I was actually thinking about this morning,

637
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 3: I was like, Christy's a really shrewd politician. Like what

638
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: he did in New Jersey. He like, on a political level,

639
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 3: he had some strategic innovations and successes that I think

640
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: are worth noting just from a political point of view.

641
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 3: That doesn't, of course translate into like being a moral stalwart,

642
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 3: but he at least like kind of understands the game.

643
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,959
Speaker 3: And I wonder if he sees Donald Trump being one

644
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 3: of the few people in American politics who sort of

645
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: leveled with voters, at least purportedly or is ostensibly leveled

646
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: with voters and said, listen, I know the system because

647
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: I've been a part of the system, and let me

648
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 3: tell you it's bad. I wonder if Christy sees that

649
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 3: from Trump, sees that it's been successful with voters, and

650
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: thinks that he can do it. I still don't think

651
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: Chris Christy thinks he's going to win the Republican primary.

652
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: I think he's having a lot of fun sort of

653
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 3: blowing it up, blowing up Donald Trump, if you know. Yeah,

654
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 3: I think it feels like cathartic for him to be

655
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 3: out there just trashing Trump with people who might otherwise

656
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 3: support him. And I think it's kind of fun for

657
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:21,840
Speaker 3: him too, to muck it up for rond De Santis

658
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 3: and everyone else, which, by the way, could be that

659
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 3: could be something that actually just ends up handing the

660
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: nomination to Donald Trump. And I don't know that Chris

661
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: Christie genuinely cares that it goes to Donald Trump, because

662
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: if this is if this is Chris Christie's pitch to voters.

663
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 3: If anything, it's interesting that he's at nine and Mike

664
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 3: Pence in this poll is at like what one percent,

665
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 3: because Mike Pence has the strongest argument that he stood

666
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 3: up to Donald Trump on a moral level. On January sixth.

667
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 3: I mean that is like Mike Pence's bread and butter

668
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 3: that he's leaned into and that's his pitch. Is that,

669
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 3: like listen, at a certain point I had to say no,

670
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: So that Chris Christy is more successfully making that pitch

671
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 3: in New Hampshire not entirely surprising because he's not an

672
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 3: evangelical conservative and he's more of like a Northeastern you know,

673
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: sort of Maverick Republican than Mike Pence's, but it's still

674
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 3: pretty interesting that like that's Pence's thing and Christy is

675
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: getting into that lane.

676
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, you make an interesting point that, you know, Trump

677
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: has been successful by being kind of a flagrant and

678
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: craven and completely open narcissist, that the politics of just

679
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: pure self interest and expressing your pure self interest has

680
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 1: an authenticity to it that resonated with people. Whether that's

681
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: just Trump or whether that can be kind of broadened

682
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: out to other people like Christie is an interesting question.

683
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: So maybe Christy is seeing that that, Like, look, Trump

684
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: was just completely open about his cravenness and people liked it.

685
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: People felt like it was raw, it was He's just

686
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: being straight with them, And so maybe Christie's trying to

687
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: follow him in that past.

688
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 3: Before we run, I want to put B three up

689
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 3: on the screen. I think this is one of the

690
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: more interesting takeaways from that Emerson poll. You see, the

691
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 3: most important issue that New Hampshire voters say it is

692
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: on their mind is the economy. So thirty two percent

693
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,720
Speaker 3: said economy, jobs, inflation, and taxing taxes. Twenty one percent,

694
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: in a very similar vein, said housing affordability. Twelve percent

695
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 3: said threats to democracy. Then you get to healthcare, abortion, access, education, immigration, crime,

696
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 3: something else, each between eight and five percent. But if

697
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: you're looking at the two biggest ones, so more than

698
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 3: fifty percent of voters in New Hampshire say that their

699
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 3: top issue is the economy or housing. And I think

700
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 3: of those in the pretty much in the same vein,

701
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 3: because obviously one affects the other that I don't know

702
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: what answer Republicans have. I never hear Republicans talking about

703
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: the issue of housing affordability ever. I mean, that is

704
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 3: just not something There are two things that voters care

705
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: about a lot that Republicans never talk about, and housing

706
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 3: and healthcare. It's not just that they don't seem to

707
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 3: have a policy. Answer is that they aren't even talking

708
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 3: about it. And you know, I think Democrats have their

709
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 3: own issues that they don't talk about as well. But

710
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 3: for Republicans looking at that, looking at how important housing is,

711
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: they needed if they don't want to have success in

712
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: a general election, not just a primary, they need an

713
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: answer to that.

714
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Democrats at least occasionally talk about it. They

715
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: had a gigantic housing affordability piece of Build Back Better,

716
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 1: which was in the range of several hundred billion dollars,

717
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: which would have been you know, genuinely important from a

718
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: policy on a policy level, it immediately got dropped when

719
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: Mansion set He's only doing you know X on the

720
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: bottom line. So at least they talk about it. But

721
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: you're right, it is to have one in five New

722
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: nsial voters saying that that's their top issue and to

723
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: basically have no national conversation about any type of a

724
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: federal legislation or federal approach to it is rather striking

725
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: because housing is becoming the real kind of dividing question

726
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: between the haves and the have nots, and it is

727
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: it is becoming the thing that is just you know,

728
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: making people feel so bleak about their about their future

729
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: because even as you know, consumer prices start to level out,

730
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 1: you know, if you're still you're still paying jacked up

731
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 1: rents over from the last couple of years, you know,

732
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: you're that means you're still falling behind relative to a

733
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: couple couple years ago, even as your wages are going up.

734
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a huge, huge problem for both parties.

735
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 1: But you're right, Republicans are just completely nowhere on that

736
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: on that question. And it's interesting that it's in New

737
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: Hampshire or not. It's not a state you typically associate

738
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: with kind of out of control rents.

739
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's almost.

740
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 4: Mass Massachusetts people.

741
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 1: I guess flooding in there, probably driving up in New

742
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 1: Yorkers and others just kind of probably driving up home prices.

743
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not like they're building a lot.

744
00:38:58,000 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 3: And I'll just also mention before we wrap that last

745
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 3: we were talking about credit card delinquencies starting to spike.

746
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 3: You're seeing the same thing with auto loane delinquencies. You're

747
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 3: not seeing the same thing with mortgage delinquencies. But the

748
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: economy is on shaky ground right now. And that's actually

749
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 3: a good transition into our next topic, which is that

750
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 3: Kevin McCarthy this week on a conference call with Republicans,

751
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: said actually that he might go with a short term

752
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: solution of funding the government in the fall, so meaning

753
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 3: he would be potentially supportive of a continuing resolution in

754
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,399
Speaker 3: September that kind of kicks the can into December when

755
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 3: it comes to funding the government. All this is to

756
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 3: say that the threat of a government shut down is

757
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: very real going into the fall, so real that Republicans

758
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: are obviously already starting to talk like this. So let's

759
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 3: run a clip here from Jeff Jackson, Democrat from North Carolina,

760
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: who Ryan and I once misidentified as a Republican for

761
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: like an entire segment. I think our brains were broken

762
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 3: that day. But let's roll Jeff Jackson, Democrat from North Carolina,

763
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: weighing in on the potentiality of a shutdown.

764
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 6: Here.

765
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 7: This man just came up to me at the airport

766
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 7: and goes, hey, are you jack Jefferson. I said that's

767
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 7: pretty close.

768
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 4: Sure.

769
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 7: He said, I got a question for you. Do you

770
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 7: think we're going to have a government shut down this year?

771
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,479
Speaker 7: And I said probably yes. He asked why, and here's

772
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 7: what I told him. The budget for the federal government

773
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 7: runs out on the last day of September, passing a

774
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 7: new budget is actually passing twelve separate bills, and in

775
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 7: the House we've passed one. The other eleven bills haven't

776
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 7: even come to a vote. But that's not because of

777
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 7: Republicans versus Democrats. It's because there's an internal fight within

778
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 7: the majority party about spending, but also whether to add

779
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 7: a bunch of cultural issues like new restrictions on abortion,

780
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 7: which is the official story. But here's what's really happening.

781
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 7: This isn't about the budget. In the House, You've got

782
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 7: a group of folks in the right flank who want

783
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 7: to shut down the government. So they're asking for things

784
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 7: they know everyone else in their party will say no to.

785
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 3: Ah. Okay, so I think that's half right. I think

786
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 3: he's right about the internal dynamics. But I also when

787
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 3: you talk to people on the Hill and the sort

788
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 3: of freedom caucus arena, it's not that they want to

789
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 3: shut down the government like they just love the idea

790
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 3: of shutting down the government. Republicans know politically they always

791
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 3: get blamed for that. It is rarely good. Even if

792
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: you're in a red district, it's rarely good for you

793
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: to shut down the government. That said, they're also facing

794
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: an immense amount of pressure from their base, and they

795
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: look at again, this is their perspective, what's happening in

796
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 3: the country, and say, we need to use our power.

797
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 3: If we have a majority in the House and we

798
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: don't push as hard as we possibly can by driving

799
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 3: a taking a really hard line on defunding X, Y

800
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 3: and Z, defunding DEI, CRT, whatever it is, then we're

801
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: not using our power at all. If we're not negotiating

802
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 3: for the sake of just going along to get along,

803
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 3: then we're not going to get any wins. And we

804
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: saw them find success with us in the speaker battle.

805
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 3: They used a whole lot of wins out of Kevin McCarthy.

806
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: They felt like they were stabbed in the back a

807
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: little bit by McCarthy in the bill that was passed

808
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: in the spring that they felt, you know, the funding

809
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 3: bill from the spring. They felt not great about what

810
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: happened with that. They thought that they could have kept pushing.

811
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 3: But even then they still got some successes. They still

812
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: squeezed some wins out of McCarthy in Republican leadership. In

813
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: that case, Acxios had the story from the Republican Conference call,

814
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 3: we could put C two up on the screen about

815
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 3: what McCarthy said himself. He's saying that according to Axios,

816
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 3: he wouldn't do a CR past early December. So that

817
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 3: is according to four sources on the call, So that

818
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: CR would if you have the government deadline as September

819
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 3: thirtieth for funding, he wouldn't pass a continuing resolution that

820
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 3: would fund it after early December. So that's kicking the

821
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 3: can for like a few months. Ralph Norman, Republican from

822
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 3: North Carolina said, right now, I would say know about

823
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: the CR. He would says he's absolutely willing to force

824
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 3: a government shut down. And then Bob Good of Virginia said,

825
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 3: if we have a temporary shutdown of the government, what's

826
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 3: the risk of concern about that happening? We shouldn't implement

827
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 3: bad policy to avoid that. And that's what Jeff Jackson

828
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 3: is talking about Ryan, right, is that attitude of saying, like,

829
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 3: wellhy cost benefit here, it's you know, at a certain

830
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 3: we can push far enough that it won't hurt us.

831
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: Basically, the government shutdowns are sort of becoming an anger

832
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: release valve for factions within the government. You know, they're elected,

833
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: they have you know, significant basis of power.

834
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 4: But they don't have a majority.

835
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,959
Speaker 1: They don't have you know, the Freedom Caucus obviously doesn't

836
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: even remotely have a majority in the House of Representatives.

837
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: Democrats control the House, Democrats control the White House, but

838
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: they have angry constituents who you know, want them to

839
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: post some ws And so the only thing that's kind

840
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 1: of left, only two things that are left are some

841
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: wins around the rules package set that aside.

842
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 4: They got.

843
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: They got some of those, they caused like a fort

844
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: at Ay fight. But then after that, you can default

845
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 1: on the government debt or you can shut the government down.

846
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 4: You can't really default on.

847
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: The government debt, as we learned in the last fight,

848
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: because nobody has the stomach for it.

849
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 4: Because the big.

850
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: Money people and the small folks, your car dealers, everybody

851
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: in the district is calling you and like, look, do

852
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,839
Speaker 1: not default on the government, Like do not seize up

853
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: the global financial system, Like it's not it's not worth

854
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: it for what.

855
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 4: And so they they caved on that.

856
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: And I thought that they would fight a little bit

857
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 1: longer frankly than they did on that. But it became

858
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: so clear that the risk was so great and the

859
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: chance of them winning whatever they hope they were going

860
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 1: to win was so little that they kind of you know,

861
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: folded and moved on, and Biden kind of.

862
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 4: Did out maneuver them.

863
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: And so now that leaves them with the government shut down,

864
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: and so to me, it's almost as if they have

865
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 1: to shut the government down just to save face. And

866
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: I think McCarthy has to punt to December because right

867
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: now it's just too embarrassing. Like they said, we're going

868
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 1: to pass all twelve of our appropriations bills, and as

869
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: Jackson said, they've only done one so far. And so

870
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: when you when the government is shutting down because you

871
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 1: haven't done your homework or what looks like you haven't

872
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: done your homework, then it's even more humiliating for you

873
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: because then it's you know, political and ideological and also

874
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: a competence problem because then all Democrats have to say

875
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: is like you didn't you didn't pass anything yet. So

876
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: at least pushing to December theoretically gives them the possibility

877
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: to actually get these these appropriations bills together. Whether they

878
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: can do that or not is not obvious, Like this

879
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: is this is harder stuff than you would think, ironically,

880
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: because it's it shouldn't be hard because it's not going

881
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: to become law, Like they're just writing bills that are

882
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: messaging documents, like there's no there's no world in which

883
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: Joe Biden is signing off on whatever, just straight up

884
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: whatever House Republicans come up with. There's no world in

885
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,840
Speaker 1: which it gets through the Senate, right, so it really

886
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,879
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to anybody's actual daily lives what's in the built.

887
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: Yet it's still very hard to get two hundred and

888
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: eighteen votes on twelve different appropriations bill. So I think

889
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: they're hoping, like, we can punt this till December and

890
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: then we'll have our work done. Then we'll have a shutdown.

891
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: Freedom Caucus can do, you know, do what Jackson was saying.

892
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: They can get a lot of interviews, they can show

893
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,879
Speaker 1: that they did everything they could. But at some point

894
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: they're going to have to bow to the reality that

895
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 1: they don't control the House. And even if they kind

896
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: of control the fate of the Speaker and they don't

897
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 1: control the Senate, they don't control the White House.

898
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 4: And so that's where I think.

899
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: So I think we'll get who knows, a couple weeks

900
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: of a shutdown, maybe longer's what's your guests as to

901
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: how this unfolds.

902
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 3: Well, that's the thing, right, so finding agreement for these things,

903
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 3: for these appropriations bill. So I think they have like

904
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 3: eleven appropriation bill they passed one of a dozen of them,

905
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: and they're in session. They come back September twelfth, so

906
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 3: it's recess month, and that's why here in DC things

907
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 3: are pretty dead and always are. In August, they're in

908
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 3: session twelve days. That's like one appropriations bill a day.

909
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: It's not impossible, but if you don't agree on which

910
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 3: ones to pass, that means you have to do a

911
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 3: lot of negotiating between now and then and in those

912
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: just twelve days that you're in session. So it makes

913
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: sense for McCarthy's perspective to do a short term like

914
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: stop gap measure for the next couple of months. Figure

915
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 3: out what they're going to agree on or disagree on

916
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: when it comes to funding. Everyone sort of find their place,

917
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,280
Speaker 3: which buttons that they're actually going to push in this theater.

918
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 3: Because again Republicans know they don't control the Senate or

919
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 3: the White House. But to your point, Ryan, the question

920
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 3: is whether they control the speaker, and they have shown

921
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: that it's not so much they control the speaker, and

922
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 3: it's not that the speaker controls them, it's that they've

923
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 3: actually had this relationship where it's a push and pull

924
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: that can explain and either of their faces more in

925
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: McCarthy's face at any given moment, which is why he's

926
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 3: negotiated with them. I think so he understands how fragile

927
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 3: the relationship is and that can blow up at any moment.

928
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 3: So it does make sense to sort of find consensus

929
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 3: on the appropriation bills and then get to long term

930
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 3: government funding. We have a couple more reactions from the Hill.

931
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 3: We can put C three up on the screen. This

932
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 3: is Tony Gonzalez with his read of the situation. I

933
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 3: just got off a member call. It's clear President Biden,

934
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 3: Speaker McCarthy want a government shutdown. So that's what Congress

935
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 3: will do after we return in September. This is a

936
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 3: member of Congress saying, quote, plan accordingly because he expects, frankly,

937
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 3: the government to shut down based on all of these conversations,

938
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: internal conversations that have been happening that both Biden and

939
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 3: McCarthy see a shutdown as something that is in some

940
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: sense politically helpful. I don't think that's the case with

941
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 3: Kevin McCarthy. I do think it's the case with President Biden.

942
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 3: Democrats again know that if the government shuts down, they

943
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 3: have one huge advantage, and that is the media, which

944
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 3: will generally take their side. And sometimes that's fair. Sometimes

945
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 3: Republicans do want a government shutdown, and it makes sense

946
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 3: for the media to blame Republicans because Republicans are saying, yes,

947
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: blame us. But in some cases that's not exactly how

948
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 3: it works out. We can put C four up on

949
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 3: the screen. This is more from the Senate side. This

950
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 3: is Schumer, in a press call, said he spoke with

951
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 3: McCarthy at the end of July on need for CR. Quote,

952
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: I thought it was a good thing that he recognized

953
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 3: that we need to see r I'm supportive of that.

954
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: And then Schumer says, I was glad that Speaker McCarthy

955
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 3: had mentioned publicly the need for a CR. If we

956
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 3: do this in a bipartisan way, I'm confident we can

957
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 3: avoid a government shutdown. If the House Republicans and the

958
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 3: Freedom Caucus insists on doing this partisan so extreme and

959
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 3: gets no Democratic votes, they're heading us towards a shutdown.

960
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 3: That's from reporter Mika Solmer. So, Ryan, what do you

961
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 3: make of Schumer's comments there?

962
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 4: Right?

963
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: And the problem Schumer wants to make sure that Republicans

964
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 1: get the blame for any shut down. So he's going

965
00:49:58,239 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: to say, look, yeah, whatever, you guys, If you guys

966
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: can figure something out, we're here. We're here for you,

967
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: we'll do a cr And I think we spend a

968
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,320
Speaker 1: lot of time, you know, talking about the Freedom Caucus,

969
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: but just as important are the quote unquote moderate members

970
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 1: of the Republican conference, which are to think of, yeah,

971
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: like a Gonzales and people who won districts that Biden

972
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 1: either carried or or that Biden was very close to. Uh,

973
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: those are districts that are becoming even tougher for Republicans

974
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 1: because of you know the activism around you know, codifying

975
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: roll V wages. So you're going to have a huge

976
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 1: turnout in those kind of centric in those swing districts.

977
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: And so if the Freedom Caucus gets everything at once

978
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: in these appropriations bills, which again will not become law,

979
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: they're just kind of messaging documents, Democrats then have the

980
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: ability to you know, pick through this entire budget that

981
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: Republicans just approved and find things that are unpopular in

982
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: it and hammer away at these vulnerable Republicans in these

983
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: swing districts. And so for those Republicans who are up,

984
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 1: who are facing serious re elections, they're like, why are

985
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: you making us do this? Like, why are you making

986
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 1: us take a difficult vote on you know, a bunch

987
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: to let's say, much tougher abortion restrictions.

988
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 4: Or whatever it is.

989
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: That's not that's going to hurt us back in our district,

990
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 1: and that isn't actually going to become law, and it's

991
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: just going to like be a step towards a government shutdown,

992
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: like what like what is the political upside for me here?

993
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: And it makes them furious that they have to deal

994
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 1: with this, and you're going to start to see you know,

995
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 1: people like Gonzales kind of speaking out as we get

996
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: closer this again, you know, firing back at the freedom calls,

997
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: and the freedom clock is firing back at them, you know,

998
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: calling them rhinos or whatever the whatever drama we're going

999
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: to see unfold. But that that's that, I think is

1000
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: a scenario that Schumer's happy to see unfold. And all

1001
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: the while he'll be saying, look here we are, We're

1002
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:55,879
Speaker 1: ready to do a cr We don't want, we don't

1003
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,240
Speaker 1: want a government shutdown.

1004
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 4: Uh, but it's up to you guys.

1005
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 3: No, I agree. I think it's a pretty early but

1006
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 3: predictable kind of preview of the messaging strategy, which is

1007
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 3: very similar to what we've seen from both sides going

1008
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 3: back to like twenty fourteen, maybe even earlier than that.

1009
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: Let's move on to Ecuador. Very serious tragic news out

1010
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 3: of Ecuador, and roughly a month there have been three

1011
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 3: political assassinations. We talked a little bit about the assassination

1012
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 3: of a major presidential candidate last week, but again another

1013
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,279
Speaker 3: political leader was assassinated in Ecuador on Monday. That would

1014
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: be Pedro Briones. They have, you know, they have presidential

1015
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 3: elections happening this Sunday, So a special presidential election is

1016
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 3: happening this Sunday. Pedro Briones is a member of the

1017
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 3: party of the front run of former president Rafael Korea

1018
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 3: So and the front runner in this special presidential election

1019
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 3: is Luisa Gonzalez from the same party. So that's violence

1020
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 3: across the spectrum in Ecuador. And one thing I want

1021
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 3: to mention before we get into that. A lot of

1022
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 3: times when you see, you know, the former Prime Minister

1023
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 3: of Japan was assassinated tragically last summer shinzo Abe. A

1024
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: lot of times when we talk about political assassinate assassinations,

1025
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 3: it's not connected to wider trends of violence throughout the

1026
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 3: country and Ecuador, it absolutely is. So this is from

1027
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 3: the Associated Press. The country's National Police tallied three thousand,

1028
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 3: five hundred and sixty eight violent deaths in the first

1029
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: six months of this year, far more than the twenty

1030
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 3: forty two reported during the same period in twenty twenty two,

1031
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 3: is a huge increase. That year ended with forty six

1032
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 3: hundred violent deaths, which was the country's highest in history

1033
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 3: and double the total in twenty twenty one. Ryan. One

1034
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,399
Speaker 3: other thing I want to mention is that a lot

1035
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 3: of especially people of my fellow conservatives in the United States,

1036
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: Ecuadorians are rushing the southern border at the US in

1037
00:53:54,920 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 3: like huge numbers, extensively record numbers flooding upwards for some

1038
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 3: good reasons, and a lot of the messaging you hear

1039
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 3: from conservatives often is well, you know, fix your own

1040
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 3: country first, then come up here. Our country is directly

1041
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 3: tied to the violence happening in Ecuador right now. That

1042
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 3: is pushing people up to our border. And that's because

1043
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 3: a lot of the violence, the political violence in Ecuador

1044
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: is connected to Sinaloa, is connected to Jalisco, and these

1045
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: cartels are ballooning as a result of US policy, whether

1046
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 3: it's US drug policy, whether it's US border policy. Our

1047
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 3: policies are responsible in a big part for the explosion

1048
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 3: in Jalisco and Sinaloa, which are now destabilizing countries like Ecuador,

1049
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 3: which borders Columbia. Vice reports some forty five percent of

1050
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 3: Colombian cocaine is going through Ecuador now that has Ecuador

1051
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 3: has been and is There's a great Vice report in

1052
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 3: April that I mentioned it has been obviously borders Columbia,

1053
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 3: so cocaine has gone through Ecuador for a long time.

1054
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,799
Speaker 3: But they say, if it was once a highway, it's

1055
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:01,120
Speaker 3: now a super highway. That's the quote from the Vice

1056
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 3: report that I thought put it really, Well, what do

1057
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 3: you make of this? Ryan?

1058
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 1: You know, I think you're saying, well, the we don't

1059
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 1: know exactly who was involved yet with all of these assassinations,

1060
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 1: but it does appear that they're kind of narco trafficker related,

1061
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: that there's some type of kind of Bartel situation. The

1062
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 1: presidential candidate was very much known as one of these

1063
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: kind of anti corruption fighters, you know's going to go

1064
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: after the cartels.

1065
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 4: He was. He was assassinated even though he had a

1066
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 4: you know.

1067
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: In public after a rally in Kido, even though he

1068
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: had a security detail kind of all completely surrounding him.

1069
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 4: They assassinated him anyway.

1070
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 1: And so you're right that the size of these cartels

1071
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:48,400
Speaker 1: UH and their access to weapons and their ability to

1072
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: kind of dominate violence is producing a lot of this

1073
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:54,520
Speaker 1: violence and instability that is then making you know, economic

1074
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: development impossible and then is producing these massive kind of

1075
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: outflows of migration. It's not as if the Ecuadorians desperately

1076
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: want to live in the United States, like they know,

1077
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: the vast majority of them would prefer to live in Ecuador,

1078
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,239
Speaker 1: but the a narco situation is making it untenable for

1079
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: so many of them. And you know, our our war

1080
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: on drugs, like you said, is the is the driving

1081
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: cause of that. And to put this in context, we

1082
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 1: can put the next next element up. In a couple

1083
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: of days, believe it's on the twentieth, there will be

1084
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: a presidential election in Guatemala as well. That this, this

1085
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:36,439
Speaker 1: one's this one's wild, and not just because the left

1086
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: lefty candidate is named Bernie Bernardo Alvaro, who is actually

1087
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: the grandson of the first Guatemala's first democratic, democratically elected

1088
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: president from the forties.

1089
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 4: Uh.

1090
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: He was not even invited to participate in the presidential

1091
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: debates because he was considered of such an.

1092
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 4: Also ran candidate.

1093
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: Yet he finished second in the in the run in

1094
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 1: the first around of voting, which puts him into the

1095
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: runoff against a right wing kind of former first Lady

1096
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: who's who's publicly saying that if she's elected, she's doing

1097
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 1: a Boukelly style El Salvador crackdown. She said, you know,

1098
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: her quote is something like, you know, human rights are

1099
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: for victims, not for you know, not for people that

1100
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: are victimizing them. And so she's she's really, you know,

1101
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: really threatening this massive crackdown. Bernie, though, is if the

1102
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: polls are going to be believed up two to one

1103
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 1: against him, and this is so this is a kind

1104
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: of social democrat, left left wing and an anti anti

1105
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: corruption populist candidate who's dominating the kind of tough on

1106
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: crime I'm going to be a bou Kelly style. But

1107
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: now he's of course saying he's also going to be

1108
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 1: tough on crime. But interestingly, he's not saying I'm going

1109
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: after the little guys.

1110
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 4: He's saying, I'm going to break up the pharmaceutical.

1111
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: Companies, I'm going to break up the monopolies to control

1112
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: the telecommunications. I'm going to I'm going to make sure

1113
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: that the prisons are become uh, you know, places that

1114
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 1: are actually safe once again, because that's a that's a

1115
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 1: problem in Ecuador as well as Guate Malave. It the

1116
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 1: criminal justice system can't really function because even if you're

1117
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: able to arrest, prosecute, and imprison gang leaders, once you

1118
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: put them in prison, the gangs completely run the prison

1119
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: and they become just kind of recreation areas that are

1120
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: just controlled by those cartels or by the.

1121
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 3: Gangs, which is a huge problem in Ecuador.

1122
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: Right Exactly you have all the and so then you

1123
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: have riots and you have the trafficking operations just continue

1124
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: to function just out of the prison. So if you

1125
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: know that's you know, that's not a that's not a

1126
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: way to run any type of civil society. You're you're

1127
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 1: just at that point you've basically seated, you know, government

1128
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: power over to private actors. And so you know, he's

1129
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: saying that he's going to crack down in that sense,

1130
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: but he's not going to do a Boo Kelly style

1131
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 1: thing where he just pretends that human rights don't exist anymore.

1132
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: And you have you know, they tried, the prosecutors tried

1133
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: to throw him off the ballot, and it had to

1134
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: go all the way to Guatemala's High court say no, no, no,

1135
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: the guy's in the runoffs, like you have to let

1136
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: him in. You haven't heard much at all from the

1137
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: United States on this question of Guatemala. They vaguely said,

1138
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: you know, we support you know, there ought to be

1139
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: democracy and everybody should follow the rules. But you know,

1140
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: if that if Democrats, Republicans the United States are serious

1141
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,479
Speaker 1: about root causes, that's the thing they love to talk about,

1142
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 1: root causes, then you know a guy who has you know,

1143
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,240
Speaker 1: a mandate from the people on a social democratic platform

1144
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 1: saying that he's going to redevelop, you know, the economy

1145
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: of Guatemala and take on the private gangsters. You know,

1146
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: ought to have the support of all good people who

1147
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: are making these kind of root cause arguments if they

1148
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: actually mean them. But that also means allowing Guatemala to

1149
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: have some sovereignty rather than you know, having it continue

1150
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: to be a vassal state of the United States. So

1151
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: both of these elections are going to be interesting. But

1152
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: to your point, every you know, as these countries continue

1153
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: to be unstable, the situation the border is going to

1154
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: continue to be a crisis for whatever administration is in power,

1155
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: no matter what we do with that board.

1156
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is what drives me crazy. I understand tackling

1157
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 3: the root causes. I think that's probably the most important

1158
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 3: thing to do, and drug policy plays a role in that,

1159
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 3: but so to does our border policy. And that's because

1160
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 3: you know, you and I disagree on this, Ryan, and

1161
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 3: that's fine. But what the establishment Democratic Party does and

1162
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 3: the establishment Republican Party does is keep things sort of

1163
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 3: muddled to virtue signal and import cheap labor that they

1164
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 3: benefit from. And so you know, you go in one

1165
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 3: direction or the other. I think there's a Obviously, as

1166
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 3: a conservative, I think there's a pretty strong argument that

1167
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 3: you know, we need a clear asylum policy that is

1168
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 3: not being you know, over overwhelmed by what they're doing

1169
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 3: with CBP one at the border and what they're doing

1170
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 3: with you know, just basically kicking trial dates a couple

1171
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 3: of years down the road, letting people in and then

1172
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,080
Speaker 3: disappearing into sanctuary cities at the same time. Even from

1173
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: the left perspective, if it was just let's basically open

1174
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 3: up the border, that does starve cartels of their ability

1175
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: to smuggle human beings, and you would need cooperation for

1176
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,680
Speaker 3: Mexico and other places. But basically what I'm saying is

1177
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 3: that you can go in either direction. You can have

1178
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 3: a much more open border or a much more closed border.

1179
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 3: But what we have right now is an establishment that

1180
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 3: wants to you know, say they have both depending on

1181
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 3: what their audience is. And it has completely destabilized not

1182
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 3: just our country, but it is having a massive effect

1183
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 3: on these countries that are just south of US, smaller,

1184
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 3: already less stable for a lot of different reasons, some

1185
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 3: of which directly go back to US as well. And

1186
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 3: so our border policy, it's not just our drug policy,

1187
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 3: it's also our border policy, whether you go in one

1188
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 3: direction or the other, is having an utterly destabilizing effect

1189
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 3: on these countries. And in the same way that the

1190
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 3: Biden administration held tried to hold Haiti hostage, Haitian democracy

1191
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 3: as they like to talk about hostage to their border policy,

1192
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,720
Speaker 3: which we saw and we've covered here. These policies are

1193
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 3: allowing cartels to grow into multi billion dollar multinational corporations

1194
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,640
Speaker 3: essentially that have also government power, and that they've been

1195
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 3: seated like land and territory. And that is not just

1196
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 3: going to affect Central America, South America, it's going to

1197
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 3: start affecting the entire world. It's already having acute effects

1198
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 3: obviously in these regions, but it's spiraling in a really

1199
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 3: bad direction in ways that we don't seem prepared at

1200
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 3: all to deal with.

1201
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: And I think you're not going to solve any of

1202
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: these problems unless you do something about the cocaine trade.

1203
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is you would really

1204
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 1: need some type of NAFTA and staff to bring together

1205
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 1: South America and Central America, North America and come up

1206
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: with a way to just straight up legalize and regulate

1207
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: the cocaine trade, like we have tried this war on drugs,

1208
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: where we're, you know, just funneling money through these different

1209
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: corrupt systems and it doesn't do anything about the flow

1210
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: of cocaine, and it just props up these these vicious cartels,

1211
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 1: You're still even if you did that, you'd still have

1212
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 1: problems with the cartels, you'd have human trafficking, you'd have whatever.

1213
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 4: Bitcoin.

1214
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 1: You know, they're they're going to find ways to like

1215
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:36,680
Speaker 1: operate criminally. But if you take out some of the

1216
01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 1: biggest revenue drivers for them, you know, then what they

1217
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 1: end up doing is marginal rather than completely dominating in

1218
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: entire economies. And I don't know exactly what that regulatory

1219
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: regime would look like, but if we don't do something

1220
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 1: like that, we're we're just going to have you endless

1221
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: cycles of violence. And also, you know, from a pain

1222
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,080
Speaker 1: user perspective, at this point, you're you're get you're getting

1223
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: a lot of fentanyl getting mixed in uh with with

1224
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 1: different drug products, and people people dying who aren't you know,

1225
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,439
Speaker 1: out out at a club think that thinking they're doing

1226
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 1: a little bump of cocaine. Instead it's you know, laced

1227
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: with fentanyl and they're and they're overdosing and dying like

1228
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 1: that's you know, that that's not.

1229
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 4: An end result that anybody wants either.

1230
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: So it's not like anybody is really talking seriously about that.

1231
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 1: But I but if we actually want to deal seriously

1232
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: with the issue.

1233
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 4: I think that's that's really has to be part of

1234
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:34,680
Speaker 4: the solution.

1235
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 3: All right. Well, revelations from Michael Orr of Blindside and

1236
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:43,640
Speaker 3: then NFL fame have really rocked the country. Uh, they're

1237
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:47,440
Speaker 3: they're pretty brutal towards the family that famously, as was

1238
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 3: documented in the blind Side played by Sandra Bullock and

1239
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 3: Tim McGraw, u took him in. Allegations actually though that

1240
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 3: the conservatorship, which was rather than an adoption. So there's

1241
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 3: some questions here about whether the conservatorship that Michael Orr

1242
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 3: was kind of pushed into allegedly by the family as

1243
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 3: opposed to an adoption, was a in and of itself

1244
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 3: a questionable move. He always thought that he was adopted.

1245
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:16,440
Speaker 3: It turns out, according to allegations he's made in a

1246
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 3: new lawsuit, that may not be the case. Let's actually

1247
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 3: start with this. You can put the tear sheet up

1248
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,320
Speaker 3: on the screen. This is a New York Times coverage.

1249
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 3: He says that in the this is the headline of

1250
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 3: the New York Times, that he was quote conned with

1251
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 3: a promise of adoption. It now appears that it was

1252
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 3: a conservatorship, and he's making allegations that the family set

1253
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 3: up this conservatorship basically to profit off of him in

1254
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,840
Speaker 3: ways that he would not profit himself. That's the allegation

1255
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 3: that Michael Orr has made extremely sad obviously situation as

1256
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 3: the family relationship is devolving in public view. Let's actually

1257
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 3: play though this clip of Michael Orr talking about the

1258
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 3: situation himself. This is E.

1259
01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:57,720
Speaker 8: Two.

1260
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 9: You just said you feel like you've been missed, labeled,

1261
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 9: sometimes misunderstood, and I think, at least from what I've

1262
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 9: read in the book, a lot of that stems from

1263
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 9: how you were portrayed in the movie The blind Side,

1264
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 9: and that people might have the wrong idea of your personality.

1265
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 9: Number One, that you were this kind of shy wall flower,

1266
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 9: that you were timid and you had to be kind

1267
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 9: of like drawn out of your shell, when in reality

1268
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 9: you were a workaholic, you were hyper organized, and you

1269
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 9: were like, damn it, I'm making something of myself no

1270
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 9: matter what it takes after a rough background.

1271
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 6: Is that.

1272
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 10: The big one that you feel you were mislabeled as

1273
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:40,760
Speaker 10: I think it took away the hard work and the

1274
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 10: dedication that I created from a child and going to

1275
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 10: school in the third grade, getting myself up first one

1276
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 10: in the locker room last one out, and I think

1277
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 10: the biggest for me is, you know, being portrayed not

1278
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 10: being able to read right second grade, I was doing

1279
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 10: plays and in front of the school, and I think

1280
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 10: that's one of the when you go into a locker

1281
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 10: room and your teammates don't think you can learn to playbook.

1282
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 10: You know, that way's heavy.

1283
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 3: I can imagine absolutely does, and he says that extends

1284
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 3: to all of his opportunities professionally. Basically, if you're known

1285
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 3: from the blind Side, in the Blindside purports to be

1286
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 3: and maybe the Blindside actually had some legal language that

1287
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 3: it was like roughly based on a true story. But

1288
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 3: either way, if that's what rockets you to fame. Obviously

1289
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 3: he was very talented in his own right, but that

1290
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:40,560
Speaker 3: was that movie. As an Oscar Wimming film was beloved, controversial,

1291
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 3: but beloved by all lout of the country. You can

1292
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 3: imagine how that would affect everything and the reason this

1293
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 3: is coming to light now. Michael Orr said he was

1294
01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:52,919
Speaker 3: focused on football basically until about twenty sixteen and wasn't

1295
01:07:52,920 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 3: focused on the details. And after he sort of shifted

1296
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 3: his focus from football, he was able to dive into

1297
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 3: the details and start unraveling some of what he thought

1298
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,919
Speaker 3: was an adoption and seeing where some of the money went.

1299
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 3: So he filed a petition to end the conservatorship on Monday,

1300
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:12,400
Speaker 3: and or learned that the conservatorship didn't have the power,

1301
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,080
Speaker 3: as NBC says, to make him a legal member of

1302
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: their family back in February. So this is all happening

1303
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,160
Speaker 3: now because he's just starting to in his type of

1304
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 3: in his reasoning, kind of put the pieces together. This

1305
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:27,479
Speaker 3: is from the petition. It says the lie of Michael's

1306
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 3: adoption is one upon which co conservators LeAnn Toe and

1307
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 3: Sean Towey I'd never learned how to pronounce that name,

1308
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 3: have enriched themselves at the expense of their ward the

1309
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 3: undersigned Michael or I think it's Touey Ryan. This is

1310
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 3: like obviously very very sad situation. The Tua family denies

1311
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 3: the allegations. They say, we love Michael at sixteen or seventeen,

1312
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 3: we'll love him at thirty seven, we'll love him at

1313
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:52,719
Speaker 3: sixty seven. Both the son and the parents have said

1314
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 3: that there was an excerpt from the mom's memoir that

1315
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 3: came out talking about if there's a if there's a

1316
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 3: conception about Michael, it said, he's actually very smart. So

1317
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 3: I don't know how deliberate any of this was on

1318
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 3: their part. That will be litigated in court. I genuinely

1319
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 3: don't know. It could have been really malicious. It could

1320
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 3: not have been what's your sense of this? Ryan as

1321
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 3: somebody who you said when we took a break earlier,

1322
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:18,840
Speaker 3: not a fan of the film.

1323
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 1: The film just brutal to me, the White Savior stuff,

1324
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,680
Speaker 1: it's just without not like, not even any attempts to

1325
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: kind of cut it for public consumption, just straight you know,

1326
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: white Savior dope just injected right into the veins of

1327
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 1: the American public.

1328
01:09:37,400 --> 01:09:38,960
Speaker 4: That part of it to me.

1329
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: Was just like just too much, Like it felt like

1330
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:45,680
Speaker 1: this is this is impossible, like that there has to

1331
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:48,040
Speaker 1: be a little bit more agency on the part of Or.

1332
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 1: And you hear Or they're saying, like, look, when I

1333
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 1: was in third grade, I was getting myself up, getting

1334
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: to school, you know, a workaholic. He later in that

1335
01:09:56,000 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: interview says, I was already an all American kind of

1336
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: before I moved in, uh to their home. And so

1337
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: the one thing the New York Times reported is that

1338
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:08,960
Speaker 1: there's some discrepancy over the question of how much money,

1339
01:10:09,439 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 1: uh the kids got the uh the parents are saying

1340
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:15,559
Speaker 1: the kids got very little, the kids saying they got

1341
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: a little bit more than that. But broadly, broadly speaking,

1342
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: there was a deal that was struck, the film deal

1343
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 1: where the blood children uh did get cut in on

1344
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: the revenues of the movie, and an or did not

1345
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,559
Speaker 1: or who was the you know, putative star of the

1346
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 1: film did not get cut in, while the while the

1347
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: while his you know, quote unquote siblings did And I

1348
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 1: think everybody across the spectrum could agree that that's weird. Now,

1349
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: the dad says that the conservativeship was set up in

1350
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:48,599
Speaker 1: a way that would enable him to go to college,

1351
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 1: and there are some rules about income in college, et cetera.

1352
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 1: But you know, the movie didn't come out until you know,

1353
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: he's already in the NFL, so that that wouldn't have

1354
01:10:58,880 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: you know, that wouldn't have implicated that question. Uh So

1355
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 1: some of this does need to be litigated, but some

1356
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: of it also does seem clear like he should have

1357
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 1: been cut in on the movie. Like I think we

1358
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 1: and and the and the book, if if there was

1359
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: any kind of book, they're probably not book proceeds. I'm

1360
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,800
Speaker 1: not sure but film proceeds absolutely if the kid, if

1361
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 1: if the kids that he's living with are getting cut

1362
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 1: in because of his story, Like it's not a it's

1363
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: not a movie because of them. As you know, I'm

1364
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 1: sure they're fine kids or whatever, but you know that's

1365
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:30,519
Speaker 1: not that's not who they who we all flock to

1366
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: the theaters to see.

1367
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 4: It was his story, so he should have been cut

1368
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 4: in on that.

1369
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: And but you know, he also has a book coming out,

1370
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 1: so this is you know, and.

1371
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 4: This is what this is.

1372
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:45,440
Speaker 1: Uh, this, this is drawing attention to that and uh,

1373
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 1: I'm actually looking forward to reading this book.

1374
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 4: Is he's you know, he's led a fascinating life.

1375
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:53,479
Speaker 1: And not just a offensive lineman like a Pro Bowl

1376
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 1: or won a Super Bowl with the Ravens, like one

1377
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:57,720
Speaker 1: of you know, one of the best offensive linemen in

1378
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 1: the league while he was playing and had had a

1379
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 1: very long and successful career.

1380
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like many people in the NFL, came from

1381
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 3: a genuinely difficult background. And it is it is true

1382
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:11,120
Speaker 3: watching the movie the kind of as you say, and

1383
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 3: this was the controversy surrounding it for a long time.

1384
01:12:14,080 --> 01:12:17,719
Speaker 3: The white savior narrative is really glaring and it's definitely

1385
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 3: a movie from another time that the movie would not

1386
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:22,680
Speaker 3: be made in the same way today, it would not

1387
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 3: be received in the same way today, There's no question

1388
01:12:25,160 --> 01:12:29,400
Speaker 3: about it. And sort of diving down into the particulars legally,

1389
01:12:29,439 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's really sad that that has

1390
01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 3: to play out publicly. But at the same time, if

1391
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 3: you know this was malicious and to your point, it

1392
01:12:38,080 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 3: is really weird. I actually think the conservatorship is extremely weird.

1393
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 3: To begin with, he was seventeen years old, I think

1394
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 3: when this deal was struck, and rather than adopting a

1395
01:12:47,040 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 3: seventeen year old I can understand the legal argument for

1396
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 3: going with a conservatorship. A lot of people are familiar

1397
01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,720
Speaker 3: with conservativeships because of what happened with Britney Spears, what

1398
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 3: played out with Britney Spears over the last ten plus years.

1399
01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 3: But it does seem odd that they had a conservatorship

1400
01:13:00,040 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 3: over Michael Orr and continue to He is now filing

1401
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 3: a petition to end the conservatorship. That the whole thing,

1402
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 3: I mean, that in and of itself I find very strange,

1403
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:11,680
Speaker 3: and it seems like it's possible the conservativeship. You know,

1404
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 3: maybe there were there were legal justifications. Their attorney, who

1405
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 3: I believe as a family friend, told them at the time,

1406
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,040
Speaker 3: you know, you've got to do this for college reasons,

1407
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. Maybe that's the case, or maybe

1408
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 3: there were other motivations involved, and there were reasons why

1409
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 3: they didn't want to formally adopt him into their family.

1410
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 3: But to your point, there are some things that are

1411
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 3: just on the surface weird, and you know, at least

1412
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:36,439
Speaker 3: from the sort of court of public opinion, I do

1413
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 3: feel like the ball is now in the Twoey's court

1414
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 3: to prove that they had, you know, no ill intentions,

1415
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 3: because these two things in and of themselves, Like you said,

1416
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:51,559
Speaker 3: with the movie deal, that stuff is just patently bizarre

1417
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 3: on its face, and they're the sort of shift culturally

1418
01:13:56,280 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 3: I think puts them in their legacy like actually in

1419
01:13:59,600 --> 01:14:02,840
Speaker 3: Big Try going forward, I think the mom is doing

1420
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:05,559
Speaker 3: motivational speeches. Leanne I think is her name. She does

1421
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 3: motivational speeches. I think they're still profiting off of the

1422
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,599
Speaker 3: Blindside narrative in some pretty big ways. And if they're

1423
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 3: doing that and there's there's way more to the story

1424
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,680
Speaker 3: than we realize, then they deserve justice. They deserve to

1425
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 3: be held accountable for what they did. So in some sense,

1426
01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 3: it's sad this is playing out publicly because it does

1427
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 3: seem like there was a lot of love between these folks.

1428
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,599
Speaker 3: But on the other set, on the other hand, if

1429
01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:30,080
Speaker 3: the public's being taken for a ride, good, let's let's

1430
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:31,680
Speaker 3: have it play out publicly so there can be some

1431
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 3: justice served.

1432
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to see compare Orr's book to

1433
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:39,800
Speaker 1: Michael Lewis's book, which I read back in when it

1434
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 1: came out two thousand and five or two thousand and six,

1435
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:46,439
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if it was heavily sourced just to

1436
01:14:46,479 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: the twoies, or if he had, you know, if he

1437
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 1: accurately got Or's perspective in there. You know, Lewis is

1438
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 1: the best, you know, nonfiction kind of storyteller that we've

1439
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 1: had over the last at thirty years or so. He

1440
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:03,360
Speaker 1: just you know, pumps out classic after classic. So I

1441
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:05,679
Speaker 1: will be interested to see, you know, how how well

1442
01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 1: it holds up and whether or not he just kind

1443
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 1: of embedded himself with with the parents rather or quote

1444
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: quote unquote parents rather than or. So we'll see that's

1445
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,800
Speaker 1: that's something that that I don't know yet, but I'll

1446
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 1: but I'll be curious about I'm also curious to read

1447
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:25,800
Speaker 1: his uh Sam Bankman freed. He's got that one coming out,

1448
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 1: so I guess he's got his hands full, although his

1449
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 1: subject is now indisposed having gone back to jail, So

1450
01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 1: maybe you can focus on just writing it at this point.

1451
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I mean I think this actually could legitimately

1452
01:15:38,280 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 3: reflect in ways that are then maybe not so beneficial

1453
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 3: for Michael Lewis going forward. People may reevaluate his work

1454
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,559
Speaker 3: depending on how or story compares with Michael lewis story

1455
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 3: and how well Michael Lewis is able to defend his work.

1456
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, but if that's the case, this is

1457
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:57,639
Speaker 3: not great, and it's it's not You can really see

1458
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:01,040
Speaker 3: from Or's perspective, how of course this follow him throughout

1459
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:03,799
Speaker 3: his career. The way he was depicted in the movie

1460
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 3: is he was he was treated as an idiot basically

1461
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 3: in the movie, and so you can understand how frustrating

1462
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:13,880
Speaker 3: it would have been from his perspective to have that

1463
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:19,560
Speaker 3: follow him throughout his career. That is just his frustrations

1464
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 3: are very easy to empathize.

1465
01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 1: With, right, right, That was a poignant moment to hear

1466
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,679
Speaker 1: say you're looking around room and you're you're wondering if

1467
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 1: your teammates think that you don't know how to learn

1468
01:16:31,720 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 1: a playbook, which is awfully important for offensive linemen.

1469
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 4: Everything falls apart, and.

1470
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 3: It's not like he needed It's not like he needed

1471
01:16:39,800 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 3: the movie to be successful. This is the point that

1472
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 3: you made earlier. It's not like, well, you know, it's

1473
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:45,920
Speaker 3: just the price you pay for making it. No, I

1474
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,040
Speaker 3: mean like he of course it made him more famous

1475
01:16:48,040 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 3: than he otherwise would have been. But his success in

1476
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 3: football is not due to the book in the movie.

1477
01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,559
Speaker 3: He stands on his own merits. So it's yeah, the

1478
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 3: frustrations are very very easy to empathize with.

1479
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,720
Speaker 1: So I see and I'm excited at the bar here

1480
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 1: it says we got some Hillary content coming up.

1481
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 4: What's your point today?

1482
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:11,519
Speaker 3: Yes, can't stop, won't stop. I want to start by

1483
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:14,479
Speaker 3: playing some clips of Hillary Clinton on Rachel Maddow Show.

1484
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 3: Just as luck would have it, she was on Motto

1485
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 3: Show to discuss an Atlantic op ed she wrote recently

1486
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 3: called the weaponization of loneliness. On Monday Night, as the

1487
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 3: indictment Fanny Willis's indictment against Donald Trump was dropped. That

1488
01:17:27,000 --> 01:17:29,800
Speaker 3: was late at night. Actually it started coming out like eight,

1489
01:17:29,880 --> 01:17:32,640
Speaker 3: nine pm something like that. But let's start with this

1490
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 3: first clip. It's a little bit shorter, but it's just

1491
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 3: you can see Hillary and Rich Mattow having a little

1492
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:39,679
Speaker 3: bit of a good time as the indictment is announced.

1493
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:40,760
Speaker 1: Fancy meeting you.

1494
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:42,240
Speaker 3: I can't all this.

1495
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, this is not the circumstances in which I expected

1496
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:46,719
Speaker 11: to be talking.

1497
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 3: To you, nor me Rachel.

1498
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:52,479
Speaker 12: It's always good to talk to you, but honestly, I

1499
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:56,200
Speaker 12: didn't think that it would be under these circumstances yet

1500
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 12: another set of indictments.

1501
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 3: Kayley mcananey on Fox News react to that clip just

1502
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 3: by being like, what do you you know you're laughing

1503
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:06,320
Speaker 3: at this. It's not good for the country. And obviously

1504
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 3: Kayley mccanany was attached to the Trump administration, so it's

1505
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 3: especially not funny if you're Kaylely macanany. But at the

1506
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,599
Speaker 3: same time, she does have a point about how funny

1507
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:16,920
Speaker 3: all of this is and whether or not it's a

1508
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 3: good look for Hillary Clinton, somebody who actually avoided an

1509
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 3: indictment because James Comey said, you know, no reasonable prosecutor

1510
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 3: would bring this case against her, which was very debatable

1511
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:30,519
Speaker 3: at the time, she's somebody who sort of skirted that

1512
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,680
Speaker 3: and lost to Donald Trump. Then you know, perpetrated this

1513
01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:37,080
Speaker 3: fiction of Russian collusion in ways that were not tethered

1514
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 3: to a small but real problem of Russian interference in

1515
01:18:40,439 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 3: the twenty sixteen election. Haha, this is so funny, let

1516
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:47,040
Speaker 3: me laugh in this nice MSNBC studio might not be

1517
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 3: the best look, but that aside. Let's dive into the

1518
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:53,679
Speaker 3: substance here and let's watch more of the conversation between

1519
01:18:53,720 --> 01:18:55,080
Speaker 3: Mattow and Clinton from Monday Night.

1520
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 11: If bad actors tell us falsely that every election has

1521
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 11: stolen and that the only way an election is trustworthy

1522
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:07,200
Speaker 11: is if they come out on top of it, then

1523
01:19:07,280 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 11: something it tells you something not just about that person.

1524
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: Or that moment.

1525
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 11: It maybe wounds us as a democracy and in a

1526
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 11: way that is hard to repair. What do you think

1527
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 11: about how we get better after the wounds that have

1528
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,919
Speaker 11: been inflicted on us through this process.

1529
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:28,719
Speaker 12: Well, I think you know, the truth matters. I think

1530
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 12: having these cases be brought and be brought in such

1531
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:36,480
Speaker 12: professional manners will see how they unfold. Obviously, the trials,

1532
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 12: if there are trials, are going to be critically important.

1533
01:19:40,200 --> 01:19:43,040
Speaker 12: But the article you mentioned that I published about the

1534
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:47,720
Speaker 12: weaponization of loneliness really does, in my view, point to

1535
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:52,240
Speaker 12: the larger cultural concerns because the lack of trust, the divisiveness,

1536
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:57,599
Speaker 12: the undermining of faith in ourselves, in each other, respect

1537
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:01,360
Speaker 12: for our institutions, the rule of law, law, all of

1538
01:20:01,400 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 12: that has been deliberately inculcated within our body politic.

1539
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:09,000
Speaker 1: You know, there were trends before.

1540
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:12,480
Speaker 12: I mean, we have seen how people have become more isolated,

1541
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 12: less community oriented, less civically minded. Then we see how

1542
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:21,120
Speaker 12: social media and technology has certainly accelerated a lot of

1543
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 12: those trends.

1544
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:25,040
Speaker 3: So Hillary Clinton is low hanging fruit. I get that.

1545
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 3: I think it's still relevant to break down a lot

1546
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 3: of what she said there because she's representative of a

1547
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 3: class of elites who is now basically just unhappy with

1548
01:20:35,120 --> 01:20:37,800
Speaker 3: the world that they created. That's the big takeaway I

1549
01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 3: think from everything Hillary Clinton just said there. And you

1550
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 3: know she said Richard Matto said, you know, the only

1551
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 3: way if we're in a situation where the only way

1552
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 3: people can feel comfortable with the elections, you know, an

1553
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 3: election is stolen if they lose it. The fact that

1554
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:57,640
Speaker 3: Rachel Matto said that to Hillary Clinton earnestly in a

1555
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:00,840
Speaker 3: way that wasn't pointing the finger at Hillary Clinton. I

1556
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 3: think is remarkable. There's a huge difference between Hillary Clinton

1557
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 3: and Donald Trump, and that Hillary Clinton didn't concede that

1558
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 3: she lost the election to Donald Trump the next day.

1559
01:21:08,800 --> 01:21:12,320
Speaker 3: She spent years after that casting doubt though on the

1560
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 3: outcome of the election, saying that Russia stole the election.

1561
01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:17,719
Speaker 3: Her campaign was a huge part of planting the seeds

1562
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 3: of doubt about Trump's legitimacy as president of the United States,

1563
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 3: and she continued to perpetuate the fiction of this grand

1564
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:28,439
Speaker 3: vast conspiracy, to borrow a phrase about Donald Trump being

1565
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,519
Speaker 3: an asset of Vladimir Putin in some very specific and

1566
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 3: very false ways. So, just to start Hillary Clinton again,

1567
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:40,360
Speaker 3: we see her being somebody that is creating a world

1568
01:21:40,479 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 3: she doesn't want to take accountability for having created. She

1569
01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 3: creates this world that she's then unhappy with. I don't

1570
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:48,479
Speaker 3: think she recognizes how detrimental I shouldn't say I don't think.

1571
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:50,920
Speaker 3: I know she doesn't recognize she never could recognize how

1572
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:57,000
Speaker 3: detrimental the crisis of confidence and institutions, how much her fiction,

1573
01:21:57,200 --> 01:21:59,520
Speaker 3: the fiction that she was in a large part responsible

1574
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 3: for about Russia collusion how much that played into the

1575
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:04,559
Speaker 3: loss of trust and institutions. By the way, it's always

1576
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:07,439
Speaker 3: worth mentioning that even the birther Or conspiracy, which was

1577
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 3: famously perpetuated by Donald Trump, came from the Clinton campaign

1578
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:13,280
Speaker 3: all the way back in two thousand and eight. I

1579
01:22:13,320 --> 01:22:16,479
Speaker 3: believe that was a Sidney Bloominhaal special. But nevertheless, Hillary

1580
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 3: Clinton has been sowing the seeds of doubt of distrust

1581
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,000
Speaker 3: in our institutions for a very long time. And again,

1582
01:22:22,240 --> 01:22:26,080
Speaker 3: this is where the elites who are passing down the

1583
01:22:26,200 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 3: United States of twenty twenty three to their children and

1584
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 3: their grandchildren look around and are suddenly really unhappy with

1585
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 3: the world that they've created, although of course they're unwilling

1586
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:38,520
Speaker 3: to take accountability for having created it. They'll take accountability

1587
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,280
Speaker 3: for creating other things, but they won't take accountability for

1588
01:22:41,320 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 3: creating this world that they're deeply unhappy with.

1589
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 4: Now.

1590
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 3: I actually want to say, I'm glad that Hillary Clinton's

1591
01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 3: op ed the weaponization of loneliness that she echoed a

1592
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:53,160
Speaker 3: little bit from in this Mattow interview. Genuinely, I'm glad

1593
01:22:53,240 --> 01:22:57,440
Speaker 3: that she's pointing some figures at civic breakdown and at technology,

1594
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 3: at loneliness, at isolation. I am genuinely very glad to

1595
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:03,439
Speaker 3: hear that, because I think there are a whole lot

1596
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:07,040
Speaker 3: of people who sit in those MSNBC studios, cable news

1597
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 3: studios and don't recognize exactly how much that's crept into

1598
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:15,120
Speaker 3: the everyday lives of your average American. And so you know,

1599
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 3: half of the battle is omitting you have a problem. So,

1600
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 3: in all seriousness, I think it's fantastic that somebody like

1601
01:23:22,520 --> 01:23:25,200
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton has come to the realization that there are

1602
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:28,559
Speaker 3: serious trends. You know, when this was being written about

1603
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:32,120
Speaker 3: by Robert Putnam in nineteen eighty, where was Hillary Clinton?

1604
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:34,800
Speaker 3: When Bolling Alone came out? When What's the Matter with

1605
01:23:34,880 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 3: Kansas came out? When Coming Apart came out? All of

1606
01:23:38,080 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 3: these you know, essential pieces of scholarship that we're creating,

1607
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:45,160
Speaker 3: that we're showing very real problems existed. What happened from

1608
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:48,479
Speaker 3: the Clinton administration in the nineties, What we saw a

1609
01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:51,439
Speaker 3: lot of policy decisions that exacerbated the problems of civic

1610
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,519
Speaker 3: breakdown in certain pockets of the country, of loneliness in

1611
01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:57,679
Speaker 3: certain pockets of the country. Let's just name too, NAFTA

1612
01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 3: and WTL great for some parts of the country, very

1613
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 3: very destabilizing for other parts of the country. Let's look

1614
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 3: at all of the tech mergers that happened during the

1615
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:10,800
Speaker 3: Obama administration that Hillary Clinton was a part of. Let's

1616
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,400
Speaker 3: talk about Section two thirty, which was passed by none

1617
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 3: other than Bill Clinton himself, passed into law by none

1618
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 3: other than Bill Clinton himself, that allowed tech companies. And

1619
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:22,040
Speaker 3: you know, there's a piece of legislation at the time

1620
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 3: that we didn't really know where the Internet was going.

1621
01:24:24,080 --> 01:24:27,360
Speaker 3: So it's somewhat understandable in the same way that you

1622
01:24:27,360 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 3: can look back and say, I get why there was

1623
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 3: so much excitement among elites for NAFTA and WTO. I understand,

1624
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 3: but the practical consequences have been way more serious and

1625
01:24:38,360 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 3: way more destabilizing than anybody from that sort of political

1626
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:44,880
Speaker 3: establishment recognized that would be. And yet they still they

1627
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:46,599
Speaker 3: don't want to take accountability for it, and they still

1628
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:48,680
Speaker 3: blame everybody else. That's what Hillary Clinton is doing here,

1629
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:51,479
Speaker 3: pointing her fingers at everybody else, instead of looking around

1630
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:56,040
Speaker 3: and saying, oh, maybe the regime that I led and

1631
01:24:56,120 --> 01:24:58,640
Speaker 3: championed for so long had something to do with this.

1632
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,200
Speaker 3: It's also remarkable to hear her talk about the rule

1633
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:03,320
Speaker 3: of law, which, as I mentioned earlier, I mean she

1634
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,640
Speaker 3: really just said there rule of law. We've talked on

1635
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:08,120
Speaker 3: the show over the last couple of weeks. I mean,

1636
01:25:08,160 --> 01:25:10,639
Speaker 3: I think pretty much everybody here at Breaking Points would

1637
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:13,160
Speaker 3: be super happy if they locked up every politician who

1638
01:25:13,160 --> 01:25:16,320
Speaker 3: did something bad. That's not what happens. So to hear

1639
01:25:16,400 --> 01:25:21,080
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton, a supporter of Joe Biden who was overseeing

1640
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 3: or was the father of Hunter Biden, I should say,

1641
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:26,880
Speaker 3: there are very serious implications about lack of rule of

1642
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,760
Speaker 3: law when it comes to Hunter Biden, very serious implications

1643
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:31,680
Speaker 3: about lack of rule of law when it comes to

1644
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 3: Hillary Clinton herself when it comes to Bill Clinton. So

1645
01:25:35,880 --> 01:25:38,400
Speaker 3: to hear her sort of waxed sanctimonious about rule of

1646
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 3: law is another example that again she's looking around and saying,

1647
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,720
Speaker 3: you know, rule of law. Donald Trump felt so comfortable

1648
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 3: flouting rule of law in all of these different cases,

1649
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 3: and Republicans are now so comfortable with Donald Trump flouting

1650
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:54,479
Speaker 3: the rule of law in all of these different cases.

1651
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,240
Speaker 3: That is so disturbing, you know it is, But the

1652
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 3: only reason people are doing that is because rule of law.

1653
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 3: It's sort of a fight fire with fire. That's a

1654
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 3: lot of things. And I'm not saying that's right. A

1655
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 3: lot of people on the conservative side think that's right. Now.

1656
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 3: I don't really agree with that over in particular cases.

1657
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:16,240
Speaker 3: But to see her just being like, oh my gosh,

1658
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:20,479
Speaker 3: the mysterious rule of law, the breakdown and rule of law,

1659
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:23,840
Speaker 3: it's just really really too cute by have to hear that,

1660
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 3: specifically from Hillary Clinton. And it's also remarkable to hear

1661
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:29,599
Speaker 3: her talk about public trust for all of the reasons

1662
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 3: that we've already mentioned, so again, especially from Rachel Maddaw,

1663
01:26:34,439 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 3: the journalist in this situation, to be tossing a question

1664
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 3: to Hillary Clinton about how disturbing it is that people think,

1665
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:43,960
Speaker 3: you know, it's only it's just an election is not

1666
01:26:44,040 --> 01:26:46,120
Speaker 3: stolen if I win, but if I lose, then it

1667
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,120
Speaker 3: is stolen. To hear that particularly tossed to Hillary Clinton,

1668
01:26:49,520 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 3: to hear that from a network that has platformed Stacy

1669
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:56,280
Speaker 3: Abrams however many times without ever asking her the question like, Hey,

1670
01:26:56,400 --> 01:26:58,320
Speaker 3: maybe do you think walking around saying that you're the

1671
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:01,639
Speaker 3: legitimate governor of Georgia might be sewing some seeds of

1672
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 3: distrust in ways that are very unhealthy it's just again,

1673
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 3: it's the world they created that they are unhappy with.

1674
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:11,599
Speaker 3: So that's one and two. It's that they're just unwilling

1675
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,280
Speaker 3: to admit that it's the world that they created. They're

1676
01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:17,840
Speaker 3: unwilling to even see, recognize understand that it's the world

1677
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,439
Speaker 3: they created. And it's not just from these sort of

1678
01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 3: abstract questions about how Hillary Clinton talked about Russia and

1679
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 3: the media. It also goes down to policy decisions that

1680
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:28,840
Speaker 3: she supported. Guess who was a major donor to the

1681
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:33,639
Speaker 3: Clinton Foundation, the Sackler family. Some of this stuff Tech

1682
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 3: a donor to Hillary Clinton. Some of the stuff is

1683
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:43,040
Speaker 3: concrete policy decisions that she supported, NAFTA, wto two thirty

1684
01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 3: tech mergers under Obama. I get that she wasn't in

1685
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:49,839
Speaker 3: control of tech mergers, but what was she talking about

1686
01:27:50,240 --> 01:27:52,639
Speaker 3: when it came to all of these different decisions. Where

1687
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:54,160
Speaker 3: did she disagree? I mean, this is the woman who

1688
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:56,880
Speaker 3: campaigned for president in two thousand and seven, two thousand

1689
01:27:56,920 --> 01:27:59,200
Speaker 3: and eight, campaign for president in twenty fifteen and twenty

1690
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 3: sixteen and was on the wrong side of a lot

1691
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 3: of these issues. So, in addition to just sort of

1692
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:07,639
Speaker 3: the bigger questions about how Hillary Clinton has discussed these

1693
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 3: issues and public in ways that are severely detrimental to

1694
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:14,880
Speaker 3: public trust. The issues where she has been untruthful, where

1695
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 3: she has outright lied over and over again that has

1696
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,439
Speaker 3: contributed to a lack of public trust. The ways in

1697
01:28:21,479 --> 01:28:24,720
Speaker 3: which she has been treated by let's say, when it

1698
01:28:24,720 --> 01:28:26,599
Speaker 3: comes to case of the rule of law, her husband

1699
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:29,719
Speaker 3: has been treated, the administration, the Obama administration she's served

1700
01:28:29,800 --> 01:28:32,680
Speaker 3: under has been treated. These are all really serious and

1701
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:35,840
Speaker 3: they are all They have all contributed over time to

1702
01:28:36,040 --> 01:28:39,160
Speaker 3: places in the country that are super supportive of Donald Trump.

1703
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,599
Speaker 3: Maybe because they were they bore the brunt of WTO

1704
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:45,639
Speaker 3: and NAFTA in ways that other parts of the country didn't.

1705
01:28:45,640 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 3: You know, Hillary Clinton famously and on stage in India

1706
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 3: bragged about how she won in twenty sixteen states with

1707
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:55,680
Speaker 3: the highest GDP, as though all those places that are unproductive.

1708
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 3: That is just who would want to win those states anyway?

1709
01:28:58,120 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 3: Who would want to be popular in those states anyway?

1710
01:29:00,080 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 3: That's for people like Donald Trump. So it just comes

1711
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 3: back to this lack of accountability. Ryan, and I find

1712
01:29:09,520 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 3: that really grating. All right, Ryan, I think you have

1713
01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:18,720
Speaker 3: an update for us on your fantastic reporting in Pakistan

1714
01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:22,800
Speaker 3: about the Imran Khan situation continuing to unfold. Over there, tell.

1715
01:29:22,760 --> 01:29:26,400
Speaker 1: Us more, you know, three different interesting updates here. One

1716
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 1: we'll talk about the State Department response. We're going to

1717
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 1: talk about the response in Pakistan. But more immediately, we

1718
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:36,600
Speaker 1: have breaking news just out of Pakistan right now. The

1719
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 1: Pakistani government has charged Imran Khan, former Prime Minister, with

1720
01:29:41,280 --> 01:29:46,320
Speaker 1: losing a top secret Pakistani cable. He had previously said

1721
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:50,759
Speaker 1: that he had lost this cable that proved a connection

1722
01:29:50,920 --> 01:29:55,240
Speaker 1: between United States pressure and his ouser have now filed

1723
01:29:55,320 --> 01:29:58,960
Speaker 1: charges against him, with the strong implication being that Imran

1724
01:29:59,040 --> 01:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Khan was the sort our source. You know, that he

1725
01:30:02,080 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 1: lost the document. Now we have it.

1726
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 4: Now. The problem with that logic is manyfold, and we

1727
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 4: can go through it here.

1728
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:13,879
Speaker 1: One my colleague Martaz is saying, nor myself traveled to Pakistan,

1729
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:15,920
Speaker 1: like we did not go to Pakistan, so we did

1730
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 1: not get a physical copy. We obviously got a digital copy.

1731
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:23,719
Speaker 1: So the question of whether or not he lost it

1732
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 1: is absurd, it inconsistent, makes no sense. So we also

1733
01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 1: were very clear in the story that our source was

1734
01:30:33,720 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: inside the Pakistani military. The source was not in Ronkan,

1735
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 1: it was not anybody in his circle. It was not

1736
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,640
Speaker 1: any civilian functionary. We were very clear about that, and

1737
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:48,200
Speaker 1: the fact that he lost the document doesn't have any

1738
01:30:48,200 --> 01:30:50,040
Speaker 1: connection to whether or not somebody.

1739
01:30:49,720 --> 01:30:52,439
Speaker 4: Else could digitally lead a copy.

1740
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 1: What's interesting, though, is that there was a kind of

1741
01:30:56,240 --> 01:30:59,880
Speaker 1: a three step move that at the State Department and

1742
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:03,240
Speaker 1: also the kind of Pakistani elite were doing about this cable.

1743
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 1: So first they would say it's inauthentic, this is you know,

1744
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:09,599
Speaker 1: we how do we even know that this is?

1745
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:10,360
Speaker 4: This is real.

1746
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:12,759
Speaker 1: Then they would say this must have come from Iran

1747
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,080
Speaker 1: Khan and it's high treason. And then they would say

1748
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:19,479
Speaker 1: this is a nothing burger. And if you think about it,

1749
01:31:19,560 --> 01:31:21,799
Speaker 1: like all three of those things can't be true together.

1750
01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 4: Two of the three can't be together. One of the

1751
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 4: three can't be true together.

1752
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:31,800
Speaker 1: It's either you know it either is authentic and it

1753
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:34,519
Speaker 1: is either a treason as act, or it's a nothing burger.

1754
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:37,960
Speaker 1: It can't be all of those three different things. Finally,

1755
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:41,400
Speaker 1: it seems like they're moving away from questioning the authenticity

1756
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:43,559
Speaker 1: of it. And we could put up this first element here,

1757
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 1: the outgoing Pakistani Prime Minister Shabbaz Sharif, who has had

1758
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,400
Speaker 1: access to the document, so would know, you know what

1759
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:54,759
Speaker 1: it says. Said this in an interview with The Guardian

1760
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 1: said Khan said he had the cipher but he had

1761
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:02,120
Speaker 1: lost it. Now it has been published on a website,

1762
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:08,160
Speaker 1: and so that is confirmation that the document is authentic. Now,

1763
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:11,920
Speaker 1: within about an hour or two after our show posted

1764
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:18,040
Speaker 1: last week breaking the news of this cable and simultaneously

1765
01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 1: published at the Intercept, there was a State Department briefing.

1766
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:24,320
Speaker 1: I want to play a couple of clips from that

1767
01:32:24,439 --> 01:32:27,720
Speaker 1: briefing to show kind of how they responded. And people asked,

1768
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 1: why wasn't it in the show? Why did it come

1769
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:32,120
Speaker 1: out just a little bit after we were giving the

1770
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 1: State Department time to respond. What Matt Miller says from

1771
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:37,200
Speaker 1: the podium here is very similar to what he said

1772
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:39,679
Speaker 1: in the written statement that we included in the article.

1773
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to watch him say it. So here's

1774
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:45,759
Speaker 1: the State Department getting pressed on that cable last.

1775
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 13: Week, the cipher cable supposedly that's been that's been a

1776
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 13: reported just I know you've had some on record comments

1777
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:54,600
Speaker 13: on this, but I wanted to ask you about the

1778
01:32:54,640 --> 01:32:58,600
Speaker 13: veracity of the comments. It's obviously a Pakistani document. Is

1779
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:05,680
Speaker 13: the United States generally think that what was reported there.

1780
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 4: So a few things.

1781
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:10,479
Speaker 6: One, yes, it's a report reported to be a Pakistani document.

1782
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:12,760
Speaker 6: I can't speak to whether it is an actual Pakistani

1783
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,120
Speaker 6: document or not. Just simply don't know. With respect to

1784
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:19,920
Speaker 6: the comments that were reported, I'm not going to speak

1785
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 6: to private diplomatic exchanges other than to say that even

1786
01:33:23,920 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 6: if those comments were accurate as reported, they in no

1787
01:33:28,080 --> 01:33:31,080
Speaker 6: way showed the United States taking a position on who

1788
01:33:31,120 --> 01:33:32,840
Speaker 6: the leader of Pakistan ought to be.

1789
01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:35,720
Speaker 1: If you remember the comments that the State Department made

1790
01:33:35,760 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 1: privately to the Pakistani ambassador, they said, if the no

1791
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:44,679
Speaker 1: confidence vote against Imran Khan succeeds, all will be forgiven,

1792
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:45,799
Speaker 1: and they all will be forgiven.

1793
01:33:45,960 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 4: Was the way that the United.

1794
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: States was upset that he had visited, that he had

1795
01:33:51,560 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 1: visited Russia on the day of the invasion, that he

1796
01:33:53,400 --> 01:33:57,000
Speaker 1: had taken what they called a quote aggressively neutral stance

1797
01:33:57,040 --> 01:34:00,919
Speaker 1: on the Russia Ukraine War. So somehow the State Department

1798
01:34:01,040 --> 01:34:06,200
Speaker 1: is insisting here that by saying that if you take

1799
01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:10,479
Speaker 1: a particular action, which is throw the prime minister out

1800
01:34:10,560 --> 01:34:13,400
Speaker 1: through a no confidence vote, but all will be forgiven,

1801
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 1: that that is somehow not stating a preference about what

1802
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 1: will happen.

1803
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,280
Speaker 4: I suppose you could argue that, hey, they're just stating.

1804
01:34:22,200 --> 01:34:24,320
Speaker 1: They're just stating facts here, like the same way that

1805
01:34:24,439 --> 01:34:28,120
Speaker 1: let's say, an armed robber might approach somebody and say,

1806
01:34:28,439 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't give me your wallet, I.

1807
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 4: Will pull the trigger.

1808
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:34,559
Speaker 1: Now, I don't have a preference over whether or not

1809
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: one thing or the other happens, but I'm.

1810
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 4: Just telling you, you know what the situation is.

1811
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 1: If and then if he turns over his wallet, you say, well, look,

1812
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:47,040
Speaker 1: that was an independent decision that that person made to

1813
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:51,799
Speaker 1: hand his wallet over. The press Corps did not completely

1814
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: accept that answer. Push back a little bit. Here's the

1815
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:57,320
Speaker 1: next moment from that interview.

1816
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 6: We expressed concern privately to the government of Pakistan, as

1817
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:05,280
Speaker 6: we express concern publicly about the visit of then Prime

1818
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 6: Minister Khan to Moscow on the very day of Russia's

1819
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 6: invasion of Ukraine. We made that concern quite clear. But

1820
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 6: as the former Pakistani ambassador to the United States himself

1821
01:35:17,520 --> 01:35:21,080
Speaker 6: has stated, the allegations that the United States has interfered

1822
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:24,559
Speaker 6: in internal decisions about the leadership of Pakistan are false.

1823
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:27,120
Speaker 6: As we've stated they're false, They've always been false. And

1824
01:35:27,120 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 6: they remain false.

1825
01:35:28,040 --> 01:35:30,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So now Miller here is making a very specific claim,

1826
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:33,719
Speaker 1: and he made the claim to us in a comment also,

1827
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:36,640
Speaker 1: but we did not include it because we thought it

1828
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:41,320
Speaker 1: was too much of a false claim to just allow

1829
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:43,040
Speaker 1: it to be said publicly. But since he's saying it

1830
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:47,280
Speaker 1: from the podium, let's address it here. He's saying that

1831
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 1: the ambassador himself has said that there was actually no

1832
01:35:49,760 --> 01:35:53,120
Speaker 1: interference in fact in the document. In his own assessment,

1833
01:35:53,280 --> 01:35:56,040
Speaker 1: he says that don spoke out of turn here and

1834
01:35:56,080 --> 01:35:59,280
Speaker 1: that the Pakistan ought to complain officially to the United

1835
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:02,960
Speaker 1: States about the behavior. What I think is going on,

1836
01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 1: and I asked for a clarification for the State Department

1837
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:07,160
Speaker 1: of this a week ago, and I re upped that

1838
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:10,280
Speaker 1: request today. I think they have the wrong Khan here,

1839
01:36:10,479 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 1: So we put up this next element. A man named

1840
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:16,240
Speaker 1: Osam Khan, who was the principal secretary to Imran Khan,

1841
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 1: was arrested and held for thirty days in detention by

1842
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:21,920
Speaker 1: the Pakistani government. After that thirty days it attention. He

1843
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:26,479
Speaker 1: put out a statement saying that Khan really trumped up

1844
01:36:26,560 --> 01:36:29,000
Speaker 1: the allegations that were in this cable and that actually

1845
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 1: they don't show that there's any US conspiracy that is

1846
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:35,719
Speaker 1: consistent with what Miller is saying.

1847
01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:37,280
Speaker 4: He's the principal secretary.

1848
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: That is a different official, Asadmaji Khan was the ambassador,

1849
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:45,719
Speaker 1: not a Zam Khan. So I have asked the State Department,

1850
01:36:45,800 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 1: did you confuse your cons here? I understand this, we're

1851
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:52,160
Speaker 1: now talking three different cons But if you're going to

1852
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,840
Speaker 1: make a claim that definitive that the ambassador has said

1853
01:36:56,840 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 1: that there was no interference, you got to make sure

1854
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:01,639
Speaker 1: that you have of the right con here. I'll report

1855
01:37:01,680 --> 01:37:02,840
Speaker 1: back if I hear any of this, but there is

1856
01:37:02,880 --> 01:37:06,759
Speaker 1: no public record that we can find of a sad

1857
01:37:06,840 --> 01:37:10,000
Speaker 1: con going back on his initial assessment that is included

1858
01:37:10,360 --> 01:37:13,519
Speaker 1: in the cable that we published. And then you have

1859
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:17,439
Speaker 1: a follow up from the AP reporter who's in the

1860
01:37:17,479 --> 01:37:20,600
Speaker 1: gallery here, saying, look, okay, you're saying that you're not

1861
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:24,480
Speaker 1: expressing any preference, but you can imagine why people receiving

1862
01:37:24,479 --> 01:37:26,479
Speaker 1: that message might think that you are.

1863
01:37:26,520 --> 01:37:29,160
Speaker 4: So let's let's roll the full rest of this clip.

1864
01:37:29,320 --> 01:37:31,439
Speaker 6: If you take all of the comments in context that

1865
01:37:31,479 --> 01:37:35,320
Speaker 6: were reported in that purported cable, I think what they

1866
01:37:35,360 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 6: show is the United States government expressing concern about the

1867
01:37:38,880 --> 01:37:42,280
Speaker 6: policy choices that the Prime Minister was taking. It is

1868
01:37:42,320 --> 01:37:45,680
Speaker 6: not in any way the United States government expressing a

1869
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:48,600
Speaker 6: preference on who the leadership of Pakistan ought to be.

1870
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:52,680
Speaker 4: You can go.

1871
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:57,440
Speaker 14: I think what I'm hearing is that essentially the substance

1872
01:37:57,520 --> 01:38:01,439
Speaker 14: of this report and the reported Pakistani cable back to

1873
01:38:01,560 --> 01:38:07,160
Speaker 14: Islamabad is accurate. But you're saying that, but it is

1874
01:38:07,280 --> 01:38:11,920
Speaker 14: not the US saying that Prime Minister Khan, then Prime

1875
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 14: Minister Khan has to should leave office?

1876
01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 8: Is that is that correct?

1877
01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:20,479
Speaker 6: Close? Ish, I cannot speak to the close, and I'll

1878
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:25,559
Speaker 6: explain what I meant. I'll explain what I mean by that,

1879
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:29,519
Speaker 6: which is I cannot speak to the veracity of this document.

1880
01:38:29,880 --> 01:38:31,639
Speaker 6: What I can't sidly just finished what I can't say.

1881
01:38:32,080 --> 01:38:35,360
Speaker 6: That's even just even if those comments were all one

1882
01:38:35,439 --> 01:38:38,040
Speaker 6: hundred accurate is reported, which I do not know them

1883
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 6: to be, they do not in any way show UH

1884
01:38:42,280 --> 01:38:44,840
Speaker 6: a representative of the State Department taking a position on

1885
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:46,240
Speaker 6: who the leadership they're commenting on.

1886
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 8: I can understand, though, perhaps perhaps you can understand why

1887
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:54,920
Speaker 8: other countries might think when the US weighs in, even

1888
01:38:54,960 --> 01:38:59,040
Speaker 8: in a way like this, that it is taking a

1889
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:04,120
Speaker 8: position so I mean, I can think a name like five.

1890
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:04,599
Speaker 4: Or ten.

1891
01:39:06,040 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 15: Leaders who the United States has sought to oust, including

1892
01:39:11,400 --> 01:39:14,400
Speaker 15: some that has it has been successful in asking, although

1893
01:39:14,479 --> 01:39:21,000
Speaker 15: not only after a military invasions. So you know, it's

1894
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:25,639
Speaker 15: not an unprecedented thing or for a country to think

1895
01:39:25,720 --> 01:39:29,640
Speaker 15: that the US is trying to pressure it into or

1896
01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:35,760
Speaker 15: trying to make it make its views known about who

1897
01:39:35,800 --> 01:39:37,679
Speaker 15: it thinks should be the leader of a country.

1898
01:39:37,880 --> 01:39:41,360
Speaker 6: Right, I will say that I can understand how those

1899
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:44,439
Speaker 6: comments number one could be taken out of context, and

1900
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:49,960
Speaker 6: number two, how people might have the might desire for

1901
01:39:50,040 --> 01:39:52,439
Speaker 6: them to be taken out of context and might try

1902
01:39:52,439 --> 01:39:55,000
Speaker 6: to use them to advance an agenda that is not

1903
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:56,679
Speaker 6: represented by the content themselves.

1904
01:39:56,720 --> 01:39:58,200
Speaker 8: And do you think that's what's happening here.

1905
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:00,479
Speaker 6: I think a number of people have taking them out

1906
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 6: of context and use them partially. I won't speak to intentions,

1907
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:05,719
Speaker 6: but I think that's what's happened.

1908
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:10,200
Speaker 1: And just so viewers understand the comments that he's talking about. Specifically,

1909
01:40:10,240 --> 01:40:14,360
Speaker 1: Donald Lue, the State Department official, said to the paxtan

1910
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:18,040
Speaker 1: ambassador quote, I think if the note confidence vote against

1911
01:40:18,080 --> 01:40:22,000
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister succeeds, all will be forgiven in Washington

1912
01:40:22,240 --> 01:40:24,360
Speaker 1: because the rush of visit is being looked at as

1913
01:40:24,400 --> 01:40:27,880
Speaker 1: a decision by the Prime Minister otherwise I think it

1914
01:40:27,920 --> 01:40:31,880
Speaker 1: will be tough going ahead. So, Emily, you and I

1915
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:34,840
Speaker 1: were talking last week before we had gotten the State

1916
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:38,479
Speaker 1: Department response, and we were which is why we hadn't

1917
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:41,160
Speaker 1: posted the video yet, and we were kind of guessing, like,

1918
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:43,759
Speaker 1: how is the State Department going to handle this? Because

1919
01:40:43,920 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: they clearly are now caught doing the thing that they

1920
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:49,240
Speaker 1: have said for more than a year that they did

1921
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:51,800
Speaker 1: not do. And it turns out no that they can

1922
01:40:52,080 --> 01:40:57,240
Speaker 1: just continue to say that they didn't. It's hard to

1923
01:40:57,320 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: be stunned at my age in this field, but that

1924
01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 1: to me was a rather dunning set of sentences for

1925
01:41:04,640 --> 01:41:06,200
Speaker 1: a public official to put together.

1926
01:41:06,960 --> 01:41:12,840
Speaker 3: Good on Matt Lee, by the way they ryan that's

1927
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 3: this reporting has been so important and just amazing to

1928
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,599
Speaker 3: see the State Department dance around it. I know you'll

1929
01:41:19,600 --> 01:41:22,479
Speaker 3: continue to keep us updated on that, even all the

1930
01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 3: way from Europe as we continue this month and beyond,

1931
01:41:26,840 --> 01:41:28,719
Speaker 3: so that doesn't for us. Today. It was a big

1932
01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:33,080
Speaker 3: show because there's we're four indictments in that Axios chart

1933
01:41:33,160 --> 01:41:36,360
Speaker 3: we showed earlier in the show. Every time in DC

1934
01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:39,600
Speaker 3: a political reporters sort of braced themselves, and you know,

1935
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:42,800
Speaker 3: it's bittersweet, it's exciting, and it's also going to be

1936
01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 3: a ton of work when you're covering a presidential election cycle.

1937
01:41:45,320 --> 01:41:48,160
Speaker 3: But this time is a presidential election cycle with foreign

1938
01:41:48,160 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 3: indictments that we'll be weaving in and out of each other.

1939
01:41:52,040 --> 01:41:55,679
Speaker 3: So there's a lot Especially when Congress comes back after

1940
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:57,559
Speaker 3: Labor Day, it is just going to be peddled to

1941
01:41:57,560 --> 01:42:01,000
Speaker 3: the medal. There's so much news to cover, and we'll

1942
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:03,519
Speaker 3: be back here every Wednesday breaking it all down for you.

1943
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 4: Never a dull moment, Never a dull moment.

1944
01:42:06,880 --> 01:42:10,599
Speaker 3: Make sure make sure to subscribe to watch the full

1945
01:42:10,680 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 3: Counterpoint Show from beginning to end that's available to premium subscribers.

1946
01:42:14,439 --> 01:42:18,920
Speaker 3: Make sure to follow us. Subscribe on podcast platforms, subscribe

1947
01:42:18,920 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 3: on YouTube. We appreciate it so much. We appreciate you

1948
01:42:21,479 --> 01:42:23,920
Speaker 3: watching us week after week. We're almost at a year

1949
01:42:24,000 --> 01:42:27,320
Speaker 3: of Counterpoints. We'll be excited to celebrate that in September.

1950
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:30,120
Speaker 3: Thanks everyone for tuning in. We appreciate it so much.

1951
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 4: Let's get a lad up